Ep. 181: Bibles and Bulls

a conversational show. Cutting the Distance is an educational show where Remy walks you through situations and scenarios from his life and gives you like actionable, usable information, instruction, intelligence, inspiration about how to become a better hunter. And there's no one more suited to give you this information than Remy Warren. So go find it. Cutting the Sin's the same places you can find the Meat Eater podcast. Give it a listen, give it a review. Caughting the Distance

with Remy Warren. This is the me Eater podcast coming at you, shirtless, severely, voge bitten in my case, underwear listening un podcast. You can't predict anything presented by on x Hunt Creators are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor where you stand with on x Okay you on Phil Wild Phil? Why the wild Phil? I don't know because I'm used to calling people named Bill wild Bill, and then I thought I'd call him

wild Phil. But wild Phil doesn't sound good. I like it. Yeah, I think you just try it out for four or five months, see what happens. I was telling them, if your name's Film, probably not with too wild. But if your name's Bill, that can go any direction. Man, there's some wild Phils out there, Wild Phil, Wild Phil, Hiccock, Wild Phil Cody, Big Phil Cody. Anyway, Wild Phil. Thank

you Phil. Uh, Jason Commut, introduce yourself real quick, and then I got a quick question for you, Jason Phelps the Pholps game Calls, and I have your partner, Uh, Dirk Durham with Phelps Game Calls. Good job, guys. If you had to rate your patients on a like a sliding scale of one to ten, what would it? Because it's gonna We've got a couple of things we've gotta do here to really so you're just gonna be antis all get out. Yeah, like it's not good. You're an

impatient person. Yeah, your whole life. You've known this well. The reason I asked, um, you got a couple of things to top about. We got like, like we had a handful of nipple like nipple ripping nipple stories coming in lately. Yeah, a new one came in. You can't pass them by. No, a new one came in, Um, s guy says, I thought you'd be interested in this.

He says that they were out. They were in Ontario, Canada, a bunch of people swimming in the water, A bunch of guys, a bunch of girls, and they're out swimming twenty ft of water, and all of a sudden, one of this guy's buddies accuses him of giving him a purple nipple, which is when you pinch someone's nipple apparently and twisted real hard, which we call a titty twister. Purple nerple. That's what I've been told, purple nerple, purple nerpal Really you too, yes, he say it is again,

Let me double check. I mean the titty twister is I would say more common, but purple nerples, right, nerple, purple nerple, He says, his body started, Oh, I'm sorry he does call it the purple nerple? Hell? Is that a t twister? Basically? Yeah, So he has a buddy said, hey, stop giving me a titty twister. He's like, I didn't give you titty twister. And they inspect the nipple and it's been bit by a northern pike. What yeah, I

had little teeny pin prick holes. Then later they're sitting around recounting this story and there was an aunt that um, he describes her as a fairly attractive aunt. Um. I thought it was interesting that he added that, because I feel like if you he wanted to set the scene, I feel like it's okay to be like I thought about this this morning. Um, I feel that it's okay to be attracted to an aunt or uncle, but you do not act on it or tell the aunt and uncle agreed, Sure, go for it. Do you know what

I mean? Like, it seems like it's it's inexcusable. Would you agree with that? Phelps? No, you think it's inexcusable for a young lad to find his aunt. So it's got to be the family removed, so it can't be like I said, no, I didn't say act on it. I said, you cannot act on it. I don't even know that you would tell anyone about it in your family. I think it'd be okay to tell friends. Okay, yeah,

that's acceptable. Okay, So today I have a good looking aunt to be attracted to ones aunt or uncle, blood aunt. That's what I was saying. It's like the married end of the family and not okay, but your mom's sister, you're you're I'm talking. I'm talking about like, I'm not talking about telling them or acting on it or marrying them.

