Ep. 291: Hiding from Bulls

explain to everyone the line one turkey call. We gotta think of it like it's gonna be the line one, but like maybe like the we'll think of some other things to add on to the name. But the concept of the line one turkey call. So this is your baby that you brought to me. And at first I'm like, why is it doesn't matter? Why does anybody care where your turkey call comes from? Right, it's just another turkey call.

But Steve had this idea he brought to me. He thought it would be cool to go out to a property and harvest the tree that the turkey call was ultimately made out of. But more so than just doing that, it was a document the process of us cutting the green tree off of the stump, us, taking it to the mill, us, then taking it to the kiln um, getting it dried out, and then turning that um specific tree into a specific set of calls. So um, I am a believer. Now. The more we talked about this

and I've seen that, I am. Yeah. It was a pretty good idea, Steve. I'll give you that. At first, I didn't like your idea. Oh you actively didn't like it. I didn't. I just didn't think it was worth it the effort to like build. But then the more we worked, I'm seeing why this is such a cool project. Well, I shouldn't have doubted you. Yeah, Jason found a guy, a friend of his, who had it wasn't even by

walnut black walnut standards, a huge black walnut. No, but the fellers we were talking with over there estimate that there's a thousand turkey calls hiding that black walnut tree. Yep, yeah, pretty straight and not all the limbs in that that bottom twenty feet. So we'll get a good yield out of that that tree that we found. So, um, what was it shortly after the fourth of July? Me and you jigger season? Yeah? Do I know that? I know

the chiggers and ticks were alive, very alive in Kansas. Uh, flew to Kansas something my good buddies property there and Steve cut down probably a sixty seventy ft walnut, and I cut down an O s Age orange or our ultimate plan. And we're only building as many calls as we can get out of these two trees or combos that we can get out of these two trees. Yeah, and we feed as shy as the tree. Yeah, with a drone, it's like you really get intimate with the tree.

Oh yeah, you watch it. You watched like a huge canopy and then this tree just falls out of It's pretty. Um, so we're gonna we're gonna offer a pop call. We don't know exactly what playing surface yet. Um, we're still kind of going through that process, but we do have. We cut down a Sage orange hedge also known as what was the third but man, it's got it's like

it's like a bourbon. It's got like five millions. Yeah, So basically most people know it as a hedge or an O s Age orange burdock it's but it's better known as O Sage orange in the coal making world. So we're gonna do a one piece O Sage striker and paired up with the black bowl up pot and it's gonna be very very limited um in the run. But then we haven't figured out the legal on this.

But well, okay, so it's called the line one turkey call, and they'll be numbered sequentially, um like when you buy a print seth and what I'm talking about because his wife to be is a cells prints the paintings k Ray John's. That's right on Instagram. No one's gonna know how to spell that. Just search Kelsey Johnson Kelsey Johnson Instagram. You see her wildlifefire. She sells prints that are numbered numbered turkey calls. Now we already had an offer him.

I right, we did. Yep. Someone's trying to pre empt and buy the number one line one call. But we might use the number one line one call for our

land Access initiative. Maybe I like that idea and auction ad off and use that as a as a fundraiser to do access enhancement projects with the rest will sell, but we want to try to figure out some legal way, Like with all them ping pong balls, you a ping pong ball bubbler yep, that that are like numbered one through thousand and then pull a ping pong ball out and if that's your number of your call, you get to go hunt and sit on that stump and call

turkeys from that stump. Yep. And I think that you would probably be able to kill a turkey from that stone exactly well from the black wall in no stags. We could. I killed my turkey this year a half a mile from it. So the property is great, And that was kind of we didn't kind of get to the whole idea and we'd go hunting with you. Yeah, me and Steve will be on that hunt, calling, doing whatever we need to do for you on that hunt.

But the idea was this, you know, tree a turkey line one is that you would then go back use that same call on that property to kill the turkey on that stone. Yeah, on that stump. Me are close to that? No, nope, on the stone. The first set up on the stuff, The first setup is on the stump, and then whatever happens happen. But it starts out on the stone. Okay, I could I could buy into that. So where's the wood at now? We went? So we we cut the tree down on Jason's friends place. Do

you want to say his names? Yeah? Randy. I don't think you'd have a problem Randy Milligan's place there in Kansas. Um took it to a took it to Walnut, Kansas. Yep, these black walnut experts. Then they milled it. Yep. I got chickers real bad while they did it. I helped. And then they're gonna pallet. They're gonna pallet the piece, the usable pieces. Yeah, they're shipping them to you. Yep. So as of today, nine thirteen, they're they're all bundled up,

I believe, on two palettes. Um, we've got a trucker picking him up sometime this week and they're gonna be heading to Spokene, Washington too, sitting to kill him. And you're gonna film that, hope. Yes, yes, it's very logistically tough right now, but we will get this man. Just someone at the places needs to get their phone out and show that what it looks like. Yeah, exactly, will

be easy. Yeah, so you'll have a whole movie. Like sometimes you buy a turkey calling, it comes with a little piece of paper, this one comes with a movie. We'll have a little QR code on the back where if you want to watch where this turkey call came from Click on it. You get to meet all the trees. Yeah, it's gonna be solid. Uh, so stay tuned on that. That's gonna be all done when we're hoping, I mean we need to have them ready by January or sometimes I mean they've got it, but I think we're we're

still on pace. I just don't want to eat up all of our float time in the process. So the quicker we can get it through the kiln about sixty days. Um, we can get those machine out and stay tuned at the at the yet to be launched house auction house of Oodities where we raised money for access enhancement projects because we've already had a generous generous offer for the number one line one call. Uh, this podcast made a baby? Do you guys hear about this? Here? About what? How

this podcast made a baby? Did you hear what I said? This? Jester heard about it? Dirt you hear about it? Nope, I'm curious. Don't hear about it, Sam Jason at all? Now I'm really cars Oh that's great. So this guy rode in saying he was always kind of a half asked. First, he wrote in saying that the podcast made a baby. Then he says that he's not accusing us of breaking the sixth Commandment, so he's gonna give us the backstory.

He said he was always a half fast Minnesota hunter, but in recent years he's gotten way more serious about it. His wife, it used to be a vegetarian, Um has taken to pastoring him about being ready to start a family, and he was reticent. He took her out turkey hunting, called into turkey. She shot of Tom ran over there so fast. She kind of like, he said, she could have punted the hen that was with the time she

got there so quick. This got him, this, This inspired in him, This inspired in him, uh an appetite for reproduction. They formed a baby that night. Weeks later, he was cooking schnitzel with the turkey, and she said, do you need the oven? You should probably check in there before turning it on as he's making dinner. So he opened the oven and there was a single bun placed in the oven. That's cute. So there's that um on the

dock debate. So we've been talking a lot lately about this whole like fish and joyces dock thing, like people rigging up their docks. So that they like spray fisherman if you get near it, and like they hook up hoses and stuff to like spook fish and spray fisherman. And then some guy was like, that's not what it is. It's meant to keep ducks and geese. And then a bunch of people rolling like that's definitely what it is.

And they sent us this footage of like you'd come this guy that when you go by his dock in Florida, he comes out and bangs the dock with a broomstick and turns his boat motors on to churn up the water her because he doesn't anyone want fishing by his dock. And this woman who would always be real mean, that a woman named Joyce would be real mean to people

who are fishing. And they started a Facebook. They started a day on Facebook a group called fish Joyce's Dock, and they coordinated a day when everyone could go fish Joyce's Dock together. A listener wrote in to say that he's looking at statute three seven nine point one oh five of the Florida state statutes. In many states have these all point out this is Florida. That's a number for Florida's prohibits the harassment of hunters, trappers, and anglers.

Violations of this statute are subject to a five dollar fine and up to sixty days in prison. And it goes on to talk about in on any public lands. Okay,

so a person may not this is Florida's law. A person may not intentionally, within or on any public lands or publicly or privately owned wildlife management and fish management areas, or in or on any public waters, interfere with, or attempt to prevent the lawful taking of fish, game, or non game animals by another within or on such lands or areas, or in or on such waters, attempt to disturb fish, game, or non game animals, or attempt to

affect their behavior with the intent to prevent their lawful taking by another within or on such lands or areas, or in or on such waters. Goes on to say, the guy revving the boat and banging on the dock is such a clear violation of this law. It's ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, maybe sixty days in prison will change his mind. Can imagine in uh, Norm McDonald's me doing stand up. He has a big thing about when, uh, when how O J like got off for killing his um, his wife

and in in that waiter ron what's his name Goldman? Yeah, but then later he got in trouble for stealing sport, his own sports memor bilia. You know what this whole thing, you know O J with the jail, right O J? Like when like he killed his wife and the waiter and then you know, viciously stabbed him to death. Was acquitted. What year was all this? You guys are so some of you guys are so young, it like it blows

my mind. Remember sitting in the bar with Eric Kern watching O J drive around the Bronco, the white Bronco. I don't know if we're in there legally, but I feel like I was probably in there legally. Eight years old. I was at the bar called bone Nikki's watching the Juice drive around in that white Bronco and you were like it sounds like a good time, and you were

in a baby carriage or something. It wasn't baby carriage right, So like I was at the point I was young enough wher I didn't he began to care about it. I imagine that. I always say, yeah, I could be your daddy, could be beginning after Yeah, but like physical that I could be his daddy. I have to check the dates. I mean close. So point just a brief history lesson seth. There's a guy named O. J. Simpsons. I know the general wrote down, but I don't know

the details. He got He got away. He literally got away with murder. Yeah, I understand that went on to even write a book called If I Did It. I didn't didn't read the book. I didn't. I haven't read the book, but but it was the thing um Later he went in. He was trying to reclaim some sports memory abilia that some sports memorabilia guys were dealing, and he felt that it had gotten away from him in some way that shouldn't have been or they didn't have

legitimate claim to the memorabilia or whatever. He hires a couple of heavies and they come into a hotel room and they got a gun and they say, don't know one move and steal the sports memorabilia back by saying with a gun, don't know one move. They got kidnapping charges, and the judge that sentenced the Jews to prison built all the symbolic things into it, like restitution was you know,

for I can't remember all these symbolic gestures. She sentenced him on the anniversary of the murders or some such and like in like, I am sending you to jail for killing your wife basically, but I'm just using this as a sort of proxy to get to give you what you deserve, and like had like a fine that had something to do with the restitution to the family that he never paid from the civil trial. Okay, But then Norm McDonald the comedian and me doing stand up.

