Ep. 476: Fishing with Jedi Master Fly Tyer Son Tao

This is the meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.

You can't predict anything.

The meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by first Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting for el, First Light has performance apparel to support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light dot com. F I R S T L I t E dot com. Is being a master fly tire a thing? Or is that just a description?

That's just a stupid description.

It's not like.

Exactly, like somebody probably just labeled you that, right, Yeah.

One time I got a labeled it was like one of the top five tires in the world. And the ironic part was that was only time for like three years. So it's not something that I wanted that label with because it causes a lot of haters. Oh really, Oh yeah, they're like, uh, like to me, fishing is fishing, but in fly fishing you have a lot of pretentious motherfuckers that.

Are you recording, phill, Yes, I am recording that.

I have cameras, but we've got it. Yeah, we're good.

God, he's saying.

It people saying this is greeting and tying that we are Actually we're.

Joined today by one of the top five fly tires. Please out, top five in the world, the entire world, the entire world, one of the top five. SANTAO, welcome. Thanks. What do you trying to say that off air? Not he's trying to say it off air because he's saying it with a certain eye roll. I want to hear more, honest eye roll.

I want to hear more about what you're getting that.

Well, the uh.

At the advent of social media, you have a lot of people that are on there more or less just for the insta fame.

Non be talking about haters next, But what's your Instagram handle? Probably about five.

Out of the ten people that you'll see posts on there don't even fucking fish. They just post flies just for the likes. And you would say, you could look at them and there'll be like these super colorful flies that I don't know what the hell they mimic, but they pretty much. It's for artsy and it is a form of the fly tying. Fly fishing industry is some people will just tie just for the tranquil aspect of

So there's a so there's a social media. Uh, let me say something else too. The start of this thing is we have them described here as a master fly tire, but also a master sergeant. So you are a master like indisputably that's master sergeant in the US Army. Yes, questionably a master fly tire. Questionably lower lowercase m uppercase M in the military, lowercase M. As a fly tire, like you're not a certified master fly tire.

No, that is just labels that will people give for whatever reason. People like the label everything. And in the fly fishing world like you got these master casters, master tires, etcetera, etcetera. To me's fishing is fishing.

Yeah, you know what you want to know? The most annoying thing fly fishermen.

Do what catch and release everything.

No, No, that is a bottom. I'm glad. I wish everybody did that because that's more fish for me to eat.

Right.

The most annoying thing they do is they have taken certain fish and they've broken their name down to letters GT so giant Travaldi becomes a GT. Why is a bluegill not a BG? It's like it doesn't mean it, or like a yellow perch. Oh, you know I was out for yps LB's yps.

You know what, Debbie, why are you not hitting strike indicator?

So obvious?

That's just like he was.

He was attacking pretentious carp fly fishman the other day.

Which I totally agree I was doing that.

Yeah, we were talking about how stupid.

Listen, I fly fish this summer more than more than any person in America. Really, not how much I fly didn't see you do it, That's how much I fly fished this summer more than any other American master angler.

I bet the uh at the spot up there, I mean I have hours, probably two.

Into it. Oh then me and Yannie fly fish went fish and cutthroats on the I'm not gonna say like I'd love to talk greater. Do you tell about it? I have never seen anything like uh this lake we rode horses up to in Wyoming. I have never ever in my life seen cutthroat fishing like that. Nice fishing, crazy cut Bonneville.

Now you're giving away where you.

Were, dude, Like unbelievable unbelievable big black spots. What does that means? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry the fish.

Did you release him?

Uh?

We killed three?

How big we talking?

Uh?

Probably eighteen on the top end?

Sweet?

Probably eighteen on the top end, and you'd look for him, you know, Oh, so much fun man, Maybe maybe like fly fish because I'd kind of outgrown it, but it made me kind of love it again.

Man, well you had fun with all the times you went fishing with me.

Did you abbreviate cutthroat or do you call them cuts?

Gantt their giant c cts? Uh, get back to the arts and joke. So so in the fly tying world, there is there's a social media element to the fly tying world, and there are fly tires that don't fish. They're just in the craftsmanship. Yep, the artistry.

Yes, so uh like you got. You get a mix of people that will try to showcase their flies that do a lot of fishing. They showcase a lot of different guide flies, and you have other ones that will just explain that a guide fly guy fly is like basically fly that's really easy to tie that will catch sand wan warm and an egg or a midge or something like that.

You bust them out and clients are gonna lose them.

Then you have other ones that will tie, like these super intricate flies. I have like a ton of material, a lot of different wild colors, and so there's a there's a big difference flies that have been known historically to catch fish for decades in some cases even hundreds a year, like the Royal Coachman for example. Then you have these other funky wild color flies that people that are into fly fishing per se. They'll look at them and they see all these wonderful colors and they hit

But so do you like tying? You like tye and stuff that can be fish.

Yes, that's what my pretty much my account is based off of flies that actually work.

This is the most amazing This is probably I mean, I haven't you know, I'm not like a hobbyist, but this is probably the most amazing fly I've ever held in my life.

That thing's awesome.

It works, maybe, like.

Yeah, it is unbelievable the artistry and then the the life that's in this thing. Yeah.

So a lot of these are tum And do you feel like that would catch a fish?

Steve catch a lot of fish.

It feels like when I said that, I'd catch a lot of kinds of fish.

But does a fly like that earn you a master title? Or do you have to tie specific flies in order to be a master?

No, basically there's there's really no criteria. Like, to me, that's a stupid label master tire I.

Put it in the script. You guys can blame me.

Yeah, to me, like I wouldn't even come close to Like, you have people that have been time for like forty fifty years that have set the foundation for everybody else that is starting or has just started in the last ten, you know, fifteen years, And they're the ones that came up with the innovations using different type of materials, where it was like using deer hair at one point in history, or parts of a pheasant or a muskrat or whatever the case may be. It wasn't me, It wasn't like

Is there some specific old school tires that you emulate or like, really you're into them?

Yeah, more or less because of their personalities versus and a lot of cases. Also, you know, their flies are exceptional. But one of the local guys there, Kelly Gallup, he's the one that came up with a lot of these for flies here, like this sex Dungeon, the mini sex Dungeon, him and his crazy fucking names. But they actually work and they catch a lot of fish. And then other guys like Pat Dorsey out of Colorado that fishes a

We're gonna we're gonna cover off on your life history a bit, but just just to just to tee it up. Then we got to touch on a couple of things. You were born in Vietnam in Vietnam and then grew up in Pennsylvania, but you spent some number of months in uh In, not in Vietnam.

Now, I for like the first almost a year and a half of my life, I lived in a refuge camp in Malaysia. So my dad was in the military in the Vietnam and as part of the South Vietnamese army. If we would have got caught or he would have got caught, he probably would have been executed yep. And so as after the fall of Saigan, the North Vietnamese and the Communist started, you know, sweeping down further south. And the town that I was born is called Baklu,

We gave you extra years, yeah, because they.

Were still working from from what they renamed the Ho Chi Min city on the way moving down to the southern point of Vietnam.

And it was not like you turned like post nineteen seventy five. Yeah, yeah, they were still fighting their way south or just moving there.

Just moving their way south and basically implementing communism, and like every single town on that got it.

So they weren't encountering like resistance all the way.

So now now I see, Yeah, basically, I mean I was the opposite of most kids that I grew up in Vietnam. I came from a very well to do family and my grandfather pretty much owned the entire like port, so he got all the royalties of the ships and stuff coming in. I had pretty much everything that a kid could want growing up in Vietnam and then to baby basically know and and my this was my parents. I was so young. I had no idea this shit. But what they told me was that all that was

Talk about bad luck, an actual banana boat.

We left there and went to the refuge camp in palal Badong, which is about the size of four football fields, but it housed that any given time about ten thousand refugees. So it was packed like sardines in there. And that's a sour subject of itself because I refused eat sardines

Well, also being able to avoid disease at four and a half years old, it seems like a minor miracle.

The whole family made it, so that was a minor miracle in itself there. But there was a lot of people that died and they just like chucked them overboard. And it was actually Thay pirates that saved our asses because the tire ship was out of way and so we were getting raided and everybody was like swallowing all their jewelry and all that stuff because that's what they

What year were you born.

I was born in seventy four.

You're forty nine, yep, fifty in.

March what was the island called again.

Palau Bedung p u l a u b I d o ng. Then you guys spent how many months at the eighteen months there and then uh from there to US. Yeah, the US wasn't my parents' first choice because we had no family over in the US. We had family in Europe, Australia and other places, and so they they applied for political asylum and all those other countries and they all told us the fuck off, and the US was the only one that said yes. And that's how and then

The manner of speaking for The Mennonites didn't rub off on you.

I think the military soury of those beliefs that I might have had grown up, you know, but they did lay a pretty good foundation because it's basically you learned to appreciate things a little bit more coming from that type of culture. I mean, we went to their churches for a little bit, but they allowed us the freedom to basically, you know, worship how we saw failed.

That's awesome, that's amazing.

You know.

