Ep. 279: Controlled Rot with Brad Leone

His name was Vinny. His name is Vinny. Yeah, Vinny de Letta, a good guy, good fishing buddy of mine, buddy of mine, and I just really dialed in on the on salt water and I told him I was coming out here, and uh, you know, he has a little walking and stuff that he had one of these blue thin hanging in there, smaller one, you know, like seventy pounds or something, but at times that's the most

expense of fish in the world. Oh yeah, yeah. So he they also catch some pretty big ones, you know, some some giant ones pounders that uh you know, going He's got a commercial license and they'll head out. I'm pretty sure they just go to Japan, don't they go? Like you can catch a blue fen. You don't really know when you catch it if you got gold or not. Oh and they take a little don't they take like a little core sample? Yeah, yeah, out of the fish. We've seen it on the on the show, right was

and then wicked Wicked wicked tuna. Right. They bring it to the dock and they have it's almost like, yeah, it's almost like what you'd see like like an old Italian guy like taking a core of parmesan cheese with like just like this little cylinder hollowed. I'm sure it

has a name. It's probably from the cheese world. But they would go in there and they would take a core sample like you would have of the earth, uh, and see the quality of the meat, the marbleization of the fat, and and then they declare like this fish is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think it's just by pounds. So it's like either it's like this is a ten dollar or fifth sixteen dollar fish or whatever per pound. And you know, and is that good

stuff laid out in front of your don't you know? Yeah? I mean I'm not I'm not Mr Blue Thin, but it's certainly good eating fish. Um. You know it was just caught a few days ago, and I froze it to bring it out here slab to good old loin there. I wish we could have brought the belly, but old Viny wasn't. It wasn't feeling. That is a tight ask. Yeah, I don't want to say no. No, Ivinny's a gem. He was a tight ass. He wouldn't have given you anything.

It's very true. Would you just real quick ranking like scale one to ten amongst your other good friends? Like where is he lying? Yeah? No, ivinn he's up there, man. Then he don't want to put a number to it though. It's a dangerous game, you know, and the world of friend. I haven't known him long enough to give him a ten,

but he's he's cat eight, Cat nine. Uh. Well, we're gonna get into ranking because that's why Chester sitting here right now, because it's just some brutal ranking chesters doom while we were fishing, which I thought was like very untoward. It was a little harsh. One has ever said that word on this show? Untoward? Might using it right? Yeah, nope, don't, don't. Don't have the slightest just what it means. But it felt untoward when I struggle for a word to describe.

But while we got you, Brad, then we'll introduce some other folks. Um talk about what like who you are? Yeah, so names Bradley One grew up in northern New Jersey and I got a YouTube show with uh with Bone Appetite Magazine, a publication out of New York where we do it. It's the show is called It's Alive. And I started off doing a lot of fermentation and in kitchen projects and then really, you know, like for me,

I never really liked that that's the It's Alive that. Yeah, yeah, exactly started with with the buff Bill probably knew about that long time ago. He probably caught that long film gets it and uh, you know it started with like you know, the the gut health and microbiology and just old world applications of food. You know, it's like pre refrigeration, you know, pre f d A and all the the bs they bring to the table. You know, just you're just gonna come and trash a whole. I'm done with

the FDA. They can come at me. I don't care. And you and I get it. I get it. It's a blanket. I've always felt and maybe this is that's fine, bring it and I probably shoot better and and you know, and like I'm maybe it's the narcissism in me, but like I've never felt like this is horrible. I was like I fell under the umbrella of branklet blanketed regulation, you know, like, oh, no turning on red at this top side. Well, that's just kind of for everybody else,

Like like, you know, I'm squared away. I know how to do this, and I kind of feel that way with food, you know, those regulation like those regulations are they're probably smart and for the general population, I'm sure it is with good intention. You know, we don't want to but at the same time, I disagree with a

lot of it. You know, It's just it's kind of um, it's just that blanketed security of just like oh, you gotta put your whatever in the fridge as soon as you pick it from and it's just really they've been doing this for thousands, hundreds of thousands of years, you know, and the idea of getting back to you know, the fermentation, the idea of controlled as a food and as really like the base of oo mommy, and how like our bodies are just kind of designed to like we I

feel like we need them. You need like our bodies need that. Our gut by omen are like more than we really kind of modern society, especially in America, allow it. You know, like everything is so like buy it now, by it super fresh, keep it in the fridge. You know, if they got it gets a little mold, it's gonna kill you and your whole family. And it's just not really the case for them. I mean, not to be

a little real real food health things. You know, like there's major you know, food born illnesses are a very serious thing, and not to underplay that, but just like things like raw fish or or salted meat. You know, there's a couple of guidelines that if you stay within. It seems like people have been getting away with it for a long time. You know, what's your professional food background, Like you've done like commercial work and all that commercial

kitchen stuff. Yeah. So, I mean the way it all started was I just really liked eating, you know, and like my mom and my dad, they were both good cooks. Never really had good ingredients other than what we what um I mean, other than what we grew Speaking of eating, I want you to act like you're eating that mic just right in it usually get loud. It's disgusting and uh yeah. So like other than what my parents would grow, we always have like a nice garden, good tomatoes, like zucchini's,

like so many zucchini's. We had to like a fond memory growing up is like my dad would walk around to the neighborhood back when community mattered, you know, and and just give away all of our like bumper crop. You know, if we just had like a you know, a radio flyer full of zucchini and egg plant, you know, like come on, Brad, We're going up to Donna and Mike's and you know the mug nos and we're just gonna start giving away with the produce. And so like we cooked at that and then my dad he's he's

just great man. He got me into like hunting and fishing and being in New Jersey. It's not something people really think of, you know, like, oh, you're from New Jersey. It's one of the lowest participation states, is it really? I mean, California, New Jersey are sub It's probably gotten more dear than most states, you know, like it's a problem. Yeah, because actually and like just growing up and they all

complain about the damn dear. Oh yeah, man, and they always complaining both the turkeys just living in people sure fire away to get rid of turkeys. What's that you'd go hunting for him? Yeah, well they're tricky little dino. But then people downtown or like in these suburban areas, they're like they live in fear of the turkeys. Yeah, oh yeah, get in my car because the turkey was gobbling. People get freaked out from nature, you know, and U and there's a lot of them New Jersey like there is.

There's a lot of deer, a lot of turkeys. Where I grew up in northern New Jersey, ton of black bears. And you know the answer your question back on the car, How did I get into a dog on New Jersey? No? Oh no, man, A lot of coyotes. There's there's big cats there too. You know, the state doesn't really recognize it, but oh they're there. And Tebou mountain lions. Mountain lions. Okay, well I'm gonna leave that one hanging. Yeah, we can

come back to that. But yeah, so you know, growing up in New Jersey, I was luckily my dad, you know, he's like the most New Jersey guy. Like we would go gigging for frogs and go, you know, catch snapping turtles and make soup. And then it got me and he didn't. He didn't really like freshwater fishing too much. He didn't really care for like the small lines and and like tiny tiny tiny knots and ship It wasn't the small fish that turned them off. Yeah, he ain't

eating nothing out of the lake. Everything tastes like mud. Kind of deal, you know, except oh if Yeah, I mean, if you were have ocean in front of you and fresh water behind you, I would have a pretty difficult time. But you know what I mean, You're from Michigan, right, you get there's something peaceful about the It's great. I love what I'm saying. In that environment where you have that, right and then fresh it would just I would probably be more ocean focused for sure. And that was my dad.

I mean, you know, he was a meat I want to catch it I can eat, you know, and like that was his thing. I'm gonna spend a hundred dollars. I want to come home with worth of fish, you know. Otherwise you know, he saved up. You know, he was a mailman. He would save up to go fishing. You know, I didn't have a boat. We'd go out on party boats or or a friends boat you know that he had or something. Um, but being you know, being exposed to that world and saltwater, just being so much more

aggressive and fast. You know, it's just a different, different beast. Um certainly wasn't getting me into fly fish, and I picked that up in the past two to three years. Just kind of self taught with some buddies. Um, but keep being being exposed to hunting, fishing, going out and catching you know, blue fish and sea robbins and striped bass and you know, mostly just kind of insure stuff blue claw crabs. I mean, you cook those sea robbins up.

It's one of my favorites. Such an underrated man. They are a blind fish dinosaur, right, looks like it belongs like somewhere down in the coral reef or something. Yeah, he's got I don't know, man, like a twelve inch fish. He's got pectoral fins look like dinner plates. Yeah, and they're beautiful right then. I mean things like a piece of art like the wings. What do you do with those? But what do you do with them. How do you prepare them? Oh, they're great. So it's kind of just like, man,

people hate those fish. People hate them, and they're ugly, and they got these heads on them like a diet like grunt that young ship. And they got these big old wings for pectoral fins. But the tail you know, we were talking about this yesterday, Callahan, I think it was with you. I was like, got some of these fish. You gotta you gotta cut the tail off. You gotta soak it in milk for two days otherwise it's like inedible, and it's just not it's just not the case. You know,

Like the same thing with any fish. As soon as I can, as soon as I catch it, if I plan to, you know, consume it or kill it, I kill it instantly, bleed it out, the same way I would with your trophy fish. You know. Like I'm just completely over the whole junk fish thing. It's only junk if you treat it like junk, you know what I mean, the robbins or the sea robbins, and you cut the tail off, and uh from there, it's just like you do or don't cut the tail off. You do, So

that's okay. Sorry, so, like like any fish, as soon as you kill it, bleed it out, get it on ice. But why are you getting rid of his tail? That's the part you eat, so you cut it off to eat it? Prepare the ta ditched the head? You don't mean it's tail, Yeah, like it's body, not like it's little like you know, not the little yeah, not the fin, but like the it's body. It's all because Yeah. To understand why he's saying tail, you don't have to wander over to your computer and look up what the hell?

And they're amazing. I like what you're saying. Oh at the tail, you gotta come out and okay with us? No, no no, listen, I'm all for eating him, just saying if you said, cut its tail off, because here's here's here's where my head's going. My kind of like halibit, shrimp and crab mentor. He was a commercial halibut fisherman and he would bleed his halibit and somehow he thought that they had like a pressure lock, you know, valve, So he would cut the gill and then he would

go and cut the tail. Oh, like open the circuit. What's that called on a fish? The pet? Is it the pedicle. The pedicle like the base, the thin part the base of the tail. He cut there as though he had to do like a pressure release thing instead of like a full loop. He would open the circuit. Yeah, so that the blood like somehow there's like a vacuum sort of quality in the fish, and you'd cut its gill, but then to allow the blood to like come out, you had to like release the vacuum by cutting it

back by its tail. We had a lot laugh about. But when you come out cutting the tail, A thought, I thought you're tom about. I thought you'd been hanging out with him. No, it sounds like I should. But yeah, for I mean, it's kind of like what would you call a monkfish, Like the part that you eat of a monkfish, the monkfish tail, right, I think. So it's basically just like a lot of you would eat. They don't have to call that the tail. Snake don't have parts.

Snakes are just snakes. No, But like, yeah, so this fish is just like a lot of head fins, looking at a lot of head fins, and then it's just like a big meaty tail and the tail, sure, the body we can call it. So you got it, cut the head off, and then it's just like a big you know, it's got the big got a spine going, spine bone going through it, and then it's just got a nice white, fleshed, kind of firm, meaty body tail

kind of like a blowfish. Ever have like a you know the blowfish where it's just like the bone through the middle and just like amazing meat around it. Yeah, I'm ready to move on, but I'm just saying I would say this next time you're on a podcast. Yeah, it's almost Robbins. I'd be like, then you cut the body off. We cut the body off, and you eat them. They're great. They're great in stews or suit just ping. Is it good? It is good? Just to fry it. Oh yeah, it's sweet as candy. Why is it um?

Why does it have a bad reputation? I kind of like bluegills or or whitefish that we were fishing for yoush Yeah, mountain whitefish. You know, there's just an abundance of them, and they're usually you know, you're it's when you're going for black sea bass, are you're going for flounder. It's not what people are targeting. So it's more like the it's like, oh, oh, I gotta yeah, I got a poke and it comes up, you're like, god, son of a bitch, it's another sea robin. A peduncle, but dunkle,

not pedicle duncle. The definition is erally similar um the caudal peduncle that sounds right, which is basically fish handle, is the narrow region of a fish's body anterior to the caudal finn. You know what, Yeah, I think they're illegal now, but maybe once upon a time they weren't. You see those tail zippers for land and fish tail zippers.

My old man had one and it would make their own like it was a rod with a cable snare on the end of it, a little slip cable dude, and you went instead of like landing net and the fish put that pullet tight. But here's the thing. If you saw a salmon like in a river, hiding under a log whatever, and you see his tail sticking out, you can just put that thing down in there and jack him right up on the bank and get It's kind of like I think that they became a you

know what, Chester is nodding knowingly. Yeah, I've seen them. I haven't used them. But deadly apparatus. Yea still common for patalfish anglers use him. I don't know that it's legal, but I still see him use him a lot. I saw I saw people jack a lot of fish up out of a river that weren't nothing to do with the hook, right, because you could come in behind it when he's holding the current and just one fluid motion that fishes up on the bank. Who I'd beaus a

rise of it is illegal. It doesn't seem like it's there was. I think that there was, it was or became, or it should be. I don't want to just come in and say it should be. I don't think you

should be going but your spearfish. Listen When I say that, I mean this based on traditional use practices and things, I could see where an agency, a state agency, based on their management objectives, would say that this is a piece of equipment that is just too likely to be misused, and our particular thing, in our particular situation is too

likely to be misused. Meaning let's say you're walking down the creek with a pitchfork, okay in Michigan, and here comes the game, and here comes the game warden, and he's like, what's up with the pitchford And you're like, oh, I'm thinking think about making a garden out here in the national forest. Um. He's probably be like, I think you're thinking about pitchfork and some fish out of the river.

Oh yeah, okay, yeah, I've never known. You can't. Yeah, but you could can't pitch fork salmon out of the river. But could you dive with your you know? What's that like the Hawaiian sing no hard, no, hard no depends not not on a game fish, not on a sport fish, sport fish. All right, fair enough? Joined also buy Spencer, new hearth Spencer. We're gonna talk about something that has deep relevance to you as a rock picker. We're gonna talk about um or rockside rockhound. That's better. Oh well,

a rock picker getting ready to live. A rock picker, if you ask dug during, a rock picker is a guy that you a kid, that you send out into the field, an agricultural field, to gather up all the rocks and throw them out of the field. All right, so you don't bust your hay teeth on him because you don't want to. It's a the rock ain't growing anything, and then it's it's in the way of it's in the agriculture. Yeah. And so picking rocks is like what

you're doing, you're get in trouble. Yeah, and you can make They're like you're gonna rocks and you make a stone wall. Right now. If you asked our beloved Tracy Crane what rock picking meant, she would think it meant walking around out in the field picking rocks. So then you can make a chimney out of it. Oh, that's fun, which she did, beautiful. Different types of rock pickers. She overpicked, she overharvested. That's okay, on pallets full of damn rocks.

