Ep. 311: Clovis Hunters and Fluting Nipples

we got so much to like. People don't even appreciate the level work that goes into this because we're right now getting rid of all the stupid stuff we're gonna talk about to make more room for the main thing we're gonna talk about, which is like Clovis points and Bolsom points, the hell name is meeting Menton is a Turkish name. It's Turkish. It's Turkish. My dad is Turkish. He was an immigrant over here. My mom was Irish.

Shaping up as an American story. Yeah, I was born in Cleveland, and hence your hence your but and you wound up there. Yeah, And I teach them professor at Kent State, and um, I speak only one language, which is American. Didn't teach no Turkish, no Irish. But your father was born in Turkey. He was born in Turkey? Was he so he was not interested in Coloba's points as a child. No, he wanted me to be a doctor. In fact, that was the first one in several generations

of my family not to go into medicine. But you are a doctor, well medical, Yeah, I don't really contact. Yeah, okay, that's cool. I actually googled ment and before the show because I've never met anybody with that name. Do you know what it means? Yeah, it means to be well, there's lots of different uh iterations, depending if it's Arabic or Turkish. But strong in character? Wow, I dig it. Now you probably picked the best one. Though, what what would be not as Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

Strong character, strong character, but there's other negative meetings. Well, I don't know. Did you find someone strong? Is the only thing that I saw? Didn't dig too deep? Apparently I like it though. That was good enough for me. That and uh, tell everybody what your PhD is in. It is in archaeology, Um, but I also have degrees in experimental archaeology and anthropology. My specialties where I recreate ancient weapons and tools and then we reverse engineer them

to figure out how they work. Um, So we actually have the world's premier experimental archaeology lab at Kent State where we have our own ballistics range and engineering equipment and foot napping area and forge and pottery students. Yeah, it's awesome. And to come down there. Yeah, we can make any arms. Give me like an honorary degree. Yeah, a couple of honorary degrees. I like how spear is right in the title there too. Yeah, I'm experimental experiment.

Come back to my ballistics lab. So if you just type that into Google, you'll you'll find our website and we have a masters that you can apply for and and get your Masters in experimental archaeology if you're interested, and we can do you. Guys do like ceramics, leathers, whatever, whatever.

We've had musicians, We've had tattoo artists. Yeah, yeah, I mean we I mean, look, good grades are important, so stay in school kids, Um, But like what we are really interested in our skills that that are our take years to develop, right and and outside of the box

thinking that comes with those skills. Um. We can teach you the science and what a hypothesis is and how to design a test, But what we can't teach you is you know that the twenty years it took for you to learn the viola, or the fifteen years to become a tattoo artist or a hunter or a craftsman

or whatever. Um. So we welcome all sorts of people with with sort of out of the box skills to apply for our program because we can use those skills in experimental archaeological tests, because people in the past made stuff out of all sorts of materials, um, and so we want to learn all of it. We do got

to talk about a couple of things. We're gonna get into this right away, because you know, I teased this episode the other day where I saw an article you were probably involved in it saying basically the headline was like Clovis ain't all that, and it said they couldn't actually get anything because their points sucked pretty much. Do you think that's true. Well, that's the case, let's cancel the let's canceled this, and we're gonna put all the other stuff back in and not gonna talk about it.

So I think the issue is not that the cloths point suck. It's just that they're not like a stone age a K. Forty seven. They're not a paleolithic Bazooka where he basically you can wake up one day and just decide, you know what, I'm gonna get me a mammoth. I haven't had mammoth in a while. So, so were you involved in that paper? I was the first author of that. See, I wasn't up Speed of the Year that. Yeah, I know it was showing around. Um, you know that

I said that. I said, what they're trying to do is emasculate Clovis. Do you feel that you're trying to emasculate clothes? Oh no, not at all, because Clovis folks that use Clovis technology are awesome. You think they're badass? Yeah, definitely, So it's possible to love, just to stop worrying and love Clovis. Definitely. I just think mammoths, in some ways we're more badass. That's a good way of looking at it. Um, we're gonna solve. Are you prepared to do this too?

And this is something that that uh, you know, Clay and I have Clay Newcom there's one of the guys who work with He has a very wonderful podcast, um called Bear Grease, and he and I are off and on like a little parallel Paths of discovery, and he was recently doing a piece about the fulsome type site and invited a guest of his to knock the channel flake out of a falsome point? Are you prepared to knock a channel flake out of something? Definitely right here

in front of my very eyes? You know, I got these brand new glasses on. I brought goggles as well, so nothing will get in anyone. Learn me to the fact. You could buy five pairs for like ten bucks, which I feel like it's probably not good for your eyeballs, but that's what I did because I'm sickly. I had one pair and lost him, and I'm gonna have suns bitches everywhere. I don't think they're bad for your eyes. I think the other the other things bad for your wallet.

It's a racket you have, But two bucks man, looking through something to cost two bucks seems like not a good idea to me. I might even had a sticker that said two dollars on him. Well, no, I was wrong. I thought it wasn't. I realized I meant two as Oh you're up to two man, Yeah, getting bad. Quick question for Hayden, how come so many days have gone

by and you haven't fixed the artwork. I was actually gonna get in touch with you, but you were in Mexico and I was gonna ask if you wanted to have that buffalo print more professionally framed before I went and hung it up the bottom one, Okay, James j Yeah, Jamie wild Arts said, that's a custom. Yeah, that's from It's from a dream vision of mine, of of wolves eating a buffalo alive and and pulling it in pusens out and eating it while it stands. Yeah, I think

it captures the reality. And she sent that framed. The gentleman that did that buffalo school, uh sent it in a nice frame. The frame broke and so Kylie went and got it. So it's more of an issue between you and Kylie. I was expecting you to lower the one and raise the other one like you had said, you know. I mean, I didn't ask you to do it, you just offered it. I didn't want to rank them, just weird. It's all good to be here, but hey,

I'm gonna compliment saying with you. It's too late, isn't it. Well, let me go back like you look great today. Thanks, And then the top compliment is, um, tell everybody what you just made, because that was the best thing I rate. Oh well, thanks man. It was a bourbon liver and smoked trout pat a and uh that was the grease on top. That was just bacon fat, just training bacon fat. Keep it nice. It was good fat cap Yep, thanks,

really good first bourbon too. So six pounder. Uh, their liver is like what or something like that, it's some outrageous percentage of their body weight. Yeah, it was a huge. Man. I just saw it. I was like, oh, there's no way you could chuck that thing. It just looked good to eat. Now, my friends in Alaska turn me on and just taking it. They just cut it thin and you don't want to sit there and eat it for an hour, but it's kind of fun. Let's like drink

a beer whatever, crackers. They cut the liver thin and don't put oil on the panks or so much oil anyways, and just give it a little ship on a hot on a hot, dry skillet. That's bourbon. Just you should eat some of that and see if it's screws you up. They're just trailing it though on your eye or something. Yeah, no, no, no, bourbon liver. See if you have a reaction to just smears him on your eye and see if it gets

itchy or however they do it down there. I don't know, um Chester, can you super quick give us a date on the Walleye situation. Yeah, Seth and I are growing. Our excitement is just like going through the roof because we have a few very excited. We have quite a few people reaching out to us, and I wanted to have a further conversation of what getting us a boat for the summer would would look like in terms of maybe partnerships and whatnot. And uh yeah, it's some great companies.

Um you can name that boat with Steve Rino if it comes through this the fact that I'm always trying to promote it, that's a that's a decent name. But man, there's just so many other boat names out there that are the biggest thing here is there's gonna be two boats sitting idle no for the summer if they do get Walleye boat sponsorship, which means you guys get like a real boat that boat. Those other two boats are going to spend their summer as like company boats. Really.

Oh yeah, well yeah, that's that's fair. Anybody, if we get this one boat, anybody is welcome to use my boat anytime and also on the tournament season, because what if you've got to have it ready to go. I'm well, yeah, I'm saying just in general, like with all of the boats my boat. I'm sure I can speak for Seth to my boat, Seth's boat, this company boat. Like I want to get out fishing as much as I can, so anybody that wants to go fishing, Um, you know,

let's go fishing. And we've got to share the wealth. So if a if A if a prominent boat manufacturer, and that this is a race, a prominent boat manufacturer comes and says, I want in I want Chester and Seth to do this Walleye tournament series for me eater in our boat because it would give us more marketing impressions than perhaps any other thing we've ever engaged in. You're saying that, I mean you're When that happens, this boat will be Other people will be allowed to fish

this boat. Of course, And what what is the ideal walleye boat look like for in Montana? Um, well, there's a bunch of different things. For the ideal walleye boat in general is a bigger boat because a lot of no, no, like I mean like an eighteen nine glass boat. Fiberglass boat is ideal. You want something that's a little heavier.

Reason being is because a lot of great walleye fishing in this area is on bigger reservoirs, and once the wind picks up and starts ripping, if you're in a little sixteen foot boat like the one I have currently, it can actually be dangerous. So meaning like you could be trapped out there swamp your boat, um because of the waves. Is it fair to say that these major boat manufacturers are toying with your life? Chester No, because they could buy their their lack of a response, their

inactivity could actually lead to your drowning. Is that fair to say? Well, just think of the jump. I'm a pretty careful dude. The jumping A boat manufacturer who wants to get into the bigs is gonna have by picking these guys up. There's there's a design out there that's just been waiting for its opportunity to be big. Chat and South are gonna take it to the top. Mega impressions. Do you have to do anything official to become a pro. This is gonna do for walleye boats what Over the

Top did for arm wrestling. That's right. People are gonna be switching their hats around backwards saying turn it on, Brody. I don't I think I mean yet to become a pro. I think you gotta one be entered into like a pro circuit um. And it depends on the series like bass turning and so I know, like there's to be considered a pro, you have to have a certain amount of winnings. There's like sponsorships involved, there's like pro tournaments that you So you guys got to work your way

up to that. Yeah. But my goal to this whole thing is like I don't need to be a pro. I want to become the best angler that I can be. And catching wile and figuring while out is a very good way to become a good angler in multi Like if you can figure out how catch while you can be a pretty damn good bass angler. Um things like that. So it's talking at my heart strings. Man, I'm so excited, especially now that Seth doesn't have to that he can

do all the tournaments. Oh, because did we get the wedding adjusted yeah, because do you hear what we found out then in Montana it's one of very few states, a couple of states where you can have a proxy. You don't need to be at your own wedding. Um. Problem solved. Some people see problems, we see solutions. We're gonna get back to this stone point stuff. Hardcore. H Oh. You know what I was. I flew today and I was, you know a Salt Lake City has those huge I

had to fly home this morning. Salt Lake City has those enormous escalators. Like the amount of people that don't walk on there and just stand there. It's like, you're you're in such good shape. You're in such good shape that you don't even need to get this little bit of exercise. That's how going to shape you're in. That's what you're telling me. It sounds like you were about to miss your flight. Huh. I was, But I was like, also,

everybody's so well exercised they can afford to just stand here. Well, I don't even think it's that. It's like very rarely in an airport for me, am I not needing to get to another place, and so when the escalators there, I'm not like, oh this is doing it for me. If I just keep walking, I'm there fast. It's meant to like, Yeah, it's into make your efforts pay off even better. Yeah, like the moving walkways standing on Oh

my god, it drives me nuts. Uh to go positive for a minute, Um, brodie, Now are gonna talk about something for the until people can't stand here about it anymore. We're gonna start talking about it right now. So, uh,

when I had children. When I began having children in two thousand ten, my boy was born, Um, the it really hit me like, Um, how do you sort of like as a person that grew up um outdoors hunting and fishing and had like what I regard to be like a very sort of productive educational relationship to um nature and outdoors. And I had kids, and right away I'm like, God, like I want to like do that

for them. And it's hard. Um. And even back then, I thought, someday I want to like do a book about kids in the outdoors, which is largely about it has a lot to do with just the anxieties that come from having kids and and wanting to engage them around nature and just loking hard it is. Yeah, it's hard, hard to get everyone out the door. That's the hardest part by far. I mean, you know, the mittens and cleaning up dirty kids and stuff along the way, and

dealing with cold kids is difficult. But get them out there's the hard part. Uh. I remember one of the things I remember when my kids are really little, taking them up to our fish shack, and I was trying to uh I was. I was imploring my wife, like, we're not gonna bring a ton of clothes. They got to learn to wear them dry. They got learned to wear them dry. You get it wet, you just keep it on. Like I were to see in close seven days in a row, it gets wet, you wear it,

it dries, and you don't need all these clothes. So she I finally get her convinced to go on this dry program, and we get there and my little boy, my littlest boy at the time, wades out to his belly button out in the salt water and ships his pants, and so I'm being like, she's like, yeah, my wife's like, where are this dry? It's like, everything is so hard. The amount of times I've seen your youngest kid get

wet is unbelievable. It's about every time. You know what my goal is, I'm gonna go get wet, whether it's jumping into ice hole, taking his shoes off with his socks in the mud when we're salmon fishing. Um, yeah, we've laughed a hundred times about last year ice fishing. I can remember my birthday ice fishing last year and my daughter skating up her her brother are in the shanny and her riding up on ice skates. Sand I

got bad news and there isn't any good news. Matthew felm the whole both feet, both feet into one hole, which is like, seems impossible fish shack when your oldest broke his arm right immediately before the trip, and so you have a kid, he was young kid in a cast with the very serious warning of do not get this wet. And I mean it was like maybe six It was less than a professional bull ride for sure,

maybe maybe six seconds. Right. It's like we're unloading stuff at the fish shack and you turn around and he's just like elbowed and you're like, huh that all where that draft in the in the book I'm about to plug. I actually talked about that because, um, my wife not coming from outdoors background always thinks that everything UM that I take the kids to is like dangerous or used to like, oh, guns are dangerous, hunting is dangerous, wild and moles. Every time my kids wind up in a

UM emergency rooms because of something she did. Got him a swing set, broken arm, got him a lego kit, Stitches in his head from falling a lego, got him a scooter, Stitches in his head from the scooter. Every time, it was like, that was your thing, all my super dangerous shit. No one's ever had any problem just getting wet. No, they get wet, she does something for me. They break a bone, didn't you guys get a little visit from

like Protective Services at one point? Man, Like they're like, so, yeah, when we got hurt and we weren't looking, and they kept keeping us there and dragging it on, and eventually they come in. And this guy comes in and the first thing out of his mouth is like, um, what are the strengths and weaknesses of your marriage? I'm like, are you kidding me? Man? Yeah? It's like you gotta

heard his leg uh jumping off the couch. So anyways, a but for preorder now, Brodie and I've worked on this book, A bunch um outdoor kids in an inside world. It was it was a it was a project. Man. It's a veil preorder all over the place. Get it now. It's a release date May second or something like that. And it's it's it's an argument. It's inside. It's an argument for and insights into getting your kids, as we

put it, radically engaged with nature. That's awesome. I have a six year old and I've been worrying about this quite a lot, just getting him outside because he's on TV and video games and all the sorce. I got him a dog, and now he's outside with the dog all time, walking him all this sort of stuff. So little victory, but it's you know, you gotta keep that, keep that. It is a battle, but it's one of the most important things I think as parents we can

do today is get kids outside. Yeah, I think so. I think for both in terms of engagement with um, like just in engagement with ecology and engagement with environmental issues and also just having like a little grit and girl man, Like I don't know, I see value. And I'm not saying it's it's the only way. There's like many paths too, like many paths too. You know, I know I have great friends who raise kids in Manhattan and their kids are brilliant, compassionate, wonderful, right, Like, they

don't do really anything outside. I'm not saying that that's the only way to get somewhere, but especially a situation like me is where that's the stuff that I value and I want to like take my bag of tricks and apply it to parenting definitely, you know, because like I want them to see people doing things that they're passionate about. So it's like, and I see people all the time, like everybody names your kid Hunter. That's what they're hoping for. But you know, we've been outside for

six million years. Mean, so might stop now exactly bail with pre order? Now? That was a spirited pitch. Oh, Brody and Cal both out something with a tag and it can you guys explain? Did you know that he got some of the tag? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I caught a tagged yellow perch the other day through the ice down on Late Cascade in Idaho, um which is a marketing term, right it's it's a reservoir. But nevertheless, you what do you think they should have called it cascade? Reservoir.

