Ep. 542: Trump, Biden, and Wildlife: How Elections Shape Conservation

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Susie Orman is an American financial advisor, author of How Many Books, A Lot of Books?

Ten ten ten, number one New York Times bestseller, and I am just not a financial advisor, sir. I am a financial icon of America. And you're young and you don't know about me. That's why you're financially screwed.

Yes, if you don't, yeah, if you don't have a big old boat, If you don't have a big old boat yet, it's because you haven't been listening to Susie. So in nineteen eighty seven, she founded the Susie Ormand Financial Group, and her work as a financial advisor gained notability notoriety with Susie Orman Show, which ran on CNBC and for thirteen years, and does.

A podcast, I'll tell You My Brief History, which is two time Emmy Award winner, twice named by Time magazine as one hundred most influential person in the world. Recently just named as one of the fifty over fifty women who have changed this world.

And I could go on and on, but who cares.

About them over fifty?

No, it's true.

I actually said, well, it took you so long because I'm mopped to be seventy three?

Are you really what?

Yeah, look it up, you google it.

Why this is part of your research?

Well, no, I might have known. I might have read that and then thought that's impossible because she looks too great.

But that's why it happens when you have a lot of money. I haven't got any work done, but that's besides the point as well.

Now, okay, you might be wondering, like, well, how why this show? Because I found now I've known once upon a time Susan and I for a brief period overlap with our book publishers. But she's the reason she's on the show right now is she's a mega fisherman, like I got photos here of her with a stack of wah who manages to live in Bahamas, which I need to ask how that goes down? And when I first reached out to her about coming on the show, I see a picture of her where she's standing next to

It's a marlin.

Yeah. But that was like old that she's standing with a deep drop rig, and I was like, this is a legit fisher person. Have you always fished?

No?

So when I was sixty five, many years ago now, I had decided what would Susie Orman be if she didn't have the number one show on CNBC for thirteen years or how many of her years it was. If she didn't have you know, standing ovations of fifty thousand people at a time, if she didn't have this, What would I be if all of that went away? So one day I decided to sell five homes, quit my show, stop writing for Oprah, stop being on TV BAM, and

And little by little we would.

Be asking questions like how do you catch a wahoo?

What's a wahoo?

And before you know it, we got the equipment and we went out and we would try, and before you know it, we started to catch And at first we didn't know the difference between a barracuda and a wahoo, so we'd have to bring the fish in and ask somebody on the island is this.

A barracuda or is this a wahoo?

And little by little we got it down really well, and it was I think it was just a few years ago, maybe two thousand and eighteen, not whatever it was, but a few years ago there was a wahoo contest on the island and there were nine boats that went out, huge fishing vessels with captains and all these lines. And we had our little, you know, thirty two foot Boston wayler were just two poles.

That was it, the two.

LPs, and we won not only the contest, but we won the largest fish as well. Oh and now all the men were and who had been wahooing and everything for years, we became their targeters if they wanted to catch us.

They never quite have, but we've.

Now I'm no longer known as the money Lady, which was my nickname. We're now known on the island KT and myself as the fishing girls. And when we go out, you see the boats start to follow us because they want to know where are we going, what are we doing? And things like like the birds, Yeah right, they're watching for us. Or we'll be somewhere and they'll come up just to kind of say hi, and I know they're

You're still not going to catch here. I love them, I love it.

Right right, But anyway, and that's how it started, little by little. Now I have a massive lure collection, a massive rod in real collection, and we use them all the time.

How many reason are you good at cleaning fish?

Yeah, it's actually KT that cleans them, right, because that's what she wanted to do. I didn't care one way or the other, to tell you the truth. She is magnificent at it. She does like cleans. You hold up the thing and you.

Could see through it. She's fabulous at.

It, right, and she's and then we cry back it and then we also share it with all the other people on the island, the islanders that work there.

Oh excellent, Now I got a question for you. You mentioned getting up to a position where you got a nice boat. Now, one of our colleagues Chester, we used call him Chester the Investor. His plan to get a walleye boat was to throw in on bitcoin.

Yeah, good, I hope he did.

Well. He did, and he got out a couple of years ago.

Right, there's still a time for him to get in a little bit now because on April twentieth there will be a halving a bigcoin, so we should see it if the technical stay the same, for bitcoin to probably go up into the eighty thousand or so area. Obviously

Well, I make sure he tunes in. Yeah, how do you what's your take if someone how do you advise someone like Karn had found a segment where a guy was trying to figure out if he could justify the purchase of a twenty thousand dollars fishing boat. When it comes to fishing boats, how do you instruct people to think about what's too much?

Yeah, he should go on. I can't I afford it segment on the Women in Money podcast because it's the hand of every podcast we have that And I'll tell him, first of all, there is nothing that it's more expensive, and I don't care what size it is than a boat. Your engines are either breaking. Everything on a boat today has a three year lifespan.

That is it.

Your batteries will go, your your switches will go, your everything will go. And so it's hard to look at a boat with something not breaking on it as you're looking at it. So it's not can you afford to buy a boat? Can you afford the upkeep on the boat? Can you afford the insurance on the boat? Can you afford the gasoline on the boat to really do things? Because gasoline now is far more expensive than.

It was years ago. So where you're going to house the boat?

Are you living like in Florida or someplace that a hurricane could get the boat?

So there's all these things that go into it.

However, bottom line, you better have at least an eight to twelve month emergency fund of what it would cost you to live and pay your must pay expenses, your mortgage or your rent, you're in, whatever it is, so that if you got sick, you were in an accident, you got laid off, you would be able to pay those for eight months. You better not have any credit card debt whatsoever.

You better be fully.

Funding your retirement accounts to the max. You better be really so good when it comes to money. And then if you have that, you already bought a home, whatever it is, you can have a boat.

Good luck, man. I don't know if there's a lot of boat owners list. It's always a good idea to roll the dice on a big boat, because you never.

Know what's funny.

