Ep. 409: Lung King

your help. I'm going to be at the National Wild Turkey Federation's Annual Convention in Nashville, Tennessee this year, and I'm looking for the best Turkey storytellers alive. Now. I know we all have a good turkey story to tell, but I want you to think about who you know that tells an absolutely riveting turkey tale a person and that draws everyone in the room to their story. Bring them to me. I'm going to be at Ryman's Studios in the same building as a convention, set up with

recording equipment and fill. The engineer is going to be there to make sure it sounds great. I have a goal of creating a national archive of hunters stories, and my first stop is the Southeast because I know you all down there. It can spend a good story. This is our oral history. I believe there's immense historical value to these stories and they should be preserved for future generations.

Don't let your grandpa's stories die with him. Bring him to the convention and have him spin a yarn for me. The stories can be funny, sad, educational, exciting, but most importantly, they have to be engaging. This is where the good storyteller part comes in. All storytellers will get twenty minutes to tell their story, and I will be on hand

to ask questions to fill in the blanks. We'll be recording at Ryman's studio see from nine am to four pm Thursday, Friday, and Saturday of the convention, which is February and eighteen. There will be posters directing you to our location to sign up for a time slot. Ahead of time, go to the meat eater dot com and search Turkey Story sign up. We will also have sign up available on location at the door of Ryman Studio See.

Met Eater will use these stories in a forthcoming audio project, most likely in podcast format, so they will be available to everyone as long as the Internet is alive. So please come to Nashville for the National Wild Turkey Federation Convention and bring me the best Turkey storyteller you know. Are hunting legacy depends on it? Okay? Joined today by

Brodie cal Spencer, Phil Crinn, and Dr Jonathan Riceman. Krin described some as a medical doctor, hunter author, and the man who wants to overturn the federal law against selling and eating long I want to overturn uh Yeloso National Park. Let's join forces. You know, well do mine. There's a couple of things I want to make it so the whole country is the blaze orange laws or orange hat crossing cart like Supreme Court ruling orange hat nothing more,

nothing less for firearm, honey less, but not more. Then I want Yellowstone to be turned into a wilderness area and all the infrastructure removed, just the main highways going through it, and just a giant just to restore it to a pristine state. Think about that. I'd support it, And you wanna um make it that people can buy and sell long right, you can buy and sell it as a dog treat for dog food, but you cannot buy it or sell it or serve it in a restaurant for human food. I got one for you. The

says nothing, do a long. I thought we'd put this question to rest, but this is a medical question for you. There is a phenomena. This is gonna get mighty scatological because there's a lot of stuff. So if you don't like scatological stuff, just move on. Do you guys remember when we explored the phenomenon known as deja who meaning Spencer, I wrote about this for our website and get a fact checker on, go ahead? What would you come up with on that? I don't even remember that. Uh that

it's it's going to explain what it is. Deja poo would be where say you just got done hunting deer the day before and you were successfuldn't do that one, but go ahead, now you go ahead and laid out then rabbit, Okay, rabbit is the worst offender. I'm just going to quickly define scatological relating to or characterized by an interest in ex from the next creation. Started really wearing me out. It's starting to wear me out. But

you know how stuff like leads. Okay, Spencer, they defined deja pop. I'll read you the claim for how I This is how I lay out fact checkers on our website in this article is called fact checker. Does gutting dear make your farts smell like guts? That lays it right out, Okay, And here's the claim. After field dressing a kill, your gas will start to smell like animal organs within twenty four hours. This observation has been made by those who pursued deer ducks, pheasants, and other game.

So in this hypothetical, you were successful rabbit hunting on say, Saturday morning, and then Saturday evening you have a bowl movement and you notice that your bomb movement smells like the rabbit guts, and that's what you call deja puh. Yeah. So Dr Riceman, you'll come into this in a minute. So we had explored this and I think someone want to saying the reason they call it dejacu? Who is

he thinking? He was? Some person was explaining and some medical professional was explaining that it's a trick of the mind. It's a trick of the brain. Um. I was just on Rogan's podcast and he and I were doing some hunting afterwards, and he brought it up to me because he knew a person who was a bear guide and their daughter was exposed to so much bear skinning and bear gutting, and she was having such bad gas that smelled so terribly of bear guts that she had to

go home from school. Wow, had to call her mom to come get her. I told, I told, I told Joe. I'm like, it's not I said, we we kind of explored this. I don't remember the details, but it's not. It's a trick of the brain. And I said, alternately, if it's not a trick of the brain, what it means is somehow those microbes have gone in your nose, gotten into your gut, proliferated in your gut, and it inhabited your gut and then passed out as flatulence, which

just like seemed far fetched to me. Who sent her home? That's what I want to know. She opted to go home, She called, here's the gut, here's the takeaway I got from from the physician. I talked to you about this phenomenon. And then then as Dr Riceman's turned but they final because this is this is probably right up his alley. They said, there were potentially two things that are happening here. One is that the nose hairs are tramping some like

microparticles that were related to what you were doing. And then when you have like a strong smell later, you're you're smelling that again. So it's like you're physically smelling that same thing you smelled earlier. It's one possible explanation. The other explanation is that, uh, your old factory receptor cells are strongly tied to your memory, and that smells are like the strongest thing that you can tie to your brain when it comes to recalling something, and that

your mind is just playing a trick on you. And then when you smell something bad down the line, it makes me makes you think of that thing that you just smelled earlier the same way. That's the conclusion that we can do before. But this was not satisfactory to my interlockertor. And this this physician said, the same thing happens, like if you smell cookies and it makes you think of being at Grandma's house or something like that. Memory

is strongly tied to smells. But what they did rule out it is absolutely not that you're inhaling um a bunch of fumes that get into your gut, that come out your brand. They're breathing your gut. Yeah, that's not. That's not the case. Dr Roisman Scott aloge Go was definitely up my alley and my my daily job. Basically,

I would say, I guess a few questions. You know, whenever we try to show causality or do a medical study, we always think of confounders, things that are confusing it and leading you astray from I already like this answer, So one did the I guess My question is did the person eat any of that meat between gutting it? And we'll eat the gut taking a dump, or eat the guts or the meat. I guess. I'm not positive that would then change the smell of their stool, but

that could be something. Whether or not they ate it is a question if not my hands. And I want to give you another ex like the hypothetical that happens to me if I were to be um like bow fishing or duck hunting, and I'm wading through some like really swampy, nasty water um that has like some deep mud into that swamp smell is the one that I recall worst, like way worse than a gut pile or something like that. But it's that swampy water smell, So

I'm not eating that. What's that got to do with parts, because that's that's what I smell. La, I'm smelling the swamp. That word he flagellates that swamp essence back again. This is a phenomenon I've never experienced. But I can't just shot a rabbit. He got some pellets and the guts smelled real bad. No problem. Do you know what I'm

talking about? When you're waiting, like through some cat tails in a swamp, and that's that's what I smell the strongest later But then later on I don't really smell that stuff. That's because it's not traumatic to you. This is this is a symptom of a post traumatic stress. I want to some context. It's not always about eating it. Yeah, I want to rule out he's saying confounding factors. Eating

is not a factor. Right. So another thing, I would wonder if the flatus or the stool always smelled that bad. What was that word flatus? Oh that's like fart stuff like that. Yeah, you never already today Like wow, this flatus smells like the animal I got it earlier. Yeah, So I guess I wondered that the plate is always smell that way and just because you had this stinky experience in the recent past, you're now associating it with it. The other thing is I seriously doubt you're inhaling microbes

that are then populating your gut. Otherwise you could do like a fecal medical transplant just by inhaling stool, and that has not been demonstrated yet, but maybe more research is needed there. So you're buying, you're weighing in on the memory thing. I think it maybe I guess if I had to put my money down to be a trick of the memory that it maybe it smelled that way or similar, uh, and it just reminds you of

that recent smell your head. Or the person who's hunting also eats a lot of maybe wild game or or oh full or something that makes their stool smell in that particular way. Or I can't remember the last time I gut it an animal and then had like a full change of clothes ready with, you know, within a period between them in my next constitutional movement, you know. So I think there's all sorts of traces of smell.

If my dogs tell me anything on my pants, on my hands, on my jacket, nose hairs, do but what does that have to do with I think that would be like somebody taking the poop and they are smelling, you know, parts of the animal gut and stuff like that, but it's remnants on their boots, remnants on their pant cuffs, or reminance on there be there whether they went and defecated or not. Yes, it would, it would, but they're picking up on that extra scent and and saying like,

yes exactly. And when you go to the bathroom you kind of ruffle your clothes in some way. Maybe that releases some more of it. That's not it, dude. What it is is this. It's it's a trick of the memory. Here's the way to test it. Get a bunch of season to rabbit hunters old rap okay, Get a bunch of seasoned rabbit hunters who have rabbit hunted in forever.

Not hard to do, right. You get some guys who haven't been rabbit hunt for five years, ten years, Put them with a person who's prone to deja pu, okay, have him. You pay attention to this because this is a little do you do you publish much in academic not as much these days. More you're more and well if you get back into academic check this out. Get all these people and you get a rabbit hunter. You

haven't got a whole bunch of rabbits. Okay. He then changes his clothes, takes a shower, goes into the room full of old rabbit hunters who haven't rabbit hunted. What's the verb for for? What's the verb for flat weights? Um? To be honest, I'm not sure if there is one produced latest Perhaps he produces this individual produces flate is He's like, God smells like rabbits, right, Well, they're in an air tight room warm. Do the other people think

it smells like rabbit guts? That's how you test this. So when when we publish this article, the Facebook comments were littered with mostly dudes being like, my wife claims that my farts are the worst after a pheasant hunt, which I think is is awesome. I want to tell you how I know that. It's it's in your memory, It's in your head. I wrote this article in November.

This had never happened to me before a few days later, I killed the deer, and that night it happened to me because I had been thinking about this and he was on my mind the same way. When I was in college, I had never heard of sleep paralysis, didn't know what it will. And then we had a whole class one day about sleep paralysis, and it happened to me like two months later. And I think it was just like I have a weak mind when it came to that kind of thing. Uh. And then I was

exposed to it and it happened. Yeah, Like if you told me right now you had testicular cancer, heaven forbid, my nut would start hurting, like I had that same type of problem. That's specific. Oh yeah, if someone tells you they have a problem, instantly I get an ache there. It's either I'm like very self centered or very very what's it called, uh, empathetic? Empathetic, incredibly empathetic or or uh or something worse. Okay, I'm gonna we got a

bunch more medical questions. This one. I don't want to let me do it kind of quick. A lot of people backed up Krin on cilium fiber. Krinn was saying as a backwoods technique, staying in scatological as a backwards technique. She eats cilium fiber, which is meta mucil. It's in meta mucil. But this is the just the pure ingredient, single ingredient itself. Yeah. It uh forms a gel inside your intestines. I mean in a way because it absorbs a lot of water. Yeah. Yeah, helps keep things clean.