They should call it jumbo perch. Yeah, I mean thirty one thousand. We'll put it this way. There's one tagged fish for every thirty seven acres of that lake, which is just yeah, I mean I was so excited, so excited. It was just I mean I love that stuff. And it's uh, you know, it's like getting a tag you're a banded duck or banded goose or something like that. Didn't have a like a phone number on it. Yeah. Yeah,

So it's a coated wire tag. You know. It's not like a tracking tag or transmitter tag or anything like that. But yeah, you can call in, Um did you just

call in? Act? I called on on the Unfortunately, it's like automated, you know, um, and there you know, and then they're doing like the normal biologist thing of like while we got you on the line, we're gonna try to extract even more information from you, you know, like how far did you drive, did you enjoy your experience, how would you rate your experience, did you like the fish,

how would you rate your fish? How far did you drive? Oh, I mean it's because they wanted to know, like what your level of commitment was, right, It was a long I mean a long haul get into that uh Cascade reservoir. Uh did you say the tag? Do you to keep it? Yeah? I mean I had every intention of keeping the tag, and I put it in the front pocket of my bibs. And I must have you know, I had other fish and stuff in there, and I must have been around

the gin around. You're keeping your fish in the front pocket of your bibs. I was keeping just the tag the front pocket of the bibbs because it was very obvious to remember which fish it was, because it was a fifteen and a half inch two plus pound perch. So you put the tagged fish in the pocket, or you pulled the tag out and pulled the tag out as if did at that point you had a bunch of fish. I'm gonna keep it. Yeah, yeah, hearing out of it. But I have I have all the data

because you did get it. You did get it. You lost it after getting everything you needed. Don't you think it will turn up though? Yeah? I hope. So I looked looked all over. Um, but yeah, that, I mean that was super cool, like what what what are the odds? And the fact that it was a huge fish. Um, And really just you know, like looking on the map looking for old river channels and stuff and poking holes through the ice. There wasn't anything like super crazy about it.

You know. It's just of serious luck of the draw thing. I don't win anything, so that was fun. Um. Yeah, did you get any information on that fish, like as far as like how old it was, uh, not age because it was tagged as a grown up right right, Yeah, but it was tagged a year prior, basically a year prior at fourteen point six inches in length, and we measured it at fifteen and a half inches in length.

So the odd anomaly there is that it grew really really fast in comparison to all their other fish, like the rates of growth or are real slow, which I pointed out to cal Um. It's actually a negative commentary on his angling skills, right, it's like that fish because their fish everything. Um. The one of the most amazing things that I learned down there was that they've taken a lot of pictures of the growth rings on their

gill play. They're gorgeous, um and on. So the odo lith that earbone that you typically read about folks aging fish off of, well on yellow perch the um the big gill plate with a little spike on the back. Actually you can age as well, and you just boil that thing out, scrape the meat off of it, put it underneath the um like backlight it and you should be able to see some rings. If you can get a microscope, you can see all the rings. Uh. And that's that's cool. We should mess around with that a

little bit. Get get set up for that. Yeah, be real fun. You're gonna get it soft, you're gonna eat it. What is h already ate it? Oh? You know that might have been a good idea to get it stuffed with it. So here's the funny fish stuffed is all a lie. They don't have to fish. They don't stuff to fish, which is fine because then you can release it if you want to. You can get the measurements and pictures and release it and right listen, man, I see what you're getting at. It's a lie. It's a lie.

It's it's a big fish tail. But so here's the funny thing. Like I sent that picture to Chester and Seth and like, well that'd be something to consider actually mounting. And I was like I kind of would be neat and what would that be Like, well, Um, I'm talking with biologistic fishing game Jordan Messner and he's like, yeah, hey, the Idaho Fishing Game. And he's like, hey, swing in to the office. We have a reproduction of the world record catch and release perch. And I was like, all right, sweet.

So going to the office, I'm looking at all the mounts on the wall. Key back up. Okay, why were you on the phone with him? I had to return his hockey skates. I borrowed his. Uh. And while okay, and while arranging this hockey skate drop off, he says, you ought to ye, I got you. Yeah, because I was skating. We were conversing with him about the tagged perch. No, I actually called him. He was on the ice about a quarter mile away from us, and he zipped over

and checked it out. It was awesome. Um and uh and we got into a bunch of arguments on stuff, and you know, it was very educational. But um in the office looking at all the amounts and stuff, right, And he comes in and he's like, yeah, there it is. And I've been looking at this fish and it didn't strike me as abnormally large or anything. He climbs up on the wall, pulls them out down. I was like, yeah, here,

check it out. And you know, at the end of the day, it's just a fifteen and a half inch fish. You know, it's not like I got one of those in my pocket out of context. Out of context, it's just like not that impressive. But when you're out there perch fishing and pulling perch up through the ice. I mean I was on cloud night. I was incredibly excited, stoked. Oh my god, the mouth comes up and you're like, I can put my whole thumb in that. You know,

it's hard. It's like a little bit harder to talk about big perch because a big perch is still a small fish, and so people are thinking they're going to see a big fish, but they see what to them is a small fish. And then you have to go into this whole thing about how it's actually a big perch. Right, it's like like the keys white tail, right, Well, actually that's not like yeah exactly, this is no. This is a very big version of a very small thing. And the thing you get all the time is uh, is

that your first ear? Yeah? But it was cool you got a tag Kyle help. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't notice it was tagged until I was cutting her ivory's out because it was it was pretty small. Um. Oh yeah, oh, here's the tag and put my spectacles back on. Metally your tag? Um, so that was that was pretty interesting. They leave you, They leave you a phone number on there to call. You're you're in violation of the law right now, No, I'm not to the biologists because it

does return to MF W P on the reporter right now? Um, are they letting you keep this? He didn't ask for it back? What what's the stats on the cow? She was tagged on February first, two thousand and fourteen, so that was eight years ago. Tag three miles from where I shot her, so not all that far for an elk um and she was I think he said she was two and a half years old when she was tagged, so she's going on eleven years old. Did you feel bad here in that? No? She was a big ass cow,

I'll tell you that. Um her Look how look at how worn down her eyes? Oh yeah, man, she's knocking on Heaven's door there, yea, but choose in great shape. She was huge. Wow, look at that she the lead cow. No, She's like, there's about a hundred of them, and she was like, it's a long story, but I've never seen an ibady look like that. I know, kid, you pretty much pull those things out with your face down to Calahan,

has he seen that yet? Know? They were anchored in their fine And no, she wasn't a lead cal Chester. She was just one of a hundred. Um, there was an albino in the herd, which was real, real cool to see. The biologist how we didn't shoot that one because it was surrounded by a hundred other elk. This one was off to the side, you know. Yeah, these ivories are not like ivories that much different than their actual like milk teeth that you'd pull out of it.

Well yeah, those milk teeth on calves are real narrow and pointy. Though. Um the uh that's awesome. Oh you were asking about the albino. Yeah, no interest and shooting. The biology knew about that elk. Oh yeah he said he knew, he knew that. That heard that demystifies it. Yep, yep. Um. Remember we covered dismember. There was like a famous moose in New Hampshire. Something was it was kind of pie alder albino and a guy got it. Everybody got pised

because they've been seeing it around. I mean they see all of them around. They because remember that one. If I only seen one and it was albino, I don't know what i'd do. But um, yeah, I learned some interesting stuff that heard that I shot her out of The biologist said, there, it's triple what he would like to see, the numbers in population. Yes, I'm just telling you what an actual scientist told me. But but but but I know a few of those fellas, and um,

that's great. But as I always ask, like according to who, Okay, I'm going to give you an example, like because like he said, the next herd to the south, which you cannot hunt. It's in the same unit, but there's a boundary that you can't cross. That heard, you can't hunt because there much lower than what he'd like to see. That they consider just driving something scurry and something over the well, maybe air dropping him in there. But you know,

I thought it was an interesting example. Capacity thing or is it a social issue. I'm sure it's a combination of both. This heard, he said, spends the majority of its time on private Land, so that social part might be part of it. Listen, I'm not down on the social thing. I'm just saying like, well, I hear, like, you know, you're this kid that would call me. I

can't figure it out. There's this kid that reached out and uh, he's he wanted to interview me, like he his state doesn't he's a high school or his state doesn't have a black bear hunt. Maybe he's from Connecticut, I can't remember. And he wrote a really nice letter that Corey forward aloto me stay in the black bear hunt. He's making like a class he has to do it. He hasn't make a documentary for his class in high school, and he wants to make a documentary by how they

should have a black bear hunt. And he wanted to interview me, and like his documentary focus is going to be that if we don't have a black bear hunt, there will be too many black bears and it will cause all these problems. And I said, call me, you're barking up the wrong tree. And he hasn't called me. Like that's not gonna like, no one's gonna be like

we're just overrun with high school. I was gonna say, no, high schooler wants to go rewrite there, or maybe you just I'm just saying like you're not like like that's not a convincing argument to people. Like people aren't gonna picture they're not. It's like there's a hundred other ways to approach it, but approaching like that all the time, it's like, oh, if we don't, we're gonna be overrun

by bears. It's like probably not thought it was interesting that it was a case of like heard by herd management, like yeah, I got you. I'm just like, it's just people I think jump a little bit. I used to just accepted at face value over like over objective, overpopulated, and but once you get into you realize this is just a million factors that going like according to who is like, automobile insurers have a perspective on deer numbers, right, uh,

Triple A has a perspective on deer numbers. Agriculture has a perspective on deer numbers. Um subdivisions with a lot of expensive what do you call it landscaping have a perspective on deer hunter deer numbers, and it doesn't always mirror the perspective of a deer hunter dear, I'm trying. I'm saying, dear, dear, numbers. That's all, you know, all of this. Um, I got one hot fact I forgot to throw in there. On the perch. How how old is perch? How old is the oldest perch? Years old?

Oh that's high. I hope people do that to me seven anybody else? Twelve nine six, So prior to late Cascade, which now has I think two world records and and all the Idaho state records. Um, there's a perch age and I think in Wyoming and nine years old now, like Cascade is just like in this crazy zone of like they're positive these fish are dying of old age. I'm not sure at what rate, but their oldest recorded perches fourteen just a special perch place. Are they worried

about that fishery crashing? You know how perch populations can. So it's gone through several down down periods. Um, But it's like what's considered a crash type of thing, and and a perch crash is typically like that missing age class and and how strong the next age classes or the previous age class was to where anglers will notice it. Yeah, so sometimes it will change like you'll have a fishery with like big fish like they have there, and then

something happens and it's just a lot of little fish. Yeah, you boys might have to take off. That's a good one. Speaking of records, that was a good cran. Speaking of records, a guy wrote in about he's curious, like he was disappointed to see that in Boone and Crockett you can't enter a squirrel just like a bear. And he's like yeah, but he's like, well, how would you measure it? Anyways?

And I was going to explain him that anything that doesn't have antlers is just skull size, So like black bears, there's nothing to do turkey. Yeah, but I think I think that that's a I don't mean to be Debbie Downer to day, but the way they do turkeys, I think is a real stretch, because what do you like about it? Because it has multiple beards, you get to keep measuring all the beards. If you had multiple antlers, you'd keep measuring the antlers. All right, Okay, explain that.

Let me do this first. With the exception of turkeys, everything I'm aware of in the mammal Okay, let me put it this way. Everything I'm worried of in the mammal kingdom, and the mammal world is not a kingdom? Is it? What is it? And may amals uh? If it doesn't have antlers you just measured, it's Lengthen with the skull, I don't think I can argue with that. So to be consistent, I don't think he's the one.

Can he should they measure the tail the weight. I think it's just it would just wind up needing to be like if you're gonna do a fox squirrel world record, I think you have to keep it clean, and you do length of skull plus width of skull, and it's just like that's how mountain lions bears have Lina's. It's like all that stuff done that way. So I don't

think you could break from that. Spencer brings up the very good point that they came up with what he's after for squirrels in the Turkey world, so he'd be like he'd be like weight of squirrel plus inches of tail, YadA, YadA, YadA. You've got a personal stake in this, right, No, I thought you did. I thought you had some kind of I have the South Dakota Archery real grand record. Okay you do. Yeah, it's a triple bearded bird. I shot in so that's a non So you've done what I'm

talking about where you keep measuring the beard. Yeah, I like scoring them. It's just like fun man. So off top my head. I think you figure out the spur length on both legs and then you take that times ten. So if you have one spurs one inch, okay, so you got you know, two, you got twenty. I think you take all your beard lengths times too sure, and then you have your weight, which there's no modifier on.

Well why not why not be like in times by three. Well, I think my guests an event to scoring, it's too uh like make the numbers fairly yeah, because you have a twenty two pound turkey who has two inch spurs. Now you have twenty plus twenty two and then say you have a nine inch beard, times to eighteen, so they're fairly like we're trying to give equal weight and all these things because some guy could shoot. I get it, because you should have Turkey is a little eight on weight.

He's been rotten, hard, has been eaten, but he's got like big limb hangers, big hooks and that guy is gonna get screwed. I like this guy's idea. Um, I think one issue would be overall weight. There's not a lot of critters you shoot where they may lose weight because of like where your twenty two bullet passed through or something like that. Should you hear my my turkey competition story? So I was enrolled in uh some town by Doug drn and Dug durn doesn't like people from

this town. It's ah el Roy. Yeah, this is a whole funny story. That's what I feel like. I told the story though there the drunkards of el Roy had a turkey derby, and uh, I'm mostly joke about Dog's distaste for el Roy. Doug talks about Elroy like it's the other side of the planet, but it's like about a five minute driveways. What's so funny about it because he's like talks like, oh my god, over in el Roy.

I'm like talking, it's right there to Wisconsin. So anyways, and now I was signed up for the Elroy Turkey Derby and it just goes by way of bird. But I gutted my turkey, so I bring it up. It was a huge turkey and I bring it down and I was like leading, and then I got beat by some other guy, but not like a gut's worth of lead. He beat me by like not a gut, like a

full gut amount. Days later, we stopped in that bar because this guy hunt with had to go find this old man who is always down there, and we're going and they're still sitting there the turkey talking about it. Days later. What an idiot. Yeah, I go snoop to tail. That's a big thing. Now it's a hunting public. Guy started that. You lay your turkey flat, and it's the

long bird measurement. You you stretched the snoot out as far as possible and then you go from the tip of that all the way to the furthest tail feather. I think it should be this. It's just like it's stretched spur length. It's spur. It should be subspecies, but it's not actually a subspecies, but subspecies m hm spur length because rios have big freaking hooks, right, and so you gotta like break it down like that, and you draw a line like like you're measuring the tying on

a deer. You draw a line down the leg as though the spur were not there, and then take a micrometer and Marry measure the spur and stop all this multiply and everything. But why aren't there non typical? Right? So shouldn't your beard your triple beard bird being non typical? And then you guys would do your thing where you do with I feel like net or gross um. Alright, lastly, when we're talking about before we get into the you know the main thing stolen tool technology, Indian arrowheads? Um,

do you guys? You guys don't say that, do you No? Usually we say projectile points or you know, it depends on time period two. So when you are a little kid, did you say Indian arrowheads? Yeah? You know. We just got this book. I sent it to so Hank type spencer. We had a we had a great guest on, a

guy named Taylor keen Um. He's a Native American activist, and we had no I want to want to call it a debate, but but we kind of debated the two perspectives of the perspective of someone who sees a Indian arrow headland on the ground and puts in his pocket and wants to go put in his desk drawer for his own enjoyment and personal you know, aggrandizement whatever h versus the perspective of it being like that's a

thing of someone else that has value being there. Um, it could tell a story that needs to be left in place, and so leave it put out of respect for the people who made it and out of respect. You know. We had this whole debate someone on Yanni recently. Someone sent Yanni this book. I sent to Taylor Keen just has a joke a text message about the books. It was like, um, the idea, how do I identify and value Indian arrowheads? It's like it was like a trading it was like a trading book. Oh yeah about

arrow heads? Like worth about you know, artifacts around the world are sold and all over the place. I think, after guns and drugs, antiquities is the third most profitable trade illegal trade. Yeah, okay, sounds way cooler than the other two. So so talk about what you're gonna talk about. We have an Instagram message for someone, says, dear Spencer. My name is Declan and I'm a freshman in high school.

