Ep. 230: A Difficult Conversation

often talk about just some juvenile stuff before we get rolling. Yeah, but just throwing any comments you got. But uh, I wanted I need to catch him with the because there's some things I haven't talked with you about, like for real, we haven't talked about um out filming doss Boat season two dose boat. That's right, I wanted to call it dose boat. I didn't come up with that. Did someone shut you down? Well? I think Josh Pristine came up

with that because he's super good at name and stuff. Um, he's good at making long sentences, but he's very good at a very short things. So I thought it was great that season two, like doss Boat would become dose Boat. But I've been educated on the fact that you can't just name a show something new because people don't find it. So I'm thinking doss boat season two, dose boat. Um, but you were out filming that, you could say seasoned dose maybe no, to keep it a little shorter. No, No,

you don't like that. Uh what how did it go? I mean, were you excited about it? I was very excited? Uh? Yeah, I mean I maintained my excitement to um. But we we had some tough fishing. We had we had fun building adding the stuff to the boat. We did not have tough fishing. And as I left, I told the crew you will now have tough fishing, not because of you, because what you're going to do. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know why you cast that, you know, cloud of pests pessimism, because we used to go up now and then and think we're going to do that and cash that hatch in the dark. Yeah, what we would do is, uh, get swarmed by unbelievable amounts of biting insects. Yeah, and then you'd hear fish now and then, and you spend a lot of time trying in the dark to get your back cast untangled from the alders. And see, I've got more skills than that, so I didn't have

that problem thrue. What I was there trying to do is there's a bug called the Hexagenia and it's a giant mayfly. It stands huge sons of bitches, almost two inches on top of the water. I mean, it literally looks like a little sailboat going down the water. And they're very attracted to your garage door. The light. Yeah, if you have like a light your garage, you wake up one summer day and all of a sudden, they're all over your yard light and somehow stuck to your

garage door. I remember that from being a youngster there when the hash on certain years when it can be very very thick, and it will litill congrete under the lights, and I was told actually that they'll they'll end up on the sidewalk underneath the lights because they think that's the surface of the water because there's a bit of

reflection there. But they were saying, they were saying in some of those northern Michigan towns, Yeah, so the light is reflecting on the sidewalk right, that's where it's hitting. And so even though the light might sort of attract them. It's the fact that they're seeing that sort of shiny surface that's under the light in the darkness all around that. Yeah, even though they must have thought the water was vertical.

Any tiny little continue they can be so thick that they'll bring out the no plows to scoot off the bugs off these sidewalks. Oh my god. Yeah, is it stink too. I'm guessing there's got to be some sort of It wasn't that thick when I was there, so I didn't get to experience that. I was happy and almost just stories of cars crashing, yeah, from the slickness. Well that and I grew up there. I was there twenty years. I never saw any of this ship. I

never saw anything. Things happened, though I grew up telling people that they happen. You were doing other things after ten pm. See, that's the thing. It only comes off like like thirty minutes after dark. And in northern Michigan at the end of June, I mean literally, you're out there at ten thirty and you're like, I can still see, you know, twilight in the sky, and once it got completely dark and this is it's like eleven and finally you shine the light on the water and there you go.

You can they're starting to float down the river, and in the right conditions it brings up a lot of the fish and a lot of the big fish, and some of these rivers, these fish can intake like I forget what it is like fort of their annual you know, dietary intake annual calories in like a week or two when they get to feed on these giant bucks, right,

so very important food source. And unfortunately for me, we got hammered with like thirty six hours of rain and the temperature went from like high of ninety to a high of like fifty five and it just made the trout sulk. They just went to the bottom and went put a pout. They put a potty face on and didn't want to do anything. So we were trying to everything. I mean, we were throwing you know, spinners and rappolas, and the only thing I didn't throw was a as

a nightcrawler. I probably should have. But the last day we um changed gears and went out to a lake where there where there was known to be some good small amount fishing, and we caused some small amount. No. No, I was going full Matt Elliott. You were just trying to cat fish. Uh the boat. So the boat for the boat for dose boat is a boat that I knew all through growing up. One of my fishing mentors down the lake from me, a guy named John Gary had he all. He bought this boat the year before

I was born. He bought in n and it still has all the registration stickers on it going back to seventy No, because like you buy him in blocks of years. But anyways, the first one that counts for seventy three and then paces all down the side of the boat and then it's like in four year increments or however they do the registration stickers, they're still all on there. When he died, we got his boat and it sat in my mom's pole or outside my mom's pole, bron

for twenty years. And then we refurbished the boat and that's our new fishing boat. It's a very seaworthy vessel. I mean, with that trans and redone and the new engine on it. It was I was glad we had to take the engine off because we were floating it down the river, which is like, you know, part of the fun of this show is that you know you're gonna take a boat. It's not meant to go float

down the river. Take the engine off of it. And then and then, because of the way the boats shaped and the way you row a boat down a river, you go down backwards. You're still looking forwards, but the boat itself is oriented, you know, backwards like pictures that the current. You want to have the ability to not go the speed of the current. Yeah, so the current slipping under the curvature of the bow right. Um, it

was tricky to row. It's such a narrow beam on that boat that it made the oars seem very heavy because you had much more shaft at the oar outside of the oar lock versus inside. We got it done, We figured it out. It was fun. I was just hoping the whole time. I was thinking, like, is John Gary looking down from the heavens thinking like this is cool that you guys try to do. He was an eccentric dude, John Gary. Uh. He didn't understand why it's had collars, and he would cut the collars off his

collared shirts instead of wearing a T shirt. He just had all the shirts. He removed the college and I don't know why it's there. I'm like I don't either, and so he would just cut it off. And one time I was at a he um. He was old, and I was at his house and he told me he needed he wanted to just have a little bit easier time with money, and he said, I will sell you this house and everything in it, he said, right down to my shoes, for seventy five dollars, the catch

being I live here till I die. And that would have been a very very smart financial move for me to have made, but I just dismissed it, and then later realized what a missed that was. Yeah, I would have made a lot of money. You probably can't buy a garage on that lake for seventy five dollars anymore. I became residential. So what happened to the place? Oh, doctor bought it and fix it all up and changed and tore down his fish, tore down his fish shed,

let his boat launch go to ship. What's funny is this guy? My brother is a doctor, but uh and one day we met him, were walking down the beach and my brother has nothing on but a pair of cut off denim shorts and it just looks like, you know, something, the cat dragged in and so we get to this guy's place. An eccentric dude. He's an eccentric guy. He doesn't play by the rules. Whatever their rules are, he doesn't. He doesn't even know what they are. But we get

there and we meet this guy. It's like, oh, this guy about John Gary's house. And so we're talking about John and us growing up in and around the house. And the guy introduced himself as whatever, like doctor or young you know, and my brother goes, well, I'm Dr Ronella, and the guy thought he was messing with it was funny. All right, Rue, Um, we'll talk more about Dulse Bowl later. I don't want to waste all your time, I know I'm here. First off, how do you have the name?

Are you eat? Well? It's actually short for Roulette, like Russian roulette. Yeah, yeah, like literally on your mom and dad and you Roulette totally uh. And there's no story. I wish there was a story. Roulette, Yes, Roulette, like the game I was taking Roulette, like in Russian Roulette. But there's also the game Roulette, both games which is a financial version of Russia, both games of chance. But no that I wish there was a story. But there

wasn't a story. I always asked my mom, like, so why did you Because you know, when you're a kid, no one, you know, people say, oh, that's such a pretty name. But as I got older, people were like, so did your parents gamble a lot? Did they mean? And and like I'd be in these business meetings and like my name became the punchline. Why don't you switch it back to roulette? Well, because I don't always want to be a punch line, but like it's just it's just it's a crazy ye you can see that you

get sick of. Even if I had a great story, I would go for it. But because there's no story, I just feel like want want, Like people are kind of let down, you know, they anticipate that I'm gonna, you know, talk about some wild Vegas conception night, and they didn't like win you in a game of Roulette? You need to do? You need to do? And me to find out it might be like, oh they're not

my parents. Yeah, well there there's definitely some narrative there, but um but yeah, I just you know, rue you know, came together for me around like my mid twenties, and I just just feel really solid, like being like a two syllable name route map, so it's great. Have you ever met another roulette Roulette map that's even weirder, I know because rue is like French street and then last name map with two ps. So I have grown into this street map navigational name. So it works branding a

lot of symbolism there, definitely. Uh, I want to ask you one more question for I asked my main questions before I set the table here. Uh, your dad was a cowboy. Yeah, he considered himself a cowboy for sure. I am definitely the first generation Californian. My dad came from Texas, um. His dad was a cattle rancher, and you know, it's something that I totally took for granted and didn't really come to understand that there were so many people like my dad who came from the South.

