Ep. 330: Killing the King’s Deer

Is I was driving my boy to school and I saw a woman doing her makeup at the stoplight. Man, But listen, I always root. That's I always root for that woman, all right, because she's got a lot of stuff she's got to do. She's like trying to get somewhere. I don't know. Like if I see a person with a little white, yappy dog on their lap, I root against him. It's like just rut against him. If I see a woman doing her makeup at the stop I'm rude. I'm like, yeah, isn't it the same kind of woman

with a little yappy dog? Woman just like I just feel for I'm like, man's probably whatever she's got to get somewhere and didn't have time living the American dream. I don't know. I just was like kind of wanted to give her a but that she would have taken it the wrong way. If I had given her a fist pump, she'd been like, she would have given me the finger. Yeah, she's working on her makeup because she was out training her bird dogs earlier dog I said,

a little one of those little white yappy dogs. You missed it, count I was on the same page. I think we might be anti makeup slightly. Any strong feelings from makeup either way, I'm just saying I just wind up rooting for him, like like, hey, I hope you get there in time. You know what's fascinating about your head to an interview out of the products industry, is that sperm whale snot that they've that's the super valuable Ambergers. Yeah, really,

that's a thing now, always has Amberger. There's a whole book about that, Amburgers, key and Belize. Yeah. I never found a lot. That's where they get. Well, you find a lot of it on the beach. It turns into like some kind of rock after a while, big big business, the stuff lamp oil right, is the base? Yeah, is this stuff is is the base for all sorts of perfumes and scents and stuff like that. Beaver caster goes into perfumes. Yeah, we've covered that thousand times. Uh. Yeah.

The oil, the sperm whale he had, like his really valuable oil is up in his open his knog and yeah, and this stuff i'd like to get in that business man. The theory is like all the capsulated like uh, squid beaks and stuff like that that they that they can't pass but can't digest either. That's what kind of forms around that stuff, the ambergriss is and then eventually they hawk that thing up and it's this floating matt and whale sound effects. I've seen it a few times. It

sounds like this. That sounds accurate, Grandpa. And then the sounds exactly like that. Ferments that stuff as it's floating in the salt water and it's and it's the it's got to spend some time in the sun outside of the whale to really get the high quality product. But seriously, yeah, in any kind of whale throwing up or any kind of whale, it's a tooth whale because he's eating squid be because eating more squid beaks. Yeah, man, that's really interesting,

super interesting. I love it. And then ladies paid to put that on their faces. Bringing it all back to the lady in the car. They test that in the rabbit's eyeballs first. Well yeah, if they're out of dogs, well yeah, uh, monkeys and dogs. That would have been a being a whaler man would have been interesting business. They take off out of the East Coast, you know all those famous whaling towns. The widows walks on the rooftops, drive not drive, sail. Think about this, you sailed down

around the tip of South America, they'd come up. They'd leave in the fall, do all that whale in the winter in the South Pacific, drop all the oil and uh baleen in Hawaii, go whale the North Pacific, get frozen, eat each other and everything, get a ride on another boat, and you come back. He'd gone two years. Can you imagine what their range Their perspective on the word comfortable. Oh yeah, like when you're on some three hour flight, like sky keeps putting his elbow on my arm. Rust,

don't go back far enough? Oh so we can stick some make up on I you win my makeup in the weekend, and so unforgiving that, ladies and gentlemen, this is ah. So here's the thing we have for years, we have for years, uh not dogged on Europe, but uh, we have for years, uh taking a very naive, cynical, no, what's the way to put it, shallow, ignorant, sure American, a very American perspective on what hunting in Europe was like.

And we have just said, like the European model, right, even though you're talking about how many countries you guys got over there, I couldn't tell you. You don't even known. But it's like it's like the States. It's like, I consider States, fifty different countries. Yeah, it's just sure you share the same language. We just don't. But but yeah,

we have fifty different sets of hunting rules. Yeah, way different methodologies and systems, and it will be exactly the same if you compared France with Denmark or Sweden or you know, they're all going to have different rules and REGs and different etiquettes, different ways of doing things, for sure. So we have and been called out on this a number of times for being like you guys sound like

a bunch of idiots when you talk about Europe. So we have committed ourselves kremsment working our asshole and I'm not gonna help on that one guy. We've committed ourselves that we're gonna give our listeners uh an extended like this is just the first installment. This is just to kick things off. We're gonna start a thing called the euro Report where we explore quickly and efficiently and give you a crash course on hunting in European countries and

they'll probably take it around the world. We're gonna start with Europe and we're just starting out robed, so we don't need show facts out of you. We just needs somebody with the accent itmac Man. Yeah, if you win, then next, but find somebody else. Now I can give you a flavor for sure. Yeah, that's what we're looking for you just right now. Flavor. This is a little

style to pack. Uh. Pete, you're here right, Pete Alonzo Okay, Uh you still play in first base, Pete, yes, okay, first basement from the New York mets Uh is joining us and he comes on. He's our sport he's our resident sports analyst. Most recently, Pete came on to explain his feelings about when Peter suggested they stopped calling the bullpen the bullpen, and and Pete analyzed that for us. Yeah,

I mean again, that's that's that's a head scratcher of me. Okay, now real quick, you got hit in the face real bad the other day. How is that? Yeah? So uh I've been playing well. I mean honestly, it was like it was like a really strong cup of coffee, Like I was super alert in awake right after. Um, but it was, I mean it was. It sucks, not gonna lie um on. My lip is split open and uh yeah yeah it's split. No stitches, but it's kind of it's healing decently. Well. Uh, it's makes it kind of

difficult to kiss my wife. But that's okay. But other than that, that's that's all good. Lay off the spicy foods for a while. So, pet how do you decide how does not you but how does it bad? Or decide whether he when he gets hit, how does he make the call whether he's going to run out and beat the picture or not? So I wanted I wanted to so bad. Um And there's a lot of there's a lot of circumstances when it comes to go out there. So the next night, okay, so the next night are

um are shortstop got hit in the mouth. We had two guys get hit in the mouth in two days, and we and he had a couple of teeth cracked, and and we and we cleared benches. No, no punches were thrown. But you gotta I mean sometimes like you have to let the other team or let the other picture know that, Hey, what you like, you're throwing up. I mean, I'm not staying it's like a deadly weapon,

but you could seriously hurt some people. Like guys are throwing and if you catch someone in the wrong place in the head, that's that's that's a broken jaw, that's a broken nose. Like it's I'm not saying it's it's like hockey by any means, but guys can get pretty seriously hurt. And well, you just won over a lot of hockey fans right there, Pete. If you've got some bullshit that happens, you gotta you gotta stand up for

your teammates in yourself. And how sure, we like these guys have really good aim and accuracy, so you kind of determine it's on purpose. I mean, you can just tell because no one just misses that bad. That's what that was my next question. So you like he's playing with he's like trying to spook you a little bit and then maybe spook you a little too much. Well, I mean, it's not more of like a spook thing. It's more it's it's kind of like an ego gameplay

mind game thing. It's like, you're gonna back off the dish. This is my zone, this is my plate um, and and pretty much there's a lot of uh, there's a lot of subtleties to the game of baseball where it's lost it inside. He's like saying, he's pretty much telling you it's like, listen, this is my zone. This is my part of the dish. You are not going to get your hands extended and take in and do anything. The worst you're gonna do if you make contact, you're

gonna break your back. Look like you idiot. So I mean that's if a picture's thrown inside, that's that's the what he's trying to convey to the hitter. But also if you get a guy hitting people, that's just lack of care. That's just like that, that's honestly just disrespect not just to you as a hitter, but you're um to the entire team, especially if you're hitting multiple guys in multiple days. Uh. And then when this happens, this isn't what we called you about, Pete, But I'm just

curious when that happens. Um. Uh. You probably know the guy though, right, Like you probably like maybe not friends with him, but you definitely know who he is. I mean, people think that it's funny in sports, like people think that like we're a bunch of strangers that like hate each other off the field like it's rivalry. But in reality, if if it's a highly contested game, whoever wins or loses,

that's great. But you we've played against each other pretty much our entire lives, whether it be in high school and college, in the minor leagues, and in various various years in professional baseball and and even in the big leagues. It's like I've gotten to know some guys I've played against.

I've become really really close as friends with certain guys I play against and and played with, so or of a community and and you would like to think that, um, through the Through those experiences together, you just kind of learned to appreciate what what each other does, and and you respect each other as an opponent as opposed to like have anything malicious or like any like fuck you to it. M hmm. If you acted like the bat slipped out of your hands and flew out there at him,

that doesn't probably go over real well doesn't. Oh No, I'm I'm probably I'm probably the catchers probably getting getting right in my face, and we're probably clear because no no one throws their bat. Got it? Okay, here's what I called. You asked about most of it. Seems like most of our listeners are uh, they chew, they dip and that was astonished the other day. So we like to cover dip a little bit. It's kind of the only area where we stray outside of our home territory.

Someone told me the other day that you guys aren't allowed to dip um like you can't uh, you can't pack a dip playing baseball anymore. Who the hell told me that? Someone told me you're not supposed to be out there spitting. So I heard that because I got my Caren, got my kids couple bags, Big League Q which went over real well. And someone told me that in the major leagues now they mix there that they're

actually is. I was wondering why they still even make Big League chew, and someone told me that that you guys mix your dip with big league chew and chew it. Okay, okay, they're they're they're half right and half wrong. So there's different rules in place. There's there are police um, not just in the big leagues, but in the minor leagues as well. In the minor leagues, if you get caught with um with dip in your locker, it's it's a fun You get fined, so you have to put it away.

But hold one second, our guests, he's from Europe, so like he knows nothing about baseball. All, well, the hells did in Europe? Dip a big thing in Europe. No, never heard of it. And you guys over where you live, everybody snorts it up their nose. We smoked fags cigarettes. Yeah, we share the same language, we're just use in a different ways different areas. Okay, Pete, sorry, But also you have different types of you have different types of tobacco. You have the dip, which is like the super fine

that you get in like a round tin can. And then also you have the chew um like typical typical chew It's it's like red man, it's like the whole leaf um. I I used to but I quit in college. What I would do, I would I would throw in a throwing a lip or throwing a wad and and have an extra large dunk and coffee and then knock out my papers. That's what I would do. But I mean, it's a nasty habit. I don't do it. I quit um. I quit chewing tobacco because I've seen a ton of

people have a ton of different health issues. Like I know some kids, like some kids like my age that have had like gum grabs and stuff like that. It's not it's not pretty stuff, very against it. But the rules in the big leagues are a lot different than minor league. It's a lot more strict. Like guys play with like pretty much big fat rocks in their mouth, like just huge wads of whatever, and then it's and

then it's it doesn't change. The only thing that you're not that's different is you're not allowed to have like a can or a pouch in your pocket while you're playing, or you're not allowed to dip while you have an interview going on, keeping it so they don't want the can. They don't want you play and showing that little tint or the pouch. But if you mix chew, so chew and dip are different for people who aren't necessarily experts. So chew it has like this like cinnamony, like honey

type tobatt leathery flavor. So if you were to mix that with gum, so a lot of people what they do uh to kind of savor it and make it last longer. And also like for people that have been doing it a long time, they actually chew chew like bubblegum. So it's some people do to hide it. They mix it with bubble gum, like they makes a big wad of chewing tobacco and then put it inside the bubble gump like they wrap it in in the ball. Yeah, what do you guys call that? You've got a good

name for it. People that dip to or whatever, they always have great names for everything. I don't know. That's just how it's like a blunt. It's like a blunt. It's like a tobacco blunt. This is a good reminder to everybody that there's a lot of people under the age of twenty in the Major League correct, Like not really, I mean it's it's it's a okay. Do you know anybody around the age of forty that's mixing bubble gum with chew? Yes? Really? Yes? Man? He pizza putting gal

in his place. Yeah. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be naming names or pointing fingers, but I mean there are people that do that. If you want a big wad, like if you want to have like a like pretty much like a rock size, like a nice skipping rock size, like water tobacco, you mix it with the gum and then you chew it pretty much all game. And if you're not getting any hits or if the team's not doing well, you you get a new wad you and

then you start you start over, change your luck. Do they use Big League Q though, I mean we are Hubba Bubba team, but other teams, Pete, this is were you out a game? It's actually an Honestly, I thought I had a game today, but I'm I'm I'm here. If you guys, I'm here too. If you got any more questions, Um, if you got Also, there's this thing

that the Dominicans do. It's called pick a duro. It's like they put like khalua, cinnamon, sugar, baking like baking soda, baking powder, powder, and then rum and then what they do they mix it in the tuning tobacco and then they bare they let it marinate and it's basically like

a ferment where like out under the plate. No they like I don't know where, but they stadiums and then they know and then they know on that and then that's I mean, that's honestly like like going on a on a space shuttle, like if you were to have that. I wonder if Jared Outlaw has tried that before, well

pec pizza pizza. Apparently he's anti tobacco. So I was hoping Jared Outlaws listening right now, he'd have to retort, he'd come and tell you how healthy is I mean, some people say they don't get sick from it, but I mean again, like I don't know, like but it's it's for me, it's not I'm not. I'm just I'm just telling you guys, what what people do you know? I mean, there's differently. It's like, that's why, that's that's why we're coming for you. Man, that's like a good analyst.