You guys, We've had a thirty two foot boat now for since twenty sixteen. We are going on eight years with the same boat. The men on the island, and of course they would. They think bigger is better, all right. So they have to go from two engines to three engines to four engines. They have to go from a three hundred to a four point fifty to a six hundred.

They're nuts. If one of them gets a.

Bigger boat, the others all get a bigger boat. I have never seen anything like it. And then they say to me, why do you keep the same boat?

What is wrong with you?

One reason I keep the same boat is one of the reasons that I think that we are so successful in fishing, especially catching wahoo. Is the wahoo, in my opinion, like the wash off the engines of our boat, our engines.

And you get to stay out of what we call a boat measuring contest, right.

But you know, I also just love beating them in a smaller boat anyway, So what's the difference?

Well, that brings up a great point though, like when you go to in vest in something recreationally, do you measure in the mental benefit of being able to go do something you love? Is that a factor?

Yes? And no?

It depends, Like obviously for somebody like me. I'm a seriously wealthy woman, and if I wasn't, I shouldn't be who I am.

To this day.

So I don't measure bigger necessarily being what can I cannot do. I like to buy exactly what I need, not what I can afford, because I can afford more than what I need. I don't need more than a thirty two foot boat, I don't, you know. It's just me and Kate. It's what I need it for. So just because I can afford it doesn't mean that I want to buy it.

You used to be down. You used to advise people that eating dinner out was a real financial.

Drain, such a drain it was.

Actually in two thousand and nine, I came out with a book called the two thousand and nine Action Plan because the economy was a mess. I was on the Oprah Winfrey Show with it. We actually gave it away for free, millions of copies we gave away for free. But there were a few things that I asked everybody in there to do, and that was to stop eating out for at least six months. I thought the restaurant industry was going to explode. They could not believe that

So we have a little hot plate. We do this so I.

Personally don't enjoy eating out at a restaurant just to go out and eat out only because I just I don't know.

I think the food's better at home and healthier.

Well, you don't even have to use a hot plate. If you got wahoo with you all the time.

Yeah, well we bring that as well because we love wahushashimi.

Yeah yeah, so a lot.

But if you're there for a long time, because sometimes you're a place for a while, then we had a little hot plate. We had a little you know, fry pan, a little this in a that, and we go to the grocery store if we roun on.

A food and bring it.

So it was always people would always laugh at us as.

They would see us checking into a hotel.

Susie, I saw a photo where it looks like you I might be looking at it wrong, but I feel like there's a photo where you're sitting there with a rockfish with a link cod that looks like it came up with like you caught the rockfish, but landed a link caught and a rockfish.

Yeah, So there we are because every year we also like to eat salmon, so we usually go to either Alaska or British.

Columbia to catch our own salmon.

Great, and so there we were and I was fishing, and I was actually fishing. I didn't even you know, we had caught our quota of salmon and halib it. So I was just kind of fishing and I caught something and I'm bringing it up, and I'm like saying to kt KT this is I don't know what I got here, but I don't think this is just a rockfish, because we wanted a rockfish in order to make tacos out of it. And all of a sudden, I bring

Okay, give us a couple, give people a couple we'll let you go after this, but give people a couple tips on how they should handle their tax refunds. I'm guessing. I'm guessing that you don't advise people to go with the play where you get the refund later as good as that field.

Right, when interest rates were at zero percent and there was nobody was making any money on CDs or money market accounts or anything, then I didn't have a problem with people getting a refund because they really weren't losing any money that way, truthfully.

However, now that.

Interest rates in money market funds and this will change, are at about four and a half or five percent, or there's places that you can put money that are safe and down and get a high interest rate. Who wants to give the government an interest free loan over a year's period of time of about five percent?

You have to be out of your mind. So you would be far better.

Off now getting no refund, paying what you need to pay and not paying over it. So just come out so it's a zero, and in the long run you're actually making more money. So that's how you make more out of less, to tell you the truth. So it's less of a refund, but in the long run, that extra money.

That they're keeping, you would just be able to take.

That money and put it in an account for yourself, maybe buy some bitcoin with it.

Just joking, all.

Right, Susie Orman, thank you so much for coming on. Good look on your next fission trip. I really appreciate you joining us. And that's gonna get everybody really pepped up and ready to do their taxes.

All right, talk to you.

All right? Oh you know what's funny? So Becky, we're gonna how you doing.

I'm good.

Did you learn anything there?

No, I don't own a big boat. I don't just little boats, and and I try and balance my taxes so it comes out even at the end of the year. But I do have advice for people that do get a refund and they need to donate it to conservation.

Oh there you go, yep.

And Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership would be a great place to put it too.

That's excellent. We're going to talk about that a whole bunch, but I gotta run. I'm going to run a couple of Michigan things by it, and an a neighboring thing and a neighboring thing from a neighboring thing from Wisconsin. Handful things we're gonna talk about. But just a funny letter that came in so Pat Dirk, and it comes on the show a lot the last Outdoor columnist. He wrote a newspaper column last week. This is a while ago.

Dave, that is one impassioned.

That is one.

I assume you read it as it was punctuated.

I tried to pat was taken to be a great T shirt. I have this T shirt of the guy that wrote in Yeah, the guy that wrote in the story about the just some unseemly behavior he was seeing among turkeys in his neighborhood, and I think that that might be a great T shirt. You've met Dave.

I'm sure I've met Dave all through your career through there are more than one Dave in Michigan family.

I'll translate that. I'll translate that and be that they've done so much do I need to translate it?

I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now you got the archery season, and you got the crossbow season, and you got the youth. See really the kids. And by the time it comes down to opening day in Michigan November fifteenth, the Big Hunt, I like he calls it the big Big Hunt.

Ye.

By the time the Big Hunt starts opening day of General Firearm, the kids have killed off all the big bucks. So if you're trying to wonder what happened all the hunters, that's it.

By providing special experiences for everyone, you may be diluting a singular experience that used to be for everybody. That was that saying, he who is a friend to all his friend to mine.