But the thing that was really unique about my dad is that he brought along in a really active way his love for the outdoors. And so even though you know, my parents came to Oakland and as many African Americans did between you know, the World War two through the early seventies, he you know, he had the place in Oakland, but he wanted to have a place where he could

pursue you know, his outdoor passions. So we had this ranch with about fifteen acres when I was little, and we had cows and we had pigs, and that was that was you know, his that was his his place

where he got his life together. But I read somebody you being embarrassed he had he had dead pigs hanging over yeah, because you know, we'd bring that stuff back to Oakland, you know, and like the garage would be open, you know, and there'd be you know, animals hanging and asan uh in the garage and the bus would pass

by and I'd be mortified. But but yeah, I mean it was really It's one of those things you just don't realize how special it was to have had that really unique background, um even you know for me in Oakland, UH, to be able to have those connection points both you know, in an urban setting, but also you know, to be able to be in a wild place and in a family that truly valued hunting and fishing and harvesting, um

all kinds of things. And it's been a big, wonderful journey through my work to help bring those things back to more people and to recreate those opportunities for more people, you know, so that we can you know, just help people get their lives together and help people get more connected to what's really real about nature. You know what

winds up making this relier? I said, like to set the scene, there's a there's a part about this conversation that makes me uncomfortable because we're gonna talk about like we're gonna talk about race, okay, and we're talking about Afro outdoors and so I'm sorry outdoor afterca people people do that all the time too. Yeah, I apologize. People

call us man eater all the time. Uh. When growing up, okay, I grew up in a very like like strictly white setting for the most part um, and the thing that you were taught to strive for was like total color blindness. That was sort of the north star. And it would that you would never sit it would be like that. It would just be the thing you would never ever do that you would sit with someone and say, um, you're black, how does how do you feel about this?

That would be like ship. You would never do that, even even though, to be honest with you, the only thing in your head is like super aware. Yeah, you're thinking it. Oh, yeah, you're like, I'm talking to I'm talking to a black woman. I don't want to mess up like what, I don't know, she might have a totally different worldview, but don't ask. Don't ask because they're all color blind, right, And I'm still a little bit

stuck in that. Yeah, well you're gonna have to get over it in this conversation because I want you to talk. I want you to see me. You know, it's not complicated, like it's okay to have difference, It's okay. What do you say here being like I'm talking to a white dude. No, I'm talking to somebody who loves the outdoors and I want to connect on that. So how do we get there?

How do we get there to talk about? How do we get there where it's let me cut set another thing before I'm starting to with Fosburg the other day, who I believe you've been on the phone with. He's the presidency of TRCP. Yeah, and I was telling him, I'm like, I was giving him like what I recognized as a problem because we were trying to have you on a long time ago, but we got derailed by COVID, and I was like, man, I hope. I mean, you knew that you were scheduled come out, but I'm like,

I hope. I feel now that it's become like a thing where it's like a forced conversation when it would have before been like a more natural but now everybody's hackles her up. And now you're like, like, by talking about something, you sort of get crucified. You get crucified to not talk. Some people are gonna be pissed that you're not talking about race. You're gonna be pissed that you are talking about race. Oh now you're interested in race? And what was like, just be glad she's coming out.

But but but let's let's really I mean, I think it's important that people know our origin story here. You know, like I actually reached out to your team last fall, and I reached out because I had seen your show and actually I had heard about your podcast well before that. I was with some colleagues who I work with on the board for the Wilderness Society, and you know, we're just sitting at you know, um this conference and we're

talking about you know, podcasts that we all listened to. Inevitably, we get to that conversation like what are you listening to because it's a way of getting to know people. And someone told me that I should listen to Meat Eater and it was with this disclaimer, right, but it was like, with this disclaimer, it's like, yeah, but it's really cool, Like it's not like just about you know, you know, just the stereotype of people who you know,

hunt and fish. And I'm like, well, look, you know, I'm I'm already with it, you know, so I'm I'm definitely just interested just because I'm interested in that topic and with my background. So I listened to your show and then I saw that you had a show on Netflix, of course, and I watched that and I realized, like we had so much common language and so much common language.

That was really about how helping people understand their possibilities of being in the world and understanding wildlife more and living in harmony with it, but also as a way

to connect with other people across difference. And that resonated so deeply with me that I thought about writing you for a couple of weeks until I actually did, and I just you know, I sent one of those you know emails, you know, via your contact us link on your I mean, you know it's one of the yeah, yeah, you just you just send it off into the night. You know, you have no idea who's gonna read it. If someone will read it, it gets it lands in

there amidst a lot of emails, photos of mangled fingers. Yeah, all kinds of things. Because I'm the recipient of those kinds of emails. Like people write us for all kinds of reasons, to partner with us, to pour their souls out to us, to you know, talk about race. All of you know, we've been very fortunate. That may change after this call or this interview. But but I think that for some reason, and I have I have some

suspicions about what that reason is. Is because our Dafro is so forward in its love story and its love story about community, and its love story about nature. And that's what I really got from your work, and that connected deeply with I felt the values that we have without dar Afro and that which I grew up with. So I reached out and a real human responded and said, Hey, I'd love to talk to you on the phone and hear more about what you're thinking. And I didn't have

a goal. I just wanted I just wanted to connect and I wanted you to see that Hey, I see you, and and uh, we'll see where the ripples go. And that that began last fall, and then we had our

plans to do a turkey hunt together. Let's I forgot about that and I were going to go turkey on Yeah we should, And so we already had that plan for April, and then the whole shelter in place happened and then I got you know, everybody you know couldn't do anything um during that time, and so this was really our first opportunity UM, and we made I hate to interrupt, but I'm going to, but it's actually gonna work out in your favor because where I was planning

to take you, I didn't quite know the zone very well and it took me quite a while to figure it out. Now, we did end up killing a turkey in the general area. Later, if you come back next year, I've got a dial Okay, okay, I'll be ready. UM. So I think it's important that people know that that this was one initiated by me to this had you know, a time frame that that began in advance of all of the kind of ship show we're living through right now. Um,

Yet I'm grateful. And that's how I felt. As soon as the pandemic hit, as soon as the whole sweep of Black Lives Matter really kind of landed upon us as a country, I just felt so grateful to be doing work that feels in a lot of ways more urgent than ever before. Um. When the sheltering place happened and I saw people getting outside and getting into parks, I mean I saw kids on bicycles and on rollerblades,

and I saw families out in nature. I saw our parks be overwhelmed because I think that people had this this primal awareness that they needed to connect with nature for their healing. In that moment. While you wouldn't be able to go to a restaurant or a movie theater,

people knew, they knew they had nature. And so we began just making sure that folks knew that we were there for them, We were there for families, and we were also there to help people recognize that nature is not necessarily in a place where you go and drive to, but it's all around you. It's your window sill. Like I was, just like you know, in the beginning of the sheltering place. I looked outside and I saw my lazy pit bull laying on the grass like she always does.

I saw, you know, the blue scrub jay coming through like it always does. And I just again, you know, grounded myself to take my cueue for how to be at this time. And that's like nature, and that's that's where I keep going back to in this time. And I think right now I think about Outdoor Afro and just my whole you know, reason for being with Outdoor Afro is really about how I can help through this work more people find common ground. And I think people

are looking for that right now. Explain the explain the mission of Outdoor Afro, but then also tell me what you're going to tell me about. Um, when I said that the the north star of like total color blindness, like convinced me that that's not the north star anymore. Well, Outdoor Afro is two very different questions. Yeah, yeah, and I got you. I got here. Okay, I'm tracking. Uh So, Outdoor Afro celebrates and inspires black people to reconnect to

the outdoors. And reconnect as a really intentional word that I use because as I kind of moved through the journey of developing outdoor afro um, you know that was born in social media. I just had a personal blog and I started talking about growing up wild and all the things that I used to do in the outdoors. And what happened was that there were folks who responded back to me. And this is back in the first wave of social media. So the algorithms are all nice

and flat. You didn't have to pay to play um, and you could literally and I did, from my kitchen table have this very intimate conversation about all the things that I loved about being in the outdoors and about my family traditions and the outdoors. And people responded back and they were like, you're telling my story. This is my life too. And that's when I realized that we had a visual representation problem, that we didn't see people who look like me or like my dad. Like my

dad loved nature, he loved wildlife. But he never would have called himself a conservationist or an environmentalist ever, because that was just not where he took his cues from. He took his cues from his dad, who got it from his dad, and so on and so forth, and so it's really been for Outdoor Afro our effort to really help restore that sense of outdoor leadership and knowledge