It's it's okay to say that they're good looking. Yeah, if someone well, I don't want to explore all the options, but there are some familial connections that if someone has just said that they had a fairly attractive X, like I had a you know, fairly attractive father, I would be like, that's you know, not I'd keep that yourself. But to say you have a fairly attractive aunt, I

know what you noticed it. I noticed it. That was interesting thing to bring up, and I didn't want to pass judgment, and I'm like, that's fine in this context. The aunt go ahead. In this context. I think he's letting the reader feel better about envisioning this scene that you're going to talk about. Now. He's coloring the scene

because of what he says happened. That the aunt divulges to the boys that that has happened to her too, out swimming in the lake, which then revealed to them that this aunt that they find attractive slims nude in the lake. And he just wanted to throw it into the repertoire of it's okay to be thinking about I encourage you to think about my aunt swimming nude in the lake because she's an attractive gal. I think he's like, let me paint the picture for you. Right. Uh, there's

my aunt, just smoke and hot right in you. That's now, he said, he said, fairly attractive. So you know, in montainio's supposed to paint posts like defense poles, trees, whatever. Orange means that don't come in here in Texas. This this is very un Texas. I feel in Texas you use purple. Purple paint means don't come in my land. And he said that there's he was in a hardware store. A listener rolled in. He's in a hardware store, and they have cans of paint labeled no hunting purple, which

he found offensive. He said, why not just call it no trespassing purple? Yeah? Very Have they done some sort of study that says, like purple paint lasts longer in the hot Texas sun, or something doesn't fade as fast no hunting purple like a new shade he describes as a new shade of purple. Did he feel like it was like an anti hunting He thought they'd sell a hell of a lot more in Texas. They called it no trespassing purple. Right, I don't know why I thought

that was interesting. Now that's it. Now that I'm talking about it doesn't seem as interesting as I thought it was. Do you find that interesting? Jason? Yeah, I don't get offended that easy though. It just is what it is. I mean, maybe you can trespass, you just don't want you to hunt. There is there is there a places you can get on and not hunt, but you can be on their property. Or is it truly no trespassing purple? I don't know he took offense to it. I think

it's no trespassing purple. Uh? Do I talk about this that this guy uh that the guy in Kentucky was saying that, um, they were doing some kind of study where they had collar deer and people were supposed to feel free to shoot, like because they're doing mortality, so like a hunter would be like if you see a collar they're saying to hunters, if you see a collar deer and you would normally shoot it, go ahead and

shoot it. Um, And they were He found that there's some guys that had some resistance to do I talk about this shooting the collar dear because of I don't know. We've talked a lot about shooting collar dear, but I

don't know if we've covered this specific. He multiple individuals that you definitely, if you shoot a collar deer, you need to grind all of the meat because they also plant micro chips in the deer and if you don't grind all the meat and destroy the micro trips, they will then track you for a while because you will in take the meat and the microchip will then live inside of you. This is the wildlife biologist wrote us in about this. But you guys, take nice bowl comes

strolling through, you got a collar on his neck. You think twice about it or just normal normal as can be. Well, I'm shooting it. I wouldn't be able to do it. It just who would seem we talked about this, it would seem it would seem corrupted to me. But a band of duck as cool as hell, like tag bears no collar? Now collar, I wouldn't want to it. I'm shooting it. Steve thinks that because some other man's hands have been on the animal prior to his, that there

is some sort of corruption has occurred. Contained no longer, here is the driven snow. I would shoot it for sure. A collar? Would you? Then? Would you then take photos of you with the collared animal? Or did you caught the collar off? No, I'd take a photo of the collar and then start wearing the collar, and your in your caps would be not the first guy to handle this. I just that's like I see it, his uh meet in the freezer. The caption could also read, look at

this science at work? All right, so let's very last day to hunt. You've been grinding up for fourteen days in the color. When walks by at six o'clock at night, last day, change your mind. No, I'm not that good of an elkhunner yet, so if that thing came into me that I see that as maybe my only opportunity

this season. In regards to the micro chip eating the micro chip, Yeah, the the data is like once you get a mortality signal, which all immortality signal is is when something hasn't moved for a period of time depending on the species. Like, once they get that, then you know kind of they want to go retrieve the thing.

It's you know, for us, it's gonna end up. You know, let's say you're out hunting for fourteen days and you ate that thing early on in the hunt, It's gonna end up in a pit toilet somewhere, right, So I don't I don't think you gotta worry about being tracked as long as you're a regular fella. Like so you're saying, if you're a Kentuckian, Yeah, and you shoot a collar, dear, and and choose to eat hole muscle meat and not ground and do ingest this tracking chip, and you're worry

about government interference in your life, you will eventually pass it. Yes, you will scat it out, and you will then be free of the government following you around. Yes, you will have led them to the Flying J truck stop. We heard a good story from I think it's Robert Abernathy told us the story one time where they had some turkeys and they had those little tracking they can glue

these temporary I saw that in Tennessee. They can glue these temporary chips up into their UH feathers and all the feathers out, get a bare patch of skin and then glue. Anyways, he they one day got a signal from one of their turkeys that he was headed down the highway hi rate of speed, Hi rate of speed.