I was wondering if you had any ideas for a science for your project related to meet eaters four verticals. I was just looking for an idea that is out of the box and not basic, like which plant gross taller? So what do we got for him? That's a basic science idea too, Declin? Yes, what dec where we dealing with? Decline Harrington Declino Murphy says he's a minor. I don't know that. I should say probably don't know. I just want to get in origin just so, And you're bringing

this up because of it? Well, this seems like a room that could I d ate some good science. Well I thought maybe you were thinking like a related to stone. Maybe that'd be good. Knives the poop knives be great. I think if he wants to sing, would be really good. But then debates already been settled. Science needs to be replicated. So well, yeah, just something around poop knives. There you go as way into this can, Well, let's come back to it. I gotta I gotta handful of ideas. Um,

he could do it. Here's one. How about he does this? Where's he live? I don't know? Mhmm. Let's say he lives in a squirrel area. Go out and start weighing squirrels, measuring their tails, and then measure their skull and see if it's like inverse or not. See if it's like a good correlation. If he's like, hey, man, it turns out big as squirrels a big long tails at big gas skulls. So that's what you're barking up the right tree,

so to speak. Uh. If he turns out that like huge squirrel, huge tail, little teeny skull, then we might know that that's not that'd be a good project for him. There you go, What were you thinking? I think there's a lot of stealth around cooking for opportunities. Um. Like one one thing you hear all the time, especially with your Louisiana crawfish pond friends, is that like if you cook a crawfish and it comes out with a straight tail, it's a bad crawfish to win in the pot dead.

But I don't think that's true. That's something you can easily test and solve a mystery for a lot of folks. I think there's also something with like um eggs that if you have a chicken egg and if it sinks, I think it's it's old, right, or if it floats it's it's fresh. I don't know the exact Yeah, but here's the thing, man, people already have done all that stuff, but they haven't done the squirrel head thing. Okay, I bet people have solved all the mysteries that this Science

Fair freshman class goes after you anyway. Oh, so you're saying they're all gonna take a cheap shot, probably a lot of paper mache volcanoes. You got any idea scale? You know, back in my Science Fair days, there's literally like a book of Science Fair projects. Right, so, um,

science doesn't need to be repeated. I would just from the bird hunting this year, I think it would be great to get some new definitive uh data on penetration on different um makeups shotgun shells, Like he's like all ounce or two and three quarter inch for this kid man? Why not shooting into what? Oh he can come up with anything, phone books? Oh, I see right, and just look at like penetration of bismuth versus tongue, stend versus lab. It's on parents day, he's on the parking lot. Boom,

go ahead, step on up, take a shot. You know something that non hunters are easily fascinated by is trail cameras. If you're ever watching a show on like Animal Planet or like something on Discovery where they're looking for bigfoot and they're using a trail camera. They don't call it a trail camera. They're like, yeah, camera trap. Um, that's motion activated with night vision or whatever. You could just

like this, dude, want an easy way out. You can just go through some trail cameras and be like I took a survey of the mammals on this piece of public land in central Hio or whatever where trail cameras are now illegal. Yeah, but trail cameras aren't illegal in any states for not hunting purposes. Yeah, but if you're hunting big foot, that's true. By way of introduction, by way of introduction to your work, do you mind addressing

the poop knife quickly? No, definitely. Um. The reason why I went into archaeology and anthropology was because when I was a teenager, I heard on NPR the Diane Reem Show. Uh the boy, Yeah, that's she's a throat. She does there's a cancer. No, I don't think it is what I'm talking about. I had a friend referred to her

always as dying ream. That's just horrible, horrible out. I was listened man imagine that being that imagine being in this situation that she's that she's toughed out, like she has to be in this situation of being that you're like you are your voice. America recognizes your voice, that know, you are your voice of authority, and then you're stricken with the health issue that impacts your voice. It's like almost like Shakespearean. You can imagine how cool I was

as a teenager listening to Diane Um. You know, yeah, did you tell all the guys on the school bus about there? Definitely and definitely it was you know. Um. But Way Davis who's an ethnobotanist and anthropologist, was on the show promoting his new book, and the book it was called Shadows in the Sun. Um, really great book

about ego tourism. And uh. He told the story that one of his Inuit informants told him, Um that allegedly his grandfather in the nineteen fifties and his family was being moved off of their ancestral homeland in the Canadian Arctic, and he didn't want to go because it was his land. So his family was trying to convince him to come in the igloo and they would leave the next day for the new reservation or area to go, and he stood outside the igloo and protests and said I'm not

coming in. And day turned to night and got pretty cold in the Arctic, and they took away all of his tools and all of his utilities to convince him, like come inside. What are you gonna do? You have

got nothing, You can't survive out there. So aged. So the story goes, uh, this guy defecated into his own hands, and as his feces froze, he honed them into the shape of a knife, and he sharpened that knife with the spray of saliva, and he called over a dog and murdered it with this knife, butchered it, turned the dog's rib cage into a sled, used the dog's hide to harness another dog, and he sped off into the night. So I heard this story as a teenager, and I

was like, oh my god, that's amazing. I want to study anthropology and learn about technologies of of indigenous people. And well, little did I know, twenty years later I found the Kent State Experiment Archaeology Lab and where we can make any artifact from the last three million years of human technology, And it was a few years ago, I was thinking, well, what's gonna be our next lab project? And I remember that story and I remember texting my co director Dr Michelle Beber, and I said, Hey, I've

got a great idea for our next experiment. She's like, really what? And I'm like, do you remember that story that way Davis told about the Inuit? And I just left it at that, no no comment back, no comment back. Then I see the little text dots. Oh my god, is what you texted back. So we decided to test this idea that you can make a functional knife out of your own frozen feces, and uh, you guys have to use your own faces. So I went on an arctic diet for two weeks and uh, yeah, that's what

I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And uh and what was that high end protein in fat? Yeah protein, lots of salmon, uh, lots of other fish, fatty meats. Um. I do have a kid. So occasionally there was a couple missteps. It took had to finish the apple sauce once and his macaron cheese. But we actually in the paper, the published paper, we detailed the whole diet for thee and uh, then I started to produce the raw materials

and you know, it's it was amazing. And it was a process because you find that the change and diet had a change change the b m oh yeah definitely. Um. Also, just like my overall movement, Yeah, well my whole attitude to like, I just became real depressed. And I think it was because you know, we've got this awesome lab at Kent State where we can shoot stuff and create any artifact out of metal or ceramic or stone whatever.

But instead of being in my awesome lab, I'm at home pooping in a bag um, which I then would store in my freezer because we needed statistically valid sample sizes and so I produced a lot of raw materials, saving them all up um. And so uh we then got dry ice negative fifty degree centigrade, so really cold temperatures to make sure we're replicating the Arctic, and uh started making this stuff. And um, we got some pork and try to to butcher the pork with these knives.

And we gave ourselves some advantages too, because I really want to be able to say, like that ship cut it. But so there was no hair on the pork, right because that could mess up your blade like the dog would have. Also, the pork was refrigerated, it wasn't warm like a freshly killed dog would be, you know, because I would melt your knife. Um, and I had a file in some cases to sharpen my my ship as much as I could. Did other people have to mess

with it too? Well, we actually replicated our own experiment. Dr Beber repeated the entire experience with the Western diet where it was funny because she didn't know she was going to repeat it and she had just happened to have Wendy's twice that day. So in the published paper we had to detail, you know, the fact that in history so frosty, yeah, get that. You know, I think spaghetti too. But the point is when we went to

cut this stuff, um, we could not cut anything. Just streaks, right, just a different source of streak, but this time on the meat, and uh, just the friction from trying to do the butchery melted the blade edge. So where do you think actually happened that the Well, so there's a couple of hypotheses, right, Um, what I actually think happened is and we this has been documented time and time again when you have anthropologists and ethnographers studying indigenous people.

Sometimes indigenous folks just get sick of getting studied, and uh, you know, they sometimes will just make up stuff to entertain themselves or to just have a laugh. And yeah, and and that's been documented. Um and so it's possible that that person told Wade Davis just a story and sort of as went into the literature. Who knows, maybe it did happen, because the conditions of reality are different than the conditions in the lab and we've got to

balance those two things. Um. So I get it. The evidence laboratory wise does not support the idea that you can make a knife out of your own frozen crap. And my favorite quote from that paper was it was like a brown crayon. It was like a brown cran um. Also, too, we we managed to slip in there that I regularly produced the materials for several weeks. There's a bunch of jokes. We want an Ignoble prize. Does that mean so the

ignobles ignoble? Yeah, he doesn't get it now, so the Nobel prize and then ignobles like shame type in going to your computer, type in ignoble. But it's uh for science that first makes you laugh and then makes you think. So it's the funniest science. And so in we won the Ignoble for for that study. So it's cool because you know they're presented at Harvard and you get to

go there. Did your university get maddy about it? So it's funny because we did all the ethics and stuff before we did the study, and uh, I remember sitting down with the director of research and they were like, you know, we're we're we got mixed feelings about the study that you want to do because you know, when you type into google Kent State, one of the first things that comes up is the May fourth shootings soldiers

and Nixon. Yeah that's right, Yeah, play that ship bill, And so they were like, this study might change that, but it's a shame that it's going to be Kent State poop knife. Um. And so man, I can see like, dude, which you know that's a real that's a real question. Yeah, and well we we did it. So now how I

founded the paper. I was researching for an article on Peter Fruakin, who claimed to have been stuck in a blizzard in the Arctic and he crawled underneath his sled to survive, and he was there for thirty hours and a blizzard was so bad that a wall of ice formed around him. And he said, in a moment of genius, he defecated, turned that ship into a chisel, and then broke his way out. That was the only way he could escape this little coffin that had formed around him.

And the only information online available to help solve whether or not this could have really happened was your paper. Well and and so that's really interesting because in peer review and then afterward colleagues and stuff said, well, you know, Peter Freakan allegedly, you know, made his chisel, so your your knife paper has to be wrong. And we said, well, knives and chisels are different. And also to the substrates cut um meat versus snow that those are different variables.

So the Peter Freakan story could be true and the Inuit story could be false. They're just this is variables and science. Now. I think something else to considered with Peter's story is that he was the only witness to it. He talked about, I think for the first time in his autobiography, The Vagrant and Viking Um, he had a personality that wanted to attract fame. He was like sort of a low key Hollywood socialite. He was in movies, he directed movies. He would go to Hollywood parties and

throw actresses over his head. Um, like he really liked the attention. He would on the game show the sixty four thousand dollar Question. Um. So the question though, is like, if you've got all these options to make up how you broke out of an ice strip, right, why would you go with poop chisel? Because he maybe he had heard that story that you had heard, well, Peter Freak,

and that her peppened. So this story happened in the nineteen fifties, it would be he would also in your list there, Spencer have to be wearing garments that lacked any sort of pockets or carrying capacity whatsoever. I mean, there's just not from the second I get dressed out of the shower, there's not a situation that I'm in where I don't have something in my pocket that would be better than a poop chisel. Yeah. So, based on your paper and Peter's personality, I don't think he did it.

I'm not buying him. The high schooler needs a project. There you go, yeah, yeah, needs to replicate that you replicated the other thing. He needs to replicate that if we knew where this dude lived, to be real helpful, it's like Florida where it's really hot Florida. That would be the worst poop knife of all time. So if you want to read the article that I had reference his paper, it's fact checker did explore Peter freaking save his life with a poop chisel. Can find that on

the meteor dot com. I wrote it in one great plod. Yeah, the the decline name. I'm still thinking he's like Irish bunny camp be in the sun too long, probably in northern climates. Okay, trying to think out. There's a million ways to get into I'm trying to think of how best to get into it. Let's get into it like this. We was talking about the poop knife. Explain, um, why explain the question about Clovis and go as broad as you want, meaning um you can kind because there's the

thing we've talked about extensively, is like the blitz Creeg hypothesis. Okay, so however you want to set it up, walk us into the paper. You recently did about did these boys really go out and make stone projectile points and take down how big or mammoths real big? You know, like two tons? Oh yeah, easily? Were they chiseling little stone points and knocking mammoths down? Alright? So why is that? Why is that a question that sort of goes beyond

just simple curiosity. So mega fauna, right, thirty five genera of mega fauna when extinct at the end of the Plaza scene, so about ten thou years ago, um. And the big question is whether or not humans in North America had any role in those extinctions. And that speaks to two larger philosophical issues about you know, our nature and balanced with you know, ecosystems and all this sort

of stuff. So people that use Clovis technology were some of the very first people on the continent and and we know Clovis spoke state to around thirteen thousand, six hundred years ago. Now, back in the fifties and the sixties, when archaeologists were really getting into the study of Clovis, they noticed that, wow, just as Clovis people seem to be traveling across the continent, all these mega fauna really seem to be dying, and so there must be a

connection there. There's co variance, but not just around the continent, around the world. Man, well look at the islands that wound up having ma'am is still four thousand years ago. What happened four thousand years ago? Dude showed up Wrangle Wrangle island. That's true. Now, there's there's two issues with that. One is that island extinctions are different than continental extinctions.

They have one dude show up. The other issues that paper just recently came out that showed that mammoths were surviving um in northern regions until very recently. So we did not cause their extinction. Yeah and so yeah, so, but it's a good point. Island. We we are terrible on islands, Like the wrinkle is not that big too. So like there's all these other factors that I'll let

you go on. But you got a lot of inbreeding, uh, shrinking, malformed mammoths on that island to where it could be possible that the people who do show up and kill them, maybe they weren't so great, Maybe their timing was great. Yeah, I don't want to get into it. Steve's like I descended from these people who killed mammoths, and I'm very proud of that. Well, there's an issue too as to whether or not we hunted mammoths versus hunted them to extinction.

And so I don't think anyone doubts that on occasion people that use Clovis technology hunted mammoths. You know, there's there's archaeological evidence that on some occasions that seem to have occurred. Um, the big question is whether we hunted them so much with the Clovis fluted point, um, that we wiped them out. Yeah, because a guy like me grew up seeing a Clovis point and saying that was made for killing mammoth and clothes points are awesome. Um,

I am grabbing one. You gotta describe. Clovis points are tend to twelve centimeters five or six inches. Um, they're beautifully flaked. It took me years to learn how to make an accurate Clovis point. We can pass them around. I brought huge so you wanted to kill a mammoth with it? Well, you can get really small ones too. There's some small ones over tiny maoth over here, little tiny ones. Um, that beautiful and uh, and they've got these channels. I want to hold one of the big ones. Yeah,

here you see another good one. This one's half let's go one. No, that's cool. So they've got these channels that come from the base, and these channels are really difficult to master. Um. It took me a long time to learn how to flake these channels off the base because when you you hit the point from the base, it causes all sorts of bending and the point will break. And we know from studies of the archaeological record that when you flute these things they break one out of

four times, one out of five times. Can you explain? So fluting? Are these channels, um, that you see at the at the base, and so they extend from that flat or concave base up and that is that concave or convex. I can never get those things. Concave is the one where it goes into the Yeah, you're holding the point and running along the length of the point.