You're not you're trying to advance the ball, dude, You're not trying to push an agenda. Man, No exactly. I mean I don't do it. I again, like it's it's it's a nasty habit. And I've seen some guys like have some serious, serious like health issues because of it. And also like it's it's extremely sad because there's some incredible grates in our in our game of baseball that passed away from whether it be throat cancer, gum cancer,

lung cancer due to chewing tobacco. So um, it's it's sad, you know when you see guys like pass on like in their forties and fifties from it. So it's it's upsetting. But and I hope that people quit it and just for the just for their family's sake. You've been, uh, you've been getting out on the water pete fishing in the season. No, but I had a really good, really good time, like chasing after some red fish and and some snooks. So it's really good, really really good time.

And also I got my Uh, my fishing trip up on the t R C p H website. Anybody can go bid on that for a trip to to go out with me on the water. So if Steve, you can bid on it, if you if you want to come down, and that's good. But that's coming right up. I think it's the fifth of Yeah, so you've been a hall asks. If you're gonna bid on that, I might go bid on it. Pete, I'd like to go fishing with you. All right, We're gonna go, ladies and gentlemen.

That's America's baseball player, Pete Alonso. All right, thank you so much. We're gonna go talk to some stupid lawyer now, Pete, so from sounds good? Hit one real far, Pete, you got it? Alright, alright, alright folks. Now we're gonna turn it over to a conversation with our legal analyst. Uh, Dave Wilms. Dave Wilves. Uh, introduce yourself real quick and tell people what you do now, like what you do now for a living. But but talk about how you

haven't been disbarred or anything. I have not been disbarred. Yeah, thanks Steve. Putting that that's why people to know that our legal analysts like. Even though he's not being a lawyer at the moment, he's a lawyer, he's a legal analyst. That's once you're a lawyer, you're always a lawyer. Okay, good,

good good? Yeah yeah. So yeah, Now I work for the National Wildlife Federation UM, working on public land issues and wildlife issues and UM, but before I was a practicing attorney for more than a decade and worked in wildlife law areas and represented state agencies and uh in private practice as well. So, UM, is that that enough background for you? Oh? No, that makes you seem like extremely credential. And you've been on the show I don't know how many times, so people know who you are. Uh,

here's what we gotta talk to Dave about. And you know, I'm gonna set it up on a very I'm gonna set it up very high level. And then and then and then David Williams will get into the details. But and if I if the setup is flawed, Dave just go ahead and correct me on this. But everybody knows. Everybody knows that, UM, a police officer, like a regular police officer, can't just come snooping around your shed and

walking around your property. He needs to have probable cause and needs to get um, you know, they want need to go get a search warrant, right or the like actually chasing somebody or something, but just to go do a search on a hunch or whatever, they have to get a search warrant to go on it. But everybody also knows that you could be sitting out in a deer stand on private property and a game warden can decide just to have a mosey over and see what's

going on. They have what was open field doctrine for wildlife law enforcement, but Tennessee just had the open They had a court case or the open field doctrine was declared unconstitutional, which would mean that a game warden to go check a private property hunter would need to get a search warrant, which I'm guessing and Dave and clarify, I'm guessing this would happen. This must have like huge ramifications for wildlife law enforcement. Uh? Is am I overstating that?

Or is that correct? Well? Can I step you back just a minute, because I don't actually all the way okay, perfect, I don't. I don't think the case actually says um that the open fields doctrine is unconstitutional. What what this case was doing was there were a couple of landowners

that were challenging the constitutionality of a state statute. That state statute authorized UH law enforcement game wardens UH two enter property and I think the exact words are go upon any property outside of buildings, posted or otherwise in

performance of the executive director's duties. And so the open fields doctrine, like you correctly noted, right it It is basically this concept that is built in US Supreme Court law and affirmed by a bunch of state supreme courts around the country as well, says if you are outside of the the main home and and uh and the curtilage the area around that home where you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, that outside of there, it's it's

open fields. And you're not protected by the Fourth Amendment against illegal search and seizure. So this state statute that said, well, anywhere except buildings you can you can search. You know, it was the the idea was the plaintiffs in this case, the landowners were saying, well, that's an unconstitutional application of the open fields doctrine because there are going to be some places outside of these buildings where you cannot search. Um, and so that that I mean, that was sort of

the premise. I don't actually think the open fields doctrine

it was viewed as unconstitutional. But but what it does here in Tennessee, at least at at this level, there's still appeals that could occur, right as it appears to me anyway that you know, if you've if you've posted your property and you've you've made a reasonable expectations to put people on notice that that you don't want anybody there, and it's it's private property, and you're exercising that and you're using that property that yeah, you have to have

permission or a warrant to enter those places. But it also UH says there are certainly places that are wild or unoccupied. Uh why I think it's wild or waste lands or or there might have been some other language there that the court was siding to that that fall still fall outside of the purview of the Fourth Amendment or the in this instance, the Tennessee version of the

Fourth Amendment against uh, the legal search and seizure. That makes sense, Yeah, but what so, but why if what makes people in Tennessee up in arms about this, you know, I mean like put yourself in the war, like put yourself in the wardens. Uh mind frame. Yeah, sure, So my I suspect right that, and this is this is a lot of Uh, I'm going to suspect I would assume you know that sort of thing because I don't. I don't know specifically, I haven't talked to a specific

warden here about it. But um, before this, you had a statute that said they could basically go anywhere to enforce the state game laws. And now you have a case that greatly restricts the places that they might be able to to go without a warrant um or without landowner permission to enforce those state game laws. And so I think there's um, I've seen the argument in other places that you know, Tennessee is not unique. There are other states that uh have restricted, have have more um,

have more expansive views of the Fourth Amendment rights. It extends to farther to more lands than other places. Right then, So so you have the the federal government that has that has this U. S. Supreme Court case you know, dating back to the nineteen twenties US Hester case that's

set up the the open fields doctrine. But then you have state constitutions that also have Fourth Amendment search and seizures and so uh, states are are able to interpret that lad you know, their own constitutions, and they can be more restrictive than the the U. S. Constitution. And so you have a number of states that have done this. Tennessee is not unique here. But I have seen the arguments pop up. There's you know, there's UH. I've seen

people wardens are afraid, um. You know what what if they, for example, see an animal that's wounded and want to humanly dispatch that, do they have to first get permission? Or can they enter this open field and and dispatch a wounded animal? They might not be able to without permission, you know, depending on how the how this open fields

doctrine has defined UM. And then also I've heard the argument of you know, wardens are charged with protecting and conserving a public trust resource being wildlife, and they need the ability to quickly access areas and to check hunters um and that wildlife don't respect private property boundaries, and the agency has charged with managing all wildlife and needs to be able to to do that, and this would

create a limitation of being able to do that. And I've also heard it could uh there's concerns that it could send incentivize bad actors, you know, meaning, uh, if if you know that a warden no longer can use what they thought the open field doctrine allowed, and it's now much more narrow narrowly defined, that there might be a lot of places now where uh, the risk of poaching goes up. Oh I would that would be like

a huge that would have to enter people's mind. Oh yeah, Hey, Dave, this brody, I got a question for you about like how it used to be versus how it's gonna be now. Like let's say a game warden's parked on a country road and there's a dude off on and a tree stand. Um, game warden, here's a bunch of shooting, and then sees a guy dragging what appears to be a dope during buck season, Like it's private property, Like, now, can that

warden go check that guy out? Yeah? Yeah, So, And let me be clear, I'm not licensed in Tennessee, so I'm not trying to interpret Tennessee law here. Uh. And this is just sort of a uh, you know, one guy's opinion of the situation. But that's the facts that you described. In a lot of places, if if you see something from a public road, there's no expectation of privacy.

First of all, So you witness a crime being committed on private land from public a public road, that law enforcement officer can respond to that uh, criminal activity as it's occurring. You know, you're you, you see it happen, you can respond. Um. But if he just got but if he just got a call from like one of

the neighbors, he couldn't just go check it out. And so this is a this is where it's one of those It depends, you know, it depends on what that land is is it would it qualify as this wild or waste lands under uh, under the Tennessee law, I don't know. It's so the point being, this is gonna be so circumstance specific. If this case holds, like like right now it's at a circuit courd, it can still go to an appellate court, it can still go to

the state Supreme Court. If this decision holds, I think a lot of the hypotheticals are really going to be circumstanced specific. Right. So the fact so if you if you're struggling with this. How does it go on the ground? Cut with it? Right? I mean we're having an adult conversation to you about these and they're so great it sounds really alien to me. The the bummer of this is all these cases where where this has been challenged. Um. The examples that come forward are all examples in which

criminal activity was taking place. Yes, people trying to get out of tickets they got yes, And so there's not a lot of empathy for uh, you know, being defensive of private property laws when there's a crime taking place. So I got tons and tons of emails and messages and stuff regarding this, and you know, it kind of puts you in that whole like have versus have not type of mindset like yeah, screw those guys. They're they're poaching or bating or whatever. And it's hard to see

like the appropriate amount of uh, defensive private property. I guess what I'm saying. Um. You know, Montana had changed its approach based off of a similar circumstances. Guy Guy poached and elk Um had it hanging up on private property. The warden went past no trustpassing signs, not specifically to investigate a crime. But I was just going to talk to the landowner and happened to notice a bull elk hanging off the meat pole. Um, so there was that

expectation of privacy there. There were no trustpassing signs. Guy wasn't uh technically, I think like in the act of investigating. But there's the evidence right there. And the workaround from everybody who's been emailing me is like, well, can't the county judge just get better and more efficient at issuing search warrants? Is that a possibility? Dave? You know, I don't. I'm not one to to critique how judges issue search warrants. I've seen them. You know, search warrants can issue be

issued pretty quickly. You do have to still have probable cause that that something occurred, and you have to be able to you. We really in this country, and I think rightfully so protect personal liberties. And it's not necessarily just about private property, but it's about personal liberty and um, a right to not be subjected to an unlawful search or seizure of property. I mean, it's it's a founder it's the Fourth Amendment, it's a foundational amendment. It's it's

in every single state constitution as well. And UM, so it's a pretty when it's a when it's something like that, it's a very high bar um you know, to to to uh to violate that. So we're not violate that, but to show that there's a state interest to um to conduct that search or seizure. So you know, I look at it a judge and and they take their responsibility so seriously and they're not going to just give

a blanket warrant. There needs to be something there, so to say we need to speed up a process or something, I mean, that's I'm a little reluctant to go down that road just because you know, I think I feel pretty strongly personally about you know, some of the the personal liberties spelled out in the Constitution and doing everything we can with the judicial system to protect those, and sometimes it creates these these situations you describe where you have, um,

people that have probably committed a crime that wind up getting away with it because the evidence was collected in violation of their constitutional rights. And that's that's the system we operate under and I think it mostly works. UM. So yeah, yeah, you pose that question, but I would personally be yeah, I think. I think our judges do and county prosecutors do a pretty darn good job of of turning around warrant requests. Um. There. But they're probably

your exceptions to that where it could be improved. Um, but they're usually pretty good about it. So, Dave in a in a nutshell here, you're not you don't see this, and you're not thinking, Oh, their goals, the their goals, the country. Well, I mean it's there. How bad are things in Montana since it happened, since since that case happened, and and the open fields doctrine was there are limitations put on it there? Um, I think New York has limitations.