As Krim mentioned, also grabs cholesterol on its way out. This guy says it's more than safe for your listeners to take it while they're out in the woods to have a cleaner stool or a white bliss pooh. Where do you buy? What do you buying? That? Definitely um, well, Meta mucil or any other cilium containing product is or any fiber supplement is really good at keeping your regular getting rid of cholesterol and other things, slowing the absorption

of sugars and other things. I've thought said recently, if fiber was a new pharmaceutical drug be held as like a medical miracle, like the effects on metaball like health CARDIVASCAR health are pretty astounding. They get a Nobel Prize too. Maybe those health benefits plus you don't you have a white bliss poop so many I like, I put this to bed. This frozen we're talking about how to be responsible out on the ice or responsible in the wintertime.

Or whatever when you're when you need to go number two out in the woods or out on the ice, and so many microbiole just rode in to contest the idea that somehow the cold temperatures will render it safe. That I can't put it the rest and I have to bring it up once again. People like, if you're trying to save back here, you make it cold. They're like heat kills it. There's no it's like, that's how

you preserve it is by freezing it. Don't make the mistake of thinking that if you vaulted in the ice and somehow will later be safe for users of the water in the summertime. We got letters from a septic processor, multiple microbiologist. Everybody's fired up about that. I'm glad we got that cleared up because I didn't like your vaulting idea. One one bit oh, one last thing to add um before we get into the before we get into better stuff.

I was I was laying out for my kid, my argument about how my growing unease and skepticism of of these fall turkey seasons where you can just rape and pillage for turkeys in the fall, and how I think it's shortsighted and taking the turkey for granted. I told my kid, I was saying to him my argument that I said to him, if God didn't want your hunting turkeys in the spring, he wouldn't have made spring. And he said, why do you make fall? A great question? Sharp?

So I had stuff saying that. All right, Dr Riceman, where do we begin? Man? Um, where do we begin? Let's talk talk about your background a little bit. Sure, I grew up in northern New Jersey and suburbs of New York City. Um, normal suburban um upbringing, had no way what makes it normal? Well? What is normal? I guess? Um? I guess typical maybe typical suburban New Jersey upbringing. Um I guess by normal, I mean uh, specifically like related to outdoors and hunting and fishing. I had no exposure

as a child to any of that. Never ate any kind of wild game, probably till my twenties. Didn't know anyone who hunted, didn't know anyone. No one in my family even fished. I never went fishing as a kid, Like, had zero exposure to it. Didn't know anyone who owned a bow or a gun, never even thought about it. I mean meat meat came from the store, you know, cuts and meat. I mean, I knew they came from animals.

I just never thought more about it. Wasn't interested in it from either a being horrified perspective or interested I want to learn more perspective. It just was not It just wasn't on my radar. I mean, I guess if you you know, if you don't know anyone who does it, you never I never read read about it. I mean, I guess I didn't even really read like adventure books about the Old West, as many maybe young boys do,

so maybe maybe that would have piqued my interest. I guess I just wasn't exposed to it in any way. So it's a complete blank in my knowledge and experience. What what happened to uh to burst the bubble? Um? Well, I was an undergrad in New York University, and I

don't even know how. I just got interested in wilderness survival. Um. I took a wild edible plants tour of Central Park in Manhattan and kind of learned to identify my first few plants, um, first few trees and first few edible We have found some raspberries, things like that Central Park in Central Park yeah, what else did you find? Like ginko?

Beloba trees are kind of all over Manhattan. They're supposed to be sort of the non fruit bearing um sex, but I guess a lot of them end up bearing tons of these stinky fruits that have an edible nut inside. You often see um, actually elderly Chinese people gathering them in New York, and many times I've gone up to them and been like, what, how do you process it? What do you do with it? And they didn't speak any English, so I didn't learn anything that way. What's

your exposure to that? I've often heard that every since, like like the Chinese women will gather the gek. I actually didn't know that. The My exposure to ginko was

probably in high school. Um, just going to health food stores and seeing that in the shape of the leaf on a on a box of tea and starting to buy, like the teas are supposed to be kind of calming effects, supposedly, and then looking up around me and seeing the leaf like on falling from trees in New York, and so I really exactly and then I was like, I wonder if this is the same exact thing or something slightly different.

And I do remember seeing these little kind of fresh you know, it's like a I don't know, it's kind of like an uh an acorn hazel nut size, kind of green outer shelf. It's fresh. And I just remember seeing those and wondering, like if I can pick them up and eat them like a squirrel, you know, but maybe it's nasty because it's New York City, so I shouldn't do that. So what would you define as elderly?

Elderly Chinese woman? How far behind his crew? So she's got we'll check back in with your in forty years. You're gonna get a tax message. Are you picking? Well? Now, I might start. I might start real early the next time I go back to New York City. Let's see. So that did it? You guys like Lamb's Quarter and Lambs Quarters. We didn't see the station. We saw poor Man's Pepper. Um, we did see Lamb's Quarters. Um what

we saw Kentucky coffee tree. I mean a lot of the I guess all those trees were planted by a human at some point. Um probably the poor Man's Pepper, the Lamb's Corridor, the raspberries were not and just sort of naturally ended up there, but I guess either way, it was sort of being able to identify a tree and then later seeing that tree again, especially Ginko below

was kind of all over Manhattan. UM, that sort of just got me interested and just lets I wanted to learn everything about while that will funge I wanted to. I hadn't gotten into hunting yet, but it was sort of getting into you know, tracking and trapping and making everything from stone tools to wooden longbows, high tanning. Yeah.

Living in Manhattan. Actually my dorm room I lived right off four Street, UM near Union Square Park, and like my dorman literally literally started having like you know, half made baskets and like bark shavings. It was a mess and some like dried animal hides. UM. My roommate was not happy. Was it like, was it motivated when you got into early now, I was motivated by a reverence um for like Native American skills. Was motivated by that you were going to go live in the woods. I

think both of those were important. There's definitely that like romantic romanticization of the past and pre contact Native Americans and how they lived you know, quote unquote in harmony with nature and when you read a lot of that literature, you end up getting sort of infected with that romanticization.

And I definitely thought about going off, maybe not living in the wild, but certainly exploring it, understanding it, learning how to you know, to identify all the wild critters in it, how to live off at least knowing how to live off of it was a big interest. And you got into braintand yes, Braintanding started picking up road kill. To my parents dismay, and how was that going? Um?

I loved it. I mean, you know in suburbia is like great for roadkill, I mean the deer, hasta fed deer or littering the streets basically, And uh, I started picking up squirrels and making you know, raw hide songs out of their skins, and braintanding the deer, highest raccoons, not the underwear, just like long leather strips. Yeah, long leather strip I got excited for a minute. I suppose you could. But it was turning a tidy profit out of the dorm room and we could put some of

that on the website. So were you learning how did you learn how to braintand like actually like using the Yeah, um, sometimes just from the animal I picked up, sometimes buying separately. Um, whatever brain was on sale at some ethnic market or grocery store. Um. All this before we went to med school. Yeah,

this is all before I went to med. So I came to med school sort of with this kind of understanding of um, you know, of skin from the high tanner's perspective, and sort of just a deep interest in early humanity, how they lived, how they made everything, where they got their materials from, and how they used different parts of the animals body to make tools and other things. And were you eating a lot of wild game at

that point? I was not. I did. I did have a few instances where some as you know, my friends and family knew of my strange interest in road killing. More than once someone called me about a deer that was not dead yet. Um by the time both times, by the time I got there, it was dead, and so I butchered them and ate them. What was the variety of road kill you were picking up? Squirrels, deer?

Did you like, have any cats, dogs, coyotes, anything like that. No, raccoon's possums, although I guess I wasn't impressed with the first, so I didn't end up keeping it. But I would say raccoon, squirrels and white tailed deer were the big ones. And where were you in this tanning? Like in your dorm room? So a little bit in my parents garage and my parents backyard. And after a while they kind of stopped asking me what is that smell? Because they

really didn't like hearing the answer. Um, But yeah, I had, you know, like my father came home from work one day, I was scraping the hair off squirrel hide in the garage, or you know, they'd go into the backyard and to be a deer hide and laced into a frame back there. Stuff like that. Yeah, I mean I loved it and still love it. I don't have as much time to do it, but it opened my eyes in many different ways.

How familiar you were familiar as a youngster with kosher law? Correct, though I didn't follow it, But you're familiar with it, vaguely familiar with it. Now I know a bit more about you know a bit more about it. Are you familiar with I don't know if you'd call him a sect or what the hell you'd call the habbad? What would you call the habbad? Yeah? I mean it's one of the I don't know if sect is the word.

It's one of the kinds of ultra Orthodox or it's like, it's kind of an organization of um that ultra Orthodox that tries to proselytize two Jews that are less religious, never to non Jews. Jews don't proselytize the non Jews. Yeah, So I was tagging along with a Jew who is being proselytized to by the Hubbad and I got so since I was there anyways, I asked a question, and I said, how would it? How would you go about? I'd like you to back this person up or elaborate

on this. I said, how would someone who's keeping kosher how would they be able to consume wild game? He said, you'd have to catch it in the net and then bring it unharmed to a kosher slaughter. Is that is that your understanding? Can you explain why that is so? Um? There's many many rules in kash rout, which is kind of the collection of rules that we think of as you know, to produce kosher food. UM. Many many rules, like mind boggling number of rules that you have to follow.

But one of the big ones is that all blood must be drained out of the animal. Um. So there's some rules in Kosher where let's say, you don't eat pork because it's quote unquote dirty, but you don't eat blood because it's so holy it should be left for God. And some say that's left. Yeah. So it's sort of the spirit, the animating force of the animal or the

human is in the blood. And so actually, you know, in before I'm not sure what year, but many centuries ago millennia, go Jews ritually slaughtered animals and the big temples in Jerusalem. People describe it as look running with volumes of blood. Um. So some think it might be left over, even though we don't ritually slaughter in that way anymore. Um something maybe that blood letting or getting all the blood out is part of the it's sort of left over from that ancient tradition of of slaughtering

and it was offering to God. I gotta interrupt because I wish we had that Remember that picture someone sent to score in We're when we were on the when talk about Samaritans, bunch, what were they in? What the hell country were they in? Think where they had that place where you hang all the lambs and kill them. And they had those special troughs to collect all the blood and diverted into like a big master took that up. I wonder if that was if that was in the

West Bank. Actually, I was kind of half paying attention to anyhow elaborate like blood collecting. Right well, Brad, I, right, well, you're getting rid of the blood in the case. In this case, so you would have to catch the animal, hang it upside down from its time quarters and slit its neck. Specifically, uh, someone trained to be what's called the show it would have to do the slaughtering. Um. That's how you say that word. Yeah, And usually that's

a rabbi, though not always so. For instance, in in a halal, the sort of Muslim version of Kosher, any Muslim can do the actual slicing of the neck, but in in Kasha has to be someone trained to do that. So if you're if you're slaughtering cattle, you're not obligated to get that thing hanging up by it's hawk alive? Are you you are? You have been to a Kosher slaughterhouse.