Good money in that, uh. Or you could be a rockhound. I'm a rockhound, which is when you walk around trying to pick up semi precious gemstones. Yeah, I see, mine aren't even valuable. I just find like everywhere I go. I already you know, I've been here for three days. I got two rocks, aready? Really? Yeah, everywhere I go I bring home a rock. I bring them on with

my kids. I don't know what they are, just find ones that like unique characterists, pretty something that kind of like captures time, you know, like I love a rock that has like a really weird. Say you find like an orange or red rock or something and it has like a really weird or just a very like a one white like sediment line like something happened a million, like some ship went down and this this is capturing it that getting to my kids. Would it mean less to you if I gave you a rock or do

you need to find it yourself? I would take a rock gift. Yeah, yeah, I'll set you up, all right, thanks man Um. The reason what we're gonna talk about has relevance dispenser is he as a rock hound. The rock he likes to target is a rock that's associated with riparian areas, excuse me, rivers, the edges of rivers,

the edges of rivers and streams. And so he's walking along and takes advantage of stream access law which allows a person to go down a river corridor, um and maybe not even be in the water, but be in below the average high water mark and it allows you to It's what allows you to take your canoe down the river, walk down the river, and he takes advantage

of that to go rockhunting. I was just explaining to somebody last week that we are currently in the rock hunting pre rut or the Yellowstone because because the water is coming down the river peaked and it's coming down, but it's not all the way down. So there's some like good rocks to be found, some good areas that that have fresh rocks, but we're in the pre rod stage. Will probably be a week or two from now. This

is fascinating, by the way. My question for this, well, well the one that's still out there thinking Tracy Crane move where oh you make a whole chimney out of those rocks. That's um chimney. Yeah, I don't have any real plans, but sure, you know my grandma her house and outside of Lockwood, Montana, on Old Hardened Road. The chimney is constructed with three chunks of a petrified tree that are you know as as they're thirty inches across and three ft long each sec. That's pretty cool, just

completely mineralized. Yeah, it is. It's pretty darn cool. Probably not for everybody, but it's pretty pretty dark cool. I wouldn't mind finding something like that. She said, Climb up that chimney and you know, and it's all interior or chimney, so it's all like living room three sixty around it. But she used to climb up that thing and plant orchids in the cracks and the rocks, and then have to occasionally climb back up there and miss them down.

What was the name of the road she lived on? Hardened? Old hardened, not hardened like it got hard Oh, hardened like the name? Yeah, like the town. Uht me if I'm wrong. Spencer the rock Spencer likes, and I've found more than a few. I'll point out. I believe it forms like this. I looked down on occasion. I believe it forms like this. Volcano erupts, engulfs a tree, hardens around the tree, but the tree burns away, leaving a cavity.

Water precipitates through that, and or no water comes through that, and the particulate matter whatever in the water that is left behind through this process turns into an egg You got it? Yeah, and and uh if the process like doesn't finish, you get petrified wood. And if it like completes, you get a Montana moss egget And you'll find some rocks that are both. They were like caught in purgatory between age and petrified wood. Those are those are some

specialist pieces. That's fascinating. Ice know a guy named Ray the Rockman Baker, and he had he was a professional

get hunter. He had a five gallon bucket full of mammoth teeth whoa because by catch and he would pile up these aggets and then if he had a good feeling about one, and Spencer is going to get into this too, if you had a good feeling about one, he would cut it with the bands, all right, m and then he and then you'd lay like holy cow, like, here's a gem grade tell us the story, jem grade eggs that tell us the story. Don't you cut it?

You don't want it all cracked up? You just like exposing what might be a cooler aesthetic on the inside. Have you taken the cutting ars and half yet? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I probably caught I don't know, twenty rocks or so. Um we've made like book ends with them. Really? Yeah? What do you got a wet saw or something? Yeah, it's a tile saw. So the same thing you'd use if you were going to, like, uh, put a back splash on your your kitchen. Less productive. Do you feel

like you might do you feel like you. Is it kind of in your mind that you're gonna craft me up books and book ends or something? Is that not? Yes, that's like you're saying your wife, Like you're laying in bed at night. You're like, you know what I might do? That's cool. I just haven't found the right Steve Rock yet, free rock. Maybe at the time it's coming. It's coming. Man. What's nice about the Yellowstone too? Is it? It's cold water and so those rocks aren't growing a bunch of algae.

That water comes down and so you get you get, you get a better look at what that rock y got. Trail cams opals rock no Chester Chester. You used a guide on the Yellastone said that every lunch break with clients they would look for rocks. Yeah, past the time and and just to get away from the folks if you didn't really cis is that what you're doing yesterday? No? We should um, but we should have won rock Hounting.

I was going to say that, but yeah, if you want to find get some rocks, just talk to a few fishing guides and you'd be set for life. Just most of the time at lunch, clients are sitting there eating lunch and fishing guides off, either picking rocks or smoking something in the bushes. Both sound great smoking fish. No, uh, Chester, we found out you got a new nickname now, chest CHESTI there from from rowing that boat. What it does do a man's pectoral muscles. You were looking good, Uncle

Chestie on that boat, right all. I never really thought about it. If you do that every damn day, I'm getting a little soft I imagine now that you quit. Yeah. Yeah, like if every day you said you had spend six hours on a rowing machine, six days a week, Yeah, I had you get pretty chested, pretty good triangle going, you know, from my shoulders down to the waist. And oh,

because that was massage. And Chester as he rode acting like I was missogy in him, but actually I was like, holy ship, mostly little shoulders from rowing that boat all over damn place. Yeah that was nice. I appreciate it. Yeah, you thought it was massage, and I was more like probing because it just it occurred to me all of a sudden, what that would do to a fellow. Yeah, that much rowing, that's not a workplace environment. And you get just anywhere. We're on a hell of a boat,

I'll tell you that it's a lot of trust. So speaking, we're talking about sea Robin speaking of trash fish. And we return to this minute after we talked about a few things. Um, we're fishing. We're out targeting mountain the mountain whitefish. And Chester Uh was taking us down a stretch of river. He knows real well because he guided it professionally for years and has floated it enough times where he's like, up ahead, you'll notice a rock, you know, Um, and Uh gave us a rating. Oh, but I wanted

can you explain your old nickname? How you became to be not Chester the investor, but Chester the tester. Sure, yeah, Bratt, I have too many. I don't know, not too many nick names, but a lot of them. When I was a young kid, Um, I would sit on the table my parents kitchen and a little I'm going back here. Actually, my my dad grew mushrooms for a living in Wisconsin, white Button Chitaki, Portabella. Um, and he sold that business to his brothers and started pickling the mushrooms. And I

would sit on that table. I know. That's what I want you to explain this better. He sold it, but then he sold his brother, but then became a client of his brother. Correct. Yes, they weren't business partners in pickling. We're not business partners in pickling. They did use their mushrooms for a while, but um, they stopped using them, not because of bad blood or anything, because they didn't

grow rooms. They harvested them too late. You want really small white button mushrooms for when you're pickling, and he was pursuing a different just a smaller white button like that Italian marinated for a non pickling market, garragus by sports. That's the white button. And um, anyways, they would test all these recipes in the kitchen they were originally going to do like some like a jam company, and then

they started pickling the mushrooms. And I would sit on that table as a little kid and pop these pickle mushrooms in my mouth and I really came. I really liked the Classic Sweet, which is one of their top sellers, so I was deemed the Chester to the tester back then. It's incredible. So yeah, but I gotta send some pickle

mushrooms here. Yeah, please do it, man. I love a good pick like a marinated kind of pickled mushroom straight up there they do different ones, some classic sweet which is just you know, sugar vinegar um, and then they do some bergamo um spiced ones um. You know. Chester's family produces as well. Is you can buy cocktail sets,

oh like like a little like bitters and stuff. Yeah, but it's all this like the old pickle stuff and this and that, and so you get a box like a gift box and it comes and it's like everything you need to make crazy ass cocktails for the holiday.

Can't throw a plug in for him getting there. Forest floor foods, Forest Floor Foods, eating Wisconsin good name, so you could get like a like a Manhattan kid, know, an old no sorry, an old fashioned kid Wisconsin old fashion sugarcubes, pickled this, pickled that, candy this pickled that, all in the box family and entrepreneurs over there. Chester the Tester. One of the reasons you got a lot of nicknames is because a lot of ship rhymes of Chester. Yeah,

that's true, definitely. And you're likable, you know, like it's like I feel like that's like a compliment. Like no one gives nicknames to people that they don't like, really, at least in person, never had a nickname. No one gives me a nickname, so that well, yeah, because like the best you do is bred the dad. Yeah, I blame my parents. My name sucks like barbarous Brad Barbe's bread the first one ever. I think I might even no good rhymes for Steve right now, you gotta make

it longer. It's like Steve Arino. Yeah, you do that, but that's not fun. It was short in a Torino I invented to fight moves called the Steve Arino. I hope I never see him. No, you don't want to see. One involves your teeth. One involves your going ads. Yeah, um, I put that together. Jester. Uh, you gave us a rating on the boat. Yes, that's what I'd like to explore. That's why I've invited you here today. I don't know how we ever came to that because they don't give ratings,

so maybe I wasn't very good at the ratings. But my thought process when you guys are fishing is ten is ten is as good as you can get. Like you can't get much, you can't get any better than ten? Right would you be at Oh? When he goes and I'm gonna do how he did it? He heard his feelings Chester. He goes seven, like as though, as he's gonna come in like a seven nine, right, seven in just seven. So he's like he's so he's being so precise, He's gonna like give me like a decimal, right, But

they're like, thinks about it changes his mind? Was that that was a total bullshit. It ruined my whole day. I'm sorry about that seven. And he's hing all the subcategories to come to his conclusion. I feel he's actually thinking about it and rates me. You had fishing mountain whitefish at a seven, and it turns around it gives Brad like not much worse than me. I did have a lot of missed half today being tangled up. Maybe not half today, maybe alright, a couple of good primo spots,

but Chester was crowding the water anyway. I'm sure there's a lot of subcategories in there, and he's doing the tallies and perhaps the bird nest like don't rank as significantly as just a good attitude. Yeah you know what. Yeah, he's like, no, it's a it's a hit, but it's not a big hit to bird nest. So what was Brad's rating like a six? Nine or something like that. It was, I think it was. It was like six five. I took it with a smile. The difference between the

six five and seven it's not much big. No, it's big in my mind. It's big in your mind. It is not. But if you were to like pop into my mind, you'd probably be like, oh, yeah, I'm happy with the seven right now. Well, I did two things. At first, I retaliated, and that's the one, the rate Chester as a rower. And then I gave him super low rating as a rower, just to just to hurt his feelings. Later in the day, I turned around and thought I would demonstrate generosity and I rated him as

a ten and left it at that. Which of those two approaches of mine was more effective Chester hurting you or demonstrating to you how to be generous? Um probably hurting me a little bit. Yeah, No, it actually didn't at all. I remember when you when you did the ten rating, I bumped you up to seven point to five.

So what could they improve on? Yeah, I mean we all can improve on stuff, right, like, so like I go into it, but just everything right, Like, we can all get better at casting, we can all get better at reading the water. We can all get better at setting a hook. Let's get one specific thing that Brad can take home. Mm hmm. Brad's casting was pretty darn good for not doing it much. Um, just being a little more patient on the back cast, letting that rod do the work less less of you know, human force.

Just that's what the fly rod is like a spring, right, So if you're patient on that cast and let that line roll out all the way behind you before you bring it forward, do you feel to give you a little tug, little tug back. So I wasn't letting it spool load up all the way. I was coming back a little premature, and I think yeah, And I think that was because, like it's exciting when you're out there,

you want to get it back in the water. And maybe maybe that's not true, especially with that bank flying past you. Yeah, and we're moving him crowding the water, him crowding the primo whitefish water. No, I'm just joshing you boat. You put the boat over some whitefish holes. Here's the thing. It's like, here's Chester's problem and identified

it for him. Chester has was for a long time as a trout guide, okay, and he was money focused, and he knew that if he took a client out and the client catches a big trout, Chester gets a big tip. And that worked its way deep into his psyche. Okay, so even if you say to Chester, we're fishing whitefish, something deep in his like reptilian brain want he can't help himself with position that boat for trout. I got a little you know, and and a lot of times

just couldn't help himself. And you you know that that whitefish is laying like where he's gonna lay, and that's kind of like under the gunnal because he wants you upward those where he thinks those big browns are lurking. What I did there was I could tell Brad had a little itch to catch some a few trout, and I could tell Steve really just wanted to catch whitefish. So I tried to play this little happy medium game away from the bank. I think we did all right.

Sometimes there's a big difference in the water between the back of the boat and the front of the boat too. You can definitely, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, just a real quick uh after you guided fisherman for how long? Since two thousand twelve? What somewhere right around in there, what's the biggest like just in very general terms, what is the biggest uh mistake or flaw you come to

see with angers? Like if you could give one piece of universal advice to fisherman, it would be what this is going to sound like, Yeah, well of course, but

it's so true. It's spend your time with your bait, your flies or whatever in the water because a lot of people get out there, they're messing around with their rods, they're trying to get to the spot, and if you actually think about it, their lines were only in the water for an hour and a half out of six hour day because they spend so much time messing around. So having your stuff dialed and ready to go is key because you'll just have it in the water in

front of the fish's face. Like the less false casting when you're fly fishing, the better just pick it up, get it in there, and try and keep it in there as long as you can, and it just ups your odds like you wouldn't believe. I'll tell you a story about that. But lines in the water is when Cal and I were fishing in Hawaii this year, we were doing something pretty close to the harbor. Um it just got like the end of the day, just gonna zip into the harbor, be done for the day. Is

that that lineback? Didn't you wa who on the way in? Like just not like you know what I mean, just like an afterthought almost the line ain't gonna catch anything in the boat. Yeah, that was you said, Hawaii. That was That was great. It happened so fast that the first was like I screwed up the reel, Like how

did I do that? That's amazing? That's great, man, that's like a significant like click reels Like, yeah, the first thing I thought, I thought, he's something up, broke something right, because like there's no other way to explain why that reels going, you know. And you guys landed that fish right out in front of the Marena. You had some of that fish last night. It was delicious. Yea and Chester in your defense, but you you got us on the fish man. We went out there to catch a

lot of white fish, and we did. At some point we even said, hey, listen, we don't need to catch anymore. Let's try We switched over and tried to catch a couple a couple of trout, which we did so if I had to rate you, because I don't think I did yesterday and I don't have a lot of experience. Was my first river fly fishing, uh drift but tend being this like thing that you know, this unicorn that

maybe doesn't exist. I had three in there. You know, I'd give you a good eight to in general angling, I fished a lot of like a lot of circumstances. I would put Chester higher. Yeah, just general cat nine angling, very high. Put a number to it. It was. It was a blast, though, I mean having having Bobbers go down and catch him whitefish, Like a lot of people do not like that for some odd reason. They don't

like catching whitefish. But man, it's fun, just cattish. And I'm glad you brought that up, Chester because it kind of reminded me of something a friend of mine told me.

