This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You can't predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for ELP. First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light dot com, f I R S T l I t e dot com. Today, we're making good on a promise we have back in our studio.
Historian and author Hampton Sides, who joined us on an episode to ninety eight what number we on?
No?
Five five thirty something by forty something.
Joined us a long time ago on an episode probably the best name to episode we ever had, cooking Captain Cook, and at that time we were we kind of went through, uh, Hampton. We went through your what do you call one's collection of books.
Your body of work, you're that's something. There's a couple of extra.
We went through his body of work, and towards the end of the interview, we're kind of Throughout the interview we talked about what you're working, what right, what you then were, what you then were working on now, which was a book about Captain Cook. And I think that even at the time I had shared with you that I had been to Hawaii, been to Hawaiian passed By where Captain Cook was killed, where he ultimately met his end, and I was there last week, and kids.
Wow, you're so tan. Now now I understand why.
We had a laugh where I said to my kids, were driving by fishing for on os the wahoo, which they call os in Hawaii, and I yelled to my kids over the very loud boat engine of my friend's diesel boat engine and yelled, that's where Captain Cook got killed. And my kids, half paying attention, one of them said, oh awesome, and that became kind of the joke for the day. But so we said we're going to come back, that we were going to have you back when you
finished your book. And the book is now out and available publishes on April nine, called The Wide Wide Sea Imperial Ambition, First Contact and the Fateful Final Voyage of Captain James Cook. And if you are interested in pre contact contact era Alaska Hawaii, which wind up being coupled together in unexpected ways. Still today, I find so much cross cultural exchange between Alaska and Hawaii. They kind of have a Pacific thing going on. This book explores it.
We're going to discus Austin UH today. I haven't. I usually try to. I do a pretty good job. I usually try to read read books before we talked about them. But I haven't gotten to it yet. But you have such a trusted track record, I'm just gonna come out right now and say it's good.
Well, that's good to hear. There's nothing worse than those who claim they've read it and then you find out they haven't. You know, so your honesty is appreciated.
No, I can't. I can't lie to you, but I can just based off your your body of work, your oo, based off your ouvoy, I can tell everybody it's great. And we're going to dig in on it, and we're going to discuss the conflicting reports of of uh, whether or not Captain Cook was indeed consumed. When we talked about Cook and I didn't know the did you tell us the details of it last time?
About the I think we hinted at it, but I wasn't drawing.
To a little heart detail.
Yeah, yeah, we may have mentioned it. We'll get into it a little conflicting accounts, yes, conflicting accounts, But I just wanted to just say thank you for getting the name right, Captain Cook. So many people have said to me, oh, you're writing a book about Captain Hook.
Oh, you know the pirate we'd had you on a long time ago.
The parrot on his shoulder, you know, the that's probably Steve's kids thought he was talking Captain Hook.
He was bad guy, Captain James Cook. You know, I find it when we get into the heart story, I'll touch on this more, but I find that I'll touch on it fully right now. We're gonna tell a heart story in a little bit. We got to a couple things to touch on first, and then, uh, you're familiar with who was it? Was it Gall after the Battle of a Little Big Horn? I think it was Gall. Papa Sue Warrior after the Battle a Little Big Horn. I believe he claimed to he told some people that
he had eaten a bite of Tom Custer's heart. So George Armstrong Custer fought and died with his brother at the Battle a Little Big Horn, and Tom Custer had once arrested like took into custody. The Sioux warrior Gall and pissed him off, and he claimed in the years after the battle, he claimed to have taken a bite of Tom Custer's heart, and then later, maybe on second thought,
said no, I was just kidding. So was he telling the truth when he said he's just kidding, or was he telling the truth when he said he took a bite of Custer's heart.
Whenever I do something like that, I mean not Oftentimes, if I change my story, it's because I'm embarrassed by what I initially admitted to.
And I, yeah, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I didn't really know how you're going to receive that. So he had a Gall had another quote, we're not here to talk about battle, little Egghorn. But Gall had another quote where, man, he said a bunch of things. He's the one that said how long the battle took? That it took about as long as it takes a hungry man to eat
his meal. And then later a crow scout for Custer later said, no, I was there, but I got away, and Gall said to him, you must have turned into a bird if you're saying you were there and you got away. Oh, you know what, this is the final So this is the final mention. There was a big debate about whether or not see I made up this new saying. It's a new old saying. A fresh set of eyes will find more beans. And we've talked about
it a fair bit. People have. I thought it had app you know, finance applications, but we heard from people who were playing it in the medical field finance. I thought it was catching on, yeah, law forensics. Yeah, I thought it was really catching on, and people were trying down on their wives and pissing their wives off. And we made the shirt, but the shirt didn't sell out, which makes me think this didn't catch on.
Well, No, I think it was a timing issue. I think that if we would have had the shirt earlier.
You see my shirt film. Yeah, oh like the shirt, like the saying had come and gone. Well not, I don't think old sayings do.
We can't see the bottom of your computer. Yeah, that looks great.
They they've I think they've like sixty something percent sold out. We didn't make that many, so go get them. Folks who maybe.
Don't looking at that shirt and trying to figure it out without reading any of it.
And I just thought it was like a political or rival might be tiptoe into like it looks like you're yeah yeah, yeah, like it might be like a little revolutionary yep, uh it was, uh yeah, other other areas there. I was telling a story about being out a bus in Memphis, and someone said, you always gotta be careful when you tell Memphis but stories. But yeah, the fist, you know, yeah, yeah, okay, Oh, here's the interesting thing
that's out. This is cool. You guys might remember when we had a bunch of the anthropologists and archaeologists on after doing our Bison Clovis point experiment where we worked with researchers from Kent State for that's about Kent State.
Research was from Kent State, Southern Methodist University, Oregon State University, right yeah, and they were doing we were doing research, and we were the participants in the research where we butchered an entire gutted, butchered, boned out an entire buffalo using ice age style stone points, particularly using Clovis points and other flakes, and butchered the whole damn thing. I thought we were gonna be there into the night. I brought I brought like lighting. I think we'd ever get
out of there dude, we're done in four hours. Pusher the whole thing out in order to that the researchers could then do the serious work of analyzing after they were cleaned up. Our friend John Hayes from Hayes tax at Deermy Studio did the bone work on it in order to help interpret ice age kill sites. Meaning when you go to an ice age kill site, twelve thousand years go by and all this left is chunks of
bone and chunks of stone, nothing else is left. You can't talk to anybody, all the soft tissues gone, things have been gnawed on by animals. So we were providing. We were helping to create a sort of set of stone and a set of bone where they knew what happened to the stone and bone, and you could take this information and help analyze ice age kill sites. Meaning when you see that mark on a bone, what led
to that mark on a bone? When you see a stone, when you see a chunk of stone flake maybe embedded in bone, or or a chunk of stone tool that had broke and was discarded and it's laying there and you're thinking, well is that there because they used it to kill the animal and it's laying inside their ribcage or was that laying there because they use it to cut up an animal? Meaning did they maybe find an animal and cut it up? Did they kill an animal
with projectile points? When we see a Clovis point, we think that it was on a spear. Is there a chance that that Clovis point was actually a knife? These are all great mysteries, and anybody's the papers out now. I got excited for a minute when I got that form letter. It had me down as doctor. Steve even said it's just a form letter, though, and I made the mistake of insulting Seth by saying, how everybody is? I already told Seth this and apologize to him. I
don't know what this means. I said, everybody was doctor, even Seth? The hell does that mean?
I think the implication is somewhat obvious, even Seth.
I sent it a craction and I said, hey, just heads up. You know you got a lot of people down as doctors that ain't. And he said, no, that's just a form letter from the journal. Don't worry. You won't be credited as being a doctor. But Randy, you could actually be a doctor. Well, if they just three years for some reason. Yeah, next time. So the article's out, we're how do you find it, Krin.
We're going to have a link to the article in the show notes, and we're also gonna have it prominently on the website.
So yeah, study is massive, over twenty thousand words. For you people that used to read The New Yorker bag in the nineties, that would be a big that's like a that's like when they do like the history of dirt in the New Yorker. Twenty thousand words, thirty one figures, twelve data tables and eight supplemental data files. That's supposed to get people excited, Krinn, that's supposed to get Google fires. This from people at home are like, wow, thirty one figures.
Ordinarily only get three supplemental data files.
Those are for all the nerds out there.
Yeah, Chrins, you get a job writing copy.
No.
Twenty thousand words, thirty one figures, twelve data tables and eight supplemental data files.
Call now, now most of that, most of that is from Meton. I asked him to put in what he thought would be important to highlight and that I mean that that that sums it up for people who speak the science language.
But uh so worried about that. It's fascinating and I liked it and I want to do more, and we slept. What we needed to do is I wanted to do the MOE where we caught up a person because hey, listen, Clayton sent me an article the other day about out of Prince Wales Island in the caves finding ten thousand year old bare bones, and I think you said something about some human remains that seemed to have been gnawed on, and I'm like, gnawd on ten thousand years later? You
sure it wasn't something else? Live Tour. Live Tour kicks off April twenty third. What's it right now? Ninth, tenth, eighth, eighth, whatever the hell? Live Tour kicks off April twenty third, Mace, Arizona. From Mace, Arizona, we go to We do April twenty third is Masa, Arizona at Mesa Arts Center. From there, we do three shows in California. So we're creating a safe space for hunters and angers in California where you can come share your real lived experience about being a
hunter or an angler. San Diego and Sacramento go to Salt Lake City, Boise, Missoula, Portland, Tacoma. I missed anything, Maca, Spokane. Yeah, so it goes like this, check me on this Mesa, San Diego, Anaheim, Masons, San Diego, Anaheim, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, Boysey, Missoula, Spokane, Spokane, Portland, Tacoma. Mister Clay Nukeomb will be there for all the shows.