And I think that the story. I think the way the story goes is that it must be the person went to plug the turkey or skin it and realized what it had on it, because when they finally went there and found the dang thing it was, I think he said it was like buried under a woodpile or something, or stuffed under a woodpile. But the guy realized that the go of was coming. Yeah, the guy poached a

tracking device turkey. Remember a long time ago when we did that episode with Bracy Hill, our friend Bracy Hill, and it was about hunting, like UH discussions about hunting in the Bible. Um, the guy wrote in curious why we didn't include why we didn't get into this quote. There's a quote in the Bible. It's a Proverbs twelve that says the lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt. Which

is a good quote. And I was looking at up try to figure out where it came from, what it meant. And you know how, there's all kinds of different versions. There's all the different versions of the Bible. If you look at all the different versions of the Bible, that quote means a thousand different things, like so, the lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feet on

the riches of the hunt. That's like the new International version, the New Living translation, lazy people don't even cook the game they catch, but the diligent make use of everything they find. And then the English standard version, whoever is slothful will not roast his game, but the diligent man will get precious wealth. Uh, the Brillon lazy man does not roast his game, but a diligent man prizes his possession.

King James, the slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting, but the substance of a diligent man is precious. Think about all that. It's complicated. It's complicated. It's like a game at telephone about hunting. Uh. Yeah, it's interestingly the transition from like, well, meat, it's not quite valuable enough, so we're gonna make it and change that word riches or substance. Aren't those two versions? Yeah? Uh? Two last quick things. No, I'm gonna get to this

stuff later. One last quick thing. Me and Seth. You're still good, Jason, you get aunties all get out. I'm good. I can listen to stories. Uh. Me and South is starting playing out our our winter trap line. So anyone that had this is a public service announcement, I'm gonna try to spend it like I'm gonna spin it like instead of them doing us a favor, we'll spend it like we're doing them a favor. Oh, we're definitely doing

them a favor. So anyone um who's got nuisance beaver muskrat problems and they'd like to get him taken care of, yeah, send it. Go on, go on to the meat Eater dot com and send us an email and you can just make the subject line up beavers with a capital with an exclamation point, ye, and then we'll feel them and well we'll range as far as big timber. Yeah, for news beavers, nuisance muskrats. Yeah, we don't want to

go across the state, but yeah, fairly local. Good beaver removal service, Free beaver removal service for nuisance beavers southwest Montana. And uh, seth, do we when we find a gate close, how do we leave it? We leave it close? And we find a gate open, how do we uh leave it? Um? Well, if it's supposed to be closed, we'll close it. If it's if it's supposed to be open, well, we'll keep

it the way it is. Let's say a landowner says to us Steth, he says, you boways, go ahead and catch all them beavers, but don't don't let me catch you shooting my elk. What would we shoot those out? We would not shoot the elk, No, sir, We're just there for beavers. If he said, don't drive in my field once wet, would we drive on that field? Seth? Nope, we'd be doing a lot of walking. Reliable conscientious beaver removal, respectful,

respectful beaver removal services. Um, and if they just wanted to drop him off here at the office in Bozeman, Montana, you guys would say, no, no, no, that's might want to flash him. No. I spent many years doing that, and I'd rather just catch him myself. Yeah, you guys will do We talk about this ever before, used to flesh hides for a fur buyer. We might have I

don't know. I don't know. You guys hit it hard enough because I threw that picture you guys working way up on the Instagram and folks right like that guy know what he's doing. Its wearing flip flops. I called the flip flop flasher man. People were very interested in me wearing flip flops names he's uh, he's dp double punch or the flip flop flasher. Uh, where's the double punch come from? He doesn't like it. It's a long story that he doesn't like. Um. What was I gonna