They got it all done, and then they thin the base by knocking a a channel, knocking your concave channel channel up each side of the each side, so you're risk breaking it twice. And that's where it's anchored on a shaft, right. Yeah, And So the big question is, you know, it takes years to learn how to make a clothes point, and even after you've mastered it, you risk breaking it one out of four, one out of

five times. Why would close people, uh take those risks when you've got to feed your family and protect your your band from predators and all this sort of stuff. These are really important weapons for them. And actually, what we we discovered was that fluting technology is not for better hafting it or attaching it to a spear shaft. It's the world's first shock absorber. Do you think so? Well? We we showed so um, there's We've been following us

a little bit. So what what we were able to find when we teamed up with a bunch of engineers and computer scientists was that when you flute both sides of a close point, the base becomes super thin and brittle, really thin and brittle. And I start to think to myself, man, it's so thin and brittle, like it would just crunch. And then I was like, oh, man, maybe that crunching

is actually the advantage they were going for. So when a car crashes into something, the front end crumple's protecting the people inside So when you've got a Clovis point and I've got one attached to a for shaft, here is going seven year eighty miles at prey right, You're gonna get a lot of compression stress between that animal and the eight foot spear shaft behind it. Now, oftentimes

the point will snap in half. But if you've got that little shock absorber where it crumples a little bit and absorbs some of that impact stress um it actually will crunch at the base and not break the point in half. So if you're Clovis people and you're traveling across the continent and exploring new lands that you've never been to before, it was left and you know, you know you don't want to faster you eat them well, you don't want to spend a lot of time remaking

your weapons all the time. So by integrating these little shock absorbers, they figured out a way to basically extend the life of the tool that kept them alive. But speak about the hafting question, because that was long. It was like long held. Well you'd read where people would say, oh, it had a spiritual perhaps the spiritual significance, which means we don't know what it meant marchaeologist always say that when they don't know what's going on. And then you

had people talk about the hafting. But the hafting thing is kind of legit because imagine that I'm trying to explain as listeners that like take your middle finger and your index finger and like put them together right, so they're running parallel together, um, and then you slip that point between them, and then that in that little groove gives your fingers somewhere to rest, and then you lash

that down with string. I mean, it's plausible that that was Like, it's plausible right that that was helpful because if it was a rounded surface, your fingers wouldn't have anywhere to really grab. So that's one really interesting thing about the way archaeology has done today is that we study it in basically a way that you just described in terms of evolution. And usually when evolutionary UH features

get adopted, it's because they've got multiple benefits. So shock absorption could be one of benefit, hafting could be an additional benefit, um and so, and there could be other benefits the fluting that we have not yet discovered yet. So yeah, there's a lot of work to do. I want to I want to get back to what we're on, but I want to talk. I want to talk about

hafting for a second. If you think of your class like think of a boy scout badge and it has an Indian arrowhead on it, what do you call those little lobes at the bottom, like? Yeah? Uh? Like your classic arrowhead shape where you have a how do you describe that shape? Um? Sort of like a dovetail almost you have a little and there's grooves knocked out out we call those notches. Yeah. Do you does it seem as though that is helpful for hafting. It gives a

place for the string to bite. It does give a straight a place for the string to bite. Um. One hypothesis that we're testing now though, is that the notches are not meant to keep the arrowhead or the projectile point on the shaft. What it actually does is it prevents the point from being pushed into the shaft upon impact,

which would break the shaft. And to be honest, even though it takes years to learn how to make any sort of stone point um the shafts would probably be a lot more valuable to ancient people because it takes so much more time and effort to get it straight, find the right wood, carve it out, whereas once you know how to flint napp the close point, you can do it in twenty five or forty five minutes real quick. So, and they would make them with different stuff, right, is

there something made out of like camel bone? In mammoth ivory we get four shafts and shafts made out of wood and all kinds of wood and bone and yeah, everything. So it depends on where you are in the world. So bam bamboo in some cases in East Asia, Do they have any kind of like ancient adhesive that they would use on them? Yeah, so pine pitch is a really good one. Um, hide glue, they would make glue from hide. Um. Now in our labs, is this all

natural materials right here? No, In fact, it's mostly synthetic. Now. One reason why we try to uh not use animal products when we do experiments is because that the ethics in terms of doing experiments with animal products can just get a little dicey with oh yeah, but how are you supposed to do the work? So what we do we sometimes use animal products. I'm not saying we cut them out entirely. But there are some experiments where we don't need to use animal products, so we'll use like

a wax twine or a plant based product. If that's not if that's not the part you're looking at, If not the yeah, exactly. And then also to um, you know, pine pitch can be really difficult to produce, and there can be variability from one experiment to the next. And if we want consistency, we've got to use like a thermoplastic that allows us to control that variable when we're focused on some other variable. Yeah, but if you're studying

adhesives and exactly right, that's fair. I'll give you that one. That's fair. So what all kind of weapons? Were these points used on? Spears? Bows? At laddle? So the at laddle? Um, now, let me just preface that by saying, we have never found a clovis at laddle. Um, so are you into a ladle or at lattle? I say, at laddle? See, man, Okay, what do you say that? And then I got corrected so damn much. I started saying, yeah, I think at ladle. Dude. I had a dude tell him. He's like, listen, man,

it's wrong. And I switched. I trusted them, I think, and then he was like, let me tell you about this poop night. So, yeah, you never found a we've never found clothes at laddle. So we assume that they used at laddles with their projectiles. Because these projectiles, you see, they're big. Um. If you try to put that on an arrow, Um, it might mess up a lot of the ballistics. And it'd be hard to have that onto

an arrow shaft. And you don't see evidence of bows and arrows in this continent until like four or five years ago. Yeah, even later in some cases. Um. So the other issue too is we don't know that they were used with an at laddle. Could be hand like thrown spears or thrusting spears, handheld thrusting spears. Um. So it's just an assumption that they use the at laddle, but they may not be projectiles at all. Uh. I want to get a couple of things. We're gonna get

back to this whole mystery whether they killed man. But I wanna I want to just explain, folks when I'm holding so we have to correct me where I go wrong here the very tip the tip of the spears to speak, we have the stone clobus point and the specimen is made out of that is actually an English shirt. Okay, So it's made out of churt um and it's hafted to with string. It's lashed to a fifteen inch Yeah,

that's ash ash four shaft for shaft. So it's like the at the thickest parts about the thickness of sharpie and comes to a point um reminiscent of like a drumstick. Yeah, that's a good description. And then you didn't just fling this at something. It's like another part. So there's a what's the next part? Do you have one here? I couldn't fit the seven foot dart into my suitcase, so this sockets into a handle or what do you call

that point? We call the We call it a dart, and so it would be like a seven foot very thin and flexible spear um and so, and in that way, what happens is you throw being higher sort of dart and foreshaft at the animal. The foresheft sticks, the dart falls out, and then you can retrieve your dart and put in another force. So this would just sock it into that like just held by friction, yes, into you know we're in South America. They still use socceted shooting

out of arrows. They still use socketed points that fall away. That's amazing. And then they would tie for their bird points. They would leave a tied connection wrapped around because they want the arrow to fall away. And then it's the bird tries to fly away and he gets hung up in the bushes because he's dragging the shaft around on the end of a chunk of string. Yeah, that that's almost reminiscent. I read an ethnographic account of they tie

like skin balloons when they're doing whale hunting. Um, so that when the projectile hits, you know, the underwater creature that you're going after, you can follow it with that balloon. Um. So it's not being dragged, but and it absorbs a little bit. It's like a little bit of chakrams orbs pulls on it. And then that would be if the add a laddle thing. Explain what that is. I'm holding it right now, but explain what the hard we're talking about.

We saying is basically a stick with a little nub at the end of it, and that little nub very similar when you're playing fetched your dog and you got one of those tennis ball hookers. Yeah, like a tennis ball hooker with a little turkey spur sticking all the end of it. That's what it is. Sticks are the same, right. Um, it's a basically increases the leverage of your arm. It's

a lever um. And when you've got just a stick with a little nub, you put your spear sort of right inserted into that nub, you can launch a dart, you know, seventy miles an hour. Are you pretty good with one? No? I suck? What's the best person? Okay, the best person you've seen with one? How good are they at? Just give me like some distance and group size. So well, there's a couple of ways to use in

that attle, so you can do it for accuracy. And you know, I've seen and heard cases where people can hit a antelope from you know, thirty or forty yards, So that's pretty good. Um. The other thing though, that you can do with a dart in that laddle is if there's a large herd a hundred fifty two d away, you can just launch your dart into the herd and it will go that two hundred meters. Um, you can hawk on that far? Really, yeah, have done how far

can you hawk one? Probably hundred or so. But people that are but just hail married it out there into a group of stuff just to see what happened. Yeah, definitely like that never cry Wolf movie. There's probably ever he takes his he takes a jackknife, ties into the end of a stick, hawks it into a herd carab he walks owners one laying there dead. Never not never

cry Wolf great movie. Is there different size um like projectiles and stuff that you throw out of at little because obviously one you could throw farther than another, or

are they all pretty similar? So you can throw any size stone projectile within that laddle, So it can be a really teeny tiny arrowhead or a really large Clovis point, because what happens is that the dart is so much more massive than the point that it sort of balances out where you can't sort of go is take a really large point and put it on a very thin arrow shaft, So there you need to have small arrow

points um midas stone yep um. So go back to the different styles of like the different possible styles of hunting with one of these things. So there's like accuracy. You can go for you know, thirty forty yards try to get a lung shot or hard shot and people can do it. Um. Actually, if you type in at laddle hunting on the YouTube, there's lots of videos of people doing it. Um. But you can let me, let me throw one at you. That's kind of what I mean.

Let's say it's big gass man with standing there no, no, no bear with me. Yeah, okay, like they're not accustomed to people. Let's just let's just go down the fantasy thing here. You're early people on a new continent. You're dealing with animals, have no idea what the hell you are. Uh. They're just like, I don't know, what's this little annoying thing walking up to me? And you get up five yards away and you're like, right, you're not really relying

on accuracy. It's not a hail mary. You're just like, can I bury this thing in there enough to kill it? Yeah? And I'm sure you guys have messed around with that, like can you drive the point? Like nothing to do with it being far away, nothing to do with being really good at it, but just can you take it and flap? Like? Could I take it? Right through Phil Oh through Phil Oh Yeah, definitely, Yeah, that's no problem.

I pin him right to his chair. Yeah. Um. But when it comes to a mammoth uh the answers no, just flat out yea, just Helmett know that I'm going to pin him to his chair, or know that I'm going to get it in there enough to do something to him, You wouldn't be able to do anything to him, probably, Yeah, And I can explain why, all right. I don't buy it for one second. Have heard the explanation even, all right,

tell me why? All right? So ah, we did ballistics experiments in our lab at Kent State where instead of hucking it in a mammoth because we couldn't because well, yeah it's hard to find mammoths, right, you got to grow them. Yeah, they're trying, they're trying. It will be helpful with you guys. Yeah, you should order the first couple. Well, I do have a proposal for you when we're done

talking about mammoth um. But so, what we've been doing in our ballistics lab is we end up shooting into blocks of clay, and we've done lots of engineering experiments looking at the how clay compares to to meet and flesh. And it's not just us. There's been knife makers and all sorts of other people who have looked to see how does clay compare? What's that other ship? They used the ballistic gel, ballistics gel. We've also done experiments of that.

It's terrible ballistics. Gail. What about what they always do on like TV shows, like when they're testing out swords and ship like using using pigs. Um, Yeah, so, I mean you can use carcasses. Uh. The issue though then is how does that sort of compare? Yeah? Um, so we were shooting into blocks of clay. Now, these blocks of clay, while they compare to MEET, when they are different than meet, they're less resistant, so less resistant. They

also don't understand what that means. So that means if you were to fire into meat into clay, the projectile going into clay usually would be similar to meet in terms of penetration depth, but on occasion it would be less so or no, no, it would be more I'm sorry, on occasion will penetrate clay better than it will penetrate clay better than meat. All right, so we're firing into a less resistant substrate, but are giving it the benefits

we're giving it the benefit of the doubt. And also our clay, even though it compares to meat, doesn't have hair and it doesn't have hide. And so when you look at mammoths, mammoths can have ten to twelve centimeters of hair that would slow down your projectile, and their hides can be you know, two or three centimeters thick um.

So that's on top of any meat that you'd have to get through, right, and we're firing with our spot hog hooter shooter from a meter away into these blocks of clay, so kind of like what you described, just going up and hawking it into the animal. There's no wind, there's no rain um that could sort of cause the projectile to skew and hit it at an angle, which would reduce penetration. More so, we're given these Clovis points that we're firing into the clay the best possible chance

to penetrate as deep as they can. On average, Clovis points penetrate the clay blocks eighteen centimeters, so that much that is that is not deep at all. And when we compare what eighteen centimeters is not only to mammoths but to modern elephants, you are not reaching lungs, you're not reaching the heart, you're not reaching the liver. And this also assumes that you're making it between that cage

of ribs, which for mammoths is just like a fortress. Um. So are you familiar with the claim that at the Black Water draw site they found a mammoth skull with a Clovis point in its eye socket? I am not aware of that. Time. People think it's like someone put it there because I thought would be funny. What some people think it's legit? Is it funny? Well, not funny. I mean that that that that there was like, okay,

let me put it a different way. Some people think that I guess there's some people that were made that claim, and other people pointed out that there's probably some human, some modern human manipulation of the stuff where some huckster. Right there are hucksters and it was like coming to my special my you know what I mean, And you like, wouldn't be cool if you know I stuck it in there and showed tourists or it was like legitimately in there,

and I think I think it was. It was described as being like evidence of and then later was widely discredited as being no one knows how that thing got net head, but there's no like, no one was ever able to analyze it. It might just be like a guy was screwing around. I'm not familiar with that claim, but which makes me think it's probably not true. Yeah,

it's probably not true. That's all right. But uh so, you know, when it comes to the fact that we also know that Clovis points from analysis called microware, which is where you can take a scanning electron microscope and we look at the polishes and striations that are left on the artifacts themselves to see how they were used. We know Clovis points were used as knives, so they weren't just projectile weapons. They were multi use tools for

processing animals as well. So when we find closed points in association with mammoth skeletons, and that's very rare, it's only been done, you know, fourteen times in the history of archaeology. Can you walk me through a couple of the notable ones, Yeah, like, what like what was the relationship? Right? Yeah, so we'll find, Um, there's eight Clovis points found in the Naco mammoth um down in the southwest. Um, there's only three Clovis points kind of around the area of

the Colby mammoth in Wyoming. Um, let's see some of the other ones and neither not like the fulsome point laying in the ribs like thes like just in association, in association with but not like wedged into something. And we've never found a Clovis point tip in the bone of a mammoth, whereas we found fulsome uh points embedded in bison bone before and all other types of stuff.

So no, just to just to make sure everybody's clear, no one has ever recovered a mammoth bone they had like healed around or had like when it was fresh bone been impaled by struck by embedded in That is correct, never never. So these Clovis points that we find in association with mammoths, ah, could very plausibly be just people scavenging already dead ones. Have you found humans with Clovis points in the bones? No, because, um, we only have one Clovis burial that's ever been found and it's right

near here. Yeah, and zick One, that's right. I mean, like I forgot I was in Montana. You could you could be at the anzick One site and uh it's a great name for a boy. I think it sounds like a Steven Spielberg movie and Zick one. But he was a little boy buried uh over by Wilson with a bunch of Clovis points. Yeah, you just picture our CUTEI looked all wrapped up in those mammothides that his daddy killed. Right. Can we talk about the blitz Creek

hypothesis real quick? Yeah? Right? And like so where that name comes from? Right, It's like attacking very very fast, uh, overwhelming larger odds by moving really fast, faster than your opponents are gonna roll the whole place up in a thousand years? Um, how did people get to a new continent, Stephen? Did they get there really really fast? Did they get to new places really fast? In the book Sapiens, he talks about if I also want to say, I'm gonna

over here real quick? Well, no, okay, go ahead, and I'm gonna jump example from Sapiens, I think he says in Sapiens, the Oregon company spot Hog makes you know, like, uh, fancy tough archery sites is there is there big deal?

But they came out with that hooter shooter forever ago and it's it's a highly technical piece of equipment designed around um doing what every archery hunter, probably for thousands of years has always wanted to do, which is know that the bow is screwing up and it's not you, right, um. And I've known those folks at spot Hog for a

really long time. Everybody's super nice, great people. But had they lead with the fact they had a hooter shooter at can't State and projectile ab, it would have been, Yeah, I'd be lead with that. For this selling stuff is cool, but that's way cool. I want to first hardly recommend

the book Sapiens. It's got some sloppy mistakes in it, like what, um, they misspelled sapiens like a no, no, Just like he'll like make some examples like, for instance, if a if a blank animal were to like do this to a blank animal and be like animals that don't coexist on the same continent, just like kind of like a little lazy comparisons that they're annoying if you catch them. But I mean it's you know, it's a

highly regarded book. He gets into like the human diaspora out of Africa seventy years ago and for a long time he talks about, which is kind of cool, Like if you go to an area and you'd be like, oh, there's some mule deer. Oh there's some white tailed deer that UM at various times around the world, you have different humans coexisting to be like, oh there's one kind of them. Oh, there's not a kind of them. They seem really similar with they're kind of a little bit different, right, UM.

But he focuses in on Homo sapiens and he says, if a forager band split once every forty years. Uh. Prior to this, he gets into like what probably hunter other bands? How big as a hunter gatherer band, Like, just based on various pieces of evidence, is like like roughly how many people lived in these hunter gatherer bands that roamed around and then how did they like, what were their group interactions and group dynamics and it's all a huge question mark. But he just kind of offers

some like perspectives on how to understand this. UM there's kind of this funny thing that happens to uh, and he looks at all these examples from from UM human societies.

