This is the meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by first Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for ELK. First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light dot com. F I R S T L I t E dot com. Joined today by
my neighbor but not Pottery Pat. Further down the road, Reverend doctor Shane Yates, CEO and co founder of Task Force Heroes, who, uh, send us his h upon our request. He's not bragging, send us his like military CV that goes on and on, Chilie, what's your take on that? He just, Shane says, just demonstrates that he's old.
Yeah, we were talking about you know how they change things like for an example, like uh, for a lot up until like from two thousand and one, like I believe, like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, somewhere in there, like they called it Operation Enduring Freedom, which means like the campaign in Afghanistan and then in sixteen or seventeen, they change it to Operation Resolute Support. So like it
just kind of signifies like things are constantly changing. So though I don't understand most of what it's on there, it's like I'm sure there's something similar that.
I could probably relate it to.
But like I look at it, I'm just like, yes, I would refer to him as stacked, soa which none's yeah.
Yeah, so when I when I.
Say st act, it's like you look at his like his his achievements and medals, and like your stack is like your your ribbons and medals, and so if you're stacked, you have a.
Lot of them.
Brown Star Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster, Combat Action Badge, I Raq Campaign Medal with two Brown Stars, Afghanistan Kane Pain Medal with two Brown Stars, NATO Service Medal, National. I could go on and on.
He loves he loves it. I don't like it, what.
I know, jumping out, but I'm not sorry at all.
Born and barn and codyak Alaska. Let me let's take this approach. Born and cordyak Alaska. Uh A long career in law enforcement.
Yeah, it was, actually I was born in that might change, Oh, sorry. I was born in Sino, Oh, California, but spent most of my life growing up in Kodyak got it.
And then longtime law enforcement in l A. P D. Eli cheff l a shrif and then it don't make us up with LAPD A sheriff Yeah yeah yeah, and then long long time in the US Army. Yeah yeah, I went in a little older. Uh.
And again I'm still in so I'm not here representing the army, but I went in after after law enforcement as a as a chaplain. Just kind of an interesting change. And and yeah, I've been doing that now for almost eighteen years.
In that up the Shane lives up the road for me, and well it not lives, but Shane's organization, Task Force Heroes, is based up the road for me on a on a property. And I just became aware of Shane and wanted to have him on the show because of he does really cool work, which we're going to get into. Shane hosts. You tell tell everybody what you tell everybody that. Yeah, I wanted to do it like an intro, but I'd rather just hear it from you.
Yeah. Yeah. So we bring up first responders and vets from all across the country. Uh, totally free. I mean guys and gals from various agencies. A lot of them been involved in some of the more major critical incidents that have gone on in the country. So we're blessed to do that. And then vets from all over the country as well, so police fire and either actively serving or veterans.
Give an example, some of the groups you might have up. I mean, as much as you're comfortable. Yeah, you've at various times told me about groups you had in and it could be like a collection of officers who've been involved in a specific incident or how much are you comfortable talking about.
Yeah, no, No, for instances, Yeah, we can talk a
little bit about that. So we get a ton of for whatever reason, probably just something like connections in LA, but we get a lot of LAPD guys, a lot of Metro Division you know, Tier one level, you know, SWAT canine guys up, a lot of We've had a lot of hunted beach pilots, hunting beach PD folks, Long Beach fire from some incidents that occurred there and unfortun in an incident in particular where where a captain was killed on a fire by a pistol by a guy
with the hang gun. And then you know, vets from all over the place and from multiple conflicts, mostly oif oef Iraq, Afghanistan stuff, a lot of pilots won, sixty of sore guys, just kind of all over all over the board.
And these guys come up and they fish. You gotta shoot bows. You get outside. And as Shane puts it, he put it to me, the technical term he put to me, we shower them and love.
Man. I mean, I think you know that. Here's here's the deal, right. The goal is to reach in and massage their hearts and love on them and meet them right where they are, not where we think they need to be, just just right where they are in their journey. And so we do fly fishing, right. We teach that, we do archery stuff. We used to do more mountain biking, but they seem to like the archery is probably their favorite.
So we set up a course three D targets all at kind of long course and then uh, and then get them out fishing. And then we don't want them just to just to go have fun. I mean that's a that's a part of it, right, kind of decompress, get out of the concrete jungles that they're working in or wherever they're at. We want them to take home something as well for their toolbox and and uh and so we teach resiliency skills kind of the five pillars.
We'll talk about spiritual resiency, whatever that looks like to them. You could also substitute the word resiliency for fitness, but spiritual resiliency, physical resiliency, emotional, social, family, mental, all those kind of all those kind of things too, So they learned something while they're there. And then we also give them a little shot of some leadership stuff. We talk about their core, their context, their capabilities, and courage. What's
real courage look like? You know, where where are you going to stand up? And and and let's look at the times where you should stood up for what was right? And so we cover all those contexts. Would be where you're currently at in your life, your marriage, family, work capabilities, What are those God given gifts and talents that you have that maybe you're not using. What are the things that rob you of your energy man and drain you? And what are the things that you can do that
give you energy. So obviously outdoors is one of those things.
We're gonna dive into that pretty deep and then talk about your own background. But you got to hang tight with us. For men, we're gonna talk about a couple of other things. Yeah we have. This is a lot of times guys right in with like really arcane fish and wildlife rule breaking questions. Okay, all right, and so we gotta do a little listener feedback here. You're ready for this one, So this guy says me, eat or crew. I have recently watched your episode titled the Future of Waterfowl.
The segment about how limits on waterfowl are decided remind me of a question I have had I have discussed with buddies while sitting in the blind. You're right for the Shane. I live in northern Kentucky, Alawn on the Ohio River. A lot of fishermen and hunters in this area purchase a Kentucky license as well as an Indiana license so that we can access the tributaries on both sides of the river. Most laws are pretty straightforward, but one area that is questionable are the limits for each state.
For example, as a Kentuckian, we are allowed three Canadian allowed three Canada geese during the late season. As a hoosier in the Southern Zone, you are allowed five Canada geese daily for the duration of the season. My questions are as follows. As a Kentucky resident that holds a license for both states hunting on water that is legal for both states, what is my legal limit during the late season? Does it depend on which ramp you launch off or which states wildlife officer checks you?
Can?
I shoot a limit for both states. It's funny took it to a game warden, you did, Huh? I took it to a game warden.
Well, yeah, it's funny though that he says that he purposely hasn't taken it to a game ward because he just loves talking about it and just wondering about it and riding into meat eater about it.
Yep.
It's like when I may go to the game warden. When I would send a question to a game warder, a game warden, it's like, uh, you know, well, let's say a fella, you know, just maybe.
Happened before you give me answer. Can I take a stab?
Yeah?
I don't have.
I have how a game warden, I asked a retired game recently retired game warden how a key were to handle it, and he gave me a couple of things to think about.
Yeah, because they'll always tell you that it's up to their interpretation, right, But I would think I would feel like I would have a very strong case no matter which state I launched in, if I had the correct hunting license and he has both. If I went to the state where you could shoot more geese and I shot more geese there, not in the state where you could only shoot three, but where you could shoot five, which was in Indiana, and I shot five geese, and
I came back to Kentucky. I was just over there hunting as a non resident hunter. As long as you could prove where you were and where you shot your five geese, it shouldn't be a problem. And it's a definite no on the question whether you can shoot two limits.
Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna give I'm gonna offer and this I'm going to offer a couple little just a little color from different areas before I tell you what the game wardens said. He didn't say anything like you know, like like stunning, but like, let me give you a couple things to consider we might have discussed this in the original conversation. But like, for instance, take the Delaware River, which for a while along its course it forms the
border between New York and Pennsylvania. They created a a sort of unified zone so that you didn't have New York law in that river, contradicting Pennsylvania law and that river, the two states come together and come up with a river bag limit. You can fish the entire river with either state's license, but then the river has a bag limit that sits aside. Like let's say New York is like six bassa day. Pennsylvania. I'm just pulling these numbers out.
They're not real. Pennsylvania has four bassa day. And so instead of some guys saying, well do I get six or four, they go and say it in the river and that river we're gonna come together and say it's five in that river. That's one way to handle it. Another example that's totally different is if you go to the Saint Mary's River, which forms the border between the United States and Canada, particularly Michigan and Ontario. You have to like know in that river channel the international boundary
runs up the river. You're obligated to know where you are. You're obligated to know like this line you can't see, it's your responsibility to know that you didn't drift five feet over into the US while fishing. Sure, and that's that's how they look at it. I had one more example. I thought it was kind of interesting about how they do all this. Well, here's what the warden said. The warden said, I'd be asking you. I'd be looking at two questions. Where were you what? Oh? No, one more color? More,
one more bit of color. In Alaska, they do an interesting thing with this where it kind of pertains. Let's say that you have one air and you're lowed three black tail deer per year, and you have another area and you're allowed one black tail deer per year throughout the season. You can't hunt a place where you are over that place's bag limit, regardless of where you got them.
Oh, collectively, So if you're in the three limit and you shoot one, you can't go hunt in the one limit.
So so let's say like, let's say you are go down to the you go down to Sitka and you kill a black You kill a black tail, and then you go to your home and your home is a one bag limit. You're out in your home, you couldn't be like, well, I got my one there where it's three. It's like your possession limit follows you to wherever you go. So the warden that I brought this question to said, I would be looking at where were you when you
shot him? Obviously, but then I would also be wondering I would be looking at too, is besides that where were you when you possessed them? So your thing of that you cross the channel and kill, you cross the channel in a place and kill five where you're allowed five. But then you're pulling out, you're still got your shotgun with you, and you're still look to be hunting, and you're and you're pulling your boat out in a three zone.
He would feel that you were over your possession in the field, and it'd be like, well, I understand you got him over there, but here you're hunting and you're over your possession. And that's how that's his take on it.
I feel like that's reading the rules in a way where you're, uh, you're trying to be like the most fair, like you're not trying to like advantage yourself in a little you know, like I think that's the right way. So I think that our our listener probably like deep inside his heart knows what the answer really is.
So there. Yeah, and maybe the warden, like the warden's in a position where is he really got to go figure out where you were standing when you shot all these He's just like, dude, you're like, oh, in your boat hunting, you got your gun, you got five geese, you're here, Like you're here, you're over your limits.
Yeah.