Art my mom and dad's church when I was a little kid, they had sponsored some South Vietnamese refugees who'd been in the military and for I don't know where they went, but they came in. They stayed there and my dad and him with ice fish together, which he had to have thought was the wildest thing in the world, right to like all of a sudden come to the US and like instantly be ice fishing. But but they just I don't know. I'd love to find out what

Yeah, we still stay in touch with them. My mom is still very close to them, so they she still lives like twenty minutes away from where they are.

Were you guys near Lancaster?

Yeah?

Really yeah yeah, Lancaster County.

Yeah, all right, hang tight, I'm gonna talk about some stuff. If you've got any comments, feel free, okay. I mean as a master fly tire.

Or a master sergeant or.

A master Yeah you can. You can weigh in as a sergeant or a fly tire as you see fit. Oh, one thing, what was it? I gotta replug it. I got to replug it. Where is it? If you have an event planned, if you had an event plan in northern Michigan and you need a my Buddy's bar. My buddy has a new business. He has a camper trailer rigged out like a bar. So if you're having an event, wedding, whatever, and you want a bar, there's no change of money. Like when you hire his services. You buy the booze.

Love it.

He's gotta he's gotta do like a tiki bar version of that, and then we'll do like a meat Eater podcast.

Yeah, we'll send them some forest for foods garnishes first bar too.

You better be serious, you don't know that. Roamingnomi dot com, Roaming n O m I so, roaming Northern Michigan dot com packages prices, phone numbers and all. Matt Droz very dear friend of mine from growing up. A lot of hunting, a lot of fishing, a lot of drinking, a lot of drinking, a lot of drinking. Sure h, too much drinking. What else we got? Oh? Season twelve announcement, So a bunch of new mediater episodes premiering. When is this?

It launches on October twelve.

Yeah, premiering October twelve. So you go find them. Go to our meat Eater website or our me eater YouTube channel. So the website or the YouTube channel October twelve, bunch of new episodes. We have the episode coming up of hunting black Bears in a wet suit, all kinds of stuff, Big mule Deer, Big Out, lots of cool episodes, Big Squirrels. October twelve on the met eater website and on the meat Eater YouTube channel. Brand new episodes. You can catch

He love those live tours.

We're gonna be like Tails from the tour bus.

Tails the tour bus, big trivia component to the tour. Spencer is Spencer Newhart has to go to all tour dates.

Is he driving the bus.

He's driving the bus. He's driving the bus. So it's gonna be We're yeah, we're doing a live tour over damn place, uh in a bus, which is I kind of like the idea of this bus thing in the tour bus spinal tap. So stay tuned for that. You better buy some tickets, man, better buy some tickets. Got a new calendar. I't called me Eater's dirty doesn't so it just so happens.

Oh it's coming soon.

Yeah, picture that. You make twelve seasons of a show and then you got twelve months in a year. At some point someone's going to be like, I got an idea, so this year calendar every year. Every month you follow me? Every month is a year? Eh, yeah, it's genius.

A facial expression twelve twelve smirks of Steve twelve years.

Twelve years of the show captured in twelve months, So like January is I don't know what the hell two thousand and twelve years ago.

You can see Steve age ever so slightly.

Oh yeah, a lot, dude, No, no, no.

I don't think a lot, just twelve years smirks.

So check that out. Also, Oh, Phelps on Phelps Unleashed.

Why is this?

Say, don't read this.

Because I put the whole description in it and it takes a long time to read all of it.

Those are just some highlights, Oh that you can.

Hit well, Phelps's bugle tube is is improved. I'm just gonna skim through it.

Yeah.

So, Jason Phelps, who comes on the show often host of Cutting the Distance, founder of Phelps Game Calls, has a new generation of the Unleashed Bugle Tube. I didn't think that there was a problem with the old one, but apparently never satisfied. So basically, people that had the Unleashed tube had various comments about it, and Jason being the obsessive that he is is going on and address

Nope, let's think about it.

Devastating bugles love it? Just knock them over dead with a mind bending screams. You bend their mind and devastate them thunderous chuckles and grunts. I'm sold.

We need a sound effect there.

The Unleash V two is a new standard that all beagles will be measured against. Now I gave a buddy my want to borrow. I let my buddy borrow one. Um, he went on. But he's got nothing to gain from this. He went out the way that text me how wonderful it was, and they killed a bowl. He said it was the ship and bitching.

Wow.

Yeah, So the new V two is out. Uh, here's a lengthy one. This is interesting. A lot of the news is full of uh, A lot of uproar going on around refuges. Okay's covered as fair a bit wildlife refuges in lead ammo. Okay, So certain refuges, you have states that are getting rid of that, that are banning lead ammo, banning lead sinkers, fish and sinkers, switching those over with sinkers that when you bite them, you hear your teeth crack.

Uh.

And there's a thing now where certain wildlife refuges are looking to ban or have they implemented it cal or not implemented it yet, it's a plan to implement a ban on led AMMO in wildlife refuges.

I think that there's probably some that always have had for sure in the regulations. But you know, because one of the interesting things, right when you bring up refuge it, ninety nine percent of people go like, well, migratory birds, right, And for how many years now has it been illegal to use anything but non toxic ammunition for migratory birds.

Since when I was a little boy, A long.

Time, right. So I had to go through each one of these and make sure that there was big game hunting as a you know, legal means of recreation on each one of these things, and you can't hunt white till the year or you know, blackwater refugees on here for SIKA and so yeah, you would have to switch over. But yeah, I think in some regulations it's just straight

Yeah, but neither here nor there. So the US Fish and Wildlife Service looking to add or there's a proposal or new rule going into place to ban traditional ammunition which we call that ammunition on eight national wildlife refuges, including Blackwater, chink fatigue. Don't even how to pronounce that? One Eastern neck, eerie, great thicket, Patuxent, How do you say that? Any?

No?

Close enough for me?

Patux At Research Refuge, Rachel Carson Refuge, Wallops Island. UH. The NSSF n SSF National Shooting Sports Foundation UH shared a letter that they had written to Martha Williams, and Martha Williams has been on the on the show as a guest. Because Martha Williams, who heads the US Fish and Wildlife Service, used to head Montana's State Fishing Game Agency. So in that capacity. Martha Williams was on the show before.

Very few bald eagles around at one point because of not because of lead, not because of lead, because of dt T.

But now the eagles are back.

To bring this full circle, partially full circle, we just mentioned the Rachel Carson refuge. Rachel Carson wrote if you've heard people over the years mentioned the book Silent Spring. Rachel Carson wrote a book called Silent Spring about the devastating effects of DDT on birds. It was so it was a insecticide. Is that correct? Prolific use insecticidey an insecticide. If you watch old movies that they like to have the thing where they're spreading DDT and kids are playing

A ball these strand barber wire fence a ball you.

Can hit a three strand barberier fence and die. No no, no, no, no no no. One of the things that can kill a bald eagle is lead toxicity. So the argument here is, without being able to point to any population level impacts of lead AMMO, how can you ban lead AMMO in protection of wildlife populations? And this letter makes this case.

And people make commutigate this, which this is one of the there's some things in here that I don't like the way it's written, and there's some things that they included that I do like.

But tell me some of the ones. Tell me tell me a highlight of each of those.

So population level effect, right, And we've covered this many times, so it'll just be really brief. Right, they are talking about bald eagles and and most of the and it seems like all these refuges are in Bald Eagle territory, and that's the raptor of concern. But if you had a refuge system in an area that overlapped with condor populations, a condor death could have a population level effect, and then it would be necessary to take further precautions, right.

Yeah, because a condor is a population, yes, exactly.

The other piece of this is you can mitigate that raptor eating off your gut pile by removing the guts from the field or by burying the guts on site. So this weekend, and I apologized to some of the folks I know, but lead kills really well. And I went out and shot a bunch of upland birds with seven and a half shot lead, and I made the decision to package up, even though I was like way the hell out on BLM ground. I made the decision to remove all the guts and the carcasses from the field.

So if you're in the heat, you're gutting birds, you're gutting into a bag and just throwing the bag into your game bag.

Which eventually became a really horrible, disgusting bag. Yeah, but it's not gonna go kill something I didn't intend to kill. So I did like the fact that they provided a good alternative, like a common so it's alternative.

Yeah. And then this letter from the NSSFY they applaud education efforts. They don't they're not chastising people that are making non toxic AMMO. They don't use the word non toxic. They're not chastising manufacturers of They're sort of pointing to they're sort of applauding the free market economy or the choice, but pointing out that I would not have guessed this, some of the percentages on some of the percentages on use of AMMO. Where's this stuff?

Oh the one percent of were you looking at the rifle ammo?

Yeah?

Where that too?

That copper is one percent of center fire ammo used? Yep. My social circle, like my social circle, which includes people that that use copper for a handful of reasons, some performance issues, some lead issues. I would it reminds me of one when I have a skewed sample size in

A very skin biases it, Like that's all I did.

That's a friends here.

It is non non lead.

Center fire rifle ammunition makes up the smallest share of the market and is approximately one percent of all ammunition produced.

So yeah, but produced, so that that includes all target sure.

I mean when you're buying a ace of cheap two two.

Three, I'm gonna, you know, just go do some shoot.

I'm gonna make this. I'm gonna make this relevant to our guests. Watch this. When you time flies are using non toxic Could you ever tie a fly with lead?

One of the most common means to weigh down to.