They put chains around the back legs and lift it up and the cows moving its face off and then if someone gets in there with a knife about this long, you would be like a knife fighter to get in there. I don't know, perfect man, that part can like hypothetically be botched as well, right, Like if they don't have a clean knife swipe that animal then is not kosher if it doesn't die a certain way within a certain amount of time. Is that correct? I believe the rules

do stipulate that. Yet it has to be like a very sharp knife. It has to be very quick and clean. Um. But yeah, so getting the blood out of the meat is a big part of it. Even the liver. You actually have to to take the liver out of the body is not kosher. Even if that animal is kosher, you have to actually cook it over a fire, uh in some way to get the blood to all drain out. And only then is it kosher to eat what It's true? Explain it to me again. You have to get the

blood out of the liver. You know. The liver is a very bloody organ, like when it sits in your fridge every day it does a new pool of blood around it. Um, So you have to actually slowly cook it. So buying raw kosher liver these days is basically impossible in the US. It has it's already slightly cooked and to get the blood to drip out can't be cooked in a pan because the blood would then sit around it. They cook it on like a great basically, so all the blood can drip out of it. So they're not

eating blood sausage. Definitely not only God can do that, I guess. And then just to stay on this subject for a second, on the kosher slaughter subject, is there is there's an inspection of the animal then to determine had it been healthy correct, correct, And it focuses on the lungs. And there used to be actually a more involved process where you have to check I forget if

it's seventeen or twenty something body parts. But sometime in the Middle Ages, all the grabbis decided that we can just check the lungs and they'll sort of be a proxy for the health of the whole animal. So when you're in the kosher slaughterhouses, a bunch of slaughterhouse workers, you know, moving the half carcasses along the ceiling and the racks that are moving along the ceiling, and then there's a bunch of show hits and rabbis that are

looking at the lungs. So after they cut the animal and open its chest cavity, they pull the lungs out, bring it over to a table and look at the surface of it to see if there's any white scar tissue on it, which would be evidence of pneumonia or other lung infections in the past. And these are religious figures, not not food specialists, correct, But there it is. It's

a career path you can go on. Many rabbis do choose to get trained as a show hit to then go into that industry as well, like a side hustle. I suppose. I like to imagine that they all started the same and uh, there's some back and forth and like, hey, so what are you gonna do? Right? And I feel like I would be much more on the um slaughterhouse floor path then um, you know, having a congregation of sorts, right.

It's like choosing your medical specialty. It's like do you want to be hanging around cows hanging upside down or just want to do bar mitzvas for suburban brass rightly? And and this slaughterhouse equipment, he's not doublings like non kosher slaughter house equipment as well, right, like they're they're not doing all the same process with meat that's also going to the local grocery store that's non kosher. No, you can't. You cannot have any non kosher animals in

that facility at all. Although, to be fair, the one that I wrote about in my book the Slaughterhouse, another time I went there and there was a pig hanging on the side and the guy's like, you didn't see that. What was going on with that? I don't know, just you know, he had the walk in freezer space and someone with a pig wanted to put it there, and so he's like, wow, And I think that. I think

that happens a lot. Like let's say you slice the honestly, you slice, the animal doesn't die right away, like I'm sure sometimes they're out, you know, sl sliced lfe again. Um, that's why a lot of there's so many gradations of how strict you are, and there's a lot of fudging, which is why some very religious people will not eat even something stamped kosher, depending who stamped it, they might not eat it because they don't trust that person or

this person. Yeah, exactly, your your your knife man. Would he also then be more uh, sought after to perform a bress good? Good question. It's like I did a couple of thousand kosher beef. Different technique, also different knife size, machete down. Uh. You got into buying hole animals? Yes, um, not live but actually that same slaughterhouse they had um they would do lamb or sheep and go, And so I picked up a whole animal from them several times.

That was while I was in medical school studying anatomy. But were you doing it just because we like, why did you know what was going to tie into your career? No? I mean I was just curious. I guess I'm still not sure it has tied into my career. I guess just right writing made it tied into my career. Coming on podcasts like this made it tie in. But I think I was just curious. I mean I was, I

was sort of fascinated. So once I started dissecting the human in anatomy lab in medical school, like on the first day of medical school, we start the process in this class called anatomy lab. You meet your cadaver and start dissecting. They're they're laying face down on the metal gurney and you start with learning the superficial muscles of the back, like the lats or latismus, Dorsey and others. So um, but that first day for me, it was very eye opening. It was really revelatory in some ways.

I just absolutely loved it. And actually there's a triangle roast. Yeah. Well, so I didn't know too much about different kinds of cuts yet, but I did decide on that first day to donate my own body to that same process, like to donate it to a medical school to be dissected by medical students, just because I was super fascinated with the process. Does every med student cut into a person nowadays? Less? So,

there's actually some really very high quality virtual dissection programs. Um, there's actually this digital It's the size of a table, the size of a metal gurney lying in front of you. It's called the anatomage and uh, you literally can go through it, um to an amazing degree that I before I saw that, I thought that virtual could be no substitute. But after I saw that, honestly not sure. But I'm still very glad I got to cut open an actual person.

What's that feel like? Man? Does it feel like like sinful, Like what's that feel like? I think it's the most surprising thing was how quickly everyone got used to it. I think everyone was super worried when they were going in like holy crap, day one, like here's a dead body, now start cutting it apart, and like I think within a week everyone it was just like another day at the office. Honestly, which is a sign? Who was your person? Some overweight old man? That's what I was gonna ask.

There's no way for you to get any like history of that, like getting curious about that person and figuring out who they were and what their deal was. No, I mean they're I mean to be graphic. Their face is sort of smushed um and just because they're laying face down on the kourney um and so their face is sort of like stuck in that smushed uh. Not that seeing them would tell you who it is, but

not fresh. So they're embombed. So they drain the blood out not too dissimilar from kosher meat, and then put a big hose into the big veins of the neck or upper chest and running you know, formaldehyde or whatever the latest version of formaldehyde is. So the body is generally preserved and smells like preservative, and you don't know where they came from, how they died. No, I mean you can tell, like you can see things. You can see medical evidence of disease. You know, Like my guy

had bad coronary artery disease. Like literally the coronary arteries were like crunchy, you could crunch them with your hand, like calcification, which goes along with CORNERI just sort of spongy soft tissue like like muscle. Let's say, um, but things get calcified as the age, especially when you have hardening of the artery. The hardening is actually calcium being deposited. He also had like he was clearly a smoker based on the um the color of his lungs, which were

like ash gray. Uh. And also they looked like emphysema. Emphysema lungs look like extra bubbly, kind of extra big and extra bubbly. Um, So he's a smoker, which probably contributed as coronary artery disease. And I don't know what he died of specifically, Like you could look at the heart and actually see evidence of a heart attack. You know, part of the heart muscle would die and turn another color. Depending on how long you live after the heart attack,

it goes through color changes. You know, if you die right away, it would be stuck in that initial color, but if you live another ivors, it continues to remodel and scar, so you can't tell. I mean that's what pathologists do when they do an autopsy to find the cause of death. You know, you could cut open the lung arteries and find a huge clot in there and maybe, oh, they died of a pulmonary embolism. Did you check see

were you able to check his stomach contents? I don't think we opened the No, we didn't open the g I tract. I've done that on animals many times now. Having no background in this um, it doesn't seem like this guy fits the profile somebody who normally donates their body. I would imagine those folks are like quite fit and proud of what they got going on, not not an overweight I think you're reading the let's let's hear right, like you want to show people donate their bodies. The body.

I would imagine that's more likely where they're gonna remember appreciate it. Yeah, So what what is like the normal profile of the cadaver. Yeah. Don't you think the vein though, would want to keep it all to themselves. I think they'd want rooting around in there. I really let myself go. I think I'm gonna update my I'm gonna update my body donors ship on the back of my driver's license because I'm just not looking at my best. Thankfully we have someone here you can tell me if I'm right

or wrong. So what's like the normal profile? I mean, all the bodies and it was probably about thirty bodies in that room, and they were all elderly, um so not not in the prime of life. I mean, I can't say any looked great, but I didn't really look at them. None of them caught your eye. I wasn't. I mean they all smelled terrible and look of course sort of gray, but definitely like my cadaver was very obedes. Like the layer of blubber on his back was you know,

to three inches at least. And that made me think, while thinking I want to donate my body to this process, like I should really stay fit, um so that the medical students who are picking me up apart my carcass don't have to fat it's just you get grease spots all over her, the scrubs you're wearing his little bits fat ale over your gloves and on your scalpel and scissors and stuff. It's slippery, it's hard to you know,

grab stuff. It really gets in the way. Here's something my I learned not too long ago, which is something I like to think about during these winter driving conditions, is that there's mobile cadaver labs. Did you know that?

I don't know what that means. So they well like different facilities, right, they don't have the space two offer like full oh medical learning, they're right, And so there's companies that are mobile they like the book mobile, but with dead bodies exactly brody and occasionally like during like our ultra horrid, right horrible for the children, and you're like, oh,

there's a set my laying over on its side. How like what level of dissection did you go to where you like peel them back all the skin and the muscle and get into the bone and like a breaking things down or yes, um, you know the first day was just the superficial muscles of the back, then the deeper muscles of the back um, and then maybe we turned them over and started doing you know, you do all the muscles first, you do the extremities. Um. The

forearm is particularly interesting. You see all the muscles and the tendons, how they go down into the hand, and you really, you know, look like a puppet from that perspective of string puppet um. And then you know the head and the neck. We um we ended up. I think we saw the head down the middle to look at the cross section. And we also used a circular saw to like cut down each side of the chest and sort of lift the chest off like a plate, like a big plate to expose the lungs and heart. Um,

regular circular saw. Yeah, just know what kind? I'm not even sure do you mean like that? You'd get it a hardware store. It looked pretty similar. It didn't say like Drama on it, but it did look similar and probably was a knockoff brand of that. Where do they drain the blood from on a could ever? Like into I think it's probably just the veins of the neck, the internal jugular or the subclavian, which are too um, the two big veins that joined together to make the

superior vena cava. The superior vena cava is sort of deeper in the chest, so not as accessible, but the internal jugular is very easily accessible in the subclavian as well. We often put large i vs. Called central lines in those veins because they're pretty accessible. In the phemeral also kind of right there in the ingland O crease, you know where your leg meets your torso is another big vein drain from or get access to with a big ivy. You do what I wanted to ask you about. I