back to the home. I really want people to have their nature swagger, Like you go out and you know how to be, how to live, what to harvest, what to set aside, what to leave behind for poison, you know, like what, like how to really understand nature and not think about nature as someplace that you have to drive to and access through a parking lot and just be comfortable and be comfortable and respectful, you know at the

end of the day. So I've had a lot of experiences through Outdoor Afro and connecting with people from all over all kinds, all walks of life, from children, two elders, and eventually people wanted to find communities of folks to get outside with. So we started what we called the Outdoor Affro Leadership Team. And for me, this was really disruptive because I didn't go for the wildlife biologist or you know, the eagle scout, the people who we traditionally

think of as the experts in the outdoors. I went instead for the real estate broker, or the the preschool teacher or uh, the accountant the attorney, And then we even had military vets who said, Hey, I love nature and I want to share what I love about nature

where I live with others in my community. And so I brought those folks together and we trained and and and really learned from one another about risk management, of course, and trip planning and logistics, but also things like, you know, how to tell our story in a different way, how to use you know, and harness social media and other mediums where we weren't present right now, but where we could you know, move the needle on, lifting up this other vision of how people who look like me could

be out in nature, strong, beautiful and free. And um, it's really been phenomenal how that's grown. Um right now, we have you know, that started off as a group of about eleven people who said yes to being an

out draft our leader. And every year, you know, we've grown incrementally, just taken the time to really learn about what we're doing and why we're doing it, and not getting bigger just to be bigger, you know, Like vanity metrics mean nothing to me, you know, because I see a lot of people being big and being wrong, you know, or being you know, unwieldy, and so we just grew incrementally our team and this class that we have this year is about ninety men and women from thirty states,

and we have a participation network about forty people and they get out with us and they hike and they bike in the camp and the bird and they do all kinds of things. Um. And one of the things I want to continue to move the needle on is as people get more comfortable being in the outdoors, you know, how can we talk more about sustainably hunting and fishing and helping people really round out their experiences in the outdoors.

And I'm actually relearning a lot of those skills right alongside them as my parents have passed away, um, you know several years now. Um. You know, you really need a community of people around you to pursue some of these activities that you know, as you describe, take a long time and take a lot of hands and a lot of equipment and uh and so the the on ramping can be pretty steep when you start talking about some sportsman's activities. So I'm looking forward to building more community,

deliberate community around on that as well. Yeah, mentors are hard to come by they are you can build like a you know, and that's what I'm hoping that will do. That's right as I'm hoping we'll do is like really create you know, I've been calling it the B side of outdoor AFRO after dark or maybe before sign up UM,

where we're you know, deliberately building community. And I've had some great conversations with California UM Fishing Wildlife to come up with ways and we can actually start folks, you know, at the phase of getting there, you know, hunter certifications and then moving them through the fall early winter to get a duck hunt you know, and a big feast at the end and and really bring people through the continuum of good education, UM, good conservation ethic UM harvesting seasonably,

but also like getting their grub on at the end. So what is the what are participation rates? UM? Like I know that we have like for for fishing is a lot better, hunting is ten male female? Yeah, I've heard three African American. You know, it depends, you know, do you know the rates like now yeah? Yeah. And also I mean, you know, you kind of get to this question that I get asked a lot, like it's the why don't you know black people do blah blah blah.

And I think it really has to do with who you're hanging around with, um, what you're you know, where your geographic area is, because you definitely see, for instance, in the South, you know, proportions, And so I really look at not like these like finite amounts in this big pie of how many people are doing an activity. I always measure like in proportion to people's population and

their opportunity. Right, So if you have like a big population in an area of you know, black people, um, then you're gonna probably have higher rates of participation in all kinds of things, all kinds of outdoor activities, especially if those um access points are near where people live. And so I'd like to unpack those statistics a little bit because people will shoot me with the well there's zero zero point one percent of black people who go

to Yosemite. I'm like, well, whoa whoa whoa? Wait, Like, is that like all of nature? Or is that like one park that is about four hours from where people live. And I think about you know, just the lives of busy working families, you know, on the weekends you may or may not have time off to go and drive someplace where you've never been, to do things you've never

done before with people you've never met. I mean, that's a there's so many big asks in that, and so that's why whenever people choose to come out with us, I always start by thanking them, you know, thank you for saying yes to first of all, getting up from your warm bed on you know, a Sunday morning, maybe before the sun comes up. Thanks for saying yes to that. Thanks for getting in your car and finding this place.

Because we know navigation is a huge challenge for people, especially when you get out to remote areas, and then you know, for trying something you've never done before and around people who you don't know, because you know, I've been there. I've been in the embarrassed one where everyone's got the skill and I don't um or you know, the physical abilities and I don't, you know, And so we spend a lot of time helping people to get

prepared and to feel confident. And then once they're there, they're supported, you know, and they don't have to feel like they're the only one in the group you know who has to you know, know things and we don't, you know, have a competitive atmosphere, you know, where you've gotta you know, have the biggest, go the fastest, you know, bag the tallest um in order to feel successful. Um. And so when it comes to being seen, though, I think it's really important that we really see each other.

And I think that when we really take the time to see each other, I think it opens the door for greater understanding and empathy and it reveals the core of the love store of what outdoor Afro is really about. I want you to see that I stand on the shoulders of you know, black people who you know made a way out of no way quite frankly, um, who you know, learned how to live off the land. UM, sometimes under to rest, but sometimes of their own choosing.

And they did it in a really powerful and beautiful way. And that there's so much that's when I think about America and I think about you know, the ways that there's just these intertwined histories. UM. I think it's important to recognize that we have all been in this thing together for a long time. And even if we you know, didn't live in a neighborhood you know where you were necessarily integrated. I think the effect on the overall culture, um, the foods we eat, the music we listen to. It's

undeniably um. You know, intersectional in the way that we've been in relationship in in a in a deliberate way for forever um. And so I gets something to be celebrated versus avoided. And I think that we can we can look at difference and not look at difference from a hierarchical point of view. Um. And I think that that's where, you know, we end up in these slippery slopes that if you notice it, then then somehow you're

positioning a higher and a lower. And some people do, let's be real, But I think that it's some people do what I think something hierarchy. Yeah, I think that some people do. And I think that that you know is something that that we all manage. But again, I go back to this work as an opportunity to really free ourselves of those isms and those judgments that can somehow cloud are our way of getting to know one another. You know. One of the things that I say, um,

and I'm saying more and more frequently. And you know, when I go out into nature, you know, the trees don't know that I am black. You know, the birds are gonna sing no matter how much money is in my bank account, and the flowers are gonna bloom no matter what my gender is or my political party. And so I feel like nature really gives us this broad platform to be but also to understand one another. Like when I was UM, I was in the Arctic refuge um with some friends and we had just landed um

just beyond the Brooks Range on the Chilick River. We're gonna, we're gonna, you know, paddle down to um the ocean, and just when we landed, we had seen like this whole like biblical herd of porcupine cariboo, and we were just mesmerized. I've never seen that many you know, um caribou, any cariboo, but that many, that many hearts beating altogether. Yeah, yeah, I mean you can't like, you can't be the same

after seeing that. So after that had happened, we're just kind of standing there, stunned and you know, really mesmerized by just being in that landscape and having that experience. A beer pops up in camp and you know, you know, I honestly it was it was it was terrifying. It was shocking, and there were some people who, you know, do what humans like to do sometimes with charismatic mega fauna.

And that's the reason, go away bear, you don't want to we hear bear clap clap clap um there, you know, and the bear spray got deployed and all that, and I'm like standing behind a raft, you know, as if that was gonna make a difference, and my knees were all shaken, and you know, and just literally no more than a minute or so because the bear just looked at us curiously. It was not aggressive at all, and it just you know, took a whiff of that you know,

that Arctic air and just disappeared in the landscape. And uh, that was a moment where I had a hard reset of my humanity. I realized that I was in that bear's wild, and I think that there's this perception as humans that we are we are at cause in the wild.