Fly is using lead reps, and you're still using it.

I use it partially. They have the alternative where it's stainless steel to also wait, but and some some patterns, the lead works way better. Let a flip shot.

He's like, lead till I'm dead? Is that what you're trying to tell me?

And then also wait with the split shots.

Yep.

It also wraps really nice.

Yes, it does, it does. I would view I would imagine that. I would imagine that the amount of you see fishing get rolled into this I I do not see this being fishing this problem, do you know what I mean?

Yeah, there's a very few states to help all lead weights. I mean New York was one of them. I went out there for some lake run salmon and I was missing some weights, so I went to the local tackle shop to get some, and all they had was the alternate. I'm like, what the hell? I had no idea kind of like blindsided me that I couldn't get lead weights.

I get the leads. So just for folks, listen, when we started talking about lead split shot, it's a different thing. Lead split shot is not. There's different ways that lead gets introduced into to wildlife center fire like deer Okay, deer hunting, that's introduced because you shoot the deer and you got the deer and your bullet fragments and is

And I think a lot of time, a lot of times they're just picking it up as they're feeding on the bike.

It just happens to end up and.

Happens oh yep, got it as straining through the bottom. But I just, man, uh, I just feel that the fishing thing has to be just like almost a non issue.

I think there's places where there's a carpet of leadhead jigs on the bottom of certain places.

Oh yeah, I can name a few.

I could go there, But I mean I could name one Lincott home that's got about forty pounds in my leg.

But you know what I think is interesting about this is the NSF nss F is weighing in on something from the Wildlife Service, this agenda, But that agenda had to come from outside.

You think it's being imposed on the Wildlife Service.

I don't know.

I don't know about that. No, it might be you know, like the stuff in Alaska with them trying to with them trying to subvert Alaska's ability to manage its wildlife. Right, that came from on high for sure. That came from like, you know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist generally speaking, but I believe that that was driven by donors. That that was driven by Now, when you see something in politics, it's so like, what do you remember when who the hell was it that got elected for mayor New York?

Class.

Yeah, I don't even really.

Everybody in the city is like what, Yeah.

That's what I'm thinking right now. I don't really understand, like what like he just didn't like the horse that.

They were mean to the horses in Central Park, Meaning it was so outside of anyone's concern, It was so outside of the campaig and you get it, and you're like that is like I don't know this for sure, but that is satisfying a particular donor who made a deal like.

Set the horses free. Kind of Yeah, I.

Mean I don't know, cal Do you know of like outside forces that were pushing this agenda or is it just.

I mean, the the lead free thing has been around for a really long time. The refuge system has certainly like a lot more traffic, right like think of like the bird watching community and refuges, So there could certainly be some lobbying from from different groups there for sure, you know. I I do think about like the where we were hunting seek a deer, Like think of the amount of copper in you know, like a fifty col Muzzleoderu Sabbot or whatever or the equivalent like twelve gage.

That's the thing to have cost, right. So that's the point this letter raises, is that lead as comes from recycled car batteries. Lead ammunition comes from recycled car batteries. And it points up just the tooling and sourcing. Meaning if all you know, it's a little bit like uh, extremes, if all states right now were to somehow miraculously say that you couldn't use lead ammunition, there's no way they would ever satisfy. It would take a long time for the demand to be said.

A hard time to find any bullets.

The letter is a little punchy, says the service's unsubstantiated statement of possible risk to hunters due to the use of lead component ammunition to harvest game is very concerning, and it goes on to it goes on to attack this this thing that came out years ago. I remember when it came out, was like X rays of deer showing how many, how much, how much lead fragmentation.

From the wound channel.

But then it goes on to say that they never substantiated this leg fragmentation. Their jack, it's a jacketed AMMO, and all they're doing is showing that something showed up on an X ray, but no biopsy to show what

Oh yeah, I mean, sometimes you know I've shot I have a seven meg. Sometimes, you know, you shoot a certain bullet out of there and the thing blows up, you know, and it lead everywhere. Other times, just yeap, clean a whistle.

If I punched Brody ten times and gave them seven black eyes.

A lot of lead money, would you.

Be able to say all punches seventy percent of all punches result in the black eye. I might have talked about this for too long, but again I just want to continue to make a clear man. If you as an individual, Like if you, as an individual, don't like the idea of the of that you leave your gut pile out. You know, if you're using certain if you're using that ammunition and you leave your gut pile out, there is a chance that you will kill a raptor.

No one ever, really, not a lot of people think.

No of that. No, you have that in the back of your head, and have that in the back of your head. If more people had that in the back of their head. This speaking of cause and you know, causal relationships, I'm just going to go out on a limit and say, hypothetically true, if more people had that in the back of their head, we might not be talking about ammunition bands right now. I don't know is that a wild statement.

I don't think it's a wild statement. We'd certainly because you know, there's a statement in this that I would follow in the list of things that I don't really like the way it was written into this letter. There's a really specific study on falcons eating lead paint off of water towers where these falcons nested, And in this letter it kind of says like, all birds land on water towers and build nests on water towers and eat lead off of water towers. But if you talk to

Got it. Do you know we have a great horned owl roost.

Under our saw the picture that awesome.

Yeah, he lives in the He lives in the eve supports.

Must You don't ever see skunks or raccoons or anything wandering around.

You know.

It's a fun parallel here for our guest is the fact that the millinery trade was one of the things that absolutely decimated all types of birds, mostly pretty birds, all across the world. Uh and fly tying has its hands in that.

Yeah, a lot of blood on your hands. Buddy, it's a long letter. Oh Phil hit us with the fish and lures song. He'll appreciate this, son, Am I saying your name right? Son? This is one of the best songs ever written. It really is. This guy is the weird al of fishing.

Email here, which was a niche we had?

You've had You've had how many hours to get this thing scored?

Only kind of little Jimmy Buffett vibe.

Baby, this was not what I was respecting.

Love fishing.

I love to cast them while I'm drinking a course for a while on the rocks and drinking the doors. Clever, little mechanic, cold works of all.

I love fishing.

Scott wouldn't want any fewer. I'm a better fisher man than you are.

When I'm at the morning good store, I love loading up my call.

This guy who's like I can rhyme anything.

Give yeah, just gonna cover it, tremble hook. Sometimes your lime gets not in some blooded some skitter on top of the water. Look at that big mass. I'm glad that I caught her. This guy's got a Rhydey dictionary. It's like Eminem. I think Eminem stole all his ship and this guy.

Some of the red all.

Kinds of exotic coups as your boating paddle.

The solo is amazing, love.

Can you imagine him doing that with one hand while he's recording here.

I would be poor, so so effective. I think I could catch fishing the sewer design.

Little These are real crooners joining.

That professional mass fishing.

I can see some success, like doing the old folks homes, like in around like something.

He's from buying Falls Michigan the Artist.

Uh oh, your buddy should get him to tour around with the barge.

For a like three time Cola.

George Peter Block, Junior Boying Falls, Michigan's the Artist. Unbelievable artistry. You think those flys are cool? That song.

That's Grammy material, That's just unbelievable.

I'm just gonna give this ship up now.

Yeah, yeah, you're gonna like you're like, I went into the wrong business. I should have been a songwriter. All right, let's let's die back in, walk me through getting from well, let me let me let me do a quick recap. Uh, just because people might so blown away by that song.

It's hard to focus.

Your father fought, Your father fought for the n R no.

How's it go in our the South Vietnamese Army h N r v N r v N was it?

No, no, no no.

The n v A was the the opposite opposition A r v N. I guess I know.

Southamese Army got South Vietnamese Army.

Yeah.

You were born the year before the US pulled out of Vietnam. Yes, US pulls out of Vietnam. Your family was from the south of Vietnam. The Communists came from the north. Your father saw the writing on the wall that he would wind up in a re education camp or wind up executed. Yep, you guys, flee, have a treacherous journey to Malaysia. Correct, apply for asylum all over the world, and get asylum in the US. Correct. But

He did prior to the actual official US involvement. I don't know, like all the details of it, but I know like in the fifties he had worked with some of the initial advisors that came over to the Vietnam and then from my recollections, I believe it was some of them that helped get.

Us got okay. So that's what I wanted to jump to, is how you at this point you're in Malaysia and you're how old?

Uh got there? I was about four and a half.

Okay, fly tie and not on your mind?

I was staring at with sardines.

Sardines on your mind? And then you come to the US and what happens like like, how did you get accepted? You get your asylum, gets accepted, and all of a sudden, what a plane shows up? How does that work? You're in a you're in a refugee camp in Malaysia, Like how does it you get a letter saying you've been given asylum in the US?

Well?

Then then what uh?

Like I said it was, I don't know like all the details, but that Menna knit family from Lancaster, Pennsylvania helped us with the paperwork and then eventually got us onto the plane where we end up landing in California and then was there for a couple of years while I guess with getting our green cards and all that other stuff.

And then how many family members, five total.

My brother was born in the refuge camp, so I got a younger brother, a younger sister, and mom and dad. Okay, and then eventually that that Men and Night community got us over to Lancaster, Pennsylvania and helped my parents find work and whatnot out there.

And how what in the world did you get like, how did you ever even get introduced to fishing?