Oh and our memory gets a little cloudy too. Yeah, you know, I have a deer on the wall of one of the bedrooms in my home that my dad's first buck my dad shot in Michigan and it was a huge buck by his standards, it was a nine point about this big, you know, and the and the success rate back at that time when he shot that for firearm deer hunting in Michigan is about it was below thirty percent for the entire deer season. You know, Michigan has been over forty percent for quite a while

Yeah, but I.

Think greater fragmentation of the landscape right which is.

Yeah, a greater fragmentation we used to see in Michigan. Michigan carried most of their deer herd in the Upper Peninsula and the northern Lower Peninsula and everybody had their little hunting camps and the rest of it. Now the majority we kill more deer in southern Michigan than the up and Northern Michigan combined. It's just you know, we've seen this, you know, and not only Michigan. You see

Beg, you adn't do a good job. I introduce you. Yep, I'm gonna do that right now. Becky Humphreys is a long time biole. Just started her career at the US Fish and Wildlife Service, then worked her way up through the Michigan DNR too, became the director the Michigan Department of Natural Resources, spent time at Ducks Unlimited, ran National Ran an NWTF as the CEO for how many years?

CEO for five years?

So five years heading the National Wild Turkey Federation, and then right now and I owe you big thanks on this has stepped in as the interim CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership and there's a permanent search underway, but you, very graciously, at very short notice, came on board to run the organization during the interim. So oh, your huge thanks there.

Well, thank you. It's a great organization. As you know, we both sit on the board and you know when we lost our CEO and pretty you know, short order last last winter. It's one of those organizations you don't want to see flounder. You want them to have a great CEO and you want to to have great leadership. So it was an honor to be asked and ain't quite Frankly, I was feeling retirement pretty much. I'm gonna try again, Try try.

You'll you'll get to retire again. The last last call on Live tour tickets. So the live tour starts next week. You're listening to this right around tax Day. The live tour starts on on the twenty third. Live Tour starts on the twenty third. Hang on second, me pull this up? Yeah, who's got the who's got the dates? Hand here? I got it? One minute? One minute, damn it? Okay, ready April twenty third, we're gonna be in Mesa, Arizona, free people.

Yeah. A couple of things for folks searching for tickets, be sure to either go through the meteater dot com events page yep and hit those links, or the venues the venues only those two places. If you just type in these shows in the Google machine.

You'll want you want the resellers, and it.

Is grossly expensive. Yeah, so go go through the media dot com events page or directly to the theater that is hosting the show. And then, on top of that, if you want to try to win some tickets, there are pint nights hosted by b HI that proceed all of these shows where you can actually participate in meat Eater trivia. You can win a bunch of free stuff, including seats to the show.

And including a seat on stage playing the game right.

Well, yeah, but we got to find did we finalize the game?

Yeah?

Oh okay, yeah, get on stage, match your wits.

Uh oh. Also, when you buy a ticket, here here's the here's the ur Tidbut I'll throw in the last little thing. You can see it both ways, but when you buy tickets it comes bundled with the Meat Eater Outdoor Cookbook Wild Game Recipes for the Grill, smoke or camp stoven, Campfire Brand Spicketty new outdoor cookbook that we have out right now, And I've been struggle a little bituse I'm starting to put some pictures from the book up on Instagram, and I'm like, I put one up

What the hell.

Don't judge your book by its covering. Don't judge your book by the first spread.

Don't judge a book by the intro photos. Don't judge a book by the singed marmint.

I've been thinking about I've been waking up in the middle of the night and think about those fish cakes we made last week from the cookbook. And now I think I'm gonna wake up in the middle of the night and have this vision of a charred marmot.

Well, think about charred lemon gen and Tonics washing that charred marmot. Back, Becky, what you take on the gray wolf that just got killed in southern Michigan? How that transition?

That's a quick view turn. I don't you know, I don't know enough about that particular animal to speak to you. Just yeah, But I mean it wouldn't surprise me we wound up having a gray wolf that we had collared the Upper Peninsula that walked to Missouri.

Yeah.

Yeah, So I mean we'll.

That suck across the Mississippi.

Yeah, I mean it crossed a hell of a lot of territory between.

Do you think it ran on a bridge ice swim. That's a big swim.

It could be a big swim, but you know, who knows, you know, whether it probably you know they can swim, well, we know that, and we know they cross ice bridges whenever they're ice dams, and we know we know they'll cross bridges too, you know, when they when it's low activity and the rest of us.

So, but.

We've had we've had wolf sightings in the Northern Lower Peninsula during heavy freeze over you know, across across the ice.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so they come across the ice. We just haven't been able to see find a dinner or anything, you know, in the Northern Lower while I was still there. So it doesn't surprise me. I mean, we've had black bear in southern Michigan for well thirty years now.

Yeah, we've got a lot of black bears in central and northern Michigan.

You know, we do, we do.

The wolf was killed by a.

U.

The wolve's killed by a This is odd. Was killed by a guided coyote hunter. There was a guy on a guided coyote hunt killed an eighty seven pound gray wolf. They're holding the body. You know, grey wolves are federally protected Yeah, in there and they're holding the body for ANEE cropsy, and I think someone said, I think that we'll find that it was shot, but also checking its parasite load and maybe try to get some idea where it came from.

Yeah, they'll probably do DNA testing on.

It too, I'm sure DNA database, right, so they can tell who's breeding with who and where the kids go.

Before the show started, you and I talked about another Michigan thing I'd like you to speak to, and you said you were disappointed on it. I've communicated with folks from Michigan Nited conservation clubs on this. Is that that explain how coyote management just changed in Michigan?

Well, the Commission Natural Resources Commission just voted to close down the coyote season for several months of the year. Up until now, coyotes have been legal to be taken at any time.

But how far back does that go?

Oh, let's see. I probably we probably made that change in the eighties or nineties as coyotes moved into southern Michigan and populations, we really saw a big increase across you know, most of Michigan and across most of the Midwest coyote populations took off and people were seeing damage from them, depredation, and so with that we opened up, you know, the ability to take coyotes just about any time, all year round, and so this shuts it down for a period of the year.