We've got a lot of other people coming in and coming out, coming going, Bro, are you gonna make it for You're gonna come over for the Missoula show for sure. Hell yeah. Every ticket gets a signed copy of the Meat Eater Outdoor Cookbook, which is a brand new release. Actually the tour is during the release week, so every ticket comes with a signed copy. We're gonna have you'll learn stuff, you'll laugh, You'll you have a POTENTI to
win some great stuff. So looking forward to seeing everyone there. Also, we got a new thing going me Eater Experiences. So this kuy of a long story. I don't want to spend too much time on it. I've been spearfishing down out of Venice, Louisiana, and I became friends with Renee Cross at Cypress Cove Marine and lodge and we hit on this idea we're gonna take over his whole place and do a big fishing party. So that's kicking off
in October. Me He's gonna be down there, Yanskna be down there, Klay's gonna be down there, a bunch of other people coming and going, and we're filling up spots for that. You can go sign up to come down. We're gonna clean fish together, fish together, do stuff at night, have a lot of talks, a lot of laughs each Each setup is three days of fishing offshore inshore April fifteenth.
You can go check out those me Eater experiences at the me Eater and then we also have a waterfoul one coming up in the winter which should be able to check out as well. Uh. Pad Dirkin wrote in pad Dirkin remains the only man in the world who's wolf neutral, so we like to check him with wolf neutral people now and then. Yeah, they just don't have a real soapbox the wolf neutral person. Is it an
agnosticism or no? No, it's like, uh no, well not apathy, because that would imply not staying up with the Yeah, pad Dirkin is the only guy in the world that can listen to wolf stuff from either side and be like, it'll work out.
He doesn't fly into a rage either way.
He Uh, what what Pat got wanted by this is that risk of annoying you? Yet another wolf neutral column, This one explained his column He's out our columnist. This one explains why how Wisconsin's hunter trapper hunters and trappers killed two eighteen wolves in three days in February twenty one, but needed ten weeks to kill two hundred and fifty
seven wolves in twenty thirteen. Mystery being the number of wolves on the landscape didn't change, he says, mostly though, my review springs from a conversation with Al Hofacker, my first boss at Deer and Deer Hunting magazine in the early nineteen nineties, who nearly died last year from the tick born disease which I have not heard of. This is me editorializing. I'm reading Pat, but I'm editorializing by me to have not heard of it. Babe ciosis. Anyone heard of this? Babsiosis, babasiosis.
I just looked it up and it infects red blood cells.
Now I got I got waylaid bad by uh trick or no, I got bad by tricknoses. I got waylaid, I got waylaid somewhat bad by trickinnosis, and waylaid bad by lime. And my boy got waylaid so bad by lime he developed Bell's palsy, milk could run off the corner of his mouth.
Horrible.
Uh, that was long editorization. Back to Pat quote. He got me laughing when he said he'd rather die in a wolf attack because it would cause less suffering, while making him famous as get this, people, the first Wisconsin knight in history killed by a wolf, meaning that's yet to happen. That inspired us his pat still talking. This is an interesting tidbit that inspired me to dig into Wisconsin's costs damages from tickborn diseases versus wolf attacks on livestock, pets,
and bearhounds. Guess what, Wisconsin. Guess what their costs and damages are from tickborn diseases annually. I'm gonna beat the table. I'm gonna beat this book on the table for this twelve million annually in ticks native wildlife. The tick costing Wisconsin twelve bill an Now, take a stab at over the past five years the average annual cost of wolves. I can't really beat the book about this. No, you
can beat a book about how low something is? Right, Yeah, one and seventy seven thousand dollars or I don't know what pats? And again I started to feel like Pat's not wolf. I think Pat's a wolf apologist dressed up in sheep's clothing, Cambell, He's masquerading as a wolf neutralist. Twelve million in tick damages one hundred and seventy seven grand and wolf damages whatever, Pat whatever? Pat the last
of the outdoor columnists. We should be nice to Pat Durkin because when he dies the old outdoor columnists, I don't even want to say it. The pet's far from death. He still runs marathons, and I shouldn't say that. Yeah, I should put a tick in his put put a tick in his underwear or something. And while it'd be like how you like them ticks? Now, Pat? Maybe like did I say I didn't? Did I say I like ticks?
In episode five eighteen, you were talking about old fur price list that had bobcat wildcat links and links cat pricing and wondered why they had so many different names for bobcats in those days. This is when we had a links researcher on. Carmen van Bianki from Home Range Wildlife was on talking about a project in the Washington state of collaring links, which I need to They caught four mm. They caught three males and a female. I need to announce the other two winners have dang it.
They caught four. They're all done for the year. They're very happy to get a female. Linx and this guy shed. This guy says he was talking to old fur buyer, third generation fur buyer, and he had an explanation for why all this crazy nomenclature. He told me that in the old days, wildcat was the general name for any of the smaller wildcats like bobcat, lynx, and oslot. So the sort of bucket term was a wildcat, bobcat, lynx, oslat Linx was what was used in the old days.
So we're talking about, you know, you go back to the twenties and thirties. Lynx was used for what we still call links today. Bobcat was used for western and coastal bobcats that tend to have dull colors and coarser fur. Linx cat was used for the brighter colored with more silk like fur found on Western bobcats, like high planes. Western bobcats the ones that are super valuable today. They did this because of very noticeable differences between Western bobcats
and those Eastern coastal bobcats. So at the time they believe there are different species. Meaning if you look at a bobcat from Michigan all dull, no good spots, and a bobcat from high elevations in Nevada, you'd be like, well, they can't be the same thing. They gotta be different, So they just call them these different names. Now people would catch them and get excited when they see bobcats or whatever listed for super high price, so they came up with this different name just to try to denote
different fur qualities qualities, he says. The Idaho Fur Sale still lists Western and Eastern bobcats in different categories on their sale average price list. This is so trappers still can have a better idea what their bobcats should sell for, since the Eastern bobcats will be lower than the overall average results, giving Eastern trappers a false high expectation and
Western trappers a false low expectation of what it's all worth. Hence, when you're looking at something You're like, how did they have all these cats in those days that no one knows about anymore. I don't want to spend time on this, but Krin thought this was interesting. This is pretty common that someone dies you put their ashes and shotgun shells.
I didn't know that was.
Common among a small group of people.
Meaning.
We've ever talked about it.
But I have heard of it. Hunter Thompson, Hunter S. Thompson had his loaded in like artillery shows. Sorry, where's that big shell behind est?
Back there?
Yes, on the load we put all this in that.
Yeah.
I feel like you've talked about ways that you'd like your remains to be used to change so that it's not included, and you don't want to.
I thought it was you want to become a piece of carrion.
Well, I did want to get scavenged by bears. But I'm kind of thinking now. I was looking at the prices to get buried in the Twin Lake Cemetery where I grew up. You get in the ground in for six hundred bucks. But if you want to get back out, guess they charge if you want to get out six hundred to get in thirteen hundred to get out. That's not bad. No, to change your mind a lot more for an exhamation. Someone changes their mind. I got to fork over thirteen hundred to get you back out of
the ground. I might do that. I'm gonna go there and look next time I'm over there. A guy rode in a big explanation of why we shouldn't be dogging on these monkey farms are trying to put in down South, getting everybody all worked up. People in Texas are worked up, people in Georgia are worked up about these giant mo monkey farms they're building to supply the research facilities. Turns out no one gets excited about a monkey farm in their neighborhood, but he gets into some of the things
that are going on. The US medical world is in critical need of Reeseius macause China has halted. He's talking about here's why this is going on. China has halted a large number of exports of these primaries primates to the country in retaliation of the current trade wars with the US, which are gonna get a lot worse. Next November, no next January, January sixth, when when Trump's back in office, is gonna get a lot. The trade wars are gonna
not worse. The trade wars are going to intensify when Trump's back in office, and I imagine it's going to lead to probably even fewer monkeys running around. And then there's another thing that what was the earth thing? You said, there's another thing leaning to all this monkey problem. Come on, help me out here. You put it down.
The USDA said, Now, well, I'm not sure what's in your mind that.
Monkeys supplying demand.
Yeah, it's like there's there was some producer and monkeys right here, the minerals.
Yeah, there were some geopolitical things that led to this monkey crisis. So when you people are saying you don't want a monkey farm next door, keep in mind that there were geopolitical constraints that have led to the Reese's monkey shortage. Right.
And here's the The USDA sends inspectors who are vets at random times, unannounced, at least once a year.
He was selling us on how safe these monkey farms are. Right then he said, don't use my name, you know, but it's.
Not it's not it's not for that. He just doesn't want to be attacked by you know, wealth.
The reesis mccaus are vital for testing vaccine efficacy, novel cancer treatments, and various other life saving research projects that most are one universities and pharmaceutical companies. As someone who has worked in biomedical research for all of my career for t ten universities, I can tell you that the need for these primates is indeed very dire. So when they go to put a big monkey farm in your yard, keep that.
In mind, humans versus monkeys.
They need to round up those wild ones running around in Florida.