I think Mississippi might have some limitations. Uh. You know, there are half a dozen states or more that have gone a slightly different direction from the U. S. Supreme Court. They've interpreted their own state constitution differently. Uh I I haven't. I don't know. I haven't seen the substance evidence saying that this is. You know that we're seeing increases in poaching or it's making it harder for law enforcement to do their jobs. We wouldn't know, now, would we, Dave,

Because they can't go look anymore right now. That that's true. There could be an illegal There could be an illegal deer hanger from every tree back there, Dave. That's the thing is too, is like game winds often like uncover a violation like on the spot. You know, it's not like something that they're they they're they would need a search warrant for. They need to be able to react like right then. Or they're just like out shooting the ship with people and they're like, ye, something's fishy here.

Well what if it is the case of something small like fish? Right? So it's like, I'm pretty sure that guy has taken more than his limit. Ye got to go get a search warrant. You finally show up, there's the scent of beer batter and fry oil. When he goes in front of the judge for his search warrant, he's like, your honor, I could smell that fry. I could smell that fish fry. I know what they're doing. Yeah, you know, there's one other thing I think it's important.

They're things like migratory birds. So you know, doves, ducks, geese, you know that sort of thing. Uh. In places where there's migratory birds. The an interpretation of the of the state constitution for the open fields doctrine isn't going to impact like the U S Fish and Wildlife Service enforcement officers ability to investigate offenses and and UH they would be operating under the open fields doctrine established by the

United States Constitution. So now that doesn't get to your deer hanging in a tree thing, uh in in every

tree example. But for things where there's some concurrent juristic action over species management, like migratory birds, which are you know, obviously uh covered by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act federal authority with this, this is where it gets confusing for me, and where I think it adds another layer of complexity is because now you have a state that may be making a different interpretation of the open fields doctrine pursue it to their state constitution than the than the US Constitution,

and you have different law enforcement agencies operating under different jurisdictions that that are responding to different case law. So you could have an instance where a Tennessee game warden might not be able to walk into a field under this under this do uh under this new interpretation, but a US Fish and Wildlife Service officer could still do

so mm hmm potentially, which makes it confusing. Yeah, I'm like reflexibly a status quo guy when it comes to stuff like this, Like I don't you know, I've have spent my whole life under the knowledge that, like some dude from the A t F can't just show up and want to dig through your gun cabinet to make sure you haven't cut your twelve gage shotgun barrel too short, Right,

You just get used to that reality. But you know, when I was growing up and we're always breaking rules all the time, Uh, we spent a lot of time on private land really hoping a game warden didn't show up because we found ourselves in a compromise position, right, And I think that if from my perspective, man if I had known that that just wasn't gonna happen, I just feel like things would have gone even a little more off the rails now and and and that that's

the question that you kind of come down to, is we know there's not that many game wardens, we know there's a lot of big chunks private property. We know there's a lot of hunters and anglers out there during the seasons. Yeah, they need to be able to be efficient with their time. And the idea is effective, like the idea of the game warden showing up is effective for people who that sort of thing. And if you remove that, what can analogy? Is it effective against the

people that were breaking laws to begin with? No? But you remember we were hunting. Remember we were hunting in h South Dakota. Bell scared the ship out of me. Also Farmers Cornfield. He's like standing there, Yeah, like tapping me on the shoulder. How's the hunting? And the probable cause have been nothing? Like I heard a gunshot? Right, he could have could have seen some some birds fallen out of this guy or something. Yeah, that bird looked

like it fell illegally, right. Who you know what's funny about all of this is you have, uh, the case that started this all back in nineteen US Oliver Wendell Holmes,

Great Oliver Wendell Holmes. Really it's yeah, who's the same judge that decided Missouri the holland the Michael Traper Treaty upholding that same say he he wrote the opinion, it's two paragraphs the entire open fields doctrine and and it was really based on prohibition I mean that case was based on you know, moonshine, moonshining trade, you know, illegally selling moonshine, and uh, everything we know about the old open fields doctrine was born out of a case that

is two paragraphs long an opinion. I've never seen a U. S. Supreme Court opinion two paragraphs long, but I just find that fascinating. Maybe so, And it's been you know, but two paragraphs and and we have this this whole debate over and and all of the expansion, most of at the federal level, most of the talk about open fields doctrine and and how it's been reinterpreted and and or refined, that how it operates. It's really been around uh, illegal

drug use, marijuana fields, things like it's it worked. Talking about it in this game context, and it almost feels like in some instances, because I'm just thinking about what you all were talking about there just a second ago, in some ways it feels like trying to fit a square peg in around whole like where we're talking about in in our world open fields doctrine applying to a public trust resource, like how do you manage something that's

owned by everybody but doesn't know any boundaries, and we're trying to apply the rules that were established for controlling illegal drug trade and alcohol trade during prohibition. I just find that fascinating too. We've we've worked it into that system. But the open fields doctrine wasn't born out of this idea of game warden's being able to walk into fields and check and enforced game laws. It was about stopping

illegal alcohol and drug trade. M hm. Well, I think in in Tennessee, one of the cases that that they had brought up was this was years ago. Was was not fishing game related. It was a guy growing out behind his house, and uh, they tried to fight the whatever tickets and jail time or whatever that that fella received based off the open fields doctrine. It's like it wasn't visible from an open field or you know, it was it was tucked away. I was like, I'm not

a dumb guy growing weed. M it wasn't visible from the county road. M hm m hmm. I'm just gonna make noises like that. But it's like our own Maggie Hudlow's writing an article on this right now too, and she and I were chatting about it yesterday and and she's like, do you think there needs to be another law that can like take the space of this if it goes away, And and it's like that idea of like the need for law is so hard to pin down.

I think my gut reaction is no. I think what we need is people to give a ship in the first place and buy into the North American model of wildlife management, understand what biologists are saying. Uh, and then we don't need a bunch of extra laws. Yeah. Yeah, but some people always like to be naughty. Yeah, but they're breaking laws anyway. They don't care about that. It doesn't matter what the right from a European standpoint. And this is the only country we've ever been asked to

show a ticket, you know, yeah, never anywhere else. So something's working, guys. You know, that's pretty incredible because I've been pretty lucky. I've traveled all over the world, but Appellations. I was fishing for trout in those little mountain streams and this guy just appeared. I shot myself right, and he said if you got and I said, yea, yeah,

I've done everything right. And then he started feeding fish with some like fish pellets, and I thought well, no, I'm not catching anything here, and they were huge fish. And then another time I was hunting for dove that wasn't so sexy because I didn't have a license. I've been out with some people so confessionally fess up. But I was with a guy and he said, oh, we'll get it sorted in the morning. We didn't, and this warden came up and said, I'm really lucky I found you.

It's like I cover thousands of square miles kind of thing and I've got you. And I was hammered. Yeah, no, no, he was really good. He was he saw that we were honest. He clearly didn't know who I was, but he said, no, go and get your ticket and just treat this to put it down to experience. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because that's those would be federal right. No, they're migratory. Yeah, but I don't think they have federal damn it. They're they're migratory bird, but they do have federal over So

did you chuck it up to you being a knowing European. Well, now it's with a very new knowing Americans, so that's no excuse. We can't get away with that. It was pretty entertaining trip actually, and yeah, because we sat we shot a lot of doves and we sat down and we're tucking into him with all the young kids that evening and all the all the grown ups weren't really eating them, and I thought this is a bit odd. And then they got out big fat, juicy steaks. Learned

a lesson here, but it was good. It's good that you know you've got a system there that actually works. All right, Daved, will let you go. Man, alright, Hey, I appreciate it. Yeah, appreciate you coming on and providing some clarity there. I like it better when you just really oversimplify things and make it seem super alarming. But that's not what I do, though, you know. I like it better when one well, you guys are the ones that are supposed I'm just supposed to provide the factual

legal information, and you guys are supposed to make it hyperbolic. Right, that's the way. But that's what I was trying to do. I was trying to make a yuperboling. I got shot down. You're trying to get me to make it hyperbolling. I want you back me up, man, I want to I want you to have my back on the hyperbole. All right, thanks a lot, Dave. Good luck with you. Thanks, I'm sure it sounds good. Okay, one more thing before we get into before we get into all things all things

robbed here. Um, So this May it's May second, dropped like this is right now? Is May second? So okay, Our new book, Outdoor Kids in an Inside World releases May third, ships on May three. If you so, we have a special thing right now you can do, but you gotta hustle. You gotta do it right now. If you buy the book right now, if you're listening on May second, Monday, if you buy the book right now, you can scoop on over uh to the meat eater dot com. So bible, come ay second, scoot down over

to the meater dot com. You'll find an announcement there will take you to a page where you can enter your purchase information. Doesn't matter where you about damn booked from. You'll enter that purchase information and you will get a

free fifty page resource guide email to you. So we built when we're working on the book, Brody Knight built a fifth what was gonna be like a fifty page appendix of resource guides about all everything you need to know about the nitty gritty stuff, the nitty gritty on outdoor kids. So the book itself, Outdoor Kids in an Inside World, covers like introductory materials, UM. It covers hunting, fishing, gardening, foraging, um, like bringing the out doors inside at home? What's that camping?

Camping covers all this stuff about like questions, parents have anxieties, parents have suggestions, stories from my own experiences raising three outdoor kids. Right, everything's in there. But we also built this this fifty page appendix which was like gear recommendations, resources like the nitty gritty tips and details about stuff to go how to help yourself on this journey of getting your kids outside, which is a pain in the ass. Yep,

it's hard. This will this will speed things up for people that are like asking questions about how to do anything outside with kids. Um, it's like a whole damn extra book. So the extra book. And what we're doing is I yeah, what we're doing is we're giving it away, but you got a pre order to get it. It's format and it's nice to get the thing. Order the book today. Take here, it doesn't matter, worry about it.

Barnes and Noble, Amazon, local bookstore, whatever you're going, enter your information and you get the feet the fifty page resource guide smoking deal. Yeah, and the books phenomenal. If I don't say so myself, he did pretty good on this one. Yeah. I mean, I think it's I just think it's timely, and it's it's informed by so many The other thing is it's informed by so many questions that come in here from parents of young kids all the time. Discussion just like all the stuff, you know,

uh yeah, what happens? You know, like what are your thoughts on if you for a kid to like see an animal die when they're really young, Like, how do you handle that? What about when kids don't want to eat wild game? At what age should you let them start shooting firearms? When should they be able to shoot firearms without um parental guidance? How to get him? How to get him rigged up for fishing? Why are they such a pain and he has to go camping with? Yeah?

What kind of gear to buy them? What to take them hunting for when they're, you know, first getting into it, What to fish for when they're first getting into it, when they come back without their mittens. What probably happened to their mittens. You're gonna go buy a new pair, and that's what you're gonna do. Why. Oh, there, day my boy Matthew, we're checking some beaver traps and he on the day we're setting walks in over the top of his rubber boots. On the day we're checking walks

in over the top of his rubber boots. And I asked him, not thinking how to get an answer, why do you keep walking in over your boots? And he said, I don't like to look down. He had a good reason, meaning he's not monitoring where the water is because he doesn't He likes to apparently look more forward. Yeah, but basically you got a plan on that happening every time. The same kid also laid this on me. Uh, I was blaming something on him, and he's said, it's not

my fault. I forgot, And I was like, no, forgetting counts as your fault. It's like that's bucketed under fault. You know that's not it's not like a defense. Forgetting is your fault. My kid says, it's not my fault. I got distracted. Yeah, somebod needs to make like a chart it says like fault and then it's like a family tree. But then under fault is forgot distracted. I didn't give a ship like like all the like all the reasons that you don't do what you're supposed to do.