Now here's let me give you my two different ways of looking at it. One hand. On one hand, I had a hard time getting worked up about it the change because I was sinking to myself. They are at they are pursued as a fur bear by travers, okay, travers and hunters, and if you go back any length of time, I mean before the real biggest population explosion in the South, I mean they were just like a state people for bear and we're viewed as such.

Right, that's true?

Uh, Red Fox, Oh, what season opens October fifteenth, whatever the hell it is. There's a season raccoon. Depending on where you're at in the state, you might have a November one opener on raccoon.

Quick content, Well, we have a beaver, beautiful coyote hide oh in in prime condition at like seven hundred and fifty bucks on the auction house oddities.

Right now, yep, right off this wall.

But to the point that you were making. It's taken during a season where that hide is prime prime, it's it's full of for because it's cold out December January.

Is that yours from Montana?

It's mine from Montana, from the winter season, from the wall to the studio.

It makes you realize that one of those is seven to fifty.

Good chunk of money.

Right now they're one, But there's there's are there?

Crianzy canna start now?

I'm going to start.

There's a time in the season where that high does not prime because it's warm and it's much more thin, and it would not command the same amount of value on like an open fur market.

Yes, and so I won't argue with you there. You don't want two points, Okay, all right? Number one?

That's the number one point. I couldn't get worked up

It was not coming from the hunters and the trappers, So you know it was coming from individuals who do not like the idea of year round killing of coyotes, and I think the commission was uncomfortable with that. But like you said, you held the same opinion I do. It's not coming from the segment that wants to have that population managed for maximum value out there. It's being taken because we don't like the thought of taking coyotes

You know, it's and it's a species that we really can't Yeah, it's put a dent down.

No, it's super abundant, and so you know, let's be realistic about it. You know, it's it's one of those situations where people might not like the thought of it, but it's it's part of reality that coyotes do get in trouble, they do cause depredation issues for people out there.

Doug Durren points out correctly, so that the pro argument for year round coyote hunting is it's a superabundant resource, and the anti argument it overlaps with that also where it's like it's a superabundant resource and hunting hasn't been proven to dent that resource, So why are you hunting it? Because hunting isn't managing the population.

Whatever you're doing is not working, right, I can see that are Yeah, Yeah, that's one of the that's like a little bit of a tongue twister when it comes to coyotes is you'll often have people point out that that with when you're hunting coyotes, you'll offset pack dynamics and it'll actually lead to fragmentation and more put production, meaning you'd have this this hierarchy that had some sort

I think it's less they love coyotes and they don't love the idea of killing.

K Yeah, I think so too. And it's not just coyotes, it's canines. I mean we see it with the wolf population too. We've listed in d lifts listed wolves over and over again in Michigan and the western Great Lakes population. And you know, the solution when we had depredating or when we had problem wolves that were getting in and causing problems, when we couldn't do lethal take, and there was a time when we couldn't, was to trap those wolves and move them. And where are you.

Moving them, Colorado?

You're moving them into the territory of another pack where.

They're going to get brutally.

It's a brutal death sentence.

You know.

I think, what interesting thing we just just saw it with this uh wolf that that got killed in southern Michigan is the success of the anti killing of wolf party is the death of an individual animal is a paper thin degree away from the extirpation of the species as a whole. So when you talk to somebody, well they just killed the wolf, they're going to kill all the wolves. Where it's like you just whacked a white tailed deer with your bumper for the seventh time this year.

No, And those charismatic species are special.

So who you going to vote for for president?

When you when you were at when you were Charisma, when you were at when you ran the the.

Fishing Game Department in Michigan. In a role like that, how do you grab like in a role like that, how do you how do you how do you got to handle partisan politics?

Well, you know, first of all, is a as a state employee, which I was. You've got to be real careful. You can't get engaged in partisan politics. You can't do you know, you can't do partisan fundraisers that tie your name into you know, advocating for one party or one candidate or another. You've got to be really careful with the Hatch Act that you don't engage in in advocating for certain issues that go to the public.

Do you stop did you just do you stop voting?

No?

You still vote?

No?

I still vote, Yeah, And I vote. I vote primaries the whole nine yards and always have always will. You know, it's it's my right to help decide who gets elected. And I think everybody should engage and vote how they feel most you know, the candidates that best represent their views.

But you keep quiet about it. Yeah, you know when you're in when you're in wildlife management at the state level.

Yeah, you really can't. You know, well, I'll be honest with you. I worked for both Republican and Democratic administrations, and you know, it's tough because there's a lot of fundraising that goes on as you get into campaigns and get ready for election years, and you and you wind up happening to be very careful. I was. I was lucky. I had a commission that helped do fundraising, you know, for gubernatorial elections when it was expected that cabinet members

Yeah, I wanted something spicier in that, Steve.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not frustrating anything you're saying. I just I feel that they're faded away. They're faded away from the areas where you hear from people.

I think they're faded away in our elected representation because you know, yeah, I don't think you know. And I think we hang with people that tend to share our views. You know, they share our activities. So I agree with you. I think there are a lot of folks out there that are like me. You know, when I talk to folks, they they express similar views. And I don't think it's just because they're trying to impress me that we're so much alike. I think they probably do. But both parties

I hang with people that share my activities, but then not the views.

Oh, I will agree with you there.

Yeah, some of my dear dear friends I feel have some just ridiculous viewpoints. I forgive him it because they like to fish. Well.

It mixed for interesting conversations.

And the older I get them more Now when I hear one, I don't even like I used to be like I'd want to argue it. No, No, I'm just like, that's funny.

Once you start that argument, it's ending the argument that becomes the problem.

Yeah, no, I look for I look for. I sort of am running this thing in my head. I was like, when you cut all the bullshit out, I think a good person, and you know, I'm like, yeah, man, they're a great person.

Well do I trust them? Do I trust them to leave the country or the state, or to make to make wise decisions?