Norm McDonald has I'm I'm getting the background to Joyce's doc in Norm McDonald's thing need to In stand up, he has a bit where the juice goes to jail for stealing sports memorabilias, and he's talking about the hierarchy in jail about like what you're in for, like the severity of the crime sort of places you higher in the hierarchy, and the juice being in there for stealing

um sports memorability would place some very low hierarchy. And he would say, and he was imagining the juice being like, but no, man, I killed two people savagely with a knife, and the other prisoners being like, no, you didn't. We saw that trial. It's a glove don't fit. So point being, if you went to jail and you were in there for um, banging a broomstick on your own dock, I feel like you would be the bottom, the bottom of

the barrel in the prisoner hierarchy. Wait, so the dude who was banging the broom his name was Joyce or those two days that was another person? Yeah? Oh, but then a dock owner wrote in, because we like we try to be fair and balanced. Yeah, isn't it. Isn't there another news organization that goes by that we try to be fair and balanced journalistic. So in the spirit of journalistic integrity, here's a dock owner's perspective. Guy named

Tyler rode In. He as a cabin on a big, wide open lake and he likes to go and fish off his dock for pike, croppy, walleye and bass, and the kids like the fish out there. But what happens is people will come by and want a troll off the end of all the docks slower trolling, and he's saying it puts him in an awkward position where there will be five to ten minutes where he like can't make a cast as the boat is cruising along the front of his dock in order to like avoid confrontation.

And he said, sure, they bounced their cast and they they hit his boat with their lures in order to get good placement. They're bouncing off his dock, bouncing off his boats. I can live with all that, But he goes, I feel that if there's a fisherman standing on a dock, why would boaters not give him a wide berth? Yeah, he says. So it's like he can't put all the blame one place because he has seen UM really sort of like aggressively rude behavior from fisherman to another fisherman

who's a shore based fisherman on the end of a dock. Yeah, so he said, it's it's something that everyone should be mindful of the fisherman, like courtesy rule. I wanted to write a book about that. I think it'd be great.

Um in this No, it's just like the rules of I don't know, I don't know what I'll call it, but just like English the rules, and it'll be like just a small little book and what you can do would be boat ramp etiquette, fishing etiquette, I mean like rolling rolling down the Yellowstone River, I mean, there's been so many times when you see a guide or a recreational fisherman float right next to this guy with his daughter drowning bobbers and or John and worms with bobbers,

you know, and it's like I always made it a point, every made it a point to tell all my anglers to reel up or cast the other side. We roll out to the middle. Rollback keeps everyone happy, you know. Long ago, like just the same way we've been covering doc etiquette in Florida and Joyce and everything a long

time ago. We paid a lot, were covered in a bunch of with a bunch of listener feedback, and tried to refute covered and tried to refute this idea that there's a sort of hunter hierarchy and like archery hunters who are hunting deer acting really mad because they squirrel hunter would um be so rude as to be out in the woods during the rut? Yeah he should hang

it up, you know. Yeah. Yeah, And this is like little rules like if you see a guy in a tree stand while you're outse we're hunting, maybe don't walk underneath him. You just kind of screw You don't need to go back to your truck. You don't need to hang up your gun for the year. But maybe, like you know, yeah, no one needs to be throwing each other's bird's just I mean, I'm on board with squirrel hunting and being shut down during deer season. And is

that right? That's a controversial position you're taken. You can write. Are you gonna write a little book about it? It'll be a little bit bigger than Chester's book. But Chester, I'd like to get the first ride of the first ride of refusal on that on that book project. Okay, I think I need to check his contract. I think it could be a lengthy book. What can you do a book like that you can go into like you know, I mean it for myself, it has to be under the meat brand. Yeah, I feel like i'd go ask

you pretty hard. But hey man, I'm not trying to screw anyone over here. I'm not writing this contract. Etiquette should be not a book. Yeah, you could just have a whole little etiquette series. Yeah, I'd be illustrated by Kelsey or something, you know, chest around etiquette. Um oh, skunk oil. I was talking about my thing I'd like to do, which is how I'm saving a ounce of

skunk oil. And I was gonna wait till I had a vandett against someone and injected into the upholstery of their car, just for the big syringes, so you'd never you'd look and look and look, you could never find it. I haven't done it, but oh recently, we have a guesthouse, and there's a fridge. The's a dorm fridge in the guesthouse where we keep like just you know, for when

people are staying out there. Yeah, exactly like that. But I keep all my um diaphragm, calls, trapp and lure um uh, spear gun bands, leeches, worms, I keep all that in there and then just wait for my find out what I argued out. But I had my skunk essence in a bottle in a vacuum sealed bag, in a vacuum sealed bag, and I didn't. I haven't got my smell back since after I had COVID. I never smelled it, but apparently it was getting pretty ripe in there. And now I have a thumb tack to the outside

of my house. That's where I keep my skunk oil. If you go to my garage door and look to the left and stumb tack right there. You think you can I can't smell it. You think you could go bad, like in the heat and stuff. I mean, ain't any worse. But the a guy wrote in it so and then we talked about these dudes that did a skunk oil prank. Well, here's another guy that wrote it in about doing a skunk oil prank in Wyoming. They took a combination of dough yearn and skunk scent and as a prank at

their school. No helmet, he's not he didn't do this these other kids. He's blaming these other kids on it. These other kids went in and took doe year in and skunk cent sprayed it all over to school. It was so bad that some of the janitors in the morning experienced nausea and vomiting. One reported loss of consciousness. Holy shit. The incident was classified. The FBI got involved because the incident was classified as a chemical weapon attack. Oh God, a lot of trouble. One of the guys

lost a football scholarship that you dub Damn. They didn't go to jail. They had to do a ton of community service. No federal no federal time. Now that in my mind would land you high on the prison high art. Let me tell you what I did, Carmen van Biancy. We questioned like how to tell how to sex a beaver, how to tell what gender a beaver is without skinning it. And Carmen van Bianci has been on the show three or four times. She's a research biologists. She wrote in

She's sex beavers every day. Those our morning routine. She said, beaver sexing used to be a nearly daily occurrence for me when I worked down the methout is how you say that meth out? Yeah, methou Beaver project they would live trap. They would live trap problem beavers and move them into high mountain streams to study the before and after effects of beaver ponds to stream tempts and flow.

They would also use these problem beavers to restore channelized and degraded streams, which said the hard part when it goes to replacing to relocate in beavers because they don't stay put. But they would find that if you put a male and a female at a release site together, it would up the odds that those beavers would stay put. Meaning it's it's looking for a mate. That's perhaps sending them off into who knows where, So she says, hence

sex and beavers every morning. She says, as you probably know, tuxed tucked in next to the castor glands are the anal glands. Okay, by pal painting the cloaca at this little uni hole, you can get the anal glands to evert popping out of the cloaca, and it's shaped sort of like a little empanada. That's either sex. You then squeeze and work that anal gland until you milk out a secretion. If you do that and you're okay, you pal paid it and you get a dark, thick secretion

that smells like more to oil. That's a male. Do you get a thin secretion smells like old cheese female? She goes on to clarify, of course the beaver has to be restrained to do this. We designed a cone shaped canvas bag that we could put the beaver in nose first, and then wrapped tightly up like a burrito with their hind and sticking out. That's a different kind

of party. You have panadas burritos. Uh. Some more information, really good information on the we're covering how deer all have COVID, not all, but like a lot of surprising number of deer have COVID. And we covered that story, and I was mentioning, like, how do they if you weren't checking for code it earlier because he didn't know it didn't exist, right, how do you know what they

had before? You know what I mean? Like meaning, if you went out now and tested a bunch of deer and there's some marker that demonstrates COVID um but you don't have you can't compare it to anything. I just wondered about the likelihood of false positives or how does that actually work. I wasn't being incredulous. I was just being like, I don't know. It seems like a reasonable question.

Halfle Finger can we cover every week? We should come up with the theme song, Like Phil should work up something from when we talk about something that Hefflefinger told us, like halfle Fingers Corner feels like CNN. They'd call it like the Hefflefinger Report checking checking a strum up a couple of chords on the guitar. You gotta work that up, Chester Ale Finger have a finger? Oh you know, I don't know if we can say this yet I guess

we can probably say it. So I want to tease another thing we've got going on for our Land Access Initiative. We have a very famous might I say, probably the the like the leading country singer today has donated a guitar is donating guitar that he has used at live performances to our Land Access Initiative fundraising mechanism which is called the Mediator auction House of Oddities. So we will be able to auction that guitar and that for an

additional five thousand dollars. This is all just all goes to just like lands. So he's donating his time in the name of land Access for an additional five grand Chester will fly to your home in play song on that new guitar. Right Chester, he will visit your home and personally he's gonna be there for like ten minutes. He comes in, he'll engage in a very small amount of small talk. No, he comes in fresh from the airport. He will engage in a very small amount of small talk.

You can have whoever you want to be there, be there at a set time. Just will come in, do the song, and the coyote says who you and then do the whole song and then he leaves. It sounds kind of weird. It's kind of creepy. You know. My buddy Matt, he was a salesman and he was to talk about putting on his little boat peep costume. Now now when he really needed to make a sale. Have to have to get that costume for Chester to wear when he comes and does that? Just uh oh so

where was I? Yeah, a theme song for helfle Finger would be great, uh helf of Finger Road. And how this is true about the COVID thing. They they bank um serum. They bank samples from deer when they're doing other kind of deer research, probably just for this with this kind of thing of mine. So if you're like working up deer, you'll draw serums of blood and they bank vials of it, which is great thinking. So they

were able to go in and look at samples. What they did they went and looked at serum samples out of their archive dating back to two thousand and eleven and analyze those samples for antibodies really nothing. So they looked at all these samples from two thousand eleven. They looked at one positive from nineteen used a separate test, and it appears that that was a false positive. Half of finger says, it's pretty halfly read. The whole damn thing was then into this big meeting and stuff about it.

It's pretty clear that stars c o V two was not present in the deer heard before it goes on to say that, um, they can't find that no one has pointed to in any like any symptoms in the deer. What they're testing for is they're testing for antibodies produced in response to exposure six in this one study we were talking about. I think it was of the deer they checked in Michigan and it was over a hundred