And it just really it resonates. You know. It's like that first fish that Bobber goes down and before the client or the person fishing, you know, knows, they still hoping it's this big brown trouter abo and then when this white fish comes up, how many times you hear like, you know, like a little disappointment, But as you were fighting it, you feel you had this grin on ear to ear like you were a kid, you know, catching

your first fish. And I just hate that when it's like you get disappointed when it's not like the the Instagram picture fish that you wanted, you know, and and the white fish, I mean that was just that they don't come. They weren't jumping out of the water doing these crazy areals. But there were a ton of fun to catch, and then we end up cooking a bunch of them and they were just phenomenal. I just give me whitefish any day. It was so much better than

I thought they were gonna be. My favorite thing about that kind of fishing is um and we're like we're drifted down a river in a drift boat fishing nymphs under the water with a float bobber, and you know, inevitably you hook some bottom, you hook logs, you heard some rocks. But it's like when you tighten up on a hip and you feel the resistance, but you also realize that it moved in a familiar way. That's that

Like that moment is what I like. It's there, but then like it does something, yeah there, Like it doesn't get old. Another another former fishing guide that we work with, was saying that this is a dang good year to not be guiding on the yellow Stille because of the hood owl instriction restrictions that are sure to come and uh like the heat wave we have coming up. Do

you share that sentence? Yeah, I mean for people that don't know these rivers out here, once they hit I think it's around seventy degree water temps um, you want to shut the rivers down because with all this pressure, shut the rivers down to fishing at a certain time. They call it a hood owl. So at two o'clock a hood owl, a hoot owl. Yeah, yeah, they need to rebrand it. Yeah, so you just can you can

fish in the mornings. Um, but they don't want you fishing when that water gets above that certain temperature just because it's really hard on the fishing and can kill them. And it's a really low water year. So I mean usually the Yellowstone is the last river out here to kind of be put in a hoodo. But um, the way things are going, it's probably gonna be a pretty

warm year for these fish. And and I would say, if if you fancy yourself angler and you want to keep fishing during those times, you should really switch over from catching release to catch and keep like alm instead of going letting thirty of them go. Yeah, you're gonna be killing a high percentage of fish. I mean, even

when those tamps are in the sixties. Yeah, And I think if you are fishing, then it's like if you're gonna release, fight them fast, like a lot of people like to keep him on and it's just like get him in the boat and in the mornings when it's still cool, you can release him. If you're fighting them fast, fight him fast, unhook him, get him back. You're still killing fish. If you go and you're feeling all good about yourself, you let it's it's warm out and you

let twenty trout go. That day you killed a bunch of trout. You just did so what They just can't recover the stress of the of the catch exactly. It's it's worse. And trout are sensitive, I mean, like you know they they've done these like mortality things with large mouth bass. I mean, you still got it, you know you got you should handle them gently and all that, but um, they're not nearly as susceptible. They're not nearly as susceptible as trout to our trouar like are very

fragile in hot temperatures, cold water, high oxygen or or death. Right. I mean, they don't, they don't. They don't do well. But you know, you talked to bass guys and they'll look at them afterward and it's just hard to um. I'm not trying to say you should go stick your finger over their gills and all that, but they're they're tougher. But you're glad you're out of the guiding game for this summer. Chester. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean it's really busy out there, and uh, I'm kinda kind of had

my time. I'm happy, happy where I'm at, so but yeah, it's gonna be a rough year. I think. I feel like there is it kind of a young man's game,

or young person's game for that matter. You know, I'm sure there's so some older folks that just you know, go for you know, forty fifty years or something, but you know, just being on the boat with you for a day, doing that every day, I'm sure it's like when it's when it's go time, It's like guys are probably out there as much as possible, right, like making Hey, when it shines, I could see that, you know, being being taxing. It's not an easy job. It's fun, right,

but you're working. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I do know some guys that are really old and they've done it for a long time, and I'm surprised that they keep on going. But young man's game for sure, because they get you get bitter, yeah, bitter and kind of lazy. A lot of those old guys they kind of just went through the motions after a while and they'd still catch fish. But um, definitely a young man's game. You know what Chester told me to um is that after lunchtime,

people get sluggish. It starts to get warm, they eat to lunch. They always think the fishing got worse. They don't realize that they're in a their comatose such slow down own. Yeah, that's universal because they're not. They're not. They're just kind of like I think that's why it's smart to really have like kind of a light a

light lunch. Right, you go bring some big like Italian sub and a bag of chips, and you know what I'm saying, Like that's gonna put you down, you know, I feel like that you need something just lean like sushi. I know it's not like the best boat thing to bring around, but I forgot about her sushi. Oh I got it, and I'm plugging it. And that, you know, something that can keep you kind of like a protein, a little carbohydrate, you know, but not like fill you up.

The bread is kind of the enemy, I think when when you're fishing. Yeah, that's that's break up. Break out those open face sandwiches. You don't want to do the clothes face of lunch. That's a good fishing trip. Reduced the reduced the bread by a half. You catch a hell of a lot more fish. You catch more fish. There you go. I solved it. Uh okay, everybody, remember that what precipitated that long conversation was me pointing out

about Spencer being titilated. No doubt how he will become titilated when we turned to stream access because of the implications for his rock hounding. And I have a feeling as well. Then when we're talking about low water and all the bad things about that, when it comes to agricultural irrigation that hurts that hurts fish. He's over there licking his lips thinking about all those rocks, previously unexposed rocks he's going to pick through during the global end

times of low water. So another low here, here's another river access issue. A lot of people, I should say a lot handful of people wrote in about this. Years ago, I wrote a book and a big part of the book the book is called American Buffalo and it had kind of like two things that made it happen. I found a skull, So I found a buffalo skull um at a high elevation. It was like a really nice skull. And I explored this skull a lot, and I explored

the history of the species and all that. But another big part of the book is I drew a permit to uh A, drew a limited draw permit to hunt for a buffalo um in the area the wrangle St. Elias and Alaska. And we've got a lot of people writing in about this because when you have this this permit, I think the permit number is called d I four or five four. If you were to be if you were to draw d I four or five four um you and you get to looking at a map, you

realize there's a real problem. You have to access the hunt area along the river and and most of the things along the river is Native corporations. So in Alaska, like tribes are formed into corporations, and these corporations have shareholders, which is tribal members, and they're into all manner of businesses. They could be logging, mining, um, tourism things. You know. They have investments all over the world, uh a lot of extraction industry and other stuff. And they're managed on

the lands are managed on behalf of these shareholders. At the time that I drew the permit and wrote the book, Um, there was no way you could go on ott in the land to hunt right. You had to find and if you look at a map, they owned the ott in the land. The Native corporation land is like a corridor on each bank of the river and it's and it's hard to find little avenues to get up into the wrangle Saint Elias to hunt um without trespassing on Ottna land. You kind of gotta walk up creep bottoms

and stuff like that to get in there. Then for years, uh Otna started this program after I had the PERMITTA started this program where they would sell trespassing rights. They sold for a lot of money, but I think a lot of guys bought it. You could it was like a thousand bucks. So if you drew d I four five four, you could write a check to the Native Corporation for a thousand bucks and they would allow you to trespass and hunt at in the land. And it

became like a lot of people's avenue to hunt. Otna just now here, here's nothing I'll point out. Um. I used to run ads and like the Anchorage Daily News, they would run ads basically saying like, hey, hunters, don't go on our land, like reminding you not to go on their land to hunt. Um. They just issued a press release staying there there, so they're not allowing access on their lands and they're not selling hunting access. And a lot of people rolled in like, oh, the world's

coming to an end. Um. I think they have short memories because for super long time you couldn't either, then you could for a short period of time, and now you can't again. I don't think the world's coming to an end. I think it's kind of like it's just where it was people hunting that damn people been people been hunting that hunt successful. I mean, it's it's the success rates are very low, but a lot of people

don't even show up. Like the year I had, they gave out twenty four permits and four of us got one, low success rate. I don't think it's low because of that. Now, do you think they shut it down? Because sure they had, say the twenty folks that had permission, but then some folks just saw that as like, well, the frege. You know they're doing it, so we can just kind of tail into it. And I have no idea why it might be the shareholders felt that the interruption wasn't worth

the money. I don't I have no idea why it would be interesting to know. I don't know. I don't not I'm not like curious enough to really find out. I don't know that they don't have any obligation to explain why it's private land. They don't want to sell the permits anymore. But I just think that I don't think you can look at that and say that it's

indicative of anything, because it's private property. It's not like a closure of because in Alaska they're also right now facing like very serious closures of federally managed public lands to hunting. That's something to get in our open arms about. But you just don't have any control of what they want. It's it's their property, it's their land. They're gonna do it or not do it. But I don't think it's

emblemat of some broader thing. But it brings up this stream access stuff because you can to get through this narrow buffer, and in some places this buffer is like a couple hundred yards on either side. To get through it, you get into a stream and you put waiters on and weighed up that stream to get across the buffer, and then you can go where the hell you want. I think about that. Where's my interest meter? I'll turn it? Oh, I mean I think that is the thing with stream access, right, Like,

that's why it's such an important rule to fight for. Why, in my opinion, the folks in New Mexico need to like really get after the Fishing Game Commission is those The reason that commerce stream commerce was included in the Constitution of the United States is the fact that those waterways are a vital mode of transportation and always have been, and if you're like to hunting fish, they remain vital modes of transportation. Even beyond that, if you're a savvy

like bird watcher, mushroom picker or whatever. Like it is a means, it's a road, it's the highway. Yeah, exactly. If you're sitting there wondering what hells call time on New Mexico, all of a sudden, Well, because we're gonna be joined right now, real quick, and this is all this is all gonna become relevant. We're gonna be joined right now, real quick by Senator Martin Heinrich, who has been on the show before. He's a senator. He likes

to hunting fish. You go into his office, you've been in his office in d C. I have, yeah, all kind of skulls and hides and stuff hanging around. Oh yeah, no doubt, no doubt. It has cost him. He's probably gained from it. It's probably cost him. Yeah, I imagine it. Uh, if you were a truly savvy politician, you would uh not lay any cards out on the table. No, you'd be like, I am a blank sheet of paper. Well, he lays him out hard. Yeah, he's got horns and

antlers and it's great. Uh, we're gonna talk about a stream access issue in New Mexico right now. But um, he's gonna explain what's going on there, and then we're gonna tell you as well about why it matters to you. Okay, we're joined uh joining here right now by Senator Martin Heinrich from New Mexico. Longtime, longtime friend of the show. I've hunted with the Senator um. First off, first question.

We're talking about river access, stream access rules like the Okay, picture this for a minute, just to set the stage. You the listener picture of this picture that you go down to a boat launch on a river or on a lake, let's say, and you launch your boat. So you go to the boat launch, you launch your boat, and then you float down the river, or you cruise along the shoreline, and all of a sudden, you're not

out in front of the river access anymore. You're out in front of some dude's house, or you're out in front of a business, or you're floating down the river. And you're going down the river and on the right hand side is private property, it's homes. And on the left hand side, it's private property, it's homes. How is it that you're allowed to be in the river, even though one could argue that you're floating through private land.

Many of us grow up live our lives doing this without ever stopping to ask the question, Hey, why is it I'm allowed to float down the river? Um? Some people know in certain states, they know that that's a hell of a lot more complicated than it is in

most states. And we're gonna look at a a microcosm of some rules and potential rule all changes in New Mexico, which is remains relevant to whether you live in New Mexico or not, because we're gonna talk about Hobbl's rules exist challenges to those rules, and so it's not like so much New Mexico news. It's kind of American news. But we're looking at a case in New Mexico. But first, Senator Henri, did you draw any um sweet hunting tags

for New Mexico this year? One I got I've got a bull Elk tag in Unit fifty, which is the sort of Rio Grande del Norte national monument. So I

am I am looking forward to that. One of my one of my favorite things about Senator Heinrich is that as a U. S senator, he I mean, among many other hunts, one hunt as a U S senator, he drew a muzzleloader tag on national forest land and so if you're walking down the trailhead you would like pass a guy packing out a bowl what you got packing out a bowl with his muzzle loader and probably wouldn't be like, I bet that guy is a U. S. Senator um just out knocking around on national forest land,

which is kind of I don't know, it tickles me. So Senator Heinrich walk us through kind of like how stream access has been defined in New Mexico and how could it be that they still are you know, in two thousand twenty two are asked or one sorry, are asking questions about what it means. Well, I think you're asking the right question, Steve, because I think we should start with how things have been, because that was the basis for how stream access actually got UH codified in

Supreme law in the in the New Mexico Constitution. There was a long history in New Mexico of both Indian tradition, tribal tradition, and then Spanish law of people being able to access straight aims UH, including for fishing, so including waiting because unlike a lot of places in New Mexico, navigability is not a standard. You know, our streams are um, they're not perennial. In some cases, even the Rio Grand

goes dry and stretches. So New Mexico has a little bit of a different tradition of what is considered a public stream that you might have in a riparian um state. We're a prior appropriation state, which means that the beneficial use of water, which includes fishing, is something that that is held by the public, and so in our state

constitution that's protected. And I think what has changed is that we've had folks moved to New Mexico who were used to loss in other places, used to traditions in other places, used to ripe area law, and there has been an effort which a previous governor supported UH to use the law to sort of supersede the constitution and change the standard for what is a public stream that you can fish in and weigh in, Senator, do you mind explain to people what you mean when you say navigable,

like how it works in some states around around whether it's navigable or not. So in many states, the standard by which UH you can access a stream or not access the stream. In many states, that's based on whether the stream is navigable. Um, Because New Mexico has a different history and a different geography, that has never been a legal standard in our state. It's not some it's

not a word that comes up in the constitution. It's actually not the standard that the Supreme Court when they ruled on whether or not people had this right to be able to wait and fishing our streams. Never has the word navigable come up until the last few years in trying to sort of set a new standard in

a in a new way of doing things. You know, we have a standard in our constitution and we have a Supreme Court ruling in our state that says New Mexico streams and waters have always been public and uh that includes accessibility specifically for fishing, even if private lands a butt those streams on either side. So say someone you mentioned people moving to New Mexico and not having a perhaps a deep reverence for the way things have been managed in New Mexico for perhaps hundreds of years.

What would they look at if they move in on a stream and they own both sides of the stream and they see people waiting around fishing and they want to put an end to that. How do you like what is the argument you come out and make, like clearly you just want to have it be that it's that it's for you and not for other people. But you can't frame it that way, right, You have to probably try to frame it around some kind of logic. Yeah.

And and typically what you will hear from some of the people who are trying to um, you know, string barbed wire across streams that have have never been off limits to the public is that you know, there are people who will abuse that resource. And I think that's um, you know, it's an issue that that appeals to all

of us. I mean, if somebody is gonna litter, if somebody is is going to be behaving in a way that's not respectful of the fishing resource or of the stream itself, you can regulate all those things, and you can throw the book at somebody who uh doesn't respect the legal principle that the land, the private end on the sides of those streams uh is private land and

you can't trespass on it. So there are a whole bunch of ways to get at the primary argument, which is if you let people do this, there are gonna be beer cans in the streams, and there's gonna be you know, those fishermen there, they don't respect UM anything, and we're gonna have a mess on our hands. So I think even if you buy that argument, the way

to fix that is to set really strict rules. And you know, in my experience, anybody who can read a fishing proclamation is usually pretty good at following the rules. And uh and I think that's the appropriate way to resolve some of these conflicts and still respect the proper property right that every New Mexican has to those streams. Have you guys in New Mexico have you seen a gradual reduction and how many streams the public is able to access? Like have have people who are opposed to

open stream access? Have they made progress? Yes? Just in the last decade, Uh, we saw a governor who did not agree with the Supreme Court ruling and the history UM signed a law that allowed people to apply to game and fish to certify that their streams are non navigable. And the problem with that is navigable is not the

standard that our constitution uses. It's not the standard that are Supreme Court used when they ruled on this issue all the way back in n so we're now trying there is a there's a court case to overturn um that to overturn that new law, because you can't overturn the Constitution with the new law. And we have seen people stringing barbed wire across streams that people used to float, that people used to wait, that people fished in for you know, hundreds of years, and uh, that's that's something

that has a real cultural resonance in our state. So you you you have or the state of New Mexico rather has a pending list of requests coming in from landowners to close off like like, how many are we talking about? Uh, it's a handful. But if they continue to approve these, it's going to be, in my view, death by a thousand cuts because it will happen over

and over and over again. We've seen a previous Game Commission approved some Uh you know, I wrote to the current Game Commission and said, you don't get to make a ruling that's in conflict with the Constitution, So hold off and see what the Supreme Court says on this. So that that's your request, is you stop is while it's pending and while it's being litigated, to stop acting

on a ruling that could be unconstitutional and stop granting closures. Yeah, and I think they have the full authority uh to be clear to deny these applications outright. Um, given that we have a number of Attorney generals opinions UM that says that the Constitution does not allow excluding the public from public water, even if it's running through private property.