Yeah? But then am I going to go ask them where I think where they think COVID came from or whatever? Now like I might ask where that fish they call came from? So in the so now right like you you've ran, you ran a big national conservation organization which everybody's heard of, Nation Wild Turkey Federation. You're at the helm right now of another federal policy conservation group TRCP. Yep uh, How does an organization? How do these organizations

It's just going to be a wonderful year.

We're gonna have the most expensive presidential election ever. And I don't know if that really says anything about that just might say something about the fact that every four years it's more expensive. I don't know, most expensive, hotly contested.

There are some records that I don't really pay much at times too, and when everything is like the most expensive we've had yet, I think that's sort of a function.

Of advertising expensive. In four years, it'll be the most expensive. It's every everyone has been the most expensed.

I don't think we're going get to a point in my adult life where we're like, man, this election is half the cost of last one, the least expensive election we ever had.

I think though, in state politics, especially some of these western states that do not have large populations comparatively, that's where those those numbers matter. Like I look at the amount of cash that's going to be spent and is being spent on the governatorial race right now relative to our size, Like the dollars per person, the dollars per person, and it's and they're going to spend it. Yeah, it's dollars, yes,

No, when Davy Crockett was running for Congress, he would do a little thing where if you came down and voted for him, you'd get a shot of whiskey. You could with the money they're spending, you could they could hand out bottles of whiskey.

Yeah, it is.

Expensive, and and elections and campaigns have gone to micro targeting, so they've segmented.

You know.

They can tell now how you vote. You know, even if you're in a state that you don't have to declare your party, they can tell by your voting record what you when you vote, which party you're most likely to vote for, and they know, you know, is it you know, are you a big fan of police protection or not? Are you where do you stand on right

That's really interesting you bring it up because the other day one of the we had a Senate a representative from a Senate candidate knock on the door wanting to speak to my wife. And when I informed him that she wasn't there, I thought, well, now I'm going to get the pitch. He just walked off.

That's amazing.

He knew, he knew who he.

Was there, he knew who he was there to talk to.

That's right.

So as you look at this, as you look at the landscape, like, how do you guys, how does the game work? Because here at TRCP yep uh speak from that seat or the NWTF seat whatever, no matter what administration comes in, you need to come. You're gonna need to go to the administration, right or to appointees or however, you're going to need to go there and and and say, uh, let's work together.

That's right.

So uh, but you can't you can't make a big bet in one direction and then when they lose you'd be like, I guess we're out of the game for four years.

Well you can't.

So you're what are you doing? Like, how are you? How are you doing this?

Well, a couple of things.

You know.

First, we and others in the conservation community, we being TRCP, sit down and identify our policy objectives. What are real priorities for us, you know, for the next administration, be it Biden to be at Trump too, and write those up so that we can share those with those those campaigns, because you're this next year is they're campaigning, they're forming

They knew it was going to happen. New to thinking on it.

Yep.

What do you run? You talk about like you have your plan for the next administration. You have to run like parallel two paths, right, because you might be looking at like let's say you're looking at you're talking about Biden too, Okay with that, you'd say, well, there's a clearer pathway to climate issues, there's a clearer pathway to wildlife overpasses through infrastructure spending, right yep.

But there was in the Trump administration too, Is that right?

Yeah?

Trump administration was very supportive of those migration corridors and they actually dedicated some funding to it. So both administrations are on that. But like Biden, we're looking at alternative energy. But the BLM solar plan, this is one that we have an editorial coming out on Joel's Gutten editorial on it. We're a bit concerned with Church with what they're identifying in terms of placement in those migration corridors for solar do.

You might talk to a lot of Idaho folks who are real, real fire out because the BLM plan in Southwest Idaho uy he downwhere Snort got bit. But there's also California big horn sheep super like the genetics for like that really wide ass mule deer buck that down in that country, and big old pronghorn sage grouse. It's a very sensitive area.

We're not opposed to alternative energy by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, we need to move into alternative energy.

And I think there's a huge misconception that if you're supportive of alternative energy, that you're supportive of it anywhere. And I think, like from someone who as a former TIERCP staffer, like the some of the like the sessions I remember of people really hand ringing and pulling their hair out or looking at maps of solar placement, and like there's people on the ground working for you know that we're supportive of alternative energy, but recognize the threat

And we can have both. I mean that's the thing when you look at the acreage requirements, we have more enough acreage outside those corridors. Now there might be other species and concerns or landscape characteristics, historical significance, you know, a range of issues, but nonetheless we need to take into account these really critical areas. We saw the same

Let me back up on the thing, and I'm not trying to drive you to give a drive you to give an answer you're not comfortable with, but I'm just not clear on it. Yeah, we talk about this this like administration planning. Do do you develop two or do you develop one? And like you develop one plan for the next four years and you're presenting it to each campaign.

No, we do two. I mean, for one thing, parties talk different language, They use different phraseology, even though they might have the same issue, but they talk about it in different terms. And so you want you want the particular party that you're going towards to embrace this and

They just are.

I mean, you know, by and large, you'll see more emphasis put on renewables with the Democratic Party, and security with oil security that's talked about more in Republican Now. In reality, we just we've produced more oil and gas in this country with each administration despite the party, in recent years, is that right, Yep, it's been ramping up.

I get a record high, right, yeah, in terms of oil produced in the US.

And people don't recognize that, but it's true. We have as part of our national security plan.

Gotcha, I understand what you're saying with tailoring it in that.

Yeah.

And there also and there's probably cases where you're gonna there's probably cases where you're going to drive at there's probably cases where you're you're asking for the same thing, but you're phrasing it as a different priority.

Yeah.

There was also issues you know, we tend to the Republican Party tends to be a little more states rights. Then the Democratic Party looks for national solutions on those issues. So you know, that's another way that you're taking a look at it. You know, during the Trump administration, we saw a nice expansion and hunting and fishing on national

Do you feel is there any rumor or anything around would Trump return to Barnhardt as his Interior secretary? Barnhart Bernhart, Sorry, it was David?