You know what I do. If I had a pile of kids that need to learn how to fish, please I had written the chapter, I'd buy that TRCP fishing trip with Pete Alonso, Like Uncle Pete's got covered. That's good idea. Put that in the book, a short book. Uh so check that out Outdoor Kids in an Inside World available everywhere. Books are sold right now, go and get it. You got kids, rub look at a look at average transition. Yeah, I've got four yeah, one four teen,

three girls and a boy. Yeah one of them still live with you. Now they're all that well one yeah, the others are all doing their own thing. Now. The oldest ones was seriously into a hunting Yeah. Yeah, that's good. But she's an artist as well, so she does a lot of bronze arts. So she shoots them, eats them, and then turns them into pieces of art. That's wonderful. So again, this is a robbed gearing to talk about your business. First Spartan Precision, so I set up my

backgrounds climbing. That was really my sort of big thing when I was younger, because it's very difficult to get into hunting in the UK and we can get into that later, but I set up Spartan Precision because of my climbing background. I wanted lightweight equipment that was modular because everything I carry was on my back. So if I could make a tripod or a bipod that would do other jobs as well, lightweight and make it well, it's sort of I thought it had a big advantage.

And look, there was nothing genius about what we did. I was formerly in an aviation business. We bought the nose of Concorde. That kind of explains all the slick, slick engineering, the nose of the serial number six, which never actually flew. It was assimilated, it was it done twice the hours of every other Concorde because they checked it for cracks or damage. And we turned it into a piece of art which is still sitting in Oxford

Aerodrome somewhere. Spanked a load of cash on it, so that was a huge waste probably, but it made me see where I could go because we set the Concorde on an Olympus engine bearing the Olympus being the engine that powered Concorde, and the guy that covered it up and used two clamshells and rare earth magnets at these tiny little fucking things, I mean dinky and they had like sixteen key or what thirty pounds of pull on them.

And I said, chip Man, can you make be a bipod that sticks on my rifle with one of those? And that was the end of my genius. So I can't really take more credit than that. But dead thing though, sticks those Yeah, it's kind of amazing, Like when you hold it up there to that little socket, it's like anti my pod on my rifle. Till I started using that thing. Well, yeah, because I used to you in the old days, when you do use those out, who's

the kind of they're like the first ones out and things. Yeah, you'd be going through some older children hold just like that, things like it always comes out hanging on exactly, and mentally, when you're like a jillion miles into your walk, you're kind of thinking of the things that you could just leave on the trail. Yeah. Yeah, So I used to take a lot of people hunting, and I had one of those Harry Spi pods on my rifle, but I

got it's a great tool. You know, I'm not knocking it, but it's just once you set the shooting it, yeah, once, but the springs can make noise and all sorts of things. I just didn't like clutter underneath the real estate. So I took a Swedish client into shoot a Roebuck once I'd taken the leap i iPod off, and he wasn't comfortable making the shot. And I'm not the type of people that the person that's pushing people to make a shot, And I said, look, if you're not comfortable, mate, skip it.

Well that's not said that. What I do is I see what exactly is the problem anyway? That's that was really the birthplace. So it was it was. It was a sort of mix of climbing and hunting and all of those things, and a bit of aviations behind it. That really was the birthplace. As spartan and I gave up a very lucrative business in aviation, sort of got divorced from my dear old business partner, which was far more ugly than getting divorced from my wife, but that's

another story. And then got in a little boat and started paddling hard and that was We're in our ninth year now. Yeah. Yeah, nearly sunk a few times on the way, but we just managed to keep our noses above water. And this is where it's at the eyes. You know, we're in the worst bloody country to be making shooting stuff by a country mile. You know, it's

just crazy. Explain that ext We'll first tell people how to find how to find You guys are really they combine from you guys, sparting, precision equipment, sparing pursuing equipment. But I was default javel On, which is the original bipod. Yeah, and now there's a family of bipods and a family of tripods, and they're all modular. It's a bit like Lego for the hunter. You know, you build what you need. We're not dictating. I mean, I'm not in love with tripods.

We make tripods, but you can run them as bipod squad systems, PENT systems. I'm not saying I'm going to go to the woods with the PENT system, but I'm going to go to the woods on probably two legs and the work I would do in the UK and hunt on two legs all the time because short distances and it's quick and we're managing, dear, we're not as in standing up standing, sharing, and most of it well I'm going to be doing in the UK is going

to be standing work anyway. It's woodland and we're after hello and right right, dear, really, and the whole ethos of what we're doing is to try and shoot as many as we possibly can because and we've lost the rice already. I mean, there's just too many of them. He's gone crazy over there. Yeah, I'm gonna set it up like the way that annoy I'm gonna set it up in a way that annoys people with exposure to Europe. Right, it would be this. We talked about Daniel Boone all

the time. Let's take Danna. We're talking about Robin Hood and Daniel Boone. Okay, Daniel Boone's ancestors came from England. They almost certainly we're not hunters. When Daniel Boone got when his family came to America, you know, they wound up in Pennsylvania and Boone started becoming a big time hunter. And what it was he could just kind of roam around willy nilly out in the woods hunting deer um. This is prior to how deer management in the US

was codified into the law. But there was just this expectation that deer that were out on the open land, out on the unclaimed lands, we're free for the taking. There's no regulatory structure in place, but you could own a firearm and go out and hunt deer on open unclaimed lands on the frontier. Okay. This stood in stark composition to what many Americans referred to as the European model, in which deer are owned by the landowners the king's deer.

Most of the deer are live on large private estates. The landed gentry, who controls and owns these estates, sets the agenda for deer management um. And you get into the to understand this, you get into like the myth of robin Hood right where he would go out and hunt, okay, and shoot the king's deer in order to feed the poor and his him doing the was a capital offense, meaning you used to be that you know you could.

There's a rich history of stuff, and you just go look all over and find books about and stuff that the land managers used to be able to actually set a type of leg hold trap meant to catch a man, okay, And you'd set these out to catch poachers. You could get the death penalty for poaching. You could have an eye gouged out, a hand cut off, or shooting the king's rabbits. Right, it was like wildlife was a was

the property of the wealthy exactly right. Well, okay, then why do here's the thing, why does everybody get so piste? And it's not it's not Europeans to get pissed. It's Americans who go hunt in Europe that's spent a lot of time in Europe. They could all been out of shap and they're like, you don't know your old blip. What's the word punt bloviating? Well, it's I live on

Ashdown Forest right. Ashdown Forest is the old private hunting ground of Henry the eighth, and you can still see the perimeters in places that there's a twenty seven mile walled private hunting ground with a ditch dug all the way around and a pale fence shaped in so wildlife could run in and couldn't get out. And then there's little villages around it called hatches, which are the old entrances onto the forest. And what you said is exactly right.

The people that lived on those forests couldn't hunt anything. They weren't allowed to and if they got coolt it was a pretty yeah, it wasn't going to be it wasn't going to end. Well, um, we don't have public land. We have public land, but no public land that you can hunt on. So if you're little Jimmy living in the middle of London, there's no bloody chance in a million years you're going to get the opportunity to play like we do. It just doesn't happen. So what you

get is you get people like me, lucky bastards. There's no landowners that won't have a dear able and then go Rob, come and help me manage the deer, or you get stinking wealthy people, big landowners that manage it. So what's happened in essence in the UK is hunting is an elitist game. You know, it's it's absolute abstract elitism. You're not going to get into it unless you're channeled through the directions I've said. The only other way is

if you become a professional hunter. So we have colleges, we've got three of them in the UK where you can become a gamekeeper, deer stock or whatever, and they're pretty intense courses. And that's a formal degree, a formal degree, college trained, formal. You come out with the qualification. I wouldn't say it's like going to university, persads. You go to college and you spend three years doing it either

in fisheries, deer management, bird management, whatever. So they come out pretty well qualified and they come out pretty knowledgeable in their subject matters for sure. But most people in the UK they spend thousands of hours in their back garden shoot in air guns, twelve ft pound air guns, and they don't progress beyond that. Right now, they'll spank a lot of money on these air guns because they

never get the opportunity to go out and hunt. Now, these air guns there, twelve ft pound should be lucky if you killed a bloody squirrel with one. So it's you've got over here, from a European or UK perspective, a huge playground right which is absolutely awesome in every regard. I'm sure it's got its issues, I'm sure it's got its problems, but from a European perspective, it's pretty epic

what you've got going on. So I want to get into I want to get into the gun law thing for for for a minute, but I want to ask no question prior to that. Another difference. And again we're talking right now, like we're talking with someone from the UK. We're talking about the UK. So this is this is installment one of the euro Report. And in all honesty, the people that get riled up about our typification of Europe never cite the UK as an example of where

we're wrong. They talked about other places. Yeah, but you know, begin lumping them all together now, So trying not to do that focusing on the UK. One thing, though, I could walk into a butcher shop in the UK and see ducks with shotgun pellet holes in them. Explain that. So it's the It's completely different. So in the UK you have professional hunters right managing deer, shooting a lot

of deer. Right, All of that venison or whether it's birds or whatever, can go straight back into the food chain. So unlike you guys were allowed to sell it to game dealers, who then in turn will send it and sell it to restaurants, pubs, et cetera, because because the landowner owns it and the restaurant. There's a restaurant in London called Rules. Look that one up. I think seventeen

seventy six, oldest restaurant in London. That's it. They started it right when we started whooping you guys ass Probably well, but no game game is frequently eaten in the UK and sold is it pretty popular with I mean, Presulia has been like wild shot ducks are popular with people who would never shoot a duck. Well, the problem is we're probably twenty years ahead of the game in a bad way from where you lads are. That's what I

would say. So when I was growing up, if I took a rabbit or a duck round to my neighbors, she thanks, thanks very much, I'm going to have that. If you did it now they go, well the funk are you doing? Yeah, we've gone We've lost it. And you could blame supermarkets. You could blame the British Broadcasting Corporation for that. We could talk have a whole subject matter on the BBC. But more well, it's a public corporation. We pay for it as a taxpayer. Um My father

was edited to Radio Times many years ago. And BBC used to be a brilliant corporation. Now it's a tiny little minority sort of dictating rules and REGs or trying to steer us in a certain direction that I frankly really discussed me like it's over politicized. Yeah, yeah, completely biased. I mean they employ people that are openly biased. And I said, I spend my life right into them, saying I pay for this as a public corporation. Please, guys,

can we have some unbiased information. It's some impartial information, and it's I'm pissing in the wind. No, no, no, you know, I'll tell you, man, I don't pay for it. But I hear those guys, and sometimes they get me a little. Yeah, I mean we get like anti hunting articles in the media and things like that. But yeah, over there, it's like the mainstream media. It's enormous and frankly, population probably don't give us screw either way, right, they

just don't care. But the BBC and other entities have decided that hunting is not for us. And again, you know, I sort of get it because so many its easy to hate something you don't get a chance to play at Oh, so I've taken vegans out. I've taken vegetarians out. I love it because I like to enter into a debate. So we'll come out hunting with me for a day and then go and spend it down a fucking chicken farm,

and then you tell me what's what's worse? Right now, we all know as hunters it doesn't always end well, and mistakes happen. We have to live with that. But would I rather be a fellow deer on ashdown forest or a chicken just about to be spanked out to KFC? I know what I'd rather take? What chances that? Alright? So, uh, guns, what does it take? Let's say you had Let's say here you are and somehow your neighbor says, um, here here the situation you're you're you? Yeah. Your neighbor says, oh, Rob,

just so happens. I got a pretty sizeable chunkle land. If you want to go out there and shoot a few deer, have at it? Um And he says, The thing is, I don't. I don't have any guns. I don't know. You have to figure out and end out what do you do? That bit's easy, That bit probably is easier for us than it is for you. So I've got an open what you call an open license. It's easier than we go down to the we go down to the hardware store about a gun. I've got a gun. So you're telling me when I said you

through you because you're thinking about you. Yeah, okay, Little Jimmy, Little Jimmy, Jimmy and London's Jimmy and London. He he winds up that his second cousins, neighbor whatever says, if little Jimmy is so interested in reading books about hunters and whatnot, he ought to come out and get a deer. So little Jimmy isn't for a tough ride, right, a long tough ride, if he really wants to do that. And let's say also that despite his name, little Jimmy

is eighteen, right, and little Jimmy's eighteen. Well, now he can legally fire a full ball. I think as a kid, you're not even legally allowed to unless it's under certain protocol. Um. It's it's absolutely driven to not provide you a arm. Can you point warbo a real quick full ball, like like anything like a three o three or something, not a ring fire. There's different high powdered rifle we'd call it.