Well? When I was when I was a young kid, basically being an immigrant, I didn't have all the luxuries of most other kids where parents spoil them with toys or whatnot. So here was poor. We were poor shit, and so we were playing like with sticks or hand me downs and whatnot. And then my first fishing round was like some old Shakespeare spitting a rod that my neighbor couldn't sell from a garad sale and he gave it to me.

You know, you're into the real bottom end tackle, one of the shit that doesn't sell out a garage sale. Like when you go to a garage sale and you look at the rod and choose not to buy that rod. That's a rough rod.

Yeah, from what I recall, we had like thirty pound test line on it. I know the difference between four pound test line and eighty pound test line. Back then, all I knew was that I could use it to catch fish.

And then the guy gives it to you.

Yeah, he gave it to me. And then where I grew up there, there was a small creek that runs through the area. It was only gosh, maybe half a mile from my house. It runs through the little community park there and h Connostova River and in there everything from car up to all sorts of panfish and smallmouth pass and the homeline yards, and so that's where I pretty much spent most of my my child who was just basically fishing there that that creek.

Were you self taught?

Yeah? Yeah.

Were there other Vietnamese dudes running around or was it just your family?

I think we were the only minorities in the whole town, Right.

Did you guys feel some pressure on that or were people pretty accepting?

People are very accepting.

I mean, uh, they probably knew the history too, right, Yeah.

Like Pennsylvania gets a bad rep because of like the Lester right, because of Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, but everywhere in between it is very very conservative. And that's how that that community was a very conservative community. And then the kids, they pretty much everybody just took them in. So there were a couple of kids there that went to the same school, most of them were on the older side. And then a lot of them helped me out too by basically just showing me some of the ropes.

Do you this has enough to do with time flies or fishing, but do you feel when you were growing up and and and you were young and Vietnam was still fresh for people, what did you encounter like a feeling did you encounter among Americans? A like like a guilt for withdrawing Vietnam? Like when people met your dad, Okay, people meet your dad, and your dad served in the South Vietnamese Army, was there sort of an implied like, oh man, I'm sorry, no that thing.

No not maybe if I had growing up somewhere else, But like I said, the area I grew up in, it was very conservative. People kept their opinions themselves. They pretty much left you alone, unless you know they you got involved in their business.

Uh huh.

So people had opinions, they kept it themselves. So I really didn't experience it any of that. If if my parents did, they shielded us from it.

Yep.

So growing up, growing up, going through school, well, I mean I really resaw.

That got it. But you were the only Vietnamese kid around. Yeah yeah, And were you raised around people who weren't Mennonite too.

Oh yeah, like this, Uh, they're actually the very small minority there. There's uh Menonites, there's there's Amish, and then there's obviously all the other Christian non denominations and whatnot. So the school I went to, I mean I think there was maybe ten twelve minorities all together with the class of about a thousand, So it was predominantly Caucasian area. And I really didn't have any friends growing up there

And they these were kids that grew up hunting, fishing.

Yeah, that's probably one of the reasons why I listened to country music. Also, very confused.

Did your folks have any sense of did your folks have any sense of fishing as a as a sort of recreational pastime.

They didn't care as long as I was bringing fish home.

Oh so they liked the fish.

Yeah, like my culture, they we don't waste anything and I catch a fish, they ate it. So I didn't know the difference between what was a good any fish and what was.

A horrible mudfish.

If I caught it, I brought it home. I mean, like a lot of fishermen out there is like they catch, they keep everything they catch, the conservation and none of that shit was really in the back of my mind as a kid. I mean, I brought carp home, and then it was finally my mom was like, don't bring this shit on anymore because.

She got picky.

She got picky because it's so hard to clean because there's so many bones in it. All I saw was just a big fat fished everybody.

So let's say you brought a carp home. How would she prepared it when you were a kid? What were you eating?

I think it was basically drowned in a lot of fish sauce and other seasonings to actually get rid of some of the mud taste at it. From my recollection, I only recall eating it a handful of times, and then she complained about it, and I never kept the carp again.

So what if you brought a bluegill back or a small off pass back the way we prepared was.

A little bit diff where generally American culture they'll filay the fish, you just eat the flats, and then with a lot of the Asian cultures, they'll got to take the gills out and whatnot, cut the fins off, and then they'll either broil or defried the entire fish after the scales are obviously removed. The like probably one of the tastiest part is the crispy skin.

No, uh, you were getting introduced to American style food though.

Yeah, yeah, I mean at home almost everything was still Vietnamese food. But we were getting the slow introduction because like as a poor kid, I got foods the meal tickets, so all my lunches were the basically cafeteria food, and that's vast majority of the introduction I had to American food, where I thought that slop was like great, yeah.

Like Salisbury.

What'd your mom do with the her mom and or dad do with like the squirrels and deer and other stuff because he was hunting in a lot.

You're un small game too, Yeah, I mean, uh, it was very very different being forty nine years old and when I grew up where I was riding my little bike with a shotgun on my shoulder for five miles next down to go hunting, and nobody would think any different. And I mean there were times where I rode my bike by the sheriff, like we had one sheriff in the town and waved him good luck.

Were you were you self taught on the hunting thing too, or do you have buddies you ran around with?

Or I started basically just.

Squirrels were the first thing that we shot, yep. And I didn't have a weapon at that point, like a rifle or a shotgun, so neighbors let me won yep.

That's how it went.

Back then teach me how to use it. So I kind of figured how to use it on my own. I mean I took it out to the back of a farm they had gave me some twenty two rounds and figured out how to use a rifle. Common sense was a big thing too, like, you know, this thing's gonna fire a bullet. Might want to aim in a place where I'm not gonna kill myself. So I figured out how to use it. And then as time went by and some of the other caliber weapons and whatnot.

Did your siblings get into it?

Now? They're like one eighty of me. I mean, if you pictured, you were just like you were.

You were just obsessed as a kid. But it wasn't universal in the family.

Yeah, if you met me and my siblings, you would think I was adopted.

Because of what they're into.

Yeah, their total opposite is I mean, they're your your typical nine to five professional CPAs and finance And even when I mean I started off down that route when I finished college and then went and worked out for RCA own by Thompson Multimedia when I was an engineer, and but in the back of my mind, I was always just looking forward to getting off work so I could go fishing or go a hundred. It was a

That was yeah what, Uh you went to college first?

Yeah, I went to college first. And then uh those years where they're kind of boring, was more or less just focuses on study. And then where'd you go to school? Lehigh? And then uh from there we uh just went to work. And then it provided an astronomical amount of money for a kid that my age, that had nothing before.

So did you have a lot of pressure from your folks to go to school? Oh?

God, yeah, like if we didn't get like they were into the whole American dream thing and all that. Yeah, I mean the stereo type for most Asian families. If you're not a doctor, you're not a lawyer, you're not my kid. So, uh, there's always been a lot of pressure. They always guild us with the fact that you know, we gave up everything to give you guys a better life, and they would give trip the shit out of us.

Doesn't fall into that category.

Uh no, but it does play big part into turning me into who I am today. Because of the upbringing I had and the rules and the strictness that my parents had and whatnot.

Give me an example of the overrule the strictness.

Basically, eat everything you have on your plate. So I was raised never the waste food.

Because you guys knew starvation man.

And so even to this day, even I do not like what is before what's in front of me, I will force myself to finish it. And sometimes it gets me pretty difficult, like and where my travel is going through Europe or some of these trying some of these local cuisines that I was just like, I would still force myself to eat it. And then so that's basically Appreciate what you have is another one because you never know when it's gonna be all taken away. So basically

So what was it your decision like to get in the military.

Well, nine to eleven happened. I was working. I think I had just gotten back from Paris. The like I said, the company zoned by Thompson, So I would spend several months at the year traveling to France, to Poland, to Mexico where they had their their factories. So anytime that we completed something with R and D, we would go out there implement that technology into the factories in the

To the TV.

So like most other people, I felt bad. I wanted to do something. I went and gave blood. I mean, there was a lineup there were to give blood. So I gave blood, and I felt that still wasn't enough. And then I was thinking about things I could possibly do to to help like basically America. And then I got that phone call from also my dad, and he's like, hey, you you really needed to do something to join the military or something to pay back our you know, our family's debt to the US.

Because where was he calling from.

Uh?

Well, at that point, my parents were divorced because all the years that they spent working all these long hours, their relationship kind of like just like uh disappeared. And at that point, you know, the kids are all growing up,

But you went in as a trained engineer. But you didn't go and become a you didn't be like, I want to be in the corps.

No.

The way I looked at it was, uh, well the corps was a different story.

So they were actually I mean the Army Corps of Engineers.

Sorry, but the Marine Corps was the first one to a corps. Yeah, but the recruiter was was a lazy son of a bitch, and he wanted me to run the background check and my fingerprints. He was actually having me do all this stuff, and I was I thought that was what you're supposed to do. So it was actually coming back to the Marine Corps recruiting station with all these documents and whatnot, and then I found out I was missing something and I had to go again.

They never lied to me.

Yeah, But the difference was my recruiter actually was a really good guy, and he was actually trying to talk me out of going to the infantry because I had maxed out my ASVABA. My scores were off the charts and I could have done anything. They were offering me all these military intelligence MOS's the job, along with civil affairs, all the stuff that requires high test scores. And I was like, no, if I'm gonna give up three years of my life to make a difference, put where the

You know what you asked for.