Is that David?

Yeah?

I don't know.

Hey, I do know that David has stayed very engaged in natural resource issues, and you know, he was very loyal to Trump throughout the administration and even afterwards. So you know, I I don't know, but I would assume he'll have some role in the administration.

I heard a a person very involved in conservation. I'm not trying to be like, you know, secret about someone, Uh take a private conversation and apply it to someone, but someone very involved in conservation had said to me that what they what they liked about Trump's Interior secretary Part two, the second Interior Secretary, was that he would save you a lot of time by saying, uh, buddy, you're not going to get anywhere on this with me, and it would allow you to focus on the areas

Yeah.

And he said it was it just was. It was efficient. Yeah, I mean to to to spend time and resource there because you never wound up being that you wasted a bunch of time on something that you didn't know that all of a sudden you're gonna read the newspaper that things went in the direction you didn't anticipate.

He was an honest broker in terms of telling you where issues were going if there was already a thought on it, so and and he he had researched issues also, so he had a pretty good handle on a lot of the conservation issues out there in that administration. You know, one of the things people probably don't realize is a lot of the staff support that comes in are the

We recently had a guest on talking about offshore wind offshore when you know electriacy generation, how do you yeah, wind power, wind power. At the end of the interview, I said, so, you know, when Trump wins in November, where is all this sit And he didn't have a great answer, but I felt like you could spend a lot of time working on something if you weren't being shrewd. You spend a lot of time working on something and then just have the rug ripped out from underneath you every four years.

Oh yeah. And that's why administrations work so hard to get re elected and have at least an eight year runway, because it takes, you know, it takes really a couple of years to get administration in and rolling, to get all your your appointments confirmed and in there, and start to implement that policy direction, and by then you're into

That's what I was going to ask is when, because both candidates would be their their last term, last four yep, right, So that's typically when, as you just said, like you get to capitalize on the earth promises, some of the campaign promises they got them elected in the first place, that's right, or one that independent constituency. Right, We're like, is there going to be such a restart if Trump were to win? Would it hinder that last four years of getting ship done?

Oh?

Like as yours? Yeah? With does the does the break? Does the four year vacation sabbatical interrupt the momentum that you would have had your second term momentum?

Yeah? Because what we saw right was like I think, like clean Water Act is always a great ping pong ball, right, Like God forbid we have somebody be like, yeah, some of that was okay, so we're just gonna return the pendulum to the middle, But instead you watch that pendulum go yeah, and it's it's.

We're seeing more more of that.

Yeah. Yeah, So like that's what I'm I'm wondering, right, is like the first two years are just going to be like knocking those ping pong balls all the way back over to one side.

Yeah, you know, yes, and no, I mean they're gonna if a new administration comes in, or even the current administration, they're going to have some individuals who do not you know, cabinet members and other appointees under secretaries who will not persist through the second term of the administration or with a new administration, they'll have to name a whole new cabinet and all those other appointed positions, and quite frankly, that takes a lot of time and energy.

So they'll or, as we've seen in the past, not appointing positions.

Yeah, that's right, right, that's right. Not appointing positions is also a tactic out there, having interim folks and acting folks.

That's an interesting tactic when you have divisions.

When you can't get somebody confirmed.

Well no, no, I mean that also, but when you just have areas in which you're not that interested, I think you'd like to see downsize it's just the appointment, that's right, and.

Leave lots of vacancies in the organization. Is there.

Is there an area potentially with say renewables or energy production nationally. UH that that both administrations kind of have more of an intersection or similar thinking on that you'd see as that uh as that issue might have national security concerns for example with solar or offshore or well.

Both administrations have been ramping up, you know, hydrocarbon production in the United States, so we're more self sufficient there. So that has been an ongoing trend as we talked about. You know, I think yes and no think. I think you're gonna see both administrations wanting to get into market based incentives that are out there. I mean, we've got to be able to make carbon part of the economy in order to treat it effectively. This is my two cents.

Eventually you're standing around being like, oh my gosh, it's.

A multi day fire, and then your chance of having fire escape from that. You know, you have winds come up in unexpected weather situations. When you have a big, big inferno going like that, you can't just kill it, you know, and so it's very difficult.

You're talking about disposing of of stuff from thinning operations because there's nowhere to go, there's nowhere to use, there's no way to use it economically. Yeah, it might be to you, so it just has to get torched.

It might be a salvage cut that goes in. You might have a severe ice storm that comes in and closes roads and closes trails. You need to get that down material out of there. It might be win throw. I mean, we have tremendous areas in the Upper Peninsula and Lower Peninsula Michigan where winds race across those lakes and they will you know, certain events will throw trees down.

Yeah, it's like an avalanche path on relative you know.

Or it could be a thinning operation where you're degrading that forest. You're getting so much fiber and so much ladder fuel that's creating fire damage, you know, fire hazard and damage for the future of that forest. So at that point you want to remove it, but you know, you want to remove it and be able to use that product if possible, And that's where we need to rebuild that infrastructure in some manner.

How do you as a as a federal policy organization or you know, or a conservation group with federal scope, national, national level scope, how do you guys come in and uh, is it okay to come in and weigh in on appointments?

Oh?

Yeah, I mean we're talking about like interior secretary like that that an administration when they when when when a when an administration picks it's it's secretary of the Interior. You're sort of like looking at just this hugely impactful appointment. It's going to be that's going to be your enemy, that's going to be your ally. Right? Is it Is there a pathway to come in and say, hey, that that choice ain't gonna work.

Yes, there have been in the past with the going in and saying, you know, this is just not an appropriate appointment given you know what this person has done previously or what they are saying publicly on it, or we have concerns about working with it. But typically what we try and do is way in early in terms of the types of expertise or major issues that we think are coming up that that the administration should look

Yeah, so you get a chance, you could like slide a resume over. Yeah, are you are you up for that job?

No?

No, you're not.