But little Jimmy has got basically if he's in London, he's I'm almost certainly not going to get a fararm certificate for deer hunting anyway because the London authorities hate firearms full stop. It will be a huge challenge. He's got to have the land approval, as you say, if he's got a patch of land, then they're going to want him to go and do a level one and level two deer stalking course. That's pretty major. You know, that's probably six months of hard study to get it.

That's not taking that online safety course should you shoot someone right? No, it's pretty intense. And the and the thing is getting a firearms like Look, there's seventy plus seventy million people in the UK, of which I'm gonna I might be slightly out, but so I think it's a hundred and fifty five thousand firearms license holders. Right of that hundred and fifty five thousand, I would imagine less than a third or actually out in the woods hunting. Most of them are be rain using a busy range

in places like that. But you need to have a reason. You've got to have a reason. You've got to have a reason to own a firearm. It's really really challenging, you know. I to see you guys and I look at that with green eyed envy and think it's so cool what you can do over here. Right, But again I'm getting back to the fact it's why people hate hunting. We're not allowing anybody to partake in what we're doing

unless you've got a spank load of cash. So they all spend thousands of quid on a air gun in their back garden plinking tin cans that would hardly kill a squirrel, and they spend a lot of money on it. There'll be hundreds of thousands of people in the UK with air guns, which in not in Scotland it's different, but in the UK you don't need a firearms license if it's under twelve foot pounds are using. Oh, there's a low, there's bs A, there's um, there's a Swedish

coming that makes some pretty cool stuff. But they spend a fortune shooting games. Yeah, they have some gammos as well, but a lot of people will spend a lot of money on that because they can't get firearms license and what like have you. This is the digression, but at with the with these souped up air guns, like at fifty meters, what's a good gun. But they're not souped up. We're not allowed to have a soup. If you have a souped up air gun, then you're going to go

down the firearms channel. So if your ag gun, he's over twelve foot pounds, which is going to give you, let me guess him six hundred and fifty ft per second for two two and seven fifty for one seven, you know you are running out of steam pretty goddamn quick. You're not gonna get My kid has a gamble air gun. Now, it's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I mean they're they're legal to use for a big game, and you got to get geared up to cock that thing. Man,

he's got to like stand up. But I mean it's powerful. Yeah, now we don't have we do have those, but again you'll fall into the full ball firearms thing. So it's and me personally, I couldn't be asked with it, so I just moved into climbing instead, and then later got into hunting because I knew channels I could get into. So do you have the permits. Now I've got permits. Yeah, yeah, I mean I've done a lot of hunting in the UK,

let's say, dear management. But that's because I knew the right people and slid under the doorway, slipped in there and never exited. So you do you have fire arms in your possession at home? Yeah? Yeah, I do. I'm allowed to. But I'm a rarity, right, I'm not talking shotguns. Shotguns completely different thing because everybody's into clay pigeon shooting, so there'll be a lot of people with shotguns, but full ball rifles go on. Then I got to remember

this question when you get around. Can they shoot slugs out of the shock? No? Not anymore. We can't hunt with bose. We can't shoot slugs with a shotgun. No, no, we're not allowed hunt with bose because they're deemed inefficient. Or there's something. There's something. This is a rabbit hole that I might not be educated to answer, but I

think there's something. In the eighties, there was an old law, correct me if I'm wrong with don't This was a medieval law that somebody could shoot a drunken Scotsman in Wales or something with a U bow made in the made in a certain place, and I think somebody actually tried it right, but they got him because his U bow was made in Spain. You'll have to look that up. But it's just yeah, but anyway, it was in the details.

Bring let's just but it's yeah. It's both were very limited to what we have I think, and it's best. It's very good in the UK. Will defend that. When it's well run and well managed. I think it's extremely good. What's the deer hunting and how we how we go about it? My challenge, my personal challenges. So many people don't get the opportunity to do it, and I think

that's pretty rare. They're even aware of the now. I don't because it's not promoted harder and we don't have a single entity that's really promoting hunting to my mind in a very good way. There's lots of different entities, all too busy taking chunks out of each other rather than thinking what's the common goal here? So I guess how often this would be a good way to kind of sum it up, would be like how often have you spoken with people who are like, oh, I wanted

to get into hunting? But I couldn't figure out how that would happen quite a lot, but not as much as you de might imagine because it's so off base. It's so they don't live in Montana, they don't live in a place where there's a big land mass and they can see the opportunities, so it's not really promoted. Well. I think there would be a lot of people that would want to get into it. Certainly deer management and deer deer hunting in the UK has grown a lot

in the last few years. There's a lot more people getting into it. But it needs the dollar, you know, and that's the only way. Really the history of bird shooting or there is unreal. I mean the amount of pheasants raised in the UK hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and again that's a real rich man sport, you know.

That's it's yeah, and that's that's going to change. I think you'll see that die in the next ten years because because governments and controls and anti shooting, anti hunting entities, Well, bring me back in ten years. I'd be amazed if they're still doing big bird days. You get away with the walked up days, I'm sure, But they're really hitting the grouse shooters in Scotland, very driven shoots. Yeah, the driven shoots coming after him on what on what grounds?

You tell me? I don't know, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we banned fox hunting, they still drag a skin or whatever, and thinks it's just it's just those that haven't got like to destroy what they're not able to do. Do you like anything about the UK? Well, I'm here. I've been here since the fifth of Bloody January. Does to your questions other than the shorts quick escape down to Patagonia which is like Montana fifty years ago, I'm not. I'm not a great I like people. Don't get me wrong.

This is gonna sound coming coming as I got older. I just want to be with the right people, and I'm very happy on the my own skin. I think when I do spend time back in the UK, most of it's north of the border, and I spent a lot of time up in Scotland because it's just quite up there. So we answered your questions, Steve know, I'm probably not. There's better places. Yeah. Can we jump back

to the meat for a second. Yeah, Am I reading this rate where it says you don't get it like you go out and shoot a deer, Yeah, you don't get to keep for yourself. So if I shoot fifty deer a year, right that that carcass is not mine. That carcass goes straight back to the estate and that meat is sold and that's how they make them. So there's no cutting off a backstrap. And I'm given a

few testicles now and again. Are you serious? I'm un But they're just like if you go if you do a cold deer, I mean they got to give you want us for They will give me one if I want. If I want venison, I'm not going to starve out. But the rules are that venison goes in the larder. Right, that's done, and that's off to the off to the restaurant after the game. Does I mean we get a lot of swedes come over because the thing about the UK is you're going to shoot a lot of animals.

You know, we had we had eight swedes come over a couple of years back, pre COVID, and there was four of us and I think we shot a hundred and twenty deer in two days. That's a lot of work. They're not bark side their fellow size. So they're sort of big labs kind of thing. But and that's that's worth a lot of doubt, that's worth many thousands. So and plus the crops. There's a lot of crops down in the south. And if you've got a hundred and

forty deer in your crop, well it's it's gone, isn't it. Yeah. What's that word you guys used for when you got something from the diaphragm relic? Yeah, so you as the hunter, you're doing that again, completely different to what you lads to do. Right, we'll leave everything in the skin. Well, take out all the green, right, we might all the green, all the intestines, diaphragmbar. Yeah, yeah, we might leave the heart and the other organs in depending on where you are,

or we'll take him out. They get hung in the skin, they get putting the chiller in the skin, and then they go off to the game dealers that way. Yeah. Can we walk back to let's say, let's say a little Jimmy who's not so little, wants to pursue obtaining a firearm, and he goes through that six month course and he's obtained the firearm. It's his second cousins, neighbor. So we know that he has a purpose and he has um what does he have to do in order

to end up actually hunting arranged? So so basically he'll be apprenticed to somebody even after the deer he's done the exams and things, how does he find That's the challenge When there's only a hundred and fifty five thousand firearms license holders and probably less than a third doing it, there's an infinite number of people that are queuing up to get that opportunity that will never get that opportunity.

I find that pretty sad. I remember you told me earlier though if you um so, can you are there estates where you can you know there's a whole kind of package deal of staying there and hunting, or can you can you find someone who is like a recent graduate from one of these deer management programs? Like what would this person actually do if they were just completely determined to end up a little bit of both? Right?

So if you show real determination, and like when I got out of hunting for a while and got into the climbing because of that frustration, and then I managed I found a local estate Caldre Estate down the south and basically were looking for some helpers. So I would help take punters out, clients out, you know, and we would call the females right. We wouldn't shoot the bucks or anything like that. But I spent years doing that kind of things, building up. But it's it's a challenge.

It's a really difficult thing to get into because there isn't any public land, so you have to either go through that first channel you said, which is incredibly expensive. I can you could arrange to go hunting tomorrow in the UK if money is not an issue. But it's the same with our fly fishing. You know, you're going to spank a lot of money and maybe it's going to cost you a thousand bucks for a day, you

know that kind of figure. You could get less, but it's it's going to be that and up really, or you just scrub around, find some gamekeepers, help the gamekeepers for a year or two and then they might say, well, come and shoot a deer. That's it. And what is the what is the regulatory structure? Like forget all the stuff about getting a firearm having access, Like what's the regulatory structure? Could get give me like, give me the

you guys. I know you guys don't do acreage, but expressed for me the land like a large estate or a medium estate whatever. How much ground are we talking about? So the estates don't tend to be big because there isn't a large land mass. A reasonable estate there might be three thousand acres pretty big, but I mean the one for my dear management. I might be shooting in

somebody's back garden. You know, they might have a deer issue, right, and you could be looking at less than ach and Mrs miggins roses are being eaten by the by the row, so you've got to go and help Mrs Meiggins. That's where an open license comes in handy. So an open licensees you're determined whether it's safe to shoot. So unlike I think over here you you have to be so far from a building before you can take a shot.

To you, No, this state does. This state doesn't have that phone, Dave, No, the state doesn't have This state doesn't have a specific distance from building. Right, But you'd get into you get into questions of like what might be like criminal negligence or something like that, But there's not like some states are very specific if you're gonna shoot within four fifty of an occupied dwelling, you have their written permission from UM, the owner of the structure, right,

but this date doesn't. This state in particular doesn't have that. But there's sort of an understanding of what's okay and not okay. Got you So, So in the UK it's very different, you know, because there's such a short amount of land. You might have deer mucking around in a tiny area and you've got to manage that problem. So that's probably one thing that we can do, but it's really challenging and it's not going to get any easier.

And the whole thing the reason I'm pleased to be here is you don't want to be following what's happening

in the UK. It's just not sexy. I mean, we don't want to go on no, no, it's it's it's not sexy at all and it's going to get worse than I can see a day where you know, they just they'll have professional deer hunters managing deer and the public won't even be allowed to do an actual fact in Scotland, you might want to look this up here and I think somebody's just got a contract of manage fifty thousand red deer right in that in the islands.