tell you to say about seth? Oh? Yeah? So when you sell fur, like like, if we just want our we want our own furs for hats and mittens and pillows and queen size comforters. But um, I'm gonna make a California king. That's why I'm trying to solicit. Uh. Does that mean a real big king sized bed California. Yes, I'm fixing to make a California king sized comforter out of beaver pelts. That's why we need a lot of dem nuisance beavers. Uh. But when you sell fur, you

can sell it three ways. Guys will sell it in the round, which is that's just the animal that's just selling like a raccoon to a fur buyer. You can sell it green, which is skinned and not fleshed and dried. You could sell it flesh and not dried, but no one in the right mind would ever do that. No. Or you can sell it ready to roll, flesh and dried. Seth used to have a job. Or he would go after high school down to the fur buyer and he

would skin. Would you skin or just flesh? Skin, flash and put them up skin flesh and put up raccoons and some beavers, muskrats, fox, coyote, mink. Uh, pretty much anything that was legal to trap at that point in time. Was that an hourly paying job or per animal? Oh, it's per animal. Would you make fleshing the raccoon hide? I don't remember. It's like it was maybe like four or five bucks to skin it, four or five bucks

to flesh it, but there's no money left over. I guess in those days the prices are pretty good on raccoons. Then I was in high school too, so like just some extra money, like like I wasn't, but he's I'm saying, right, if the markets got low enough, I wonder if your pay goes down, and never seemed to go down. I used to peel logs for a log home builder, and it was thirty five cents a foot. I don't know what it is nowadays, but they paid you thirty five

cents per foot to peel logs. But I have a hard time picture that they're going to give you eight bucks the skin and flesh and a raccoon. Are you lying to us? No, that's I mean because I was just trying to build us. I was just trying to build up our credibility. I had a lot of those jobs that same time frame, and I often found it was how you could take advantage of a high school kid, because I'd bust there'd be good little manual for X amount, and then I'd be like, yeah, I did double that,

so that's thirty bucks instead of fifteen bucks. And they'd be like, whoa what, Well, I didn't really want to pay that. I'd be like, okay, that sounds for you know my buddy Tommy Edson, Um you know him. N He one time he knew this old guy that he was along like Tommy was like his grandma lived along to Columbia and some little guy had dug a big pond on his property wanted to stock with bullheads. Lord knows why, but that's what you wanted to stock him with.

And he told tom He's like, I'll give you a dolerable head. Not know when he's getting himself into so he like set himself to work. He says, when it comes time for delivery, he likes his mob drives him over, you know, and she pops the trunk. He's got all these buckets in there. And the guy looks in there and he's got he kinda has Oh. He's like, yeah, I'll give you a hundred bucks for the whole thing. Wow, he had over a hundred. I think it was a

dumb everybody said. The guy was just like, well, I didn't really mean that may exactly all right, Jason Belts where we at hit him any No, I want to do this one. Who invented the diaphragm call? We're just talking about that. I think we we not know what. Well, there's there's two guys. I think it's Wayne Carlton Ben the diaphragm well not the diaphragm so, I mean on the OLK call side. He basically took a turkey call

and rolled it into the OLT calls. I don't know, Um, the history on who invented like the very first diaphragm call for turkeys, um or any other game is that maybe unknowable? Uh yeah, I don't know if anybody's because Wayne and Larry Jones on the OLK call side, but there were turkey calls before that, which maybe Wayne was even involved in a little bit. What year was that going on? I remember my yeah, I remember my my half brother Frank was an out guide in Colorado and

they used to use PDC pipe and turkey calls. And now when people were just like it was like a new thing, you know. Yeah, I mean in the history of hunting compared like the history of game calls, it's like it's very very new. Still game calls very very short timeline and only forty fifty years. I mean they've been using old you know, grass and in predator calls and stuff like that. But as far was like the market, um,

fairly fairly new. The I got sent a bunch of pictures from this museum in France, all these very intricate, very very old bird calls, like ranging from you know, songbirds with which they're big on eating all the way through ducks and geese. But these things like look like accordions or like crazy smoking apparatus. I had many guesses before I got to the correct Oh you you didn't look at immediately be like that's some kind of game call. No, No,

they're very intricate. I'll dig up those pictures here at some point. And uh, when we were hanging around down in South America, when they try to call in the tape here, they still use a blade of grass, which is kind of a read right, just it's all about that vibration of that material, so anything will work. So who were talking about the Tell everyone about how Elkolin came into being a thing. I mean, how well is