No, But you know, I went in and interviewed for Director of the Fish and Wildlife Service years ago, and that's how it was. I kept saying I wasn't interested in it, and it was like, we really want to talk to you, just come in and talk to us. So I flew in, talked to him for a day and told him who I thought would be really good, But it wasn't me. You know, we needed to make deep cultural change in that organization at that time, and I really thought it needed to come from somebody within

Uh, before we start recording you're talking about we were talking about when you hit you uh, you ran the you ran the DNR in Michigan. And then later we're asked would you like to be a commissioner, and you felt that that was inappropriate to have like a former, like a former department head sitting on the commission and having I don't know, what's a confused power dynamic.

Well, I think it's difficult. I think it's difficult for private organizations or nonprofits to have their past CEO sit on their border directors. Your border directors is your boss, and to have your predecessor be your boss puts you in an uncomfortable situation when you know there are key initiatives or changes that person made and you're recommending something different. I didn't have to deal with that when I was director.

I was more bringing that up to tea up to another thing, is you would said before we started recording to day, you're talking about what you're seeing in general. I'll have you put in your own words, but like a general erosion of commission authority? Can can you explain? Can you real quick tell people, you know, speaking from that you got fifty of these things like what are commissions and what do you mean by commission authority?

Well, commissions natural resources commissions, and they sometimes are called fishing game commissions, but typically they are appointed positions appointed by the governor and then they are the body that either hires the director of the Department Natural Resources or fishing Game or whatever it's called in that state, or they are the decision maker on hunting and fishing regulations.

Did they ask what your spirit animal was?

No, they didn't ask what my spirit animal was. They asked an awful lot of other questions, So I got to tell you. And but you know, that process of gathering public input on various regulations is really important, and we are seeing now more and more directors are selected not by the commission but by the governor. They become gubernatorial appointments, which occurred in Michigan when I was there. I was the last commission appointed and the first gubernatorial

Because they just didn't like what they were getting from the Commission because they wanted to be just like more an instrument of the administration.

Like, what is the push I think, you know, I think they you know, what I heard was you want direct accountability of your cabinet members. But I really think when you get into office and you name your cabinet, you want to be able to name those cabinet members so that they're all people that are affiliated in helping move your agenda forward. And what the second thing that has happened with that, though, is the tenure of agency

Yeah, or or uh in or factions of industry meaning commercial guides and guides and outfitters, commercial interests, agriculture.

You need where you're.

Trying to strive for some level. And I think that and I've heard and maybe it's just a tradition in Washington, but regionality, Yeah, I think you see specified regionality as well. Yeah, because so many from the you know, west of the Cascades, East of the Cascades, that's right.

Sorry, But with that, what we're seeing is those commissions are both their authorities getting nit back, you know, sometimes through state law that you know, legislators are trying to enact laws on taking of game and fish species or the method of take, and then the other way is they're losing their authority to a point, also a point a point your director.

The director, Yeah, got him? And you generally are uneasy with this, I am.

I think it creates more partisan politics into the natural resource arena, and I think it creates more of these shifts. And just like we talked about with executive orders that swing so far one way and then the other way, you know, that's that you waste a lot of time and energy.

Yeah, like ladies and gentlemen, we're all in on renewables. Then ladies and gentlemen, we're all in on high.

Slow down the pendulum a little bit.

Yeah.

Uh, just I got a last question for you that's a little more oplicated, but uh, just an observation about the wild pendulum swings on. I mean, people like the bitch about gridlock, but I always like to remind folks that this is quite intentional. You know, we could be like Venezuela. You know, hey we're communists, and then like a couple months later, hey we're ultra right, Hey we're back to communists. I mean, those are you know, when people bitch about gridlock, I can have a.

Little effect on your bank account.

When people bitch about gridlock and all this, it's like it's this is intentionally constructed that we don't go down wild ass that you can't harness the moment and going wild directions all the time. Right, And so I don't like, I get aggravated about the things that I want to happen that don't happen quickly. But in general, it's like it's as some stability.

The other people's stuff is going just as slow.

It's better. Yeah, So if I don't get what I want and they don't get what they want, I feel okay about it.

Our issues tend to do really well though, during gridlock. So you know, here's the other part of it is, we might get frustrated, but we are usually highly effective when Congress or state legislatures cannot agree on issues. Our conservation issues usually do really well because.

You can be the awesome person who says, hey, I got something that everybody like, Yeah, exactly right.

There's no like hot button social issue wrapped up into it.

Well, that's right. I mean in DNR, we used to call ourselves the Department of Fun that doesn't want to support the Department of Fun. I mean, you have hunting, you have camping, you've got timber industry, you've got fishing and hunting and wildlife viewing. So I mean, but most of our legislation we work in a bipartisan manner. Anyhow to try and get things so that you have both sponsors of bills on the right and the left, and and introduce thos and try and keep them fairly evenly matched.

They need to have something that they need to bring you. I supported this bill.

That's right.

Uh, here's the one is here's one. It's more complicated. It's not complicated. Answers is complicated to ask.

Uh.

Everyone loves to talk to Gripe about ballot box biology, ballot box initiatives. And also I find this is an area that really accentuates a lot of hypocrisy. Meaning I'm very supportive of the ballot initiatives that guarantee the right to hunt trap and fish. Okay, So I'll be like, hell, yeah, vote yes, this is November for your states right to

Can get the uninformed mass to vote your way. It's a great thing.

So people love right, like everybody complains about it, But they complain about it only when there's a ballot box initiative that they hate. And when there's ones they support, they're getting out the vote.

Well, it's like people don't really complain about judicial activism when the courts are finding in their favor.

Sure, you know. Yeah, So here's the question that's that was just the observation. Is it really is there more of this now than there was? Or is it just always been this way? I mean, is it really more ballot box biology and ballot box?

What what?

Wildlife?

Man?

Yeah?

I think we go through waves, to be honest with you, I think there are periods. You know, when I think back through my career, there were periods where we had ballad initiatives that we fought and that we supported, and then you'll have a quiet period for a while, and then it creeps back up again. So it's usually when there's an action and a reaction that's out there and.