I did not I did not pass judgment on the need for Reese's monkeys. I just said, and I just said, it sure seems like people don't want monkey farms down the road. Yep, that's abundantly clear. People freak the classic nimbiism. But he goes on to say, I can tell you one thing that ain't gonna happen is these monkeys ain't gonna be getting out. And biosecurity is taken in very
seriously with tons of oversight from the federal government. So if you trust them folks at the federal government, this is not He's just saying, this is not like a little like it's not like a hobby monkey farm.
Gone and shut it down.
It's like, yeah, it's a it's a highly regulated tons of oversight, meaning I don't think these people should plan on being like, oh God, there's a monkey in the yard. You never know, never know. We put on hold. We're gonna talk all this later. Probably about a dozen people wrote in with like, here's how I needed my own cat than that.
Actually, yeah, we're.
Gonna put that on hold in order to talk more about cap and Cook again. Ham, if you forgot Hamp the sides is your author of the brand new The Wide Wide Sea? First off, why the Wide Wide Sea? The name it is big it's.
A quote from Coloradge who wrote this poem, you know, the rhyme of the ancient mariner and uh, scholars.
That.
Sounds like something's that one would do. No, it was just it's Uh. Colors was influenced by Cook's three voyages around the world. And uh uh it's about a captain who's got having an existential crisis, which Cook was on this third voyage. Because the book is about his third voyage.
He had final voyage, his.
Final voyage literally and figuratively, and uh, things do not go well, as you allude to earlier. Near the end of his voyage, things go horribly wrong and he is you know, hacked to pieces on the beach in on the big island of Hawaii. So so's it's a title just sort of getting that the psychology of a captain who's a little tired, who's having some problems medical, medical, mental, physical, and maybe even spiritual.
You know, can you can you blained? This is set just to set it up, can you give me his give us his time frame? And and just quickly, what were the first two voyages? Yeah, like where where he's from? And when?
And and well you know, so you do so Captain Cook. I mentioned earlier that I think a lot of Americans get him mixed up with a lot of other captains sort of real and imaginary, whether it's you know, Captain Kidd or Captain Hook, Uh, Captain Kirk, Captain Kirk of the of the of the what which is it's you laugh? But uh? In fact, Captain Kirk was influenced by was influenced by, I mean, was actually based on Captain Cook
uh and real. So his first voyage was the Endeavor instead of the HMS Endeavor you know it was the US S Enterprise. Uh and Captain James Kirk Captain James Cook. So yeah, I mean there is there is a direct correlation.
What I thought you said you're writing a book. I thought you were having a problem where you're writing a book about Captain Cook and people are like, oh, I love star start right right.
And then there's, of course there's Captain Crunch.
I got a bone to pick with that on bitch, because when you eat laceration, yeah, you can run through a box like that.
I remember those days a lot of sugar. So Captain Cook was probably the quintessential Enlightenment era explorer, one of the greatest explorers of all time, no matter what you think of his voyages were, or him as a man or of course, he's very he's very controversial today, especially indigenous people all over Polynesia have decided they hate him and that he's a symbol of colonialism, and they ripped down his statues everywhere.
But back then and for well, they did a little bit of exploring themselves.
They were masters at it.
When you say back then, what was his like time period?
His time period was his voyages were in the seventeen sixties, in the seventeen seventies.
That's an era that me and Randall are intimately familiar with in Tucky. Okay, Yeah, that was a thrill out of the Long Hunters.
Yeah, that's about the only place he didn't get to, right, But that's.
How we focused there. We didn't want to overlap with the work.
Yeah. But he, I mean, what's great about him, what I love about him is that he came from virtually nothing, unlike a lot of these captains who had money or influence or connections. He got there by sheer hard work and intellect and genius and came up as he was a poor farmer who apprenticed to become a to be part of the Merchant Marine.
But British born, British, British in Yorkshire, and he was really good at everything that to do with navigation, astronomy, cartography, and he ended up that's really his true genius was maps.
He made beautiful maps, maps that are like chillingly accurate, often on the fly. He mapped Nova Scotia, and if you super impose a satellite image of Nova Scotia on the map that he made of Nova Scotia back then in the seventeen hundreds is just exact. It's like, how did he do it?
Just with celestial navigation and handheld equipment right, like right, astrolabes.
And surveying tools and triangulation and trigonometry, you know. But so his first two voyages around the world were first to search for this great super continent that was all these scientists believe there had to be this massive continent in the southern hemisphere to counter balance all the land masses that are predominantly in the Northern hemisphere.
Counterbalance in weight.
Yeah, they actually thought that the planet would spin off in endo outer space.
It wasn't a good balance sphere.
Yeah, it was just it's a crazy idea.
It's like getting the getting the leads on your tires, right, yeah.
Yeah, It's like Terra Australis incognita, which was the name of this mythic super continent that did not exist. But Cook was sent to show to find it, and he did find Australia. It had been spotted by another guy named Abel Tasman before, but he charted the entire east coast of Yeah, that's where we get Tasmania.
Hung his name on Tasmania.
Yeah, but he Cook mapped the entire east coast of Australia, and along the way had all sorts of other adventures in Polynesia and ran aground on the Great Barrier Reef and nearly nearly sank his ship. The endeavor that was his first voyage. The second voyage was another attempt to find this super continent, and he nearly made it to Antarctica and kind of intuited the existence of Antarctica. But even Antarctica and Australia combined would not be anywhere near
as large as this super continent that was. It was just one of these crazy scientific ideas that the people in the Royal Society believe eved in, you know, So he.
Proved it, like kind of when had people more thoroughly given up, even though they've picked it back up again, when had they thoroughly given up on flat Earth?
Well, there's still people today.
It's like a new goofy thing now.
But yeah, I don't know, I probably a little earlier, probably in the probably in the sixteen hundreds.
Okay, So that was that was a dead idea at this time.
Now they their their astronomy was amazing at that point. And Cook that was his other great talent was he was an amazing astronomer. He also had this new tool by the second voyage that changed exploration dramatically, and this was a little thing called a chronometer. And uh, the chronometer told that what was the time in Greenwich, England, And that allowed people, Uh, it's too complicated to explain that.
That allowed people just by looking at this clock, you could figure out figure out longitude and that was the hard thing. That couldn't figure out. They latitude they could figure out easily, but longitude was this puzzle. And once you figure out the coordinates of a place, a Cook was able to know exactly where he was anywhere in the world and put that on a map, and these maps were published and then suddenly all these places that he discovered or rediscovered could never again hide from the
eyes of the world. And so this is one of the reasons Polynesians hate him so much, is that they, you know, kind of had lived in splendid isolation for centuries and millennia and now you know, he just posted the address.
Yeah, that's yeah, it's an interesting point, Like it's it's obvious, but I'd ever thought about before that you could see something, right, But from then you could see something and very specifically say where it was, rather than say, we sailed kind of west for two weeks and then you'll find this little thing maybe.
Yeah, like Tasmin. We mentioned Tasmin earlier. He had he's been a lot of these places, but he didn't know where he was and he couldn't report back in it with any confidence what he had seen or where these places were. So so Captain Cook has the chronometer and that change. That changes a lot. But he also, uh, he was a scientist. He was he was interested in these people that he encountered in the first two voyages.
I mean his descriptions of Polynesians and uh Australian Aborigines are devoid of I mean the kind of you know, uh eurocentrism that you you see in so many other explorers. He he he just described what they wore and what what they looked like, and uh you know what they ate and uh, you know, just was trying to get it down in a kind of objective neutral way.
Is his is his writing is clumsy to read, as when you read the unedited journals of Lewis and Clark.
Uh, he wasn't a writer. That's for sure. But the weird spellings, yeah, there I and I did kind of do some light editing. I mentioned in the author's note that there's some you know, I got rid of the ye's and the ampersans, and the weird capitalizations and the you know, strange spellings. There was no uniform spelling back then, so some of these things are very hard on the eye and on the ear to follow as you're reading them. But so, yes, But but he was he was considering
that he really was self educated. He was quite a good writer, and I quote a lot from him, but I also quote from I mean, there were one hundred and eighty people on this voyage in two ships, and anyone who was literate was writing down in their journals what they were seeing and experiencing, including just massive amounts of sex. I mean, you know, all these books that I've written, my friends always say, well, you need to have more sex in your books, and I you know,
death marches and you know, explorations in Siberia, whatever. Now now I got a book that has more sex. I mean, orgies on the beach, orgies on the ship, down in the holes of the ship, these Polynesian women, and this is something I.
Said, who's describing this?
Everyone and they're not worried.
They don't like, they don't put that little puritanical clean up on it.
Not at all except for Cook himself, who was said is said to be and I believe it's true, never did partake in this sort of thing. But I mean all the officers and all the I mean most of the sailors on the ship were sixteen seventeen, eighteen years old, and they were they were horny, and they certainly the Polynesians had very different ideas about about sex, and they were very curious about these strange people that just washed up on their shores.
So they had to have left all kinds of progeny.
Uh yes, although I'm you know, I never met anyone who directly claimed to be one. And I did go to almost you know, as many of these places as I could go. Not a hardship research aspect to this. Warm places, yeah, warm places, I mean cool, interesting place this New Zealand, both North and South Island, you know, Tasmania, French Polynesia, Hawaii of course Alaska. Interesting places. And I mean just this is just the third voyage. Cook went just about everywhere was he was he.
A celebrity in his own day, Like were people clamoring to be on these expeditions by this.