I think UH had been exposed. That's pretty wild. I think if you traced it, you might trace it back to Doug Durren's farm because of buck Man juice. With buck Man juice, there's something about Doug. No one understands what it is. If Doug p's on a bush, deer like flock to it. If Doug wants to see what's going on, he puts a trail cam up. It goes out in front of that trail canra urinates on a bush. Every deer, every deer in Richland County will come in

to smell that buck man juice did he have? And my I got They these people want to get down to the bottom of this. They test Doug's urine and the bodies and then have to work up the genetics on it and see if that strain all these deer have all comes from Doug. Yeah, that gets, I mean that really gets. You're thinking, like, where are these deer got it from? Like Doug, it's someone who's real good

at hunting. If he's getting that close to a lot of deer, well maybe maybe it's captive deer that you know. People people are like work. You know, someone who has COVID is in in the barn working on him or whatever, getting them shots, put him out to pasture. They end up nosing wild deer through the fence. I like it. Do you do? You know how many angry emails are being generated right now about what Seth just said. That's gonna be the latest target of the captive servant industry

bringing on Duck's got to market his buck juice. That's yeah, that's extremely value. It's really something. He's even done things where he'll photograph a tree a bunch to show that nothing's there, and then he pees on the tree and everything shows he's got he's got like a like a b testing. He's like no one dear like this tree. Another item in the auction house of oddities. The thing of Buckman juice be a really good idea. Yeah, well to talk about man juice like a pot a pint

of buck Man juice. Yeah, there might be simple. I was just on I was just on Minnesota brand. Uh. There's a I use Uh. I buy a trapping equipment from what's that place called like Minnesota, Minnesota trap Line Products. They make the MB traps. I could go on there right now, Sam and buy Fox Piss, Bobcat Piss, Kyle piss. I don't see any reason you couldn't have I haven't seen it, yep. I don't see any reason you couldn't have some buck Man juice tonight. That's a great idea, man,

all right, dog, I'll give you. I'll give you a call and figure out how to work that up. Here's a good news story that came in. Uh. This was fed to me. No, No, my buddy Matt sent this to me. Texas this is the deadliest state when it comes to animal on human attacks five hundred and twenty. This is amazing. Five twenty people in Texas were killed by animals between nineteen and two thousand, nineteen. California's second place,

the most populous state. Bear in mind, the second place but a distant second two hundred deaths during that time span. The state that you think would be winning all this is only in third place. Florida m closely trailing California two seven deaths. What's the animals? I'm going to get to that. What do you think the safest states are? Two or to makes sense and one doesn't? New Jersey, New England state somewhere Rhode Island, Delaware, in North Dakota

m hm, yeah, I can see that not much folks. Yeah, yeah, you had a little population, but I feel like they kind of are out there mixing it up, like they're out and about Dakota. That can kill you. Snakes, well, guess guess what kills you in Texas? I know, but dogs like feral dogs, dogs, mountain lions, and snakes were registered among animals that cause deaths. We don't know that which caused the greatest number. Yeah, I suppose two d

one out of the five twenty people. Okay, oh yeah, so Rhode Island, Delaware, North Dakota during those twenty years, no reports of animals killing people. Oh that's significant. But see that's reported, so that who knows. But still I mean, like right, yeah, it's definitely if someone missed one. I

don't know. In Texas, dogs, mountain lions, and snakes. They don't do it relative to what But okay, two hundred one out of the five hundred and twenty deaths, we're from mammals, So not snakes for you people that aren't hip taxonomy. We're from mammals biting or striking a person perfection or like I could see if those feral hogs down there, sure tearing people up. Yeah, they did kill a person. Here's one for you, Phelps. You're ready to be shamed. I'm ready. I was explaining to Jason Felts,

who was who was? Ah, not adversarial to the knowledge I was given them, but had a lot of questions, and I was we're talking about areas like in in everyone knows that in in in hunting. In the hunting world, we speak of an area having good genetics, right, like you know, there's certain areas that we know produce um like for like uh consistently produced big box or big bowls, and people be like, man, that place has great genetics. And I was explaining that we did a podcast a

long time ago. I can't remember what number, so we should look up that number, what number episode it was with Keith Monteeth and and Um Kaufman Um from University of Wyoming. UM. They've been doing a lot of research that talk about nutrition being pro I I had to go read listen to myself, but nutrition and stress being perhaps a bigger indicator of an animal's ultimate growth. And and then horn representation or horn or antler representation than genetics.

And talked about how you can take deer from an area that supposedly have poor genetics, put them on the ground like the nutrition and ground conditions and not them. They don't turn into something, but a couple of generations later,

their offspring will, meaning that a buck. By the time a buck hits the ground, it's sort of it's it's fate might already be sealed depending on the body condition of the dough in prenatal so like in development in the uterus, and then how much nutrition she had while during lactation that that that that dear's history is kind of written at that could be like kind of have already been written at that point, like that those months could be like what that thing is gonna look like.

As a five year old, Jason was like, well, I don't know about had lots of arguments. Listen to this one because it comes from Baffle figure as well. He said something he thought would be very interesting about prong horned data in the Southwest. Now, with deer, it seems that, like with deer, it seems that you're gonna throw your best antlers five six, seven years of age. Okay, pronghorn um do it much quicker. In fact, it's seven. So

let let me back up and say this. So prong horn are a horned animal that sheds its horn, like the only yeah, they're the only horned animal I think in the world that sheds its horn. So it annually sheds its horn. So it's got a horn. But you can kind of look at this, you know, it grows over the years and it like sheds and a new one grows up in its place. It's kind of already it's kind of this stinky, little black, little weird thing. Growing under itself. So the sheath balls off and there's

another one already growing up in there. And when you're out in the woods, are out in the prairie, you know, out on the plans you'll find shed um. Pronghorn horns. They don't laugh. They don't seem to last that long on the ground. They kind of deteriorate, but they're saying that um for a long time. The world record pronghorn was a three year old from Arizona, Yep. Halfl Finger says this, I'm doing a horrible job right now, but

just bear with me. Halfl Finger says this in a nutshell, age is not the most important factor in producing large antelope horns. Environment contributes to this annually replaced sheath, but once animals reached three years old, there's no significant increase over the next few years in horn size based on age. It's just variation according to their nutritional condition during horn growth, and some contribution from genetics. He goes on to say,

managing of population, the average age of pronghorn bucks. He's using antelope and pronghorn synonymously here. Managing a population where the average age of prong horn bucks killed is three years old will not produce significantly fewer trophies than a population managed for the average age of the buck being six years old. At seven, they produced smaller horns. This is very different from deer, in which antler growth peaks between five and seven years old in both mule deer

and white tailed deer. Then he goes on to say, incredibly, the longtime world record prong horn was three years old from Arizona, but then I got beat by a new Mexico buck. In ends with this little interesting thing. Pronghorn

are different critters. They are the last remaining species in their entire family worldwide, as bart O'Gara, where the researchers mentions they are not the same as serviants in many ways, so we shouldn't be surprised by certain differences, such as the fact that yearling prong horn way more than eighty percent of their adult weight. This is way different than yearling bull elk that way only about fifty percent of

their potential adult weight. Well that belts for that, your pipes for then your beagle tube and smoking I don't have. I don't I'm not an analope expert, so I mean I mean body size though, which now you just like you ruin my whole argument I was building that time I was listening, is but what about their bodies? You're the kind of guy that when he's hearing something, I'm

formulating my before I'm even done. But then you like you knock out right out of the park there with that of their body weight, because you see those you know, your bigger horn bucks, they're already you know, big bulky size is compared to the you know, the does and whatnot and um, yeah, so just doing my whole argument, I can't argue with anything there. Did you do that when you're arguing with your wife? Oh, I'm already Yeah, I should probably stay like three steps ahead of it.

I should probably spend more time listening, but I'm instead of listening, I'm just already formulating on like the last point. Yeah, I'm sitting there being like just I'm not sitting to be like, I can't wait till she's done so I can save my rebuttal that's I don't know much about antelope, but I guess, I mean, it is what it is. I could. I thought I was gonna get to argue like horn size against dear genetics, but pulled the antelope card and I don't know anything about him, says they

shed shed him after the rut October through December. Antelope. I haven't had this happen. I've killed him late in the season where they feel kind of wiggly. I've had guys tell me that they've gone up to him at the tow towards the tail end of the antelope sees, which stretches into October, that they've gone up to him and we're dragging them by the horn and had the horn sheaths pop off in their hands. Yeah, I've never seen it. I mean, he's just that close to shed.

So there's another fully formed Oh yeah, then there's this greasy, little hairy little horn under there. Yeah, it's kind of weird pop off in your hand. Or they people being out and seeing where they've they've shed, like they've they've dropped one or whatever, you know. Yeah, I just looked that up because I was wondering, like how long they'll

last on the ground before they disintegrate. And I've found them before, but I'm trying to remember what time of year it was, and I feel like it was spring like hiking around and out east for turkeys and finding a couple of I found one in Wyoming. I found one wild hunting antelope in Wyoming last year that looked like an old dead piece of sage brush and you couldn't was kind of crumble in your hand. I don't know if they don't know how long they last. I

don't know when the hell that one felt. But I just never got the feeling they last a long time. I found one last season to a skull, and then I found a sheath and I have them both sitting on my bookshelf right now, are you gonna put him in the auction? I found one? I found one last there. I found one last October that was not from that year, and so it was probably a year old. What kind of shape was it in? It was in good shape. I'm sure it's sitting on my window sill at home.

Do you want it for the auction? Hoodities we'll see maybe, yeah, probably. It's a nice one. It's small, but it's cool. I like that one had to school with it. Oh yeah, we'll put it on there. I don't want to mess you. I don't want to mess your windows still up. It's pretty cool window sill. It's got lots of cool stuff on it. All right, let's go it in there. Okay, um, chest, you will hand deliver that. It's gonna be a quick in and out. He comes in. He's right here. It

told me to bring this here. Okay, one more thing. We're gonna cover one more newsy thing. But it's so complicated, and we touched on it before. I want to just tease it and then we're gonna get into it to a greater degree later. But it has to do with the thing. You're probably gonna be hearing a lot about people getting all up in arms about it, and many in my view, up in arms about it a little prematurely and without thinking it through. And it's a it's

an initiative. It's known as thirty by thirty. What the thirty by thirty initiative refers to is there's a goal

of conserving. Okay. So we talked about this for with Fosberg from Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership was on and just everybody knows, like I'm friends with it, I'm on the board of trcp UH what was on and we discussed briefly the concept of thirty and it's the goal of conserving of the planet's lands and waters by twenty Now, the Biden administration put out a thing about saying how thirty by thirty was a goal, and people immediately felt

that like thirty by thirty, the thirty Initiative and the Biden administration are like synonymous, and it was a creation of the Biden administration. It is not political and it does not come from the Biden administration. It existed long before the Biden administration. It's also not clearly defined. People are hearing conserve of lands and waters and they're imagining that it means like preserve. Okay, so their imagining it

means wilderness areas, national parks, monument stuff like that. That's not the case. It is yet to be defined. But any definition that comes up, in my view, has to include well managed and protected working lands, and we talked about that with WIT meaning ranches like cattle ranches within

conservation easements. Recreational properties so properties people owned for hunting purposes that they have no plans when they sort of rite up the legacy of the landscape how to move generationally, that it remains as is, it remains as a recreational property,

doesn't get subdivided and developed. This this concept is important, Like, it's important that we do this and get it right for a variety of reasons, like to maintain good hunting and fishing, to maintain bio diversity, to be prepared for um increased changes in our climate by making sure that we have a lot of habitat for wildlife to live on, to have space to adapt. It's like it's a thing that we need to help shape. But it's like a

concept that is not owned by any political party. It will inevitably fall across partisan lines to some degree because people are going to view it as a land grab, but no one's at this point, no one's grabbing anybody's land like this. I think done properly, it's a great goal and it's a good idea, and you should if you like the hunt fish, you should pay attention to it. If you're worried about private land rights, I think you should be involved in the conversation about how this stuff

is going to be defined. Some of the t RCPs viewpoints on it, they just want to know that, like it was, it was born of scientists. They want to see the concert avation must be clearly defined. It's critical to understanding what, where, and how lands managed specifically for conservation under public and private ownership and not just permanently protected areas are contributing to the broader goals of thirty. They want to know where we stand right now in

relation to the goal. The U S Geological Survey estimates that estimates that twelve percent of the country's lands are already permanently protected. Of US ocean waters, mostly in the Pacific, are currently protected. How do we achieve the remaining eight percent of land? Needs to be defined like what we have now, what we're gonna need? They want hunters and anglers to have a seat at the table. Says we have a very long legacy of conservation stewardship and there's

no reason we would abandoned that now. And community driven conservation is key. That's another point they have. Fresh water needs to be included and thirty thirty should not ignore degraded habitats that need restoration, Meaning instead of just saying stuff that's already pristine needs to be held pristine, it would be that stuff that is degraded habitat. While they've habitats is degraded should be restored and added to the total. So we're gonna talk about this a whole bunch more

coming up. But they have a thing, Uh, they put out an article what hunters and Anglers need to know about thirty by thirty As it sort of gains traction and gains detractors. I think, why that felts you gonna read up? Were you formulating a rebuttal or you're gonna read up on that? I just have so many questions.