And it just reordered things for me in the right way that I was not at the top of the food chain first off, and had that bear decided to enjoy any of us for takeout, that that wild would continue to lumber on without any regard for its human passengers and that, Um, you know, that was just another of many lessons um that I've learned, um in this work that while I'm leading people and helping people to get outside, you know, I'm also sharing my revelations and

my experiences to really help deepen more people's understanding about what it means to be in relationship with the wild and how you know, that bear. You know, we may not be you know, at at cause in that moment, but we have a responsibility to help protect you know, where that bear lives, and and to be with that bear in a way that's that's responsible for it to

be able to stick around. Can you talk about uh, drowning because I think this is it was I was reading an interview with you, um, and you brought up You're kind of talk about like different relationships with different activities and how can different activities like how can there be a sort of racial bias toward different activities. Yeah,

that's a great question. Have you ever read, um, did you have read read The Unbearable Lightness of Being by Kundra Milan Kundra a long time ago has a lot to do with it's kind of this condemnation of communism but in the unbearable lightness of being as a guy and as a girl friend. And the writer gets into when a parade goes by, like she grew up in um communist Czechoslovakia. I think I can. I think she

grew up in communist Czechoslovakia. When she sees a parade, it means something very very different, very different than when the other person sees a prey. One's a celebration and another one is a holy ship. Yeah, one's imagining this sort of American Fourth July esque and one of us imagine, like, oh ship, here's the Communes showing off their military, you know,

And like the word parade takes out something different. And I read this thing in this I think as you saying I can't here because you are and someone else talking about someone brought up swimming and pools like the historically to be pools that were just like flat out say like no black people can swim in this pool, absolutely, and now we have. And then you kind of linked this to drowning rates today. I think it's an interesting way for people to to begin to see a little

bit of what we're talking about. Yeah, I mean, it's it's no like it's no fantasy. You know that there was a time in a not too distant past when there were pools and beaches and public areas you know, I mean and and like public property. Yeah, public property, public beaches. Um. I think there was a bloody summer in Chicago where there were you know, people getting beaten

for for trying to access the shoreline. Um. There have been beaches, um, everywhere where there has been restricted or excluded, um, you know, parts where black people could not be, There have been public pools, you know where black people were not allowed. And so the consequence of that is that today we have a drowning rate of black children who were drowning five times the rate of their black with

their white peers ages five through nineteen. So, you know, the public health consequence that your grandmother or your mother wasn't able to learn how to swim and develop a relationship with water is still felt today. And so in response to that, one of the things that Outdoor Afro set out to do last year was to award swimmerships.

And so we set out to get as many babies in the water as we could and um, I wanted to you know, get about seventies swimmerships out I call them swimmerships basically their swim scholarships for for lessons, and we were able to, with the support of a lot of folks, get nearly two hundred of those swimmerships to them.

The reason why is because if a child doesn't know how to swim, they're not going to ease into a tippy kayak, they're not going to put a pole in a lazy lake, and they're not going to give a damn about plastic in the ocean. So it's not just about people's lives being saved, it's about that being such a cornerstone skill that until we can get people comfortable with water, they're just not gonna be able to pursue a wide variety of outdoor recreation activities, uh much less

fishing um. And I just remember it was about ten years ago before outdoor aftro really was a thing, and I had gone out with a bunch of friends and we had rented a catam iran in the Caribbean Ocean, and and I thought, I mean, I was really comfortable. I'd I'd swim all my life, and our host had swam as well. But most of the people who were on that camera, and I don't think they really understood

what they were getting into. And when the water became really choppy, um, even though people had their p f d s on, people were terrified in that moment and they couldn't enjoy it. You know, some people got sick. I mean, it was it was a disaster. But had those people had comfort and a feeling of of even you know, just steadiness around water, it would have been

a totally different experience. And so that's one of the reasons why out or Affro exists, is because we are responding to some of the historical barriers that were real, while also celebrating the fact that people did persist in learning how to swim, learning how to be in nature, folks like my dad for instance. And so we're you know, trying to remedy some of the past while also lifting up some of the figures in our history who were

every bit the wilderness leaders. I think oftentimes about Harriet Tubman. You know, we don't think about her as a wilderness leader, but how did she get people moving across state lines in the cover of night and not no nature, not no not not know the sound of you know, the birds that may share warning you know, or where too, you know, stop and and and and eat or or what can you harvest from the landscape? Like how how

could she have done that without nature knowledge? And so for her, for me, she you know, embodies a way that we can look at people in our history in a different way, you know, rebrand if you will, but really, you know, look at history of African and Black Americans um in an empowered way, you know, versus one that

only needs saving. Interesting when you look at American history is uh, the rapid, like the rapid relatively recent urbanization of Blacks that if you go back a couple hundred years, I mean outside of their own choosing, but because they were, uh, your ancestors were like owned by people, and we're told what to do and where like intrinsically tied to nature without even like an option to not be tied to nature.

But it's like working in agriculture, living in you know, situations with no running water, even like share cropping and things where you're working the soil and you're sort of like what you eat is directly dependent on what you do with your own hands. And then in the and then in the reconstruction era, like after the end of the Civil War that that these people who were like really connected to the seasons and natural systems for a need to find work into escape persecution went to northern

cities to get manufacturing jobs. And it's funny, how I should say funny, just interesting how in a couple of generations are like even our associations would be, um, they like cities, right, So that was like a natural order of things, and we lose sight of sort of like the factors that led the demographics and sociological factors that lead people to be where they are in a way that in a very short period of time we look and there's this assumption like that's how you like it, right,

and it's wrong, and that's and it's and it's a disruption absolutely, because you know, I read Isabelle where Wilkerson's book The Warmth of other Sons, and it talks about in painful detail, how people you know, had to basely black people were refugees in this country and jumped on on trains and and didn't get off until the train ran out in places like Chicago and New York and Oakland, uh in Los Angeles and created and and my my folks were a part of that that wave of that

great migration, and it was really I mean when I think a lot about their beginnings, like they they did what's called hot bedding, you know where they work in the shipyards. Um. You know, as a family, you know, uncles and and you know Ken all shift doing shift work, yeah, doing shift work, and also sleeping and shifts in the same beds like so you know, the bed always stayed

hot um. And I just think about like the grit um and the tenacity of people to you know, leave what what they loved, you know, to create something new, and and even those new places not being welcome place for them to be necessarily. But you're right and that you know, we are not generationally speaking, we are not more than a couple of generations away from that knowledge, that connection, that knowing nous with nature. And I feel like that's a huge job that outdoor afro Um you know,

is responsible for. And that is it's not talking about the absence of but the presence of and how it's always been there. How if you look at you know, like all of the ways that black people have been in this country, we have been everywhere doing everything and if even if you don't see it in a magazine or if it's if you don't see the representation in a particular club or organization, it doesn't mean that it

doesn't exist. And so that's you know, that's that's a huge part of the work is to tell a new narrative, and to tell a narrative that again is empowered and really helps us to find a way to we may not ever get back to those those places where we are completely. And then there's some parts of it, you know, as you as you pointed out, we don't want that's

what that was. That's what I wanted to ask you next, because it's as I said that, after I said it, I realized sort of like a like a miss in my logic would be that I don't know, Let's say you're you know, you're a slave, and you're supposed to build the Egyptian pharaoh's tomb, right, and so you're forced to learn to be a stonemason, and you build these works of human engineering that will be celebrated, right for

thousands of years. Does that person who was enslaved to build King Tut's tomb look and be like, now that was the life I learned Stonemasonry. By God, I was good at it? Or is it just like, uh, don't please don't invite me to be nostalgic about my agrarian background because I happened to be there like under force of a whip. So don't. I'm not gonna get like all you know, sentimental about living close to the land. Exactly.

It's got to be tricky, well because a lot of people, like, you know, you go back and you want to you know, people go back and you maybe over embellished, you want to like accentuate uh, your hardships because it creates this personal narrative. Um. But that's the whole of the level. Yeah, it is, it is, And again that's why I stay.

I stay grounded in new narrative creation. You know, So going back in your family history and recognizing how you've been empowered doesn't negate the bad stuff, right How do we take the things that that actually could be in service of a better life right now and create something new for ourselves? Is what I think our ask is, you know, because I'm I you know, as much as I appreciate the ways that that that folks have had historical context, doesn't mean I need to go back to

those places. Is um in every way. But I think that sometimes in our effort to distance ourselves from those bad things, we throw away the good stuff too. And so how do we because for instance, you know, for some people living you know, in the country, or you know, learning about you know, or being engaged with our food ways may feel backwards, right, it may feel like a

lack of progress. And so what I what I hope to do through this work is to really help lift up that those skills, those abilities, and your quality of life, you know, is actually progressive in a way that you can live longer, you know, be be healthier, um and and find more joy and connection. So is there any is there any sentimentality for nature or is it all

like um? Or is it is there any language of returning to or is it all framed as there's this thing out there that we haven't engaged in and it's beautiful and let's go find out about it. For for the folks in our community, let's also recognize that the outdoors and nature, wild, remote nature has not always been

regarded as a safe place for black bodies. I remember I was I was about ten years old, and I was like watching a special about um civil rights movements, and you know, in the whole kind of timeline of various events happening, which you know, honestly don't feel a lot different than the life than what we're living through right now. And there was the there was a story

of Himmett Till, you know. And then for those who don't know, em Matt Till was um, you know, a Chicago boy, and what people did when they moved to northern cities and they still had family living in the South, they would send their children to the South for the summertime so that parents could work, um and for various reasons, um, to maintain those familial connections. And so he like, you know, realize that about Emmett Till, So he had gone he was born in the North, Yeah, he was. He was.