Time the first voyage was over and they came back. Yes, he had become a celebrity. Uh, you know, he was sitting for the best painters in London and he was becoming becoming a member of the Royal Society and going, you know, he met King George the third, and you know, he was becoming very much a celebrity, and he hated that. He was awkward around it. He was intrigued by it a little bit, but uh, he just wanted to get right back out on the next voyage as quickly as he as he could.
Before we get to number three, how long were these How long were voyages one and two? Like he's gone, these are multi year trips? Correct, Yes, they were between three and four years. They It just takes forever to get down there and get back.
Uh. You know, all sorts of hardships happened along the way. The ship, you know, mass break and they have to repair and so forth. These ships took forever, and the thing was back then any kind of voyage that lasted longer than you know, one hundred or two hundred days, usually people started dying of scurvy. Scurvy was the you know, kind of like an occupational hazard of any long voyage.
Cook seemed to have figured out scurvy. He didn't precisely know what food was doing the trick or what you know, what in the diet was was was the what was the secret? But not a single person died on any one of his three voyages of scurvy.
Because of was it locke He just was better about food or it was it was a little did he know it was a food?
It was, yes, he understood that. And there had been a sky to scientists who had shown that lime juice or lemon juice could help with scurvy. But it wasn't it wasn't that so much. Cook main idea was, you know, salt foods, salted meat, salt like pemmican and salted pork, uh and uh, you know, vinegar and just kind of all all the food that they gave them that kept kept on the ship. He tried to get away from that as much as possible and make his men eat
fresh vegetables, fresh fruit, fresh meat. And he just pounded that into the everyone's mind to stop eating the salt pork and start you know, you know, hunting, go hunting, go fishing, get wild berries, get wild celery, you know, wherever you can find it. And uh, I think that was the real secret.
Yeah, so set up the third voyage. Well, the third voyage is like and also included like who's.
Who is right? Right? Good question. So the real sort of prime mover and architect behind many of these voyages was this dude named Sandwich, Lord Sandwich the inventor or. He was the inventor of the sandwich. He was really do you really buy that? How do you invent the sandwich? Well,
here's the deal. He was very very busy and very very uh he was a workaholic and uh he uh didn't have time to eat, so he would just stick a piece of meat between two pieces of bread and that was his meal and people somehow decided to start calling it the sandwich. He was he was the first
Lord of the Admiralty, was a very powerful guy. He was also interested in the science and the exploration that was going on, and he's certainly one of the you know, important people to about in terms of who was paying for this. The Admiralty paid for a lot of this.
The Royal Society, which was a scientific society, also paid for a lot of the scientific work because there were scientists on board, botanists, you know, uh, expedition artists and uh, you know these were these were very well staffed, well manned expeditions. Were they paying.
For these expeditions like just out of like interest in knowing what's out there? Or was it more of like an angle, like let's find some stuff to take over.
Both you know, everything there. Every chess move that they're making in the world is calculated to to beat the French, to beat the Spanish, to beat the Dutch, to beat the Russians, and so that is, you know, there's an imperial chess game going on here. That is certainly a big part of it. But they also are Creek of the Enlightenment. They believe in publishing all this stuff and
to a wide audience. The maps that are produced by these voyages are incredibly accurate, whereas like the Russian expeditions were laughably almost cartoonishly wrong, you know, because they had their own interests they were trying to protect. So I'd say Cook kind of had a foot in both worlds. He understood that he was a creature. He was doing the bidding of empire, but he also was genuinely curious about these places and getting them accurately on the map
and describing them accurately. And then, oh my god, the published volumes, these giant folio sized volumes of Cook's third Voyage ended up with three of these volumes with beautiful engravings and maps and descriptions of animals and plants that had never been seen before by Europeans. It's amazing. And so there is that scientific element that's pretty extraordinary.
But he didn't have a sort of he didn't have as an overt desire to loot, as say the Spanish coming into the Spanish coming into Mexico.
You know, there were a couple of places along the way where he was supposed to come ashore and raise the British flag and claim these lands for the crown, for King George. And he hated this whole rigmarole. I mean, he understood that it was rather absurd when you're on the other side of the world to sort of say, these people who were watching off and they'd be watching the
ceremony not knowing what the hell what's going on. There was a little clause in his instructions that said, you're supposed to do this with the consent of the natives, you know, you know, like, oh yeah, you can take over our country, our continent, our island. It was rather absurd he did. Some might call it looting, but I mean he did stop along the way many places, and he needed food, he needed water, he needed timber.
Uh.
And he got it one way or the other, either through trade or or through uh bullying his way, you know, into into getting the things he needed to keep going on the voyage. But you know, when people say he was a colonizer, you know he really wasn't a colonizer. He never left a single person behind. Uh. He was the maybe you could say he was the leading edge of colonialism because the first act of colonialism, I guess you've you got to discover these places first, or rediscover them.
The word discovery is a very controversial word in this in this business, because of course there were people there already.
Who discovers discovered for his culture.
Right right, so you kind of have to say, you know, European, first European to discover. But and and the Polynesians were of course one of the greatest long distance voyagers of all time. And but you just got to be careful with the word discovery. Yeah, I understand all that. Yeah, But so he was. There was something a little off about Captain Cook in the Third Voyage.
And that's getting back going into it.
Going into it, he wasn't the same captain. People have wondered what was wrong with him, If he had a parasite from all the weird foods that he ate, if he had bipolarism. I mean, some of his actions on the Third Voyage have been described by some clinical psychologists as being classically bipolar age. Well, he turns fifty on the voyage, he's forty eight, I think when they leave London, and by the way, they leave England at Plymouth. Actually in July of seventeen seventy.
Six, something else happened that summer.
A lot is going on in Boston that July. The Empire is freaking out about this revolt in America and they are sending their best explorer that same month to the other side of North America. The ultimate objective of this third Voyage, I didn't even say it is to find the Northwest Passage over Canada, over Alaska, and because this is something the British has been looking for forever, usually from the Atlantic side. Now they're going to try
it from the Pacific side. Go up through the Bearing straight using these very murky Russian maps that had been produced by Bearing, and try to find this Northwest passage, this great, you know, fabled waterway that the British were always obsessed with.
Ca can you pause from it to help you understand the problem with it. I mean, it's there, it's just icy.
Right right.
And of course, so they would go, you'd routinely go and be like, just get locked in the ice, right.
Like exactly, you get locked in the ice and you start eating boot leather and you know, you know, people starve and die. Yeah, and it's there, right, It was always there, and in fact it is many summers now you can.
I was gonna say, it's all of a sudden a new object of interest. Yeah, those books be a lot different now.
Yeah.
They'd be like, oh, yeah, no problem exactly.
So it was looking looking for something that was there, but it was impractical and nearly impossible to get through. And during that time these ships were nominally reinforced for the ice, but not I mean they couldn't withstand the pressure of the pack like an icebreaker could today.
So he thought by coming in on the Pacific side, off the Bearing Sea, you might get funneled into the right route somehow.
I don't know that he actually believed any of this stuff. There were a bunch of scientists in the Royal Society who did. And there see, they're trying to find a short cut across North America to get to China for trade, and also to avoid the Spanish, who dominated of South America. So they didn't want to go under and around South America. They wanted to go over North America to avoid the Spanish.
So that's kind of what's going on. He had determined that this giant super continent did not exist in the southern hemisphere, and now they're asking him to go solve this other huge puzzle.
What a long I mean, people got to stop and think about what a long way around.
I know, I know it's over a year to get there, and.
I mean across the Atlantic down to the around the Southern Tip, down around Patagonia and then well actually the way back. They did it.
Yeah, this time they did. They go You know, he did that once as well, but on the third voige, he went around uh, you know, Cape of Good Hope and Cape Town. But still, I mean, it's it's just it's the entire you're spanning the globe.
Okay, And he went Okay, just to get to the.
Point where he began to look. He starts mapping North America. It makes landfall at present day Oregon, and it starts mapping or what we call Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, Vancouver Island, all of Alaska. He maps, He gives the first he gets the first map of Alaska, and it's amazingly accurate.
And do you know where where does he land? What kind of places in Alaska's he touched and ground? You know?
Well, the most famous place that he went to was cook Inlet, you know present day side of Anchorage. He goes all the way to the end of cook Inlet. It's called cook Inlet. By the way, he never named a single place after himself. When you see Cook's name on something, it's because somebody back in England put it on a map.
Why would he go way into cook Inlet?
Well, at first, it's very wide, it starts to look like, uh, it sort of looks like a waterway, I mean, you know, and it was. It was early summer and it was rushing with glacial melt and snow melt, and he thought it communicated, maybe communicated with the north end of Alaska, and some of the natives people that he met seemed to suggest that so, and then some of his officers were really excited. It's like, this is it, this is the holy Grail. We found it. And of course it
peters out at tapers. You've been there probably right. It tapers and then it just kind of becomes a couple of tributary rivers. But so that's one famous place, Prince William Sound, which he named. He also went to un Alaska. He went to, I don't know, the entire west coast. He went all the way to what we now call Point Barrow, Alaska, and that's where he encountered ice. He nearly got stuck in the ice permanently. I mean, he would have died. They both ships would have been crushed.
And he decided to turn around and go back to that wonderful little archipelago that he had stumbled upon earlier in the voyage that we know as Hawaii.
And how is he behaving you're saying he's like a little off, but had he done things along the Alaska coasts that were off?
Well, the Alaska part of the trip is kind of classic Cook. He's back to doing what he loves to do, which is mapping and figuring out this enormous puzzle, and he was pretty happy, and he was pretty It was
embroiled in puzzle solving. You know, it was earlier in the voyage in Polynesia where he was acting very strange, using the lash in a way that was just cruel to his own man, and being cruel to the indigenous people that he encountered, cutting people's ears off and doing these really sadistic things that nothing like that had happened on his first two.