didn't listen to you. You have to go on Fresh Air? I did. Was it Terry girls? So you have to settle for Dave Davis. It was Terry not knocking them, not not no, but my career to go. My career goals to go on Fresh Air. But I want to have the Terry girls. I know. I got very lucky. I didn't get to go into the studio even though she's in Philly. Then I live in West Philly. But the remote they're doing it remote. Yeah, just I never

listened to it. We talked about, you know, anatomy and food quite a bit about different my experience of dissecting at Caldaver. Huh, maybe you could go on Fresh air and talk about dejah pooh pitch that just my career goal. Man. Um, talk about eating liver or like you point out that you can eat everything on a person except the teeth and the bones. Yeah, I mean they'll you know, if you try to bite them. Sorry sorry, not a person. I mean you could that do that too. It's like

it's in imoral. But the nature is a creature is edible, barring the what well, I mean, anything that's gonna break your tooth or stabby in the esophagus when you try to swallow it. Um, that's the limiting factor. I mean, you can make a bone broth still, you could boil it, make the broth, you know, soften it. I mean some bones, as you know, are soft enough to just eat. Bigger

bones not so much. I mean everything everything else or as what we call what we would call soft tissue is just that it's soft, like you can chew it up and swallow it. It might not be great, I mean, as long as it's not overtly toxic. Um. You know, I wouldn't eat like lungs filled with tuberculosis or something like that. But but yeah, everything's edible. I mean and when you when you look around the cuisines around the world and what body parts they have cooked. I mean

people cook absolutely everything. This boy, it's not like a goofy question, but like, what is how different is meat like muscle from liver? Say? Very different? I mean in compass a shie, it's different looking at it. It's different on the microscopic level. It's different in terms of what it's made of. I mean, the muscle fibers that comprise most of meat are just you know, protein laid out in that linear arrangement to contract and create force. And the liver is kind of just like a bunch of

cells and veins and arteries and bile ducts. So it's pretty different. Tastes different too. Oh yeah, uh, but you enjoy eating it? Yeah. I never liked it as a kid, so just you know, I grew up with my family eat ate a lot of chopped liver on every holiday, and I thought it was absolutely gross. And also I

never like meat. I never thought beyond that that it's gross and I don't want And I never thought, oh, this is a liver that came from the abdomen of an animal, and I have a very similar organ in my abdomen, and how how interesting I want to learn more like chopped liver on toast or on crackers or just spoon straight, which is totally you know, acceptable, and I do that too. So now now I learned to like it through through medical school learning all about the liver.

I mean, you just learned so much about the liver. I've probably forgotten more about the liver than I know right now wherever we'll know. And and that got me fascinated that, oh, this, you know, this muck that my family likes to spread on crackers, there is the same incredible organ that lives inside of us and inside of animals and does a million and one even more than other organs. The liver does a million and one things

to keep us healthy from moment to moment. And and then that becomes liver or becomes something edible, or you're eating the exact same thing that that thing is in life. And so that realization got me interested, and then I learned to like it just by trying it and trying

it again. People point out that what people who don't like liver or who think you shouldn't eat liver will point out, why would you eat a thing whose job it is to filter impurities out of your body, you know, which is a great question, right, Well, so it's not totally accurate. I mean, the liver does metabolize a lot of toxins, so for instance, drinking alcohol or taking two high dose as a tylan all, you know, things that toxins that come from the outside that we ingest. The

liver is responsible for detoxifying that. And the liver can be injured in the process of detoxifying it. That's why it is injured, let's say in the tilean all overdose, because it's the one detoxifying it and all those sort of radicals that are produced injure it. But that doesn't mean that that liver has that toxin in it, and if you eat it, you will be you know, you will be poisoned. Um And even the liver processes toxins that we ourselves make, like we turn over all the

protein in our body constantly. There's a constant turnover, and when you break down protein, you create ammonia. It's just a natural byproduct because of proteins, the the molecule with nitrogen in it. Right, Carbs and fat do not have nitrogen, but protein is the nitrogen containing molecule that were mainly made of and so by breaking that down you end up with ammonia, which injures your liver, injures your brain, can kill you if it gets too high. And so

it's the liver's job to detoxify that. Um, the liver can be injured by it as well, because it's the one that's doing the detoxification. But that does not mean that eating it will poison you. I mean that being said, some things are also stored in the liver, which I think that's the that's the question, is like some heavy metals and other things can be stored in the liver, and so you might not want to eat those. Why

why why would it be that? Like you shoot a yearling white tail and the livers like super mild, not real strong flavors taste good, But then you shoot a six year old buck and the flavor is just way stronger and not as pleasant. Is it just stuff building up over years? Because you said, you know, it's it's detoxifying in some capacity. So are there things that are building up in the liver that cause it to taste much different? That's a great question. I do I do

think that is true. You know, older animals, the liver's heart like um stronger in flavor and sometimes tougher in texture. And I don't know why exactly that is. It could also be a normal part of aging, like muscle also becomes more tough as you age due to things like collage and cross linking and other things, so it could be part of the normal aging process of Also knows like chicken livers are much softer and almost like drippy.

If you put a bunch of chicken livers on a skewer, they're almost like dripping off of it as where like a even a young calves liver is not that drippy, which is more solid. I'm not totally sure why that is. What about eating kidneys, I think they're good. I just gotta snip off that little triangle where the renal artery and renal vein to the organ. But people say, when you eat kidneys, you're eating piss. I don't think that's true.

Well it's not true. I mean the similar to the liver, as we discussed, you know, the your the kidneys make urine. They get blood through the renal artery, extract things into the urine, and then whatever's left overflows back out to the systemic circulation through the renal vein. There's not much

storage for urine in the kidney. It's not like the bladders up there in the kidney, right, there's just a few little beginnings of what will coalescent to the eurotor, which is the tube that brings urine from the kidney to the bladder. So there's very minimal space for urine. It doesn't really sit in the liver, sort of drains out immediately, y yes, sorry, in the kidney and whatever is left probably when you take it out of the animal.

Now that the the urtor is like severed, when you take it out of the animal, whatever little bit is in there probably drips out immediately. Have you yourself or did you ever encounter anybody who had eaten a fetus? Um? No, but I am curious about that. I know there's a Filipino dish called bullute, and and I understand some of the plains Indians particularly liked what was the fetus? What was the fetus from that? You ate? Blue? Is you're

eating a um embryonic duck? Oh? The Chinese have a thing that with chicken and they the I like if if the if the egg would normally hatch at twenty seven days, you're getting you know, my numbers are off.

Let's say that egg would hatch a days. You know, there's fifteen day ballue, there's twenty day ballue, and you're when you're eating it, you got you could even be so late in the development that you're And this is a popular dish in the Philippines, and they also kind of like to serve it to outsiders to make them squirm a little bit. So you're always getting presented with with embryonic ducks and you'll be eating it and there's like little kind of like you know, there's like bone

and starting to solidify inside there. I know I didn't enjoy it, But you never encounter anybody who was eating the fet is from a mammal um. No, I never did. I did actually remember in Iceland gathered some wild goose eggs and boiled them and there were tiny little birds inside that we just crunched on through. Um. But I have read that some of the planes bison hunting Native Americans eight fetus um. I got to think of it as superveal. It must be delicious. Yeah, there was a

few dishes I've stumbled into and reading about that. The thought we're interesting is one, uh, from calves getting the curdled mother's milk from the stomachs of calves that are nursing. Is that the same as marrow gut? I don't know, No. From the chuck wagon. Um, there is like there's a dish I think Mexican dish called trepas de lech, which is intestine with partially digested milk in it from from youngsters,

from youngsters. Yeah, And there's also in there's this like the chuck wagons, which used to follow the cowboys around Texas. I guess they used to cook for them. And there was a dish called Son of a Bitch stew that supposedly had this ingredient called marrow gut, which is a similar It looked like marrow I gather because it was sort of a tube filled with this partially digested milk. So I'm on the sort of researching this to figure

out what it is. Some people say it's a little tube that connected the third stomach to the fourth stomach, but then in the same breath they'll say it's the same as traps lech. And if you ever look up a YouTube video someone cooking trapast to let. It is not a little tube, it's a really long, clearly intestine,

so I'm not totally sure what that is. We had somebody who wrote in um to the podcast that they had taken the fetus from a cow elk that they had killed in the winter, and they described it as though they were they had air in their mouth when they were eating it. It was so tender and like almost non existent that they they were just chewing on air. Incredible. I guess that. I think fetuses and feces might be

the last frontier for anatomical cuisine. Talk about why you can't eat long in America or like why you can't sell why it's illegal to sell long in America, But they're eating it all over the not all over the world. Let me let's start this way. Who eats law um? Everyone but the US? Now. I think it's also legal in Canada actually, but so common things. You'll find it in our in hagus. It's an ingredient in haggis from Scotland, which is one of the UK's biggest culinary exports besides

Scotch whiskey. Um, which is why they want to overturn the law. In the US, there's like because when they send their hags over here, they have through a long free hags. Correct. So they the US government said either submit a scientific brief that shows with rigorous studies that lungs are not dangerous to ingest, or create a haggis

recipe that does not contain lungs. And so obviously they went with the ladder since it's much cheaper to do that and sub oh yeah, big time, especially like to Canada. In the US there's a big you know, descendant of Scottish immigrant population. I'm not they think they'd be super

interested in haggess. I guess I'm not so sure. But well, the only time I've had it was at a abby Burns festival in the US and they had a hagas and it wasn't even in the stomach really, it was in like a bag of some sort and no lungs in it. Probably what's the long substitute? Then, that's a good question that might be proprietary, though I'm not totally sure what they do. I guess I've heard that lungs

provide this traditional this desired crumbly texture. To guess that people swear By, And there's somebody in the Hagas marketing world sitting over there going, if we can only overturn this law in the US, sales are gonna explode, right dollar bills in his eyes that demands. That's what they think. I've like, we've all pulled a bunch of lungs out of various big game animals, and it's hard for me to imagine, like what would happen to it when you

cook it? Like if you took a chunk of a deer lung the size of like a piece of pie and threw it in a frying pan, Like I can feel that question, what would happen? I'll tell you. So when I was in so you know, mof Alon, Okay, when MO was working on all the board, like working on all the board ain stuff, traveling for that show their eyes wherever the hell and he was somewhere and maybe in North Africa, I can't remember. It was working

on no reservations. Was that the first one parts of no Yes, No reservations was before and they're eating all kind of lamb lung wherever he was. So then I was with Mo when we were in New Zealand. We shot a wild wild lamb, and he was real we made a big organ scramble and he was real indo emphatic about putting dicing up the lung and putting it in there. It's it's frothy, you had brain. There's no cheer, yeah,

but there's no like chew to it or anything. It's like it's like a I don't, I haven't on the way that I enjoy it. You have to think about what it's made of, right, like it it had, it holds oxygen right, And so I was talking to yeah, when he shot his first book, he said that his you know, dad did all the butchering. He didn't want anyone to touch it and needed to be butchered the

proper way with everything preserved because they eat everything. And he was actually saying that there's among dish that includes a whole bunch of oh fall together and the lung. You know, it's kind of like, if I remember correctly, it's almost like a little bit foamy or a little bit slimy to foolish thinking like chocolate mouse when I like seawee or head in my hands. But then cooking the water out would be well, I don't know, I'm

sure Jonathan can speak to that. I mean it is the organ is more air than flesh, which makes it a little weird in texture. But I guess I've just thrown a deer lung in the pott. It does firm up a little bit, and you can't take a bite of it. I wouldn't. I mean I did that with at any seasoning or anything, just to see what it

would the texture would be like. And you can, you know, just like any protein, it sort of firms up when you boil it um and so they did get some firmness to it and you could cut slices out of it un seasoned. What did it tastes like? Like? Not much? Just yeah, not much. I mean I had like a little bit of a organy, unpleasant taste to it. I would say I have had delicious lungs though. Um. One dish I had in Israel actually at a Bulgarian restaurant.