A hundred people becomes a very different if you imagine a group of people as like an organism, say, uh, the organism changes dramatically at a hundred people, and he gets into a lot of stuff even at like organizations, professional organizations, um military units, all these kinds of examples, Like like sub one d people, every individual is able to know. Like at sub one d people, every individual is able to know pretty much the history of everyone else.

You can know their name, You'll be able to put together their family tree, you like remember grievances and gripes. You get over a hundred peop when you start to enter into sort of like a different territory, And it seems that a lot of these early groups he like, he has this spirited argument that probably around a hundred people or less, probably not more would survive as these roaming bands of hunter gatherers that just stayed on the move all the time, Which leads to this quote which

I highlighted. If a forager band split once every forty years, and it's splinter group migrated to a new territory sixty miles to the east, the distance from East Africa to China would have been covered in about ten thousand years. So that's slow, but it's like it depends on your perspective. It's it's like it's slow but fast, I mean East Africa to China, just as like people filling up the landscape without a thought, without being propelled by the idea

that you're supposed to fill up the landscape. Uh. I mean, obviously you're familiar with this, which is why I asked the question. Right. It's like, in order for there to be new there, there brings to mind like this this picture of like I fell out of a balloon and landed in this landscape where nothing had seen me before, my kind before. Whereas that sixty miles um certainly around here, you know, we have a bunch of snow on the

ground right here. You move sixty miles in three different directions, you're gonna be there's some stuff that looks green around here already. Uh. And it's snow free, right. You can really change your landscape and and what's around and abundant there. But we know that all these animals have these big, overlapping territories that migration roots. They do a lot of moving to. So this idea of there being like a new encounter constantly unannounced, this sort of a constantly announced

present surprise. We're humans, right, is very hard for me, Like the knowledge of humans may well have just travels sort of at the outer edge of humans, right right, And then I think, like the hunted animals are like a man, those slow bipedal things, or they we move a little bit. A few days later they that's a great point, man, that it wasn't like some dude. It is like I'm gonna sneak over a thousand miles past where anybody's ever been and get past any awareness of

who I am. It's just it's hard. But you read it and you're like and then you're like, wait, do you think you can publish that in the paper called the Callahan principle? Yeah, well it's I think what you're getting at right with litz Creek is it assumes animals are also real dumb, and that animals don't learn. And you know, you might get away with walking up to a species that's never seen you before once, but his buddies are watching and they're gonna see what you did, um,

and they're gonna learn. And so this idea that just because we were new, we could just walk up and sort of club animals on the head and take them out. Blitz Creek style doesn't make any sense or even the at laddle when you you compare it to like close range hunting tactics that we have now, right, um, especially to huck something two. That's a big body movement, right, I imagine there's a couple of big steps in there.

You're really arc in your arm. You're a happy Gilmore style, yeah Gilmore a stylary right, versus like you're not, um, crouched down semi sneak, drawing your bow back, locking it in. You know, there's just like some some big movements, it's a it's a more probably less uh a little more brutal versus uh. You know. Another thing I read, it's

like another ant ye Blitz Creek hypothesis. Thing I've read is that, um, there's no remains of I don't think there's even a butcher site of like a giant ground slot. Every time you're reading about the place has seen extinctions, they always love to talk about the giant ground slot because what a crazy aest animal, right, how are they

like oh four ft taller? You know, people love to bring up like mammoths and right, It's like when a when a writer, when some journalists is going to do a list of animals, and they know they're gonna start with mammoth. The second one is probably the giant ground slot nine ft long, five pounds. Yeah, like, man, I'm a stand uh giant ground sloss. Every journalist does it.

I was reading that there's no butcher site, not only no like, not only no bone stone tools stuck in his bone, not even a butcher site from a giant ground SLOs. So the only animals that we've got clovis artifacts in association with our mammos masodon one camel, one camel, one camel, one horse, and I believe that's it. But we have human bones associated with with more animals. But it could be like overlaps for like burial sites, right, because I know that we have like some cave bears

and some human skulls in close proximity. Not in North America, South America. I've never heard of that. I think it was two years ago there or something that came out that was pretty underwater cave. Oh so in Mexico. Yeah, there is a human skull, yes, and so maybe there was over the head yeah, um so yeah when that was yeah, I believe that was in Mexico, but it was a very confused stratigraphy, like that thing had been collected shipped for a long time. Yeah, imagine slimming down

there and there's a lay school there. But that's an insane I mean, we're basing a lot off of very few sites that we know for sure humans actually carved on just a handful of creators. If we were regularly hunting these mega mammals, you know, hundreds hundreds of millions of these specimens, right, we'd be finding Clovis points in association with these things all over the place. But they're only but you're not finding clothes like Okay, look at this.

If you're going by that piece of evidence, then we'd have to say there weren't any Clovis hunters because we've only found one. Well, you have the Anzick one boy, So if you're gonna go by what you found, then we have to say that there weren't any people think we haven't found them, Well, but we've got their artifacts. Yeah, but we've got stone. Last stone lasts a long time. No mega mammal bones, do I see what you're saying,

But you see what I'm saying. And zigone and zig one, you could easily make the jump and say, oh, these are ceremonial points that weren't actually used for anything. The other issue too with Clovis burials is it is a mystery as to why we only have one. Like, we don't like, where are these Clovis bones, But maybe they buried them on cin They didn't bury, but they did, like the planes tribes and put them on scaffold. That's possible. So there's something behavioral with Clovis that we just don't

know what's going on. Why Because we have hundreds of Neanderthal skeletons from three hundred thousand to fifty thousand years ago, Clovis is only thirteen thousand years ago, and we only have one and it's an infant. So what Clovised people are doing with their burials or with their you know, deceased relatives, we have no idea. That's interesting man, Like they weren't intering them in caves. No, And what's really strange about Clovis too is that they do not seem

to utilize rock shelters or caves at all. Every other hunter gatherer group around the world passed and present, going back two million years to you know, modern hunter gatherers use caves and rock shelters. There are no Clovis rock shelter sites or cave sites. What's the speculation like hide shelters,

big spiders. I don't know. Maybe it could be some sort of taboo, some cultural thing again ritual maybe rituals because like the people, uh, the Europeans that used the similar tech tool technology and associated with a similar suite of animals, they even call them like caveman. Oh yeah, I'm always correcting my kids because they want to call like they know about me being really interested in ice

h hunters, and they're always calling them caveman. And I'm like, on the contrary, anthropologists think that they weren't real big into caves. They didn't hang out in caves. No, they did in Europe, and after what I'm saying here here, they didn't exact I've only just read that that they didn't like going and not that they didn't like We don't know what they thought of them, but that you don't find their bones and tools and stuff in rock

rock led shelters. Not place the scene now, once we get into the hole of the the scene after ten tho years ago, we see people in North America using caves and rock shelters all the time. So it's just for whatever reason that blip of Clovis for about five to six hundred to seven hundred years, caves are just sort of off the real estate market. I don't know why. Uh you said that someone could make one of them. Well,

let me ask that question first. So you think of what I'm at, what I should be holding right now as a knife, Yes, that's just it. So they could be used for hunting weaponry and projectile technology as well, But for smaller things like deer elk um, they just don't They wouldn't penetrate deep enough to do anything to mammoth. So I think they could be used as hunting weapons. And look, it's possible that Clovis folks did occasionally take

down to mammoth. I'm not saying they never hunted mammoth ever, But the question is did they hunt these things to extinction? And is the Clovis point some sort of stone age bazooka that allowed them to do that with ease? And and the answer is no. The of this point just isn't this a K forty seven where you could just mote on mammoths. And but that's the impression that archaeologist

has published for for decades. If they couldn't kill them with Clovis points, do they have any other creative solutions to kill the mammoth? Well, so this is it. This is where the faults of the archaeological record really come into play. Like maybe they use some sort of poison that has not preserved on Clovis points you know today, So maybe they use some sort of poison to takedown

mammoths drive from what I don't know any well. And the issue too with poison is because Clovised people were relatively new to the landscape, they would have needed to learn which plants to to utilize to make those poisons and what quantities. So I find the idea that they use poison um not very convincing. But that's that's possible,

and that's something we can't falsify at this point. What about just like driving them off cliffs and then going to the bottom of that cliff and then dispatching them with like the Clovis points. So we do have bison jumps in later time periods um where people would drive bison off the cliffs and then you know, they butcher the top layer and then there's like two or three bison deep where they just couldn't get to them. Because yeah, um, we've never found a mammoth jump um, and I feel

like we'd find that if that existed at this point. Um. So there's all those great dioramas, aren't there, dioramas of people with like sticks pushing and we were kids a book we used to there's a great picture in one of our books, and they had gotten one in a pit trap and we're hurling giant rocks down on it. Well the first skirts. So that's a possibility, right, you drive a mammoth into an arroyo and and it gets stuck like or maybe it's already sick or dying so

close people or whatever you had. But like this idea that Clovis folks, that is what they did and that's who they were, they were mammoth hunters, just isn't supported. Um, So that would just be like saying, you know, well, actually I can't come up with an analogy, so you can cut this part. Let me let me tell you about have you have you ever heard of the book The Oregon Trail. I played the dos game in the nineties.

There's a historian. There's a guy that wrote at the time the definitive History of the French and Indian War. And his name was Francis Parkman, and he had a long problem. I can't hemera what it was. And his doctor said, you needed you know what they used to send everybody. What the hell do you have when they send you? Right? Was consumption? Was TV? Right? Yeah, They're like, you gotta go out to the dry climates, you know, to survive. It was like a big thing. Uh. A

woman would cop blood into a handkerchief. Yeah. The doctor like town exactly right, exactly. Uh. So this fellow Francis Parkman, he went out in eighteen forty six and wound up traveling with the Iguala Sioux and likely was in Crazy Horses camp when Crazy Horse would have been about thirteen

years old. They go into the Black Hills to collect He goes with the Iguala Sou into the Black Hills to collect tep poles and describes there how one day they get on a ledge up above a herd of big horns and start rolling trundling rocks down through the herd and kill something that's amazing, and he explains it very explicitly, and it's like, um, that doesn't get that's

preserved because he saw it. And this is the thing we've talked about when we talk about these things like archaeological stings, and were they like were they ten years later? Do you remember that weird ass time when we got on that hill and freakishly there's a hundred big horns and frequently there's like these big, huge rocks and they

were like and how weird that was? Right? Right, despite having all these other technologies, right, instead of using the guns that we had, instead of using the spears, instead of using the bows. Yeah, or was it like you know what we like to do, come May, we get on a big cliff every year and trundull big horns, death of big rocks, right, because there's just there's like a certain amount of just like freaking ship happen. Yeah, definitely,

you know. And so the fact that like you come across the man was stuck in the mud and some guy manages the you know, taken an hour or so of his time, Jeff, some holes into over and over like jab it's eye out till it dies with a Clovis points. I don't know sure, yeah, no cloths, people

could have occasionally taken one out. Um, but you bring up like these historic accounts and we can get into the ethnographic record of elephant hunting, and that's where we can start to look at well, okay, let's look at folks who have metal spears. Right, there are documented cases of the mabooty in Africa of spear hunting elephants are trying to spear hunt elephants and they're metal spears bend and bounce off Bisa. Hunters with muzzle loaders only have

a twenty percent success rate of of taking out mammoths. Yeah, elephants, elephants, yeah yeah, And so like this idea that with modern metals and and even firearms, it's hard to to take out an elephant, which is smaller than a mammoth, the idea, and you don't have that hair and you don't have yeah exactly, and hair can really slow down projectiles dirty

oh yeah, sam, mud filled hair. Never tried to skin of critter with a knife, tried to jab a man with under those conditions, So it's uh, it would have been a challenge. And so this idea that they just did it all the time, I just isn't supported. So you don't know where I caught you in a contradiction. It could correct your career, you know, it's I made knives out of my own frozen poop. So I don't know if i'd call it a career. Earlier, you we

we're talking about fluting. Yeah, and you pointed out that it could act as a shock absorber. But but there was a knife. No, No, it was a multi functional tool that could also be used to say, it could be you know, used for deer, moose or or elker or whatever. So yeah, um, a colleague, try to do that to me too, You try to ruin your career, same thing, you know, the exact Yeah, but now that I think about it, you already said that it probably was and they might used it for fighting each other

or self defense. Um. This is the other thing about Clovis points. They're so big, um that I am starting to suspect that they were probably used primarily on handheld spears. Um, because think about it, right, you are new to this continent. There's all sorts of critters that want to eat you, short faced bear, sabertooth tigers, Your and your population densities are really low because you're peopling this new continent. You

want to do everything you can to survive. When you're out in the wild, you need some form of self defense. Um and so more and more I'm starting to think to my mind that maybe Clovis points would have served that purpose as well, and it had a stick and it was just like a d all. Yeah, again, I want to say new to this continent by like, what's your context? Right? Are you fifth generation new to this continent? Right? Like? What? Well, So this gets into the whole issue of when North

America's was peopled. Right, So, there are pre Clovis people's in North America. Now there they seem to be limited to the West coast, Pacific, Northwest, and the southwest. There are areas of North America where it looks like people who use Clovis technology were first, So that would be the Great Lakes, New England, probably the southeast parts. Um. So Clovis was first in some regions, but they had predecessors in other regions because the fluted point was invented here.

We don't find the Clovis fluted point anywhere else in Asia or anything like that. So if it was invented in North America. There had to have been pre Clovised people here to invent it. Yeah. I've heard people in trying to describe the Clovis culturalist sort of like it was the first widespread American born. Yeah, that's a good description. How long did the Clovis culture last? Only about anywhere from five hundred to probably eight hundred years. Yeah, it

did not last long. Now the reason why? Well, yeah, but how I mean it a long? Like think about how long has America been here? Well, that's true, but when you mean they're like five Americas, that's true, but I mean America the country. Yeah, you're like, oh, that's not very long, and they're like, well that is pretty long. Well, but my math stone technology good, I'm saying it's a long time. Yeah, but Clovis points compared to something like this, which is so this is the ashlet in hand ax

made by Homorectus. So it is a large tear drop shaped object that is much larger than my face. I don't know what else to say. Gorgeous, man, But this lasted for one point five million years, this particular, so you'll find them in the human record for that long. Yeah. Really, long time. So it's an idea that stuck. Yeah, so you like the idea of Clovis points last for eight hundred years is not long at all? One point five

million years. This thing, Homorectus was just using this over and over again to chop up tubers and disarticulate skeletons. So see when you came in, this is a good transition into like how stuff was produced. Um, I a real quick to you. Just as we pass this around, obsidian does get sharp to the molecule, So just when you're passing it around, don't like touch the edge. Yeah, woke me through based on what we found. What we found, Like, let's say on this continent, A your hunter gatherer and

you use stone tools. So you use stone, spear points, stone arrow points, stone knives, right, all your hardships made out of stone. Um, leave out trade networks and just walk me through sort of like the process of one minute you have nothing and then you have these like finally wrought pieces. So alright, so this is a I'm holding a raw piece of shirt that I just almost destroyed your microphone with. Um. Now this is called George Town shirt from Texas, and iously that I think you're

holding the hunkle bone. Yeah, we're like the outside of it. This is rock and it's got this chalky substance cortex almost. So that's like you find that laying on the ground. You find that laying on the ground, you can quarry it a well, dig it out at like a churt outcrop. Now something like that. I would start chipping with the hammerstones and stuff which I brought. I can do some tipping for you guys. No, no, no, no, aren't we through it? Man? But do you want to bust that

one up? Or you like that one too? No? No, I brought that to break for you, guys. That's a beauty piece. Oh no, I mean which is like trying to break it. And it's like called the conchoidal fracture conchoidal fracture, and so what it means is chirt, basalt, obsidian. These are all rocks that break like glass um and concoidal means shell like the fracture. Yeah, I've heard that word. I never put together what it means. Yeah, it means like a little scallop shell. Exactly when you flake it,

it leaves like a little scalp shell shape. That's exactly right. And because that shape is predictable, and if you understand the angles and where to hit it, the fracture becomes really predictable and you can basically make whatever you want. UM. So a piece like that you would sort of thin down into a larger naps. So this is the same stone. Is that called a byface or this is called a byface because I've I've take flakes off of both sides, um and it's got a nice sharp edge. I could

use this as a processing tool. So now the hunk of what's that? What's that again? That's Georgetown shirt? So we got a huge as hunk at Georgetown chirt and what's the way six pounds? Yeah, I mean it basically looks like a big rock um with what's down the outside the cortex white CORTI like a dough colored cortex on the outside, but the inside is like classic smooth,

kind of flint looking, flinty looking rock. And this, like I said, you picked this up off the ground like right where God laid it, Like there it is okay. And then someone's not gonna like walk away with fifty pounds of this ship in his bag. They might, oh you think so, yeah, you would see these. You'd see these move from sources. We see people transport rock all

sorts of distances. Yeah, like in this form, yeah oh yeah, in raw form, also in processed form, because I was picturing them getting it, like down to what I'm holding my other hand, which is this, Uh how how thick is that? It's like thick is a slice of bread. Yeah,

all cleaned up on all sides. It's almost kind of like an a workable knife shape, right now, that's right, And then of this you could further And what's the advantage of that by face that you're holding is that it's not sort of the knife itself or the by face itself. It's all the fact that all the flakes

that come off are really useful and razor sharp. Um. So this this by face is like a little container of stone flakes from every time I take one off, I'm like removing a flake from this container to make all sorts of other tools or arrow heads or scrapers or whatever. What's the furthest you ever seen like like origin toolstone travel from like where you expected to find it to where like you recovered like an artifact. Yeah, so they there's a site in northeastern Ohio called Paleo

Crossing that I've been working on since I was a teenager. Um. And uh, the the rock was transported by Clovis people over six hundred kilometers UM. And so they picked up what's called Wyan dot Churt from southern Indiana and western Kentucky.