Voids, like on his way to Alaska in Polynesia, stopping at places and yeap doing this.
No, when the obviously all these actions are being recorded by people on the ships.
Are they.
Hypothesizing that something's different about I mean? Or is it looking back now in hindsight, there's more and more speculation about his well being. But like, were people on board writing something's very different?
No, the people on board are asking the same question, what the hell is wrong with the captain, especially the ones that had been on the previous two voyages. They're like this, you know, I don't know if it's his celebrity had gone to his head. He's more arrogant, he was more peremptory and just like making decisions without explaining.
He was not as collaborative he was. And of course the British Navy at that time, I mean you could say he's becoming more like a typical British naval captain because these were I mean, this was a cruel world that they operated in and most of them were like that.
Yeah, you were like judge Jerry and executioner, right.
Master and commandership yeah yeah, yeah, And so so you could say that he was sort of becoming he just he just become another European naval naval captain by that point. But it was also in pain.
Uh.
He had sciatica, the intense pain. Uh that It's very interesting. He encountered for the first time Polynesian massage and these this army of women descended on him and cured him of his sciatica, and he describes it beautifully. It's believed to be the first description of of of massage. And you know, from his voyage, you get all these other things, like you get the first description of you know, the word taboo and what it means and tattooing, the first
descriptions of surfing when they come to Hawaii. You know, all of this stuff emanates from his voice.
How does he describe surfing when they come Well, you know, I.
Don't know that he describes surfing very well. But when or one of his officers, a doctor, the surgeon, just he tries. It's it's almost laughable because he tries to break it down, like the body mechanics of it, like you know, then they get up on the board, you know, they get on the declivity of the wave and then then they you know, do and and by the way, the British are watching this can't believe it because they don't Most of them don't know how to swim, let
alone surf. Uh. This is one of the weirdest thing is that naval officers didn't buy and large know how to swim. They weren't taught to swim, They weren't required to learn to swim. How is that possible? But including Cook himself, he could not swim, which ends up being a problem for him later on.
Isn't that wild man? Yeah, it just seems like could be like such.
An art of it. Well, what I read was that they believe that, you know you're gonna die anyway, why plan prolong the agony? Uh, just sink, just die.
I get it over with, Like if you go on the water, that's it.
Yeah. Yeah, it's bizarre. It's a very very strange mentality.
Yeah, you think that attitude of a change when they're sailing around seeing other people swimming, Oh yeah.
And they remark on how beautiful these swimmers are, and women with you know, babies at their breast and they're still swimming out in these giant waves and just beautiful, strong swimmers, and you know they're amazed by it. But they're like describing waves that they would themselves and would never think of going into.
Yeah, when he when he's up in northern Alaska and hits ice, is it is it at that point like, Okay, the trip's over, let's start picking our way home. Or does he have a second thing on his to do list?
Yes? Well his and this has something about Captain Cook's sort of determination and stubbornness. He decided, well, I've got to go back and make one more attempt at finding the Northwest passage. But we're getting along in the summer season. I got to warm up for the winter. Why don't we come back for one more season and try it a little earlier in the season, try it at a slightly different angle or a different place. Maybe this ice that I've just encountered is an aberration of one season
or something. So he he's just going back to Hawaii to warm up, to replenish his stores, to let his men have some R and R and turn around and go right back to Alaska and not Oregon. Not in not Oregon for some well, you know what it is. I think he he had a brief stop in Hawaii. He made Landfall and Kawaii, and he knew, he understood, these islands are very special. This is a major fine. He called them the Sandwich Islands, naming naming them after his boss, of course, Lord Sandwich.
I didn't know where they were, but I've heard the Sandwich Islands.
Yeah, And you know, I guess he was sort of brown nosing. He was just trying to, you know, gain favor of his boss, Lord Sandwich.
And when they were, when they were along Alaska, are they running into Ruskies along there?
They do run into a number of Russian Russian for uh, you know, interest.
No hostilities.
No, they got along. They got along actually very well. In fact, at that point England had a pretty good relationship with Russian.
When when he goes on these three or four year expeditions, they just assume they're not going to hear from him until he gets back, or is there some like does he ever send like is there a way for him to send messages home?
Or well, you know the beam me up Scotty. You know, they had that right Captain.
Kirk uh No, but there's not like outposts that he's like.
There are a few one of them. One of them is Batavia, which is Jakarta, which was a Dutch colony, and they were able to get messages to Europe that way.
Uh.
Cape Town, South Africa was certainly one. When they encountered Russians in Alaska.
Still those messages still need to be manually trans border just catching other boats.
Yeah, taking months and months and months. But they did encounter Russians in Alaska who promised to send some documents to Saint Petersburg and then ultimately London and uh, they go, these documents would go all the way across Siberia all I mean, you know what is that eight nine time zones to Europe and then finally London. Uh, and so some some messages got got to London that way, but it took forever. I mean, yeah, you have to understand there.
Just once they leave Plymouth there they're gone for four years. And in every sense of the word.
So he heads to Hawaii and he's thinking he's gonna check that place out more kick it.
Yeah, uh, resupply, uh, resupply. And and also, uh, you know, there's always stuff going wrong with the ship. You know, there's things breaking all the time. It's just clattering lumber up there, you know. And there there's great there's great forests, and and uh in a why and so there's that. His big worry was, getting back to the sex thing, was that his men would spread venereal disease. And he
writes endlessly about it. He knew that his men were spreading venereal disease to these innocent people who didn't have gone rhea or syphilis.
And but some of those diseases were some of those diseases were in the New World, though, some of those diseases were in North America.
They were in North America by then, but not on the islands. Oh, there was a disease called yaws, which was a venereal disease, much more benign than syphilis. But no, there's no question that his men and also the French explorers and the Spanish explorers brought disease to Polynesia. But it was a real concern of Cooks. He mentions it just multiple times in his journal, like.
And he had he seen this happen before.
He's seen it happen before. He had his surgeon literally like you strip all the men and any who had any signs of venaria disease. Uh, we're not allowed to go ashore.
Was his concern out of like just genuine concern for the locals, or was it for the repercussions that would occur after it happened.
Then it would spread back around to his own men, You mean.
Well know that they might be like, yeah, like, hey, you brought this disease, We're coming after you.
Now.
Oh, perhaps that was a fear, but I mean I think it was a genuine, you know, uh humane thing. You know, he just like this is a this is an island. He would determine that was innocent of this disease. Uh. And he he was he abstained from sex the whole the whole time, and he was married and you know, had a family, and.
Uh, you buy that.
I buy it. I do buy it. Because every officer, just even ones who hated him, said, yeah, he he wouldn't. And then and I and Hawaiian women would come after him, and you know, the chiefs would bring some of their you know, ladies to the ship, and the ladies would get really pissed off at him when he would refuse refuse them, like, what's wrong with you? Are you a man? You know? What is this? What is the story? And he uh, you know, he was a pretty stodgy Quaker trained,
dour Yorkshireman. And I you know, it's possible somewhere along the way something happened, including that time when all those massuses descended on him. Sure, I think it was twelve or fourteen women jumped just jumped on him. And but but I don't think anything more than that happened. There was no happy ending. I don't think there.
But so but he's worried about his men. But he but does he does he not have the authority or is it just unrealistic for him to say no consorting.
Yeah, Well, here's the thing. The these women are literally crawling from their canoes into the ship at all times. And one of the things that they're doing in some of the places is they're doing it for for for metal that they're absolutely obsessed with iron, and they the men have found out that for the price of it, they could have and get, you know, meet one of
these women for the price of one nail. And what starts to happen is the ship, the whole of the ship is is pounded with there's cop copper sheathing, and then there's they're pounded with nails. And the women were going underneath the ship because they're great swimmers and prying loose. Uh, the ship was coming apart. Basically, these nails were being ripped out of the whole of the ship by the
hundreds and hundreds, and they began to worry. Cook began to worry that the ship was literally going to disintegrate from from this eye that they were just obsessed with. And because they had never seen metal before and they understood how useful it was and how what a powerful thing. It was for scraping, for for puncturing, for make hooks out of make all kinds of implements out of That's what they were after more than anything was iron.
Got it. So there was a trade, Yeah, there was a trade component.
Yeah, definitely, definitely.
So when he had when he heads back, he's worried about that, and he's desirous of mapping the whole archipelagal like he's gonna go around it and lay some claim to it.
Okay. So he was obsessed also with the the question of whether the Spanish had been there, because the Spanish for centuries had been doing this thing called the Manila Galleon trade thing where they would bring spices from the Philippines and they would drop them in a Capulco and then in a Capulco they would they would get silver and all kinds of other things that had been mined in South America in Mexico and take them back to
the Philippines. So back and forth, back and forth over the Pacific for centuries the Spanish, and they'd go right by Hawaii, very close these sort of sea lanes that they were using. But so the big question he thought was had the Spanish landed somewhere in the Hawaiian Islands. And if so, had you know, why hadn't we heard about it? And do they have do they have their own maps of the Hawaiian Islands? And to his satisfaction, he determined that they hadn't for some reason, almost miraculous,
they had missed Hawaii after all those centuries. And he was the first European almost certainly, to certainly to land and describe these people. And he was amazed by them for many many reasons, but more especially that they were Polynesian. They were the same people he had encountered in New Zealand, the same people that he encountered in it in French Polynesia and Easter Island. Uh, we're talking about massive distances.