It was called Lungs and Juice, and it was basically a tomato juice soup with lungs and they were, yeah, kind of cubed up and you could see I was sort of dissecting. You could see airways and how they branch and the lung had broken down into what we'd

call lobules. You know, lung is broken down into lobes and those are broken down further into lobules, and just like you know, collagen holds the whole thing together like it does everybody parts when you boil it, the college and turns to gelatine and the thing kind of falls apart.

But that was actually delicious. So when like, what was the timeline on the on you not being able to sell the stuff in the US, right, so began in nineteen sixty nine, Uh, the U. S d A decided to determine kind of once and for all, this is the language in the Federal Code, you know, determine if lungs are fit for human consumption or not. And who

pushed for this or why is unclear. I did a bunch of research to the National Archives, and it's not clear who or why they pushed for it, but they set up a study where U. S d A pathologists, uh like, in the late sixties started examining livestock lungs specifically from I forget if those calves or or cattle or what age, but um, they took about a hundred or so lungs and started cutting open all the airways kind of all the way down, you know, with a scissor,

the same way you would look through lungs. Let's say, as I mentioned, to look for a clot in the branching pulmonary arteries, you can do the same with the airways. So you just cut down the track and then cut down the bronchi and cut down the bronchials and all

the way. And they sort of sampled from these deep for deeper airways and found things that alarmed them specifically like uh, pollen that the animal had inhaled dust, fungal spores, and room and contents, so stomach contents had you know, come up the esophagus and down into the lungs, maybe

after death, maybe before death. And so because they were in such deep airways, you know, I feel like the USDA is always making decisions on what's practical and what's efficient, um And so they decided that when they do a post mortem examination of an animal and look at the lungs,

they're not cutting down into the deep airways. And a significant proportion of these hundred or so animals had these quote contaminants in their deep airways, and so for the sake of efficiency and practicality is that, well, we're not gonna examine every long specimen that deeply, and since a large proportion of them have these quote contaminants, will just ban it completely from you know, human consumption basically, so they declared it unfit for human consumption. That's what the

Federal Code says. But this aim declaration that there's no declaration about that about kidney, liver, and testine brain, Well they don't they're not, I guess exposed to those very specifically airborne contaminants. Right, So the lungs are exposed. You know, the atmosphere just continues on deep into our chest. It's contiguous with the atmosphere. So whatever is in the atmosphere we're getting in our lungs, including spores and pollen and dust um and our lungs do have a cleaning mechanism.

In animals and us, we have a what's called the mucociliary elevator or mucus elevator. So are lunglining constantly secretes mucus that flows and picks up all these debris, picks up pollen and spores and whatever, and sort of drags it all the way up the airways, and these these microscopic hairs called celia sort of beat in a very rhythmic pattern that moves the mucus along. The mucus gathers up, the trachea comes into our throat and we subconsciously swallow it.

So the lungs are always cleaning themselves through this mechanism. So when you kill an animal, the air born contaminants you find in their lungs at that moment would have been just what they've inhaled. And you know, I don't know the last few minutes, a few hours, because their lungs constantly cleaning itself. But at any specific moment when you kill them, there's some left in there that has not yet been cleared. Um. So then the question is like,

is that unhealthy? Well, why would that be determined to be more dangerous than for instance, when you brought Worst. When you brought Worst, it's in a casing, it's in a hog middle. Now if you went and try to find some dangerous stuff, I would go looking around in a hog's gut. Well, they might argue that, well, that gut has been totally cleaned and the inner surface, which is the mucosa has been scraped off and any remnant

of microbe that might hurt you is totally gone. Maybe they soaked it in you know what, are they soak it in lime or lie or something like that, So they'd say you can clean it out real good. Yeah, the lungs you can't clean out specifically in the much deeper airways there, there wasn't like a specific pathogen they were worried about. It was just a general this stuff's

not good for humans. Correct, It's always obviously been you know U s d A code and the Federal Safety Inspection Service, you know the code about which lungs or which organs must be discarded. You know, if you find actual disease or infection, um, you discard it. So if the lung has an abscess you know, I don't know, has assisted worms in, it has whatever evidence of anthrax something like that, obviously that's you know, you should that

should be condemned, as they say, um. But yeah, this was just they were afraid of people ingesting literally dust, pollen and fungal sports from the air. So when you found this out, what prevented you from just being from saying to yourself hmm, that's interesting. And then moving on, well, I think so I came at medical school from the like interest in, um, you know, kind of early humans and how we get everything, how we eat everything, how we make everything. So I came to medicine from that,

and then that combined into my interest in food. So I was bringing my kind of that sort of wilderness survival sort of idea with my anatomical and physiologic knowledge that I was learning in medical school, and that made me question these things, you know, I was like, oh, is that actually dangerous? Like does that make sense? I guess I'm always questioning everything. Like there's a lot of stuff that we take for granted, dogma that's been passed down.

That's true in the medical field. So much of what we do is bullshit for lack of a better term, Um, there's so much dogma. I mean in food, the dog was just off the mean. Give me a couple examples, not medicine or and food. Food Damn, give me, give

me a couple of bullshit food beliefs. Um. Well, I would say that the lungs is a great example, Like I don't believe those things are unhealthy in any way to eat and let me just say, when you when your own mucous elevators cleaning out your lungs, your subconsciously swallowing all that stuff anyway, all day, every day of our lives, we're all swallowing everything we inhale subconsciously. And it's unco good point. And it's uncooked right because it's

directly from our lungs. If you're going to cook an animals lung like, there's no way that's dangerous. I just don't believe it makes no medical sense. Another thing I questioned, like you see this said everywhere, which is that tender cuts come from muscles that the animal used less in life. That makes no anatomic sense. Is it true, because when you don't use a muscle, it atrophies like the bodies.

I think it that that statement assumes the body is inefficient and would maintain muscle it's not using or using you know, inadequately. But bodies don't do that. They maintain just the amount of muscle that they need. Um, it's not it's sort of indirectly has a point to make about which muscles have more collagen in them, but it's not that they were used less. So it's it's a little bit of semantics. But you know, I understood think about hard point, medium, rare. Heart is tender, stuffy, some

bitches working away. You got a big problem if it's not. Yeah, that's a great point. And I was sinking to um, tongues are real tender. Yeah, Well, I mean, and it's a hard work and I don't know they work. Doesn't seem like it's working away. I think people assume that, you know, muscles from the legs and the arms work a lot as opposed to like say, in a quadruped, the muscles along the spine, like the tender loin or the backstrap don't work as much because they're not upright

like us. But I do not believe that's true at all. So when just as I said, the body is constantly remodeling itself and breaking down protein and rebuilding it. If you're not using a muscle, it wastes away. Just like someone has a limb and a cast. For some months they can't use that muscle, and when they take off the cast, it looks like skeletal because all the muscles wasted away. Before we get back into the longs, what

does your tender loin do Um, I believe. So the tender loin connects, so it's the so s major muscle, and it kind of combines with the iliachis muscle, which is on the inside your iliac crest. And they go down and test your legs. So I believe it's hip flexion. They're involved in hip flexion. M hmm, that's what a DearS one is. Uh. I believe. So those are tender,

very but they're working every time he flexes his hips. Yeah, and I mean even though and so there's another way that meat scientists will say it, which is that locomotive muscles are tougher than postural muscles. So muscles like the legs that make you move are working harder than postural muscles that are maybe just doing small adjustments to your spine, let's say in a quadruped But that also doesn't make sense.

You know, when they did these the sheer force tests of all the muscles in the body, they discovered, Oh my god, the flat iron is super tender like um, which surprised everyone. Even though it's a locomotive muscle. It's involved in the the four quarter and there's some other ones in the back of the high nme quarter that they found were super tender. And none of that makes sense with the locomotive postural dichotomy doesn't make sense with the using the muscle more or less dichotomy. I have

heard that a hundred million times. Yeah, you hear it absolutely everywhere and it again. It has a point, but anatomically it makes no sense. It assumes the bodies inefficiently maintaining a muscle. It's not using or using less than it needs to. To get back to the long thing, you actually took the time to write a letter to the U. S d A to say, you boys got it all wrong on lungs right. Did they take you seriously? I haven't heard back yet, though they did acknowledge receipt

of the petition. You know you can This is the FSI, Well that's what they call it. You can you know on their website you can submit a petition by emailing this address. Um it's the f s I as the Federal Safety Inspection Service, which sort of, um, you know, creates the rules for what you're supposed to do with different body parts. I submitted this the explanation that I just gave about the mucociliary elevator, and how we're all eating this stuff anyway, and there's no evidence that it's

unhealthy in any way, especially cooked. And I submit, you know, I printed out or included a chapter from a lung physiology textbook and highlighted the part about the mucociliary elevator. So let's see, I mean, there's no there's no push this. This law makes no medical sense and it's not keeping anyone safe, but there's no great push to turn it over because no one cares about lungs, only the Haggis

lobby apparently, um even I I read. I spoke with the dean of the law school University of Pennsylvania, which is down the street from my house, and he he is a specialist in food and drug law. He never heard of this law, like, no one's ever heard of it. It's just on the books and forgotten. And it's there because of what we call regulatory inertia, like no one's pushing to overturn it. Where where do lungs, like from

a slaughterhouse, where do they end up? Like do they get used elsewhere or end up in the trash or so that's a great question actually in the law that bands lungs for human consumption. There's a stipulation that pharmaceutical companies can still get them because they harvest something from them called surfactant, which is a soap like molecule that helps the lungs not collapse when you exhale, and it's actually turned into a drug that is squirted into the