I also feel like it's a pretty pretty easy question to answer because I can I guarantee that he's not the first person along that river that has ever had that question and or maybe or not done that. No, so just called your f WP your game warden and ask him because I'm sure they've dealt with it before. So it's like I feel like he went out of his way to email us. What he could have just called the WP office and figured it out.
Well, No, I think emailed because this is my favorite It's my favorite subject in the world, right, but like like just like weird game laws but.
No, no, no, totally.
What I'm saying is like he emailed with not knowing if he could get a response from you, but he could have certainly got a response from guaranteed response from.
Yeah, but he's also contributing to our intent.
I'm thank you very much, spite Chili. Spite Chili thinking that you like screwed up and yeah, man, come on, dude, good question. This next one we're gonna go to. We're gonna go to reverend, We're gonna go to our past. All right, here we go, because this is a this is an ethics one. Now, you got law enforcement background, so you could have definitely wighed in on law enforcement. We're going to bring an ethics.
One to you, all right.
We do a thing called We have a colleague called Chester, and Chester's the nicest, most fair guy in the world. So a lot of times we'll bring etiquette questions and we call hi, Chatticutt, and we'll bring him to Chester, who usually waffles. He's just like, well, you know, I can see both sides, you know. But here's an ethics one for you. All right, Hello, crew, you ready you're following chain.
I'm following, Hello crew.
I hunt rural South Carolina and my father in law's property, which is mostly open row crop fields with a few blocks of wood between fields you picture in it. My father in law in the late two thousands bought the land from his father in law. This sounds like a right thing for I haven't read this yet. This sounds like there might be a divorce brewing somewhere in this email.
I don't think that fact is actually important to.
The It doesn't wind up being about divorce. Okay, So just a little background. Father in law bought it from father in law. There's a guy that has half a dozen stands scattered across the property. It's roughly eight hundred acres. He also loans his spots out to his friends to hunt as they please. This guy theorizes that this individual is charging these people to hunt and has turned this
land into a hunting club. My father in law has zero interest in hunting, so this is not really an issue for him, but it is for my wife, his daughter, and her brother, along with myself. So just to help people at home understand, the patriarch who actually owns the land doesn't care what this guy does. His children care.
And this guy has no affiliation with the family other than he used to have access with the previous owner, father in law of his father in law.
So let me continue on. He the patriarch does not want to complete kicked the guy off the land because he had permission to hunt there before my father in law acquired the property, so he feels that he should be allowed a couple stands, but only the one guy, not his buddies. Lots of feelings, lots However, the guy has never actually asked my father in law for hunting permission since he has been the landowner for seventeen years.
I confronted the guy and drew on the map the one field about eighty five acres that me, along with my wife and brother in law were okay with him and only him hunting. He was not a fan of my suggestion and responded that he was gonna hunt the whole road, which is about four hundred acres. How can I handle this for the twenty twenty five deer hunting season.
My wife is leaning towards calling the game warden. This guy points out, I don't know this will do much good because my father in law is not the guy kind of guy to press trespassing charges. Meanwhile, the brother in law wants to tear down the hunting stands. What's the cleanest way to avoid any larger issues, if there are any, it's pretty obvious.
Its pretty dark.
I think pop has got the last. Yeah, I mean that's about mine. He's barking up the wrong tree.
He wrote the email to the wrong people.
Yeah, he's yeah, I'm sorry, man. That's that's a that's an ethical that's a good one. I wish I had easy ones like that all the time. Yeah.
It sounds like you gotta go talk to dad.
And if dad's cool with it, then there. I mean, that's it.
But isn't there like like if he got permission from you know, two owners ago, he.
Would he would he's got his own problem.
Well yeah, but he would also need to get permission again or every time, like under new ownership.
Not a well not according to that guy, he has a task that he enjoys, a tacit permission from the father in law. Whatever's going on between the guy and the father in law. If the owner of the property, it's like, I don't want to mess with the guy. That's his call. Yeah, I got we got a funny story that's similarly similar to this where I probably I'm sure I've told this, but I'll tell it.
Uh.
A friend of mine had a friend of mine from school had a Her family owned some properties in California. I'm talking to her dad and her dad's like, yeah, you guys can hunt turkeys. He says, no one's ever hunting turkeys except for it. It was like, I'm not exaggering. Twenty years ago, twenty years prior, he had been trying to put in a water system he had. He had a pond, and he was trying to put in a
wildfire water system of his own. So some guys from the local fire department came out and consulted with him about how to go about putting in his own pump system so that he could fight fire if his house was gonna catch on fire.
Uh.
And as a thank you, he extended a permission to one of these firefighters to hunt turkeys. He's telling me, no one's hunted it since that guy when I put the pumpin. While we're hunting. While we're hunting, we run into a guy and here's a guy hunting the place, and I'm and I you know, it's you always feel funny because like you're have permission too, but you can't. You got to like ask like, hey, what what's you know my understanding from the landowners. No one's hunting, but
here's a guy hunting. So I'm like, hey, what what's up. Oh, yeah, you know, Glenn gave you permission. I'm a I'm a firefighter. No, you talk to Glenn lately. No, how is Glenn doing right? Hecks? This guy hadn't been hunting for twenty years off that permission.
Yeah, I mean, I mean the right obviously. The right thing to do is you got you gotta be checking in, man, if you're hunting, some check in once in a while. Man, I mean, that's that's a no go. I mean that's like, Yeah, I talked to him when was last like, yo, it was back in nineteen seventy four, gave that's a bad deal.
I think it's rampant though. Like we just I had a little bit of a wind fall with another property in Wisconsin that we just gained access to, and I've been kind of giddy about it. Then I started thinking about it. I'm like, you know, if everything's right according to these older Latvian gals that no one's been hunting this place for some time, it mean, and they haven't been there in years, and their kids don't have anything to do with it. Someone else is probably treating it
as their hunting spot. Sure, like I will not be surprised when I go there this spring to find tree stance, maybe a camera, maybe some tire tracks.
I think, yeah, it's the guarantee.
It's the old uh you know, better ask for forgiveness than permission attitude.
When we were little. Uh. It's stunning now to drive around where I live with with on X because we're little, if public meant you hadn't been yelled at there yet, and now to be like, oh my god, that's like a guy's place. I never really thought about what that place was. We just called it the woods.
I'm surprised that isn't that people really don't check in more? And that's so common because you know you could get in real big trouble for trespassing, So don't you want to be I just feel like the excuse of you know, someone seventeen years ago gave me permission doesn't hold like the one consonant. Life has change, so you know, you don't want.
To say real big trouble though, And it's just it's there, isn't the real big trouble. I mean, it's going to be a slap on the hand. It's like driving your ATV places you're not supposed to drive it on these public lands. People do it because what are they going to do. There's a couple hundred dollars fine, They're like, oh, I'd pay a thousand bucks and drive my Yeah exactly.
Maybe they should. Maybe we should. Someone should think about changing the law because that's no.
I don't know, criann more rules and regulations around these parts.
People don't like that.
Shane.
You ready, Okay?
Why'd you guys go to Kodiak? You were born? Where were you born?
I was born in California, Southern California. How old I I'm going to fifty seven? How long you been married? Yeah, he's asked me these tough ones. My wife's gonna listen to this and make sure I get this right. I was married ninety two, so, uh what is that? I don't years?
Yeah, thirty thirty three year gratulations.
Yeah, yeah, she put up with me.
Yeah, that's the only wife.
Rising, it's my only wife.
Uh so why why Kodiak?
So?
My dad did contracts, some military contracts, was a builder, painter, did a lot of that. So, and and he had a buddy from uh, Vietnam. It was up there crab fishing. So he started doing construction stuff and then then he went crab fishing stuff.
Yeah huh. And you were brought up around that. Yeah, had you finished? Had your dad been military he was in Vietnam? Yeah, yeah, yeah, talk about I've lost track of what it is. But but lay out your family, like you guys are a family of service man. Yeah, walk through that a little bit. It's kind of like when you're telling me it before I was like, I couldn't even follow all the people from your lineage.
Yeah, so I'm not sure where you want me to start. But uh, grandparents served, you know, grandfather's, my dad served, I served. My three sons are serving, uh, two in the military, one in law enforcement, and then my daughter's in law enforcement, one of my girls. And then my other daughter. Ah, she's got two kids and she she's the only one that's not not serving. But she's she's low on the list for a fire department, so that's what she's gonna do.
So that was a little bit baked in by your dad or no, Like he wasn't bitter about Vietnam.
He didn't talk about Vietnam a lot. Man. I love my pops man. But he was always happy, right, like, always a happy guy, good mood, never cranky, never grumpy. Wouldn't really get too much into into Vietnam, but but uh, I just kind of watched him and in the little bits he would say just kind of always stood out, you know, to me as hugely important. He'd always talked about his buddies over there and different things like that.
And he was a former law enforcement guy, so he started with California High Patrol way back in the day. So I watched that service a lot, and uh, yeah, that was kind of my my, my motivator, even even in high school, even a lot of Scott. I think I was only one of my buddies, and I'm tight with all my buddies from up there. Just a small town, right, you grow up island, right, I mean there's one stoplight.
When I was growing up, we were excited to get a McDonald's and where I think in eighth grade or something. But I think I'm the only one that went into you know, military law enforcement type stuff. Out of that crew, yeah, out of that crew.
And what was the first movie you made in that direction?
Uh? What do you mean, what year do we go there?
No?
No, I'm sorry. When you were when you were young you got in law enforcement?
Yeah, really young. So I left Alaska and I don't know eighty seven, but i'd go back up and fish. So the last place I fish was Bristol Bay Commercial gil Netty. You, Yeah, fish there. I fished kind of all over Alaska commercial fishing, salmon, harry and halibut openings, and then uh, and then after that went to school for a little while at Boise, stayed not long, and
then and then went to went to La. I kind of wanted to see the action and and where it was kind of all happening, and I certainly got that. But yeah, got hired hired there in eighty eight.
So what year? What year in La was the it was later the Rodney King incident and all that.
Yeah, I was there for that.
Ye did you specifically want to go there because of family ties into California just because you thought that was a place you were gonna.