He was visiting his southern relatives and you know got you know, was misunderstood and ended up brutally. He made a he didn't have the he addressed a white woman without the appropriate deference, yeah, which was you know, fatal for for for young and he was a boy, beat him to death and tied him to a piece of

mill equipment and threw him off a bridge. So so what happened and um, hearing that story and seeing how you know, his his mom wanted to have an open casket so that the world could see, you know, what had happened to her. Boy, the brutality of it, I was, you know, I was. I was shocked. And I remember going right to my dad after seeing that. And I had asked him, you know, because he lived in Texas all of his life, and I had asked him. I was like, you know, do you know of anyone who's

been lynched? And he just leveled with me and he said all the time. And that helped me to get present at a really young age that there's been a disruption of a feeling of safety and belonging that exists in generational memory. You know, if your dad or if your grandfather can tell you firsthand stories and accounts of those types of things happening, and who you know still

hold those fears of something happening to you. Um, we you know, we sent out door aftro sent um you know folks on all kinds of different adventures, whether it

be Mount Whitney or kill Himanjaro. And I can't tell you that when those expeditioners go out, you know, just the real fear and concern that those families have for the safety of those folks for And I think that that's something that you know, we we we some groups can take for granted that you can go out and you can, you know, feel okay, and you might worry about wildlife to some extent if you're not experienced with it. But for black people, it's about being worried about other humans.

I was I was talking to a writer one time who wrote a piece about being um about being black and being afraid to be on public lands, and I called him to ask him what, like what he meant, right? I wanted him to back it up, like what he

meant when he said that. I could see that someone would say, Uh, let's say someone said I have concerns of being out in the woods on public land and getting shot by a hunter, And we could go and look in the news and we could find, like, here's a case where a guy what happened a year or two ago, someone like mistook a woman walking her dog for a deer, So we could go find instances that

would substantiate or not. Or someone says I'm afraid of grizzlies and be like, Okay, let's let's dig into this, right, Um, is being afraid of grizzlies warranted or not. Now they might still be like, yeah, I'm still but I get it statistically it won't happen, but I'm still afraid of them. But I wanted to understand, Like the fear of public lands. Yeah,

I don't know if it's public lands. I think it's just the fear of just being out, you know, in places where you know there's not anybody, in places where you don't feel defend table. And when it comes let's be clear here, when it comes to incidents of racism, rarely do you ever get the proof um, And really rarely do you need it. But in the case of

violent like physical safety and violent crime. Yeah, So here's here's how we address it in our organization because it comes up pretty frequently for us, and we're not you know out here, Yeah, we're not you know out here, you know, um publicizing our stats and things like that. Um. And we don't need to, you know, for it to be valid. Right, If someone you know tells me that they are confronted by a group of people who want to know why you're there, you know, what, what what

are you doing? How long are you going to be here? You know that's not really friendly and inviting, right, And so those are the kinds of things that you know are really tough to help people understand that just the unwelcoming peace can be enough of a of a barrier for people who you know are already coming in with a lot of again, a lot of historical narrative, a lot of things that you know, we've been, we've grown

up knowing about. And so when you go out to a place and people are confronting your very reason for being in a place, um, that alone is problematic. And those are the kinds of barriers that we have to push through in our work. I've personally experienced it, and I've got tremendous nature swagger. I go out and I don't feel ever that I don't belong in public lands. But I've absolutely encountered people who asked me a few too many questions to prove that you know, I belong

here and that I'm not a trespasser here. And I think it gets back to this idea that and it's I think this is kind of a tradition in a mindset that public lands belong to certain people, you know, and that even human humans as a whole, you know, don't belong in true wilderness. And I think there's just a bigger conversation we have to have, you know, around just this idea of humans belonging in nature and how

we can exist with nature generally speaking. But I think that when it comes to communities that have not one felt historically and have known historically that they're not welcomed and and and that bad things have happened in the wood, and there are statistics about that. I mean, from I believe eighteen seventy seven through nineteen fifty, there were forty four hundred, um uh instances of people being lynch men, women, children, shot maimed. And these are all and this is just

what we know, you know. So not everything gets reported, um. Not everything um, you know makes the front pages, but it doesn't make it true. Um. And So again this is why the work I do feel so relevant, because I want people to be able to come out in groups. Oftentimes people don't want to trapes out into the outdoors by themselves. They want to go out and groups of people to help them not only learn but importantly to feel safe and if people can continue to go out

again and again, which they do. Um, you know, I very much see Like the work we do is like you know, almost training wheels if you will, you know, for people to get out and go, wow, Okay, I know where to go, I know how to get there, I know where to park. I know I'll be okay there. Um. And so there's there's there's a lot of work to do around welcoming, and then there's this other thing that happens though, and it's overwelcoming, like hey, how are you doing?

Oh my god, you know it's yeah, yeah, yeah, It's like I walk me through and walk through what it feels like to be overwelcomed. Um. Just I mean just what I just said, you know, like where you where people are encroaching on your space, you know, and they're want to like you know, maybe I don't know. Like there's a great, a really great video that you should watch and your viewers could probably pull it up on

um Funnier Die. It's Blair Underwood and he has a spoof called Black Hiker, and uh, basically he's experiencing like the whole range of what happens as a black man in the outdoors, right, everything from you know, the white woman jogger who suddenly turns around and runs away because she is afraid of pursuit um to the park ranger you know, who's basically been following you the whole time and then gets you at the trail head and says you need to sign the guest book. And he's like,

why do I have to sign the guest book? Is there a rule that I have to sign the guest book? And then at the end, you know, they break down. They said, well, you know, we've just never seen a black hiker. Is my first time. I just we just need to know that you were here, you know. And so that's what I mean by overwelcoming. It's like I wanted to, like I I almost want to defend the over welcomer because like, at some point does it like

is there room for intention? I think that, you know, like if you're aware, like I've heard that because of the things that have gone on in this country, I've heard that black people often feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in certain places. And I don't want to contribute to that ship. So I don't want to also not acknowledge another person's presence you can, lest it be misconstrued as hostility. So in their head is like, um, I want to be a good person. I want to remedy or wrong, but

then they're a shitty actor. Yeah you know what I think. I think people put too much on it. Just just be with other people, Okay. But but I'm trying to be an apologist for the person who's like in their mind, they're like, I will not let this stand. I will not add to this. But when you encounter like the tenth of those people listen, it's a lot. You know, you're like, okay, all right, we're welcome. Okay, like let me, let me enjoy my campfire here, let me I want

to explain. I want to explain like a thing that like a way that that would happen to somebody. Okay, Uh, As animals, okay, we we human animals, we sort of like become trained and what's what we see? Like right, we become we just like subliminally see things and we become trained. What we're what we know is around us.

A thing we bring up in point, when I traveled to other countries like in America, I could see a person walking down street and I have a sense of what, Like when someone walks by my house, like that person is exercising. That person looks like they're racing home for some reason. That person looks like they're biking to the office. I don't deliberately deconstructed, but or whatever. It's like there's a guy with a bike, helmet and a suit on a shoulder back. I don't know. I never even get

into it. I just know, like, but when I go to other countries and we're driving down the road and then some far away land, another continent, it bothers me that everyone walking down the street my cues and I'm like, I don't know, Like I don't know what they're doing. And we even laugh about our inability to tell, like what is up with people? You know, because all your ship come on, if you see me out here with

hiking boots. Okay, let me finish my story. So if you if I spent my entire life, or let's just say, someone spent their entire life in an area where all they've ever seen walking down a trail in the woods would be like that dude's hunting, that woman's walking her dog. The woman with the suber out back and the like the nylon hat and wrap around shades and jogging is like an exercise fanatic, and you just build these things

in your head without thinking about it. And then you see a person like you see a person of another you see a black person, person of another race, you've never seen there you would there's a there's a trigger where you're like, it doesn't fit into what I'm accustomed to, and I could see how it would, how it would bring about and someone like a need to make sense of it, and see, that's exactly why we really have

to lift up different representation. This is again, this is a representation problem because if you don't see people who look like me in the glossy pages of the magazine or you know, you know, out in an empowered way, then yeah, you are going to be startled and perhaps disrupted in terms of your perception. I don't want to say startled, but disrupted where you're then because you can't you don't passively make sense of it, So then you're you put in this position of trying to actively make

sense of it. Yeah, I'm laying it all out for you. Yeah, I don't want making it uncomfortable. But I'm just trying to lay it out, you know, like how are our