it known? Like now, how did it start? Back? Talk about like the late seventies early eighties whatever, when people started messing around with the idea that you calling out or bugle in elk you know. Yeah, So I mean I think it's just you know, as a hunter and trying to take advantage of the seasons we were giving. Like somebody just realized, hey, these things are rutting there and you know, trying to imitate them. And so I think it was just natural. You know, Wayne Carlton, you

might know the story better that um. You know, he was able to key run on a turkey call, which we build some of those calls for um, and just basically realize that, hey, I sound like an ELK went out and you know, put it to work in September and realize, hey, we can call these things in pretty effectively. Do a do a keky run for everyone? Oh you always to do my mouth? No, no, hell no, I'll do what A call the whole sack of him. It's a it's an ima immature immature, our immature turkey call.

And then they it's basically a young, a young immature turkey trying to to yell. Yeah. Guys that hunt turkeys with dogs, right, Um, don't they when they when they go on the fall, and you scatter up the whole crew, scatter up a flock and then they'll kind of get in a central location to try to start calling the flock back together. A lot of yeah, a lot of

kikiS in the fall. Yeah, that's that's what that's I've never done that, but that's I think that's the call they use, that long drawn out he helps and stuff. But yeah, it just and so that we design a turkey call to do that kiki and it's very very similar to a cow call um, you know when we get when we get as was like, hey, I'm a turkey callor never touching elk call, and Tim like, hey, can you keeky run on some double and triple reads and they said yeah. I'm like, well you're gonna be.

You hit the ground running on calls, you'll be able to figure it out real quick. So when you make a when you make a call for that turkey sound, it's just a single read. It's a it's usually a triple was like a ghost cut. So you're trying to remove you don't want any overhanging in the middle. You want that middle to be clean so you can get those high pitched key run so it's uses like a ghost cut or or a straight read. Hey, real quick, gunny, explain to explained to these boys, the um are you

looking at me like that? I'm just trying to prepare my mind for what's coming at me. Explained to these boys. The guys upcut, oh um, the guys that cut. I sent pictures of the guys up cut to Jason. But it's basically like a small you shaped cut out of one side, and then within that you shape, there's two little micro slits, and then at the opposite end of the call there's a micro slit, and then from there he starts there and then to dial in the diaphragm.

He just slowly shaves like the fleeting edge of the top read. And as that as you find where you wanted to be, you stopped. You you just you stop clipping little edges off, you know, the front edge off of that call. I don't, I don't. I don't want to criticize if I feel like folks at home would have no idea what you're talking about. Okay, I can go all the way back to you know why it's it's largely my fault. Can you explain what it explain

a diaphragm call the people. I mean they can hopefully they can just pick up their phone and type in like diaphragm alcohol. Yeah. So we basically have three parts. We have a piece of tape. We have an aluminum frame. We have latex, whether it's single, double, triple stack. It looks like a filled in horse shoe. Yep, yep, you gotta you put this little piece in your mouth that's maybe inch and a half wide, inch deep and um.

That latex and whatever fashion it is, vibrates um. As you blow air across that, you get a seal with that tape. All the air that comes out of your diaphragm your chest will go across that latex and it vibrates um. And it's that vibration that gives us a different sounds. So you know how we have how we stretch the call, the thickness of the latex, the cuts, the overhangs, all that effects that sound. We get out of that call and you can put one piece of

latex three four three. I mean you could use the latex from a rubber right. Yeah. We we have used condoms on when when the prophylactics and shorts supply, So a lot of your good turkey calls really sendles out to folks. We we have, Uh, if you go, if you were to go look at my call Ben, I've got like tons of rolled up condoms, like you know, there's no no coding on them, but they're just basically robbed condoms that we can cut up and get squares

out of and use to make calls. And when you go down and buy all those at the drug store, no no, no, no, we're like, oh, you know, just making some game calls. Factory direct the coming big giant bags. So it's the same latex. Yeah, yeah, I mean for the most part, it's it's one of the types we can use. Can you use latex gloves Latex that's too thick? Usually that's usually like five six mill Everything we use

is like in the four thousands. The Max will use like five thousands latex was really thin, like dental grade latex. And when you say tape, the body of it's made out of tape. Yep, tape. It's it's really gaffer's tape. Everything that we use on our calls is basically just the colored gaffer's tape. We had everything in house then sets taping. Where do you get the frames from? You said, you have a manufactured design and then we have a progressive die. So it takes like four stages. You know.