In a case like this, where the Game Commission receives the inquiry or the you know, the request is it, can you comment on or is it safe to say like what their attitude about it is? Are they just trying to be compliant? Or does the or does the state Game Commission have they do they have a stated opinion about this. So the current Game Commission has not acted on this. UM. It's a different commission makeup than

when that law was passed. UM. And so this will this will potentially set the dive for their their position on this going forward. UM. And And so we don't know for sure what the Game Commission is going to do when what do you feel is going to happen in New Mexico when the when the Supreme Court weighs

in on it, Do you have a prediction? I feel cautiously optimistic about the Supreme Court because the facts that the law haven't changed, and there are so many Um, there are so many facts that sort of stack up against the admissibility of the current law. Um. We have three different Attorney generals over the years just flat out saying that this is the standard. You can't exclude people from public water. Um. You have the underlying language in

the New Mexico Constitution, and then you have case law. Um. So, in nineteen seven, the New Mexico Supreme Court ruled in a case called the State versus Red River Valley Company that expressly rejected the idea that public water could be rendered inaccessible because it's surrounded by private land. I got a question for you that you've got to give people a little physics or not physics. What do they call it when you study government in high school. Civics not physics, Man,

I'd be lost. I prefer I prefer uh. Senator Heinrich was trained as an engineer, so I can understand that. But yeah, we're gonna do We're gonna do civics. How Okay, you as a as a U. S. Senator, you're elected by the people of New Mexico. Correct me if I'm wrong here. You're you're elected by the people in New Mexico to represent their interests and at a federal level in Washington, d C. Is it normal and is it considered? Um?

Is it kind of like okay and normal for you to then come around and kind of communicate to state agencies at a state level? Are you like carpet bagging or how does that work? No, I'm simply standing up for my constituents and for the rights and privileges and

property privileges that they've always had. And UM, you know, I think there's a long history of you know, Senator you Doll, who just retired, was also uh was an advocate for these same rights, both when he was attorney general at the state level and then once he became a sitting senator. In fact, that two of us wrote an amaricust brief to the New Mexico Supreme Court case

that's in front of the work right now. And you know, I think if people don't step up and protect the historic rights of of the hunting and fishing community, uh and in this case fishing traditional waiting, we will lose we will lose that resource and we'll never get it back. Do you mind helping people who don't live in New Mexico understand a little bit about why this subject is

real for them? And I think you're you know, you're qualified to do that because the position you hold, you're aware of, you know, you're made aware of how these issues have ramifications across the whole country, And no doubt you have colleagues who deal with similar problems. So I can kind of sketch out how people might look at what's happening here and then better understand risks to their

own hunting and fishing rights where they live. Yeah. I think in particular, we have seen all across the country a lot of streams where there is a a clear easement of some sort a property right that belongs either to individuals or in many cases to the public. Whether that's UM and it's true on streams, it's often true on beaches UM where people have said I don't want to recognize that property right, and I'm going to chase you off this because I have property next door, and

that that private property right conveys both ways. You get to you get to make decisions about your property, but you can't take away along established private property right from somebody else. And you know, we've seen too many episodes of people getting you know, chased off of gravel bars and beaches on streams, um that are clearly according to the law. And you know you're someone who, having read your books, I know how you access your bison hunt

in Alaska. That is a property right to be able to use the stream to get to where you need to go. And uh, there are more and more efforts now to either change that outright or make it so hard and so unpleasant to use that, um, you know, to use that stream resource for travel that people will just quit doing it. And I think that's a very dangerous uh, for lack of a better term, slippery slope. Alright, Senator Heinrich, thank you very much for joining us, Thanks

for explaining this issue. UM, hope you have a lot of good luck on it. Was any last final thoughts you want to add in and you have time, go ahead, UM, if not, look forward to having you in our studio sometime soon. No, it's always an honor to to join your listeners. And uh, I'm I'm really just grateful for what you all have done, um to to really create a picture of the sporting community. UM that is complex

and nuanced and really food focused. And I'm really grateful for that because it it helps me explain why I'm so passionate about hunting and fishing. Uh too constituents and friends who who aren't part of that community. Oh well, thank you very much and uh best luck to you. Enjoy the weather there in Washington, d C. And we will talk to you soon. Thanks again. We're gonna make

all that Calan boy very similar. Right Like, it's uh an issue that I think we'll keep popping up amongst the changing landscape of the West, right like recreation versus private property rights when it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. UM. In regards to New Mexico specifically, if you would like to weigh in on this issue, I have leave. The best place to go is the New Mexico Fishing Game Commission. Very easy to access information. You'll be able to email I believe the Commission as an

entity and then individual commissioners. You can also track down letters that you can sign on to at New Mexico um Wildlife Federation, New Mexico Wildlife Federation and New Mexico back Country Hunters and anglers. Uh, and then you whitewater, folks, American whitewater. I believe UM is involved in in this one as well. Thank you. Cal call to action cal call that. I'm trying to think of better rhyme. I work on a call. Gotta have it called action call.

Let's call it a cal to action cald action. Slow around. Phil just sits there. Sometimes you just wonder if he's like, you know, but he's just stewing away, man. He's coming up with the singers. He's not wasted a bunch of time talking about stupid ship. He's just waiting to get into with something good. God the hell the action you think about that? Last night laying in bedding right now just came to me. I don't know what to say.

You can't contain it. Goodness. Boondocs Saints they have an analogy on seven eleven says we're not always doing business, but we're always open. That's that's Phil right there, man. That was really really deeply impressive. When I was growing up, UM, I lived in a lake and like the you know, Michigan walk around the lake, right, you just walk along the shoreline, and uh, you don't go to people's yards.

He just walk along the beach. And the thinking had always been when you put a when you put your dock out, Okay, you're like putting a dock out out over public property, right, so you could put it everybody put a dock out. But you could go along the beach and go out and cast off everybody's dock. Virtually everyone is on board with this. Virtually everyone's on board

with this. But the certain people around the lake. When you were a kid, you knew that when you went out on their dock, um, someone's gonna come l at you that. Yeah, I don't. I don't know how I feel about that. Like if I had a dock, don't put your dock out in my water. And then but then all of a sudden, what happens if you know, if little Tommy comes on the dock and breaks his leg. Come on, I hate to go there, but that's the world we're in. I'm just telling you this. There were

certain people Mudgeons. I guess the worst offender died off. They all do. The worst offender died off. I don't even you know it was. I don't know how long ago. Missus you know what she like? It was her decision. Mrs Angelo was and we were Italians too, so like she didn't even give us like the old Italian to Italian deal, very un Italian, her, very un Italian, and not let another Italian, you know what kind of we stick together with the old world people. So miss Angelo

somehow got away with it. My entire childhood, no one went and challenged her. She was NAT's. She would not let you on her dock. She wouldn't let she wouldn't. You could like go along her beach, but she didn't even like you to loiter for a minute. Totally illegal, but no one challenged her. Okay, so legally you were allowed. You're allowed to walk along the beach. A lot of you can't. You can't. You putting a platform out over the water doesn't mean you own. It's like you're borrowing

the space. But no one would stick up to Miss Angelo. Yeah I wouldn't. There's a lot of other docks. Ecuse me, Yeah, I guess I was. Yeah, she was like, yeah, I was. You know, thirty docks. It's going to different docks. Miss Angelo's dock the best doc or well, let me tell you,

she was right on the channel. So she was like there's a channel that connected are like middle Light with Westlake, and so it was an interesting little area and that channel was a big lily pad thing and blue gills had come up there because the water warm up in there. So yeah, you wanted to be around there. Oh, plus not being able to go there makes it an even better spot, especially as a kid, like, yeah, what she hiding?

Yeah she had a flat roof. I feel like I feel like my whole man once said that there was a bunch of water on there and he saw a duck land up there. I don't know, I feel like that sticks in my head, you know how you know, bass anglers like to like pull bass out of the shadows of people's personal docks and they get they get real intimate with Yeah. I still on a fishing group

yesterday it was like fishing open water fishing Minnesota. Somebody posted a picture of a dock that they were rolling up on to pull bass out of the shadows from and a motion activated sprinkler turned on. That's that's like an evolution that I don't know if we ever said that.

Um in Lake Washington, which is that you know Big Gass Lake in Seattle, there's an apartment buildings built like on piers, and you can fish the shadows of apartment buildings and you're basically like looking into people's bathrooms and stuff out of your boat, you know. But still then no like no one would come out in hollow, right, and what are you pulling out of there? You'd find bluegills and small mouth in there in the shadows, and

the blue goos weirdly would come up. Even if it's ten twelve ft of water, they'd come up and lay. They will know shading, but weirdly they'd come up to the surface to lay in the shade. You look and they just be everywhere. You think it's because just the water, which is a little warmer. You liked about it, Yeah, I don't know what like you catch him out of there though, Brad, yes, sir um with that taking care of I gotta cover off. I'm gonna talk about some stuff.

But I would I would appreciate it if you would begin serving your blue fin tuna. I was. I thought you'd never asked. I got it sliced up. We've got some blue fin. I got a little bit of show you with some friends that I make out in coastal Connecticut. Yeah, so I tell people what show you is. Yeah. So it's just a Japanese name for soy sauce, which is kind of if you want, if you want to be pretentious, you say show you. Well, I mean no, I mean if it's if it's a Japanese style, I guess right.

So I don't think all soy sauces are. And that's kind of a blanket. You can say it without being pretentious because this is your this is your world, sure, and it's just it's a respect thing too, you know, and like my and the folks that I make it. Wait, we were highly influenced by a Japanese cuisine, so I think it was just it's a nice thing too. And it was a major conversation we had, do we call it so he sauce or show you on the bottle?

And then I know, given that most of the you know, the people that are going to be buying this are from America, it was like, you know, I and we all voted, let's keep it showing now the horrible thing I said, Well, no, no, I said about the pretentious. No, it was perfect And anyway, we're gonna drizzle that and

this is something we make. It's it's aged. It's like a it's just a year old process and it's just kogi soybeans water and it ferments back the little fermentation and this is just a nice little umami liquid that comes off it. And you got a bag of rice. Yeah, people brought that for us, a little sabi. I brought the I brought the tuna and a little show you. I'll just do a little drizzle and then, um, anyone who wants it, yeah, go that direction. So I'm gonna

talk about something. Yeah, and listen. If it's not fishy, it's as fresh as it gets. It was frozen with the skin on it, and when we defrosted it, the skin had a little bit of a fishiness. In case anyone was wondering. Listen, I'm very excited. This is gonna taste better knowing that, Um, a body of yours named Vinnie from New Jersey, Connecticut, Connecticut would be different if it was a guy named Steve, like that would meanless.

It's so like it's just stupid. Yeah, NI makes it even better, like a guy named Stevens, Like I like my interest meter. I just turned it down. What's the guy named Steve gonna bring Vinnie might be today maybe the first time we've uttered the name Vinnie on this show. This is the inaugural appearance of a man named Vinny. Well,

we'll see how this tune it goes. And maybe if you know, if you guys can fight me out here, next time, I'll bring all Vincenzo and Well we'll talk to Speaking of names, guy rode in his last names Fisher. So his name this feller's name is Austin Fisher, and he and his wife are expecting a child in December. The first child. He wants the name. He doesn't care if it's a boy or a girl. He wants the name it Hunter. Yeah. I love it, thinking that what better name than Hunter Fisher. His wife is not too

hip to it. She's not, she's not completely write it off, but she said, after some serious discussion, his wife said that if janis or Steve says Hunter Fisher is a good name on the podcast, we can name our child Hunter. Hm. That a lot of pressure do that, A lot of pressure on you. Now. I generally generally would advise against naming him Hunter, because I think you can backfire popular name these days. But I think you can backfire. A lot of hunters name their kid hunter thinking they're gonna

be a hunter. Kid's gonna get made fun of. I named my kid James. He's a big time hunter. If I had named him Hunter, maybe he'd have been like, I don't know, it's just so much pressure, too much. Kid doesn't need that. But his name last name is Fisher, Hunter, Fisher. Now I mean, no, you can't do it. I can't do it. Yeah you can legally. I think you go by your last name. Hey, So I had a dog named Fisher and I called her the big Fish. And if somebody just goes around and says, hey, fish, come

over here, like that's a catchy name. That's a good name. So I would say, go with whatever first name you want, and the kid's going to go buy fish. I'm gonna bring this back to a conversation I had with my wife and we were trying to name. It is very good. Thanks Vinnie and Brad. That is amazing. This this is freaking I'm gonna have a second. We were contemplating calling our second son Porter, which is the name I like,

but my guy that carries things. Yeah, sure, but my our last name is Taylor and that sounds like exactly. I don't like the last syllable matching with you know, Porter Taylor, Hunter Fisher. That's that's where I draw some some beef too. I'm saying, no, Spencer, uh, I don't love it. M Chester, whatever floats their boat. I guess it's the one thing, you know, like if you have a kid, you know, you get to name it. You know,

it's like that's like you got that. You know, you earned that one, So go ahead and name it whatever you want, but think about the child, you know, like and I bring that up. This has nothing to do with that kind of naming. But I have two kids and my wife, she our first son, she had this idea, my last name is Leoni and she had this, like family name this guy. One great great uncle's name was Caesar,

you know, like his French guy or something. And she was like, why don't we name our kids Caesar Leoni? And I'm like, are you out of your mind? Caesar Leone and we're from New Jersey. Just shut that right down, you know, is he gonna make black and white? But nothing good? But but here can I point out a hypocrisy? And you, Brad go right ahead you yesterday. Guy doesn't

miss anything you yesterday. We're telling me something that that us that a food biologist or something told you Rosemary Trout shout out the you said you pointed out that you especially believed her because her name was Rosemary Trout. Yeah, it's good one, Steve. You're right, so I'm glad her parents did. But You're like, how could you argue with someone named Rosemary Trout so now about a food issue? And I'm like, sure, man, I'm not going to argue

a woman named Rosemary Trout about food. And I named my daughter Rosemary. So Hunter Fisher, should he become so inclined, he better be good at it. Steve, You're like, if if I'm talking to a guy and I'm like, I'm at a wedding, you know, and your board out of your mind. You always find the person likes to hunt and talk to them so and they're like, oh, you know that you used to talk to that guy he likes to hunt fish. And I go over to bay what your name heard like hunting fish? Is that my