heads work? Yeah, and I just I just you know, again, I go back to you know, sometimes we overthink ship like like, yeah, I mean what I mean by that is, you know, can people just be you know and just say hey, you know or whatever whatever the norm of communication is for a given place and just leave it at that, you know, because the idea that somehow, you know, you or you know, the example that you gave, you know, has to be responsible for creating my experience is in

its in and of itself disempowering. You know that I get what I do know it's not the job of that person, and I just feel I don't I don't take it as my job. Okay, I don't take it as my job. I'm not doing good at jobs. But it's like I take it as a moment where all the things that end your head that you don't calculate, okay, on the subject of just encountering an unexpected face, an unexpected body, all the things you don't take accounted for, and maybe it's like maybe it's an inherited racism that

you can't get rid of. Whatever it is stuck in your head. When you see a person you don't know, you're forced to then be like, well, how would it be, how would it be that they're here? Not antagonistic, but it sticks, like it just sticks you and kind of like, what are the circumstances of the individual? Do they live here? That's interesting? Yeah? Yeah, And I'm telling you that kind of interest an intrigue. To be on the other side

of that, it's not fun and it's not welcomed. I hate it too, like like I mean, not that I'm anywhere near that, but I don't Like I have been in situations in my life where you are aware of your presence and it sucks so to live like that

all the time on public lands. Yeah, and that's why I mean again, this is why the work is so important, because we have to lift up and really work through this perception that has been fed to us that's simply not true of who belongs in the outdoors because I want The thing is, people ask me all the time, they're like, Okay, what, like what are you really working

toward here? Right and saying and I'm working towards I get it because you told me, But like, how do you say that in an elevator, not an elevator, but like, well, you know, brief interaction. Well, it's it's been consistent and

that is you know. I mean we've learned a lot of things over the years, but I think your question really gets to, you know, what the goal is here, you know, because when the work is done, there's not going to be some big You're done and there's the parade and main you know, down Main Street, and you know you dissolves a good kind of parade, mind you. Um, you know it's not you know, that big, big moment.

It is really that quiet moment right in that moment when we look up when that guy that you just describe or that woman or whoever looks up and they're seeing people who look like me out recreating, enjoying the outdoors in proportion to their population, in their opportunity, and it's no big deal. And you don't go right, I mean like like like i'll give you, I'll give you a concrete example, since I know you like concrete examples, and um, I'm comfortable in the theoretical that's all right,

double background, No, no, let's dance. So so I um, I think a lot about and you're old enough to remember this, to know this, lived through this trajectory to like were roughly the same age, right, yeah, So like when we were little. I rarely get to say that

to people. So I'm going to say when we were little, yeah, because you were little kids at the same time, right, But usually it's like, what I was a little kid, you know, right, Um, But but when I was little, you were little, I'm sure you remember, Like you could smoke cigarettes everywhere. You could smoke them in the bank, you could smoke him on the train, you could smoke him in the restaurant, smoking or not smoking. You can smoke.

You can smoke airplanes, maybe airplanes in the back of the airplane nowadays and they still so right, So, like you could smoke everywhere. It was not even a thing. It was it was something that no one questioned. You know, there were people who probably were individually bothered by it, but generally in the culture, it was just something that was accommodated. And then over time it began to be not okay in certain places, and then it got to

the point where you really couldn't smoke anywhere. And now that's when I started to take pity on smokers. Yeah, like out in the rain, you know, like you can't even smoke, you can't even smoke cigarettes in front, like within twenty ft of a building now, right, But think about where we started, you know, and think about how it took a whole generation to really shift how we think about tobacco, how we think about smoking, how we think about you know, the appropriateness of it, as well

as greater awareness of the health consequences of that. That we're always there. But it took a lot of pulleys and levers and organizations and pr and you know a lot of different ways that folks work together to create that shift. And so that's one of the reasons why

I want to be on this show. That's one of the reasons why, you know, one big reason why I do Outdoor AFRO is because we have to be a part of those pulleys and levers that tells a different narrative and gets us to that ordinary moment where black people again can be outside enjoying the outdoors, being strong, beautiful and free, not people who have to be rescued from the hood in order to have some kind of

conversion experience in the outdoors. Because that's been that's been the predominant narrative, right, Like people I'll tell them, yeah, like I'll tell you so here's the narrative, right, it's um And even when I tell people what I do, sometimes their response is like the opposite of what I do. You know, it's like, oh, Ru, it's so great what you're doing for the poor black children that you're you're

you're rescuing a weekend out hiking. Yeah, exactly. And then they're going to become conservationists after that, where they're gonna go home and you know, tell their families and then you know, the whole family's gonna and Michael, Okay, let's sit with that for a second and think about what really happens. What happens is that you have provided everything for this young person. You know worthy no matter what, but you provide everything, the gear, the equipment, the you know,

the where to go, the how to do. You have isolated them from their family, um in delivering this experience. They're just they're out with peers, but they're not with their family. And then they go and they have some

kind of experience that you will absolutely be memorable. And there's a lot of narrative also of people having like these breakdowns and breakthroughs or some kind of you know, evangelical experience in the in the outdoors, and then these kids you know, believe are believed to be changed, um, and then they'll have this this long lifelong value of

protecting and loving the outdoors. And what I see get get actually gets played out is that these kids go home and their families may or may not be interested in what that experience was, and the kid has no way of getting back to that experience without you your organization. UM. And so there's no chance for that repeated experience. And you and I both know that it's not the one time experience. It's the lifelong experience that usually starts in

your home. UM, and it happens again and again and again, where you get to learn lessons and you get to fail, and you get to be successful, and you get the whole range of experience. And that is what creates this passion that's love, this sense of the need to advocate and protect and be a part of that equation. But it's not the one time backpacking trip. And I think

that we missed a really big opportunity. UM. You know, I think as long as we're looking at communities that as as needing to be saved or needing to be rescued, then we are tapping we're not tapping into the full breadth of communities uh empowered selves and that you know, there are people like me, you know, who are professionals, and all the people who are our leaders, of of of our organizations, they're all you know, busy working professionals

of all kinds of backgrounds, and they you know, bring a ordinariness to the potential for who can be an expert in these experiences. And then we're in our communities doing these experiences and so we can do them over and over and over and over again and they not be episodic, you know, and a photo for the newsletter, you know. So that's um so again we're you know, just to kind of get back to your question, I'm so glad you asked about like the you know, the

what do you do? We're really getting to the point where I want that person that feel like they can do they have to do anything, and that they can just be and they can respectfully enjoy the outdoors with whoever they happen to encounter in those experiences before you got here, Ys and I were talking about a thing another thing he had read that you were talking about the birding slash picnicking conundrum. You mentioned how to get

people involved. You have two very different responses. If you have if you set up sort of a day of burning out at X location and like nobody calls you, nobody writes in like no participation, and then you say, well, we're gonna go out to the same location and have a picnic, and that all of a sudden everybody comes because I guess it's just more approachable and you just happen to have along with you you're spotting scope and some binoculars, and you achieve the same. Yeah, the intention

is still met. But like whatever it was, like people just like we're like, it doesn't grab him to go birding. Yeah. Well, first of all, I got to give you crops props for digging into the crates because that, like I that interview I did, like I don't know, like eight years ago probably, so yeah, like went deep into the crates. Yeah, well, I mean and it's still true. I Mean, it's an evergreen um issue where you know people um you kind of pay attention to people and ask them what they want,

right and and people. I'll tell you, the thing that got a lot of people out initially with us is that people just wanted to meet other people. They just want to meet other people with similar interests. And so when you create you know, opportunities for people to connect with people, um, then there's all kinds of magic that can happen. And so it's absolutely true. I love, you know,

watching wildlife. I love watching birds. I don't really consider myself a birder per se um, just because it kind of kind of gets us to a very narrow point in my mind. And I want to yeah, and I just you know, I mean I never cannot notice a bird, let's put it that way. Um. But my you know, tracking a meticulous life list or anything like that, you know,

I can't say that I do. But I think it's really important for people to notice birds also because noticing birds and other wildlife really puts you in tune with the rhythms of of where you are and and and and the health of those places. And I you know, I love going to Lake Merritt In which is the oldest wildlife sanctuary in the country. UM. And it's also

a fine place to have a cookout. And I grew up as a little girl going to places like Lake Marrin where there's wildlife all around us, but not necessarily the focus of why people go there, but you you appreciate it, right, and you know it's important. And there are people indeed who you know, bring the bread crumbs and you know, buy seed and and really engage with

the wildlife there. But what I like to do is exactly that, like find a way that people are are open to getting outside and even like hiking, Like to say that, you know, you want people to go for a hike like that sets up a lot of expectations for people about skill, difficulty, hardship, you know. And so sometimes I'll say, let's go for a stroll, you know, like just even just shifting like how you talk about things opens the door wider for people to feel like, okay,