Well, it was, I mean it was. It's the largest sheriff's apartment, I believe, in the in the country, and it just advanced and I kind of wanted to see the inner city and and kind of go for the top, you know, toughest place. And uh, I was young and no responsibility at the time, so I went there and I was actually on Normandy when when the riots jumped off. Well, you know that Danny was getting kind of whooped up
pretty good, just up at Florence and Normany. So I was just south on Normandy, south of Imperial, so we were fairly close. We didn't know he was up there getting whooped up on I was just handling the call guy get his car shot up this little housing project,
and partner was down at the car. I was just getting the info and all of a sudden, doors started swinging open, and you know, certain things were being said to us, and so I just started jumping steps by every three or four steps you're back to the car. And immediately the riots just jumped off. So we were going south on Normy and the streets were flooding, and I mean it was like immediate. That's what was kind of wild to see just the immediate reaction of chaos.
And I remember looking back and seeing just people in the streets, stores getting looted, and we were called back to the station to kind of gear up, and that's what we did. We geared up and they just said, do what you can do. Try to roll two cars deep, and so that's what we did for the next couple of days. So, yeah, it was different.
Now it's just in your first few years of that.
Yeah. Yeah, I had worked custody, you know, with the sheriffs. You got to work in the jails first, so that's kind of an experience. Yeah, I worked up at a super max facility and that's that's an interesting environment. You can kind of learn the streets a little bit from being in there, you know, talking to inmates and whatnot. But yeah, yeah, then you get you know, you put in your dream list or your wish list for I
think back then it was six choices. So my first choice was to go down to South Central and work, and I got my first choice. So you can kind of watch your numbers as you get lower and lower to when you're going to go out. I did twenty eight months in the jail and then and then got to sign there. So then you go to patrol school and then you'll get your station and your trainee. For a while. That was an experience. I don't know how it is now, but it was humbling.
Yeah, what was it like absorbing all that, you know, absorbing that hatred of cops at that time in l A.
Yeah, man, you know, I guess it's it was. It's a little bit hard to understand. I mean when you roll into an area where you know it's it's painted, you know, spray painted certain words against the five oh or you know that kind of stuff. It was different from a kid that grew up in a tiny town.
You know.
That that that first night on patrol was it was wild. Uh, as a trainee, as a new new person. My f t O wasn there that night, so wrote to the different guy and and so back then it was you know, training was was hard and you're the new person, so you just keep your mouth shutting and.
Do your work.
And uh, but yeah, it was it was different. You know, I don't think it really affected me. I mean, you just do your job, just do your thing, support the community as best you can, support your your fellow fellow deputies. But it was definitely a different environment from what I had grown up in for sure.
How do you how do you look at like if you if you look at the LA riots at that time, just it for for younger people don't remember this. There was an incident where it's like, if someone really wants to dig in on this made the documentary if you've seen it made in America that covers the l A Riots really care, it winds up being it's this very long ESPN thing about O. J. Simpson, but it spends a ton of time on the LA Riots. But right, so, a bunch of officers pull over a guy, Rodney King.
He resisted to rest somewhat, they beat snot out of him. They got equated as that how it goes. Yeah, and then all hell broke lose, right yeah. Uh they chased him for for a long time. Yeah, yeah, somebody got on video.
That's right.
Yeah, back, this is back when everything wasn't on video.
Yeah, no, it was novel. It certainly was after that.
Yeah. Uh, how's that like? When something like that happens? For what?
What?
What's your attitude toward those officers? I mean, do you do you stay like, do you stay where you're going? You think yourself, well, I understand where they're coming from, I understand where they got pushed to. Or do you look at something like that when you're a policeman and you look at something like that and you'd be like, man, you guys should have known better, Like, like, how do you handle it? Internally?
I think I think one of the biggest things is is you never know what's gone on prior to this, right, or or what the call was or or what's happening. I'm certainly not I'm certainly not justifying that the amount of force as used. I wouldn't there, you know, I don't.
I don't know other than what I saw, But there there's always many details and conversations and things said and things done by the suspect as well as the as the cop that I think that that plays a huge role in all that you know, and and it's easy to you know, again, not that situation, but other situations. You know, you can see on TV and you can watch it, but who knows what happened prior to that, or what he was wanted for, or what his actions were, what he said, or what the witness said or all
that stuff. Yeah, is a huge piece of the story.
Yeah, And in those cases, that's the thing I always wind up thinking. I always wind up looking and him like, man, I would have to have like a documentary about what went on that day before I can really start putting together who did Right now that you see stuff and you're like it seems egregious, but then you're like, I don't know what the hell happened? Man?
Right?
Like, right, you know, I don't know the background, right? And why why is it being hard to weigh in on it?
You know?
Right?
People are sure quick to right, But I always feel a little reluctant.
Right, yeah. I mean and in the every you know, encounter with someone you don't know who you're encountering. I don't know what they knew about him or his background. I mean I've heard things, uh, but you know, all those things play a play a role. What was he
wanted for? What was the crime committed? But again, I mean you do have to kind of kind of chill, right, Yeah, I mean you got to you gotta get to a point where you can you can function and take care of business without getting too caught up in the in the scenario. Yeah, I mean, that's that's my thought. But again, I wo wasn't there different department, So I don't, I don't. I don't judge any anything any anything going on there too much. I mean, it didn't look great right on film.
It just it obviously didn't. So but not be there all I'll hold I'll hold my my judgment.
So how long did you stay with LA Sheriff?
So I was there from eighty eight to ninety six or so, and then transferred up to Washington State. I just didn't want to raise my kids down there anymore. You know, it's it's getting rough. It's getting rough. When I lived in a town and forgive me all you people from Palm Dell, Lancaster, but I was living ninety miles one way from from the station to my house. So you know, when you got court every day you
got I was wearing graveyard most of the time. You're getting off in the morning, and then you got court, you're not coming home, you're sleeping in the bunk room. Then you're driving eighty nine miles home or you know, whatever you decided to do.
That was a lot.
And then when you're starting to get gangsters roll up in your in your driveway trying to oki dook the police. What I mean by oki dok is trying to know ack them or you know, not acknowledge them. Maybe they they're trying to pretend like they live at your house and you're getting woke up by someone trying to open your door and uh, and the deputies are hopper suit behind him or containments in your yard. It's probably time
to hold And that happened randomly? Or does that happened to me three times?
But they're not because you were a pot because you were a sheriff. It was just a coincidence.
WHOA yeah, Then a different world. I mean at the station I work, we averaged about sixty six homicides a year. So it's a different environment, man, just different. But when that started happening, I mean, I I'd get message on my MDT, oh hey we got to containment. Guy just jumped your fence in your backyard and my wife's home with little kids. Nothing to do with you being a cop, nothing to do with it. He just happened to pull his caper somewhere close right, I mean, And that was
his route that he that he took. So it wasn't the greatest area to live in, So I couldn't afford to live in some of the other other spots on a on a single incommon and so it was time. It was time a great apartment, great people, some of the best, my opinion, some of the best street cops. They're in this country, probably the world, you know, work there.
What makes a good street cop, I think a guy that can communicate well, right, A guy that can I think also empathize, have compassion, but also be direct and can communicate, can kind of relate and communicate well with with the people in the community. Uh, you know, and that's I think those are those are huge. And I think there's also kind of a sixth sense, right, like you know, being able to see and watch and learn and pay attention to the small details and listen to
the small details. And then time in the in the radio car, right, I mean you just you got to put in your time. And uh yeah, I think those are some.
Of the some of the factors did things chill out When he went to Washington State.
It was different. Yeah, it was different, a lot different. Cheaper live, you know, great department, great people, but yeah, police work done different, some of the laws are a little different. Uh you know, the environment's different, right, No, southwest Washington, Yeah, closer to Portland, so the whole environment's different.
Was there like a big like mental shift from like working down in l A to like working up just like do your like combat mindset change and.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I'm on a podcast, man, so I gotta watch what I said and have talked about this, right, what are we going to talk about it? Now we're sitting out of my place. I'd be telling you straight, huge mental shift, right, because you know, if you're working a known gang area, no narcotics area, there's there's things that are justifiable by the law that you can do in certain areas. Now I'm talking way back in the nineties. I don't know how it is now,
so so forgive me. But you know you've made my ultiple rests at this location. You know there's no drug dealers in the area. There's all of these things that you can articulate that can help you deal with bad guys. Right, you don't you don't have that. Now you're in a you're in a town of where there's very few gangs, at least at the time. Drugs are everywhere, so so
those are those are around. But yeah, you have to just your you have to slow down your role and you have to calm down, right, That's how i'd say, And I and I got told that.
So, yeah, just a side question. When you were when you went from Alaska to California and then to Washington, did you pursue your outdoor activities as a you know, kind of release, release from what you were doing to have time to do that.
Washington's great for I mean they got some good hunting there. Grouse of elkhonta there, deer hunt, all those things. I liked hunting grouse. That was fun. I mean, it wasn't Kodiak where when I think when I when I got there, I was really young, so I didn't start hunting right away. But before I moved there, i'd lived for a short time in Idaho, so you know, I started hunting with
my dad. When I could hold he would tell me, when you're tall enough to hold on the belt loop with your finger of my belt area on my jeans, you can come with me. So I was like, all right, pop. So so I finally got to that point. It didn't take long because I'm pretty taller guy, right, So I'd hold onto the belt loop en roll with him. I had this old US Army canvas backpack and uh, and I'd have the lunches in there and a b begun and be rolling around, and for years the story about
a b begun. I thought I actually killed this chucker one time with this BB gun, and I thought I'd heard my dad shoot too. But I was pretty young, and I got this thing with my BB gun. It's like forty yards away or something. My Dad's like, oh yeah, you smoked it. Great. For years, I believed I made this crazy shot. But as I got older, I realized he shot that doug thing. Let me think, all these years I shot that chucker. Yeah, I think staying involved
in in in outdoor stuff. California's mostly quail. I dear hunted a little bit, a lot of bird huntings, just a little more accessible in time. You know, I'm so busy down there.
Did you Did you ever come across roller pigeons? No that.
I know a lot of animals too.
I mean like it's street like, you know dudes that are into street pigeons.
Oh right, but ye whole I got you.
We were introduced. It's like pigeon fanciers Tyson Mike Tyson.
Oh yeah, okay, yeah I didn't see I saw a pigeons in the city, but uh not.
These are dudes that keep pet pigeons.