tray ch as of premature babies. Um, I've done that before. So one of the last things to develop in your body before you come out of the womb is this surfactant. Because you're not breathing the whole time you're in the womb. You're about to take your first breath. So this surfactant helps the soap like molecule, you know, half is dissolved and water half dissolves and lipids. It keeps the alveoli, the microscopic air sax open when you exhale. Otherwise they

would just collapse on themselves. And that's what happens when babies are born premature and don't have surfactant yet, they

have respiratory distress syndrome and often have trouble breathing. So you actually take this stuff that is I think there's some synthetic varieties but some are actually still harvested from from bovine lungs, and you literally, you know, like you're intibating someone put a breathing tub and you actually just squirt this stuff and you actually you roll the baby to one side, squired a little in to get into that long and then you roll them over to the

other side, squired a little more and to get into that long after they're born, after they're born, immediately after they're born. Actually, well, I guess depending on the eight you might wait to see if they have the respiratory difficulties, or depending on their age, you might just give it because they're very likely to have it if they're very premature. That was written in the law. Yeah, so I've heard a conspiracy theory that the pharmaceutical companies are behind the

law they wanted more. Yeah, how much. I don't find that there's no short I think there's no shortage of lunges. There are they synthetic alternatives? Are they used for like dog food or fertilizer or anything like that. So there's dog treats also that are you can see them in grocery stores, like lung dog treats. Yeah, like a drop Yeah, how about a long term v O two max study on these kids with the bovine lung juice shot into them. Yeah, I mean a lot of them do end up with

chronic lung issues. I mean I think the the surfactant lessens them. But does isn't you know? Perfectly curative because a lot of those kids still have trouble breathing and need a lot of support. Um, So it's probably much better than it would be if you didn't do it, though I don't know the evidence behind it. Are the specifics of the law that you can't sell long or that you can't eat long? Like can we legally eat

the lung from a deer? Yes, there's nothing about It's it's more about selling um or serving in a restaurant, which is sort of indirectly selling um. Wild game or if you slaughter your own you can absolutely eat lung. Uh, this is off lung too. Bath. Look, you might answer, you might know the answer to this question. What does all the hubbub um? Do you know about the Do you do you know much about the like non pasteurized milk craze and all that I'm aware of it. I

don't know a ton about it. Do you know what's dangerous about it? Um? Well, I know once. I mean, I feel like I was just thinking about this the other day. There's a lot of movement towards you know, raw milk and just everything raw and less process and less over you know, less oversight, less um, pasteurization, whatever, and I think, I mean, there are you know, probably nowadays we have a cleaner food supply than they did a hundred years ago, when these laws are probably more important.

But there probably will be some disease. I don't think it will be common, but you know, the risk is

very small, I think, not zero. One of the things though, is there's actually something called bovine TB where there's a kind of it's um Microbacterium bovis I believe, as opposed to the one that infects humans and I don't I don't know what it's prevalences and cow milk these days in the US, but there is a kind of that kind of tuberculous is that can and it would go to your intestines and cause kind of an intestinal TB or we'd call it a t B and too right,

it's not like in the lungs because you're not inhaling it. That was one of the you know, reasons for the processing of milk, and I'm sure there's others as well. I don't know as much about. Uh. When you why, like, do you do you really care about the long issue or is it just academic for you? Well, it's I don't care a lot. I mean, I surely I want the laws of our country to be sensible, especially when they're in the area that I know most about, which

is medicine and health. Um, they shouldn't be stupid. I feel like don't be stupid is a good philosophy for laws. But um, I mean part of it's fun. Um maybe bragging rights. If they actually overturn it, I don't know, it would be great. I put it on your resume. Have you followed c W D much a little bit? Yeah? Uh? What's your take on on the idea that that you know those those prions? Are you a prion or preon?

Say pry on that the prions. I've heard people smarter than me say pre on though, but I still like saying, okay, the prions that that caused mad cow disease. Uh scrapy uh. Jako Kreutz felt whatever all these things. What is it? Kuru kay? You are you? That's the one that was the common in Papua New Guinea when they would eat their ancestors, eat their relatives. That in an animal, those prions are apparently more prevalent in the nervous system, so

more prevalent in brain and spine. So you'll have people like guys like me whatever who maybe used to saw um little chops, little bone in chops, and people be like, oh, don't do that, because you're getting the prions all over everything. Are we? Is that all mental masturbation if you're eating the animal anyway? Well, I think I'm not an expert in this area, but I do think that the danger is very low and might be zero. Um. I mean, I guess when you're cooking it. I mean, prions can

survive thousands of degrees they can survive. Can they survive like cooking temperatures that they can survive? No. I heard they can survive the surface of the sun like that. It's like wildly Remember when some politician was making some politician made a thing against c W d UH research and he was saying, we'll just cook your meat, and someone pointed out that you have to be cooking your

meat the nine degrees, which is for several hours. I just which is which is way outside the capacity of your average any homeowner, of any homeowners oven is hitting nine degrees. Isn't gonna happen? Well, I guess I'm mistaken about that. But I mean there's a lot of people out there eating similar chops as you, And if there haven't been any cases yet, I'd say that's pretty reassuring.

So are you not worried about cw D from it from a eating from I'm not saying you're given I'm not trying to put in given medical device, but when you look at the fact that no one's gotten it from dear meat, Yeah, if you shot if you shot one and got it tested, would you just like you personally would just be like to health that I'm eating it anyway, like and I know that it has CWD this animal good question. Honestly, I would probably not eat

the nervous tissue in that case, but you eat the meat. Maybe, I guess I would have to do more research. Well, here's one for you, jumping back to our milk question. Okay, the Journal Tuberculosis Independent Study. They you know, gathered a bunch of studies from two thousand sixty seven articles eighty three studies and found a consensus of five percent uh milk would be infected with with bovine TV if it wasn't pasteurized, If it wasn't pasteurized, I guess that a

gamble you'd be willing to take, good question. I guess I'd want to know what, you know, do all of those have an infectious dose worth in them? How much you'd have to drink to get infected? And what's the you know, what's the infection rate? I mean, a bunch of humans drink salmonella and not all of them are gonna get sick. So I guess you know, it's always a percentage. Yeah, Salmonilla was a big one when I was punching in milk, like, yeah, salmonilla is the seems

to raise more hairs than bovine TV does. I spent some time with a I did a story years ago about livestock theft out of wrestling, and I got to spend much time with the stock detective in California, also an idol. But this guy in California had been tasked with breaking up these little non pasteurized milk schemes, and the way it goes is this undercover well it checked this out. So here's how they get around it. You

don't buy the milk. You buy a share of a cow, and then you get your portion of your You get your shares worth of your cow's milk because you own it. Okay. So I have a dairy cow, I sell ten shares to people and then they get one tenth of that dairy cow's output. I haven't sold them the milk. I haven't sold them the raw milk. I've sold that. I've just told them part of my cow. What they do

with their cow's milk because their business. Okay. When he was working these little schemes, um, what he started doing was finding out who are okay, who are the owners? Give me their names. I'd like to go visit with them and and see their brand, inspection papers and all their paperwork for the cow that they own, which for any idea what he was talking about, so you yeah, it was like, so you don't own the cow because you don't have anything that signifies your legal ownership of

livestock registered to the state. And that was how they got after these milk shares that's a I don't mean the stereotype, but that's that's a real hippie business. But that that's probably one of those. That's one of those areas where the left, the radical left, and the radical right come around and meet. They come around and meet like in a weird land, because like hippies are you know, like natural is good, right then on the rights, on the left you got like everything anything natural is good.

On the right, you got the garment. Can't tell me what to do. They don't want me eating raw milk, therefore I'm gonna eat it. And they come back around and they meet where hippies meet. It's like the crazy ass right wing people. That that would be like a great um You'd never be able selled as a TV show, but it would be a good book if you did ten chapters and each chapter was where crazy ass hippies and super right wingers meet up and just spend time

in those ten worlds. That's what I love about dive bars in Bozeman, like during ski season, is that you are at the bottom of the horseshoe for both sides, like especially if you go to like Stacy's or something like the the Horseshoe is very apparent. It's great. I used to go to a bar in Missoula and it was like ranchers and earth firsters, you know, And I always want to be like, do you know what the

guy down the bar does? He keeps buying around? Yeah, I gotta think about that book where I might be on something. Man, there's some good would be called the Bottom of the Horseshoe. Yeah, you gotta like Stacy's like this time of your ski season. You'll have fellas that are in like cowboy hats and chaps like real cowboys, and they'll be listen, there's no real cowboy at a bar and chaps I have the point and they'll be bellied. You might be a different kind of bar like. So

it's like, but they have had Spencer. I'd like to show you the hitching posts you got me there. They'll be bellied up next to somebody who's got like a Hemp sweatshirt and dreadlocks. And it's great. I love it. That book idea is so good you just might want to edit it out of this podcast. Man. Plus, I mean, I'm gonna piss enough people off to her, you know, its gonna sell real, Well, it's good ship. Do we cut it out, Phil or do you think me talking

about it has gotten Here's the thing. I am writing a book your helmet, Okay, just started it. I have the gun work on a book called the Bottom of the Horseshoe, and it is about where crazy ass hippies and radical right wingers meet, guns, unpasteurized milk, home school vaccines. It exists. I've I've actually read the first chapter. It's it's just says chapter one. It's great The Bottom of the horse Shoe Steven Ronella where it's the subtitles where

crazy ass hippies and radical right wingers agree. It includes chapters on firearms, um, oh, chickens, backyard chickens would be a great backyard chickens, vaccines, elk, non pasteurized milk, homeschooling. I'll think it's more. That's kind of Livingstone's whole tourism campaign. Literally, yeah, we're artists, artists and cowboys meet, yeah, or something like that.

So Dr Rice, and what's your uh now that you've become familiar over the last six years with with hunters hunters, okay, in wild game consumption, what are your um, what are your warnings? And your hot tips for people that that butcher their own stuff, eat their own stuff. Do you see our community doing ship where you're like, I would not do that from a medical professional standpoint, or where

you're like, I wonder why those people don't do that? Um, well, I guess you know, all doctors give advice based on their own levels of fear and worry and things, and I kind of don't worry too much about those things. I mean, I you know, process animals, gut hums and butcher them without gloves. I do. I mean maybe I shouldn't. I mean, when I was in India, I also ate everything street food. You know, the restaurants with more roaches had the better food. Honestly, Um, I'm just not like

nervous about those things. Maybe it should be more so, but my usually, like with milk, I kind of feel like the people who are saying it's dangerous or exaggerating, and the people who say it's going to make you live forever or exaggerating, I kind of think everyone's just exaggerating. So you don't you don't impulsively put on not impulsively, you don't in a calculated fash and put latex gloves

on one handling game. I don't. I mean, I guess sometimes when I'm trying to keep the fur and you know, tarso glands off the meat and stuff like that, sometimes I will, but not because I'm afraid of like hurting, you know, getting any contracting a disease myself. But that I'm just kind of like not not like a nervous, precautious person, pre cautious, nervous Nellie. I'm not who is Nellie nervous Nellie? There's a nervous ned both. I don't know.