Now that's a native species. We've got six species of deer, arguably seven, but six species of deer in the UK, three of which are native or considered native, and the others are non native name the need of one. So the native ones are read um Fellow and row Fellow aren't truly native. They were bought over by the Normans or the Romans, nobody knows, but they've been long enough, so they've got the native flag now. And then the

others are Asian imports. Yeah. So I want to touch on the regulatory structure real quick, and just for this case, let's go to it that there's a three thousand acre estate. Yeah, um, do they the government set down like a season in which they can be hunted, or like any kind of any kind of rules about how far they can push

a call? Now there's a seat, you're right seat. There are seasons for all the species other than mount Jack, because the mount jack a non native and they're normally pregnant within three days of getting birth, so they considered a pest all the other day. I have a strict um period of time in which you're allowed to shoot them. If you have a real problem with numbers, you can get extensions to see a mund jack gets bred within three days. It's normally they're normally pregnant within three days

of giving birth. Yeah, I wouldn't fly. Yeah, let's disgust, don't. I don't think you're thinking about the munt jack. Steve's good for jack. Yeah. Yeah, they are crazy little things. They're very cool, and they have a row. They bark. They call them the bark. Indeed, they said, you might think you've got a dog kicking off. They got a little little tusks things that are slightly removed about a bit,

and they fight it. They're pretty aggressive, so they've got very thick fat and fur around the next We grew up just considering them absolute pest because they eat all the flora and fauna. But the continentals love coming over and hunting them. They're quite challenging to hunt because they never stopped. It was on the move, so you've got

to be pretty quick on them. Taste bloody good mind you zero yeah tiny yeah yeah yeah yeah no, But I mean we've we've talked about it because it is it's an intriguing animal because it's got so much character. You know, who do you refer to as continentals? Like everybody that's not in the UK, But what would we be. We're not continentals, You're Americans. Yeah, So al right, back to this regulatory structure thing, this three thousand acre estate. Yeah,

it's got all three native species. Yeah, let's just focus on the native species. So they'll say there is a season, yeah, not determined by the landowner. Now, not determined. But that's the government controlled thing. And does the government have biologists that will do a survey and say, like, you boys can shoot X dear on this property to an extent,

but nothing like you guys do. Yeah, there will be some professional biologists that will enter into debates on how we manage those populations, but nothing even close to what you guys do. I've never in the UK been asked to show a firearms license. I've never run into I mean, you think of all the hunting right, it's crazy, it's crazy that how different it is. But you put a lot of money back in you've got those hunting licenses. That's tags a lot of it goes back into protecting

what you've got. I think that's fantastic. With us, it's different because the private landowner can spend that money that he's made from the venison and they're selling the hunting on what everybody were likes, says Cash. What are the seasons like, yeah, we there's if you came over to the UK, there's always something you can hunt or you've got the munch out for a start. That seasons are pretty long then compared to what you guys have got like it's you know, you might have a few weeks,

hours will be months. Would you be able to take us hunting here? Absolutely? If you want to have a crack at that? Yeah, are you? And the thing is I could get you. This is the crazy thing. You land at Heathrow or Gatwick, you could be hunting within an hour of getting off. You know, once you're at that airport, it's so and people that freaks people out.

You know, I take people hunting on this land that you can see the middle of London and then you know, I think it's crazy, but that's what you have to do with small land masses. But yeah, yeah, it's easy. Are you required to use a suppressor? Not required, but they're easier to get than they are over here, I believe. I mean, we did it in a different channel because

they're professional hunters. We're all death because we're shooting so much. Right, so you're shooting like fifty d a year, you're out there was a lot. So we got to said this, we can we please get old and here a bit. So that's how we got the moderators, the suppressors, silents or whatever you want to call them. So very rarely they're just they're they're way more popular. I can't think of a guy that I go hunting with it doesn't

have a suppressor. Yeah, yeah, imagine in those like when you're shooting on small properties, were up, I don't want the neighbors here exactly, booms going on exactly. And I grew up without suppressors. We all grew up not using them. And so the guys are like the next generational for me, they'll can't fucking here. So if you were licensed, fully licensed, open firearms, licensed, UM, and you lacked a place to go hunt, you just find that online and you could pay. Yeah,

you could find it online. You could pay. There's normally people when you're at that level, there's normally people with dear problems, and we're quite a rarity, so you'd normally find people that want you to help out. Um. Yeah, it's a tiny, tiny sector in a huge population that's doing it. So you'll get a call occasionally from someone who's got an attack and the rose bushes. Yeah, exactly,

that's exactly. What's the steps you have to take. I just need to deem the area safe to shoot and then I can go out and manage that problem hopefully. I mean just jumping back. Ashdown Forest is a perfect example. We're talking about this private hunting estate. It's only recently

they allow deer management on that forest. The way they manage deer populations on Ashdown Forest road traffic accidents, huge numbers of road traffic accidents, and because the conservators decided hunting was cruel or not right, they wouldn't allow anybody that's six thousand acres of deer just going out of control, spiraling out of control that nobody can manage. In the last few years they've changed that and I think they've got like half a dozen professional deer stalkers in deer

hunters in there now. There. I could be I'm not I know the lads that do it. I'm not there because I'm never looking at home. I mean the amount of time I'm behind a trigger, he stays. So I'm almost retired from it because I'm too busy selling the virtues of spot Uh. I'm gonna go back to that that call you get from someone in that case, like someone you have a small property owner, Yeah, and they have a deer problem. Yeah. Uh, you still have to go by the seasons, like whatever the seasons are, and

what do you need to do? Do you need to does a biologist or someone need to confirm that there's a problem or are you able to determine as a problem. We determine there's a problem. Right If if Mrs Meiggin's roses are being eaten and she's piste off with the deer doing it, she can phone me and say, look, Gearing, get over here and help me out with these days. Can you can you take a few out for me and then she can eat them. She can eat him. She might not want to eat him, but you can

sell them. I can sell them. I can eat it myself. I can do anything I like with that. What's that stuff? Like? Uh? Ballpark street market, commercial value? While venison's expensive. You sell it on the hook and on the hoof, you sell it carcass week, carcass wait, so you'll sell it at the moment. The game dealer is almost a bit of a cartel. Sorry, guys, probably not gonna hate me for that,

but I think they all know each other. They set the price at the beginning of the season, so red deer you might get, you might get a pound a pound, so that's like a dollar fifty or dollar sixty for a pound of meat for a No, that's on the hook, that's that's carcass way right. But it should. But when it gets into the if in the supermarkets and restaurants, if it's wild venison, it will be like twelve quid for a pound there. But I don't know what that means.

What's twenty dollars. Let's say, let's say pound huge money. We should be like pretty comparable to cry finished finished beef perfect. Were you glad to get out of the you or not? Um? I actually voted to get out, but for a different reason for many others, and it wasn't It was basically I was just fed up. They never signed their tax returns off. They're you they've never you know, there's loads of money that's gone off into the ether, a million bottles of champagne, and we can't

even manage our own government. You know. I think it's great that we're united. I just don't think we've grown up enough for it yet. Sorry guys. Yeah, my Mrs hates me because she's Maglie. She's French and she said you bustard, so she had to do a load of extra paperwork to stay in the country. So sorry Magolie about that one. That's your wife. Yeah, with those market prayers is bet you don't get invaded playerss if you're a poor shot. If you're we won't invite people that

are poor shots. So so like those Scandinavians that come over and manage to deal with us, I'd say they're better shots than we are. They don't screw up. Yeah, they're very very They course they screw up, but they're on it. You know, if you say the protocol is this or it's all head shotting head shots today, lad, which is that pretty prevalent head shot? Now it's mostly head shooting, which slows your numbers down. I mean, but

your your accuracy has to go up. Sore in the head, just at the back of the nut, yeah, around the neck. But I mean historically i'd comfortably shoot three or four deer in front of me. I can't do it head shooting, you know, I'll get one and I'm sort of And the other thing is I want to make sure it's down and it stays down, because I've knocked a few

out in the time. Where you think it's a funny story, I mean, when I first made the bipod, I was with an old Scottish guy who was my mentor really was like a second dad to me, and I popped bipod down, shot this roebuck in the in the field. What you what noise you guys make for shooting like Latvians go? This is yeah whatever, I don't know, that's what I do. But anyway, between this, you guys, don't

go back. I've shot this roebuck dropped like a soccer spud, shot the other one and then he said and get back up and just got up and run off. Yeah yeah, yeah, and stayed at Mrs Meiggins's place, probably still at Mrs Meiggins's place. Yeah. Yeah. It's a crazy difference to what you guys have got so anybody out there that thinks America isn't cool when it comes to hunting, just it could be a lot worse. That's all like that. Who

thinks that? Well, I don't know, but I mean people could say if they happen to be I think it's such a great opportunity that you can get anybody to say, I can go out and I'm pointing a wonderful scene or in pictures with a rifle. To me, it is pretty epic. What's your advice to Americans? Hang on to what you've got and guard the gate. Yeah, hang on to what you've got. I mean, this is it's it's it's a fantastic thing. I think Mr Roosevelt did a

good job for you lads many years back. And uh yeah, I think it's I admire admire what you have over here. I think it's I've done three public land hunts. I mean, I'd never get this in the UK. Came in and you'll what do you call it? The passport control officers? I guess the police, aren't they he said? He said, when you're coming in from another country, US customer, US custom He said, what are you here for? And I said, I'm going to come and hunt elk and I'm going

to spend some money hunting. And he shook my hand and he said, good on you. I really wish that would never happen in the UK, that would nobody. What do you want about? Yeah, so I've had two of those sort of interesting discussions with the customs officers and I think it's brilliant. Can I ask you another way of subject question? Yeah? Do you? I don't think the thing when I look at you guys country, the thing that just bareffles me the moles Man, is are you

into the royal family? No, you're not a member of the royal now. I'm well, we were probably blood relatives if you go back far enough. They've done a bit of shagging in their time. I'm sure I can't pay attention. I've given up just listening to news. I listened to Wow Jazira, get my facts and switch off again. And I'm really not I'm not against some I think they bring a lot of money into the system, but I

think they cost money. They cost a fortune, but they also bring a lot of You guys want to come over and sit outside bucking and Palace and spank some cash. It's not like a tall moneylot. No, no, no, I think the Queen actually, I've got a lot of time. I think she's a good old bird. I think she's done. She's done her a bit. But the rest of them you don't wake up in the morning day. And to know which those guys mad who, I don't even I don't even pay any attention on. My life has been

fly fishing, climbing in a big way, and hunting. When you got into climbing, were you climbing internationally? Yeah, eyesight rock climbing because I couldn't get into hunting in a way I wanted to, so it took me all over the world night. I used to climb with a guy called Simon Yates a lot. They did a film on him called Touching the Void. That is not a born film, that's a climbing film. And he's famous because he picked

his mate off. But he's an interesting guy. Yeah. He took his Swiss translation, took a Swiss army knife and cut the fucking rope. Yeah, and then I didn't go and check to see if his mate was alive. And I completely with him on it. I mean, you've got to put yourself in that environment to judges. If you're sitting on the sofa judging somebody in that kind of environment, I think it's wrong. But he's a he's a pretty cool guy. So I've done a lot of climbing with

him in the past, Greenland him a laya um Patagonia. Yeah, and I've done a bit in the States and such like that. I'm too old for it now. And my Missy says, stick with the fly fish in the hunting, and yeah, yeah, that's great. I've got a few years left in me. Here's the thing, dude, I'm really interested in how old people are now because if sitting where I'm at did I could have another decade and still be doing what I'm loving it. I'm loving it. And

you know, I've got a wonderful team. That's Barton. There's the Queen of Spartan. She she's an Olympic clay pigeon shot, super cool. And I said, Hannah, the ship's fucking yours, right, I'm just going to want to go and play and enjoy the journey because I won't see the end game. I will be expensive to run, right, And that's what I said, And that's and they've done a brilliant job. Yeah, how many how many employees? You guys go a tiny with twelve people? Yeah, yeah, it's really small and really

women the wrong country. We need to be in the USA and we'll get hard if we did a business plan about it. I soundn't too enough to tick all those boxes. Yeah, I would love a green card? Can you get me a green card? But it's just it's no, I love what you've got. I could. I could see myself settling here in a tiny little cabin on some public land. I would really be happy about that. If an American company, Bart Spartan, does that give you a

green card? Oh yeah, I guess, I guess that would be part of the part of the part of the deal making process. Yeah. No, it's it's good fun. Yeah, you got to shoot some You need to get to Ireland as well. I know. I know Cally's drive around the book about Ireland. He's he's Irish, Yeah, I know that. And then he's got We've got a really good NTE

over there that's probably in on that Willow Mara. Yeah. Uh, And I've spoke It's been a while since I've spoken with him, but he's got a sweet said, he manages some some hunting ground over there, and then he also hunts grouse on the on the cliffs above the sea, not close over. No, he's a super cool. They're south to me. People got and chuck themselves off from all

the time. Did you ever read that there's a great essay called Legends of the Fall and it's a it's a it's a long piece of reporting about people who've jumped off the cliffs to commit suicide, but it gets into this guy you probably heard the story jumps off and lands on a ledge and then what he went through to stay alive and survive and survived. Yeah, once he hit that led, she was like, change my mind sometimes, like Jimmy Stewart right, and uh, it's a wonderful life.