Skepticism is the chastity the intellect right now? Just lots of Yeah, lots of questions, like what checkboxes they get it back to normal and you know, definitions, yeah, conservers, and then like is there equity across like the West versus east, Like at the west hold the whole entire like percentage or does it need to be like spread cool across you know the country and kind of how

everything fits. Yeah, in bear in minds, it's like, you know, there's sort of like the global output, the global outlook, and then there's like what we could do do we shoulder more? I mean, we're a huge country. Do do we just do our percentage? Do we shoulder more to make up for people that aren't cant paying attention to this. Yeah, that's tough, Like we can do, we do our whatever, our twelve to We put all this effort in and then and like the global you know, the global skime,

it doesn't even matter. That makes it tough, Like you still feel good about what you did. But does that change, like the little change inside the US, does it? Does it ultimately even matter in the in the global outcome if nobody else is on board. I was a long time ago imagining, um that there was a sort of that there was room for a sort of Um, this is gonna come off sounding weird and wrong, but I haven't clearly defined it. There's room for a sort of

environmental nationalism. I feel, uh that that like part of American exceptionalism. You know, if you sit and think, if you imagine America's being like the greatest country on earth, with the greatest liberties political system whatever, that um, that exceptionalism or that nationalism would lead to in you know, an equal bit of environmental stewardship, conservation leadership, you know, in that way, I would be like, uh, that we

would aspire to do better than our share. But again, and as we talked about what it really comes down to a lot of things like you could have. Um, I think people are automatically gonna reflexively think like, oh, this is gonna be someone telling me what to do, but it might be someone encouraging you, helping you do

what you already wish you could do. In terms of recreational properties and all the hunting lands and ranch lands and like, the point they make is how we take places that aren't doing anything for wildlife and make them good wildlife areas. I'm all for that. So it's not just like peeling away from its order there, but like creating it. I don't want people to ride away and be like, oh, damn Biden. You know, there's all kinds of reasons to be mad at Biden right now. But yeah, no,

I'm all for it. All right, Sam, it's your turn down. You've been on the show before, Samantha Bates. Yes, I've asked you this before. We can't remember what you said. You actually prefer Sam. I don't have a preference, Sam, Samantha, anything's fine. Oh, this is the first time you don't know how to quite how to put it. This is the first time you've what what what how would you call it? I don't know what title you would have

right now. Oh. Um, this is the first time that I have produced and field produced a meat produced anfield produced the media episode. Did it? Uh? What do you think about that? Not to be in the first well, like, give me, give me how did you feel about the experience? Oh? Overall really positive? Um. I think it's just good for me to be able to get out in the field and be able to observe a little bit and kind

of see what everyone's roles are. So I'm looking at this very much from a production standpoint of like, um, how everyone's working and cohesively, you know, doing this together. And I like this crew because everyone is so self sufficient. Um. And that's actually a rarity to find on film crewise. I don't know. I don't know if Garrett and Lauren can speak to that a little bit more, but it's a rarity for sure. Give me some more. What do you mean by that, Um, there's a lot more hand holding,

there's a lot more direction that needs to be offered. Um, you know, holding people's water bottles, giving people their water bottles, opening the caps to the water bottles. Like these are real scenarios. The things that you get involved in. Absolutely, someone needs to be helping people get them open. Absolutely, And it's just kind of like, you know, you're never gonna ask me to carry your bow and arrow for you or shoot an elk for you, because you're going

to do it. Like that's a thing that happens sometimes on other sets. Absolutely, not the bow and arrows scenario, but literally opening a water bottle for someone. Huh, and you expected to be opening water bottles? No, Oh my god, No I didn't. But I think I was pleasantly surprised by how everyone owns their ship and you know, does their role. It's just really awesome. Did you find that you were, Um, just people know, we're in New Mexico, we just finished an elk count got a couple of bulls.

Did you find that you were Did you feel like in the normal day to day goings on, were you more working or more kind of like sort of into the elk counton thing. Oh, it's an absolute combination. I really wouldn't be able because I'm I'm definitely thinking about the story and how things are unfolding and maybe what we're missing, And it's just interesting that also, um and finally understand like how the story kind of um evolves

on these hunts. But I definitely felt like I was getting a little bit more in the hunting, and I'd be like asking Seth and Chester were like, Okay, what's happening right now? And um, you know, really intrigued by Jason's calls and trying to figure out like why you were using certain calls and win because there definitely seemed

to be a little bit of a pattern. Um. But that was my first ever archery hunt, my first ever elk hunt to witness, so um, everything was new to me and I can't believe that we were in a spot like this in New Mexico where we saw that doesn't happen. It wasn't the numbers like the numbers sure like you can go places and see more meaning, oh, there's two fifty of them all bawled up, and yeah, that's looking extremely agitated. I've never heard that many elk before,

constantly throughout the night. And then however many run ins you all had too, and how many times you could call in elk, I imagine that's pretty unique. We had. Let me think, let's say inside of rty yards, we had well when we kind of got caught twice because we called him in twice. I think it's condom as to you, because who knows either way? He came in twice one, two, three, four, five, six, six bulls inside forty yards in how many days? Three four? Yeah, and

that's short hunting days because it's so unbelievably hot. What we get? Oh yeah, that one day I said, it feels like kind of like abnormally hot. It was seven that day. Yeah, it was misable, brutal. Can you give people your your philosophy on hiding, Sam, It does not matter what shoot I am on, whether it's for hunting or anything else. I am hiding all the time. That is like versus like Chester and seth hiding heads. They're poked like most people. Would you tell most people to hide,

but there's like an elk coming. They're not gonna hide. They're gonna like find a way to sort of you know, be hidden, to see what's happening. Like the curiosity kills him. Yeah, No, I am just because I don't want to ruin something. I mean, I haven't had plenty of issues with Lauren where like he'll be filming and then all of a sudden, you'll see me just like crouch down to the ground. I just I'm hiding all the time, I said, I asked her about a bullet. Did you see that? No,

I was hiding. I was doing my job. I saw uh. And then yeah, the one thing is you had to help with. You had to do the pack out as your first pack out was. It's too Yeah, my first Elk pack out. We used to have not used to like it's a thing we'll talk about, like a death march um and we're trying to define what constitute the death march, and Yanni fells it it's not a death march until there's a fight, and the fights are always about one thing, routes, And he says, it's really a

death march when the group splits. And I felt like you were all you were within you know, fractions of an inch of witnessing the death march yesterday because there was some descent, there was some route descent. Does does nighttime play a role in the death Yeah? The worst death march I've ever been involved in was just never ending involved dirt. I hope the statue. I don't know

what the rules are Mexical, but dirt. It was the night that dirt killed a quail or the trek and poll Oh my gosh, just venting some of that frustration. Uh actually bagged himself quail. The trek pull or later overheard him described someone as a nightbird. You couldn't remember what it was, um, but wondering all over the place in the dark in Mexico and event you at one point we come across one of the like three million rocks we had passed that day. It's like a headsized

rock and dirt. Have no audacity to say I remember that rock crew split that on that there was a split. Yeah, when you get into someone's like I'm out, I'm out, I'm going this way. That's a death march. Um, so I'll not like you would go again. You do not tell me now? Oh absolutely yeah. I had a great experience. I really enjoyed it. Um. You guys are all relatively fun people to be around it again and you're like all the camp and I love all the camping. I

would say. My thorn of the trip was that damn tent that brought with me. UM tip to everyone, if Ryan Callahan gives you a floorless tent, don't take it because it's lighter. I'm not going to be ideal. The pauen Mights could get to you that way. Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, we got into some kind of we're trying to research it a chigger like thing that's not quite a chigger. You get bit by everything though. It's my real weakness. You called it a souped up jigger. Yeah,

it seems like some sort of spider bite. Yeah, half of us got lit up. Pretty good, bad news, Okay, Jason, give you give you rundown on what what went on there? You're like, I haven't been I haven't hunted out with you yet. No, I knew that you were. Like when I think that I explained it for I think that Yanni, in my mind, Yanni was sort of like a godlike figure to me for alcoholm because one day he called all down three or four bulls in and I was like, man,

this guy like he's just good. I thought, yeah, I thought he was good. Well he's not. Because then Yanni came to me and Yanni talked about Jason Phelps the way he thinks about you, the way I think about him. Yeah, this this area is good first off. And I think I was recapping and that's why I got down here early, just want to make sure we were in elk Um.

But these out almost made my job too easy. I was telling you last night, I didn't have to go through like progression two or three or like what do I do next? Because he's elk. We're just, oh, they're just gonna eat up the first thing we threw at them, and it was it was it was almost too easy. Yeah, that bull that you got yesterday. I've never had this feeling going into an elk, but once we kind of like knew where like pinpointed sort of topographically where he was. Um,

you never feel this way. But I was like, as we're like going in walking in, I'm like this bull will come yeah, and like I knew we were going to call the bullet. Yeah, the only thing we need to do is be quiet so we could get to that hundred hundred fifty yards, which we did, and it was, you know, it was a guarantee at that point. Once we I think we let one lip ball off. I let one lip ball off and then I kind of put my bigle tube away maybe maybe too, and then

let you do it. That way we could get him close enough to us, and it was just it was one of those things where the UM, I think we even said it before, we're gonna sneak in on him, We're gonna surprise him, and then we're gonna you know, challenge him kind of, and that's what we did. UM kind of went to a two man caller there and it was it was just it was a great hunt.

Lots of bowls, UM. I think the only I was trying to remember last night, the only bowl that we tried to call in and we didn't was the satellite bowl right before you ended up UM killing your bowl. Uh. You know, everything that we set up on I think we called to boat range, you know, as far as UM you know what we were trying to do besides maybe that bigger bull running up the mountain, which we didn't really ever get set up on. But UM, it

was a fairly unique situation. But the I don't know if we just hit the rut right or what, UM, but it was it was a fun hunt. We had a really interesting thing play out. It kind of played all over two days, I think, but primarily on one day where we had another hunter working the out. We're working Doug. Yeah, and it was amazing to watch UM

to be able to watch a bull. So we're watching the bull on the hillside and there's a guy approaching it from one direction and we're kind of approaching it for another direction, and to watch the elk ignore his bugles yep, like that if it's not right, like the elk would ignore it and would return every one of Jason's bugles. He's like something about it, like I don't know what it is. I don't think. I don't know

if he thinks like, oh, that's a person whatever. It just doesn't it didn't trigger in him like that guy's bugles did not trigger in him what years did, to the point where I have multiple times he would like the other guy would bugle, and the elk would look that direction and go to like maybe bugle, and then you'd cow call or bugle and he just a completely divert his attention and you could draw it back in.