And probably because they didn't know if there was going to be resupply rock in northern Ohio where they were going to because they were sort of moving into that region for the first time, they geared up and they prepared and they took a ton of this wine dot Churt and transported it northward to northeastern Ohio. Like how much is a ton? I mean, like I know how much of ton? So we're talking about forty Clovis points. Uh, something like eight hundred scrapers. You got a site that

put off forty Clovis points. Oh yeah, oh yeah, if you want to see them too, you guys are all welcome to come to the lab and and over how big of an area? Ah, probably, I'm just trying to think in terms of fifty square meters. No ship really, Yeah, it's pretty sweet, was it was? It a good decision for them to move all that shirt or do they have like some good source material to where they took it?

So why not shurt is awesome? Um so they were they knew what they were doing when they picked up a bunch of it, and so of geared good rock. Oh it's good rock. It's really good. I'm real dumb and so. But but again, there is rock in Ohio. But since they had never been there before, they didn't know, so they prepared. They took a bunch up with them. Yeah, so you go smart from vacation, you bring a bunch of sunscreen and you realize was a bunch of sunscreen

and the airbnb. That's right, that's right. We were in Nebraska on a deer hunt and on this this place where it went, there was barely any rock and most it was just and if you found a rock, it was most likely brought there. Yeah. Yeah, the rancher we're talking, he was saying that he goes well in this area, just the fact that it is rock. It's probably you should worth looking at because because there's nothing, there's no rock here, man, rock here's something It came in someone

carried it. No, definitely, and I think god we used flint and basalt and conquitally fractured rocks for three million years. I mean, this stuff is the most valuable stuff I think our species ever used. I mean, it got us to where we are today. I mean, and then it's the origin of the firearms industry in a lot of ways, gun flints, right, and then there are hunter gatherer groups today that's still use concutely fractured rock for various tools

and stuff. Okay, bust one upright, putting the safety glasses on. I have to and hopefully I won't lose a finger, which I almost did once. I see a tap and what do you tap? And just listen to the harmonics. Yeah, so um, for a couple of reasons. One, if there's a dull thud, that'd mean there'd be some sort of crack in it. So if I mess up here, then it's my fault. It's you're you're testing the sound, testing the sound. You want that nice sort of like how

do you choose your pounding stone? There? So this is a sandstone and depending there's a lot that goes into it in terms of the type of rock that you're flint napping. Also the size of your rock. You want to adjust your hammerstone to match it such that you can initiate a fracture but not actually push the rock out of your hand or out of your lap. Yeah, view that way. Your hammerstone probably ways a third or a quarter or what your piece of Yeah, probably something

like that. So I am just one little hit, one little hit, beautiful, this nice flake and you can see those. So he did one hit and knocked off like a chocolate chip cookie off there. So now the first flakes that come off any nodule generally aren't that great because they've got that cortex, so they're not that sharp. Yeah, what's the other word for that stuff? It's called like, like in general, how they describe it, um patent a patina? Yeah,

like is that not the right word? Well, patinas when it changes color, Well, we'll get even sharper patentations, Yeah, that's the coloration. Yeah, so no, we'll get some sharper one. I mean that comes off sharp though. All right now, these first ones, like I said, aren't so sharp because of that cortex. But we're gonna get some real sharp ones here. And and what are you calling these pieces primary flakes? Yeah, and let me ask another question. You boys can look at this, and you can look at

this and say that was broke off. That was broke off by a blow. Yes, that wasn't broke off by erosion. Correct, Yes, Yes, So conchoidal fracturing stone tools, especially when you start making more complex things, there's no mistaking them with with nature. It's not like a frost like like water got in there and expand and no different. That's correct. So we're getting that's a nice sharp An interesting thing about this if you're trying to visualize this at home, is when

he lays the rock down and hits it. Uh, the piece he's blowing off isn't on top. He's blowing off a piece that is then left. He's doing this on his knee with a bunch of leather on his knee for padding, and he hits the top of the rock and it doesn't knock off the top. He hits the top of the rock and it blows a hunk off the bottom, and that's where he's then left like laying

on his lap. Right. And that's why flint napping can be so difficult is because you don't actually see the product that you're making, and it just takes years of experience to know that this product that you're not seeing is only created with certain variables that you do see. Um, So all right, that's pretty cool man. Now this is a really sharply Um, let's use this one though. Actually,

let's cut some leather. Brought some extra pieces, so fresh off the rock, fresh off the rock, so this edge right here, go ahead and grab that, and yeah, this is some decent leather ship man, So just ahead and slice that. Well, yeah, there go slices, leader, man. So you can easily disarticulate an entire I mean, it's like when you run your thumb across it. It's uh, I mean it's like if you just did it to blind to someone he said, what's that, they'd be like, it's

like a kitchen knife. Yeah, well, let's should we knock one off the obsidian? Let's see, man, that's I don't think you should mess that thing up. Man, do you got more of those? I've got more? You can knock off a couple here. That was too kind of nice. It's always funny when I travel with a bunch of rock um, because they always go through my two case and they're just like, what the hell is this? Weapons? Yeah?

A stone? Weapons like Um, so what I'll do is I'm just gonna prepare a small striking platform on this. What's that mean? So the striking platform in flint napping is the spot that you're going to hit. Um, so you're knocking the sharp he's like dulling it. I'm dulling it. So basically I get a bigger bite when I strike huh the flake, and I'm grinding it as well, which adjusts the angle slightly. Um, there's all sorts of variables that go into flint napping. Now what am gonna do

is I'm gonna do. I gotta tell you real quick that there's two things I've avoided in life is chest and flint napping because I got a glimpse into each of them and realized that I was never going to really figure it out, and so why I mess around? You know what, if you were able to and this goes for all you guys, if you want to come to the lab, I'll get you guys flint napping and day a day. Yeah, it just seemed like a deep

dark hole you can go into. Man, Yeah, I mean it it becomes like so from my experience, right, so kind of like I've been flint napping for over twenty years years. Um. Two of those years I apprenticed one of the best flint nappers in the world. Um, a guy named Bruce Bradley. And during that two years I flint napped ten hours a day every day. Yeah. Um. And then I apprentice another flint napper named Bob Patton, who's also one of the best in the world. And um,

for again, just it's it's an apprenticeship. It's like anything. It just takes a long time. Will you explain your tool change? Yeah, so this is just antler, and antler allows you to strike different angles. Yeah, definitely. I got some bigger ones too. Here's a moose for larger flakes. Look at that, man, Yeah, so like imagine, um, I'll describe that call, yeah, an ice cream calling. It almost looks like the pedicle end of a moose. Antler. That's pretty.

That's that's cool. Just like that. So, well, let me get slightly bigger one here, just because if you're gonna be holding it, I don't want you to lose a finger like I almost did. Now there's great quote here already where he's like, be careful with that gets sharp to the microbial level. Well, you know, it's funny. There's uh it does. It gets sharp to the molecule, molecule molecular and I'm gonna explain my knives to like two people after like that from now on. Yeah, we would

see a molecule on the end. Now, Um, they're so sharp, you might be like, well, why how come surgeons don't use them? Surgeons don't like obsidian because it's so sharp that they can't feel the different layers of skin. It's because it just goes right through. There's no resistance, whereas with steel they have just that slight little bit of resistance. Um that allows them to sort of feel where they are. Now here, Now is that a true story? Someone in

the flint napping community. Actually, I can see Brody through it. Have a surgeon performance surgery with obsidian tools on on themselves. So Don Crabtree was a flint napper in the nineteen fifties and sixties, it seems like driver. Yeah, and he made his own Uh. Okay, we're taking the piece of the city in which I said, like you can look through it, cut at your buddy, not your body. Oh yeah, I look at that man right through. Oh so this stuff works. Um, oh ship that sharp. Check that out.

But like that won't go through a man with I don't know what will. Well, it went through my pinky finger and they had to restitch everything back together. I saw my own bone. You never if you can get through life and not see your own bone, that's a win. So I've lost that one certainly. Just don't want to yourself and trusted there. Yeah, he jumped back to don crabtree. He made a citian blades for his own surgery that the doctor used. Um, so that's that's pretty cool just

as an experiment. Well, no, well he had to have a curtain. He didn't. It wasn't like an optional surgery, but I mean like he wanted to do that to see how it would work. Yes, yeah, and it worked is amazing. So when you can get edges this sharp just from nature, like you can see why this is such a useful thing for for ancient people. But how can you take that like that rock is it looks

like black glass? Yes, it's beautiful and obviously real sharp. Um, there has been huge chunks of the continent where you're not gonna have anything like that. I mean you could walk around for months and not seeing anything laying around like that. What's amazing is there's church and flint outcrops across North America. So now you'll only get certain types

of rock in certain areas. So like you'll get upsidian in the Pacific Northwest, but you know, we'll get church in Ohio and in Kentucky and New England and the southeast. And when you can't use church or obsidian, you can use court sites. Um, there's there's nappable rock all across the continent. So you don't find areas where they had to use something totally different because they just had nothing that would work on this continent. They all had some version. Yeah,

and we get nappable rock around the world. I mean every paleotic culture for the last three million years was able to make stuff, find some kind of something. Yeah. Um, all right, so you got your knock off what do you call that piece? Though? Any of those pieces you got in front of you that you took off of the big one just flakes. I mean I can turn these into Loyero heads. Show me a flake that you'd be like kay now and make me a Clovis point from it. So I probably get a slightly larger one

let me do that real quick. So I'm gonna I'm gonna get a platform here and I'm gonna strike off a really large flake. You're gonna doule the face. So okay, when you get your giant busting rock ready, actually probably you're actually braiding it now to dull it up. Yes, yeah, and so you're smoothing it out. It's also slightly adjusting the angle of the platform I'm about to hit. And then I'm also gonna probably strike this with the moose antler. So you feel like, right right now, you kind of

know what's gonna happen. I know exactly what's gonna happen. Tell me what's gonna happen. Let's prove it. So I am going to turn this rock over. I'm gonna support it. So you just you you took the edge off, sit kind of sanded it down at the angle you want, and now you're going to hit it with a giant hunkle moose antler. What is going to happen? There should be a flake that comes off that will be a nice decent sized flight. So you're going to put money

on it. Chester Okay, just says five bucks. You can't do it so not as big. Hold on one second, let me just how many chances you No, no, that one was my fault. There's nothing wrong with this rock. No, no, sometimes the platform crumbles. That happens. That that was the platform crumbling. That was a platform crumbling because I did

not strengthen it enough. So here you go. So how much of this is like prescriptive versus like interpretive, Like does somebody take a piece of rock and go, I'm going to make this now or do they go, oh, this happened. I could make this, or I could make this, or I might make this. No, like I could sit here and make a Clovis point from this rock, Like so I yeah, that's what I would. Yeah, but I'm saying, like when when somebody knocks off little like char makes

maraheads too. Oh no, no, um, everything is intentional. So it's not just you busted all the pieces and see what you got. No, no, no, you have to do something specific to get something exactly exactly. Sorry, there we go. Oh so that was what he said was gonna happen. Yeah, that's what you would happened the first time. But that's okay. Yeah, we still got enough. If you don't like it. Hit another one, I believe you now? Oh yeah, no, no no

that sorry, I can keep going like this one. I brought ones that I could sort of finish like this one that was pretty good, but like a fella could make a close point. Yes, yeah, definitely, because Clovis points can get small too. Um, that's for baby man. Do you think they did Do you think they did any kind of maintenance on a point, Like would they apply some mineral oil to it, or wash them or put some dust on them? Um? Why just because they were big?

Because they were big into ochre so okre. When we get ochre found on Clovis artifacts, what I suspect is happening is that they're not like doing a ritual or they sprinkled the ochre on the artifact. I actually think what they've done is they've waterproofed the leather bag that the Clovis point was in in ochre. That wasn't those wasn't there like some ocre involved with that anzik one site? Yeah? And we have a um what looks like to be a Clovis cash and ohio that we just published, and

there was ochre on those pieces too. You think of their sack I think there was a sack that they were all put in when they were buried. Now that disintegrated over the last thirteen thousand years and the ochres left on the stone tools that were in the bag. So that's why I think was happening. But I could be wrong. I've been wrong before. Now what are you doing? So right now, I'm isolating this platform to get a much bigger bite on this flake that I'm about to

take off. And what I'm gonna do too is just adjust the angle slightly. Dude, what would you given to sit around naps some flint with the Clovis Dudes? Man, do you think you'd be able to? Like? Do you think you'd be better they were? Do you think they'd smoke you? There is no modern flint napper that would ever approach what a prehistoric napper could have done with their skill because they weren't brought up with it, not

brought up with it. And also to like, when you when your life depends on on a tool or a weapon, like you just understand it inherent intimate level that someone who isn't dependent on it just can't. So there's lots of foot nappers. The compound interest of it every like literally every ancestor you've ever had had always done it, and from the time you were a day old, it was happening around you. And and so there's modern flint nappers today, because there's quite a few hobby flint nappers.

I think there's probably, I don't know, anywhere from eight to ten in North America. They say they think sometimes that they're better than ancient folks. Yeah, they're not right. They're not because because what they'll make a really pretty point and they'll compare it to Clovis ones and they'll be like, oh, look, my flaking is better than this Clovis point. Well, look, the Clovis person did not give a crap about how their point look. They wanted it

to function. If they had wanted to make a pretty point, they would smoke any modern napper. Um so alright, so let's strike another really large flake. Cuff here, got his moose antler moose, Sorry, the tables, he's cocking back, microphone, by the go ahead. There's speed napping competitions, like like sitting down and make clothes point as fast as you can. Yeah,

there are speed competitions. There are these things called nappins no, no, yeah, no, nappers get together across the continent and getting they sell and make stuff and yeah they're like little craft certain things. And yeah, napins are fun. Yeah, take away the k and I'd be down for that one. A. Are there examples of like ornamental points being found ornamental? Yeah? How do you know? So there are, because they'd be like

a quality that wouldn't be utilitarian. Oh, I got you. Um, so we get Clovis points, may have quartz, crystal got this one. All these ones are flake, they're big, but they're snapping. Um, we get courtch crystal, Clovis points, um, which as far as I know, don't seem to have been used. So that could be some sort of ornamental or symbolic thing. Um. Some people think that the flute themselves are symbolic because it's so hard to do without breaking the point that it was some good omen for

the hunt to come that if you successfully point. Yeah, you know, I'm just saying, this is the ideas out there after Yeah, that's that's what happens, you know, So who knows, but we'll never know, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, And it's it's fun to have ideas. So you could take these flakes, right, so we've got a nice size one. Compare it to you know, something that's midway. So you think this could potentially be living in here? Yes, yeah,

I got a question for you. So you're using a rock to knock off a piece of that rock, You're using an antler to knock it off. Why why wouldn't you use like a modern metal hammer or some tool like that. Well, because he's trying to figure out how dudes used to do it. No, I'm saying, like, I'm asking what would happen? Basically, what are the reasons for not doing that? You could use like a copper bopper, which is what they're called copper boppers. That's what we

call them. Nappins. Yeah, Nappins and Boppers. That's a good title for the show, Nappins and Boppers, remember that. It's Yeah, that's gonna be my podcast. I have my lawyer send over. But sometimes you do want to use modern tools if the question that you're testing isn't involved in the production of those tools. But if we're interested in sort of how quickly or how economic you can make a close point, you wouldn't want to use modern tools to answer that question.