name is Hunter Fisher. Dude. I'm in, I'm in. I'm open to what they have to say. I think it's a great idea. It's great bar talk, you know, and like, if you're gonna name your kid hunter Fisher, you got a lot riding on that. You got a lot riding. They better be into it, you know, if he's what if he's a rockhound, or what if he turns out to be a librarian, Hunter Fisher the librarian. I guess it works. Maybe the compromise here is middle name Hunter

m Bob Hunter Fisher, Joe Hunter Fisher, ecologist, Hunter Fisher. Doctor. Don't he thinks he's Joe Hunter Fisher, Like, no, he is Joe Hunter Fisher's his name? He doesn't think he's Joe Hunter Fisher. If your name's Hunter Fisher or Rosemary Trout, you gotta go. You gotta go, doctor, You gotta go straight, go all the way go. First name as a doctor, first name as doctor. Did we talk about this on

this show? This reminds me of of there's a there's a doctor who performs circumcisions and his last name, his first name is Richard is Dick and his last name is chopped her Dick chop. Oh that was late night man. It really cut back on naming people. Dick. Yeah, they all went Rick. They all went Rick. Richard's all just

bailed on it and became Rick. And when I when I went in to watch my boys get circumcised, and it's like now a lot of people are often to not do that, you know, like a body of mind didn't do it with his kid, and he's like, oh, man, like the first thing that happens him when he's born, first he happens, he gets like it was like well to welcome to the earth. You know, it's intense. Um. But as we did it, because people do it and we're just like very uh you know, pure pressure. Yeah,

so you know. And then I've also heard people uh do it and not do it because they were like afraid that they wanted their genitalia to look like their kids because they thought it had caused confusion for their kids. That's where my brain went. Really, I was like, yeah, I just want the boys looking different than that. You know, it's very selfish. I felt bad, like when afterwards, I was like, oh my god, I'm guessing there's other significant

differences when they're a little boy. But I hope so Steve. So I went in to watch it happened. I went in with the person, which I think it's common to go in and uh and I and she was, you know, doing it cutting it off, and I said something to the effect of wow, you know, and the person doing it says, oh, it's brutal. Yeah, while doing it. Um, there's something interesting for you, Spencer. My interest meters already way up. We I could talk for Oddly. I was

very into talking about me. They're they're back here. We can plug it in. Next time I haven't plugged in, I'll do it. Do you feel that that falls under your responsibilities? Oh? Yeah, absolutely, because I thought maybe you were like dude last day, I needed another thing rolled in under my uh under or my like bailiwick. Well, I've told Karin I thought the interest me listen. Craftsmanship incredible thanks to the guy who made him. I think it's a terrible idea. I didn't know. Man right out

in the public. He says that, yeah, where's the other half of that sandwich? Yes? Oh yeah, can you ground it off and make it a compment sandwich? Great shoes? Oh no, No to the guy, you said, beautiful craftsmanship, Oh horrible idea. Well it was your idea, So here's one for you. Spencer, you'll like, um about your new tattoo, Brad, do you look like a tattooed fella? No? I have one. It's the worst. It's on my ankle. Hold on, I

gotta step away from the microphone. It's on my ankle and it's my initials in a license plate kind of thing. But but the it's not my initials. We got it from this guy, Joe Budds, when we were like fifteen, and there was like your friends have great names, Joe Budds criminal and yeah, Joe Joe Budds. I don't know. I probably shouldn't say his name. Is that killed me?

But Joe Budds we were like fifteen. You know, he tattooed a bunch of kids, you know, and uh, you might right to Joe Budd's house, you know, in no fucking around you guys, Carson here, I'm sorry people should complain about it. Yeah, sorry, guys. I do appreciate a good family show. Well you know what that's like a lot of people like when it just happens on then and people get upsetting, like oh you know what about the kids? Kids? But like I just feel like, um,

I got a bad mouth. I just feel like that. It's just they're gonna find out. They're gonna find out that there's naughty words. They're gonna be watching, uh, you know, like a Mel Gibson movie. Eventually they're gonna leave Mel out of this whatever. Poor now you know they're gonnay're gonna be whatever. You know, they're gonna be watching an adventure movie and it's gonna already word in it, and now they're then gonna turn off the adventure movie. I'm

kind of with you. They're gonna be watching adventures. I was watching Adventures and Babysuit with my kids. There's the F word. No kids, no kid, No. I'm not gonna be like, okay, kids will never find out what happens to these protagonists. I'm shutting her down after this episode, and somebody's like, how dare you cuss in front of a child? You can be like, may I remind you that I contracted someone to brutally remove their force? Can yeah? Tell how much I care about them, Steve. I'm not

anti Curson, I guess. And in this platform that you have from and as a guest, you know, I know it's it's the outdoors we're talking about fishing, a lot of really cool and important stuff. I want to keep it classy personally. I think you should. Yeah, I think you should. I'm saying now, And then it happens, people get upset. My advice to them is just like water under the fridge. It's this, it's this. There's a lot that goes in this is my personal viewpoint. There's a

lot that goes into parenting. There's a lot that goes into parenting. We want to make our kids compassionate, resilient, tough, um to have empathy. I think that you can achieve all those things, whether they know about dirty words or not. I don't think that them finding out about a naughty word is going to derail the whole plan. I don't. And three of them, and Tony and Susie at school, they're already hearing it. You know, it's just not gonna be what makes They're not gonna wind up in jail.

The internet, forget it. We ain't the problem. Okay, go ahead, worry about something again. But my tattoo, yeah, so it's it's it's b L on my ankle. It's the only one I have. But it stands for that's right now, but it doesn't stand for Bradley does. But like, there's like ten other kids that I went to school that

grew up with. And we grew up in a neighborhood, a lake community called Barry Lakes, and we all thought it was like this, like yeah, you know, no one really messes, but you know, it was like our little gang. But no one mess with a Verry late guy. Did no one mess with it. We were the mountain kids, you know, so like Vernon, New Jersey's right, the Appalachian Trail kind of runs through and that's where I grew up. And there was valley kids and then there was a

mountain kids. The mountain kids, I mean, I don't mount kids. That's where it was at your tires. You know that a lot of the valley kids were kind of criminals. But but but we were like we did all like the hunt, and I don't know, it was just very like tribal, very like you know, I feel like that's what that stands. And you didn't think that it might not be a good idea because that's your initials, not not really more like like, oh, idiot's got my initials

on your ankles. And that was like the first kid thing that I thought of, But yeah, that went away and it was more like, oh god, you have to tell everyone now that like, oh, would you forget your name? Brad? Like you know, it's like people say all the time and just kind of explaining that. But it could it could be worse. You know. You know what, I can't stop watching It's alive. Uh, I'm watching an Italian You have to read the whole damn thing. But go Mora

years ago. Gomera was a movie about the Neapolitan crime syndicate you know in Italy not believe brutal, so then they now do it. They did a series Gomera. I usually avoid serious because I don't like getting that it takes too much time. Oh I love it. Man. You get ready to move on, but you can't. You want to go on to the living your life, but you can't because you gotta watch five thousand episodes of something. Do you fly a lot? What do you do on on the plane? I mean, I just can't quit though.

But it's it's called Gomera anyways. In it, there's a crime boss and he gets a new messenger. He's in hiding and he has a new messenger and she in a garbage removal business during a lot mostly narcotics, but they do a variety of things. He has a messenger and she has a tattoo of a lioness on her arm, and he asked her why do you have that tattoo and she said, well, I got it my father died. You have to read all this because an Italian. So I got it when my father died. That's what he

called me. Leoni. Well, he says to her, he says, if you were a real lioness, you wouldn't need that tattoo. And she burned it off with a hot spoon and then said, who's the lioness now? So just pointing that out, she'd kill you. Need a pizza and feel fine about it. Pointed out you could get a propane torch and a hot and a spoon that thing off right on this show. That's what a real Berry late kid would do. Get to get the boys in here so they can watch day Oh my god. The reason I bring this up.

Spencer got that brand new tattoo um on his arm. The next deployment is in August. To get it off. Get a second one another tree. Well, what is it there? Bud it's a it's a state tree or something like that. Oh, this this one is a Black Hills spruce grows in the Black Hills, found in South Dakota and Wyoming. He's all proud of me from South Dakota, very proud of it. Check this out, Spencer. So these archaeologists been looking at these sharp up in turkey leg bones that they discovered.

Are you hip to this they found in Tennessee? Tell us, tell us about it, sharpened leg bone. Spencer will tell you the needles date back to five thousand, five hundred years ago to three thousand, six hundred years ago. The age tools were used by Native Americans, and it brings back um when they thought tattooing first occurred. And you haven't established that they were used for tattooing. Go ahead, you got this. No, I'm gonna hand it back over

to you. They unearthed these mysterious sharpened turkey bones. They have come to determine that they believe they were used as tattooing tools. Take it away, Spencer, interest meters way up, Spencer, A little get Phil won't get them out. That was good. That was a good insert, Steve. Now they they think that tattooing is a thousand years older than what they previously thought. Hmm. Here in the US in North America. Remember that ice man from the the Italian Alps. Oh

I thought, no Ozzy remember him? Oh yeah, they found him. Yeah, he had boot he was frozen, he was thawing out of a thawing out of a glacier, and he had like his boots are made of three different leathers, right, very like detailed. He was heavily tattooed seven thousand years old in Italy. Now do you think they used alien or you know, bird bones because they're hollow, right, and they would pipe a little ink down there and just

little dots. Yeah. Because the other thing that they found were I think some shells that had some like ochre residue in there, so that that was like your your pigment, your die red ochre is was like a very major kind of like trade item. You still find it around because what is It's oxide? Yeah, to naturally occur ring pigment um, but pretty much limited to reds and blues, reds and yellows, reds and yellows like orange, orange, red, yellow. Uh. Yeah,

it's like a pigment it's funny. My kids found some one time turkey hunting and they didn't know about it, but they did with it what you're supposed to do. I come up and all their faces are yellow, and they found it, and like independently arrived at the idea that you would like paint your skin with it. Yeah, I still got the hunk they found. It's kind of cool. Yeah. And then another thing you do is you can pulverize it and mix it with water and use it as

a paint. And these turkey bones look sharp as hell, like you would earn that tattoo you oh like that on the show and have me tattoo you with a turkey bone? Who your tattoo needles? This shows can take a very jackass and you gonna take on jackassy and elements. When he burns his off and he gets a new one, maybe that's a new video. Serious. Let me tell you what if you guys all of a sudden broke out like this weird wooden box that filled with turkey bone

needles and some native pigments. I would get one right now with you. I would do it, Steve um So the bones are pigment stained. They two Turkey wing bones from the grave also bear microscopic wear and pigment residues, but lack sharpened tips, while pigment stained seashells are thought to have held inky solutions. So the whole kit a

shell to put it in, a mechanism to deliver it. Now, do you think there was like everyone did their own or was there like the tat artist back in the day who had his little leather satchel full of stuff and like you know, you called Tony the tat guy, or I guess he went and he was just I don't know, you know, they probably did it to themselves or like just a little small inner tribal the neighborhood.

And then another question, since you guys researching this a little bit, I wonder how much like infection I guess, I don't know how you would know this, but like how much infection was prone when they were just like, oh, this is this stuff's green, Let's put it in a bird bone and start jabbing myself with it, like it seems like a good way to get an infection. And they're more rugged, and you know they're infected and well, and there's probably they were probably more dialed in right,

they probably had. I'm just assuming like they knew there was a type of leaf that they could put over that like stopped infections. I mean, I'm romanticizing it. I'd like to believe. I think getting this tattoo was like a seven out of ten on the pain scale, but this turkey bone now looks like a ten out of ten. Where are you getting your next one? I'm gonna fill

up my arm. I'm gonna do a whole sleeve. Really really do your neck neck, no neck, your face, no, just your arm, just this one arm because your little goals. I don't know it's a goal. Do you have a budget in mind? I used to I used to use your wife's supportive Yeah. Yeah, he wants you to look tougher. Nobody will mess with me. Then I used to, uh, like the idea of getting a tattoo, but I could never like commit to something. And now recently the pendulum

has swung so far the other way. There, like any idea I have, like, oh I'm gonna get that tattooed, I'm gonna get that thing tattoo, you get rocks tattooed on your arm? I thought about a fair birned egg it which like has some real, like pretty distinct lines that you can actually tattoo. But like the stuff that I collect, there's there's nothing there that would make for a good one dimensional or two dimensional piece of art.

If you if you, let's say you found that the COVID had been worse and it killed everybody, but you, okay, you're the only human on earth. Would you get a tattoo? Great question, I wouldn't make this podcast. Yeah right, Um, I don't know. You'd have to do it yourself, right, sure. But let's say there's one no, there's one other guy the tattoo artists, but you can't hang out with him. You can go in there and get up, but then that's that you can't talk to him ever again. Would

you get a tattoo? Yeah? I think it's still status. You don't get a tattoo. No one could see it. Yeah, that's fine, that's what he's trying to gauge, right, Yeah, just you with you? How deep does that desire? Yeah? I like it. Maybe it's just you're not just do it because you want people to see it. I also like, i'll see here, I'll just look at it sometimes, So I like that part of it. It's entertaining to me.

You didn't ask me, but I feel like if there was, if there was no, if I was the only person left, I'd be like tattooing the ship out of myself. I'd be like my like Wilson, like like ball all of a sudden, I'd be like tattooing new friends on my thigh. And especially, would you ever get that b L tattoo on you? You ain't in the gang anyway, He's so your your arm is almost sleeved, but the designs you've chosen have left a gap of a certain size, right,

so it's not filled in at that point? Could we do like a meat eater office type fun thing where everybody puts in a legit drawing like into a bowl. Right, that fits those dimensions, and then you just randomly pick a designer. That would be fun fun. Do we get out of that? I feel like the better move is like having Steve get a tattoo. I'm very close to want a tattoo. Really. My wife's like, you missed that boat, don't. She's like, it's just too late. This this could be

a money raising situation. If something I want to get a map of the country with a Turkey footprint everywhere. I've gotten my my Royal Slam. This next winner, I'm gonna go get oscillated or try and then I'll be a world Slam holder, and then I'm gonna have tattooed Central America on there as stupidest idea, she's on tattooed, she's not tattooed. That sounds like a really cool poster in the office. Or so it's the tattoo idea you have a problem with, not the act of him getting

a tattoo. No, for me, I guess I can't help it be selfish about it. Like I just always felt like, man, like six months, I'm gonna not gonna want to look at this anymore, or like it's gonna piss me off, or like, you know, there was a lot of things I really wanted to tattoo unto myself over the years, and like I'm just really glad I didn't. There was a guy that there was a when I was in college.

There was a professor I remember over hearing him say to somebody, nothing looks better than a new tattoo, and nothing looks worse than the old woman. My wife has I think seven or eight tattoos. She is eight. Yeah. I asked her to rank them recently, and the order goes from her most recent to her oldest. So there's there's some of that. I played for sure. She had one on her on her ass neck, like her lower back.

Her as kind of heard that one before. Brad, you know, you like to eat a lot of stuff, and you're big in to the food world. But I notice you're not yesterday I noticed fishing or two days ago. When you're fishing, you're not sticky. You don't have a stick because someone proposed you. You know, you can eat a salmon fly. I'm not big. You didn't know. You didn't feel like you gotta be the guy who eats crazy stuff. Oh no, shut it right down. And I have no

problem saying, like being comfortable. Why would I eat a salmon fly? Yeah, that's a terrible idea. You know, if we were if we were lost in the in the Montana Mountains and like things were getting real sketchy and Brad's getting real hungry, I'm gorgeous. I'm I'm gonna my stomach would look like those whitefish we cleaned. But but you know, just for fun, just for novelty, so you don't feel compelled. Um, someone would be like, look at this, this thing is so old it's rotten. You'd be like, oh,

you know that's crazy stuff. No, that was never my thing. How did you carve it? Like? What is your thing? How do you? How did you carve your own path? You know, it's been a hell of a ride, Steve.