And he began he was really beginning to piece together the idea that these people, you know, this Polynesian dias diaspora, they the only way it could have happened is that they were extraordinary voyagers, you know, they these weren't just accidental driftings, These were migrations.
Would geneticists now look at the Polynesian diaspora, do they have any sense of when and where they became seafaring people like coming out of where.
Yeah, the best scholarship I've seen on it is, you know, the main idea now is that they originated in Taiwan, Okay, which is I mean, you know how far that is. So Taiwan starting to sail eastward from Taiwan through Micronesia and Melanesia and uh and finally landing probably in Tonga is one of the certain early places that they landed and kind of created an empire, and then Uh and then Tahiti, uh and then finally Hawaii. And the very last arrivals to any of these islands was New Zealand.
You know, that was the farthest away.
They found New Zealand. The Polynesians found New Zealand after they found Hawaii.
Probably, yes, I'm not absolutely sure on that, but I think yes, I think that the theory is that the Maori what we call the Maori today are were the last it was the last of the great lands of Polynesia settled.
Got it uh if the Spanish had found it. Let's say the spanis let's say he found that the Spanish had found it. Was there the idea that they would counter that that he would like counter that claim or was it just a or was it just a curiosity.
He wouldn't have personally countered it. I mean, they were they had some weapons on board, but they wouldn't have been able to do any kind of a actual fighting. You know.
He he wouldn't have tried to expel him or.
Something like that, but he understood that he had to report back to the admiralty and you know that they would want to know all about whether the Spanish had been there or not. You know, he's constantly looking over his shoulder wondering. Also, this is another thing, is like, who knows maybe back in Europe we're at war with Spain again, or we're at war with France. And he had to wonder and worry that perhaps he was going to have to get on a war footing. All of
a sudden, here comes a ship, the French ship. Are we at war again? It's a crazy thing. You know, he's trying to explore and he's also got one foot in the kind of the military mindset at the same time.
How quickly does how quickly do things go south between him and the Hawaiians.
Well, so his first stop was Kawhi and he things went pretty poorly from the very beginning. He sent a young officer to look for water and look for a good landing place. And uh, the the Koinans are going crazy. They don't know who these people are, what these ships are. They they may think that they were gods. They certainly were curious about the metal because they had seen in driftwood little flecks and specs of metal, but they'd never seen so much metal.
From disintegrated whalers or whatever. Yeah, now had they? So did they know about Europeans and ships, but just hadn't seen him yet or they not even.
Almost certainly they had never seen Europeans, but that the ships.
Had they heard tell you know what I mean?
Uh, not that I've been able the scholars have been able to prove.
There seemed like a full like a full on just shock.
Yeah, there's a there are rumors of possible Dutch shipwreck and another Spanish shipwreck that may have happened centuries earlier. But they were shocked and amazed, and there was kind of this weird feeling of celebration and rapture, like their world was about to change. And so they come. So this officer goes into fine water and Immediately, the Hawaiians
gather around his rowboat. And this dude is trigger happy, this officer, and he shoots a Hawaiian and kills him instantly, shoots him right in the sternum, you know, right.
He feels threatened for some reason, he feels threatened.
I mean, you know, he thought they were trying to steal the boat, the boat or something, but in fact they were trying to pull it in because the surf was so large and so heavy. So within minutes of arrival they've killed Hawaiian. And of course this freaks the Hawaiians out. The Kawaiians, I should say, this is the island of Kawaii, and they don't know what this implement is that just killed one of their countrymen, and they're amazed by it and and and shocked, and they all
just run run back to shore and uh. But after that cook does come ashore and things go very peacefully and very well, and the same on the yeah, on the same day, uh, and then and the next day uh. And but then a bunch of uh and a bunch of men ultimately do make it a shore and that yes, there's sexual encounters and probably the spread of UH of a venereal disease. He goes to a hayo a temple
uh and and describes their ceremonies. He goes to their you know, their plantations where they're growing bread fruit, and you know, all kinds of u you know, elaborate architecture to kind of hold in the water. You know, he's describing all this stuff. He knows that, uh, this is
an amazing place. And he's hearing from and by the way, he can understand them because he's been some of his men were had become fluent in Polynesian language by then, and this is the same language essentially with some variations that they were speaking in Tihiti. So he's he's hearing from these local people in Kawhi that hey, we're just
one island. There's there's a bunch more over over this way, you know, Awahu and Maui and Hawaii and Lanai and so, so he's realizing this is a big discovery, this is a big find, and there's a there's a lot here and so but he's still got his mind on I got to get to Alaska, you know, you know, there's a I got it, and I have to do it. In the summertime. So he's got a timeline that he's trying to, a deadline that he's trying to follow.
Where does he go from there?
From Kawai, he goes he goes right across the Atlantic Ocean, I'm excuse me, the Pacific Ocean to to Oregon, you know, and make it starts working his way up the coast again. No, no, no, no, this is the first time, right, yeah, yeah, it's it's very confusing because he you know, he stumbles upon Kawhi on his way. He didn't you know, he didn't think. He thought he'd just be sailing across the giant bulge of the Pacific Ocean forever until he made landfall in North America.
Okay, so this stop and Kawahi when they kill the guy is on his way to the to the the North America coast to the US Alaska coast.
Correct.
Then he does his adventures up there, runs out of time, right, and he's and then he had but then he decides to double back and he goes back to.
Yes Hawaii and he and he makes land. The first island he sees on his way back is Maui, and he thinks he's gonna go there and you know, replenish his ship. But then another island, a bigger island, the big island of Hawaii kind of uh shifts into his his view and he's like, wait a minute, I'm going over there. That's that's even bigger. And there's snow. You know,
there's snow on top of this mountain. It's one of you know, it's by some definitions, it's the tallest mountain in the world because it's you know, if you start from from the stars in for the trenchat and so he's amazed by this place and he's like, that's where I got to go, and and that ends up being, uh, the place of his death.
At what point do they just flat out run out of food they brought from home.
That's a good question. I don't know. They're constantly filling the cast you know by you know, like Cape Town. By the time by the time they get to Cape Town, they're running out of food. And but that's one of one of the things about Cape Town is that it was a Dutch uh replenishing station that you know, you could get everything you needed there, whether it was salt pork or you know, hard tack, biscuits, or you know,
they had pretty much everything. The Dutch were really good at not only replenishing Dutch vessels, but selling to the ships from other countries, European countries.
But then they're always scrounging, right, always scrounging they go, they're always scrounging and eating a lot of weird food.
And cook again is demanding that his men eat fresh food and fresh vegetables and anything that they can find, and uh, you know, so that's yeah, that's a big part of it. Plus, you know, a lot of them are you know, they're out there. Why not to put a lot why not put a line in the water. You know, they are constantly fishing, They're constantly when they come ashore, they're constantly hunting. So uh yeah, they e mentioned.
Like, oh sorry ahead, lets me say what are the favorites. So I think that's like with the Lewis and Clark expedition, there's always like we're any of these sort of stories, it's like this is what they prefer.
Dog dog.
Yeah, I mean, I I put together this thing. I don't know if we want to go into this, but a little bit. I've been thinking about having a party to celebrate the the arrival of the new book and having some really weird food, and then going through the book and realizing some of the extremely weird food that they ate. And I've put together a kind of a little menu for sure. Uh so, yeah, everything on here is in the book, but I've arranged it as as
though it were some kind of gourmet banquet. But you know, we start with a paratiffe and appetizers of like any good banquet, grog, spruce beer, pete of sea hair which which is a slug that they encountered in Tasmania. And Puffin's squab, Young Young Puffin. That's a there's such cute little birds and apparently they ate a lot of puffin.
Really.
Then uh you know, amuse boush. You've got to have something just to get really get going. And that was a tartar art of cury liver, the liver of the curry, which was the ancient dog of New Zealand. It's now extinct. It was often eaten by the Maori. Yeah, it's a weird looking dog.
So we've seen out a dog that had arrived with with the with the Polynesians, and then when it became like a sort of went faral and then now it's.
Gone, and now it's gone, although you can see it in some museums stuffed, you know, kind of like some of the things in this room. I mean, it's kind of strange looking, but.
What I'm pulling up looks like a page out of the Fucked Up Old Taxidermy.
Yeah, they went like a dingo almost. Yeah, it's probably related in some way, but anyway, a little kurry because they were eating dog fairly often on this trip. You mentioned Lewis and Clark. They didn't want to. It wasn't their first choice, but they did. Then you gotta have some salad. Uh. So the salad, I'm just I'm suggesting in this light relish. You know, they're constantly worried scurvy, uh the scurvy as they called it. And so Cook had all these weird items that he thought could be
anti scorbutic or you know, anti scurvy. And they consisted of a carrot, marmalade, wart of malt, rob of orange. I don't know what that is, rob of orange, inspissated lemon juice of course on the heel of or not the peel, and maybe it is I don't know, uh, and saloop, which is this root vegetable that they steeped for a long time. First course loggerhead sea turtle brigoo. They ate so much turtle and of course it's very tasty. That that's not no one is that you can press.
Stock up so quick when you're pulling into these places that aren't Yeah, when you're pulling in these places that aren't getting harvested.
Right, Sea turtle, sea turtle is is? Is that? That was? That was that was good eating and uh.
You could probably train it, keep them alive for a while and transport.
Well you read it. When they would go to the Glopagos and get the land ones flipping them over, yeah in the hole. They'd stay alive for months.