Yeah, pigeons, chickens. He'll be on calls and in the inner city and chickens and will fighting chickens. Yeah yeah, yeah, running all over the place. The other crazy thing about being down there, which was I always thought this was odd, And some guys that are listening to this that work down there can relate. But when I get together with the LAPD Southeast guys or some of these guys, we
have some fun or seventy seventh division. But they have these dogs, man, and I don't I don't know a better term, so I hope this doesn't come off crazy. But like we just call them ghetto dogs, like inner city dogs, and they're just wild. But they know the city, like like I've literally washed a dog. Go up to a major street, look both ways and cross like they just know and they're out. They're all over the place.
Yeah, it's wild. Or you'll see a.
Homeless guy, which you know, obviously I feel, you know, I've got a hard for some of the homeless. But cruising down with a shopping cart and about eight dogs by him, huh, But they're season. There's season, vets man. These dogs, I'm telling you, they just they know the city. They know, gunshots, I'm out, like I'm going, I'm going, it's just just wild. This is just wild. Different world, man, different world.
So walk me through how you went from police work into the military and then how'd you become how'd you become a reverend?
Yeah, that's a wild one.
Man.
I had to really saw. I had to soften up. Moving to Washington helped me help me kind of soften and I glory to the Lord man. That's uh, I'll just be bold about that. I had to I had to slow down, soften up, and uh it was good for me, yes, personally and family wise. But towards the end of my career, I knew I wanted to be done. As I got close to twenty, I want to be done. And politics and garbage that goes on at some of these agencies, and it's still happening.
My heart.
I hear it all the time from guys. It's it's unfortunate for these these uh officers and that are out there just grinding, you know, working holidays, facing the stuff they face, especially the last you know, four years, just the stuff they're having to deal with. But yeah, guy hands me a book and uh, it's called A Table in My Presence written by Kerry Cash.
It's about a marine, A table in my presence, A table in thy presence.
Right, it comes from a psalm and uh, navy chaplain a sign of the Marines first push into Iraq. And he just talks about his ministry to these these military folks and the dangers they faced, and and seeing some of the miracles that that God did over there. And uh, and we can we could talk a lot about some of some of the stuff. I'm sure we'll get to that. But it was amazing to me. And I was being
pulled in that direction. I was in seminary, working on a graduate degree and just doing stuff in the church and a lot of youth stuff. And man, it was just it was an amazing book. And uh and and and he give it. He gives it to me. He says, hey, man, I know you're thinking about going into a full time ministry at some point. He goes, this might be a good fit with your background. You know, you kind of
have this sort of sort of tactical side. Again, any guys have done more than me and gotten more awards and all that. It's it's not about that. It just his point was this might be a good fit in this that environment. And of course it was the height of Iraq, A lot of stuff was going on, and I thought, yeah, I don't know, maybe maybe so am I being called there? Right?
Like?
Do I have this this internal burning desire to go serve in that environment? Well, I'm going to be separated from my family right five kids, I'll be separated. Wife won't be there at that point. Initially they were like eighteen months with the Army of deployment with the two weeks of R and R. Then I went to twelve with two weeks. Then it went to twelve three at the mod platform nine in theater with no rn R.
So that was kind of the cycle. So you've got to be, you know, mentally tough against not it's not me, it's it's I think the Lord preparing you, preparing your family, preparing your wife and kids for that separation, and and and so I took it to her, and I don't know the timeframe, a month or so after I've read the book, and I said, hey, what do you think about this as we're you know, getting close here and and and she said, no, no way, like you're going
to be gone, and I'm like, well, just you know, pray about it and see. And so then about two weeks later, I remember coming home with my motor and we rode motorcycles here around up there, police police motors in the rain and the whole deal. And I'd usually go up and get warm, take a bath or something, you know, to heat up, and h and I went upstairs in the bathroom. This is a true story, and
she's up there in tears, and I'm like, what's going on? Yeah, you guys, you give me emotional and she said this, she said, Hey, if God wants you and a downrange environment or wherever he's calling you to, he's got us here and we stand behind you and I support it. And then that shocked me, you know, kind of rocked kind of rocked my world a little bit. And uh, yeah. Then they didn't make it easy. You know, you've got to have all this stuff to to go in as
a chaplain right to serve in that way. You've got to be endorsed by a department of a Department of Defense endorsing body. You've got to have so much ministry experience, you've got to be ordained, you've got to have your MDV. You've got to you know, past your secret clearances, you've got to be in physically fit, your medical stuff, you know, all of those things. And and then you got to get through base Officer Leader course, which is at Jackson,
South Carolina. So you've got a lot of that going on. So I remember going to Maps and I had had a back surgery. I had hurt my back doing some jiu jitsu stuff and h yeah, and I was trying to shrimp this guy off of me and blew a disc so because I was tired of him pounding on me and anyway, blew the disc out. That's a whole nother story. But I had to get a waiver. So
I remember going to Maps. I'm like the old guy in there, right, like most Chappins are a little older because you got to go through all the school and you got to do all these things. But yeah, I'm the older guy in maps, in minder where I won't run around in maps with all these young eighteen nineteen year old guys doing all this stuff, you know, duck walk and all these different things. And and I get to the end and everything went well, and he goes, he goes, hey, you gotta get a waiver. I can't
pass you. And I'm like, I remember looking at this guy, super nice guy. I think he was about ninety nine years old, but super nice guy. And and he goes a guy. I'm like what, And I said, hey, man, I just said, you don't understand, Sir. I said, God's called.
Me to do this.
I need to and he kind of looked puzzled, and I don't you know, you got to get a waiver. So eventually I got the waiver and then deployed pretty quick after that. I went to a calve squadron, Calvary's unit. A lot of cool traditions in the calve, and I was over there. And the funny story, it's not funny, but cool. Part of the story is I went over there and my son, in the meantime, had joined right out of high school and he was also in the same calve. He was in Charlie Troop and we're both
in Baghdad together for that whole time. So that was a little that was a little wild.
But how together.
Yeah, same squadron. He was housed a little ways away from me, not far. I was on Camp Liberty and he was down more on the south kind of the Victory Complex. The whole thing is Victory Complex. But I don't know if Chili's been over there, but.
He was.
If I took a little I don't want to. I gotta be careful how I say some of these terms here on a podcast, But they gives these little vehicles to drive, right what the locals would drive, you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, and uh so we called him, we had a certain name for him, but uh, it would take me maybe thirty minutes to get over there, not too long to get to where he was. So yeah, that was that was wild, wasn't it?
Was it easy? Like I'm sure it wasn't.
It's probably a rhetorical question, but like separating, you know, being a father in a combat environment, like having your son like they're like and knowing probably being pretty well informed about like what's going on, like what your son's going through like versus like what you're going through, Like.
How is that like experience?
Like yeah, yeah, it was, Uh it was different because you know, so so I was. So it's we use the term squadron in the cab, right, so in an infantry would be a battalion, right, And so you're the only chaplain though, for that whole battalion or squadron. So on that deployment, we had about six hundred and something soldiers. We weren't totally organic too, we weren't all calve. We had a group from Nebraska to helped supplement us and some other folks. So you're the only chaplin for six
hundred folks. But you know you got to care for all of them, right that that's the sheep that God has said. Hey, here's the deal, Shade, I got this. This s ain't about you. It's not your deal, which I had to learn the hard way after we lost a couple of guys right away. But you know this is about my plan. You just go take care of them.
You just go love on them, take care of your staff, your commander, you know, advise them, do your religious area analysis on on you know what what is as soon as it Shia and you work a little bit with the S two on some of that stuff. How do we deal with karans? Where's the Muslim burial ground? You know, you kind I can work through that part of it. Advising the commander on the moral and ethical ramifications for decisions.
He's gonna make or she's gonna make in that in in your in your ao, right, So you have that responsibility. But you also have a three pong responsibility, which is honor the dead, care for the wounded, and nurture of the living. So you've got that and or in the trust. Right, we got six hundred soldiers. The worst the worst thing I can hear when I go to when I would go back then when I was just the first attendant a captain is they get to a unit and you, hey,
who is you know, I'm the new chaplain. Who was your chaplain before they go I don't know. Okay, that's the wrong answer or I don't really see him or her wrong answer, right, So that means you don't as a chaplain. I was probably because of my pride, my background, and just just the different way I thought it. The best way to operate was be with them, right, take the similar risks, be with them. Get your butt out of your office. Don't need to read books all day, right.
I know you got cubs and bubs and update briefs and counselings and sometimes memorials and caring for the wounded. You got all that, but you need to be out with the soldiers and that that's the place to be. And I was willing to take a take some asscheans to do that because you know, they lose you, and I mean, you're a great target, right, it's a great target for the enemy to take out the chaplain. He's the kind of the spiritual even though it's not you
necessarily leading, it's it's God doing the work. But they see you as the spiritual leader. And you're you don't have a gun, right, so you're going on all these missions. You got an assistant, it's an actual mos that goes with you. Religious fair specialists they call him now. Back then it was chaplin assistants. So they're an enlisted person
that's that's armed, that stays with you. But you know, you've you've got to cross on your uniform, you've got a no gun, you got all the gear, you're soldier, right, you're soldier first. But that's a that's a good target. Take take him out, you know, especially.
Where come from?
Where's the decision to not be armed?
And need a convention thing? And it's been around a long term. I think Vietnam was I think the last and I could be wrong here, but I think the last war were they they gave you know, medics and
chaplains guns. So yeah, no no weapon. So but that's where you're in the trust, right, Be with the Be with your folks, because if they don't know you and they don't trust you, they're not gonna come walking in your office and and and tell you what's bugging them, or get the counts in the need or hey, you know, back home, my wife's leaving me because I've been gone and she's cheating on with so and so and so, or I messing around with this person, or you know,
whatever is going on in their life, or I got side ideations or you know, any of those things. You got to earn the trust, man, and the only way to do that is to get down in the trenches with them.
And so yeah, that's pretty common.
You know, in the eight years I spent, like I don't I don't remember a single chaplain's name, And but they would show up, like they would show up, like when we had like suicides and like when we were in country and like you know, injuries, and then they treated it like a like a check in the box. Like it's more like, hey, you know, your commander asked me to come down here and talk to you guys.
It's just like you're the last person I want to talk to you, like just because I don't know you right, And I just find that like so like my I wouldn't say my experience with chaplains I have been negative, but I just it was I didn't know anything.