You know, it's like I didn't get into the food business kind of in this scope, as as far as like other than just like Delhi's or small restaurants growing up and stuff like that until I was about twenty seven or eight, um, when I jumped from me and a carpenter and a union glazer and just and overall just I've had a lot of different jobs, mostly in construction and stuff like that. Until I was twenty seven.

I was living with these dudes out in this farmhouse in northern New Jersey close to to Delaware Water Gap and just absolutely beautiful. But just didn't want to end up. I didn't want to go down that road. You know. I saw a lot of like it was very easy, man, Like another year I would have had a kid, I would have bought some stupid house and like I would

be commuting an hour each way to the driveway. You know, it's a very common story, and it's a fine story, but like this sounds sounds corny or whatever you want to label it. But I always felt like I always felt like I wanted to do something a little bigger, a little more. I always felt like there was something you know, I don't know. I just wasn't gonna do that. And like not to belittle that, because you go to

college and everything. No, I went well, I went for um uh some esters, three semesters um to become a cop, and then I was just like, yeah, this ain't gonna work out. I had a hard time in school, you know, very very interested in things, but just struggled with sitting there and just like the dumb repetition of just like I don't know, I just always bouncing off the walls, always was looking outside, couldn't wait to the bell, wrong kind of thing. Um. But like when I liked something,

you know, got into it. But I just had a trouble with with organized school and just just a whole like schooling factory that this country became where it was just like all right, you're out of high school, Like it's been crazy. You don't even know who you are. You gotta go to college. What do you want to be? What do you want to be for the rest of your life? And it's just like do you know, you know, like whoever? I don't know, so like it just became this,

you know man. Yes, So I got into just doing construction, you know, parents kind of probably being disappointed and you know some pit in their stomach, like a really worried you know, like kind of just hanging out with you know, good kids, but a lot of losers, a drug addicts

and stuff like that. And um, you know, always gardening and always cooking on the side, and then some uh you know, like you know, I dabbled with the best of them, but like never always wanted to do something else, you know, and then always gardening and cooking no matter where I lived, you know, whether it was on some little weird rooftop or when we had that farmhouse. I turned this guy's old dog dog kennel into a beautiful garden, you know, always growing the vegetables and it was exposed

to the hunting and fish. And so I always had that like kind of in me, but then got out of it for a while, living in this farmhouse doing construction, and then took a loan out, uh, and just found an apartment on Craigslist in Brooklyn, what about seven roommates and I was I rented, I had this room. It was seven took out rent apartment, well, and go to

culinary school. So I left that out. So there was a little culinary school program, a little six month program in Manhattan, and so I got an apartment and my girlfriend, who you know, my wife now she was she was living in the city and I had a really cool job and had her own apartment and stuff along. You guys been together about nine years. Life said well, yeah, we haven't had the wedding yet. You know, we're engaged,

we've got kids. I've we've been engaged for how many years A bunch could probably five, but that's okay, you know. Uh yeah, So we went to culinary school, took a loan, now, got at that apartment, and rented a room in this house with a bunch of strangers, you know, very New York, very whatever. And everyone end up being friends and you know, still being friends with a bunch of the folks. But it was like, how long was the culinary school like

seven six months, quick Turn and burn. I'm not gonna name names, but I didn't really learn but the goals they're gonna place you in a restaurant, you know what it was. I mean, like it's like most culinary Like it's just like colleges. It was like you know, TV, Food Network and all these things, and everyone thought they wanted to go be a chef, but like working in a restaurant, man, is nothing like that. I mean, it's

and it's hard work. It's nights and weekends, it's low pay, it's it's you're getting yelled at, are usually in the weeds all night cooking, and it's just it's never really been my way of cooking, even though I really enjoy food. So I took I went to this culinary school to kind of get into the food space and the food world outside of restaurant because it is like such a big I was kind of naive and like I was like, oh, you know, maybe I'll just like work for some company

developing flavors. And I'm like, no, Brad, you need their like food scientists and ship like they do, like you know, people that are doctor like you to come up with like cool ranch. Yeah, I know, you know, but like it that kind of just those risk and ambition, kind of blind ambition made me take those chances, and you know it was it's crazy. I don't know how, and I don't really stop to think on why. But it's

just like I did an internship. You had to and it was at a restaurant or you know, a media place if you could. And for so I just applied to uh, Bone Appetite magazine and I was like, just you know that's how you wand up there, yeah and uh the intern well yeah and again and then over here and then yeah. So I mean they back when they did internship and so it was you know, they had a bunch of people before me and I came in.

I was just like lunatic, you know, who's been roofing houses before this, And like I was just like I was like this is great, Like oh my god, I want to do this. At age were the oldest intern yeah, you know, like borderline, but I didn't care, just like get me. And people were like nineteen you know like intern stuff, you know, or twenty whatever people are going to get out of college, like just the arm rassle

them all and stuff like that. I had, Like I had a crazy hair cut, like shaved the sides and my hair was like down in my back and ship. I looked like a maniac. But it was a blast. And like I liked working, I liked food, and I was curious, you know, I like to They were like you, I was basically a gopher, you know. I did all the shopping and dishes. But it was New York. I got to go around, go to a different markets meat, I'm learning all these different cuisines and you know, and

keyword just learning. And then you know, when my my stint as an intern was up, I never forget this. I heard boss at the time and some other some other Bob and they were like, we need to hire someone for brad Spot. And I'm just like, should we get some like young kid who's just like really fired up, or like someone who's like a little more like seasoned and experienced in like media that we could in writing

and stuff that we could hire. And I was like, guys, hire me and you can pay me whatever, just get me a foot in. And that's what happened. And then I just, uh, you know, I just between my personality and work ethic and you know, at that time, there was no video. I was hired as a test kitchen assistant, which was really just a glorified dishwasher for I think it was like thirty five dollars is what I started

at in New York. So I was working at night at restaurants and stuff, and eventually, like food I started it was test kitchen assistant, and then it became test kitchen manager kind of like running the whole uh you know, like all the sourcing, all the budget, doing recipe development and testing and stuff like that. And it was great, you know, and and then you know, this is about sixty years ago, and then uh, and then there was

no video platform like at all. Really there was a little bit of like overhead, hands and pants twenty seconds. No one's watching anything long, you know, and like all right whatever, and we were always, you know, we being bone appetite. I feel like they were always just trying to do catch up to like what everyone else was already doing, Like what's buzzfeeds doing this formula. It's kind of just ride on that and sure it worked, and eventually they started like we were all about chasing these

Facebook numbers. It was all about Facebook. They had this new platform. I forget what it was, but they were trying to do like this video thing and that's all

we were doing. We were getting like a hundred thousand views on Facebook and it was like man, it was like awesome, like they were gonna fire me and now like we're doing this and uh and then YouTube started to happen, and you know, and they started doing a little bit longer format kind of stuff like they wanted to get in the more like personality driven kind of videos.

And they sent us to a few folks that were working in the test kitchen at the time, to this lady on the Upper West Side who like she was a little older, just like very like from a movie, just like I feel like she was like, uh, she must have been like sixty or something, and like she was like she was like training us to be like news anchors, you know what I mean, like this like

presence and like the way and what were you Dave. Yeah, she was just like very like l a New York Like she was like she was a nut, right, And we got back to that and they did like these mock up videos and I remember the creation. They were training you to be a media personality. Yeah, yeah, exactly, media training. It was just out of curiosity. What was the biggest piece of advice they had? Oh, I don't even remember a word, she said, Yeah, like I have

smiled with her eyes or some ship. I don't know, you know and can tell you. I could you know if I tell you an interesting story, please do Mine's not I met my wife fast. I'm just trying to dovetail. I'm trying to dovetail. I'm joking, trying to dovetail onto it. I met my wife. You work, all right? Not wrong with that? So no, no, But when I sold my first book, I saw my first book to mirror Max and she worked for UM. She used to work for

Bob and Harvey Weinstein. They made news a little bit, Harvey has uh and they bought my first book long before any scandals. He r UM and I went there too, and I went to meet the team there publication Mirrormax, where she worked, and it was the first time. That's how we met. Okay, those are you in a business meeting? Met a business meet and she later said, because people were talking about pitching me for TV segments, A right.

She left the meeting and said to people way too rough around the edge is no way Yep, that's it. And that was kind of me, you know, just like super you know, like raw, not like this is it. It's got one gear and it's Brad and like I'm gonna put it in the brand. That's amazing. That's how you met your wife. So I had that turned into like a date. Oh we knew each other for quite a while. Yeah, and then I went to a different publisher.

I went to random house and I emailed her to ask her if I could ask her out a good move or if it would be like untoward and it worked out happily married for more longer than most. Oh yeah, we've been married a long time. That's amazing man. And uh yeah, So I mean that's kind of like what the media training that's where it was left. It was like I remember the creative director at the time, he was just like I don't know what that is, but like it's not brad, just like that sucks. So they

tell you like be more. I didn't really tell me to have any advice, so that kind of like stopped, and then, um, that's gotta be a is that profession still around? Media training oh god, probably, I'm sure someone's

scamming someone. But I mean that I shouldn't be little that because that's just some goofy news show where they send someone out to do a piece about how there's a hurricane happening somewhere someone's teaching and they got their hands like in that way and they do their gestures and it's very controlled, like because because they know that it's head and shoulder shot, so how can I hand

gesture to keep it in frame right? Right? Stuff like like over to you Dave, like they got like someone taught them all that, oh big time, And like, I'm sure there is a lot of really good things like that. And I'm just kind of a nut. But like what we started the work for me was just like a creative director was like Brad's always in the test kitchen down there's always got some projects. He's for men and stuff.

And they were, you know, and they were like there was this guy Vinnie who I said, we started the show. It I see he's coasting man a lot of my cousin Vinnie. Everything, dude, you sent me all right now to go bring a Vinnie back. He'd be going two weeks's are they still making Vinni's like, is that still like a baby name? Yeah, still making right, Yeah, yeah, Vincent Vincenzo. I call him all types of silly stuff.

But yeah, so they were like just go follow him around with a camera and like that's what I loved. It was just me no sound guy know it was I guess you know, and like I learned about editing and uh and they just you know, they've just filmed it around and we put out this like twenty or fifteen minute video about kombucha and it's at on a hard drive for like a year. They're like this is this is horseship. We can't put this on the internet.

You know, like this guy can't even speak English, it's his only language and he mumbles and you know, you dropped the kombucha on the floor and they were like, yeah, let's give it a shot, and like thank god because it kind of that's how it all started. And it just became like it worked. Not only did it work, it kind of like you know, reformatted how like they

did video. Like all of a sudden, it was just like let people be people and then just became like each very and like for me, I always wanted to make it like listen, guys, I can't. I'm not an actor, Like I can do this. I can just do me and like it turns out that's like really valuable. Were in Memphis to discover the great barbecue world here in Memphis. Yeah, and then they're walking fast forward into the barbecue place. And then I guess like, well, yeah, what becomes like

when you not to like toot my own horn? But if you have like people and I mean all you guys are saying like where you have some skill in a bunch of categories, but then you can also just be like good on camera. Like cam freaks a lot of people out. I'm sure you've seen it. Like the one that sticks out to me the most. We are shooting a video in Hawaii about pok and we went into this one supermarket that all the locals got like that's what was the spot? You know? And the lady

she was amazing off camera. I mean she was, you know, chat and busting jokes. I think she was punching me. And then as soon as that red light turned on, man, she just clammed up. I don't get someone else, Yeah, I don't think when I when I point this out. It's not a comment on anyone because I don't think more of people who can be on camera. I don't think less of people who can't be on camera. Like, I don't view it as a I don't view it as an admirable No, you're a psycho. If you're good

on cameras well, I don't. I don't. I don't view it as an admirable admirable quality. And I don't view not wanting to do it as a negat It's just like to me, it's like it's like whether you like uh, be the same to me, like whether you like bananas, Like I don't give a ship like bananas or not. I'm not gonna hang out you more or less or whatever,

depending if things. I'm banana sure. But I found that, Um, there's people that there the other personality in normal life and you put a camera on them, it goes away, which is not good on camera, or another one shows up, came so there's a different personality shows up and that's no good. I don't think It's like it's the people

that you do it and nothing happened. They didn't A new one didn't show up, The normal one didn't go away, but somehow they just continue right on and like and there I could teach people that, And like for acting, you know, like Daniel day Lewis or whatever his name is, Like, yeah, I'm not doing that kind of stuff, but like for what we're doing, I feel like you really need that like authenticity when it's more like journalism in a sense,

or like documentary style kind of storytelling. You know. One thing I like about I mean what you were talking about kind of set the template or what's been going on with food shows on the internet for a while now, which is not only to not shave off the rough edges, but accentuate them, like what's charming about this person? What's

imperfect about them? I love how like your show or Maddie Matheson, you call attention to the fact when you screw up or you stutter or you pronounced something in like an odd way, and it's it's charming and it's fun to watch. And yeah, it's that human element, right, And then I think that's what's missing in in or has been missing for a long time in food, you know, or and and even like I guess you can even

tie that into like food and hunting and fishing. You know, it was always just like very like stereotyped image and like to be able to just kind of you know, everyone and all types of people are into it. You know, I'm buying it. Yeah? All right? Good? Uh so talk

about it's alive? Like what tell people about the show. Yeah? So, I mean it started with just in the kitchen fermentation, you know, in the test kitchen back when we shot video there and and you know, and it which is you know, the things that I was into, sour kraud, that's where. But what I mean is someone had to one point time, at some point they said, Okay, now you be the person. What do you mean, Like, it's not Vinny, it's you. It was always me there was.