Yeah. Yeah, they come with their own packaging basically, and you know, as long as they're alive, they're still fresh. So yeah, that was whenever they ran into turtle, they were they were in seventh Heaven. Australian ghost shark fins are a delicacy and they would like to fry those
in seal grease. Seal grease. They would render the blubber of seals that they went down to this island called Kerguelan, which is way down there, almost to Antarctica, and they would render this seal blubber, which they described as no better in England was ever thought half so good. Really, it sounds disgusting.
Making their own oil.
They were which were they cooked with? They use it in their lamps. You know, they had to be pretty resourceful. They're you know, as you said, running out of food pretty early on, so they have to fill their or some of.
It's the bear grease, the butter.
That's a good way of putting in.
The ghost shark looks like an insane.
They called goblin shark too different.
Sometimes they're called elephant fish.
Let me see turned.
Towards what do we call them up at the shack? The little ones you catch?
Oh, spiny dog fish?
No, no, no, the what am I thinking of? Rat fish? They look like like a rat fish? Yeah, I got it, a rat fish. I don't know. Second course salted Hawaiian boar. Now they ate a lot of pigat at great eating. Obviously no complaints there, but everything on the ship was was covered in cockroach excrement. So it was just that they can never deal. You know, you always hear about the rats the rats were a big problem, but and even bigger problem with the cockroaches. And there's stuff, there's ship.
The Polynesians had spread pigs all over the place.
They had they brought them with them everywhere they went except New Zealand. Somehow the pig didn't make it to New Zealand until you know, much later.
It's there now. Yeah, the uh, the cockroaches. That a little bit surprises me that when you're starting out you can't just when it's empty just clean that some bitch out.
I don't know. Yeah, I mean he's right.
I guess you got all the foods. Yeah, that's right. It's not like you clean your house and cockroa.
Yeah, it's bad. Okay. Then the main course is they a ton of this walrus, but they called it sea beef and they would eat it on kelp, bed of kelp. You know, good eating there. But the problem with the the problem with the walrus was they really actually tasted horrible. And this the chef, the galley chef, described how you have to prepare it just to make it palatable because it's so I don't know, greasy, And yeah, you'd waters would.
You think, well, I had fermented waters, which I didn't like. Oh on that subject, dude. The whale blobber is legit like that is delicious, man. The boat like pieces of bowhead whale where you have the it's like a French fry with a black tip on it. Okay, so it's it's it's a little bit of the skin. Imagine a French fry where most of it's white and on the ends like a black. It's like at the same proportions as the match stick, the size of a French fry, the head of the match being skin and the wood
of the match being blobber. Oh my god, it's good man.
Yeah, well that I was just going to read how they prepared it, just real quick.
A big Wallers fan. I'm sure i'd like it if I had it cooked.
Right. So they're up in a lot and they're seeing a lot of walrus and they shoot the walrus and it's a fair ordeal just getting them into the boat. But we let it hang up for one day that the blood might drain from it. After that we tow it overboard for twelve hours. Then we boil it for four hours, and the next day cut it into chunks and cook it for several days. Even then it is too rank and disgustful, both in smell and taste to make use of except with plenty of pepper.
It's funny that they towed it because your buddy uh.
Lad says it pickles it. They said.
Even after that it was bad as if, like, you know, we did everything we could.
I don't think they're typically.
I think when someone's preparing a food for several days and it's they're dragging it overboard, I'd be.
Like, that might be one of your issues. I don't think they were trimming it good. Yeah, I think if you'd got down in there, I think less is more. If you got down in there to the core of the meat. God done, like, trimmed core of the meat, there's no way it's gonna be bad.
I don't know.
They had a lot of surface fat in there, man, I had. That's what I would do. I'd go back in time to supervise that whale.
Well, the captain cook himself was famously able to eat just about anything.
He never well, you know what, to back them up. I couldn't get into it. I didn't like it. Cows like, oh, you just gotta try another bite. I'm like, I don't need to know the bike to tell you I don't like Walter's meat.
But at the end of the meal we got dessert, moldy yams. There were a lot of yams that's sweet and the only kind of sweet thing they had, or sweet and savory seagull pie. They ate a lot of seagulls, and you would pair out with digestive of course, algae, slimed cask water spiked with lemon juice and vinegar or this was all for Polynesia. It was the kava. You know, they're drinking this viscous fluid called kava, which is as
a drug. But the way they would do it is uh a lowly servant of the local chief would chew it and chew it and chew it and chew it and it spit it into this bowl with all his saliva and then that's what you would drink and uh it you got you kind of buzzed and uh it was a good way to finish finish off a good meal. Did they travel with rum? Yes, well, grog which was like fifty to fifty water and rum. Yeah.
How much do you want to get into Cook's death? I know you know, you gotta like there's two kinds of writers. You got the ones who are worried about telling the end of the books. I think people are not going to go get the book right. I think those ones are wrong. Then you got writers who is like, you know, obviously it's it's hundreds of pages long. We're only talking about a little bit. There's tons more to read and learn about.
I obviously it's not a spoiler. Uh to to to note that Cook died a horrible and violent death, and we touched on that earlier. I think it's what he's most famous for, honestly.
Is that he's famous for dying.
He's famous for getting killed on the shores of the Big Island. That you go to the spot where he was killed, you said you've been by it. I hiked down to it. There's a monument there that is that notes the exact spot where he where he met his end. He was hacked to pieces, he was just remembered. His bones were spread all over the island. Uh And the Hawaiians, both the ancient Hawaiians at the time and current Hawaiians.
Native Hawaiians insists that he was Obviously they say he was not eaten, and yeah.
I got called basic questions. How long had he spent interacting with the group of Hawaiians that killed him? So the people that lived in and around a cove, was it was it day one? Was he hanging out there for months on end?
No, they were they First of all, they circumnavigated the entire island of Hawaii and had all sorts of en kind of encounters out out in the water. But they finally made landfall I mean, anchored in Kiala Kukia Bay in January of seventeen seventy nine, and a month later, about a month later actually on Valentine's Day, and so many and there there's loads of debate among scholars about whether the Hawaiians thought he was the god Lano, who
was a god of fertility. And it was he arrived during this festival of the Makahiki, which was to honor the god Lano, and here comes this guy and these two ships that had never been seen before, and he was certainly treated like some kind of celebrity, and probably they did at first think that he was kind of the reincarnation of Lano. And these early ceremonies where I mean they're they're worshiping him. They bow down to him. You know, thousands of people out in the out on
the lava flats are like bowing down to him. So so that's an interesting part of the story and kind of this this festival is going on. It's the happiest time of their year. It's sort of like Carnival and it's uh, that's when they arrive and they Cook and his men have a wonderful couple of weeks there just some of the very best times of their whole voyage. Tons of food, you know, beautiful women may they make all sorts of friends with with the local men. And
they go up. They go hunting, they go fishing, they you know, they're having the time of their lives. But then it's time to leave. Cook decides it's time to go. They're going to go back to Uh, they're going to go back to Alaska.
Well, a little bit of this adulation has a fade because you've got to have balls to put.
A knife into a god, right, right, yes, I.
Mean so, so there after a while putting together that, you know, there's this there's this trilogy. Do you ever see the Highlands trilogy about about Papa New Guinea. No, it's really interesting. But they talk about a moment's it's a narrative about first contact, which in the Highlands was late, like lately, nineteen hundreds, you're still having first contact with groups.
And he and eventually these these indigenous people from Papua New Guinea, who they think these white guys are gods that show up, but they would they took a real interest in their excrement and they're like, that ain't a god.
Yeah, well that's it, that's us. Yeah, but that's a really good question about the bold the boldness of putting, you know, deciding to kill a god or someone who
might they may have thought was a god. But what happened was they actually left Hawaii, uh, and for two or three days, we're crawling up the coasts of the Big Island on the way to Alaska when they encountered a storm and the storm snapped the foremast and he has to put in somewhere and repair the ship and find a tree, you know, large enough to repair the mast. He can't go any further, so he turns back around
and goes back to that same day. And now there's realizing he's not a god if he was a god if he was exactly his boat is broken, and why wouldn't he just fix it himself if he was a god. So from the minute they arrived returned, everything was different. They were not They were not you know that they were not treated in any anything like the same man.
Wasn't there wasn't there one of his men who died when they return and they got an They're like, clearly, yes, this man is.
There was a guy named Watman who died of some kind of disease and they buried him there. But and the Wayans treated him with great respect. But you know, in the burial and so forth. But they're like, hmm, these guys suspicious His white dudes, aren't. They don't seem to be gods. They seem to be very much like us. And so clearly it had begun to dawn on on everyone from the lowly servants all the way up to the chiefs and and and the cahunas that these were
not gods anymore. And yeah, I don't like to talk about, you know, this precise circumstances that leads to death, because you know, that's that's like it's escalation, the sort of rapid escalation of miscues and cultural misunderstandings, and you know, obviously the language barrier, uh, and things get out of hand real quickly.
Remarkable.
Is there different versions of what happened in British history and Hawaiian hist.
Yeah, yeah, there are there are, and including I mean one of the stories, one of the Hawaiian versions. Several of the Hawaiian versions have Cook having sexual relations with Hawaiian princesses both on Kawaii and in Hawaii, and that that may have contributed to some of the misunderstandings or you know, but the English say that's absolutely not true, and that that's just a story that comes from American missionaries who hated the British and uh, you know, I
wanted to make Cook look like a terrible guy. You know.