Oh, like, I'll show you that's right, I'll give you a ball.

But we have seen some of the national challenges towards hunting and fishing. We have seen those been direct campaigns that are now being fought at the state level. So I think you see more activity to try and restrict and also promote hunting and fishing at that state level than we used to do. Where it used to be, you know, we had more national legislation and the rest of it, and so there's more activism at that state level.

So that is thing. Yeah, I think so, because you were saying earlier that big box, all the giant big box and no one after him might have been a bat might be faulty, memory might be faulty. But the days back when they weren't ballot box initiating wildlife decisions is new ish. Yeah, I you know, it's expanded.

You know, I remember we had we had some back in the seventies, but then really in the nineties it really came alive and then we've kind of seen it dining down and now it's you know, we had periods across the country where there was a big push to to do ballot initiatives to protect the right to hunt and fish, and now you're seeing challenges again.

Yep.

So and we're seeing a big push right now in several states for trying to advocate for these commissions to have appointments that are non hunters and even anti hunters, an angler.

Zoo keepers.

Yeah, we got a uh, everybody's got an test in the state's wildlife, so we need to have those interests represented on the board. Unfortunately, like that, never you never get to ask the question, well are there interests not being represented currently by our current management plan? We never get to ask that. So what what is the impetus?

Right?

M hm?

Well, yeah, I mean they're managing far more species that aren't one hundred and fished than are and have been for quite some time. Yeah, let me give you one last question, and then these guys might have a last question. You're not going to do the who are you voting for? Again? How do you handle that?

I'm voting for my daughter, she's running for county commissioner?

Nepotism?

How do you handle that question? Let let let's let's roll play for a minute. I'm uh okay, I'm I'm uh running for president okay. And and some we're having a meeting about agenda. He said, hey, I want to hear from the big conservation groups about what you guys are thinking. And I'm crafting my thing. And we finished out the meeting, and and like you and I meet in the hallway and I'm like, well, can I plan on your support this November? Becky? Now you do your part.

If it's a candidate that I was already planning to support and I felt was the best candidate, I would probably let that individual know that I was going to support them personally.

First, I don't have your vote. I don't have your votes to do that.

No, I'm still deciding, but at this point I'm not leaning towards this.

But you know, that's what you'd say.

It depends on the situation. If I was in representing TRCP at the meeting, I wouldn't answer it at all.

But how how okay, how do you answer it? That's why I'm trying to the role play here. We are, You're representing TRCP, and I say I'd like to know that I could count on your support this November. I'm just like, how do you do it?

I'm interim CEO of the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, which is a nonprofit. Legally, we cannot support partisan candidates.

Hard argu trap me. Okay, that's good, that's good. I'm just helping you rehearse because this might happen to you. Oh, I know, here's the last one. The last one I got from you, Where should people Where should people be paying the most attention in the next four years If we're talking about just conservation with a big c right like not not local, not necessarily local issues like oh they messed with our elk management plan, but like big picture your kids are going to feel the impacts of this.

Well, a couple of things I think they really need to pay attention to. Number one one is we talked

Got it all right? So thank you for sharing. You want to ask vote for me November. I will tell you you know what you wouldn't do it for me. But I'm gonna tell you right now you can count on my support, all right.

All right, I hope Terry's support.

Anything else, guys, thanks for thanks for coming on and thanks for all the work that you're doing.

My pleasure. We've got a great team at t r c P, which you certainly know and and all of you do, and they do great work, and they and they tackle the big problems, you know. I think that's the thing that tr CP I feel most strongly about. A lot of organizations play offense or defense on law some policies, but TRCP really builds this think tank model where they pull all the groups together and do the energy to try and build good policy direction and then

Well, what, sorry, what do we gain by supporting a group like TRCP, Because it's not a membership organization.

No, it's not.

It's not a membership organization. Most of our funding, about two thirds of it comes through grants and foundations and then personal donors and family foundations that donate on restricted revenue. But what you're bringin from it I think is the coalition pulling the organizations together around common ideas, big picture ideas, and then doing the legwork to really invest and figure out how we're going to solve those problems.

Well, I appreciate the life you've spent in conservation, and I appreciate you're measured, rational, well articulated perspectives on things.

And then well thank you sir.

Yeah, oh that'll that'll. This will inoculate us from some of the nonsense that we're going to hear between now, from all directions it's between.

I know, I know it's it's going to be a tough year in that regard. It really is going to be a tough year.

Well, hang in there. Well, maybe after the election you can come back and then tell us what you think.

No, I'm I'm hopeful after the election, I'm going to be retired. That's right, you re retired, retired, retired, I get it right.

This time we'll pipe you in like Susie or from.

Your thirty five football that's right, all right, thank you very much, beg you special.

Lot of hard praise the seand pattern. Hey, they they always chant to love me all throughout the fall.

When it comes to springtime, they start dropping luck.

They they only want for my hunt, and they only want before a fish.

And.

They only want before the mouth. It's they come around and.

They only want fort and they only want before the sand tail crank. They want before the lactail buck, sandering neck, the real grand They only want forma hunt in.

Only end hunt and seize me. They always found a reason to love me and leave me for the next. In love, they'll say that they're sorry that you just don't have time.

Oh, it's kind of funny, I guess if I, Oh, we shot the book, have been waiting for my time.

They only want forma hunt. They only want for a fish. They only want before.

Oh, there's bot they come around Acra.

They only want before night. They only want before the same to print. They only won't before the oct up.

By sound green maccas prints. They only want for fight. I know it took me a while to find leach after they tagged out that they.

But now I know.

They're gone on and Smile.

They're gone on Smile, shallow wolves, they're gone on.

Stove smut.

There's pups come around Everca.

They're going on in smile family. They're gone on the stove, Santo cran Bocco. They're gone, snow waped.

Down Samarineck spoery of gran So they're going.

On the smile over my honey,