I got what I asked for and for. But uh, to all the young kids out there that might be thinking about the military, really consider your life choices. Infantry is very rewarding. You're gonna have a brotherhood of people and the combat of arms that you will never experience anywhere else. Do a lot of cool shit, and you're gonna do a lot of stuff that's really gonna test

The the body you gotta give up. The body and the brain you're gonna give up.

Both those are two big.

Parts what's left because after twenty two years of service. I've already had eleven surgeries to fix all sorts of different elements by me I have. I may look very young for a forty nine year old, but I probably have the body of a sixty year old. And then your brain will also start start failing you too, because you're gonna go through some some really troubling times when you're gonna you're gonna have to have some metal fortitude

But it is a very ruarding mos at uh.

I want to keep on the chronology, but let me ask you this. At this point nine to eleven you going into the infantry, are you just eating and sleeping, fly tying.

I wasn't even touching that yet once you're aware to some of it at this point right, nothing, I mean, you know, there is such a thing as a fly rod. For like ten years, my first ten years I was, I was gone a lot, so when I got back, I'll spent more less.

Where all did you get sent to?

Iraq, Afghanistan, Southern Philippines, Kuwait, so Middle East? When I got back, my first duty station was Korea. I was really upset because they weren't deploying all they do.

But that's really common though, right, Yeah.

It's really common. A lot of first assignments there are to places that you actually don't deploy out of and then your next one. Now, the fortunate thing for me and my mindset back then was it was only a year and then I was able to pick whatever assignment I want. So I knew that Hawaii was getting ready to go.

Because did you.

Get bumped up in rank because of your education?

Yeah?

I came in as a specialist four on an E won the E nine scale.

I got another totally off the off subject, not off subject, but out of chronology when you were in So, when you're stationed in Korea and you had time off, would you drank? No? But can you with your background and your family, would it be inadvisable for you to go to Vietnam?

Actually, Uh, that's a really sour subject because my grandfather was dying and I was out in the field training and my family, my mom called the unit to give them a Red Cross message to let him know that my grandfather was dying, and a flight from Korea to Vietnam is really short and it's very expensive, and it was I could have literally gone just like that on

So.

Yes, I could have gone to the Vietnam to answer your question, but that happened while I was over there in Korea.

Yeah, and then and your family would not have been pissed about it.

Now Yeah, Now, my family pretty much has allowed me to make my own life choices and do whatever I want. Is just live with the repercussions of my choices, and that's how they pretty much have treated I mean, yeah, there was always those pressures doing well and whatnot. But at the end of the day, all my parents wanted to be.

Was just happy. Yeah. So you spent time in when you spent time in Iraq, Afghanistan, these are long stints of time or short in and outs, or.

They were all VERI the longest I was there for was fifteen months straight. Yeah, fifteen months straight. And then the shortest I was gone for was six months, and then you had nine, twelve, fourteen's all mixed in there and you were there, and what role combat operations for the most part.

Yeah, as an officer, as a non commissioned officer.

As a non commissioned officer, okay, because by the time I went on my first deployment with my second duty assignment there, which was Hawaii, I was already a sergeant and five then. So that's the difference with the military versus the civilian side. You could be like a twenty year old you wreck a sergeant or a corporal, and you're alread gonna have three to four people that you

Yep. Twenty years, twenty two years, twenty two years.

Army has changed quite a bit. There's a lot of things that I absolutely love and I wasn't looking back on it. I wouldn't change anything I had done. But at the same time, the way it's right now with me coming up through basically the entire duration of my time in through all these wars and conflict and having certain expectations of how people should be and how soldiers should be has changed quite a bit. Now that we're considered like a peace time military, got it, And that's

You just don't mean you don't want to, you don't feel the need to be there during peace time.

Yeah, the drive isn't the same anymore, along with you know, other factors like my body is starting to give out. And I've always been one of those that you can't tell people to do something you can't do it themselves, You do it yourself, got it? And I'm now at the point where I cannot be as physically fit as I used to be, where I always pride myself that

So when you talk about surgeries you had, you had, you had injuries within the military, yeah, I got you, I got you.

And then within them from doing certain things, and then also just the wear and tear where we would do certain things as an infantryman where you have to be able to carry a thirty five pound ruck a pack on your back along with your weapon, your prograss I mean all in all, you end up carrying probably close to sixty five pounds wor a gear and you have to do that foot march twelve miles and under three hours, which you either can walk really fast or you have

When after Afghanistan had gone for twenty years and people started to draw parallels between Afghanistan and Vietnam, and then we pull out of Afghanistan in a way that seemed reminiscent at a minimum, right of our withdrawal from Vietnam. What'd that look like after having spent time there? What was that like? Emotionally for you?

It was it was disheartening. And I'm gonna leave it at that because I'm still an active duty remember, oh, and I might actually say something.

I might We'll talk to you.

We'll talk to you in a year Yeah, talk to you in a year and I'll tell you very passionate feelings about that. But it was very disheartening. Yeah, because there were there were there were good men and women that that lost their lives on how it was handled.

Yeah, I got it. Still not time flies start.

Time flies in the seven years ago is when I started. Okay, so what happened seven years ago? So I was getting ready to leave Hawaii. I was still recovering from some of the injuries that I was getting medical help for, and at that point right there, I was really not doing platoon sergean't work anymore where. I was just getting ready to PCs permanent, change the station and leave Hawaii. Packed up all the stuff, they shipped it off. We're

Pretty hard in Hawaii.

In Hawaii because the one thing I don't want to get too far ahead of myself. But one of the things that like with non commissioned officer or leaders in general in the military is when you have soldiers that you're responsible for, you will put it on a facade in order to present that appearance to those soldiers. So you put it on up a wall, and you always have to show because they're gonna mimic everything you do. So even if I wanted to be or pissed as

In Hawaii, Hawaii. It was huge bonefish, man bonefish.

That was my first fish on a fly rod. To me, it was just a.

Fish, but you caught it on a flat in Hawaii.

Yeah, huh. And so unfortunately, soon after that we we left Hawaii and moved to my next assignment and again got all caught up in uh in the military, and didn't fly fish again for for almost like six seven months. And but were you like not at all?

You weren't thinking about fish?

No. You know how my mindset is when I get a focus on a very on specific task, I get like obsessed with making sure it gets done right. And the task that I had on hand was that we were certifying National Guard guardsmen before they deployed overseas, and we wanted to make sure that they knew what the hell they were doing, otherwise, you know, they could suffer casualties.

I just went there right then, just went there right then.

And it's walking around checking out all the boats and the hunting lodges, and I.

Mean the radio ads work man.

And so when I got over to the Fishing.

Air and visited the guy that did the ad by, I want you to know I literally came here because of that radio.

Ad when you said the exit now, yeah, yeah.

It was very similar to the guy that does those four wheeling ads where they you know, they're yelling and screaming, come check this.

Out right now, you know, I will, damn damn it, I will.

And so I went and then when I made it over to the fishing area, they had a very little small corner there just for the fly fishing. I was checking out the no show and eventually I made over to the fly fishing area and then I got I was I was hearing, hey, soldier, come here. Who the hell's calling me? I realized I was still in uniform. So there's a organization called Project Healing Waters fly Fishing and they had a chapter there out of an Indianapolis,

You shit me because you had your uniform on.

That's how I had a big target on my Bag's like, yeah, there's a soldier. So went over there and they start telling them about themselves and what they do and now they help veterans overcome disabilities, whether it's mental or physical. You're like, I having to know a guy and how they healed through fly fishing and whatnot. And I was like, oh,

Intervention dude, and it's like God was like talking to you through your car radio.

And I am was left though on my first outing that they had So being being a soldier, you kind of feel like you're almost an outsider to civilians at times. Uh. You change over the years, and one of the things that changed about me was I didn't like being around strangers. I didn't like being around crowds. I didn't like it being around in an environment I couldn't control. So it's that fight or flight mentality, and I was getting that

You know, man, I don't know if that's particular to that, because that might be your age shining through too, because I got that problem bad. Even ship.

Could be that too, and you come found them with the military, and then you exceptlified it even more.

So.

I was actually getting ready to leave and I was walking back to my car and I was about to drive off, and this older gentleman my name, Oh, I'm sorry, you're getting ready to leave that first fishing outing.

So they host you on a fishing outing. Then you get there and it was too much.

There was too much going on, and.

So you're almost say, never mind, this isn't for me.

Yeah. I literally walked to my car, was hopping in and then.

This this unannounced you're just leaving.

I was just leaving.

I was just.

And uh, this gentleman like in a way that was weird. No, to me, it was normal, was like but I mean like in a way they would be like, wow, that guy just left. Yeah, I'm sure they they deal with that quite a bit because they deal with a lot of soldiers that and veterans that are going through quite a bit. But this guy named Joe Smith, he's uh find out you know, he's the program coordinator there. He's like, hey,

Deal, and another veteran.

Uh sometimes sometimes just a civilian that just wants to help out.

I used to do that, and I was I just teach people how to cast and take him out on the river and the drift boat and stuff.