One question about it is how did they get their hands on the Captain Joey? Why is there not like a like a lot of layers of security.
Yeah, well, there were marines, uh that came ashore with him. He was I won't go into all the details, but he was trying to basically kidnap the King of Hawaii and get him on his ship, hold him for ransom so that he could get back a rowboat that some Hawaiian warrior had stolen. And uh, he was he was dragging, not quite dragging. He was he.
Himself, Like I know, you know every single detail, but like it's just so bizarre to me, like that he himself is.
There, He himself went ashore to do this. Uh he was roaring and he was roaring mad. He was roaring mad. He was so mad at this.
They won't give us the boat back. By god, I'll get that.
Boat pretty much with with a contingent of royal marines who were not very good at their jobs, by the way. And uh uh, things escalated real fast. And here here here's what I will say about his death. Is that almost certain?
It all? You lay all the nitty gritty out in the book.
Oh my god, yeah, it takes the last third of the book is really kind of what what happened that on that faithful day? But one of the things that they had done book, well, yeah, that's Hawaii. The last third of the book, I suppose it's the last fifty pages.
It's the real The risk goes in real slowly, but chapter nineteen, the knife goes deeper.
But what's interesting is they the blacksmiths had been churning out these crude knives as gifts to the Hawaiians because they were so interested in metal, and you know, they were just just churning them out as fast as they could. And it's one of those knives. There's crude knives that the British gave them that ended up killing Cook. So no, to self, you know, don't give people you don't know very well a weapon, and that a weapon. So yeah, so that's and then of course there's a lot of
debate about what happened to Cook's body. The only parts of him were returned to the British. There's a story that, uh, some young Hawaiian children saw Cook's heart hanging up to dry. And this is a story that Mark Twain uh tells when he visited Hawaii, uh and and that this heart was they thought it was a dog's heart and ate it. So that's really the only possible known incidence of cannibalism here.
Twain's getting the story.
A century later.
Yeah, so it doesn't say like probably just shy of a century A century later.
Yeah, about a century later. Yeah, So take it with a grain of.
Salt, take your heart and that story with a grain of.
Salt, Yeah, and some cockroach excrement.
When he said they gave parts of him back, how like you know, I mean like, well, so.
The new captain, whose name is Captain Clark, who was number two now he's number one, is demanding to demanding the Haleaands to give back his remains because the Wines didn't quite understand the British, you know, that they wanted his whole body back. They wanted to have a formal burial at sea.
And.
They're like, we don't have his body, you know, we have some parts of his body. And they gave him his part of his thigh, some bones, his part of his skull but had been scalped, part of his hat, a couple of items of his clothing. But they what they had done traditionally, I mean, this is what they did to their own revered chiefs. Is they would burn the body, uh, scrape away any remaining flesh, uh and save the bones. That's where the manna was the power
of the body. And the different chiefs, would you know, they would spread it all over the island and and and hold onto these bones as relics. And that's what they had planned to do with Cook and did do, but some of the bones somehow got returned, and they assumed that they were Cooks and you know that they were telling the truth.
Mess the wrong.
How did that not escalate into a full on like my next question, like were they did did the English just feel like they were outnumbered and it would be very dumb or.
Like, yes, well it did escalate, by the way, but they wanted those remains back. They also wanted four different Marines also were killed in this auditation, and they wanted the remains of those Marines too, and uh so they.
Had a delicate that's a weird deal, likew who are those Holsers do you know? I mean like when someone real famous, like you know, yeah, like Cook, I've never even heard about these other guys.
Yeah, yeah, there's four that met their end.
Those people's families are probably there's always some no names in Star Trek that get killed Red Shirts.
Yeah, so four other guys, yeah, yeah, and a bunch of Hawaiians probably as many as twenty warriors were killed that day too. That day, yeah, by the Marines who were shooting constants fast. But it took forever to reload these muskets.
A gunfight.
Yeah, yeah, muskets. You know, it takes forever to.
In my head. This is Glad to tell me. In my head he was up there, which is him or some other guy, and it was just that I didn't know that broke out into him.
Yeah. But so they they waited to escalate and and retaliate because they wanted those remains back. And they figured, well, if they retaliate now, they'll never get the remains back. So they did get the remains back, and then they turned the cannons on on on shore and a lot of people were killed and we I don't know that we ever know how many precisely, but probably hundreds were killed. Really it turned into a kind of a battle, pitch battle.
Or just.
Man, do you think that well, who knows you think it was that your response would have been like, shit out a little sideways, let's just pull out, yeah, and reapproach this in the future. Yeah, like we're pulling up killing their guy, yeah, over in quhi, over misunderstanding.
Yeah, yes, And that's certainly what the captain, Captain Clark wanted to do. He didn't really want to retaliate, but some of the junior officers got extremely pissed off. And one of them is a very famous guy named William Bly you may he becomes famous, uh with the mutiny on the Bounty. I was the master of cook ship. He learned he learned from Cook.
You know.
The other great officer on this ship was Vancouver, who you know, one of the greatest explorers of all time as well. So this is there's a cast of characters. Vancouver, Yeah, that Vancouver. Yeah. So these young officers get really pissed off that their mentor this man they love, Captain Cooking. They do they do them afraid. It's true, especially Blind. He's he's he's a really uh, severe guy, very very capable seamen, but uh, kind of a badass, take no prisoners kind of.
So we'll learn more about Blind in the book.
You Will, You Will. He's all over the book. He's he's uh, he's an important part of the story. I forgot to mention him.
Dude, I can't wait to read the book. Man, I'm excited.
Well, thank you, thanks for having me back. This one took me forever, partly because of COVID, which interrupted research a lot of trips and stuff. But it took me about five years to do, and it's finally out. I can't believe it.
What are you doing next?
I'm coming back to the West. I'm writing about Colorado, Colorado Territory and during the Civil War. I'm riding about the Sand Creek massacre. I'm riding about the Civil War. I'm riding about the gold Rush and the creation of Denver. Uh another kind of like Blood and Thunder.
How are you gonna how are you gonna bracket that out?
I'm working on it. I haven't figured it all out yet, but I'm.
But you got you narrowed in on like an air a bunch of big events. But like you know, Blood and Thunder was kick.
Cars right right?
You got it.
There's a character who was at sand Creek, an amazing guy named Silas Soul. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he's the officer that refused the orders to attack the Cheyenne and uh uh ended up testifying against his commander, uh Colonel Chivington, and we and we know about what really happened at sand Creek because of this this young man who was twenty six at the time. It was very brave and then was he was ultimately murdered for his for his testimony. So he's the main character.
Silas Soul is his name God.
But uh yeah, what what can you how do you bracket this in years.
During the Civil War basically eighteen sixty to eighteen sixty five.
Oh okay, so you'll so it'll be it'll be carried. Whatever you're you're looking at would be carried within those years of the Civil War.
And that's my idea.
What's cool about that is it's just so unless you're a fan of the good, bad and the ugly, which I am, the the West in the Civil War is not widely understood. I mean, I don't even fully understand it. Like you are surprised to be like, oh, that's right. There was sort of like there's a there's a sort of theater of operations, yeah, in the West and desert
Southwest during the Civil War. And everybody's reading about Antietam and Gettysburg, right, but they're like they're like shooting it out in the desert.
You know, Well, I live in Santa Fe and I'm you know, I'm very curious about what was going on during the Civil War out here, and you know, there was a big battle near Santa Fe called the Battle of Glory out of pass and uh, this guy of the Soul was there, and you know, and a lot of other Shenanigan's going on out west. It's just, uh, it's a part of the story I think most Americans don't know about, you know, when they talk about the Civil War.
Uh, you just go with one of the next Yep.
I'm pretty deep into this next one already.
You still do magazine reporting, not much anymore.
Magazines aren't what they used to be. They're thinner, and they're printed on cheaper paper, and they're kind of sad shadow of what they used to be, it feels like. But I occasionally write for some Yeah, and I still have an association with Outside Magazine, which is uh still great magazines doing what it can. But no, I do. I just focus on the books mainly. It keeps me pretty busy for years at a time.
So has Hollywood come knocking about Cook?
Not yet, but maybe after this wonderful podcast any better.
I'm trying to think, who's gonna he was fifty, he's fifty, I might do my acting. Yeah, yeah, right, start too. I'll be like, I know guy, I know a guy who's exactly that for you blimey, like, no, this guy's exactly that age. He's exactly that age.
Perfect.
Oh no, I wouldn't because he was fifty when he left.
Uh.
By the time they make the movie, I'll be the Yeah, yeah, I'll be fifty three. It takes a while for, you know, to get all that under way.
Dude.
When I do my dying scene on the beach, it's gonna blow you away.
Man.
You can have Danny Bolten be the guy that kills you.
Give speeches, borrow, pull some lines from Shakespeare. It's gonna be a long You.
Look good in a tri corn hat and leggings.
All right again.
Uh.
The very excellent writer who meticulous researcher, a great eye for the unusual Hampton sides and the wide wide see Imperial Ambition, First Contact, and the Fateful Final Voyage of Captain James Cook Out now New York Times best selling author of Ghost Soldiers up on top there. Thanks for coming man, appreciate it. Best of luck with the book.
Yeah, I appreciate it. It's been it's been really fun. I've enjoyed this. All right, great, thank you see you next time.
Very well.
Le'sperados. Larry okay, and if it runs or mauntains, swim in the scene, bill bag of a saka, a turkey whel bag and then a kill it all over again.
On your hair.
It's a media a padcast for me. It's a media a podcast
For me.