So you could use modern tools to flake, and people do. But let me with this one dated to Brody's question. If I said, you make me a the Clovis point as fast as you could possibly do it, and you can use whatever you want, um, would you be like, oh sweet, I'm gonna use my No, I would still use handler because as I rarely ever use modern tools, so I would probably suck with modern But you're never sitting around and being like, you know what would be

great for this is aluminum. We got some aluminum points right there, so because aluminum weirdly has the same density as churt. That's just I wouldn't even know that that is aluminum. Its aluminum. I mean I would, I would. I thought you had painted. I thought you had painted some No, so this is a Clovis point I did out of chirt. This is that same Clovis point made out of aluminium or cast in aluminium, and it breaks the same way. No, I mean it'll bust like on

an impact. Better on impact, oh much better on impact? Yeah, much better. But the advantage of aluminum for certain experimental tests as it doesn't break so even because it has the same density, like it has the same ballistics once it's in the air, um, and so so you can test other stuff break. Yeah, it's a pan the butt to keep making. Is that cast off that you took the stone and made a cast and cast? Yeah, I met My wife does a lot of thrift ng. Yeah.

She'll go to like an estate sale and then come home with stuff that I don't want. And it feels like every single estate sale has arrowheads for sale. Is there any way like for the layman to look at something like that and identify if it was created by someone like you or someone five thousand years ago? Yes, yeah, definitely. So if there are little chips sort of you can see that there's this chip is still on there, it's just a flake that didn't come off all the way.

That's from modern napping. Those little chips, while they occurred in the past, come off after ten thousand years or something. Um. So if you see those little chips, you know that's modern around the edge, around the edge. Um. Now, there are ways to get rid of those chips. And because there's been some cases of people, you know, being less than honest with the famous there's a guy that duped

everybody at a bunch of Clovis points. His name was Woody something would he Blackwell duped a bunch of dupe some museums and shipped on Clovis points. Right. Well, he sold a group of of Clovis tools that he said was a Clovis cash. Um and this is all published in the New Yorker magazine. Um to uh collector nimforest fan and oh, I don't know the fan was involved in this cover him extent. That's like, that's like Spencer's best friend treasure. Did you find the treasure? But it

was like sixty miles from here there you go? So what do he try to sell artifacts that he made as genuine Clovis artifacts of force? Fan? I think it was like dollars and um, the transaction went through and uh it was then discovered that these were modern replicas. How they figured out, Well, you know how he got around the you know how he got around the loose flake thing a rock tumbler really and you know how he got duped? Check how do you know the story

better than me? Well he used Brazilian stone um as I'm sorry now how he got how he got uncovered? Yeah, so one of the Clovis points or maybe two of them were made from stone from Brazil, and uh, that stone, I guess only shines a certain way when you have a UV light over it, and so that like Clovis,

folks in North America weren't using stone from Brazil. But I heard another part of yeah, there could be other One of the parts of the story is someone had a chemical analysis done on the point and they found some crazy coding material on it. Yeah, So then they were able to find out what the coding material was, went to the manufacture. Who does he sell the coding material to? One of his clients are the people to

make rock tumblers? Yeah, And then it led to saying that he was because he's trying to create this like ten thousand years of laying around. Look, and do you know the collector Tony Baker? You ever hear him? I Tony, I stayed at his house. He's well, we probably did my owning. Yeah, no ship. Yeah, Tony, it was a huge loss when he passed. I guarantee he slept in the same gustro many times. He told me a story where he was at in the state sale and saw

a fulsome point Bolo tie. Did you hear the story? No, I have not heard this thing. He said, that's real. Bought the bolo tie for a couple of bucks, took the stone off, and on the back of the stone was you know how they put like why it out and in a label. Yeah, it was a museum like it was missing from your museum and he found the museum. Yeah, that's awesome. It was a museum collection piece that gone missing and someone put it on a Bolo tipe, you know,

and hiding in plain sight. He said, one look and he just knew. He's like, just something about it. He's like, because that's the real point. Yeah, no, that's it. And one other way to get those little chips off, not that I'm condoning fraud in any way, is you can put the napped point in water and then put it in the freezer and then when the ice gets under that little chip, it pops it off and then you know, so those chips are going to be around the outer edge.

You're saying, um, well, if the flake gets driven across the face of your tool, you might get him in the middle too. But either way you can get him off if you know what you're doing it. But it has it'll look fresh it'll look fresh. And I have never found anything of significance in the field. I would

just like to say that. So because that's a danger for me, because well, because I can make this stuff right, and so I always have to be careful that, you know, anything I make doesn't end up in the archaeological record. And so UM, when I make pieces, I always signed them with a diamondscribe. UM. So if anyone ever does microscopic analysis on it, um, you'll see my initials in the year on the piece. Um, so they never get mixed up. So okay, speaking of which, Um, you know,

before I came, I did a little research. I saw you have a birthday coming up, so I thought I would make that little birthday gift. Um. So you can just unroll it a little careful, oh man, explain what we're looking at here. So this is a type of knife called a salutary and laurel leaf. And and this is probably one of the most difficult things to do in three million years of napping. Um. They're super thin. The flaking is really described as is very bold. You

see all the flakes are really large. And uh, this was a style of of knife for point that was made about eighteen to twenty one thousand years ago in Europe yep. And it's thought to be the pinnacle of stone tool working and so even cooler than it depends. It's just who you ask. But they're pretty cool, so I thought happy, But yeah, not at all. It's gorgeous. So are you gonna call the salutary and laurel leaf? And it's signed. So if I see on saw the bees,

that's right. Where's where is it signed? So it's signed. You have to look at it just right. But um on this flake scar, there's m i e in around this. One could steve like a Christmas hamd with that thing. Oh yeah, it's gonna be her yeah, or mammoth. It's gonna be here with it. Yeah. No, I don't want to mess it up and drop it. I still don't see it. We may need direct life. But so you do it really fine? Yes, I do it fine, so it doesn't sort of detract from but it's in there.

It's in there. Okay, thank you. Man's gorgeous. Tell me against slutree and what leaf laureally because it's the shape of laurel. Yeah, now I just stab that the brody. It did work. Well, so that's the thing I was so nervous bringing because I made one for Current too, because she's done so much work like getting everything set and um, she has a Clovis one. Um. And so I'm gonna ask this for Steve is KREM's nicer. Well, they're different cultures. This is this is hafted onto Antler

like a split fork. Um. You can imagine like stab Broughty between the ribs, turn around and give Larry Cohen Merlein, Larry Moan curly with those ant guy in front of you with the he'd be like he'd bleed to death blind. Yeah, just just him. I mean, already pinned filler. All right, let's let's progress along. Let's get to the magic part.

Yeah alright, Well I want to see you do the thing that has baffled anthropologists about why did they knock the thing when there's a twenty five chance just going to ruin the whole different thing. So you've already done all the work. Yes, I brought several because the other thing too about flint napping is you want to bring backups because if you break it, you can quick just like pull out another one. You'll get to go. So we've got, you know, different stages, and I've got one

that's basically ready to flute. So I do need to do a little bit of preparation on this thing to get what's called the fluting nipple. Yeah, that's a good title for the show, the Fluting Nipple. That's gonna be my second podcast. Um. But so they'll just take a second to get this going. But what's this thing they talk about. Clay had some guy talking about that they may be used lever no evidence for that, but it's just reverse engineered or whatever you call it. They're like

it would work. So there's a Flinton napper, Bob Patton who I mentioned earlier, who you can he could make Clovis points and Fulsom points and sort of do them the way I do and just hit him directly. You don't need a lever um. So you're not buying it. No, I'm not buying it. Okay, So you got your clos point and it's pretty well like a clous point, except

for it's missing the diagnostic fluke channel. Flukes that run the length the con the concave channels that will run the length of the point and give it its signature. Look it's significance and then not only that, but diagnostic like no one else made them like that. Um, that's also untrue. So who else is making them so amazingly in the Saudi Arabian Neolithic? Okay, local folks, oh, no, go on, But the Saudi Arabian Neolithic they are making and fluting points. So just in the same way that

like birds and bats and insects all can fly. But that doesn't mean they're all causes. They're not because this convergent evolution. Same thing in stone tool technology. Uh, you can get convergent evolution really like they arrive at the same the same solution. Um. Alright, So what I'm gonna do now is I'm actually gonna start to pressure flake this a little bit now. Before you do, I want to ask you a couple of things. Yeah, how long

were you at this before you tried this? Probably seven or eight years before you tried knocking out, before you tried fluting a point? Yes? Yeah? And is it easier to flute a Clovis point than a Folesome point or is it the same? Hard there is different because the falsome point runs all the way to the end. It does run a presumably got to do some more work on it afterwards. Right, Well, so there's a there's two

issues there. Um. With fulsome, you in some ways have a better chance of success because you're doing a lot more preparation ahead of time to get that long flute. Um. The other issue is because falsome points are shorter, you don't have as much bending um in the point, which could break it. Now. Fulsome points are really hard to flute. So just like clos, you make one of those, Um, I've got one here we can see, and you knock

those out. I knocked those out. That's beautiful, man. The problem with falsom those it takes more time, like a lot more time. That's a beautiful point. Way more time, yeah, because it's you're doing so much preparation to basically create a morphology on the point so you can get those long channels. It just takes a much longer. And you know how you should talk close about how they weren't mammoth on. Yeah, these guys are bison hunters. They are

definitely bison hunters. And Clovis were bison hunters too. Yeah, So and that's the thing. We just going back to the Clovis hunting. We get statistically more impact scars with Clovis points associated with bison than we do with mammoth. And the reason for that is because they are hunting bison and not hunting mammoth. So all right, let me just that's a beautiful point. Man. Okay, you're back at the now. There you got you got like not an

early man tool. So while it depends so not Clovis is man off copper, we actually get the earliest metal tools anywhere in the world in North America from the Great Lakes. Yeah, exactly. It's called the Old Copper culture and earlier. Um. Now, I could use an antler time to do this, but you have to constantly re sharpen antler times pressure blakings. It's just easier. So where's the time? Do it'll wear the antler time down? Yes? Yeah, And so you just gotta keep getting it the right shape,

so you're shaping the stone and the tool. Yeah, the butt, I'm with you. You have to get this fluting nipple, just the right shape fluting nipples, because when it's all prepared, you'll look at it. I don't know if it looks like a nipple, but that's what they call it just that motion alone is just really interesting. I mean you're just kind of like pressing down on the edges. Well.

Pressure flaking, unlike percussion, which is what I was doing earlier, does take a little bit of strength, especially if you're driving flakes um across the face of whatever piece you're flint napping. So I'm gonna drive a few pieces off right now. You're gonna not do pressure, but you're gonna do some striking. No, no, I'm going to do pressure um where I'm gonna really just push these things far

across the face. So really it's all on the legs now. Oh, Like you're getting your hand hour by Like basically you're like Suzanne Summer's net thigh mass right now. I don't know if I should be as old a references comes in the eighties or earlier. So you're like pressing on the top side of that it's breaking off, its breaking off the bottom side that more time. Sorry, I'm too busy thinking Susanne the Summer's thighs, I don't know. So so you're just basically pressing on like the top side

and it's busting off the bottoms. Yeah, So what I'm doing, Yeah, I'm pushing on the edge and basically I'm pulling the flake and then but your strength coming like you're like pitching it between your legs just to drive your hands together. That's exactly right. So so a lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. So let's see here we do any of those nappins and in bloodshed always they get the

drinking at those. Yeah, I mean like there are some tear We actually just uh finished the survey where we surveyed flint napper injuries from around the world, and they're real bad. I mean, people are getting cuts on every parther body. People are using hitting moose bullets in and their nuts like it's get any for moral artery. Uh, I can see messing around some between your legs and

sharp things. People getting flakes in their eyes. Yeah, so we're gonna we're doing the statistical analysis now to look at patterns and and where people are hurting themselves the most, and so all right, hold on, Yeah, you might be able to come up with something that relates back to early man would be like, you know the reason that they were like this was I read this thing. I

can't remember what book it was. The guy was talking about, Um, the injury sweets that they would see on neander Thal bones, and this guy became curious about the suites of injuries they would see on them, all the fractures and oh that. And he got to talking to a physician who works on bull riders and they found this, like, uh, like a direct correlation between the the types of bone fractures on the hander dolls and the types of bron fractures

on bull riders. And he came up with this idea that they had what he had described as a confrontational style of hunting, like that they're in there mixing it up. You know, maybe they took one shot with something and then jumped and then jumped right in. Okay, I'm gonna jab a little bit with this stone point and everybody's gonna pilot. I'm gonna get him pissed with this stone point his game. Remember, we don't want him to move too much. So lots of hemorrhoids too, because the bull

riders got those. Yeah yeah, all that hem roidal tries tissue in decays over the years. Man. Alright, so we're almost there to flute this thing. And what's that nipple called again? The fluting nipple. I should be able to remember that. All right, So now this flute probably will go to about there because you have to knock out two flutes, so that you're just prepared the first flute, or you've you've prepared both flutes. No, no no, this is

the first one. Okay, So then you're gonna go back to the drawboard and prepared and do another nipple exactly. And is your nipples specific to the face you're working on? Yes, okay, so you've nippled it for the what right now? Is the top or bottom when it's laying on your legs? It will be for like the flute is gonna be left laying on your leg is gonna blast off into the air. The flute will come off my leg or be against left one. Okay, you all right tell me

before you do it. Yes, I will. And just because it's a bit always risky, I just want to make sure it's right now. What, Um, there's a high likelihood this will fail. Um could be it's like but I mean, my I haven't messed up in a while, so I probably just screwed myself by saying that. Um. But which is why I always bring extras. Failure success failure. So the failure you mean that whole thing just breaks. Yes, the whole thing will just shatter. If it doesn't break,

you can happen either way. Are you doing it right now? No? No, no, I mean that you always strike off the flute here. I'm just trying to get the angle a little bit. There we go. That's much better. I could definitely see how you'd cut yourself pretty good. Mess around with the stuff. Oh yeah, no, it can be real bad. So could you I'm sure you've thought about this many many times. Could you describe, like, what do you think the situation this is happening in back in like Clovis times and

I found a juncture he's getting out. Are you in a relaxed situation like sitting on a knob looking over her? Well, you wouldn't be. I don't think you'd be making these like in the moment. Well, the Maze site, the MASA site that we we had some people on top of the Mace site and the ma site they think is a flint nap and hang out hundreds like a little maze top. No sign of campgrounds, like, no signs of tent rings. It was a little lookout perch, hundreds and

hundreds and hundreds of points, thousands of flakes? Were you there with? I was at that site with okay now with my okay um because Boss Meltzer I think was up there too. But their theory there is it was you could sit up there and double dip because it's a lookout. But they're like, it just seems like people sat up there in nap flint. It was like too

far from water or something. Again, you had to walk up on this high little lookout, and they think it was like the boys up there shooting the ship, napping waiting to see if something comes through. It was a nap in. Yeah, that's right, the first one, well, early early napping. Yeah, right, you're ready to go. I'm going to get ready to go for it. I've never done it with wires and stuff. Can you do a drum roll? You can? Oh yeah, take that thing off. You're really

getting hung up in there. Man. It looks so unclosed, like they have that headphone on the headset on. Alright, So oh tell me what you can do before you do it. So what I'm gonna do is you have to when you flute it, you have to hold it a different way because you want to basically drive the flute off but cause as little bending as possible. So if I was to hit the flute off just straight down with the point flat, that would basically cause this

thing to snap. Now, by holding the point vertically, I'm hitting straight down along the length of the point, which doesn't cause as much sort of bending. You gotta wrapped in there obviously, so you don't just get ask your hand to bits. Yeah, because it's just a it's like grip and protection. If that happens. Though, it's a shame that this is a podcast, like because my demos for my classes and stuff, that's all they're waiting for me to hurt myself. Um and so see, I'm just I'm

cheering for you right now. Man, I want this will be the first time I've ever seen a flute as much as I've talked about. Oh god, no, I feel like there's pressure. I don't want a positive vibes. Okay, he's getting ready to hit his fluting nipple with a moose and elk candlery moose. You know, I don't know what the hell this is. It's that's how you're gonna do it. Yeah, So and I do a few practice swinging that like he's got a black jack and no

ship really perfect, Look at that. That was badass, man. So you do all those practice runs basically a line everything hang up, um, and then you just you just sort of just tap it so I can do the other one now the other side and wrist breaking it again. You can just picture up on the maze site like, yeah, well, you know it's funny. Dave Meltzer, right, who's been on this August show. He worked at a site as a

teenager called Thunderbird in Virginia. And at Thunderbird it was next to a river and they were making close points. Now the river gently flooded and basically covered and buried everything perfectly at this Thunderbird site, so much so that you can like kind of see where people were sitting with the rocks around them. Yeah. Now, at one of the spots where someone was sitting, you find the base of a Clovis point and the tip it's thirty away. Basically,

someone got piste. They broke their clothes point and shucked it. Um. Yeah, weren't they able to somewhere like at Lindenmeyer something they were able to match some of the channel flakes. Oh yeah, man, all right, so I guess I'll I'll do the other one now, Okay, the second one is gonna be harder because it's thinner. No it is, yeah, so more pressure. It needs to be a different kind of like a better drum roll. Do they ever do a double drum roll?