And there's something about like the authenticity of the sound was so much more compelling to that out now that he never did, like he paid attention to and bugle that, but you could like trigger a response out of him every single time. Yeah, I want to maintain some humility

in this. This next comment but there is a huge difference, Like if you don't sound, I mean, we would hear that guy right out of the gate, and like I think we called it right off the bat, like that's a guy he's doing stuff that really elk don't do. He was lip ball chuckling, he was doing Explain what that means. So lip ball a lot of times, especially it's more prevalent down south, but all bulls will lip ball.

It's kind of a very um unique sound that the bulls will make where it's almost like a rattle, you know, as the bugle. It's you know, as it goes through um. And we replicate that by sputtering our lips really really tight um. And and so usually they just do a long, drawn out lit ball and then they go kind of back to their clean chuckles. Yeah, but he was lip ball chuckling. I don't even know how, you know. And it's a noise that I've never heard in the woods,

no matter how many times I've I've did this. And so if we can pick that up that easy, wouldn't you think like the creators of the language would be able to pick it up just as easily or better. At one point you commented that you could hear that he had saliva in his bugle tube. Yeah, I mean like he had some spit bubbles or something, because you'd hear him go to like start his biggle, and I'm like, well, that's he's He's got like air bubbles and saliva trapped

in his read or whatever he's using. And so we kind of played like the reverse Marco Polo game with that guy, like just hear him biggle and then try to stay away from him and mess with his home. Dude. It made me massively self conscious, man, because, uh, when we like, can you remember those um everybody had one heal black premost bite and blow calls from whatever the late nineties, I guess like everybody had the same one

in the hyper the hyper lip. I remember we used to you know, there's all kinds of wrong ways we would approach it in the late nineties we first started doing it, but we would regard blowing that as a way to get the outgoing the other way. But if you wanted to send them the other direction, blow that, you know, and not that's not hacking on that's like absolutely not hacking on premos calls. That's like wrong sort of like wrong call, wrong time, not understanding what you're doing,

you know. And and added to the fact of like a lot of people also doing that and creating a sort of signature, um, creating a sort of signature that things would start to associate with a certain kind of trouble. There's probably people that could have at that time taking that call and called in all kinds of bulls with it, but we just like weren't thinking about it the right way, weren't employing it at the right moment, you know. So yeah, not a hack in any respect, but it was amazing

to watch, Um, you do what you do. And the biggest thing is like, like you describe that sort of been a very aggressive style elk hunting, but it's not. It's that's almost under selling it. It's like aggressive, but it's so authentic. Yep, it's you know. And and I'll go back to like second Chester that very first night. Um, I think it was the second ball we had called in got very the real big bull that got what twelve fourteen yards from you bumped or didn't bump he

you were just getting ready to squeeze. Oh he picked me off out the corner of his eye. Never even turned his head. But this just goes one of the things where like it, I don't know if it drove these guys nts. I could tell they were a little bit like anxious that we were like lead because that bowl had kind of seen us. Then we were aggressive. We were going to the next Beigning Bowl, right, We had just kind of and I think we had walked by maybe a hundred yards of that bull just staring

at us. But it was one of those things where that's my style. We've got another bull, bigling that has no idea we live on the earth right now, and and this bull has obviously seen us busted. He's a little bit nervous. He's kind of went rogue and they were like, hey, hey guys, there's that ball right. You know, they could see it, and we had seen it already, um,

you know, before he ran off. And it was one of those things where we're so aggressive that I'm willing to like forget about the bowl that we just had very very close because we're moving on to the next bowl that is going to be easier to call in because we've just kind of screwed this one up. Oh yeah, it's hard for a fellow to walk away from a bull that's a hundred ten yards away. That's a big

old six point, yeah it is. But that's just kind of that style where I've already wrote that off, like we can try him again in the morning, because we've just we've had him at twelve yards, he's seen us at eighty. Um we tried to call him back in. You know, he did that bark chuckle, which you know scared everybody, you know, just a very very aggressive sound like, hey, something wasn't right there. I didn't smell you guys, but um, I tried to bark, chuckle back and do some of

my tricks, but he just wasn't gonna pull. You know, he knew something was wrong about the bush that he came around and seen you know, Steve at and almost

killing him. Yeah, he was kind of gone. And so you know, that aggressive style kind of not only plays into too moving in to call a bull in, but also like bypassing elk or hey that night, um, I had seen that same bowl, I believe, rip across the meadow and leave his cows, and we just kind of ran at him like we're gonna bump his cows completely after you know, out of this area, because after he's done running up on the hill and chasing this other little bowl away, he's gonna come back to his cows

and guess what, we're gonna be sitting on him. So stuff like that where people are like, oh, I don't want to scare this elk because they're so content here and they don't know we're here, Like, heck with it, let's just let him see us, like I'm gonna wave. A matter of fact, I think I was waving my beagle too at him, like get the heck out of here, and we want you to go right and not left, like, don't go back to your bowl, go right, because this is the way I'm going to set this plan up.

And sure enough he came back, but he did a big old circle and came back the wrong way. But um, it's just stuff like that. Um you know that that one day me and Garrety said, Hey, this is gonna a little bit aggresive. I'm just gonna run at this bowl, um, you know. And and it's just different things that and it's tough to explain, like every situation sometimes it depends on you know, what can see you, what the terrain

looks like what the vegetation looks like. But um, that bigger bowl we called in um the night that that we got to sixteen yards. Uh, he had kind of got behind a pile of brush, but he expected to see an elk there, and I think he kind of got nervous. Hey, I'm really close to you guys, and I can't see anything nothing that resembles an elk. He kind of froze. He went back to his cows. We had some really good terrain. I said, Hey, let's just

run at this thing. And so I mean, you let out a nasty lit ball and you cover thirty more yards because that might give you a different lane and it might also trigger that bowl. So there's just stuff going through your head all the time on every situation.

But I would think if you can, you know, put underlying any word, it's just trying to keep that a aggressive style UM on all of our calling, you know, and what we did most of the time, like the boy yesterday, Like it can be considered aggressive because we got really close, but it really was a pretty conservative play. You know. We made a big loop on him. We got close, but then we went way the hill out

of the way. To come in with the right wind the right elevation, and then didn't call until we sort of had an idea of how he would approach, what the wind was doing. That was all very very calculated, and you know, if we would have went right at him like we had kind of mold over, the wind was right to come at him from you know, downhill

and go up to his point. But we also knew that by time we did that, the winds probably gonna switch, you know, And so we were making very calculated, very um you know, conservative decisions to make sure that whatever we did we could control every aspect, you know, and as long as that bowl didn't move, we were going to have a very good shot at him. Um. One of the things I think about when I think about the aggressiveness is, and this is based a lot of

my own experiences. UM, I don't care where you go. You go the most heavily hunted area, Okay, a lot of pressure. But when you're watching elk Off in the distance, there's things that are doing. Bulls rake brush like high pressured bulls rake brush, yep, high pressured play grab bass. They chase each other around, they knock rocks, they bust branches.

They make a lot of racket. You hear them right, It's like they might be very attuned to human pressure and they don't want anything to do with people, and one whiff of a person is gonna send them. But when they think they're safe, they make noise yep. And maybe they don't bugle like late in the morning whatever, but at night whatever, they might not bugle a lot,

but they make some noise. But then for some reason, um, you get into them and you know they're skittish and you're soul full of paranoia that you in some way your caution prevents you from creating the atmosphere that you personally watch them create around themselves, because you're like you you kick a rocket, you know what I'm saying. But then when you watch it was like there you can hear him a hundred yards away sometimes chasing around when

the bulls like chasing cows, running other bulls off. They might not be bugling, but they're doing all this stuff. So to then get in where you get in, like you get into his bedroom, you watch him going you know where he's betted. He bugles a little bit beds down. It's like you know where he's at and then you're gonna like sort of quietly and cautiously mimic another bull encroaching on his space. But if you watch that happen, he's not doing it quietly and cautiously. I mean he's

in there banging ship around raak and brush. Yeah, so you're kind of like you're you're sort of like it's not that you're like you're not being more aggressive than LK. You're sort of acting like what a bull X like when he's pissed. Ye, when he's like confronting another bull, he's doing ship. Yeah. The only time I try to reserve like any of that he's making is trying to just get to my setup because it's a little bit

of element of surprise. Like I'll get in really quiet and then like, oh you know that to that boys, Oh ship, there's a bull right here that quick, Like I have no other option but to go check him out, you know, or lose my cows um, you know, but packing the bulls out like there's I got to learn really quick that. You know, my bulls wasn't a monster. But you can't walk there's no clear lane. I mean, just to carry that with the horns. I mean that

elk's got to try to navigate. He's knocking brush every step. Um, you know, we're rolling rocks, but as soon as we start to call, I'm not. I'm not opposed to you know, sticks break and rocks rolling. Matter of fact, in both of my setups, I ended up being turned a little bit wrong and had to turn myself. I don't give a crap about you know, rolling a rock or kicking a rock as I moved, Like, all of that's okay.

The only if they're really close, i'd maybe be concerned with him like pin pointing exactly where I am, or like drawing to that noise of a rock rolling. But um, you know, they kind of already know where we're at anyways from our calls. Like they're very they're their Doppler system, their their sense of like specific location of where that sound is, like you know, very very good. Um, they know exactly what tree you should be sitting behind based on where that veagle or that cow call came from.

One of the things I saw from Yanni was that if we're calling, had a bull hanging up seventy eight yards out kind of walking trying to figure out why I can't see anything is dropping off a roll in

the hill. So the shooters set up, but Yannie drops off where he's beyond down in a little hole or beyond something that can't be seen, and he'd put a pair of you know, pull on some gloves, yep, and rake brush because it's funny because the bull you're watching and brush and then and that makes him and then he's like, you know, wanting to come because he can't confirm. That makes him need to change position because he can't

confirm where it that's coming from exactly. And that felt to me like at first, like che's man, I'll be doing that, dude. Yeah, I'm like, well he's doing it. Yeah. And on those situations we didn't that where I was mentioned like we don't have to go to progression two or three and do any of this stuff. Um, but yeah, what is progression two or three? So like that, that is a lot of times these bowls will hold up,

which I try to prevent from that set up. But we can set up on a roll of a hill or a hard edge like on your bowl, a hard edge of brush versus open Like if you can set up to to shoot that edge, then you don't get a lot of hang ups. But that bowl the way it works, you know, and and while you know in the wild, if we're not involved, is that bowl is is he's being expects at other bowl to come a certain distance um or if we're actually gonna get him

to commit. As soon as he gets to that vegetation break or that roll in the hill and and can see where that cow or that bowl, whatever is calling to him should be, he's done. Like he's not going to commit that open space of a hundred yards or in in you know Yanni's case seven or eighty, because he's now hung up. He's not gonna come like look behind the tree. Yeah, he's done. And so that's why we try to set our shooters up to to prevent

all that. But no progression two is that fall back, Like if we have hung up, we've got him to commit to so far, but he's like he's drawn an imaginary line and I'm not coming past this. A lot of times we will start to do those fade you know, fade vehicle back, rake brush, but then once we get to a certain distance, will kind of do like the recharge. We will come back at him biggling like we're coming again, We're coming to get you and maybe get him to

pull you know, that extra distance. We were in an area where the Forest Service, for I don't know what the hell I was asking Seth about this. I don't know what the motivation was. Maybe probably just wildlife work Right had done some like beautiful thinning wildlife, you know, overall forest health or timber quality. I don't I don't know what it was for, but it was like like they created like a beautiful sort of like grassland savannah. It looked like they had maybe prescribed burn that area

too at some point in time. Freaking gorgeous man. Yeah, for like great turkey elk and there, elk, we're in there. There's some water there too, which obviously makes it all possible. But beauty, Hilaria. But even before we started hunting, you were talking about not liking that from a calling perspective, very very difficult because you could see three yards in

every direction. You were like trying to get the situation where um they had to come in and couldn't really ascertain what was going on until they got ys And we want to have him very close and and you

pull that off because we had like very close encounters. Ye. Yeah, and that's just idea, Like if you can meet him at the edges, is where we want to meet you, not out in the middle of a you know, something that's very consistent both you know, whether it's a steep slope, you don't want to be on a consistent step slope. You don't want to be on a consistent flat slope. You don't want to be on a consistent like vegetation.