Right or non existent right. And that's the and we listen, we got many many good ones out there, many great ones totally. But you know, to me, you want to earn your your bones or your stripes or whatever you want to call it, then you need to get out of your off us and get out on missions with them and spend time with them. And uh yeah, that's that's even if even if you know, sometimes the commander would be I had some great commanders. One of them's you know, still in is a two star now and
just an awesome individual. Use an O five at the time, and uh, you know, I'd take a I'd take a whipping from it from time to time, especially if you got if I got stuck in Mama Dio or you know, fall loos or something because of the red air, you know, and he's like, hey, you need to get back here. I'm like, I'm stuck. You know, I can't. I can't a convoy ain't ain't rolling. But that that's where you're in your trust. And then then all of a sudden,
you're in your offices. You keep going, uh as, you're going on your in your in your tour, and you get there in the morning and you you needn't sleep much. I mean, I'd be up till midnight one and then you're up at four or whatever. But go to your your update briefs and you know, go to your your sinks and stuff like that. Then you get to your office and there's eight people lined up outside your door. You know, that's when you know, Okay, it's starting to work.
The trust is coming right now. What will those eight people be there for? Oh, a variety of things. Some suicidal ideations, some my girlfriend's breaking up with me, some divorce, some grandpa's sick, mom sick, you know, the similar things that you'd see here, but it just gets heightened, it gets intense, intensified being over there. Sometimes it could be they'd lost, you know, a friend, you had a ka
and they want to work through that. We have special things we do for that similar to what we do up here, which are like a TAMES event or traumatic event management event, where we ask certain questions, give everybody a chance to kind of talk through what they saw or how they feel. It's not I don't run them like a big, warm, fuzzy Kumbaya thing, but it's a good time to sit down and just let some stuff out. You don't have to talk if you don't want to.
We used to calm critical incident debriefs. So yeah, it could be a variety of variety of things, chain of command issues, you know, what, what whatever? I dealt with so many, I mean hundreds and hundreds of counseling sessions on on both deployments. But my first one, that that one had, that one had a lot, a lot of stress.
You know, did you go into that work knowing that that I guess not knowing, but had it already? Was it already common knowledge at that time that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan we're going to spin off this generation of of soldiers with like extraordinarily high suicide rates.
Was that?
Was that? Has that always been true of war? I think it's gotten worse.
You know, there there was a lot when I was when I was in on my first first deployment, and then when I went on active duty up at Joint Base Lewis McCord, similar, similar, It was just seemed to kind of continue to get increase. I mean, we're a war a long time, you know, And I think that contributed to it.
Like what what what do you feel?
Is?
Like?
What is going on?
Oh man? Uh? Yeah? Again, you know, Chilli and I could have this conversation and and and all of us off off my care, but uh, I think there is some generational things that could be going on. I know, we do seem to have quite a few that are currently happening. And again I'm just speaking up from my own personal opinion. I'm not speaking on behalf of the army at all here, but from what I see in my lane, we we do get quite a few that
are not related to combat experience. And that's a puzzling factor. Is it Is it contributing factors that they had prior.
To joining the military.
Is it just the inability with some of the newer generation to cope with stress us and cope with embracing the suck factors?
You know? Is it?
Is it some of that, and I don't think we've really put our finger on it. The definitely, uh, you know a lot of the combat related stuff because you think about this. Man, here, here's here's the way to look at it. So I remember coming home on I was on leave for my first I think it was my first one. And I was at a Starbucks and in the US, in the US, so I'm home for
like two weeks. I go into Starbucks and I had just seen you know, all this different, all this all these all this stuff, lost a couple of guys and and uh wounded, you know, kids eating trash, just different environments, third world stuff. Well, you're in a Starbucks and the lady in front of me is blocking the line and complaining about her caramel on her latte, right, and you're kind of gone, and and and Chile. I'm sure you're kind of get in your mind. Okay, is this this
is really happening? Yeah. I just came and watched all this stuff. And here we are in America, spoiled again. Whatever we want. We got menus for everything. You can choose whatever you want. A lot of stuff's free depending on the programs, and you know, and I just came from a place where they're fighting on the street to dig out of a trash pile on the side of the road, and they're trying to kill each other, and you know there's a war going on, and you're complaining
that you want more caramel on your lotte. And I just remember that hit me weird, like like I'm like, okay, do I does my flesh take over and the chaplain go dark here and snatch this lady up and move out of the wide or do I just you know, so I took some deep breaths and uh, or I went to get a haircut, same time, same time I was home and and the lady goes, oh, are you
in the military? Yeah, I was just home for a couple of weeks, so I didn't know there was I didn't know we were still fighting over there, Right, so you kind of go to a ten like really, well, then you come home. So let's say you take the hours, young young guy, right, the young enlisted dude, they make the they make the military work. The enlisted one hundred percent, I'll say that right at the top. And they deserve a lot more than what they get awards, wise and
everything else. These youngsters let's take guard or reserve. Let's take guard, all guards, all combat oriented units. Right, they supplement the active force. Fifty of the component in the in the army at least is guarden reserve. So they're working at McDonald's. Let's say they join the guard, they go to an infantry unit or caveoun And now he's on a fifty cal. He's rolling in an m wrap down some highway in Iraq, Afghanistan. He does his job. I don't know, maybe he smokes, maybe he's got a
smoke some bag. I don't know, but he's he's over there, he's embracing the suck. He's a part of it. He's doing his party, serving his country. And he comes back a nice back at McDonald's. Like a month after he gets home and someone comes in it's complaining about you need to make burgers faster. I'm not saying he doesn't need to do that, but he just got out of a he was just operating a fifty for freaking you know,
nine months or whatever. And that's the hard part. It's that reintegration, you know.
I think, like to for your question earlier, like why does that happen? Like again, personally from like what I've noticed in like suicide rates. I think it's just like lack of purpose. You go from such a high to such a low, and like in such a dramatic way. Like I mean, similarly, it's like when I got back, like we flew out of Afghanistan, we're in.
Kuwait for.
A week and a half, two weeks almost, and.
Kuwait is still I don't I don't know if they considered it a combat environment, but it was like it was like a hot there was hostiles around there.
But like they add that base in Kuwait.
I think it was a I can't I want all yash reif that sounds familiar, I don't know. I can't
remember what the base is called. But there was like a there was a swimming pool there, and then there was there is like a Starbucks, but it wasn't like a Starbucks, and like you had all these army guys like rolling around just like have It's like completely oblivious, and then you fly out and then you know it's nighttime and you wake up and you're in Cherry Point, North Carolina, and you're rolling through the gates and you're like you just you're back in what we call Garrison
and then you're like, oh.
It's so good to be home. And then like you go to a cookout or to.
A McDonald's, and then some heifers just like bitching about her her burger and you're just like, what is going on right now?
And like it just makes it makes it makes you like irritable.
And then like I think that stems into like you just you have a lack of one responsibility. You don't feel like you matter, and like when a lot of guys get out And maybe this isn't directly related to combat. I think a lot of people get this way from just doing their day to day job stateside as well.
But yeah, you just don't have a.
Like a like a calling, like you're not doing what you're what you kind of like initially may have wanted to do. Yeah, And then and that's just like you know, just a mental down spiral.
You feel like they give you a heads up as to this because it's not like this is something new, right, No, they wrote songs about it in the sixties. Yeah, Like did they give you a heads up at all? Like be prepared?
They they kind of tell you about like the culture shock, and like I wouldn't say.
It's like a formal setting.
Like it's like if you have your your old timers and like your your battle tested dudes that have did a few pumps, like they kind of like they'll they'll tell you about it.
And like my brother, uh, he was deployed.
With a unit called Turber Time Shit Marines saying in Afghanistan twenty ten eleven and they got I think they get they got messed up like this unit did, like they lost a lot of people.
And so but when I joined, I've I had a lot of his friends like kind of like mentor me.
And when I told a few of them like hey, like I'm doing a pump, They're like, hey, like everything's gonna be fine, like they coached you and they and then one guy I remember, I won't say his name because I know he listens to the show and he doesn't want to be spotlighted, but uh, he's just like listen, man, it's gonna be it's gonna be like really hard, like when you get back, like you're gonna be around a lot of people that like don't understand, and they like
they're gonna ask questions and no matter what you tell them, no matter how long you spend telling them that, like they're just not.
Gonna they're not gonna get it.
And he's like you just gotta like roll with it.
And so like in a way, yeah, people will tell you, but not the not the army or the Marines themselves. Like yeah, like they they treated as I mean from what I noticed, like they'll they're like when you when you get brought back, you have to do like a bunch of debriefing. So like before we could, like when we got back stateside, before we could go home, we had to go through like classes and like we there's like mental tests and like computer tests to make sure like you don't have.
Any tv I S.
I think we ended up talking to the chef Traumatic Brain injuries, so like you took a test. We took a test before we left, and then like when we got back, we took the exact same test and they're like compared results and just to see if we were like copstetic and and everything was kosher.
So we did that. We talked to a chaps chats we always call them chats, not to be mistaken for.
Not not leather chats.
Yeah, but uh but yeah, we were like and then they we would you know, there was counselors and stuff too, and but like it was more like how you doing good?
Like do you feel like you want to?
Like they kind of I feel like the military deals in extremes a lot. Do you feel like you need you want to kill somebody? And like no, and like so they kind of prepare you the way.
Yeah, they're just like you're going to say, They're like, yeah, like do you feel like you have PTSD?
And I'm like, I don't know, I've never done this before, Like I don't know what that means and or what that looks like for myself.
And so they kind of do it. But it's more of like a military has to do their due diligence so we don't get into trouble kind of thing. And I and that's that's what it felt like. That's what it felt like. I'm not saying that's what they're doing. I'm just saying like that's kind of how it felt.
I mean, you know, we do demo stuff in classes like like Chili's talking about and and a lot of that stuff. You'll check out medically and do do a bunch of those things. But I don't I don't think that there's still the shock factor. You know, you haven't paid bills, right, you haven't driven a regular car or your car. I mean, if you were driving something it was an armored vehicle or one of those other vehicles
we were talking about earlier. Or you've been flying around a helicopter and now all of a sudden you're back and you know over over there, you don't want to be stuck in traffic. Right, you're sitting duck. There's all these different things, or you're driving super fast and swerving on some roads and you know, making sure they're not They used to throw these things off the bridges. I can't remember if they are arcade threes or something, these these hand grenades or ied stuff. So you know you're
staying in certain sides of land all those things. And now you're on the freeway and you're sitting traffic and you're like trying to you know, just a little little things like that, you know, just trying to digest.
That your combat mindset does not go away, like as soon as your back inside, Like you're looking at everything as like a thread, right, and it doesn't.