I can do that. And so when I say okay, let's have you know, a cook out, Um, people show up for that because you know, people love food and people love people and they probably probably get it, and they get it. I can imagine how this will go. Yeah, but if if I called it birding, people might think it's some kind of you know, a very finite educational you know, thing that's happening, or that they have to come in with a certain amount of knowledge or bring

binoculars or whatever. And so by eliminating those things, you know, and getting people to just show up and I have the spotting scope, and I have the bird guides, and I have a chance to talk to people about the migration of these birds and and and also one of the things I love to do without door afro is to talk about just migration histories of black people, as we mentioned earlier, and how we can learn and and and really connect in with the migration of wildlife similar

to the migration of people, and thinking about like, you know, what do you what what what do you need during you know, the times that you are are people have traveled, you know what do they need to be sustained? Um? What do they need to feel safe? And and and talk about also you know those same birds that were around you know, who are who are flying from Alaska

along the Pacific Flyway. Um. So it's a really fun way to connect people into a conversation that's not just about this purely academic exercise, but one that is really about belonging and connecting and noticing. And I've been really thrilled to see the ways that people have really caught on. And and we've got people in our community who who who say they're birders. Um. We we have, um, you know, a really robust number of people who just you know,

I've embraced wildlife observation and engagement. UM. But you've got to meet people where they are. Do you do you ever pitch people on it? Like do you ever encounter someone who's is no one interests man, no interest in nature? And do you didn't like cool? I respect that? Or do you then go like, oh but hear me out? Okay? So the conversation for people usually goes something like like I'll tell people what I do, um, and they'll say, wow,

I don't like camping and I don't like hiking. And I'm like, okay, all right, Well I mean do you, um you like to fish? Well yeah, yeah, you know me and my dad or mean, you know there's a story, you know, there's always going to be like a breakthrough story that you can connect with that relates to something that people are already doing. Another thing that people do it is tailgate. Like if you ask me, like tailgate is like day camp, Like tailgating at a game, Yeah,

that's day camp. I mean if you look at all the equipment that people buy, it's the same equipment that people buy when they're going camping, you know, complete sometimes with a tent, and like you know from the everything like everything is very you know, primitive in those environments

with you know, rarely any running water. Yeah, I mean exactly. So, you know, so getting people to just see the things that they're already doing as outdoors because I think that the other problem we've had is that there has been this representation that there's the right way. There's like there are they're the best ways to be in the outdoors, and then there's ways and to be in the outdoors

that don't really matter as much. And again, I look at how you know, especially busy working families, stressed communities, and the idea that someone can find leisure in an experience like dangling off the side of a mountain is ludicrous, you know. Like, instead, you know, people who have recreational time if they have the ability to take time off because a lot of people work through weekends or they

work in the evening times. Um, what they want to do is probably do a cook out, you know, or maybe you know, connect with you know, some of their friends and go fishing and not do some of these really high adrenaline far away activities. And so that's been a really important part of our work. And when I did a poll early, we had just enough of a sample size asking people like what's in the way for you?

Like how, you know, how can we help solve some of the ways of you know, getting you outdoors if you're not already and m geared equipment was huge, Like people just did they were lost about you know, what do I need or what do I already have that it can be you know, repurposed for outdoor experiences and you know, as you know, quite a lot you already have that you don't have to go and buy, um, where to go? What to do? UM fears and perceptions, fears of not only of course wildlife, but also of

other people not feeling welcome. But the number one reason was time. Yeah, and and and here here's the thing. It wasn't that there's not enough time, but it was the perception that you needed a lot of time in order to get out and so if you can't go to Yosemite for a week, then yeah, it doesn't have right. So so that's what we set out to do, was to help create opportunities for people to get out in

nature in chunks of time. And so we started doing like these like um, you know, these hiking happy hours, you know, where people might spend time like in a bar or you know something after work between you know, work and going home, but instead invite them to go out in nature with us UM creating those opportunities on a weekend that took more no more than two hours from start to finish, so that you still could go and participate in the soccer practice, or take care of grandma,

go to church or whatever. UM. And so you know, we really are meeting people and especially busy working families UM in the point of their need UM in order to open the door to access. And then we can take people along a continuum to do more things, you know, things that take more time. But by then we've we've established trust and we've also established a way for people to feel more comfortable. Do you do you play UM

in your head? Do you ever play a numbers game about UH representation in sort of like the the industry of the outdoors or the nonprofit like the non industry of the outdoors. Do you do you look and think like, man, it would be great if we could get to some level of parody. Or is it more you just interested individual experiences and you're not and you're not using like a metric of totality. Yeah, I think when you start

playing the color by numbers game, it's dangerous. I think, Yeah, I don't, you know, I don't or rather I don't play the color by numbers meaning like we've got to have X number or you know. Again, I go back

to looking like America. Let's let's start there, you know, let's look at let's be proportionate at least right um, by gender, by race, but also really looking at where people live, Like, I don't expect to see a big population represented of of of people who look like me in places where we don't even live, right and so or where you know, when I look at, for example, places near Oakland, where there's like tons of beautiful hiking trails, when you go on those trails, it looks like the

population of people who are there, right, Yeah, and so I expect, you know, where people live and it proves to be true that where people live and where is accessible to people they are. I think it's really um important, however, that the industries that are associated with the outdoors do a better job of representing that reality. Um. And I

think that's what we don't see enough of. And that's when you know, again our our beginnings in working with the outdoor industry years ago, there are very few folks um who look like me who were on those show floors and really talking about representation in this way. And I'm really proud to say that they've come a long way. Um. But again I'm I'm looking for representation that actually feels realistic and represent that actually does represent the realities of

what people do versus it being just a marketing strategy. Yeah, I think that you have a representation. I think question or do I want to know? Like what does it make you feel? Because we noticed I don't know how many years ago, branded we love and use a lot, Mountain House, dehydrated food products familiar and there they're packaging has always had a group of people camping and sort of like historically it was the back that's what the painting that was like. Oh and then it went to

a million years. It was like a backer packer, like in the Pacific Northwest, like a paint but they changed the packaging and all of a sudden, there's a picture of a very diverse looking group of people. I think there's I can't remember exactly, not two men, one woman, yeah, a version of Asian descent, yeah, the black person. Yeah, the man's um black. Right. So when you see that, are you like, great, applause, good for you, or are you like, yeah, you know what I do? I look

at the company's leadership. That's what I look at. That tells me the real story. Who's represented there? Now, who's on your board? This is on your board, Who's who's in the c suite? Because I believe that equity and

representation and starts with design and not with optics. You know, just because you hired a model, you know, to be on the cover of your product doesn't mean that you really stand for And that's one of the reasons why you know, we're really thoughtful about the partners that we have as part of our partnership portfolio, because I really want to know what you're doing when no one's looking, you know, And and I also want to make sure that we have a reciprocal relationship where we can learn

from you and you can learn from us. You know, that's not just the you're gonna pick our brain for diversity, equity and inclusion, because we have so much more to offer than that, you know, we have, you know, just a network of just super brilliant people who come with their own expertise that continue to help you shape outdoor AFRO that is also you know, able to move into

some of these organizations. Like the thing that's really made me so happy and inspired is to see so many people who become outdoor AFRO leaders get awakened to a whole industry of professional opportunity that they didn't even know existed, you know. And so and we're talking about not you know, entry level professionals. We're talking about mid career people who are able to pivot some good education and experience into these fields and and get good jobs and jobs that

have influence. And so I really care a lot about you know, what's the holistic way that a company or a nonprofit organization is showing up. And I know that if you've got folks who are really at the helm of decision making, um then I'll have a lot more confidence in the authenticity of those efforts. Uh. I have a thing in my note. I don't want to read it. I'll tell you what I have. A note that's not

well articulated, says fear of cynicism around inclusion. And what I meant when I wrote that is that I don't like when I'm looking at our own company. Okay, Um, I'm aware in my head, like I'm aware that we've built the company that is equal male, like about female, about mail. It might be a little bit off, but it's like remarkably better than the industries that we're working, Okay, And so I look at that and like, I feel

proud about that. But then I think, and you'd want to someone you're forced into a conversation about this about gender equity. Um, you're forced into a conversation. I don't like the feeling of needing to say, oh no, look, my co CEO is a woman, because they're like, I don't want to, I I run the I don't want to risk making her feel trivialized or making her feel like an emblem or that she's not qualified. Yeah, So it's like it winds up being really heard like I

see it, I acknowledge it. I'm proud of it. But I'm afraid to like start applying numbers to all this ship lest people all of a sudden start looking around the room and being like why am I? Why am I here? Am I here? Because you run around counting all this ship up in your head and you're shooting for some goal and I'm like part of this like master plan, like that what I'm doing here because I thought I was here because I'm king and I on the flip side, how do you like tell me, like

explain to me, like how I deal with that? How do they deal with that? Like? Well, I think the one of the things that challenges us right now, especially in this time, is that people I call thirsty four diversity.