It was always just me talking to the camera. You know what I'm saying. Like when you went out and made the thing about I thought you were saying you with a camera followed Vinny to drink kombucha. No, Vinny followed me, Vinny was the camera? Did you understand that? Because I'm very confused. No, I got that, but I also read did you understand that? Yeah? Yeah, these guys, did you really expect you wanna said that? Everyone? How come one I said, you know how to use a camera? No,

one said, that's not what he said. I didn't hear that because I actually I made a mental note to take that out. Got in that fragile you can't because I didn't need to, because it would be an easier thing to just let like you you finished your sense and then I'm like, I'm cutting this out and then we're going include But were you worried about Hawr I didn't understand the story. No, no, because it was just like a two second mention. Then we moved on, man Chester,

how would you rate? These are the ref edges we're going to keep in this podcast? What you want? Man? If I've cultivated an atmosphere that that that what I love it when people screw up, so I can point it out. Just thrive on that. Chester does that right. What this was is a result of people more interested in the story. So it wasn't going to be conducive. Why did you Yeah, you could have said, like what you just said was really stupid because it like this

stuff will buff out. Okay, yeah, sorry man. In your defense, Steve, I don't know how I'm a video host. I'm very I know I'm not a very good talker. You know that at least should be able to track story. I struggle myself out of tend producing that. Karina. She's over there being like, I'll take that. Also, he doesn't look stupid. You're not going to interrupt bread and need to care and let me tell you, Okay, I thought you were filming Vinnie. So then I was like, well, how did

it get to be the Vinnie's film? And you okay? I see what with the camera and that can also be like you're good with the camera, as in your good in front of you could have left it in and people might have three people would have thought that that maybe three is generous. But I'm really sorry, man, No, I don't be at all. I have zero now that that was the birth. Yeah, and it just kind of

became and they getting started organically. It was great, Like on paper, I should not it shouldn't have worked, you know, like every one of the Bob's was like, no, this is fucking stupid part of my friend kids. I'm sorry, what's What's I get it? What is a bob? Because their name is not Bob. No, that's just what I call the boss hunter. I called the boss is bobs. I think some of my office space or something, right, the bobs. You know, so all the all the all

the Bob's I just called the bobs. Keeps it, keeps them impersonal. I can make fun of him without making fun of him because you're not hurting friends feelings. Yeah, they can't fire me quite, you know. So then all of a sudden, like wow, this guy, this guy of all people. Yeah, so what's great is that it's just kind of for me anyway, and I guess for everyone is that it was just organic and it just kind

of grew its own thing. It was never like a it wasn't developed, you know, like like Conde like whatever they got, like you know, a group of folks that come up with ideas and strategies and what we name it and what, you know, the formulas of shows, and this one was just like all right, well it's it's

it's continuing to grow. Like let's just why try to fix it if it's like it was just happened organic, which was beautiful and like really unfortunate because it allowed me to get into things very untraditional to the magazine in brand, like I am definitely the first person to ever shoot kill clean and cook something for kind and asked like, because that was that was my next question, beat you And yeah, definitely had that. I mean I was the first video talent I think they ever hired.

You know that was awkward. Did you have to go in one day and be like, so listen, oh yeah, this thing well, I mean they know it was Yeah, I mean it was. Yeah. Fishing is like the easy one. Like we went and shot some birds, you know, and like and did that turned into a big old conversation. No, And I was like, listen, guys, let's just take a risk and trust me, like outside of this Manhattan bubble. It's a big thing and we all know someone who

does do it. And you know what, it took a room full of lawyers and I'm sure every some of the bobs were like this is terrible, but like, you know, we ended up they let me do it, and it was almost like it's all about how we package it.

And like the way I said it was like, listen, if this bothers you and you and maybe you shouldn't eat me, you know, but if you do eat me and it bothers you, like that's a problem because like this it doesn't happen any better cleaner, you know, when you go and buy your pork chop with no face in a plastic wrap pat you know, and like, and

that's fine. I'm okay that you do, you know, and like, but like realize, like me doing it and cleaning it and showing the process, if that bothers you that much, then again you shouldn't probably eat me, you know, like why like you gotta be okay with the dirty work, you know. And at the end of the day, you know, and we've got a great response from you know, the vegan and vegetarian uh fans, And it was all about like listen, no one wants, no one except for the

bob's making the money off. And no one wants factory farms. No one wants you know, poorly treated and farmed animals and slaughtered and you go dry by some of them big feed lots. It's disgusting, Like that's not food anymore,

you know. That's just the industrialization of the food chain is where it all kind of started, the crumble, And that's where you know, I honestly don't recall getting any negative Like there was a couple like stupid make people just like trolling, But like nine percent of the stuff that I've done, it's just been super positive. And it's just the packaging, you know, it's just value word it. And we could have feel I want to get a good feed lot person on, yeah, I would interest level up. Yeah,

people like take cracks feed lots. But I mean, but and you know, I get it, but I feel like there's a systems come about in certain ways. Well man, this I've only done. We don't need to start debating feed lost. But I'd like to get a good feedbut person, yeah, and you should because I'm not. I had to have the reference that I gave you out of um yeah, I got I got you covered. Just you know what it's like. Well, I mean, I think it comes down

to us. It's just a matter of me personally. I'm not into you know, cows just being you know they But from what I've been taught is that they are fed a bunch of grain and it's a super unhealthy for him and people don't like the looks of it. And it gets really no, I don't like the looks of it. And then I don't know is the is the cattle super healthy? I don't know. I would love

to learn more about that. Yeah, well yeah, I mean, you know, if you're driving your kids down the road and they see any um anything around, like an industrialized meat production, they don't warm up. Hmm. They're they're assaulted with a real serious smell, which doesn't like set set their minds in a spot where they're I'm super interesting, what's happening out that? And the visual you know, the the optics of it, you know the ones that I've

gone past. I think it was in Nebraska or something when I was little, was it was just like mountains of cow manure, thank you, and just mountains of just miserable looking animals on top of them, just certain waiting in line, and I guess go get just run through the you know the and I get it. You know, people, that's how they feed the world. And you know my parents growing up, were they buying Farmers Market amazing whatever meat? No, man, my mom was buying Tyson buy one, get one free,

you know, manager special. You know that's what you're telling if she didn't have the orange sticker and like its gonna go bad in three days. Yeah. When I was just I was just home visit my mom and she wanted me to grill some chicken one night, and she pulls out just like never ending tray. To her credit, she's into drums. Yeah, those like thirty chickens drumsticks all lined up, you know. But it's just yeah, they're not

coming off of you know, Uncle Bob's farm. That's why there's a shortage right now, the wingstop has like changed their whole marketing around. Now they're serving thighs because like everything else during COVID, there's a shortage of wings in the world. Oh, only two on a bird, right, you know, it's right, it's really that is hilarious, really appreciate it.

In Wisconsin, a good example of the big feed lot cows like kind of a negative look is when I was growing up, there used to be a ton of small, little dairy farms, you know, like two d three hundred acre farms. They got forty head of cows. They got this little dairy barn. They're actually out in the past years that bring them in morning and night to milk. Making your kids get up at two in the morning to milk those cows before they go to the bus stop. Oh yeah, you don't want to be a dairy kid.

They practice good um crop techniques like strip cropping for rose in But now you rarely see a mom and pop dairy farm anymore except a couple of small organic ones. And it's all these huge, massive barns packed full of cattle.

They rarely get outside. They're not practicing good strip cropping techniques, which in that I mean like on all the little rolling hills in Wisconsin, it's good to mix up your crop from like corn to l FLFA back to corn to beans because you get a different roots system in there, yea and soil health. You know what you're saying is is I'm glad you brought that up, man, because it's

a major problem you know, the country. Yeah, And it's it's it's just a little sad to see in that area because it was it's nice to see the mom and pop farms making it. And now you go and you see a two thousand, three thousand, four thousand head of cattle farm and all these old little red white barns are just you know, rotting away. I was at a livestock auction with some cattle ranchers one time, like Kyle Calf Operation guys, and I remember where they were selling.

They were selling animals at the auction. I remember someone was unloading uh load of cows and they expressed like disgust about the cows that were getting offloaded. And these are not like soft men, but they kind of had like the how could you do that? And you know, I when I'm not trained to look at that kind

of stuff that well, like what what? And they're like milked out dairy cows and they were kind of like offended by the condition of these animals coming off and these are these are people who are in animal husbandry, So there's more to it. I think it's easy for people not an animal husbandry, not in farm and ranch to come in and you know, like coming like a

dilettante and condemn this and condemned that. But I mean I was in there with people who have been in production their whole lives, who had a very strong condemnation about animal hustldry practices of people. It's interesting subject. Were these beat up cows coming from a small farmer, big farm, No, they were coming from a big we were close to it was where a lot of milked out dairy cows go from big production places and they go into fast

food burger. That's what they're saying, that that's where all those animals are death. But they were commenting on just how like the broken down this quality of the animals, which to them was indicative of um, indicative of like kind of like the cycling practice, and and it just became you know, and it's like do you need tomatoes every day of the year? Do you need Do I

need this nothing special anymore? Like you asked my six year old, he would say, no, well, fine, strawberries, you know, like whatever you know, of course, you know, but like there's something to be said about like waiting for things to be like happened naturally right right again season, you know, and I think that can that that applies to that too as well, you know, like do you need and like sure, listen to me, I guess right, but like

do you need to have beef? I don't need to have a I don't eat it every day, but like there's something nice to be able, like all right, yeah, it's this is the time of the month when like beefs around here, and like it's or something like that, you know what I mean, Like just that recipe I made last night for the Agua Chile like cucumbers, right, and there's like no good cucumbers around here. Like I don't care where you buy them. I'm not against technic.

I'm not against technology and those things. Those cucumbers were probably grown in a greenhouse in Mexico, and I like, I wanted to make that recipe, so I bought those cucumbers, and all I could think is, like, you know, all this is good. I can't wait to try this again. If the practice makes sense, I can get behind, you know what I mean. Like I saw a tomato farm

outside of Detroit one time. We did a video and it was I'm talking square acreage of indoor tomatoes and they was just all, you know, it's organic and just dialed in and as far as like you know, it's all solar panels, and like sure, I mean, if you're making a good product, and I'm not against technology, it's the only chance we have, you know, But like localizing a little bit and just that whole massive just like the Big Bob's running the you know, big food game,

and just kind of that industrial treating it like it was cars, Like we did everything else in this country, you know, faster, more cheaper, and we just stripped that down, you know, and not everyone's hunting, and you know, isn't gonna isn't gonna solve world hunger, you know, But like I think, just localizing, not like the point if every American killed a deer next year, we'd be two hundred million deer in the whole. Yeah, that's insane. How many What is the deer pie? Of course, but what is

the deer population? It was like a million of them or something, isn't there right, I was saying sixty, But I don't know. He'd be a beggar hole. You never climb out of it. Oh, you know. I was recently

doing an interview for a documentary about um. I was doing an interview for a documentary about Buffalo, not the town, but bison, the animal, And I was kind of like thinking about the extermination, near near annihilation of the herds, and the fashionable number nowadays is there was maybe about thirty two million bison at the time of European contact. And I kind of got to try to find a way to find to uh, to put that in perspective.

This country, we slaughter more cattle every year. Then there were buffalo on the landscape at the time of European contact killed about I think they're killing about thirty nine million a year in this country. Then puts in perspective like people like how could they have you know the US? Uh, the U s population's three million. The US deer population is thirty eight million. Would be three million shorts. Since we're pulling up a little fun facts, look up how

many pigs are slaughtered? Not as many as cows or oh, it's like in the world, it's like a billion in the world, or even in the US. I bet you it is more than than cow hundred thirty million, hogs cheese and uh it looks like gold. Don't give me no global numbers that's in the United States. How many hundred thirty million? Yeah, global will make you throw up.

It doesn't maybe throw up, no, but I mean it's it's a lot of animals, like like you get China in the game and other you know, big big countries that are just cranking them out. I mean, sure, I'm not against people eating it, right, who are we to just eat them like you know everywhere across the world. You know, we're not the worst, you know what I mean? Like, no, we're not the worst. But we're the among the richest, so I think like to come in and be like

I you know, I don't like your people's numbers. I'm talking about practice. I'm sure you know. I think bad practice happens everywhere as sure as hell happens here. But you know that must it happens globally, and we can afford and it's not a bad thing. We can afford to be very finicky about what we eat. And I think it's important to keep in mind a lot of people do not have that luxury. But it doesn't have to be that way. A lot of people don't have

the good. Food is too expensive, and that's our that's our government's fault. I think, you know, the way it's all been systematized. You know, it doesn't I don't think it needs food. Food is expensive and it's only getting more expensive. But like like my mom and like most people's growing up, they could only afford what the big system made available because the bobs are making money, Steve, you know, and like, I think that's the big change.

That Not to get all crazy and you guys, but I think that's how that that's something you're getting crazy. I mean, I think I think it's it's a it's a rich field of inquiry. Yeah, I don't. I don't think we need to um, I don't think we need to sit here and exactly have the same time. No, of course I'm not that committed to my vision. Well that's that's beauty because I don't understand it as thoroughly

as i'd like to listen. And as long as we're all have an open mind, right because as soon as some person this is it, and that's then, you know, that's when we have problems. And that's why I go like, I don't really care what this gusses well our next guest, you know, but have an open conversation. You know, that's what this country, you know, that's what this moment, that's what this country. What makes it great is that we should be able to have conversations that we don't necessarily

agree on. Right, That's how we get That's how we get somewhere. And I could be hypocritical real fast, because I like, I sure like hunting turkeys around feed lots, and like hunting deer and farmers cattle pastures. So yeah, it's like you can get you can get, um so afraid of hypocrisy that to shut you down. But I don't know. I mean, it's you hunting by your feed lot. That's great, man, you get to shoot your turkey, and

there's a lot of them. But what am I the bigger picture, like all the runoff from about the water waste that's coming off of those things. Like at that point, I'm like, fuck your turkey? What do you think of that? Yeah, that's all right, I'm listen. I'm I'm gonna change the subject right now. But not because I'm not because I'm uncomfortable. Good me neither. When someone when you think of an idea, how do you know what fits into your Like? What is how do you know when something's right for you?

Because you're talking about going to a tomato place? What do you mean is something is right? Okay? Like like visiting a tomato place that's interesting to me? No, like catching mountain whitefish that's interesting me? What's not interesting to you?

A hatred and negativity? I mean, like as far as food ideas, nothing, man, I don't mean like I'm not I'm not necessarily traveling to come you know, eat you know, the biggest bug, but like just like normal and I shouldn't normal, but like that's you know, adventures and food and like what you know the people behind food. That's kind of like what really gets me going. Could you see a path sort of doing a thing. I'm not trying to plug his place. Would you be like, oh,

they grow mushrooms and make pickled mushrooms. I gotta do an episode about that. Oh one, I'm not pitching Chester. I would love to go Chester testers coming with me. I just got to get the bobs to sign off and you got to recreate that Chester the tester scene like a flashback. There'll be a black and white flashback of a little kid. Could you play himself? He got a sippy cup in one hand and a mushroom in the other, making a little like so he's got like

Bobby socks on him. It's time. They won't produce it for it's alive. We need to do it for for a meat eater thing, because I would Yeah, that's amazing. I have a question for you about kind of like your own or maybe more like the mainstream industries red lines around preparation of of food that's not you know, it's like pig pig cow aside and kind of our idea about like what is okay to eat and what's

weird and what's gross to eat? You cooked Spencer, you cooked up crow last year and badger as well as that. I unfortunately miss those those days. All about it? Yeah, do you have thoughts about that? And what where do you think we may push the biodiversity. I'm all about it because it's it's funny, you know, it's what we we We like, you know, pigs, you know we can kill two million of them. No, no, no problem, keep

it going right. But like you talk about like cooking a dog or something, and it's just like, cancel that guy, you know, like no one wants nobody wants you eating dogs or house cats, Robbin's Like I kind of want to eat a robin, you know, and like I heard I would. I would try dog too, I guess. And I love dogs, you know, like it's one of my spirit animals. But like it is, it's funny the things we like. This is food and that's not big. No, no, here,

Let's say you went let's say you thought that. Uh, let's say you thought, man, I want to go to I want to do an episode of It's Alive and go hear them out. I'm gonna talk to you a veterinarian. I'm gonna go to a industrial feed lot. Yeah, what would someone tell you not to? I'm sure someone from like the Bobs, I mean maybe. I mean the problem with me is like I could find that. To me,

that's an amazing topic. I there isn't many things I can't get into, whether or not I fundamentally think it's like, let's expose it and kind of like see you know, more of like a journalistic aspect or something I'm obviously into, like going to an efficient right, But within that the fund is also like the education, you know. And sorry, what was a question? Well, I was just trying to figure out, like how all the things in the world, how do you decide what fits you? Like, what's interesting

to you? What you what do you want to make content about? What do you want to shine a light on? The people behind food? For the longest time, it was always just you know, I feel like for the past decade probably even more right, it was always just been the chef. You know, you think about the people, the folks, that's what it's all about. I mean, for me, it's a it's just a universal language like music. You know, food, it's if the food's greatest delicious. I freaking love eating.