And I had no idea where organization, no warriors and quiet water. And so they partnered me up with somebody and then took me out to the area where there was a bunch of crappies and with a fly rod, and they're showing me some basic gas and whatnot, start catching some fish and then kind of like slowly forgot about everything else, all the anxiety that I was dealing with,

Yeah, and so an if you got a if you got a soccer ride out with a bell on the end, you can still be pounding some drinks and thinking about the war.

Let, the circle, the job.

But you're constantly so busy with a fly rod that you kind of like start tuning everything else out. And that's why that it really helps with with the mental healing aspect of it, because you tune out all that noise. And uh, that's what tying is. Was Also, so.

When you were when you guys are fishing crappies, what were you do you remember what you were throwing?

I think it was a little pheasant tail o. It was whatever he tied on then.

But did you take any particular interest in it at that time? The fly?

Uh?

Sort of because of the engineering background, I was more intrigued on the howism to everything, So I uh, even to this day, like the first time I looked at the fly I was deconstructed on my brain, like how is this thing put together.

Got it. I mean you just looked at the world that way.

I look at the world, look at a camera system, and I think it's the same way, Like how how's this lens put together, how's the glass, how's the magnification, et cetera. Everything I look at I deconstruct.

You've been eyeball and that old Triumph trap right there.

I mean, if you think about it, it's probably why the Japanese and the Chinese are so far advancing technology because they steal all American ideas deconstruct everything to their engineer. But yeah, so I look at stuff and I started deconstructing. It was the same way with flies. It was the same way with the cast. It was the same way with how the fly rods built the physics behind it.

Fly as a thing. Yeah, and I.

Googled fly shops in Indiana, and then there was this shop there called fly Masters of Indianapolis, and it was literally the exit that I take home. I passed by it almost every day and had never paid attention to it, small little corner shop that you just you wouldn't, dude.

It's like it's like it's like it's like a screenplay.

Yeah, it's almost like this entire screenplay was going through. But it was like there, right there, that exit. And then I pulled that that parking lot and came in and uh, super friendly guys in there. Derek, he's the store manager there still works this day.

Big shout out Derek.

Big shout out to Derek. He's a great guy.

He was the name of the shop again, fly.

Masters of Indianapolis. So I went in there. Uh Now, the stigma behind Mo's fly shops is like, if you don't look like you're you can spend money, they kind of like ignore you because the stuff in a fly shop is expensive as heck, there's no going around there.

You think that's true. It is not the not the price, but you think that that you think that, you know it is too like the one time of year I going to buy a few leaders and stuff. You know, I don't know.

As someone who managed the fly shop for a few years, you know, you know who's coming in to buy a spool of tippet, and who's coming in to buy a rod?

Got it?

And you're gonna spend more time on the guys buinder.

It depends on where you're at too.

Yeah, yeah, I mean you've got locals that are coming in that you're seeing every couple of days and they become your buddies.

Sure you can also go to remember the last majority of the fly shop owners are still the old school, older guy mentality. Where it was like a a a gentleman's type sport. And there's a big difference in nine hundred one thousand dollars rod versus somebody that's gonna go to Walmart and buy, you know, a fifty dollars kid and the ones that looked like they would shop at Walmart. A lot of those guys kind of like tend to ignore quite a because the don't think they're gonna spend the money.

Yeah.

Unfortunately that that's the case with some fly shops, not all. And unfortunately for me, that wasn't the case with fly Masters. When I went in there, they they were cool. They were really cool and answer a lot of questions.

Okay, so if you're a dirt bag in Indianapolis and you want to be treated with respect at your local fly shop.

Well, not all fly shops sell tying stuff either, Yeah, because it's a million different skews that cost three dollars.

You know what I mean. Change. I can't pinpoint the time, but it used to be like every fly shop, in order to be a fly shop, had materials and then all of a sudden.

Like wall in my mind's eye, right, yeah, it's actually a dying art over in the East Coast, if you go to any of these fly fishing clubs, the average agent there is probably closer to sixty five seventy. Now, it's different out here in the West because it's still popular with the young folks, because it's it's activities. At most of the colleges you go to Colorado, it's it's the vast majority you'll see on the people in the

Whence it comes down, it's trent. It's trendy here. Yeah, it's like.

A well, it's been that way for decades. It's not even it's not even trendy.

Since the time I moved out here.

Yeah, but I would even say it's like, at a point, it's just the reality. But it's not even trendy. It's just like it's it's a it's a discipline or a pursuit that remains alive and well in a part of the world.

Yes, but unfortunately a lot of those older customer bays are starting to pass away, and then along with them the drive to tie flies, and there aren't enough replacements coming in to basically take up the helm of all these guys. There's more guys that tie flies and fly fars that are passing away than are guys that are taking up the sport parts of the US.

I want to just pause for one mix. I want to make sure I'm clear on something. Going into a fly shop and having the big wall of all the hackles and you know, dubbing, that's becoming not a thing. I didn't. I didn't know this.

A lot of Yeah, lots of shops have gotten rid of that because, like what Brody said is it takes up a lot of retail space and your return on that retail space is way lower than like your soft goods or your hard goods, and so like your clothing, your waiters, stuff like that, you have better margins as a retailer.

On Yeah, you get someone like Sun coming in messing up all the materials and then you spend an hour putting everything.

They ring it all up. He's got like thirteen bucks for stuff.

Brody's got to get the ladder out getting up there.

But there's a big However, that because depending on the market in the region of the US, some shops will survive solely on tying materials because the return on the tying materials is actually far superior than it is on hardware. Because you can go on there with five hundred dollars and you might walk out with a small little brown back with him cials. It adds up, yeah, five dollars, seven dollars.

You know, you think about that that hackle that whites whiting hackle, like that stuff is not cheap.

No, Like, just to buy a basic entry gate grade cape is forty five bucks just for one color of a specific ackle. And that's where a lot of people, when they jump into that rabbit hole is. They look at books, they'll see all the materials, and they think they have to follow exactly that material list. And those guys there will run into every fly shop and they want to tie this fly or that fly, and they will have a list and they'll buy this hackle because

It's very addictive. Do you know the editor and fly tire uh and writer Jay Nichols? You know him at all?

I know the name. I've never met him though.

We lived together, Okay, Yeah, and I remember going out and U shooting pine squirrels and their tails are awesome. Yeah, him taking that hair and putting in his coffee grinder, you know, bacon make it like because he used to tie for the shops.

Yeah, right here, this is the claws on this crayfish or pine squirrel.

Okay, yeah, he used to have like he just sit there just like I guess what you're calling guide flies. Yeah, you know, not all the time, but he had a lot of times would spend time just tying and tying and tying and tying to go sell him at you know, Grizzly Hackle or whatever the hell it was.

Yeah, but like fly shops are awesome, and for anybody that that hasn't gotten into fly fish and that's looking into it, develop a relationship with your local fla shop because they're the ones that if you if you don't one, they're probably going to go out business because all the big box store competitors is going to price them out.

A lot of them.

Do like tying seminars and classes and stuff. Did you did you do any of that at at that shop?

And Indianapolis I did it with healing waters and eventually going full circle. I came back to fly Mass and I did some demos for them for customers.

Yeah, so how do you become once you got into it?

Uh?

I guess ninety whatever, I don't know. Ninety nine percent of the people that start tying flies sit down and tie what they use, Okay, and they're just it's just functional, right, You're just tying them because you want to tie the flies that use Uh, how did it? What is the jump where it becomes artistry? Well, I would because you're you're not known now as just a dude that can whip out a shipload of pheasant tails before he goes out fishing.

I wouldn't say ninety nine percent. I would probably say close to the fifty percent. Nowadays, with the influx of the younger generation getting into tying.

I mean that people are into the artistry. Yeah. So more like your bread and butter fishermen are buying flies. Yes, and tying has become like like is it is tying retro now?

Tying Uh? For many, like especially with guides, is a means to an end where they're supplying their own flyboxes versus having the buy.

Out of financial considerations and so that's still a.

Thing that's still think for others it's they the flies that they tie with their patterns. They know it's going to work better than anything they can buy, got it. So again it's still a means to an end, nop. And then for that other fifty percent, it's either for the mental health or just for the artistry. Just I mean, at the end of the day, if you look at it, it's adult arts and crafts. That's all.

It is, arts and crafts.

Sir.

What was the first fly you tied that had some sort of merit beyond just being a thing that someone would go and snag in the bush behind them and write it off. That's another loss fly right.

Probably Again, this here will be the obsessive compulsor nature of me. When I started learning, it was through books. Healing waters helped refine all that, but I was I had some books I was looking through there fly Masters of Indianapolis again, they gave me my first fice had no costs because they have, like I was telling you, on the East coast there and even the Midwest, you have a lot of people dying off. So these widows

Book, they gave it to you. That's bad business. Bad business.

Hits free good?

Is that right?

What they had to repeat customer. And so.

I was reading this book and reading about the history about the flies and how we got to start over there in the UK, and then how the early pioneers through to Gordon in the early nineteen hundreds took some of those British patterns and fashioned them to flies that would work in the fast moving waters up there in the Cassicall Mountain up in New York and turn them

The ginger quill.