You know, like people just want it just to be because it's emblematic, you know, and and you can and you can tell like when it's not that they feel like they gotta they gotta, Like I don't want to say a gun to their head, but they're like they feel like enormous pressure to be like yeah here I am kicking yeah yeah, And you know, we're really thoughtful, like we can smell being a grant deliverable like a mile away, you know, because yeah, you know, people want

the picture they want you know, they want us to explain grant deliverable. Well, for some not for profit organizations, you know there they have mandates through their funding streams to commit to diversity, equity and inclusion. Right, and that might mean that might mean that you need to make sure that your programs have representation, outreach, actual engagement. You know of certain demographics and there are folks who reach

out to us routinely. You know, we want to partner with you and for us, you know, partnership means a few different things, right. Partner may mean like you've got something already baked in you just want to invite us to be a part of that thing that we didn't necessarily have a part in creating, but we're invited. And then the photo gets snapped and it looks like it's diverse. Right, But it wasn't really thought partnership involved. It was just

kind of more of an optical exercise. Another version of partnership is when you know, to or more groups get together and think about something that makes sense for them all to participate in, and that feels a lot better. And then the third is just outright sponsorship, like we you know, we love what you're doing. We want to give you support to keep moving in the direction that you're moving in. And so I think, no, no optics.

You know that people really want to support what you're doing and don't necessarily need to center themselves visually in in um in a way that validates its success. So I think to your question, though, I think it always boils down the relationships right and people even online, And I know you've experiences to like people know when you're authentic and when you're not. And so I really want to encourage us all to get in better relationship with

each other. You know, I feel thankful like I'm on a board right now with the Wilderness Society, and we've been in relationship with each other for over a decade. And it started with them just seeing me, seeing my work and and using their platforms to share what I was already doing. They didn't co opt it. They were like, hey, this is what she's doing. We want to recognize her all the way to you know, helping us with some

office space in DC. And then you know, now I'm on their governing council but it was like a long time for me to feel like and I get asked to join boards all the time. Yeah, you can tell that you're on the normal path to a board member, Yeah right now, not just someone there's a courtship, there is. And so I think that the same thing is has to be true in our workplaces where we really need

to get different sectors in the same room together. And I'm one of the goals that I have for out draft row you know, in this you know conversation obviously is it's a little piece of this, but we have to get out of the the same conversations with the same people and mix things up and get into other sectors where they may be a little further along in

some of these areas that we care about. But also it gives us some exposure to different ideas and and and really helps us to do a better job of network we weaving and be able to have access to other resources that we wouldn't otherwise be able to. It's like I feel at times, you know, that in celerity makes it feels like a pond that's over fished, right, It's just like it's it's it's people going back to

the same people the same conversations. It's the same people on the same panel discussions, you know, And I'm just like, I'm done. I want to make new friends. I want to go to different places. I want to learn how other uh people in sectors are doing things and and take those new ideas back home and create, you know, a sense of real innovation. Do you feel like you get UH when you talk about the pond being over fished? Do you feel like you get a lot of calls

that come from superficial internet searches. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I'm sure that we probably pop up on the first page of you know, putting in just a few select keywords UM. And I think it takes people a while to get to know who we are in the nuanced way that we show up. That UM, you know informs the best partnerships, you know, and and and good partnerships they they just have for us. They've taken time. We have a lot of people right now who are

coming on board, you know. And I'm not deducting points for timing, you know, by any means, because I think, you know, we got to start someplace. But I do want people to know that we're not interested in just getting a check, you know, we're not interested in you know, being a social media mentioned or putting them on our

social media. They were really looking for people who we can go out for a beer with and talk about stuff and really get to know and and really innovate and think about, you know, new ways of addressing old problems.

And and again it really comes down to relationships. And I always say that change only happen at the speed of relationships, you know, So all of all the folks who are out here trying to you know, rush kids and communities to the altar of conservation, you know, in a in a single grant year or a single program, are just not not going to get it right. UM. And I think we've got to really really respect that we're you know, we're people connecting to people, people connecting

with places. And the more we understand about people and places, UM, and take the time to really get to know those places, then we'll land in a really solid place where we can build from there. Room map, How can people find you outdoor afro across all the platforms, UM, I love to hear from people, love to hear how we can be in relationship with each other I'm pretty confident. Um, a lot of people be real annoyed that they had to listen to us to have a difficult conversation. They

don't want that. But then a lot of people will, uh hopefully a lot of people reach out to you. Well, I think a lot of people are gonna gonna want to know what they can do more than just reaching out. And what would you say if I was just like, you know, I'd be really interested in doing something with outdoor Afro. Yeah. I think you know, we're in a really interesting time in our country right now where people are they're wanting to find like where the pathways, the lanes,

um that feel relevant to them. Um. You know, so obviously people in the outdoor spaces you know, are coming to us versus from other industries. Um. But I just would invite people to start with checking us out and and really getting to know Outdoor Afro online before coming to us with this thing that they already have baked

in that they want us to do with them. Um. I think the people who take the time to get to know because we're not going anywhere, you know, there's no like you know, deadline here for people to connect with us. So take the time for this all goes I got to get in before this goes away, right all right, I mean we're not going anywhere. We're solid. We've been around for ten years. That's an interesting point,

you know. And uh and you know, for me, it's been really important to build a professional organization that is responsive to people who want to connect with us. We've got a great team of folks who we can connect them with. So if it's a program, you know, I've got a great program director who could you get into conversation with people and find out if there's something of mutual benefit there. Um, people can always donate to us.

I mean, we're not for profit organization and we need resources to maintain that high level of professional delivery that we do for everyone. And then we also invite people to get outside with us. You know. I always like to say that you don't have to have an AFRO to be a part of out dur Afro. So if you believe it felt like there's going to be a stupid question, and I've made that a goal of my life to you know, not think that anymore and just

go ahead and ask. But that was I was going to ask, like do you have to have an AFRO to join. No, no, I mean we we really welcome everybody who believes in what we're doing. Right, So if you believe in what we're doing and you want to be a part of that, you know, we welcome it. So if you were having an event like me and Jana showed up, you should you have you you'd have

a ball and we want to get kicked out. Oh god, no, no, no, no no no. I mean you know, here's the thing about Outdoor AFRO that's been great, you know, and that is specificity has been universal. We could have been called people of color and the outdoors and that's like everybody and nobody, and sometimes sometimes in our reach to try and include everybody and everything, we we can get lost

in that. And I because we have been so focused in our network, outreach and engagement that people can see exactly where we are on a map in their relationship, you know, either close or further away from it, but they know, you know, there's a definite dot on the map. And that kind of specificity I have found has made our message feel more accessible and universal to more people.

And because people get that, people sometimes choose to come out with us and sometimes they say, you know what, you guys need to have some space to work some stuff out, and I don't have to center myself in those spaces. But as far as like the welcoming piece, you know, when we have our our annual training, you

know that obviously comes up. You know, people want to know, um, you know, if if you know they need to be a certain way or and and we always say that everyone is welcome, and um, you know, we have multiracial families and all kinds of folks you know, who bring you know, all kinds of identities and geographies and economic classes. So we're we're really happy to be an open door for people who are behind what we're doing. Well, thank you for joining us, Thank you for having me. I

hope some people come find you. Yeah, I'm sure, and I hope some people come find you. You're gonna You're gonna fish tomorrow. I'm looking forward to that. Okay, We're gonna eat fish tonight. I'm loving that idea. What kind of fish do you want to know? What am I missing? Well from? From from my trip for dost Bolt season two Dose Boats, I brought home a bunch of lake trout flats. Holy ship. That was good Man mostly smoking them. I was I wasn't gonna smoke them, but then we

fell in love with eating them grilled. I got one left and then I put some turkey wild turkey breast and the brine. And then when I have people over hours cooking ms because I don't have to just put them in the oven and forget about them. Nice. Yeah, I think it's nice, but it's just lazy. Now it works. And I brought you guys something to Yeah. I brought you some cherry jam that I made last month. So so if you have maybe some ice cream or something. Yeah, my kids will be into it. Okay, I will see

you later. You will, Broughty will see you tomorrow. Thank you to it. Thank you bye,