Because even if you pile yourself in a big pile of brush, um there there's no there's no like definitive line he needs to get to. So it's very hard as a hunter to know where to set up um or you know, the heavy brush also kind of screws up your shooting angles where you may give yourself one or two. Yeah, we had we had one setup. The only set up we had that made me like not nervous, but we got it was kind of we were kind

of forced into the situation. But we got a place where there was in most respects zero visibility, one shooting lane, but a very well defined trail. And for a minute, I thought, this ball is going to come down this trail. The brush was starts. He was not gonna see me. The wind was good, but he was gonna be for me to you when he got there under ten yards, and I remember being like, this is a little tight. Yeah,

that was. That was the only even when I even walked down on and you saw, I had to walk downhill and break one stick because that was my one place to shoot. Snapped one stick out of the way, and then back back up, thinking I'm basically gonna stick the broadhead against his flame if he kept coming though. Yeah, that bowl, he did something a little interesting. He he I don't know if he's trying to get the wind on us or he wouldn't commit to come down, Charil.

That was the one scenario where I started behind you calling, ended up going down below you calling, and by time we were done, I was in the shooting lane calling because he did a big circle and I was trying to pull him through, you know, keep you between me and that bowl the whole time, and ultimately he just he walked the whole top and we we just reset

up on that one in a better location. Um, because that bowl didn't for some reason, that was the one that didn't come, just like boiling in um how he had drawn it up. So that was the one recircled and then just reset up and worked really really well. Do you know the one there's one in counter and I still haven't got your feelings on to find out

what you were thinking. It was one where the other hunter was kind of working them too, but that big six point that had the cows on that open hillside, you were like reticent, and I know I was reticent about not wanting to get in on the other hunter's groove, but you were kind of also reticent about something about the So he was in the wide open, him and his cows were in the wide open. We had no way we would have had to. We couldn't go towards him.

We couldn't go like towards him into the right. Our only play would have we would have had to back out and go way around him. And you know, you're just looking at the time you're looking at you know, we've spent some time messing with him. I just it was one of those things where whether it's gut or not, Yeah, maybe we could have ran up there and maybe in

an area where there weren't so many elk. We would have if that was our only play we would have tried it, we would have backed in, but we would have had to come through the same route that the other color was, you know, other hunter was going through. Uh, and then we would had to try to beat him up the hill for that wind to change. So there was just a lot going on on that one where it just didn't seem like the odds were kind of

in our favor if we were to approach that. You know, we tried it for a little bit, thinking that I think I had ranged you know, used the range finder on it means about four h yards away, which isn't undoable. Um. We just that was the same situation where he wasn't

paying any attention to the other color. He would look at us every time I threw everything at him, you know, lip balls, you know, as much cow call as as I could give him, you know, kind of everything in my arsenal, and he just really wasn't gonna budge and

leave his cows. Um. So that was that was one of those ones We're gonna have to bring it all the way to him, and it was just kind of like, man, I don't know what the right approaches, and so we just kind of looked at him for a while, and in a different way, you talk a lot about that you don't really know what you're gonna do. Oh yeah, I just I'm flying by the seat of my pants half the time, just kind of what what I feel. But if you like imagine that you I feel that

that's not true. You know, you're flying bout some of your pants. But like talk a little bit like what do you what are the things that you like? Even though it's a there's a computation going on in your head and maybe you don't understand it the same way. Well, when you're going about daily life, Uh, you'll get a feeling that I have a feeling that person is agitated. Why I don't know, just something about yeah, and then you I don't know why. I just like the alarm

went off of my head that this person is like agitated. Um, And it's hard to art later articulate what it was that was going on. So if you had to kind of get into your own mind and get into, um, what is being computated in your head about the animal's mood, you know, like take a stab at it, like like what do you what are you kind of basing on. So we're when you're weighing his when you're weighing his

opinions and weighing his mood. I'm gonna get all kinds of help for this, but I'm gonna start off by prefacing it with I don't play into like this el is saying something specific with this call. I I don't buy into chuckles mean we're rounding up cows. I don't believe that this, this bigle here is a bowl trying to round his cows up. I don't believe that this.

You know, there's a few things I know, like grunts or or alarm barks means that he's just either seen you or heard you and can't figure out what the heck you are. You know, there there are certain things, um, but you know, I've I've heard bowls chuckling that are just mad at the other bowl. So I don't play off of that. I I play more off of temperament.

And there's a lot of testing um that goes into that, kind of like throwing shan lures like spinner you know, bottom, you know, jig, you know, top, top, bait, whatever, just trying to see what's gonna work. And so there are I do it on everything even from my location bugles, Um, you know, all throw the high note out first, ann answer, all right, I'm gonna go to like a low mid

note didn't answer. Now, if I really feel that there's an elk there, I'm gonna throw a lip ball at him just to see if he's going to answer that. And I started to pick up on that, you're sort of like your locator sequence yea, did yeah, did the high one work yes or no? Did the the the the low note kind of mid note work yes or no? Almost? And then you're going to like a lip ball if I think there's an elk there. Um, So we kind of run through progressions. Then I kind of used that

all the way through um the scenario. And and as we've set up a lot on this hunt, I was able to see a lot of what was going on or get very good audio feedback from the elk, you know, through their answers. And so I would say, if you look at it, like what's in my bag at tricks for cal calls, I've got you know, the ss wine, which I did a lot just the real right yeah, you know, kind of wavy, kind of not your traditional calmu.

We did some calf calling just to kind of add some social you know, volume to the situation, like there's more elk here than just the cow. We did some just normal calmuns. Yeah yeah, you know, and then we did some buzzing there were The buzzing is kind of always my last chance, especially if you've got multiple bowls coming, or a bowl that's just kind of not really hung up, but we just can't get him the pool. I would

try to use that to add some excitement. Um, you know, that cow really needs some you know, somebody needs to come check on her. And so if you look at like my cal call bucket, I've got those. I I stick with that estrus wine a lot and see how they react. Um and and even in our bigle situations, I feel like I need to throw a cow call in at some point. Uh there. Now, I may be a hypocrite because there might have been some this this time where it was just straight bugling, but you need

you can't think of any time when you did. You need to give that bowl some incentive to come over, like unless he just wants to come fight or sparred, because he wants to, you know, test out how powerful he is or what his abilities are you're not giving that bowl any reason to come, like, check you out. If you're just a bull randomly vehgling and you're not presenting him with something he's losing. Yeah, he's just well, we can just sit here and bigle back and forth.

There's nothing for me to come check out over there and see if I can still hear cow. So I always try to throw some mix of caw calls in and a lot of times, um, if I'm able to get in close and quiet enough, well we'll maybe reserve that cal call for later. Like I want my very first vehicle in my head. If I can just piss this bowl off and startle him and be like, oh shoot, somebody's right on me, you know, and they're here and I've got cows or whatnot, then that I need to

go defend that. So a lot of times that will kind of get it started. Um. On the bagle side, it's really just um, I use the lip ball is an aggressive sound. You know, a lot of times, I don't know how many times this trip I had to

use the lip ball. If a bull is interested to a point that maybe he gets the sixty or seventy, and I've seen him turn like, oh, shoot, he's losing trist Like I hammering with the lip ball within like the first step of him turning, Um, that's my like get your ass back here, call um, we're not done yet. And so in my head, like if I ever see

a bowl turn like, that's instantly a lip ball situation. Um. And and a lot of times I'll add very temperamental like emotional grunts to my ending of that, like the first one maybe a little lighter second, and then like the third one, I'm really hammering on the grunts, like you know, trying to like add some intensity into those grunts, even like everything I'm doing is got like a little bit more purpose on. I'll like, hey, get your ass

back here. But then there's times where you're just to scream, um. You know, you're just screaming at the bowl really short two to three second vehicles, like you're really if he's eating those up, I'll stay with those um. And then there's a lot of like intricate sounds, especially that first night I know I was using like the bigger bowl that came in was breathing heavy. I could hear him at like fifty or sixty, and so I was kind kind of breathing across my read, which, like I said,

I want to maintain some humility here. But there are guys that couldn't figure out how to even make that sound on a read, you know, or a diaphragm, where if I, if you have the ability, I I just

matched him and that's where that mimicry came. And he was breathing heavy, like well, I'm gonna breathe heavy over top of the red and it's just a real slight subtle sound, but deep breaths um, you know, really really hollow chuckles that all throw in a lot of times, I've observed when a bull rakes a tree, we're doing a lot of raking. Um, you know, I'm trying to. Of course, I was a dummy most of the time, set up calling for you, and I'd sit next to

the tree with no limbs. I'm like, well, yeah, I don't got any I don't have any trees to rake, but I'll stomp the ground or whatnot or break a few limbs. But just adding a lot of times a bull or break a tree, you know, maybe forty five seconds a minute, two minutes. And he comes out of that with a chuckle, or a bagle like he come, and so it's just trying to put everything together exactly how how I've seen it done in the woods. So

all right, we break a tree. I picked up my beagle to when I give like a hollow chuckle y um, same thing. You know, there were times when you were beating on a tree when when I was calling, I would let you just finish your aching and I would do a chuckle just to kind of keep that that scenario as realistic as possible. Um. But yeah, a little intricacies.