Ginger quill made out with mallard flank wings and uh strip peacock quill body hackle hold on yards. So I'm looking at this flies like I got to tie this thing. So look through the materials, didn't have it, went back to fly masters. But when I needed came back home start tying this fly. It looked like something that fell out of a bull's nose.

But with the.

Military background and the engineering background is like fur feathers threat ache at the best meat. I'm going to tie this damn fly. When it was all said, I tied about one hundred and twenty of these flies until I got it looked like wow, until it looked like that fly in the book, having no idea. That's not how you should start tying flies, because there's very simple patterns.

Yeah, if you just started with a San Juan worm, things could have gone.

The funny part though, I was so proud of myself. I like, I tied this this ginger quilt, ginger quilt, just like the one in the book. And then I discovered Google and I typed ginger quill and the modern version look nothing like the ones that are in the book. Over time, it looks so much furtier the modern verses because we have better materials nowaday.

And the modern version looked better.

Because of the better quality hackle. When the materials there's you get genetic hackles where they.

And you're you're working off some old ass book from the seventies or something.

I'm taking working off a picture that was taking probably like nineteen oh five. Got it and my fly looked nothing like the modern versions. So I started all over again, and so I got it looking like the ones that I would solong on uh on Google.

And meanwhile, are you at least fishing this thing too?

No, I was gonna say, what what else did Google tell you about that fly?

Dude? If you just saved those hundred and we could make a big display case the progression top to bottom, the one hundred flies lined out, it would be a nice little thing for the auction House of Oddities.

So that fly right there was was the first. It was a fly that really right there.

Oh, let me see this fly was, huh, the.

One that really got me going down the rabbit hole.

I was picturing when you when Chester just showed me the picture I was pictured something look like those old crazy Scottish like Atlantic salmon flies, right yeah, like like like Chester's crazy, not crazy, Chester's tattooed is uh.

So when it got to me, I was tying for about eleven months now at that point, and a lot of it was just meet dabbling, figuring things out on my own and having no idea whether I was doing anything right.

But no tying those flies on under the end of the lead where you were.

I was fishing a lot of midges, pheasant tails, hair zier.

So you're fishing meanwhile.

Yeah, I literally tied every fly that was in that book, The Founding Flies, written by this gentleman my name, by the name of Mike Valaf from New York, so he's still around. Actually met him.

Years later at he tried every fly in his book.

I tied every fly in his book, and that included deer hair patterns, the streamers. These were all it's called like basically forty three masters guys from the nineteen hundred to the sixties that were showing their famous patterns there. And I tied like each of the ones that I saw in there. So I was figuring out how to do stuff. I was probably doing it very wrong, but I was spinning deer hair at that point because I

We're not aware that these competitions exist at this point.

I had no idea how big this was because to me, I thought it was just like like a local chapter.

This is so much like a movie. This is like the part and Karate Kid when he finds out about the karate contest.

Yeah, so I tied five of these fan wing fan wing quote Gordon's and five of the stimulators, which is very popular was created out of here out west.

And were you? You weren't You didn't happen to be like in a romantic rivalry with another.

Tire where nobody even knew who I was.

He was not like, you're not trying to win a woman's favorite. I'm just thinking about the movie here. You're not trying to win a woman's favorite through fly Time. Well, you gets like a real asshole who's good at times.

Well, there's somebody at the fly shop and you guys reached for the same hackle at the same time, and he may have said something discriminatory and then you reunite the competition.

So my buddy, his name is Joe Jackson. He's from Indiana. Also, he was also that that got out from from disabilities.

There's another Joe Jackson from Indiana, the Jackson the family.

Oh, never minding the competition too.

At one time, Phil says something I had no idea that he totally derails the conversation.

Nobody gets it, continued, He submitted flies also, and I didn't I didn't know that he had submitted flies if several people from that same program, and so they invited all the files. I was notified. You know, I was one of the top five finalists for this competition. And then there was this International fly Time Supposium in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and they paid my way to get out there, put me up in the hotel, and then come check out the show. Who was tied at the boots so you

When they do when they do analyze them, are they deconstructing them? Are they just looking at.

They're looking at them. They see if they all look the same, the proportions are correct.

I'm surprised you don't need to tie it in front of them.

Well, you eventually do that if you. I mean, they have a like a little boot there where you get an hour block and you said, had.

You worked your way up to like a real nice souped up rotary ronsetti vice yet or you're just working on that same one that they gave to you.

That was advice they gave me was ritt yea, they gave you.

A good one. Tell me this vice again, I never heard of.

I gave you.

My daughter's is a rinsettie, the old one. Hey tell you. The only thing we tie on her his lead ahead.

Well, either way, that's like that.

Yeah, there's some other good companies that make them. Thank you. What's it all the rubber bands and whatnot on there?

Well, because there's a little piece on there that keeps keeps the flex on the jaws and that rubber, you know what I'm talking about, goes around the jaws that broke.

So I just put a rubber.

It's a round zetti.

It's a rubber zetti.

I don't know.

Yeah, they're based out of Florida.

And that's the cats asked for. Cast me out for vices.

No, I have, I think only eleven vices at home.

What's your favorite?

I really don't have one particular one. I use them all because they all serve a different purpose. There's a couple that I bought them because they're they were cool to look at, but functionally wise, they weren't as good as some of the other ones. But like Norvice is one of the ones I used quite a bit. Rensetti Regal was another good one. There's a lot of different companies.

It makes the most kick ass pair of little scissors.

UH company would call it the renowned because they're they're based off of German scissors. Yeah, and they're sharpes scissors by far. I mean, the engineering behind them is phenomenal.

Now, what could have what could have fell a uh put into a pair of scissors? Good pair of scissors. Oh yeah, you're.

Gonna say something crazy no, you can put more money into advice.

I'm a scissors like a scissors enthusiast. Yeah, you want to.

Get a pair of really good scissors. And so, uh, going back onto that time competition when I was there, they started announcing all these winners off, fifth place, fourth place, et cetera. And then finally it was me and Joe left and then they announced Joe. I was just, you know, the first runner up. I'm like sitting there like this. They really even down on me. I was like everybody else is gone and I'm still sitting there at the table. You yeah, that's one of like the guys around me.

First yeah, first runner up is confusing. I remember entering an essay contest and getting the letter when I was in high school, getting the letter that I was first runner up. I thought it meant at one, and then someone had to be like, no, that's not what that means. You're like despike the word first. It's like your second.

It's a more flattering way of saying second.

So first and second place ended up being two guys from the same program. It was me and Joe, but.

Out of people from around the whole country.

Yes, yeah, it was pretty cool.

Did you guys have the same mentor Uh?

He was there quite a few years longer than I was. I was just I was still relative that they knew there, So I really don't know how he Uh he was taught. I know, he was self taught a lot of stuff. He does a lot of deer hair stuff also, but he was very involved with the program at that point, and I was like the new guy coming in.

And so what was the average these guys that are tying in this in this competition? Were you guys? Were you guys relatively young?

I was always relatively old compared those other to other tires, Yeah, that are in the program. Most of these guys are either veterans that that did you know, three years, got out some disability, or got injured in their seventh year. So you had the vast majority of them are probably I mean, it's gonna vary between programs mid thirties to mid forties, yep.

And but I guess that it's great, and that's an interesting thing that I could appreciate that because you stayed in for so long. But what I meant was the fly tying, the competitive fly tying community in general. Tens old. Yeah, okay, yeah, So I don't know if the eyesight thing eventually bombs ye out or.

It does, but they make cheaters and everything you can wear for them, Like I have really good eyesight. I mean we see it about twenty fifteen or so, so I have that advantage with my eyesight. But the other part to it was like back then it was one huge competition where first place was against everybody, whether you've been tying for six months or you've been tying for six years, there was no difference. Nowadays they break it

Will look at these and what is the Instagram account?

It's a Sun Underscore tel and so they they started looking at these flies and next you know, like I get these notifications. So and so is following. You were like, what the hell is this person doing. I didn't know what it was. And I started getting these messages and I had no idea what a DM was. And then it was my cousin that told me, hey, somebody just likes what you're posting up on there. And eventually I had a question if somebody could ask me like a.

Demonstrator, like don't worry, you don't have to go kick their ass, like they just like what you're doing.

I thought it was just my friends that were following this account. I realized that strangers that I could just follow your account. So somebody had asked me to post a like detail how I tie in a specific technique. It's like hackle wrap or something like that. So I tried to explain, but it was taking me long, so I just recorded the video and I posted up there and the next you know, like this video I had

Yeah, Oh that's cool.

Same deal with Like that's a good part of the movie too, right, manufacturers of most of these vices, Like when I went to Sims with Warriors and Quiet Waters Foundation, I mean, I'd be remiss if I didn't bring them up, And we talked about that a little more a minute. But when I first came here for my first outing with Warriors and Quiet Waters, they took us to the SIMS factory to outfit us with with SIMS gear and along give us you know, fly rods and whatnot taking

Do you.

Will you fish with a fly tied by someone else?

Or is that no?

I have no problems doing that, Okay, I won't fish with flies that are tied overseas and the sweatshops right because they're they're garbage.

I'm sorry. I didn't know that that was the thing till till a couple of years ago that that had become a that there's a couple of countries that where is it somewhere?