But it's just as much as you know, going and catching the fish with you and smoking them at your house and stuff like that, you know what I mean, as it is to just just eat them. It's it's it's gotta be. It's gotta have that human element. And like I can find the creative. The ideas are never the problem. I think there's it's kind of endless. We could probably I could probably come up with ten thousand, you know, if we're going global, it's kind of endless.

It's more just like who's gonna pay for it? What's your favorite episode of It's Live? You know, I hate favorites, you know when in every in every category, you know, like it's like my least favorite's like your ten out of ten. No, but I can answer the question for sure. I mean the one to Alaska was absolutely amazing. Where we went up and I mean he was my first time,

you know, it's my second time up there. But we went we went Rabin and we took a little seaplane and it was just you know, it's Alaska, it's huge, it beautiful, met some you know, just amazing people ate some great food. Um the trip down to when we I went with Guitar Chocolate out of San Francisco. We did a really cool three part video where we went to South America and we just did the whole chocolate production, which is a fermented product ocolate chocolate production. So we

went down with these farmers. So we're the nicest people in the world, just like you know, living in and you know, in the middle of the jungle with you know, in just a very very simple home. Uh, you know, no windows and stuff. You know, just like and just then I mean would give you the shirt off their back and they're they're farming. I've never heard anything like it. We were down in the jungle like collecting these cacao

pods and it got quiet. We were like getting like the MIC's writing and stuff, and all you heard was just like this in like just surrounding the world was just like this, and it was just like billions of mosquitoes everywhere. You know, we had to take malaria pills and stuff. But it was just seeing the whole process

where it was just insane. Pod I don't know if you know what it looks like, but it's just like this cocao fruit pod and it's got these like alien egg seeds inside with this like white mucus that surrounds them, and inside it's just that raw that cocow nib or that you know, the seed, and then they ferment him

in these these big bins. Uh. It's just out in the temperature, covered in banana leaves and it gets so hot you have to go and turn them and like you have to put gloves on because it was burning your hands. Cockroaches coming out of it and stuff, you know, bugs like this. And I'm I'm not a big bug guy, you know, I'm just and I'm stirring this stuff up with my hands, and you know, they didn't give me gloves. They should have, but like there was like an acid reaction.

My hands were like a little pale for the next few days. And it's like it was like a burn from in that like heavy heavy fermentation. And then after they ferment that like sweet goop off it, then we laid them out and sundry they like sun dry them, and that's when you get this like what becomes like when you crack that it's that coco nib and people put in there, you know whatever, and uh and then from there, you know, we followed the bean back into

the co op the moment that's like the tradeable commodity. Yeah, oh yeah, that's where it's all happening down there. And all these farmers bring them to the co op, their bags that dried the cattle beans right where so you know, there's the nice sun dried ones and then uh, and then there's the ones that like they dry in these

like big diesel things and they're like not his quality. Right, So we went with the with the guy who I was doing the good the good work, and we followed them to the co op and it was like all these crazy colorful bags. And then from there they go to we went to the San Francisco factory where they toast them, they grind them up, turn it into you know,

and then it becomes started becoming familiar. See cocoa powder, cocoa butter, and then like little chips and big box start coming out and stuff, and it's just amazing, amazing process and you know, seeing the whole thing and just something that like to come back and kind of answer your question. And just like I loved making videos that like demystifies or like shows like like something like like this soy Sauce or the pickled Ginger, like so many people go in and even Seltzer, you know, you go

into the supermarket get it. But man, there's like usually generations of information sian and hard work and all types of stories just for this. You know, I can be applied to anything. So as long as someone still wants to make videos, and I'm gonna have to make one day start making them on my own or something, but like I'll start, I'll do this for as long as I can. I was in in a remote area the Philippines one time and there's people drying rice. But the only place to put it out the dry it was

on the road. But there's so little traffic they come blankets. Yeah, we'd come come around the corner now and then and they'd be like damn it, yeah, and you have to stop and they'd like very begrudgingly break it all off the road and then you drive through that they'd pissing them off and spread it back out. Man. But yeah, there's like parts of food production this in other places we just take for granted, right, and like the perfect example rice man, I would love to go do that,

and like, you can make fifteen different Rice episodes. It's probably one of the most consumed things in the world. You know. We can go to Asia, we can go to Minnesota and collect the wild rice. Like there's so many Everyone eats rice. Make a show about rice. Uh. A friend of mine that I grew up with, we used to hang out in Mexico a bit together, and

there's this town that had this grilled chicken. We really like, you know, it was already just seemed like very unsanitary because they would use stumps in a machete, cut the chicken up, you know, like no one's washing that stumping. And then they cooked and he goes and we're like, man, that chicken is good, and we've been down there a couple of times. Eventually wants to find out how they make the chicken and knee goes in the back and this guy's got a garbage can full of the like

a marinade and he drinks out of it the marinade. Yeah. Well, so my body thought was just like where he's making the marinade. So he takes a big spoon and has the guys like urging him taste the marinade and oh yeah, well he's drinking the marinade, thinking that's just he's making the marinade, and he says the guy reaches in with a bare arm starts hauling raw chickens out of the

bottom of that garbage marinated marinade. Man, Oh yeah, that was like what was funny is like to see it, you know you're talking about like the cockroach is kind of out of stuff to see it. He was a huge he liked the chicken more than anybody. Yeah, it's like this Upton sinclair, like the jungle stuff. You know, like people to this expression like let's not see all the sausage you just made sure burned him on the chicken. Well that it's better. Sometimes people don't want to know,

well that cook. You know, he probably had an he had a gut like a snapping turtle, you know, like that guy know, he's been doing that his whole life. Yeah, when you think of chocolate, you know, it's like kind of like elegant, you know, people get sophisticated about No you go down like you said, like there's cockroaches and banano lee. Yeah, and guys probably getting paid a hundred dollars a week. You know. Yeah, no, it's interesting to see all that. Man. It's wild, man, the world's wild.

If you want to think, it's like a bunch of French guys in a laboratory. Oh sure, everything said, everything is very romanticized, right, Marketing did hell of a job and and it's true. So like being able to kind of just shine a little light, you know, off of you know, five star chef guy. But then also just let's let's go all the way why not? And like the world needs it, man, because the systems in place ain't ain't really cutting it. How many of its lives

have you made? Oh man, you call him it's lives. I don't really call him anything the truth episodes, but yeah, but it's gotta be like eighty or ninety hundred of them or something, I think. And then we have another show we did I do with with Bone Appetite called Taste Buds, which is a lot of fun. It's just more it's more of just like a kind of an internet show where it's like a me uh, we have celebrities come on and we like try different types of

like a type of food. Right. One we did with uh with just a bunch of different types of smoke fish or like stupid stuff, like different types of potato chips, like high test celebrities, mid level. Now we got we got, we got some big players. Man. We had kimmel on and uh, Elizabeth Olsen and Kicky Palmer. Was a lot of fun. And Elizabeth Olson like the girl with the twin uh so, I think there's there's three of them, a younger sister, the twins. You're not even wrapped up

in the twins. But she's she's like a huge start. Now she's in a ton of movies. He's yeah, Steve, Yeah, she's got And what was that other one mrs uh mrs um the one show she just had that was like a big hit Mrs Marvels. Well she she wasn't Missmasal, but she wasn't in one of vision and she's all the movies now to everything. Yeah, yeah, definitely more famous than me. Part of the m c U. Yes, actually, all right, good job. And then we just did Wolfgang Puck.

He was he was amazing. He had no filter. It was like he just said, I was just like, yep, this is great. Have you had Jack Pepperine? Who ja Popine? No, but I love him, man, you know, makes it more approach. He lives up by me and he's good friends with a buddy of mine who owns a farm stone acres over in Connecticut. Is good man. Yeah, he's a legend. Man,

such a sweetheart. We sat next I sat next to him next with dinner and I was like, me and my wife were there, and I was like, do you sit by Jock because he's you guys are gonna love it. He's just such a little he's a schmoozer, you know, he's a good guy. And when you say schmoozer and like in quotes, no, like, um, schmoozers the wrong word. I guess I mean not really, but like he's saying, your wife over to sit by him. Yeah. He's an old guy, you know. He's a flirty old guy, you know,

and not in a creepy way. Okay, good, good good, you know, very very charming. I'm sorry, Jesus Christ, very charming. No, no, no, man, I hope he don't. All right, we'll tell people how to find you all the platforms, all the ways. Yeah, thanks man. So yeah, so Instagram, it's kind of it's the only really it's the only social thing I do. It's just Brad underscore leone. That's your own thing. Yeah, yeah,

that's me. And then you know, we have it's a live show and going into live and it's a live going Places, which is like the sister of that show where it's just more of the travel stuff. They kind of bleed into the same thing. How long will it be till till uh? What's the turnaround time till the one we made about Whitefish? Oh, you know, they're pretty good about it, you know, like it's either a month or six months, who knows, you know, it's just like and it probably I don't want to be like your

kombucha thing that sits there for a year. Oh no, this is a heavy hit it. Man. We're proud of this one, Steve, you know, and I felt really good about it, so did everyone that was shooting it. And and thanks again for coming on. Man. That was that was just Hey, I've been a fan of your guys is working show for a long time. It was just awesome to work with you guys. And you've got something in the fixings. You got you and Cal got something in the fixings too. We talked all the time, talking

about all types of stuff. He's gonna hopefully come over and help me cut down some trees, some vines I got some. I got these vines grown all over, some cedar trees I need to handle. And then we gotta do some spear fishing out there, and some fishing and a lot of cool stuff out by me. Steve, you got up indoor boys, I got a guy, got a good one for you. You know at the UH you

may have been in the preamble to the show. It may not even be on here, but you said, how um you have a kind of perspective on food as far as like some safety things or what you can or cannot eat. Um, like you equated it to you know, taking the right hand turn on a red light. Even if it says you shouldn't like some things don't apply to you. That um cut up some sushi at my place last night, and the board that we were laying all the sushi on, right, don't dug that out of

the dumpster, little dumpster, the same dumpster. Get all your stuff on the same dumpster. All that stuff out, folks. Folks don't know the people throw away. It might be catching on and people might just go there and put instead of bringing it to good well that it's dumping to Cal's dumpster, Cow's dumpster diving. That sometimes I flipped the lid and it's daunting, Like I shake my head and it's like all I wanted to do was just throw the trash away. I gotta repurpose, so needle out

fix it all. Find a home board. It can film. Make a jingle for Cow's dumpster diving, like what what did calp find? Every time you every time you're finding something, Yeah, it's good to be the Col's dumpster. You're coming on better. Dad. My dad loves to go dumpster dive and he finds all kinds of radio. My dad lives in northern Jersey, so you know those. Yeah. I'm a big picker a right, you know, not so much of the dumpsters, although I'm not above it, but like a good pick a good

like uncuriated egg, antique kind of lot. Oh man, stop buying new stuff unless you need to a lot of good stuff out there. My old man would um, he was into that stuff and had like a big pole barn, so he had somewhere, you know, and he would go

in spring springtime. He'd be like oh, you know spring cleaning time and on garbage day, like honestly, like that time of year, would kind of like make little extra loops, take the long way home, knowing that someone was going to throw away something good and to be out Wednesday night, and he'd get in there. And you know, if I an a broken fishing rod, that put all the broken

fishing rods I found in the garbage absolute gems. Or like if you know there's an old couple and like the old man, you know his time comes, you know, they got him in the dirt, the old lady a couple of months, all that stuff gone right, Yeah, you can find some gems and one last personal plug if you don't mind. I got a really cool personal book that I've been making, um and it's gonna be coming out this November. All the pre sales, pre sales out now.

But yeah, it's called field Notes for Food Adventure and it's uh yeah, shot. It took a year. It was hard, but it was amazing and it was just Bradley field Notes, field Notes for Food Adventure for Food Adventure. Is that pre sale at the publisher's website or yeah, all those Yeah, it's everywhere and and it's Yeah, it's out you know, from New Jersey to Maine, you know, from seaweed foraging and shellfish foraging and recipes that go with it. We

do some fermentation, we do ramping. It's a chapter called Dear Dad where we go you know, making venison sausage and stuff like that, and recipes that go with it. Uh, some good old saltwater fish and maples maple see her production. Yeah, you went there and like shot all kind of like the videos I kind of do, like in a book about it, you know, I can. It's got my family in a little bit and uh, you know that guy that I was fishing with, Vinny, he's in it, you know,

and awesome. Yeah. I just did a lot of cool stuff throughout the Northeast. So if you're into that, check it out. A lot of really cool photos. Did you come up something good for that dumpster diving video? Yet? Phil? I see you looking and thinking, well, yeah, I well, he mentioned Oscar the Grouch. I'm trying to see if I can. I'm thinking about how I can running on that. Are there any sest me street songs I can sample?

And that's how a creative man works down there. I could always turn you want to see how creative man works down that way? That easy. I got a head of the favorite favorite to ask a brad. So I have this ice breaker that I've like endlessly annoyed people in my circle with. I bring it up often huge the huge glass thing. Nope, no different, that was like that was like college era Spencer. This is like recent.

I still bug people this question. I asked him what the U S state is that they think about the least? It's ever like yours answer, because then like three answers later be like, oh, actually it's this one. I never think about this one. It's a great question, man, I love it. I'd love to play it sometime with you guys. Anyway, the most common answer I get is Connecticut. Oh I believe that. So why why should folks think of Connecticut? Do some pr work for them? Oh? I can answer

you right now. I think it's a great topic because I felt that way for the longest time. Connecticut just to drive through state, I almost don't want to give it up, right, but like whatever it's, you don't want to spot burn Connecticut. It's a gem like it's you know, like it was always just like in the way a few, like another two hours until you got to a cool state like New Hampshire, Rhode Island from Maine. I mean those they are awesome. Everyone's going up there for con

vacation land, you know. And but Connecticut there's it's just as beautiful. And where I'm at, it's like it's right at the on the border Rhode Island, and it's right where it starts to become you know, ocean, and it's just i mean really nice, active, small agricult a lot of farm not a dairy, a lot of cattle, a lot of sheep, lot of like ease is a seaweed farmers and um, just a lot of really cool things happening out there. And and it's kind of like slept

on a little bit, you know. It's and it's not in the middle of nowhere like mystics of town there. Providences is super close international airports, only like thirty five minutes. But then I'm you know, it's but then I'm sitting in the middle of nowhere, ten minutes from the ocean. That's a good answer, but it sucks. Stay away. Yeah, alright, brad Leoni, thanks for having me, man, Thanks thanks for coming on what did he get as a fisherman? Six five? Oh as a fisherman? I think it was six five

brad Leon six point five Mountain White Fisherman. There's five podcast? Yes, I'm doing nine point five? You got you guys? Do you guys score people? Just starting Jesse? What do you give him? Podcast? You like to throw around these numbers Chester, um guest, I'm not as probably good at rating podcast, but I would say n boys, that's a phenomenal sport. Room for improvement, always, always, every category. That's going to be the name of my new show room. All right, thanks guys, thank you,