I don't know if I explained it well kind of why I do what I do, but it's it's also it's a progression of well, let's try, you know, our our normal challenge bagle, and then we'll try a lip ball and then we'll try and just kind of see what's working on that specific oak. I had a guy I'm like email friends with right in one day wrote me a letter explaining that he was worked up, like kind of worked up about Phelps game calls. He says,

everybody's not Jason Phelps. So people that want to like do like Jason Phelps, but they don't have like the skill he has has resulted in a lot of guys running around trying to act like egg roller callers, but they just have no idea what they're doing. I'm blamed for like ruining the olkret by a lot of people, like everybody in those damn felps tubes and know nothing beagles anymore and nothing works, And it's all you guys,

damn fault for promoting biggling. You know, a lot of guys think that you should just walk in and calcol i guess um, but yeah, what's what's your take on that? If done wrong and you and if you're educating the elk, it could be very detrimental to just walk I mean, if they associate your bugle with they smell or being seen, a can screw up areas and and that bowl will become educated. You know. I think you can get away with it once and maybe kill him the second time.

But if he if he experiences like you're sent and being called in all you know multiple times, that bowl is gonna be very very hard to kill there there. You know, they might not be the smartest critter, especially during the rep, but they're smart enough not to get killed by you. Um, you know, and you think that that would move over even to it even like that

a that a good caller would have a hard time. Yeah, I mean we I feel that if you're a good caller and can sound like elk, you know, like a real elk as much as possib bowl, then then it maybe helps you get over that that hump of I'm a very distinct color. I can maybe fool him once but maybe never again. Versus if you sound like a real elk, what more can you do? Like, how is he going to now be able to tell that you're a person versus a real elk if you're that good.

And so that's why I don't think you need to be a great caller, but there I I also believe that it can, you know, help you out in the woods. Dude, listen, I think that being like a good caller like yourself, it's pretty advantageous. It was. It was amazing to watch man. Thanks, it was amazing to watch. Yeah, And that's where like I'm so I'm so like concerned, And we asked the hiders a lot, like I think I had a conversation with Seth like, you don't have to tell me I'm

good just because I'm asking you. But I want to know for myself because if I can get better, I want to know on the bowl that that I was able to take yesterday. Um, I think they had, you know, a hundred yards behind me. They were telling us like they could tell, you know, when I vehicle, they could tell when you ve agle. But then I'm like, well, that's fine if you know who I am, but or which one I was? But was it accurate? Like was there something in my bugle that I can work on?

And that's just like my pursuit of perfection And they probably got some feedback on that, but well, there there was that one time where we kind of got separated from you guys and we're going off that hill. There was elk Buglan everywhere. I was like, I don't know which one is. Jason. It's like, I hope we're not screwing something offer. But in that same setup, that's that set up that you guys didn't kill that big bowl.

We were quote unquote hiding and Sam was actually hiding, but we're I was able to watch that bowl leaving with his cows. And I don't know if it was when you ran at him or lip bald, but he was leaving with his cows, and I saw him spin on a dime and go right back to the timberline. That's because I ripped a bugle, which was cool to see because that was like, obviously you he was leaving, but he heard something that was like whoa, I do not like this turn on a dime and went right

back to that tree. Yeah, And so like in that situation, I guess you canna elaborate, maybe spend. Like in that one, I'm thinking, this bull's got cows and you could hear him, and you guys could see him. I I could hear him around and cows up. He would run up on this little knob, try to grab a cow and push

her down. Well, there was so much chaos there. I'm like, I can get away with running at him, and he's got his cows, so like mismanaged right now that if he thinks I'm gonna come in and like swipe one up, maybe that would be enough. Like hey, i don't care about my cows all around them up later, but I'm at least gonna stop this guy. And so that's kind of what's going. But that's one of those things where

it just you know, the pursuit of perfection. Like, I don't feel there's any better way to call Elkin than to actually sound as much like a real Elk as possible. And I don't want to give my own prod ex plug here, but I think that metal beagle tube like truly is a little bit of a differentiator between some

of our old plastic tubes. Um, by all means go by, our old plastic tubes are great, but but that metal tube, it just got something to it where I feel like I can no longer tail like on my grunts or lip balls that I'm calling through a plastic tube. The Uh, there's a thing that I know something I make the comparison all the time. Uh, in aspects I did see multiple times, aspects of turkey hunting and al calling it.

It annoys people because it's like like it's just different, but there's some similarity in that there's a couple areas of similarity that calling turkeys. There's a thing that happens at a certain proximity, Like at a certain proximity, it's harder, it becomes harder for it to ignore you, right, And there is that that um, you're at times mimicking a female Okay, you're uh, you're exploiting like the sexual desire of the animal. Right, there's there's certain overlaps. You go out,

you listen to figure out where you're gonna go. You sort of pick a bird. You're gonna try to work. You're picking up you're gonna try to work. Um. So there are like undeniable similarities. They don't nearly amount to the number of differences, but there's some reference points there. In Turkey hunting is a thing that everyone resorts to. You hear it all the time. Was like the old silent treatment, right that you'll get you'll be hen calling to a bird, to a gobbler, he's goblin's ass off.

But after why I realized that, like he's gobbling, he's having the time of his day. Uh, he's probably strutting. And he realized that, like he's really enjoying himself. I mean, like he doesn't he's not in your head. He's like he won't come in whatever. He's just like he's thinking that he's doing what he's supposed to be doing. He's like, what what more can I do? I'm gobbling, I'm strutting. Why is the hen not coming over here? Like I'm yeah,

this is great. Any minute she's gonna show up. Um, And then you do the old silent treatment, thinking that uh, you know whatever it is, Yeah, curiosity, you'll kill him and he'll come over to see what the hell happened. I don't know I do it. Oh yeah, I can't tell you. I don't know. I can't tell you like empirically that it works. But it's like one of the plays in the playbook. I kept waiting for you to at times do that, but you don't do that without I.

I have like the patience of like none. And so the times I tell myself I'm gonna wait like five seconds to calcol or five minutes to calcol usually get about thirty six seconds in and I'm calcol again. Um. The only time I tried to like stagger things out was when we set up on the bowl right before

the bowl that you ended up killing that one. That was kind of I tried to put time in there, but it's just I feel like that time of nobody talking, either me or that bowl is giving him a chance to get away without me knowing what the heck is going on, And so like that pause, like did he just did he now just walk a hundred yards away from us. And I didn't know because I sat and waited for three minutes until I let a call out. So there's maybe there's some like anxiety on my side

that if we don't keep him talking, uh. But but then there were times where I also realized on that specific bowl that if I if I cow called five or six times in a short time, he would stop. He would only answer the first cow call right, and then the other five were kind of just extras or he wouldn't. But then if I would wait a couple of minutes, he would then respond again. So it was

like he was only answering that first round of cow calls. Um. And that was the only bowl I think I didn't biggle at maybe tell the end because I lost his interest. We couldn't even get him to answer a caw call after what twenty minutes of you guys being set up. But yeah, we try the silent treatment a lot, but more that's more of like progression three or four, Like we never got there to the point where these things were just is he there? Is he hanging up? Do

we need to be quiet? Do we need to uh? Yeah? So so why I think they're they're you know, similar to tricky out and there's a lot of being quiet. Um. I'm not good at it, and I try to try to make a play where there's a little noise involved. I feel like I asked you about this one in the past. This is my last out question for you. I'll see if these, uh, these fellas happeny for you. But we talked about the past, like sometimes you rip a bugle and at least it's People discussed this as

being true. You rip a bugle and it just and it it pushes the bull away. Not that he's like as a person, but it could be that he doesn't feel like having a confrontation. And we had one where I don't we couldn't really tell if they winted us. It didn't seem like they did, but there was a bull that would respond. But then when we got eyeballs on him, everybody was just going in the other direction. Do you think that, uh, do you think that that's the thing that they are They just bail because they

don't want to deal with another bull. I find it more in like you're semimature bulls, Like if he's been fortunate enough to somehow peel some cows off of a herd. You know, we were hunting boll There were a couple of herds I guess with seven or eight cows, But the majority of these bulls here there's a high bowld of cow rat that they've got very small herds, Like even the big bulls are running four or five cows, like two cows and a calf is like their harems.

So you take a semimateur bowl that's been able to peel a few cows off that bowl is less confident in his ability to probably defend those defend his possession of those cows. So if you announce that you're coming to him and that you're getting closer and closer by bugles, that guy's best option is to grab his cows and leave,

like avoid the confrontation completely. Now, if you can get him to answer, he will sometimes answer for four or yards away and just hold tight because he's just kind of you know, social talk like hey I'm here, well, hey i'm over here. But if you were now to be quiet and kind of guessed where he was at and then sneak in on him, you've now taken away

his ability to like round his cows. Up and leave, and so that's kind of why we try to use it's kind of surprised, but we know he's there, so we know it's gonna be you know, it's a surprise from our end, but he doesn't really know. He's getting set up um for us to be that close and give him, you know, it's that whole fight or flight response. We're giving him like no other option but to fight or just run away and leave his cows to us. Yeah, or you're close enough that if he moves thirty yards

to investigate, he's in your zone. Yeah, yeah, you're there. And so that's where a lot of what we did was just you know, we fought the wind a little bit, not too much. New Mexico treated us pretty well with pretty consistent winds. There was a couple of days where our morning hunts were tough because we were coming off the top trying to go down. But yeah, just get the wind right, semi right, and then um moving close otherwise otherwise that biagle could potentially just scare them off

and then you're like dang every time. You know. That's where that's where I think the bad, the bad reputation for biggling comes in as everybody's like, man, I'm bagled at this bowl and he just took his cows and ran away. Well, did you do it from five yards and then fo two hundred your whole way in? Or did you then go silent, get close and be and it's it's a different it's a completely different message, sinding versus beagle in your whole way in. We had um

a couple of years ago. I was hunting with my brother two years two was it two falls ago? I ain't two falls a go either way. We watched the bowl all morning and tried to call him in, and he had a bunch of coles with him and eventually bedded down. It would bugle a little bit from his bed, and we worked him all morning from different angles, but he betted in such a place that we could like drop a pin on where he was come around the

air direction. I mean we got seventy five yards somewhere he was bedding, and my brother snuck out a little bit ahead of me and one bugle and he you know, my brother killed him at like twenty yards. But that was all morning trying to give him to do stuff. We were down below. He's on the Hillside was just that one minute where somehow he was like what in the hell? Yeah, and there it got up, you know, But it was just like we were like in his

in his zone, man, you know what I mean. And then we got him to do what we could not and we couldn't get them to take one step in our direction all morning. But he was betted. The cows are betted around and at that minute he's like for whatever, He's like, no, I'm gonna go there and look real protective. We didn't have to get into whole lot of bedroom strategy, but they're very protective of their bedroom. When you get that close to him and his cows. What do you guys?

Got you any questions? I got an observation. Um, the other thing I really like like being with you on on these hell counts where you're calling. It's like I get riled up the more you're reacting to the the other, Like, so, do you feel like you're a Coelcra bull bowl out with my body at the barbie and like empathize with you, empathize with the bulls? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and the like you know how like a conflict with humans will slowly escalating people start check like yelling over each other.