Yeah, Kenya. Now there are some companies that are very good and they take very good care of those workers, and some.

Are what percentage of flies in these fly shops do you think are tied overseas?

Ninety I bet I would say probably close to the ninety five percent, much lower in some of the local shops here, for example, like a huge fly fishing community like Montanam Bozeman. A lot of the fly shops here probably maybe fifty percent, maybe a little bit more. So the really good one will support local tires. And then there are some people that tie commercially and that's all they do, eight hours of a day is just tie flies for shops. I mean, I'd rather stick up food

And it'll be like a carpal tunnel component to that shattoo.

And then just the for me, I would get bored doing the same reea when you get.

Into order for yeah, that's when inconyms and you just gotta do the same.

A lot of people that ask me the tie flies, how much did I sell them for? And I don't sell flies for.

That, So you don't make any jingle off fly time.

Uh No, I don't sell anything, make any money off of it. I just do it basically. I enjoy it, you know, So yeah, you don't.

You don't make like you don't just sell where I could just buy this. As a person that collective flies.

Now, there are times where I will put together like a shadow box or something like that, or tie like two or three dozen flies for silent auxs and charities. And then because I don't sell flies, then those those shadow boxes, those flies that are meant for fishing and whatnot, they go for an astronomical amount that helps those organizations out.

So you just live off your army money.

Uh not totally. I mean I would be lying if I said that, because like on Facebook and on TikTok for videos, I get paid for.

Some of the views.

Yeah, so there's some secondary income that comes off of that. I mean it's not you can make a living off of it per se, because I don't have like the millions of followers on YouTube or whatever. But it's enough to pay for a fishing trip here or there.

So now that you're retiring from. Now that you're retiring from the army, what's your plan?

Well, a lot of it's gonna be boiled down to what my wife wants to do, because for twenty two years, she well she's her and the kids have followed me around the country and then pretty much had really no say in the matter other than where we're gonna live once we got there. So they're gonna play a big part of it. I know they're more tempted to go back up to the Northeast to be close to the family because my mom's starting to get up there in years,

Retirement making nervous.

It does because after doing it's almost like prison. The military. You had a structured lifestyle for twenty years and now suddenly all that's gonna go away and you're going into that civilian force and you're on your own. So yeah, anybody that says otherwise that was in the service, they're lying.

All my buddies say it's hard, it's hard, and I mean for years right after. So yeah, it's a challenge.

The other challenge is basically because I've always been in charge of large groups of people for so long now that everybody had to listen to, you know, orders that I gave, and going to civilian workforce ain't gonna be like that. I might have to work for an idiot that is no better than somebody that should be sitting by a dumpster somewhere.

But yeah, you should be looking my boots, buddy.

And I end up being a subordinate to them, and I have to bite my tongue. So those are things that you know, I am concerned about because somebody didn't like something, or I didn't like some the way somebody's doing something, I'd give them a nearful and then they would fix their their shit. And that's how the military works. That's where the discipline comes in. And I realized I'm not an idiot, and I realized you can't do that

I got a friend I tell this story all the time. I don't know if I've ever mentioned it on the show here, but I have a friend who retired from the army, and then one of his teammates retired from the army, and right away as teammate killed himself. Yeah, I texted him, I said, I said, we were texting about this, and I'll always remember the text. The kind of one of the most compelling sentences I've ever received in a text message is I said, I don't understand, like,

Difficult subject to talk about because it's such a huge problem with veterans. I mean, there's all sorts of different stats. I'm not going to bore anybody with these different stats, but on average, you know, you have veterans that are over fifty percent likelier than their civilian counterparts that ever served to commit suicide. And the early parts of the war, He's very correct. They threw you into the waywell west

Mark, which is kind of a big deal for people.

Yeah, it was something to look forward to. So we were all looking forward to it. We're gonna be home by Christmas. Tell any of our loved ones, et cetera. And then the first elections happened in Iraq in two thousand and five, and they extended us for an additional couple three months, and they moved us to another area up there in Missoil to help oversee the security for these first elections.

Their talking about some phone calls.

Man, oh yeah, I mean, holy shit. There were zero shits given about the repercussions of some of these actions because the war had to be fought as soldiers. You know, it sucks, but we did what we were told, So we went through all that. We get back and you basically start taking thirty days of leave right away. Now the military is like a mountain pot of all different cultures, upbringings, backgrounds,

What's the battalion size?

Italian size was roughly about nine.

Hundred and five suicides in one year.

We had I think it was close to eleven and three years, and these were most of these kids were nineteen and twenty five, never deployed, So it's it's there's trauma that that soldiers that deployed have, and there's also trauma that soldiers never deployed have because the lifestyle sometimes is enough for soldiers to push them one way or another, and a lot of vast majority and I think this also applies probably to all civilians too, where you start

So say that one again.

You could text, call, or chat and it's completely anonymous, and they're a nine.

Eight eight short core and well it's like nine but different.

Just text ninet eighty eight yep.

And then let me explain a little bit about that one.

And I'll put a list of organizations and resources in the show notes, but if we can verbalize some of that on air, it'd be helpful.

They're available to military and civilians, it's to everybody. And if you ever are feeling down and you think that you may possibly hurt yourself. You could text, call, or chat with somebody and then they will get you professional health and no cost to you, and it's available twenty four hours a day. The other one stops soldier suicide. They have the the one eight number that's also twenty four hours a day where you can get professional health

I like, well, man, I appreciate the you being so open about it.

It's tough and there's some things you know, I'll be a blunt I don't like talking about it because it brings back bad memories, it brings back people that I've cared about. But I feel it's important because there's so many people that are taking away their lives way too soon, not realizing there's more to come. I've gone through my fair share heart ache two and try to utilize different means to drown out that pain. And I still get nightmares nowadays. But at the same time, you have to

And there are organizations like Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, Armed Forces Initiative, others that are in the outdoor industry that are vets support.

I know that you.

Work with Warriors and Quiet Waters a lot too, so feel free to share about that.

Yeah, so I came here. Gosh, it was like I think two thousand and seventeen or twenty eighteen, and the program was a little bit different than they brought. I think it was six of US veterans. There were three Navy Seals guy, two other guys that were out of the service altogether because of injuries they had sustained. And then you had volunteers. Some were prior militaries. Some had

Warriors for Quiet Waters. I went and gave a talk there because they're doing some stuff unhunting right now.

Yeah, they have like basically, I think it's a six month hunting program yep, where you teach o the fundamentals of hunting from you know, selecting equipment to all the way the end result of stalking and firing that boat.

A lot of those guys probably know their way around to rifle pretty well already though.

Oh yeah, yeah. Let me hit you with one last question. Twenty two you've been married twenty two years?

No, No, I've been married eighteen years.

Eighteen years.

Yep, I met her after being in service for about four years.

Hit us with some marriage Hit me with your best marriage advice.

You're never the boss, that's the god.

Honest.

This goes out to men and women, men and women, but mainly to the men, because most of the men thinks they wear in the family the pants in the family. How I kept my marriage together compared to most other soldiers is every time I deployed, I came back like a different person. And then while I'm gone, despite my what you may think, life goes on. There's still bills that have to be paid, there's still kids that need to be fit, there's still diapers that gotta be changed.

If they come in pissing on your post.

And that's how like that was the success to my marriage is coming back and then allowing her to still do whatever she wanted to do while I was gone, and then she wanted me to take over something she would vocalize it. I never pretended like I was in charge. I knew after my first deployment there, I was no longer in charge because she was strong enough to handle an entire household with kids while I was going.

Because I travel a lot for work and have the whole time I've you know, known my wife. She a while came up with a thing where she said, if it's not going to be a big deal when you leave, it's not going to be a big deal when you come home. And there's a lot. There's a lot to that.

I also had one thing before we end it. So with fly fishing, regardless of your level expertise when it comes to it, there's a these shows that it around all over the US. If you ever want to dip your fingers into it, just check what I was like

Then thanks man, Good luck fishing tomorrow.

Hopefully it should be a good time of year with a hopper season here in September. This is like literally probably the best month of fish here in Montana.

Got some cooler tamps.

Yeah. And then, so here's a litt unknown fact, useless fact that I'm really good at. Is these hoppers, grasshoppers, crickets or whatever, they have a parasite called the horsehair

I thought it was all accident. I thought he meant to land somewhere else, But landing in the water.

They all land in the water for that reason, because those horse hair worms need the water in order to find a meat. So that's why September at early, my.

Kids must be infected with that parasite land in the water, no matter what they're doing. All right, man, thanks for coming on. Man, it's been a great conversation. I really appreciate it, and I appreciate all the you know, I don't want to call it advice, but the guidance for people who might be who might be in a you know, in a bad state of affairs, but fear that stigma or fear reaching out. So I think it's it's great for you to speak to it from that, from that

Yeah, Like if I'd reached one vet that's listening to the this podcast or watching the YouTube, then yeah, I don't care how much it hurts to talk, then it was worth it.

All right, Thank.

You, Thank you.

A ride on on.

Seal Grey shine like silver in the sun.

Ride ride on alone, sweetheart.

We're done beat this damn horse today. Taking her new drive. We're done beat this damn horse today, So take a new one and ride on

MHM