Two people doing it? One thing too, is I'm gonna have to do a little bit more work builds right like one guy starts, another drummer comes in. I'll have to do just a little bit more work because this is a little flat and when it's when it's flat, the flakes don't go as far. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna drive flakes off and basically try to create a little convexity, little a little hump. Oh this is a deep, dark, well flinting nat man. Well, I think this is the thing, right, is all this

making the technology is really great? But what where the big breakthroughs have come since we founded the labb At Kent State is figuring out how this stuff was used and more and more we need to start like getting this stuff out into situations where hunters are using it and so we can understand the science behind That's how this works because it's different like have people use stuff you've made to kill deer for example. No, So everything

we've done has been in the lab. So what we really need now is to balance those very controlled lab experiments with the reality of actual hunting. So, and this goes back to the mammoth as as well. So what we would love to do, and if you guys are game and we can somehow get access to it, is when an elephant dies, either at a zoo or if there's some cul somewhere, um, I will make all of the Clovis weapons and tools and we could hurl them into that dead elephant to see how well they penetrate.

And you'll get someone to volunteer that up on the career. And so but if we could, if we could, potendially, we would learn scientifically so much because we don't even really understand the intercostal distance between the ribs of things like elephant, how much space is there on average between prints and stuff like how deep is it to the heart.

We could find no evidence or data on the distance from the outside of an elephant to its lungs or its heart or deliver all that stuff needs to be measured. So if you guys were game at some point, we would love to do that. We would create all the tools and you guys could spend all day hurling at an elephant. Well, I just gotta find a zookeeper with a dead elephant freezer tag here in North America or uh, you know what you want to listen to. We did a podcast episode with a guy named Dr ed Asby.

Here's not a doctor, like he's like a medical doctor, but anyways, he he um to test a lot of his stuff and he was looking for that same thing, like how can you get a bunch of stuff? He would go to where they're doing game farm cling. Yeah, yeah, and at game farm cling sites he was able to like launch projectiles into stuff that was going to die anyways, whether he was there or not. Kind of thing. Well, there was a situation George Frizzen, who was a wylming

rancher also a scientist, I don't know. Yeah, he published, but he was an archaeolgis in the National Academy of Sciences as well, and he he went over to Africa and through Clovis points at mammoths, but for whatever reason did not record elephant. Yeah, mamoths are dead, You're right. Yeah. He did not record how deep they penetrated or anything like that. He basically just said, like they can puncture

the hide a little bit. Um that the papers kind of strange, but like you're like, he but what about Yeah, but it was nine and so maybe it just it wasn't as rigorous. But so anyway, the point is we need to hurle Clovis points at dead elephants to better understandings, like a very solvable problem. Yeah, and it does. Um, alright, so I'm just gonna do some pressure flak in here. We had a great uh uh professor at the University of Montana. We're taking early people's in Montana, their native

people's in Montana. That sounds like a good one. It was a good one. But one of the first examples just kind of get people's heads thinking about the past and how they relate to present day. It was um he'd had a site up on the back of the overhead projector desk, had a site up on the overhead projector and it was a little triangle of um flakes and he's like, Okay, what is this and you're looking at it and there's like a circle of flakes, but

there's um like a center point with no flakes. There's um two points running off from the center point with no flakes on it. And he's like, what is this? What is this? What is this? And what it is is the shadow of a man sitting there napping. Right, It's like, right, you're like brushing a little off your legs. You're brushing, you know. And so there's like this core area with a bunch of flakes, and it was ship

really it was such a good thing. Like you could hear the whole class be like, ah, I gotta say, this is refreshing to my normal sort of like popular napping because I've napped on History Channel and Discover channels. They always have me like sitting in the middle of the woods by myself on a log in the studio. Yeah, but also too, it's so weird because like anyone who thinks of me napping and they seem they just think

that that's what I do. I just go by myself into the woods and like Makestone Hippy as it goes to those nappings just behind himself and um, so this is this is refreshing. So you're getting your other I'm working the other nipples. I'm preparing the other footing. I shouldn't say working the other nipple. That doesn't sound right. I like it. That would be a good name for the show, working the other nipple. We'll probably call it. I don't know what's the other one. We hand boppers

and nappers and nappens. Drum roll, phil Man, No way, I don't. Don't do the drum roll until he starts doing the practice swings. All right, one of the chances now failure right on the first flake. It's got to go up for the second flake. I would think so because it's thinner. But I mean to be honest, I don't think we've ever tried to estimate that. Are you

feeling good about it? Um? I never feel good about it, just because a lot of pressure when also too, like you wanna sort of have your eye on on the ball and no time for feeling right when you're doing those practice swings. Are you imagining yourself inching ever? Like not inching millimeter ing ever closer to the strike is

that you're doing. That's what you want to do? You want to basically the first couple of ones, I'm lining up, and then I'm getting closer and closer and you just want to catch, so you're like like, okay, get warmed up, closer, closer, closer, closer, closer, close, closer, and it's gonna hit and it's gonna barely hit. Yes, yeah, all right, got the antler, got it. It's practice swinging a little more. Dressing practice, swing practice, swing practice. I'll stop.

I like the challenge, so I don't need to do that. I don't think it's adding any of the show looking nervous. Oh yeah, second one broke and so what do you think went wrong on that twing? Steve went wrong on dude, it's a chance, per face. I think it's a one in two. Ozzy, He's gonna bust the thing. It's like when Steve's like, shoot shooting. I mean, to be honest, exactly is the problem what I've just created? Here we find in the archaeological record, So you know, one this

was this was my fault. I think what I did was because I basically I hit um sort of two at the wrong angle. I should have hit directly down rather than now your Monday morning quarterback. And yeah, now when like if someone was doing that and you've got that front piece. There is that still usable for anything? Oh yeah, we could easily turn that into close point whatever. So and I've done that, not a total No, it'd be like, well screw it now, he got out of

the mud. Anyway, you're napping as fast as you can. Like so, but yeah, so what you just saw was an actual archaeological up, actual occurrence. Yeah. So besides you um needing dead elephants, they've already died, already died anyways. And people want to contribute to research. Yeah, and like not just really like a pertinent question about contribute to research all the things. That's like a pertinent question about history, humanity.

What are capabilities of kind of like one of the great historical mysteries, like what happened to all those big gas animals? Climate change? But the climate changed all the time, dude, So that is an assumption though, no, no no, no, no, it's an assumption that the end of the plisuscene climate

change is similar to climate changes of the past. And and there there seems to have been and again I'm not an expert on climate change, um, but uh, the change that occurred at the end of the last ten thousand years may have been much more draft dramatic than what occurred in other interglacials. Um there were interglacial periods that got so warm that the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty today would have been underwater. It was that warm during some of the intergratitional and the ship lived

through that. But whether or not that caused some sort of detriment to population sizes or that would have then when they get to the next one. So it becomes almost like a degradation over long time, because we know from you know, other time periods that extinctions occur all the time. Everything goes extinct eventually, so it could just be whittling away over tens of thousands, if not hundreds

of thousands of years long. Me to hit me another zinger, bringing up Okay, I got a zinger crawling from mercy. Mercy humans okay had been in Africa millions of years. Their ship didn't go extinct, that's true. Why is that because they co evolved with human hunters. Their elephants didn't go extinct, or big o rhinods didn't go extinct, or they didn't hunt elephants. But you're saying they didn't hunt them here. Yeah, I hope this is real. I don't I don't understand my own point. But it's a thing

that blitz Creek people like to bring up. That's like the whole basis of the blitz Creek. It was like they're like, look what hapens all over the world? Right, humans show up and then there's a contemporaneous die off. Okay, and you're like the mora, what's that big gass bird in New Zealand? The moa moa and the Maori people right once ship in Australia, Okay, big birds go away. Islands get hit hard, and then you go and be like, but in Africa they kept their camel, they're hippo, they're rhinos,

their elephants. How else do you explain that, Well, they didn't hunt them. There's as far as I know, there are no hunting sites. Yeah, there's no hunting sites in Why did the global climate change not kill those elephants? Well, because, I mean, climate change in North America is a different thing in like a northern hemisphere than it would be in the equator. Like climate change hits different parts of the globe differently, and so if climate change in Africa

was not as dramatic. Um animals can survive there in a way that they wouldn't in North America. But the but the mega fauna in the equatorial west western hemisphere went away the equatorial western hemisphere. That's yeah, that's true. So it's not an equator issue. I should read a paper well, but the issue. But it's also not an Africa issue either. I mean, nor South America is different than Africa. So the point was just that there's different

areas that could be affected differently. But you do admit that it's an interesting wrinkle. And I'm not saying too that we have answers to any of this of um and And to be honest, I think this Clovis point issue penetration thing, how deep they penetrate Like at the end of the day, it is an engineering and physics question. Is it possible in some way to get a point

this size going at thirty one per second? Is there some trick that clovised people had to maybe have these things penetrate deeper than what we can do today and to kill thousands and thousands of mammoth is that possible? There are any more or less to kill? And so like this issue is not closed, and no one should think it is closed. Um, it's an interesting question that we need like lots of different scientists, and we need lots of dead elephants. We need lots of dead elephants.

But I think the cool thing about experimental archaeology is that, look, there's lots of flint nappers out there. People can learn to flint nap. These are experiments you could potentially do in your backyard. Right, So if you doubt my results or anyone else's, like, there's no reason why you can't buy some Clovis points and half them and see how deep they penetrate, you know, various media that you've got

in your back carcasses, whatever. That's a good point. Someone could be like, you've always got it all wrong, and they have the thing up, and then he can write you let them be like, hey man, here's what I think what's going on. Well, And the thing too is at the end of the day, I don't give a flying rats ass if I'm right or wrong. I want to know what happened. And I think that's the difference between a scientist that is committed to evidence and one

that's not. Like, because even if you're wrong. Your hypothesis is incorrect. Being incorrect is a contribution because you've shown that other scientists shouldn't go down that avenue of inquiry. So um no, I I encourage others to to test what we found and what others have found. And this issue definitely is not settled. It could even be your freshman high school science project. Kidna. Just say, I got

one last question. Before you tell people how to find you and how to apply for your do you take on students? Yeah, definitely, we've got You've got too many applicants already. We have quite a few. You you're not looking for more applicants? Well, we always welcome out. Um uh, here's my question for you. And this gets into your heart and soul and integrity as a as a scientist. Uh. I remember saying to a researcher one time. They're talking about a project, and I said, well, what do you

hope happens? And he told me the reasons why that that's not really a thing that you're supposed to do. You know, Oh my god, that makes sense because it cause a bias. Right, But when you were doing it with the uh, when you're doing the work with the stone points there has been some little part of you and maybe you can do successfully put it aside. There has been some party it's like rooting for the point. Look, I want to know. I mean, like you gotta be

kind of like. I went on a PBS national documentary on the People in America's and I said on national television, the Clovis point could take down any ice age beast. Like I thought for a really long time that that's what Clovis points could do. And I said it on National TV. Um, the evidence at the moment does not support that hypothesis. So I changed my mind based on the evidence. Um. But some little party was kind of the kid and he was rooting for the point. Yeah,

and and there may be again. Like I said, at the end of the day, this is a physics question and an engineering question. Maybe there's some physics or engineering trick that Clovis folks understood about their weaponry that we have not unlocked yet that will make their their points more deadly and lethal than they currently are. In the lab, got it all right? Tell people what how to kind of find you remind everybody where you're at and what sorts of things you're working on that that might be

of interest to our audience. Yeah, So we're at the Kent State Experiments Archaeology Laboratory, and uh, we're working on understanding ancient technologies made out of any material ceramics, stone, metals, leather, whatever, um. And we just want to understand how this stuff was made and how it worked. And once we can understand how this stuff was made and how it worked, we can understand why it appears the way it does in the archaeological record, and we can understand the evolution of

technology over the last three million years. Tell me about the primal Points project you're involved in. So as any scientific field matures, it starts to contribute to society. So physics is a very old field and now we have all sorts of societal benefits from physics, and same with

biology and medicine. Well, experiments archaeology is relatively young, but we feel that it should be starting to contribute to society and in different ways, and so we start to think how could that be, And so what we decided to do was design a new type of broadhead that performs similarly to modern broadheads but looks like ancient chip stone ones. So this way you can go hunting bow hunting now and and hunt a barker or whatever with

a Clovis point or a notched archaic point. And so we've actually got examples of the technology where essentially what we do is we've got aluminum casts of actual stone chipped artifacts or arrowheads. And then what we do is, through a special pouring technique, we can put a steel blade on the inside of it. UM. So it's got the same razor sharp edge and the durability of a modern broadhead. UM. So you know, you can and it

screws into modern arrow shafts. Uh, you know, just the way any other broadhead would UM and so, but it would look like a chip stone one can you make? You make a foolesome one. We can make any time period, so you can actually tailor your bow hunt UM to

the area you're going to. So if you're going to Europe, you can take a European style um of of ancient arrowhead, or if you're going to Australia or Africa, take an African style or anywhere, right, so you can tailor you can just got the weight, it's got the way aerodynamics of stone, but it's got the sharp en durability of steel and modern broadheads. So when are you gonna make a folsome one? We can make those right now. Well not here in the studio, but we could make we

could make one. Yeah, yeah, definitely flinging it. So that's no problem. Are you on social media? I hate social media? Yeah, so I'm just it's one of my roommates was involving You're not like at napping or no, no, no, Um, that'd be a good social network. Listen, man, this is all kinds of bad ship can say about social media. But if you had a social media site and it was like, hey, check this point out, here's what we think is going on with this and blah blah blah,

I'd subscribe to that that. And I'm kind of a liar like our Lab does have a Twitter account, Um, but I don't. I personally, I try to avoid social media when I can. Um do. Wild Turkey Doc man, there's a guy wild Turk like Mike Chamberlain. Wild Turkey Doc. He has a social media channel. He shares his research. It's fascinating. I think that they shouldn't be allowed to have any social media accounts besides his social media that's pretty good. Yeah, he shares his research academic Twitter is

pretty cool. And then he's got like they'll put a tracking device on a turkey and he'll public and just on social media he'll have like, what all the turkey was up to that? Yeah, it doesn't need to be like it's not like, it doesn't need to be you talking about I don't know, remile in your kitchen. It could be like, uh about stone stuff. Yeah, no, that's true, that's true. Um, but yeah, I don't know why just social media makes me nervous. Well for good reason, but

there's there's power in it as well. For now, people can email us questions that we forward to. Yeah. For now though, if people have a question for you, I have an email address. You want all these emails? I mean they can find you anyway. Well, let him go through the hass little find if now sending dawns and in the esteemed Corey Calkins will be like, I want to put a clover's point through a car door. You're telling me car door? All right, man, thanks so much

for coming on. Thanks for my beautiful knife. Yeah it's lutrean laurel leaf laurel you and thank you for having me. This is an awesome. Super appreciate all the stuff you brought. Man. Yeah, it's gonna be fun going back. Baggage claim they were. I was like, what the hell is in here? Yeah, for sure. Just just my weapons, just my weapons, house Stone, all right, man, thank you very much. Hey, thank you