Matter what your mos was. It just if you were out there on missions and you were doing stuff it you know, even from a childing perspective, it's it's difficult getting back and as a dad, right, you haven't disciplined the kids. The wife has kind of set that all up and got a routine, and now you're coming into that routine and you're kind of blowing it up now, right, you're kind of the new guy in the house, and you don't know what they've been through the whole time
you've been gone. And sometimes then you find out later, which is often upsetting about maybe they cried at night worried about you or this, but the wife kept that from you because you didn't need that when you were down range. There's all those little nuances intimacy, right, you haven't been intimate for a year, so you've got to earn all these things. You've got to work your way back into this and and that reintegration process can be can be difficult. So that's a contributing factor for sure
with some of the stuff. And then and then it's hard, right, it's hard losing your your friends and and your life changes. I think there's something I'll say it like this, I think there's something that happens when you go to a combat zone. Regardless of whether you were a seal or an s F or infantry or whatever, whatever your your job was or your unit was, there's something that is taken away from you. And I'm sure there's probably some guys that might disagree with me, but there is something
that changes in you. And then I think you start to spend your time trying to get that back. And I don't know if that's a sense of innocence, you know, you just the world is different, right, and then you become comfortable over there. You've learned how to kind of survive, and you're comfortable and you're you're in that environment. It's snake especially Afghanistan. I was in cobble in it just it's smell. The air is real bad, not good for you. Why guys are getting all this burn pit stuff both
both both both countries Iraq as well. But little kids are you're driving by and they're they're doing this. They don't want you there. They're throwing rocks at the at the you know, a big hunk of concrete hitting the armored vehicle sounds like you know it's a problem. Uh oh,
you know, different things like that. And now all of a sudden, you're you're back and you watch just the two year olds, you know, no diaper, no nothing, eating old rotten food out of the street, and that just it's so there's I don't know, there's just something that you know, I think you, I think you lose and that you're kind of constantly trying to get that back. Something changes in you. And I think the other thing that happens a lot with families, in particular married couples
or or families. As you get back and you you think you're the same, Right, you're the same dude. You're you're you're happy to be home, you're thankful, you're blessed, you're all those things. And then maybe someone in your family or a relative or a friend says, man, you've changed. Well that's not what you want to hear, right, So it kind of hits you in the guy like, wait a second, what do you mean I've changed? What do you mean by that? And so then that starts as cycle.
So there's a lot, I think a lot of factors. That's why I think it's good. I mean, you gotta talk, you got to get outside, you've got to do those things, and uh, you know, you know I wouldn't have said this to you twenty some years ago. You know, I was more of a hardened you know, street cup from who who learned how to do that job in a bad place, in a bad time. And I wouldn't have said, you don't need counseling whatever, go to this praph. Sure, I don't want to talk. I don't want to go
there and hold hands and all this stuff. But I'll tell you what, man, I get a lot of those dudes coming through the door, the toughest guys from and I'm telling you I won't name names, but I mean guys have been through CQB shootings within a few months of coming up there.
What's that mean?
You know, close quarter contact shot type stuff, swat call outs where they've been shot. I had a guy up shot four times. I mean, all kinds of guys and some tough stuff. And uh, and they they kind of have that wall up. I get it. I was that way that, you know, coming in and they don't know what we're gonna talk about, they don't know who I am. They're trying to sniff it out. I told Krinn for
lack of a better term just talking straight here. It's kind of like a couple of pit bulls sort of sniffing each other's butts, trying to figure out who's dominant, who's not. You know, that whole thing goes on. But then they realize, man, look, we're we're just here to love you. Man, We're here to give you something for your toolbox. We're gonna give you an injection of some some some biblical stuff. You're gonna get that. I'm not
gonna proselyze to you. I'm not gonna beat you over the head with it, just like we don't do in the army. I'm not We're not doing that. We're gonna give you something that that that means more than just some of the other frivolous stuff that that's out there in the world and in life. Right We're we're gonna that's what That's what we're gonna do, and we're gonna
dig in whenever you're ready. And I'm telling you one hundred percent of the time, by Saturday Sunday, you know, tears are shed, guys are opening up, guys are talking. But you gotta have the right mix of people there. You gotta have everybody there has got to have some legit put in their work, right, so there's that respect level we we we just call it putting in work and earning their trust and making sure it's a safe place to talk.
Like the other guys want to you know, can you hold can you hold that thought? Mix you something I want to ask before your specific work. Something I'm not clear on. When I was laying we were talking about the suicide. Yeah, people having troubles reintegrating. I know just from being friends with you that that and you've mentioned it. You do a lot of work with police as well,
another first responders. Give me the give me the version that is happening with cops who do go home every night, or they go home every few nights whatever, Like what is that? What is that version? Because I remember a buddy mine, not even a cop, a buddy mine, Greg, who's a firefighter.
He told me.
A firefighter has a greater chance of dying by suicide than he has a dying in a fire.
YEP.
I also said to Greg one time, kind of dumb like question. I'm sure he hates here, and I said, how many dead people have you dealt with? He said, what do you mean it's like how many how many human bodies have you interacted with? He goes hundreds. Right, you have to like there has to be a connection there, right, But from your perspective, like, it's not that you're reintegrating from another country. What is the reality that that from
your from your work? What is the reality that these guys that are in American society like what becomes so hard for them?
I think it's the trauma exposure you do, okay, and it's the having to compartmentalize that stuff. And then I think as you get older. I actually think as you get older, it hits you harder. And that's just more personal experience. Your mortality comes into the site. Pick quicker, right, starting to get older, you've seen all this stuff. Maybe you've been able to block it out. You just keep
rolling high op tempo, block it out. Next call, next call, next call, baby not breathing, okay, had to deal with that, and the baby didn't make it okay, you know, besides the fact that you know you gave it mouth to mouth. Then you go to a fatal crash, just an accident,
but kid gets run over and you're investigating that. Then you go to a shooting, okay, drug rip off Okay, I can kind of I can kind of compartmentalize that it shouldn't have been messing with dope, right, But you compartmentalize and go to the next one, the next one, the next one, and it just stacks up. I like to use the bookshelf example. Right, you take it, you put the book on the shelf behind you. You just keep doing that over the years, and you're rolling careers, great,
everything's cool, family's cool. And then all of a sudden, the bookshelf falls over where you're gonna put all that stuff, and it's all coming kind of come coming down on you. Start thinking about things you got maybe a little more time as you get older, you know, you're having kids and grandkids whatever, and and that some of that stuff starts piling up on you. And uh, I think that plays a role as well. And and and then those questions, maybe it's a little guilt and shame. Maybe it's I
wish I could have done more. Why didn't I do more? Or why is everybody killing each other? Oh? You know, these kind of things start start coming up, and law enforcement they lose folks too. I remember a young deputy getting getting killed when I early on when I was down working Lennox and we rolled leap Frog tried to get over he was working out a firestone station and and uh got shot up good and and I was just in patrol school with him. Good guy, great guy,
you know. And it happened. It doesn't happen every single day necessarily where I was working, but it did happen enough to where it bothers you, you know. And Uh, I just think dealing with all that trauma, not having outlets and coping healthy coping mechanisms such as the outdoors, such as uh, you know, talking to people and talking to someone, I think spiritual fitness, spiritual resiens. He's huge. And I put it this way, Steve, I think this is important. You know, where do we where do we
think about a carabiner? Right? You guys probably use carabineers. Everybody's probably used one at some point in their life. Where is that? In order for that thing to work right, you gotta screw it down. You gotta hook something stable, something you trust. So if we use that term, and we we say, okay, where's our hope. If our hope is the carabiner, what is it connected to. If it's to the world, it's gonna hold you. I'm just gonna screw you. If it's to yourself, you're gonna fail yourself.
If it's to other person, usually they're gonna fail you at some point too. But if you've got some spiritual fitness, my personal opinion, if I that thing to the Lord and I study, I mean, not always understand why he does what he does. I mean I always understand the reasons or the timing or whatever. Uh you know. And I'm not I'm not here to preach. I'm just sharing this with you from my own personal experience.
I real you were invited here to talk.
I would rather hook that, to have my hope hooked to something like that. The one and only do that can they can truly help me? And in the end, when I when I'm not taking none of the stuff with me, nothing's going with me, right nothing? Am I
going to roll the dice with eternity? Or am I going to try to spend my time in my life on things that have eternal value, things that are kingdom oriented, to make a difference, be a difference maker in somebody else's life, on behalf of the kingdom, Because I'm a sinner and jacked up just like the rest. Right, we're all trying to help you love each other and get get through stuff. And so so that's the question, the challenge I always ask my where's my hope hooked to?
Is ain't trying to run his program and trying to control his life in every aspect. Sure there's days where I do that, and then I realize, Okay, let's see, this whole thing ain't up to me. But it's that faith. It's that it's that spiritual fitness. And that's why it's even what's taught even in the military as some of the resiliency skills is there's a value to that spiritual fitness or spiritual resiliency helping you overcome the challenges that
you're going to face in your life. So doesn't necessarily even have to be you know, I'm going to tell you what I think is is a is a good way and what I believe. But if it's not and it's a different, different faith group or but you've got that spiritual resiliency, I think it matters, you know, I think it does. It can help you, you know, get rid of this bookshelf piling up and having that spiritual strength. I think is is a big deal.
When you when you host a group of individuals, you're usually hosting a group of individuals who know each other. Is that true?
Usually not in all cases. I'd say the majority of the time they know each other or of each other.
Yeah.
Yeah, and sometimes with vets it doesn't necessarily work that way. But you know, depending on what they're involved with. We might have a team of vets come out that we're all involved in some major stuff in Afghanistan or Iraq, and then they'll know.
Yeah, each other. I don't want to like violate what happens. Yeah, it's privately, you know, up the road from my house when you're doing your work. But like a group of people come and they're they're using those probably using those coping mechanisms that you're talking about, meaning the coping mechanism might be like the bookshelf behind you. You know they're they're doing or okay.
Right, alcohol or substance abuse or sex addictions or affairs or wherever they're getting there adrenaline.
From there's got to be more like maybe at first you'd be like, well, let's cook some burgers. Them will shoot some bows. But I mean, how do you even how does the conversation start? You know what I'm saying.