But without the angel letting him see that town, you know, Mr Potter, And yeah, we gotta jump back to this guard the gate thing. I would bet that you're going to find yourself in a situation where there's a hundred and fifty thousand people amongst seventy million with firearms licenses. If all you worry about is guarding the gate, I understand. I think it is just going to be increasingly so defensive and minoritized to think in the way of just

guard what we have. On proactivity you're talking about here absolutely due the language like literally losing their rights every day in there's all kinds of examples of hunting in America, like leaning towards the European model, like absolutely absolutely. But what I'm saying is is if all we care abridge the British is this idea of um, fuck you defend what we have and like this this the picture that it pays for me is like nobody ever won anything

by being behind the gate. I'm using three. I mean by guarding the gate, well, guarding the gate. Then my meaning to that is open the doors, guys, and let everybody have an opportunity to hunt right, make it popular. Do what you're doing right, promote it. People watch your program in the UK that aren't hunters right and they love it and they're going, oh, I'd like to have a crack at that. So do what protectionism is what we're doing in the UK. It's not it doesn't work.

I'm here to prove that. But opening the doorway and say anybody Mrs Niggins, little Jimmy can go hunting. That's brilliant. Keep it up. Well yeah, and Mrs Niggins is they're going to be a proponent of the situation if you're out there being proactive and handle it. Well, take the Danish it So in Denmark there's been a guy I know, he said ten years ago, if he went into Copenhagen with a camo jacket on, it have almost got spat on. Now he goes into Denmark, it'll get five or six

people wanting to buy him a beer. And a beer in Denmark is a lot of money guys, and half of them will want to come and learn how to hunt. And it's he's a hunter. Well he do this show about Denmark. Yeah, yeah, I could link you in with him, and he's he's it's women that want to eat good food. They don't want hormone and jet they don't want people are fed up with eating craps. So suddenly venison or

wild game is becoming hugely Yeah, and and the UK lesser. So, but there are more or more women getting in hunting in the you guy as well. You know, I'm sort of a Danish film expert. Sorry, I'm a Danish film expert. Big Mad's Michelson fan like Fit Push three was that one he did Surviving in the Arctic. That was a good movie, just like last couple of years he was in the the new one where they stay drunk all

the time. Another round, another round, that's yeah, yeah, no, man, I thought about quitting my job and going to get like a PhD in Danish cinema. There's another one he's in where there's like no words and he just walks around killing people with an axe. Valhalla rising. Man, if I had to if you came to me right now, and if like God came to me right now with a gun and he's like, you gotta pick American films or Danish films, like without without a doubt, I would

pick Danish films, not a doubt. Only disagree with what you're saying. I would like to hear why. It never said why because every year, Uh, people lose is a traditional why. But go ahead. In America, in this fifty states, every year there is a reduction in people's hunting rights in this country. Uh you just we just saw it right now. The most recent glaring example is Washington losing their rights to hunt bears in the spring. Okay, Prior to that, they lost their rights to hunt mountain lions

with dogs, They lost their trapping privileges. Okay, you see it everywhere all the time, Arizona. They will not stop every couple of years. There's another thing to ban cat hunting, main banning certain bear hunting practice. So I feel that it is essential to fight for maintaining traditional use practices around hunting and fishing. A way to say that in shorthand would be, and I didn't come up with the term, I don't know who did, would be that it is

necessary to guard the gate. Now that doesn't mean that that's the only thing one should do with their time. You should be doing a half dozen different things. I would say, you should be guarding the gate and guarding the habitat. I get where cows coming from, because I think it comes back to kind of what we talked about with nu Gent, with Whackham and Stackham. It's just it's it's I know, but I'm saying it's language that sounds maybe more aggressive and than than what is like

what the main intent is. I guess like guarding the gate sounds like fuck you, you're not getting in. We're going to fight for what we've always had, which I think is definitely necessary. The semantics thing, yeah, I wasn't attacking the semantics. Okay, I have a question, like, so does anybody around this table taken somebody hunting that is at a shitty time They might be emotionally, but I have I want to tell you something I have. I

have taken plenty of people hunting who didn't go hunting. Again, yeah, I have never ever taken someone hunting who I wish they hadn't gone. Ever. So we took a vegetarian that was on our boat cooking for us in Greenland, who was a journalist and very up, but she was a vegan. Then became now she's back to meet and she'd never been hunting, and I said, come with us. So she didn't, and she had an epic time. And I love taking people out and it really enriches and doesn't it, you

know it really? And I think we've got nothing to hide, and we've got everything to promote, and if it's all done right, fucking brilliant, bring it on. Just that's gate keeping, I get it. I think if you yourself down to know but nothing to hide, and just say open the doors and that's what you guys. From my perspective, I don't know all the rules and REGs over here. Far from it. I'm no expert. But that's what you do so wonderfully. Well, just keep on promoting it. COVID kids

locked away for two fucking years. You know what damage has that done? Get them out, get him with the rifles going on at Turkey. I think it's brilliant because that's what we cannot do without jumping through huge numbers of hoops. And as I say, twenty years time, if you don't promote it, well, you could be in the same place we are, which is pretty guarding the gate. Thing Like like when I look at my son just

started hunting, you know, he's ten. When I looked thirty years out, I could easily see they're being way less opportunities for him to hunt. If we don't guard the gate. I had a person he was the gate is not enough. Listen, if if I said it's very important that I protect my kids from being abducted, you'd be like, that is not parenting. That's only part of parenting, like correct um talking about among all the other things I do as a parent, I try to prevent them from being Let's

talk about Washington's uh failure to maintain spring bear hunting. Okay, so if you waved the PAM and said, oh, okay, we got spring bear hunting, is that going to somehow prevent the attack on spring bear hunting next year? No? No, you gotta win it every time. It's not winning it every time, Like, that's not going to help, you know what, Colorado. What we want to do is be proactive enough to where these people go, oh, holy sh it, there's no

point in attacking spring bear hunting. But I think guarding the gate and saying, God, we just gotta hold onto what's ours is just not is just a short sighted, too easy way of of saying this. It does not because because the motivate the battle is shortsighted, the battle isn't. It's not a long game anymore. It's like it's a very short game. They just lost it right now. It's a very our game. There's not time right now to go change the global perspective of hunting in order to

save You're not gonna like rosy up hunting. When people in my battle, the people in Seattle are, they're gonna be like, oh, I feel kind of bad about this something. Look at the amount of anti hunting legislation proposed every year, and then look at the amount of pro hunting legislation proposed every year. And I think that is going to be a very important metric to what I'm talking about. Sitting back and letting other people dictate how we think and move because it's we don't have any time. We

got to be protective, protective, protective. Right now, I don't have any time. We're gonna let all these other people dictate how we think about our hunting and fishing because we're on the defense all the time. Is not going to win cal question Chinese, they've played the really really long long game question. Well, my daddy's telling me his favorite Chinese proverb, you have to tell me if this if us right or wrong? Many hands from an oil

Italian man, Many hands make light work questions. I've heard that, did you hear from you Chinese relatives? Americans? Rob's got a question? Robs got a question. So, just from my from the bridge perspective, why have they banned the bear hunting? Uh? Basically the argument was, we don't know enough about bears. The population studies aren't complete, and that was how the Washington Game Commission kind of like came to a null vote on the bear issue. That's not what they were

talking about. That is not what they were talking about. That was what they used to get a thing that they had already determined they wanted. So they see baby c stuff propaganda again. And which do you know what they're doing in California right now. Here's how they're trying to end bear hunting in California right now. They're trying to say, we've seen increased forest fires. Until we better understand what these increased forest fires might mean for bear populations,

we better stop hunting them. And you'll have some people be like, oh that makes yeah, because you know what their sense, you know what is in their head already. So they they're killing bears they see is an emotional thing they see people not like you have to fight. We have this ongoing debate here. We have this ongoing debate in Northern Rockies is like what about have have grizzly bears recovered to the point where they could be state managed and potentially hunted. No one argues, No one

argues have grizzly bears been recovered? What they argue is what have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? So originally is like, have you thought about what would happen if cutthroat trout collapsed? So don't don't do that until you can prove me that. Okay, here's what that would look like and in in in fact, only like nine percent of bears for a couple of weeks out of the year access cutthroat trout. Things. Okay, tell me

this one. Tell me this one. What if white bark pine blister rust was to be worse than it is now? Answer that for me. Then you go and be like, okay, well we're looking at you see like ten percent survival rates, so over time would be this and then this. Okay, okay, never mind that one. Then tell me this, right, it's never they're never questioning the actual question. So there's no science. Really, it's all science. It's all it's all science, but it's all it's it's like, you take a thing you know

you want to happen. You don't want people in Washington hunting bears in the spring. How do I do that? I can't just say I don't want them to do it. I have to go say, let me think I got it. I don't like your science. Yeah. In Washington is you have a governor that is not supportive, and they've appointed game commissioners that oppose each other, and basically it's stalled out the process in a way that did not favor

bear hunting in the state. So surely one one string to the bow here would be to better educate people on the prose of bear hunting. Yeah. And and we just went over one of the game commissioners. Yeah. And I think education is always going to be a huge part of this great part of guarding the gate. Yeah, And that's where I think we will come together. What do we say, Olier, what was at the top of the umbrella earlier? And fault and under fault is like

forgot distracted? Okay, guard the gate, under guard the gate. It's a big umbrella, legislation, education, pr Okay, And you can take what you can pick one of those spots. But you're guarding the gate. Cow, Isn't that what you just because it sounds so pugnacious, Oh, I think it just sounds weak. I'm a small man behind the gate. Don't cross this gate, you know. I want to be on the other side of the gate people and telling them this is why we do things. Okay, if this

is how it's done. If it's a branding issue, let me ask you this. If it's a branding issue, because I know that you that you that I know that you're supportive of hunting rights. If it's a branding issue, brand it better for me, Like what you would call if you had to make a rallying cry. Not around defending the environment, which I think is very important, not around defending habitat, which I think is very important. Okay, but this part of the issue, this portion of the issue,

how would you brand it? I think it's branded under being a hunter? What about the health of the hunter, the health of hunting? You know, is that offensive to you? The health of hunting? Why would that be offensive to me, Steve, because guarding the gates offensive to you? Don't like? Yeah, I don't know why you would like the sound of it. It's like a prepper mental. You got to call it something, the health, and it's what people call it. It does

sound pre man. I think clickbait is great, like people are going to click on that, but I don't think it is the thing that's going to solve our issues, right, It's like I disagree because it does though. It does when they tried to when they tried to ban when they tried to ban bear, Like the last time they tried to ban all cat hunting in Arizona, they beat it. The last time they tried to ban all bear hunting,

and why Maine, they beat it. They beat it, They guarded the gate whatever you want to call Yeah, you gotta call it something. It's like all the things you do under that umbrella. Listen when people go, oh, a hunter, that means all of this other stuff and oh, by the way, they kill stuff to eat it. But they're the ones that are the ones that are uh pro clean water, their pro wildlife, their pro habitat. It's so you're talking like more of a hunting is conservation thing

human being. I think most people would be pro hunting if they better understood it. And that's that's It's just it's easy to dislike something you don't know about. It's easy to have a little snippet of information. And I'm guilty of it. You know, I listen a little bit on your podcast or something, I think I'm suddenly an expert. I haven't heard the whole story and so many it's

human nature to judge on the knowledge. You know. If we do a better job at selling the virtues of what we do, which is pretty cool, I think that's the way to win this. I don't think that that will make It's like, here's the thing I just gonna say, I'm gonna do that thing, right, have to say my wife like, I just want to do this, and so he keeps saying the same thing. Or we're over in different ways a hunter and outdoors and whatever. There's a lot of things you need to be doing. A lot

of things you need to be doing. One of them is you need to be active in defending your rights as a hunter. You need to It's like that's a pillar or what do you call like, like, that's a plank in the platform, a plank in the platform, I would say, further word pro in there, and you need to be proactive. Oh okay, and wait for an email to show up and be like, oh god. And that's something like we didn't need to do when we were fourteen. That's not true. We should have been doing it first.