I don't think I've ever heard ned. Yeah, pick your audience, though, we'll get it. So there's that one. What about if you're eating a whole bunch of bone marrow all the time? Is that super bad for you? Not that I know of. It's delicious. Why what what's the danger? I don't know. Man, when we've got into eating love, but I always felt like I was doing something bad. I'm not sure you know, I'm sure you know infectious disease or food inspection specialists

might specialist might have more to say. I've been saying eat all thee you want. I've been making a lot of duck stock lately, and I have found that the duck stock is better like the nasty or your duck carcasses look on the way in. So like basically, all I do at this point is make sure that that the end of the aggestive tract is out of there, so it's basically poop free. But there's no rinse involved

or anything like that. But there's chunks along kidneys, you know, lots of congealed blood stuff like that, and that does I mean, it doesn't smell good on the way am, But I'll roast a batch or I'll just throw it all in the pressure cooker or roast it and then put it in the pressure cooker, and it is within five minutes of basically heating that stuff it you're ready to dig in. It's awesome. You're taking You're roasting in the oven the carcasses just to put a little brown

on them. And then you're pressure cooking yours just just for the speed. For how long you're doing it half an hour, you know, because I'm trying to put a lot of liquid in there too, so and then you're siving it off and clarifying it and ship. Yeah, I'm not a big clarifying like the clarifying with the egg yolks. You don't do any now. No, I like it. Well, like the stock to look like it's gonna provide some

cloud stock. Where are you guys at in the medical world right now about eating all kind of animal fat. Things seem to be in flux. Um, I know, like, for instance, with salt. I spoke to a nutrition researcher from Canada a few weeks back, and it seems like, you know, I guess they did the largest study ever, multinational study, you know, better high quality study, better ability to compute the data than ever before, and found that basic You know, everyone agrees that super high salt is bad.

But I guess the question is where's the cut off? And the cut off this study suggested that cut off people have been giving is much too low. Like you can have more AsSalt than people have been saying and suffer no ill consequences. I do think, you know, there's a lot more coming out on saturated fat and stuff like that. I feel like the whole nutrition world is in flux, and people think doctors are a bunch of

idiots on nutrition and they're correct. Um, I think people don't what to think, and honestly, most doctors don't want to think either, So I would say, eat animal fat. Do you picture a world in the future where all of a sudden, um, someone's like, damn sugar, lots of sugar, super good for you. Like one of the things that that we right now think are bad, that you think

will always be bad. And what do you think are kind of basils when you look at it, Well, like saturated fat, cholesterol was and salt were sort of the old enemies. Um, and now it seems like sugar is more of an enemy. You know. Cholester the new and better I guess the thing is they're doing new, better and bigger studies with better methodology, better ability to compute and process the huge amounts of data, and they're finding that a lot of the old studies are not not

so great. So, you know, cholesterol, eating it does not change your cholesterol. It's eating cholesterol does not change your cholesterol. Correct, it seems with the latest studies. That's why we thought bone marrows. I don't know what. I don't even know if it has a lot, but that's why we thought bone marrow was bad. I know it has a lot

of saturated fat. I'm not totally sure about cholesterol content, but um, yeah, I mean I think I would say, if you're being truly scientific, you should never say network will never think sugar is good for you. I mean that you should never say never because you never know. I mean, you should do large studies and see what they show. But I kind of I eat saturated fat.

I don't you know. I feel like when I was a medical student advising my primary care patients, it was sort of like, eat more greens, you know, but don't fry it in anything that will make it actually taste good. I feel like they're gonna be like, what are you kidding me? Like, I'm just gonna continue eating what I was like. Um, I feel like if you tell people like, fry your vegetables and bacon fat, they'll probably eat a lot more vegetables, and I think overall that might be healthier.

Got got that's my own again, my own personal take. Every doctor has their own style, and the science is so in flux. The evidences in flux. I know you've had strictly carnivore people on this podcast before, Yeah, but I don't know that that's Yeah, it seems a little extreme.

To me, I in my long absence from the podcast, have you guys covered the the recent find of like Paleo man and their diet, like all the interesting things that popped up and a big basically like of of like actual meal making, right and this just this concurring theme that we have, that long, long running theme of um like Neanderthal, right like, now we have a better picture of the fact that Neanderthal was combining ingredients at the old time versus this carnivore belief of it was

just pure protein, animal protein, animal fat all the time or there was nothing. They're using grains and other things and making like what one might describe as a recipe right right, Like it's a we have a better picture now of that was very likely, which if you do think about it, like if you watch a small child or any other animal wander around like they're constantly try and stuff, it's hard to imagine Neanderthal was like nope,

like I'd rather starve. Yeah, I think you need to take it into larger context of activity level and what you know, just the diet overall. But I feel like a mixed diet variety is good, you know, like the the Inuit ate a super high fat diet in the past and needed it. Do they need it today? You know, where they're not expending as many calories. I guess it's a totally different setting, a totally different contexts. So context

is important for what the healthiest diet is. I got one last one for you Arctic explorers and others that would get vitamin A poisoning from eating polar bear liver. The hell does that mean? So? Um, you can overdose on the fat saw able vitamins which are A, D, E, and K. You cannot overdose on the water soluble vitamins, which are all the others, B, C and the rest. So the fat soluble I'm not totally sure why that is,

but you can't overdose on any of those. And we all are the fat soluble ones A, D, E, and K, and you can overdose on them. So you could overdose in vitamin D as well, and that could make your calcium go very high and cause a whole lot of problems and other things. But um, so yeah, you can.

You know, a lot of animals store, especially fat soluble nutrients in the liver, and the polar bear happens to store a lot of vitamin A, so you can overdose on it if I don't know how much, if you know, eat a molecule of it, If you eat a tiny little portion of polar bail level, you'll probably be fine. I'm not sure how much the lethal dose would be down might be? And why do they have so much vitamin A in their like? Do they have a vitamin A rich diet from eating all the all the marine

mammals or something. I'm I'm not totally sure, to be honest. I mean, they eat a lot of very high fat diet um as all animals in the architect do, I guess, but they so. I'm sure they get a lot of it. Uh, but I don't know why they need so much or why they store so much on their liver, to be honest. But it's the only animal I know of where there's

that vitamin overdose danger. He's not here right now, but our colleague seth h large pelagics large pelagic fish for about thirty days in a row and got mercury poisoning, or got some mercury poisoning, do you believe him? Um, his hands went numb. I'm not totally sure what was his mercury level, like memory issues too issues. His wife's hands got nome. She didn't mention it to him until he mentioned it to her, and she's like, oh my god, I've had the same problem. Did he go crazy? You

know that mad? Hatters mad? Because he was no, but he went well, a little bit crazy, he went a little bit seth. He's gonna be here for trivia if you want to talk about it, then I'm curious what his what the blood levels showed another doing that? Now he just laid off, But I had him over there night at some bitches digging back in blue fin tuna belly. So basically eating blue fin tuna fat sounds okay. I

don't know. I don't know a lot about it, but this guy's a cautious maybe in moderation, what insight can you provide on how a buck would taste different? Say you're hunting in Indiana. Peak rut is November twelve, you kill a buck on November twelve versus if you killed one on September one? Um, should those animals taste different like before the rut and during the rut? Yeah, like when when they're at like kind of a baseline of just have a very stable pattern of their hitting this

cornfield every night. They're not chasing Doe's anything like that. Versus a buck who is rutting real hard in mid November. Well, I guess, and you're talking about just taste, not tenderness of it. Yeah, tenderness, taste anything. Well, I guess there's some thought about the hormones of the rut and what they can do to meet I guess. Do do the

bucks lose weight also in the rut? Yeah? They kind of they throw caution to the wind, and they don't drink as much as they should, they don't eat as much as they should, they don't sleep as much as they should. Um. I would say it's like a stressor for them sort of because of the the activities they're participating in. Right. Well, I guess um I am also

avoiding hunters at that period, right. I guess I've heard a lot about hormones, like, you know, just sort of the rut related hormones like testosterone and such versus the stressed out, running away and dying slowly hormones like adrenaline, cord is all other ones. I guess my understanding is, I don't that it's inconsistent in terms of I guess you guys would know more than I do about that, But it's inconsistent in terms of how it affects taste

and tenderness UM. But I guess less fat, you know, intramuscular fat in particular or marbling um, contributes a lot to the quote unquote tenderness you feel in your mouth because you're biting through fat in addition of protein fibers um. So maybe losing less fat might affect the texture. Having less fat might affect the texture. I guess I'm not totally sure. I've heard meat scientists on this show and other shows talk about the role of hormones, and I

guess I'm a little confused, and it seems inconsistent. How about specific to like the testicles. I've tried to take note of this, and I've never noticed a difference in taste between like a buck in September versus November versus January. Should I notice any taste or like texture difference with those when you're eating the bark nuts? Yeah, I wouldn't

think so. I mean, there's a lot of those hormones are released into the blood stream, you know, there's not really a testosterone storage in the testicles, Unlike something like the thyroid, which has a lot of thyroid hormone stored in it ready to be released. The testicles just sort of released testosterone into the bloodstream. Um so I don't think that would you know, the hormone shouldn't. Should affect them the same it affects any other tissue that's being

perfused by the testosterone containing blood. Testosterone is made in your testicle, is it? It is sperm is too? I get. Can can we speak about a bit about thyroid hormone? And then uh, what hormones you can and can't technically consume and why not? And then also like can you in the cooking process, like what what does that turn?

I mean, do you like kill hormones when you cook meat? So? Sure, So there's this condition called hamburger thyroid toxicosis where you get dangerous or toxic dose of thyroid hormone in your hamburger. And there's some medical literature I read read a bunch of studies, Like in the eighties, I think it was in like Minnesota, Iowa, South Dakota area, there was a few slaughterhouses that were not dissecting the neck properly of the cows there slaughtering, and some thyroid tissue was ending

up in the ground meat. And so if some of that ends up in the middle of the burger where you're cooking, at last, some of the thyroid hormone can survive intact to be swallowed by you. And unlike many horr armones, you can eat thyroid hormone. You know, many are broken down either in your intestines or by your liver before they get anywhere. But thyroid you can eat and it can arrive into your bloodstream intact and you

know active, which is why um. You know, hormone replacement like thyroid replacement or pills, you can take them by mouth. And some people even take desiccated cow thyroid, which is literally dried cow's thyroid, and that provides you with the T three and T four um that you need to

replace your underactive thyroid. So these so there was like an outbreak of thyroid, you know, high severe hyper thyroid ism to the point where makes your heart raise, makes you sweat, um, it makes you feel terrible horrible diarrhea and things like that. UM. And so that condition hamburger thyroid thyrotoxicosis is um you know, sort of well known, and it's actually also very common in dog chew toys because the gullet or the trait chea is often dried

and given the dogs. It's just sort of toy and there's less oversight of the butchering process that goes to dog toys. Just like lungs, you know they're too dangerous for humans, but let the dogs eat them. So these two toys, there's actually often every few years like an outbreak of dogs getting hyper thyroidism. Well, how many hunters got to be grinding up a deer's thyroid? Probably a lot. I mean, but I butcher two deer earlier this week. Actually someone gave them to me and I was really

looking in the neck. I could not find the thyroid. I don't know if it's very small or what. I'm not sure, but maybe it's so small, or maybe just people cook it's not as bad as with beef. Maybe Spencer makes this raw deer dish that we've all eaten before.