So the way I do it is I've got people I can trust in various agencies and various regions. For example, dudes that I know are legit, that have been through the storms, you know, put in their work that people respect, that are equally yoked with the mission. Makes sense? No, okay, so equally oak. They're on board, right, They're on board with our mission, they understand it, and they have access to some of these agencies more so than I do because I'm up here.
Oh when you say they're yoked with the mission, your mission? Yes, mission right?
Be equally oaked. Right, So it's a kind of a theological term. Right when you got two oxen, if they're not equally oak, they're not going to be able to plow. So everybody's equally oaked. And they're recruiting people to come up different struggles they they've heard about or know about, so they're hitting them kind of off the side. No one's getting spotlighted, No one's getting this is a very
like in the Trenches program. We don't care, We're not looking at okay, we need two hundred people to come through this season. We have a steady take. We do small intimate groups so we can really make the most maximum impact in the time they're here. So the dynamic when they arrive, so they kind of have a little rough idea, but I'd say most of the time they don't really know how it's going to go. You got to earn their trust and that starts the moment they
get off the plane. Right, you know, my job and they sometimes they don't realize I'm doing this, but my job is to size them up, and they're gonna size me up to figure out Okay, body language, what do they say, what are they wearing?
What you know?
And you're not judging, You're just trying to You're trying to get to know them on a little more intimate level, right, so you can better so you can better help them.
And they have to know that, Like these guys have to know you've been there.
Yeah, oh yeah, they know. Yeah, they'll know. They can go to the website, or they can ask around, or they can talk to these I mean.
I'm sorry, not just knowledge, but psychologically it matters that you've seen the things they've seen.
I think it matters for them. I think it matters, I think, and that goes back to that putting in work statement. It's the same with vets, right, you'll you'll you'll be more comfortable with someone that's been down range maybe than someone that hasn't, regardless of necessarily even what they did. But they embrace the suck. They were there, they were separated from their families, they were there. Yeah, so it's similar to that. They come in, Man, there's
nothing tough. We're gonna give them a tour, We're gonna talk about schedule, We're gonna do introductions, and that's where I think the ice breakers come when we start doing introductions. You know, where do you work, you know, tell me about your family, those kind of things. But the funny part is, man, and I can't explain it any other way than this, as crazy as it sounds, And some of the listeners might be like, I don't know what
he's talking about. But when they come through the door, first of all, when they make a decision to come up there, there's a sense of vulnerability that they have. They're showing up. They know at some point we're gonna talk a little bit. They're not gonna be forced to. But that's the deal. They're starting to recognize that they got to make some changes in their life right and step up. So some of that's already gone. And my belief is guys preparing their hearts well before they show up.
I'm talking the toughest. Most of them don't even have a religious They don't have to have that to show up there. That's not a requirement. It starts before they get here. They get here, they come in, we relax, we give tours, and then I just open it up and explain, Listen, man, I'm down here to We're not judging, We're not We're here to let you get some rest, hopefull you'ld to get something out of it. We'll go outside, we'll do some fun stuff, get to shoot some bows and uh, and we'll dig in.
A little bit.
And it's a good time to do a self evaluation. And I just tell them straight, it's a good time to do a self evaluation and a gut check. I think it's healthy for us. And I can only speak from a man's perspective. Is you know we're most have been here in here a men, but you got a gut check yourself from time to time and figure out where where am I? What's the purpose of this life? Where am I going? You know, what's going to happen when I go to die? You know what? What does
that look like? It's just over? Okay? You know how how am I with my relationships? How am I with my kids? All of those things? How am I with my job?
My peers?
Those are all all things that that we talk about. But it's a good time. I think it's important to gut check yourself once in a while. What kind of a man am I? Right? What do I really stand for? Because uh, you know, we're all going to get older, and then that's going to be the question, right.
And you invite people to ask these questions of themselves.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll pose the question. And a lot of times sometimes guys will jump in. Sometimes they'll just listen, intimately listen then and then when it starts to trust is earned, it'll open up. They'll talk about an incident. Maybe it was on a swat call. Maybe you know, one of the guys got killed and they're in a stick and they gotta step over him and keep fighting. Maybe they'll get into that. Maybe it's a
family thing. Maybe it's something they feel comfortable to talk about about a bad situation with a parent or you know whatever. It's a safe place for that. And there's a lot of you know, so many people run by our place and drive up there, and I think if they knew the cool stuff there's going on down there, that's private. What goes on there stays there. But the I think some of the ministry work and the massaging of hearts and loving on people, I think I think they'd really be be shocked.
You guys are incredibly low key.
We like it that way.
In our neighborhood. No one until I came on the show, and our neighborhood, no one knows. No one knows, right, no one knows. You guys don't have your trucks aren't marked. There's no sign we've got one you Yeah, oh no, no, I'm sorry.
Yeah about being low key.
I was like, you know that place up there, it's like they run that nonprofit for first responders and veterans. People like what, Yeah, I'm telling you right there, man, it's.
About being low key. You won't see us in town drinking beers too much. You won't see us. Uh, you're not gonna see us out pushing this and pushing that. We're just here to put in work. His old school.
How many how many guys come How many guys come through your place?
We get about seventy sometimes a little more season yeap, And we usually run from May, depends on the snow and kind of what's happening. But is he made it November first? Yep?
And we reset. We usually go every other week, reset.
Clean kind of for us to kind of you know, for me emotion menally and emotionally, just also for me to kind of clear my head and my staff, my volunteers give him a break because you know, getting volunteers sometimes that came help out and teach stuff, and it's Sonny and Bozeman is and it's on a weekend, right, that can be tough. But and then everything's fund raised for and that that gets tough, you know, But every year we seem to just get enough to keep keep rolling.
And so I just keep the faith, man, I just keep going.
How much is doing that work its own you imagine, like you mentioned like having traumas, how much of that work does that to you and the people you work with?
You mean, what effects do we get from here, And I.
Mean, does it wind up being does it wind up being kind of circular where you not that they lay it on you, but like here, you are seventy people in a in a seventy people through the course of the summer lay on you all their horrific ship, right.
Do you?
I mean, does it does it feel burdensome or does it feel like it cleanses and something?
Oh, I think I'd be lent to you if it's not burdensome, because I think our natural reaction is to take on to help people sometimes try to take those on. But it's not my deal. It's it's not it's not my caper, right, it's it's God's I gotta I gotta give it to him. I'm just there to facilitate that. And uh, and that's how that's how I treat it. But you your heart does break for some of them, and you think a lot about them, and you keep them on prayerless, and you stay in contact all those things.
But to watch a you know, it's good for me, and I think it's good for my staff to hear this, to hear from them, and to give back in that way. I mean, we're serving those that serve us, right, So it's super rewarding, like it fills the cup big time and it and it definitely helps me personally, brings back a lot of memories sometimes for me that I have
to sort through afterwards. But uh, I think it's circular in that way and in a positive But I also think if you don't, if you don't deal with the way you should deal with it, then it can be two burdensome to you, similar to down range. Right. I tried when I first lost those two guys, and for whatever reason, I would, you know, a lot of times I would stand when there was if I wasn't going on a mission. We had these secret briefing tents and
then a convoy would go out. We have convoy security was kind of our primary thing, right, which is sketchy because you're rolling down all the roads and uh, and we had I was in there later at night and I'll try to work through this here, but late at night was one of my last ones. So I would go in this briefing tent for different chalks that were going out. I would sit in the back in a chair by the door. They'd give their secret brief on
the routes. This one's black, this is red, whatever, and kind of go over the mission and how things are gonna roll. Well, this was the last one of the night, and I had a close relationship with some of these guys. I won't get into why, but with kind of these main ones that were involved in this particular incident. So at the end, I go chaplain, chaplain, stands up, everybody
stands up. You give them a pep talk, You give them some encouragement, man, because let me tell you something, when you have an opportunity, I don't know of anything more humbling that's happened to me. Maybe birth, my kids and those kind of things, but my marriage to look in the eyes of a young soldier who could be sucking on a Starbucks latte, but they're down range, embracing the suck, serving their country, dirty and tired, and you get that opportunity to love on them. I don't know
what's better than that. And so give them some encouragement, maybe read a psalm or verse, pump them up, because you don't know who's not coming back from that deal. I mean, just don't th roll the dice. Right In that particular night, I had for whatever reason. I usually will stand back by the door when they're done and they're leaving and just hug them, smack them on the shoulder, tell them I love them, and and you know, I'll see it soon or what you know, tomorrow or whatever.
Everything will be fine. Well for whatever. That night, I was focused on these one truck and uh one we call him trucks, but one group. So you got a driver, TC and a gunner in that truck and H. I hugged them, shook their hands, and I was having a lot of interactions with them for some other things going on, and in a positive way and H and I told them. They're like, hey, chaplain, we'll see you tomorrow. And I said, yeah, I said, you're going to be fine. I prayed, everything's cool, guys.
You guys go out there, do your thing. Man, We appreciate you serving the country. We love you, all those motivational things. And then two hours later, you know, I'm getting woke up one in the morning or whatever and running to the TMC and and uh they're hollering for me to get back there, and they're bringing one of them in on a gurney and he's all blown up. And turn to kid it out, and then I don't see the other guys. And then now I got a medic hugging me, crying because we lost those two guys
we didn't know. I got company commanders. And two. I mean, it's just kind of melee that I'm trying to deal with. But the one, the one young man, he asked me something that was interesting. And he said, he's laying on his gurney and he said, he said, well, first he says, hey, chaplin, I said, and he's still still alive today, great, great kid. And I said, hey, man, I said, be asking you that.
And then he realized what was happening and and his legs are in bad shape, and and I said, he asked me this, He said, why did God let this happen? And still to this day that question haunts me. Haunts me from a few perspectives. I don't have the answer. One. Two. He just he was sizing it up and realized he's in trouble and where's his buddies because he didn't know, and I didn't have it. I didn't have anything. And I was thinking, okay, Lord, you gotta give me something.
So I just say, hey, listen, man, I don't know, I said, but God's got you. I got you, and I ain't going to leave your side. And I give you my word, I'm not leaving your side. And so I stayed with him until they shipped him to Germany. But what blogged in Germany? But I struggled with that the first few days in particular, I mean I still kind of struggle with it, just because I had said something that I don't think I should say. Again, did I give him a false sense of hope? Right?
Yeah?
Like maybe I shouldn't have said those things that way. So I had to change what I said. It's not up to me, sin, it's not my deal. Yeah, who comes home and who's you know, it's just not my deal. And so I had to I had to change that up.