Jason would do the same. Like initially there'll be the pauses of like this is who I am, this is what I got, and then when he gets like fired up, you'd like step on his his like like when we were arguing about nutrition. Yeah, just yelling over each other and and then that that physically would bring them in. It's just it's really cool being able to watch that

or feel it. Yeah, even fuel the energy up. Yeah, and like oh yeah, like the real you know, it's getting like heavy when I'm like quickly reaching for my tube, like damn it. If would have had that in my hand, that would have been better off. But I'm trying to grab it as fast as I can. And I shouldn't have said it that, but yeah, it's you start the conversation out cordial and then you you end up piste

off at him by the end. That's kind of what you're and I I, as a by standard, was getting piste off at him too, Like can tell what's up, Jason,

don't take that ship. I've I've got a m so I think a lot of people, at least myself and a lot of guys that I know are hunting elk that have been called to quite a bit fairly high pressured areas, and the key to killing those elk with calling strategy is sounding like a real bowl For people out there, what would you say are maybe the three main notes or calls or like the three three or four main takeaways that the people can practice to sound

like a real you know, a real elk. I mean like breaking brush is great and then not a lot of people you know probably think of that as much. But yeah, I've got a very very good buddy, that very successful el hunter, and he doesn't call near as much as me. He's as aggressive as I am, but he he feels that he can get the bigger bowls to break just with breaking brush and making noise. Um. You know, you pair that I would sounding like a

real elk is gonna take a ton of ton of time. Um. You know, we've we we've got products that we try to use, like the easy bugler Um to really cut that learning curve down to make you sound as realistic as possible. But they're still gonna be stuff left on the table. You can't lip ball through it like you can in there are certain situations right be dead in the water. Without that, um, I'm not gonna be able

to give you a great answer. I would say, if you can perfect just your normal col mu, get it very very clean and um, and then you need to have some sort of a challenge bugle. But there there's no easy way to sound as realistic as possible without just like, yeah, I mean a lot of I think your elk hunters picked their calls up, you know, a couple of days before season and they go out and

they're they're good enough. Um, but the first first you bake it on your dashboard for a while, yeah, in late August, let him melt, and then you call it stop signs, called the red light. So you know, it's a guy that's dedicated the last twenty years of my life to you know, being the best elk caller I can, like a lot of people don't have that time, you know, to mess with it. But um, you know between external cow calls, um, figuring out one or two good bugles

and it's just you know, a lot of practice. But I would say it's for I would go in with an an you know cow call, maybe an extrus wine, going with a challenge bugle, and then going with like a high pitched, clean locator bugle and and get very good at those three calls. I remember, what's type of golf where you can only pick like two clubs or something. It's like, there's like a certain type of golf where you can take like three clubs and play the whole course.

But that's that's yeah, that's like minimalist golf. Yeah, yeah, you pick your three clubs that you need. God No, I've drank beer and chased my golf ball around and deep stuff a couple of times, but never golf. That's not It seems like the golf industry would not like a kind of golf where you don't have to have a lot of clubs. It's some special kind of tournament,

I think. But but that's like, you know, there's a volleyball where you can't touch it with your hands only because you were telling me about it the other night. You have to like use your feet. We're sitting at a bar in airport, me and South and I was surprised the volleyball is on TV, and then realized I couldn't figure out what seemed weird about it, and never realized that they couldn't use their hands. It's like, man, these guys are leaving off one of the best tools

in the toolbox. You'll spite. Yeah, so those three a good cow call, a good challenge, biogle in to the locator and then figure out what tools you need to make that. There's a bunch of different ways to do it. But man, that lip ball was effective though. If you can get that down, yeah, I mean, that's that's one

of those main tools. Where like to the least two the bowls I've seen turn and they were leaving like I've had enough, I don't believe you, I can't see you, and hit him with a lip ball, and it's that's one of the most special things to see. And we saw it a couple of times. Uh. To see one leaving and then change his mind and come back, it is pretty incredible. Man. That's that's like some real emotional

up and downs for the hall. Like that's if I could hang my hat on like anything I can do calling that would be like I just turned he was leaving and I turned him all the way like he had already changed his mind and I got him to recommit. It's like you're in a fight and you're like the mama. Yea argue with your wife, you like, walk out and you come back in another day. Um I was talking about was talking about Norm McDonald, but some how that made me think of the late comedian Mitch Hadburg. You

know him. I know he's talking about how he was talking about why he didn't like camping and he felt that it was when he got in the fight with his girlfriend. It was hard to express his anger because he tried to aggressively zip the tent shut. Uh. Oh man, it was great hunting with you. Man, it was fun. Um to find you were like how to find everybody gold Phelps game calls and tell everybody what you do in September with the crazy dude. If I go on

Instagram right now, you're you're pretty, it's it's overwhelming. I want to talk about like your your desire to be on there, because you were giving me all kinds of I I was unsure of whether Steve could be on there with his kill before anything else supposed, but he wanted to be on the Phelps brag board first, which I appreciate. Yeah, the Felps brag board explain it. So we did something. We started I think three or four

years ago where it's kind of that customer appreciation customer success. Um. We post anybody's elk that they kill with our calls on our Instagram page for the world to see, and we just kind of want to know, like what calls he used, kind of a little bit about the scenario. And it's not just big bowls, even though there's a lot of them showing up, but anybody's using our calls,

calls in a cow, a spike, a bull. We're posting it up and giving some feedback, and it's meant to be you know, kind of a thank you to all of our you know, call users, but also a little bit of an education of what calls people are using, maybe a little bit on the set up, what call they actually did to get that bull in um, and then kind of what states. So we're kind of just

sharing information from some of our customers success. I mean, it just it may piss people off if they follow us, but when you get on there, there's probably gonna be twenty or thirty posts, you know, every couple of hours from us with just you know bulls that are what I like about it too, is uh, I mean, it's big bulls first bulls, hundred bulls, cows, spikes. Yeah, it's fun man, Yeah, it's just what you're just it's fun

to look at. It just rolls out. A friend of mine called up, He's like, it is staggering the number of people killed phelps games. Yeah, it's a matter of fact. Somebody asking me their day. Do you ever like stop and think about what you what you've did, Like how many Elk have like died And I don't like to think of it as like necessarily killed, but like we were able to add to that experience, like we've been up. We were able to add to the success and add

to their experience. But I don't necessarily want I'm not like that bloodst It's not occurring outside of like game management objectives, you know, not necessarily blood there like oh we you know four d four thousand, seven hundred nine all died because of us. Yes, you're looking at it. It's like when you look at it, it's one thing about it is um the amount of human joy in sense of accomplishment captured in the photos. Yeah, it's just like what I was looking at a bunch of this morning.

It's like first out, finally did it? Uh, you know, my my brother in law finally got his first bawl, my wife finally got her full first ball. That's whatever, man, It's like people like being out in the woods, like having fun and then feeling like thankful that they had the experience and had the tools and expertise. It's a lot of fun, man. Yeah, I I I got a

ton of enjoyment out of that. And you know, I get to deal with him a little bit on the back end, like asked him about their experience and it's cool. You know, everybody wants to kind of did it without years. I'm like, do not say that, Like it's it's just like a carpenter. Yeah, they got a hammer. That's just a tool that lets them get their job done. But the skill was still you. You made all the right decisions. Um,

we're just We're just a tool in your toolbox. But I'm glad you trusted in us to to use our calls and and to use our you know, our stuff in your experience. So and A Jason had to defend the honor of a man who was criticized for shooting a spike, which is the stupidest criticism in the world. Oh, I got so mad I was gonna Chester. Was me and Chester bunked together in our spike tent and Chester

was the only thing close. Now he was gonna get punched because I was getting so frustrated, and I told Chester, like I hate dealing with these assholes. Bring it on. Chester is gonna punch me back. I'd like to see you Chester d get out. But now it's one of those things like is it is it legal? Is it? That's all that really matters? Is it legal? And who the hell else cares about anything? You know, this guy was making a first attacks and personally, which pisses me off, like, oh,

look at you. You don't need to eat a spike, Like basically commenting on the guy's stat doesn't. Oh, says guy a bigger I always just saying, so you don't need the meat. I can tell because you see your body well, so you can't say you killed the spike because of its size. So it first she attacks him personally, then he attacks him like on a population elk population. But I completely like reduced that to that spike isn't

gonna probably reproduce for four years. I mean, you talked about this a little bit, like the only argument that guy would have is that maybe in four or five years, if he's this big quote unquote professional, you know, mature bowl killer, he would maybe have a shot at killing that bowl in four or five years. But other than that, there's like no legitimate argument. And I don't have time to sit and like you know, pigs love the wrestle on the mug, and I just was out of it.

Like I wrestled with him for a little bit, and I'm like, oh, the block button. It just takes care of all my issues and I can my blood pressure can come back down. Didn't He didn't even need to punch Chester. No, No, I Chester was trying to go to sleep, and I saw my phone just over there like lit up, getting frustrated as all hell. This year, I like those spikes, man, Yeah, I'll put it on that I've never got a spike. A lot of you know, ot areas that were hunting. You can't. You got branch out,

branch out with bull um. My brother Danny, he used to hunt. He was working in Washington on the Saints some salmon projects and he used to hunt these units where it was spike only. And he said, you know, you're out hunting you just think like, oh, ship, how hard it can be to find a spike? He goes, Man, you're gonna do a spike on the area, and you realize, like how hard is Like, on one hand, it seems like they're around, because when you're looking for one, all studs,

like every bowl there's a big bull. How the spikes did we see on this hunt? Zero zero zero? Yeah, he was saying, like that can't be that hard. Turns out a whole different story man. Yeah, alright, guys, Sam, thanks for the uh producing this this episode. We just made something part of our part of our season ten. Yeah, last episode of season ten. That's our apt So it rolls out in two batches. We got one batche launched in September right nine, so we got a batch episodes

hitting Netflix September twenty nine. Filed up a couple months later with the with the batch of five more episodes of which this will be a part, so you'll be able to watch all this stuff we're talking about. This is gonna be one of our This is gonna be one of our best episodes, man, because just the amount of interactions, the amount of wildlife interactions in it, and besides archery is the coolest thing. I know you like it.

We're talking about deer. Jay said, all the deer hunting I've done that, one of them is bugled at me. The duet, the ducks and geese don't have horns. There's all the kind of reasons why owk ends up being the best. And he also vowed to not kill a white till until he's seventy. I changed my mind. My good buddy Randy Milligan where he cut the three down, invited me to Kansas and he's got some some good bucks. I'm gonna entertain that. But home. You're not gonna do

that before we go coust deer hunting? Are you? No? After it? I'll be like, if I'm with you, that'll be your first white tail? How I spot it? I hope you do too, obviously, Yeah, I got felt you'd be crazy to turn down on Randy's place. Oh at that place is what dreams are made of when it comes to white tail chiger habitat. I'll go in there in the winter. I just say, chiggers in the fall should be down right? You have. But what I'm gonna do when we do this line one turkey hunt giveaway.

I'm gonna, um probably carry a bucket of promethron and like a wash tub of around. You know, I'm gonna stand in that tub. I'm gonna carry it around, set that tub down, and stand in that tub hunt out of it. That's my plan. That's my hunt plan. It's a chickerbike giveaway, all right. So then Jason, we'll have you back on when we do our we hunt coups here and um, thanks again to everybody and Sam, thanks getting to you for the wonderful job you're putting this episode together. So you guys p