Are you are you being careful because maybe like I had the sweats after eating that would not say being careful in trying to not have neck meat in her now tiger meats real heavy on the Yeah, there's also like you know, certain species hormones can be active in the human while others are not. So it could be that dear thyroid hormone is not active in humans as cow is. I do not know. If so, you could be eating you could get a cow's hormones and then they run in your body and act on your body

and you're acting. That would be like a great would be like a great defense. If testosterone would I like start like growing hair out of my face if I was eating like buck nuts during the rut or like sashimi buck nutsa's testosterone digests right, correct, It's not not digest in the gut, but is processed in the liver

and actually mostly turned to estrogen made. Which is why people when people say, like I was at a testical cooking contest in Serbia and all the men super drunk or like yeah, we're you know, getting viril or whatever, you know, it's actually yeah, it's actually they're getting loaded with estrogen probably. But the other thing is, you know, if you've ever seen like commercial testosterone preparations, it's usually

like a foam or an injection. It's rarely pills UM and the pharmaceutical companies trying to you know, they take the testosterone molecule and try to add on little molecular branches to it to try to make the liver not act on it as much. And there is one called methyl testosterone that doesn't get broken down the liver, but it severely injures your liver, so it's no good. Um. But that's that's one of the holy grails. You know, if you could find an orally active and safe testosterone preparation,

that would be a big hit. UM. So estrogen and progesterone you can eat and get into your body right the pill. It's a pill because it arises into your bloodstream. Active testosterone really mostly comes in foams, transdermal and injections. For that reason. Cortisol is active, you could take it by mouth. Insulin is not, you know, you have to inject it. But pig insulin used to you know, pig and cow insulin used to be the treatment for diabetes

type one. UM, but it would have to be injected obviously, And now we have bacteria in vats churning out true human insulince, so we don't need to extract it from Pacreas of animals anymore? Man? Yeah? Uh think that Spencer? Do you think the long thing will get changed? That's what I'm wondering, Like in your lifetime, are folks going to be sailing lungs? Well, if we start a petition, do you get money from the hagas industry? I have written to them saying I want to join forces, not

expecting any not expecting any communeration. But who do you right when you want to get ahold of hagues? People? So I've spoken to to. One is the former kind of the U s d A secretary version in the UK, who I spoke to on the phone, and another guy just by email with one of his like secretaries who answers the email. I think he's might have been acting at that time in a similar capacity. But every time they come to the US they try to convince the U s d A to change the rule. I guess

at this point they've just given up. They're selling the lung free haggas. I love it that there's someone out there that you could call and be like, hey, I want to talk to about this long deal in the US, and they're like, oh, don't even get me started right, like someone that lives that problem. Yeah he was. He was in that tone. He was pissed about it. You know, he's like, well, the US gets upset when we know when we limit their food and drink exports or when

we put extra rules on it. So why should they do that? And there's no evidence. And we've been eating this for generations in the UK, and we exported to many other countries. No one's ever reported a problem. You know how you need on your side the bottom of the horseshoe. Those folks are loudy extremists. Oh yeah. You get a bunch of hippies, a bunch of crazy right wingers, and you say, like say to the hippies, like, listen, it's all natural, man, it's as long as it's natural.

And you go to the and you go to the other room. You'd like the government over each bro, who's the government telling you what to eat? Nothing bad has ever happened by putting radicals, by giving him a lot of power. Well no, I got him two separate rooms. Okay. He goes into the one room and brings says like, why why is the garment? Tell us about to eat? Man? We should eat more of this. If they're saying not to you go to the hippies, it's you switch your hat.

It's all natural. Yeah, and mentioned the pharmaceutic of companies that both sides and you get this problem, takeing care of and then the hagues people will pay all the money. I'm not right. There is. There's usually some green. It's usually lungs, heart and liver, ground up stuff into the stomach and also mixed with um some kind of green sounds lish. Oh, we can't forget to talk about an enemy eats. Yes, well that's the last thing I was gonna do, is letting plug his stuff. Yes, talk about

anatomy eats. Um. So, Anatomy Eats is kind of a dinner series that I started with one particular chef that I now worked with several different chefs, where we sort of one chef jealous when you did that. No, it was, I mean he's moved on to other things as well, but he I mean we're still sort of working together. We did a dinner about a year ago in Philly, so he I had heard he's a friend who's also

chef and Philly. He had done a heart uh course at the Philly Free Public Library which has this great culinary space where they do um classes and cookbook authors come through and do sessions there as well on their you know, publicity tours. And so he was telling me how he did a course on the heart, and I was saying, oh, did you point out the valves and the coronary arteries and the different ventricles and atria, And he said, no, why don't you come do that next time?

And so so we did. We ended up doing a dinner at a series of dinners at the library, did a cardiovascular system dinner where we served we served three species of heart cooked in three different ways. We served some blood sausage and blood cookies, which are sort of like whipped like meringue. Blood has a similar albumen profile to egg whites. You can kind of whip it, though it doesn't maintain its form as well, but it does to some extent. And bone marrow of course, where all

the blood cells come from. Then we did a digestive system dinner where we did we serve tongue, and I talked about how digestion starts in the mouth. We served liver like a liver sausage with intestinal casing, and tripe and then finally we did a muscular skeletal dinner where we served like a tendon soup or now puffed tendon where it's sort of cooked and then thrown in hot oil and puffs up. Um, a bone broth soup, and

two kinds of muscle cuts. One that was sort of you know, good for steaks, where you could cook it high dry heat, flip it over like a steak and eat it, versus one that required slow cooking, and we talked about connective tissue and things like that. And the steak cut was the skirt steak, which is of course the diaphragm, the main breathing muscle. Um. So then and then since I've done, you know, for each dish, I

talked about the anatomy and physiology. I kind of talk about what's going on inside the people who are listening talk about their anatomy and how it relates to what they're eating. Gives some anecdotes from my medical practice, sometimes sort of gross ones. But you know, people who are coming to this dinner, you know, it's self selecting for

people who are going to be okay with that. And um, so since then I don't didn't a dinner in d C, did a dinner in um Oxford, Mississippi with two great chefs, and did a dinner at a fourth dinner in Philly. Um. Yeah, so it's kind of exploring your own anatomy, understand ending how your own body works through eating oh fual and internal organs. You charge for that, Yes, it tends to be a little fancy. The one in d C was a Halloween theme. I was right around the hot time

of Halloween and they did a drink pairings with each dish. Um. But the Halloween theme was fun because we got to talk about like mummies and how making a mummy from human flesh is basically the same as making charcuterie, just longer time spam. That's awesome. So how do people find out if they want to go to an anatomy Eats. You guys got a website, Yeah, anatomy eats dot com, anatomy eats at anatomy Eats on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok. Yeah.

I don't know about little dances about it? Should there is there a special room in the back where you get to eat some lung, Like secretly, we did think about doing like an underground lung dinner, Like maybe people could buy shares in the lungs and sell. Um, yeah, we've thought about underground lung dinners and things like that, but yeah, well you could probably do it where like if people are I talked to a game ward and about this, I'm definitely not you know, like a proponent

of it. But it's like if you attend one of these dinners, you're paying for let's say, like the other dishes, but like the lung could be potentially served in a way whereby like you, I think people do that, but you're getting a little cute that's kind of like a little cute. It's kind of like the da you're getting like oh no, no, no no, no, I didn't sell them

that parted. Yeah, but when they walk in. There was businesses in New York City that we're doing that with marijuana that you could get it delivered to you, but you'd pay them like a hunter Bucks, right, um, and they would bring you like a candy bar, and then for free they would give you, you know, like a bryl exactly, a little baggy. Tell people about your books. Yeah, So my my first book, The Unseen Body, came out

about a year ago. Um, and it's kind of exploration of the human body, um, tying tying it into my training as a medical student, my medical career, uh, my interest in food. Some of these Anatomy Eats topics show up in there as well, like the lungs and how I came to like liver, a lot of travel as well. Great story of me getting horrible diarrhe in India, which should be a bathroom scene in every memoir, I think, um, and uh, yeah, that's how we got on fresh airbitary growth.

Very grateful for that. And um, my next book I think will be along the lines of Anatomy Eats, probably just sort of an exploration of anatomy through food that's eaten and prepared in different ways all over the world, kind of I imagine the table of contents will look like a medical textbook, similarly like Cardiovascular dinner digest sorry, cardiovascular system digestives, the endocrine system, reproductive system, and then just sort of an exploration of all the different body

parts and how they are cooked throughout the world. And your books are on Amazon obviously, books on Amazon. Dr Jonathan Riceman, author of hit the title Again The Unseen Body that came out about a year ago. Yeah, it was kind of. Actually one of my favorite books of all time, which I've heard you talked about two is Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez and I My idea of writing the book was to do an Arctic Dreams where it's an exploration of not the Arctic but the human body.

So that's what I that's what I tried to do. I tried to emulate Barry Lopez, one of my favorite writers. Yeah, he's great man, a body man. On the other days, I had recommended it to him and he sent me about how blown away was by his passage on Polar Bears, which is astounding. So good. All right, thanks coming on the show, Maan, you're gonna stick around for trivia? Yes? Are you canna throw up a bone? Yes? M hmm. It seems unnecessary. I think he's going to do really well.

If you have doctor in front of your name, you shouldn't get a get a bone thrown to you. Your whole life's been a bone thrown to you. Come on, what kind of bone are you throw You'd love it if you had doctor in front of your name. Dr Steve, question to me, question three? Only detail I'll give you stay two for trivia, where I beat Dr Jonathan Riceman soundly despite the bone and Brody. I thought a good joke about Brody and I was making my kids breakfast

this morning. Did they think it was funny? Well, no, because you're doing pretty good on the scoreboard, you know, like that turn of the reigning champion. I was think about how you're the waning champion. Listen. It's we got all year to square things up. Man, I'm not waiting champion. That's so funny. Thanks. Yeah,