Like he gave him an assurance that wasn't used to give.
It, right right yep. And I and that's the one that I still remember it everything about that night to this day. And there was other wounded people and other things, but that was our first one. And I said those words. So I just as a learning lesson, how did you change your words? Then you just would say, hey, you guys are doing great work. You focus on the positives. Go out there, take care of business. We're with you
whatever you need, you know, more encouraging. I wouldn't promise them, even though I didn't realize I was doing that till after mortality, like promising them survival. Yep, this is not my call. And so I had to change that up. And there's a many other chaplains that have similar stories about you're just trying to give him some encouragement and that's why you're in there. But you know, they've got
to trust that chaplain when that chaplain's praying. They got to trust when he you know, he stands up back there, she stands up. There's got to be a sense of all right, we're gonna be good. So there is some of that, But saying the words I think is was. I just didn't do that anymore. Figured out a different way.
You know.
I got last question for you.
Your place where you work is just like this gorgeous property. Yeah, you guys got like a big creek, got looking off at the mountains, trout pond and yeah, big meadows and it's beautiful. Do you do you feel that? I mean, obviously do because you do your work there. But what is that what is that like natural environment, that natural beauty to be there?
Is that.
Is that helpful and getting people to want to go or is it helpful in getting people to getting people to open up you know what I mean.
I think I think there's it's a yes to all three, right. I think I think one, people want to come to Montana, you know, they want they want to come up here and experience the beauty of it. I think they go on there and they see the place and they're like, you know, obviously enamored with that beauty. It's quiet, although you know sometimes now with some of the traffic in the winter, but we don't run as main groups in winter,
so but it's quiet. It's away from the chaos, right, it's a it's a good place to gut check yourself. You can folks us on stuff and the beauty and and uh, you know, we've got a chef that comes in and cooks and make it comfortable. But yeah, the beauty is huge. And when they wake up and it's quiet and they're looking at trees and they're seeing animals and a lot of times those moose, I don't know what it is. They're fighting in the front yard, and guys were like, you know, I had one fireman, long
beach fireman, great group man. Every person that's been through, it's just been fantastic. But we were sitting out there and we do like campfires at night, like a little bonfire and just kind of get to know each other more every night. And we had started early, so it's still like and we look over in this foxes jumping just like you see on nat geo. Right, he's jumping. He's snatching myself and out of the grass, and I'm like, wow, that's cool to see that, you know. And this young
guy was so pumped. He said, I almost see how close I get. He gets his camera out and he's and he must have got within fifteen yards of the oh oh yeah. And that sucker just kept doing it over and over. Those are those kinds of things that really add to or bears will walk up. We've had bears. I've been doing a chapel service, so we do chapel service. It's optional, you don't have to go. I'm gonna offer to you, right, it's gonna do a quick ten minute, fifteen minute good word of the day. If a guy
needs communion, you know, get communion as well. But ninety nine percent of the people come to those. We've only had maybe one or two that weren't of the same faith group. And that's fine, and they were cool about it. And this happened a few different times. One time in particularly, I'm doing the service and all of a sudden, everybody's I lose everybody, and I'm like, I look out, and this black bear is looking through the window.
He's watching.
He's watched it be he's watching the ever of course everybody mag you know, went right then that sucker got he was comfortable, he was too comfy. He cruises around the backside and he comes up to the front door. I mean, just like he lived in the joint. I've had a lot of bear issues, as you know. As you know, I had a lot of bear problems over there. Yeah, scared off cubs at night, used to get in my cans, drag a can forty yards into the brush, tear it
up my barbecues of the back patio. I mean, just yeah, a lot of bear issues. But yeah, that's it. I think that the natural beauty, the wildlife, I think the montana feel, all those things are play a role in calming people down.
Ye.
So if if people out there, first responders, service members, like, if there's a group that feels that come and to see you might be good for them, Like, how do they proceed? And if people that are outside of that, they're just listeners that want to help, what you guys do? How do they how do they proceed?
Yeah? The best way is they go to the website. All the stuff's on the on the website. If they've got a group they want to put together, there's apps they can fill out on there, or they can just go to task Force Heroes, Taskforce Heroes dot or YEP donations the same way they put it.
But a group of guys, group of active like active people can go and say, hey, you know, me and some of my colleagues or whatever, YEP would like to check on the possibility of coming out.
YEP.
They could do it that way.
They can. There's an email through there that comes directly to me that they can say, I got seven guys or like I said, we try to try to make it intimate and smaller. We fill up real quick, and we fill up real fast, and we're dealing with some maintenance issues right now that we're we're fixing because we had a water leak over there and some other stuff. But yeah, that's the that's the best way to the best way to do it.
And how about people that want to support you and help.
That that's another best way. Send an email, make a connection with me. I mean, they can get hold of you. We're right there. We see each other quite a bit. So any of those ways that that's the biggest. You know, it's one hundred percent free for these these folks, and you know, flying them and feeding them and cleaning and getting them here and all that. It's operation are fairly steep at a place like that, but we want to make it a once in a lifetime experience for him.
Good food, cooking, wild game. A lot of them never tried elk or deer, turkey, any of those things. I mean, it's it's been a it's been amazing. I mean one time we we we we got a turkey right there on the property and smoked it up and and uh, they got to eat fresh turkey. Man, it was great.
Do you guys deal with your nuisance bears on the property.
We deal with those. Yeah, we have dealt successfully a few times with uh with bears. One four hundred and four pounder over four hundred sixteen year old bear, A big sucker, And I sent that picture of that big fatty we had.
Yeah, you were like.
His response was, Man, a lot of good bear grease out of that do that area?
Want those cherries down along there, you know over there, like all over the place? Man, they just vanished the harvested a bear.
Maybe yeah, well you have they stand up and you know, they reach up and pull them down and they'll just suck them all right off that yeah, right off the limb, man, that whole.
Bottom end of that canyon. When the choke cherries come in, it's just bears all over. Choke cherries go away. Bears are all gone. Yeah, they take off, and then those wax wings show up clean up the choke cherries and it's the end of the whole program.
Yep.
But it's a little rush. It's a little flurry of activity, except yep, and wounded deer from getting hit. And yeah, we got a lot of that.
You know.
My wife running out going you got to kill that deer. I'm thinking I got one tag here, you know, it's a little spike or something with three legs. She's like you gotta do something so we get a lot of that stuff. Yeah, any more other questions you had? Man?
No, Man, I'm glad I came on and, like I said, I just said, you know, it's been nice to it's been nice to meet you. And then just the little bits I've picked up about the work you did, I was just really impressed by it.
Man.
And then one time you invited me up to meet a couple of your guys. Yeah, And I could just tell going there, you know, as short as I was there, I could tell going there, I just could tell you had like a very special program going on. Yeah, it's very I can tell that the guys that were there were I don't know, man, I could I could see why they're there. I could see what they were getting
out of it, you know what I mean? Just you create like a really like a I don't know, man, like a just in that little bit of exposure I had, you create this kind of amazing bubble for people. Man. Yeah, but I could picture being hard people to get to talk, right.
I appreciate that. And it's not just me, it's I got a great team. I got great board of directors. They're all either former or veterans that are still serving or active military folks or uh, you know, I got a lot of LAPD guys on there, and guys from different places in the country, and a great board, great volunteers. Man, we got we couldn't do without all them, all them folks. And and then you know, when we moved up here, we just went all in, all our furniture, all stuff.
And you know, I'm not saying that too my heart. I'm just saying it was a huge commitment. We didn't know anybody really in Montana, and we got here about it almost eight years ago, and and uh we're just like, okay, lord, you gotta do. You do your work here. And we filled up that first season in like three months. And uh, it's just just amazing stuff. So it's all my wife for sure and kids that that sacrificed a lot to make it happen. So we'll just keep on pushing forward.
And I appreciate my relationship with you man, just being real. It's it's been it's been good. And I mean this guy helped me for hours try to find my Hebrew inscripted wedding band.
Found I lost. We're out there. The metal Detector being my kids and man, we found You don't realize how many twenty two casings are out in the world. I'm sure you know what's funny. I was actually one of the camera guys I'm working with on his History Channel show. He'd filmed, like he worked for a long time on a metal detecting show.
Oh, man, we gotta find it.
Oh.
I was picking his brain about that, and he was saying that, like, these dudes that host that show would have no problem hopping up that ring. But man, we were we got, I got. Yeah, I'm not like a metal detector, but me and my kids were out there and we were more garbage. That's a nice looking place for so much garbage, sub surface shockgun shells, everything. It's like people could trying to find a ring here man.
Made Israel, like handmade in Israel, and my wife's got the match you won, and I'm.
Like, maybe someone who's out there's a real metal detecting enthusiast. It's like, you know, so Shane walked out of his house. Yeah, he journey walks along the side of his driveway. You walked three hundred yards.
Yeah, well he left the pond. We're we're you know, we used the pond just to let guys most of them never fly fish, so just to get them to cast and catch something, just so they get the field before we go to the creek or we go off site. And uh, I kept getting hooked with stuff, and you know, just trying to get sometimes guys will get snagged. You know, guy's got something in his ear or something, and so
you're working through that. So I took it off, I put it in my pocket, walked around that pump back to the house, and then I went to take it out in my room and I had a hole in my pocket. Yeah, and I'm like, so somewhere, Yeah.
It's like it's like a ten it's like not three hundred yards long, and it's maybe a ten foot wide twenty foot wide path. Yeah, but thwarted us.
If you know, if you if you think you could find it, if you are a metal detecting enthusiast and a professional, you can write us at the meat Eater podcast at the meat eater dot com to offer yourself.
And if you find it, will put together I'm just gonna throw this out there. If you find that, ring will put together a generous care package.
Yeah. But you got.
Yeah, say we're gonna vat you first. We're gonna vet you. Make sure we're gone.
Right exactly.
You need a CEEV as long as chains the.
Property owner check in.
Uh.
Reverend Shane Yates, Yeah, former cop, current military guy.
Chaps.
Well, I appreciate it, man, it's a task force heroes. Thanks for coming out. Man.
It's humbling. I appreciate you got each of you, you know, it really is. What we do is humbling, and I'm just blessed to be able to do it. And uh, blessed, blessed for all the blessings I've gotten in my life. And I missed all my own struggles and own stuff. So privilege to come on. So thanks for the time.
Thank you, Thank you,