The first big sweep, the first big sweep of of trapping bands hit in in around. It was like the minute Colorado had more people in Denver and Fort Collins, it was like the tripping point. Yeah, I'm saying like in the eighties, this was not like we just weren't aware that it would need to be a thing, and it became a thing. It became him a thing, and now it's like part of hunting. It's very much a part of hunting that you need to do these things and if if you want to be a hunt because

every year there's a thing every year, just thing. I don't I get I understand, Like I feel that cal is making an aesthetic argument. I don't think he's making a substantive argument. It's aesthetics. Well, I don't think he can. I don't think it means that you somehow dismiss the threats to hunting by saying I don't like guard the gate. Correct, but it sounds like it. I I don't understand how it does. It just does because because you've embraced it.

That's why it does. I get it. I don't care about I could I could live my whole life proactivity. I could live my whole life and is be and be whatever level of effective I am, right Now I could be as a factive of for my whole life and never use the three words guard the gate. I don't need those words. In fact, it was it was no, I don't because because it didn't. It didn't convince you. And you're one of the You're one of the people I look to to like you want to look people

I look to to frame my opinions. So it didn't work on you. Now it's making me question the slogan. All right, But in America, in the political world, whatever, we find slogans like we know what the neo khan is, we know what mega means. Right, It's like there's ways of capturing there's ways of capturing a pattern of thought. What a paleocon like I say, Like that individual's a paleoconi like, Okay, I kind of got it. I could fill in the blanks about that person's belief system. Um it.

It is a it's a term for a portion of our responsibility. I don't think if you're if you're an environmentalist or conservationist, pro habitat whatever, I don't think that that then gives you cover to turn to blind eye. Two people losing hunting rights that are sustainable practices. I've had this conversation with multiple leaders of conservation groups and they'll tell you, oh, we don't want to get involved in method to take arguments. I'm like, then you're not

serving you're you're not serving your constituent. You can't pick and choose. You have to be involved in method to take fights. You can't act like you're representing hunters and anglers. But you won't get involved in the method to take argument because you want to stay above the fray and not piss off some potential donor who thinks hunting is okay, but all forms of it are kind of mean by like the general idea of it. You can't do that.

I absolutely agree with that. All right, thanks for joining rob is the I would blame where we are today on two things. One supermarket's people buy meat in packets now they don't even consider it's a living thing. I'm guilty of it. And the other thing is too many bloody documentaries on nature showing the pretty side and not the ugly side. You know, show us an elephant starving out, show us a line getting killed by young lions. We don't see that. You don't You don't go on a

Nature's Medal. I haven't watched I probably am guilty of that fact. I don't watch enough TV, but I haven't been able to find those programs. Just go to Nature's Medal on Instagram. My current, like giant looming evil is fake meat. Yeah, Like I think fake meat is going to lead to exactly what you're talking about. Right, It's like meat comes from the supermarket. Well, now meat comes from a lab A hard time getting round. I wouldn't even this is this is why you should because I

I feel like I should, but I can't. You're taking you're taking the agriculture, which okay, we have sixty million acres of what we consider to be public lands in the United States. Right, we have over nine fifty million acres of land dedicated to agricultural use in the United States.

What happens to that land that's dedicated to agricultural use for all the you know, supposed evils of let's say, like the beef industry, if that's not where beef comes from anymore, or work a shipload of condos right right? And and that is the thing, like that is like the tipping point for me of where all these open spaces where whether you think they're in production or not because they don't have a golf course or condo on them.

Are actually out there doing the best job they can in cleaning our water, cleaning our air, and you know, providing some open space for God's sake. About the fake meats thing is that they'll then say a cow requires x amount of acres that in the American West, Like, yeah, but that acreage isn't just hosting that cow exactly. Yeah, I mean it's it's hosting all the mechanisms of life

for for our food production, right like open rain, sure, yeah, pollinators. Well, in the end, we're just going to be boring a mebs that just live here and do nothing. I don't fantasy that. I like to go out hunting. I like to go climbing, I like to go fishing. I'll like to see all these fantastic places. And you know, well, I don't want to eat fight mate, because twenty years down the line, do we know what it's going to do to us? We don't have a clue, do we.

I don't care. Like, here's the thing, man about that I don't do but I don't. It's not It doesn't bother me when people do you know, Like I don't. I don't. Uh, there's all kinds of things I don't engage in, and I don't care for other people engage in it, Like I don't like a duty eting a dude eating lab me Like I said, I just can't find it in me to be offended or nervous because I'm like, I don't care if the whole world they

lab meeting. How do you dear meat that's meat raised in a lab, cultured in a lab, not Labrador retriever meat. Everybody doesn't need anything that jokes run its course over thanks to joining round, no pleasure, really enjoyed it. We're too next for you. So I'm down to Australia in a couple of weeks and then hopefully Tasmania for a few. I've never been to Tasmania. I've got to try it. Just picked up a new scott Rod. It's got to go. So be rude, not too, wouldn't it? Would you know?

They got some islands out there where the Tasmanian Devils have HIV. Yeah, yeah, they're not saying very well in a bad way. Yeah it's yeah, there's there, we got there's Yeah, it's a wild world out there real quick? Uh, first, you're serious? Yes, how did the what was the transition pathway? Oh? I have no idea. There's a really they're trying to save the Tasmanian devil. At one point they put a colony of them on to some islands um and some

sexually transmitted diseases got into that population. And yeah, I want to say one of them was HIV. Yeah, they know, they know got chlamydia right, Yeah, I'm chlamydia is a deal for for the Tasmanian Devils too. Phil, a little phil joke. What there's a thing like Koalas are riddled with clamidia right now, it's hard on them. And I was saying that was filled. That was just phil joke. Yeah, Phil, domestic sheep get a bad job. Oh it's too dark, Ignore it, stupid pilot. That are you saying that I

was hanging out with Koalas and things happened? Can you either cut it out? Can you make the joke? Couldn't think of a different joke and put it in there? And I think that's good prettys humor. There's a lot of Brits that would really find that I was one of the worst jokes, stupidest jokes I ever made. Yeah, I agree, I regret it. Okay, what can I say tell people how to go buy? What? What's the like?

Tell like if you had to pick like one asset, one thing, that would be like this captures um spartan bipods, you'd be like, I would have them, see my I actually am more sort of I really like our little tripod unit. No, no, I mean I mean that that. I mean, like, what were they so? So it's a weight issue, so really stupidly light right, very very strong. You clip them on when you need them, and you take them off when you don't. For me, that's that

bit of real estate under the rifle. You use a bipod? What so infrequently? Why do we keep it on the rifle? Yeah, Bay Park. It's a little receiver. The receiver screws into the sling swivel stone and becomes the provides the sling. We don't really know it's there, and then you need to stick the thing in your on your waistbelt hour sometimes to carry on my back pocket. They're easy to use,

they were just there. They're really an excuse of why wouldn't you take a bipod that's what we've done because there's a mountain hunter or whatever. I probably wouldn't have taken one many years ago, but that now, because it's

so light and it's there, I can. The other thing that the bipod does that many don't do well is there's a lot of canton rotations, so you can follow a target and you can can't because the ground ain't sucking even is it up there, you know, it's very unstable, and so to be able to lob your bike rifle on get a stable shot. I mean we get shiploads of people come back and said, I've just done this and done this, it's brilliant. I think we're doing something right.

We can always do it better. We're not perfect, far from it, but we try bloody hard and we're not arrogant. We listen, how long do you think I've had one of these where you've been one of the first one time? Yeah, it's got to be five years, there, isn't it? Five

or six years? I would say, and I will still The magnet on that original biopod is so strong that even though I've had a lot of experience with them, I catch myself thinking like, oh, did they add like a lock into this if if, if it ever malfunctions because you got you picked up a metal burd from somewhere. Yeah, you do come to realize there's a lot of there's a magnetism in the earth exactly exactly, and we do a military version with a locking system. I mean, they're

coming out. There's lots of stuff we're doing. But that's not my back. So uh, one more question for you, go on for our next euro report, Like, I don't I want to go h you know, hid when you're tightening your lug nuts, yeah, you don't just go around in a circle. Yeah right you yeah, you go like, uh yeah, diagonal whatever. So Madge, we're doing Europe like you're tightening lug nuts. Yeah. I don't want to go to to the next lug nut. What what consciens should

we do? I'd probably pick an Eastern European country or go right in the middle and do France. That be crazy, Yeah, but that's like your neighbor. Yeah, but are they real different? They are totally different. Yeah. Yeah, but you've got every country will give you a different flavor, you know, it's it's they're so so different. I want to do Finland. Man,

Finland would be brilliant. We've got some good finished buddies do a lot of work with sacco and ticker and there's some good there's serious lads over there and Spain stuff. What can trump with the bow in Spain? I can't wait to do it access my homeland. What country would be the closest thing to the US. It's probably not a brilliant question. Um. I tell you that Mark has some public land, right, There are a few countries that have a little bit of public land. That's probably the

only similarities there. Yeah, and there's clubs in places like Sweden. So you become a moose, you join your moose hut Tink club. And I've seen old boys in there, like they must be knocking on the door ninety and they don't want to give up their place. So there's carrying these huge packs into the middle of nowhere for their their annual moose event, you know. So yeah, it's I want to see moose get around with dogs. Yeah, they do a lot of that or there, I believe. So

it looks yeah, it looks awesome. Yeah, it's just the Arctic is a great place. Cape Kailey hunting that would be a cool thing that me and and you're trying to There's a guy called all Flint. I think link he's super cool. If I could do that's that's the one when people are like, what's the one big thing we hunt out of the country, That's what I want to do. You hunt them out of trees using a barking bird and you're shooting a full ball rifle into

a tree. I mean, that's pretty freaky for me. I would do that in the UK because I'm likely to end up going into Tumbridge Wells hitting Mrs what's her name, yeah, Mrs Niggins where they have but but up there there's nobody and that's what they've been doing for years and it's super excited. It's like deer hunting for a bird. I am above uh yeah, you know winning Rome, right, I'm not above shooting bird out of a tree with some people that shoot birds out of Yeah, no, no,

they're it's brilliant, it's really you do it. You put a lot of miles in for very few shots. But it's a really epic place to go. And then with the old male birds, they taste like shipe and they cooked, so we just do tartar and they're lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Oh they're not good cook now that the fat where some people might like them, but they're really good raw. Yeah, you know I found out that that kind of surprised me.

Is um timerg are so much better raw. Yeah, I got I got all the grousekeepers in Scotland last year eating grouse row and they said, fuck off, we're not doing that, and then after a little while said come on, just try and they I did, like eleven of them

over a few weeks. They're lovely, they really are. I wouldn't grouse again, you know that that dish um having made in a long while, but like like Chinese heart part yeah, where you like you got the broth and the stuff in it and just take raw meat and dip it. Yeah, it's like doing that for tim again. They're like cook but not really cooked. It's good, don't what's that? The mums do that? Yeah? I think so.

Whenever I have a question by anything over that neck of the woods, I just asked Aran try to answer not always right? All right, Thanks for coming on man, pleasure. It's great your report