The first stage it'll it'll cut to cut the center out, the second stage will shape the frame, third will cut the perimeter, and then um, it spits into a little bucket. So the thing builds like you do that in house. No, we don't do that in house. That we outsourced that. So that's one of those things. It's just it's two time consuming and it's it's expensive to do in house. So are you guys like stamping the frame out of like aluminum or does that come yep, that's just um

we we specify the thickness we played with that. Um we apply adhesive backers, so there's actually adhesive on the inside of that clamshell. And then it's just a little It starts its life as a strip that's as you know, as white as it runs through that progressive die and and punches it out in like four stages are normal our Turkey call frames that don't have like the amp dome on the top. It's only like a three stage

progressive die. So it's just Um, you know there's guys that are a lot you know, even as an engineer, there's guys that are tolling engineers. They'll just they'll look at our drawing and say, oh, this is the most efficient way to build this part. So what we're talking about is when you make one of these calls, you stretch the you stretch the elastic, or stretch the latex, and then there's all kinds of manipulations. You can do the latex, cutting little shapes and do them whatnot. And

that's always done on the top read. Correct. You can do it on the bottom read, but it doesn't have any effect. I mean, you can cut the heck out of the bottom read, but it's that top read that has the overhanging material that vibrates because you're pushing air basically from the bottom to the top. Those top little fingers or any of the overhanging material is what's vibrating, giving you that rasp on a turkey call. We're on

an elk call. You see that. We usually always have a leading edges straight and that's when we can get those clean, more elk like sounds. We don't want anything overhanging. Um, you want to rasp old. I mean, yeah, I'm on the out call side. Will just do it with their voice or you know, throw or whatever. So our body, UM likes to. I don't want to. I'm not gonna. I don't want to insult your business. Maybe even encourages our body is so particular. Our buddy guys Uck is

so particular. He's been on this show. He calls turkeys. He a lot of times. He used to be a competitive no call caller, this mouth mouth calling caller. But he's particular. So he likes to get one that's not been cut because he likes to make his own little cuts in it with fly tie and scissors. Um, do you do you sell stuff for that purpose? Do you have a lot of people that like to do that

that are so finicky? We don't, I think, I mean, and that's what It's unfortunate that, Um, you know, we're trying to design these and build him for the masses, and so I think, you know, guy sounds like he might be like a one per center, Like nobody wants they want to be able to open this. Yeah, call all the package and be ready to roll. But when

you here's what I'm trying to drive at so. Then Yanni explained that he talked about what he does with his scissors again, like how he cuts that little he

cuts that latex piece. Yeah, he definitely had. There was a set of steps to make sure, like he would pull it one direction, cut it and that would make the little U and get in there, make two little cuts within the U. This is all on the top read, and you'd go to the far end of that piece of a text, cut a little slit when I'm talking little, it's like micro sixteenth of an inch probably, and then shave like a sixteenth of the nich off the overhanging edge.

And then as he called on it, if it was too raspy, he would back off and keep cutting and shorten that top read until he got the sound. He like, I need to put my reading glasses on just to think about him in there doing that, which all makes sense. I mean, the more overhanging material, the raspier then so the more you can, you know, cut that back. It's just we try to get you know, when we do all of our cutting, we're trying to get the way there.

That's you know, I hate to say the word good enough when we're trying to build really good calls, but you know, we get there. The thought call is good enough for guys that pull out the box. And I wouldn't trustcent of people taking scissors to one of our calls because they're gonna screwed it up in some forms. Oh yeah, I don't have Yeah. He's also told me to keep minding. He made three of them for me and told me keeping the frieze fridging freezers by far

the best. Yeah, freezer freezer, get him dry and then throw them in the freezer, saying with your spear gun bands? Is that right? I hang mine in the garage. We're supposed to keep a spear gun band in the freezer? Huh? All right, we have a little area my freezers full of calls and spear gun bands. That was a common question. We had a lot we we asked for questions um for this podcast about ELK calls and calling and whatnot, and a lot of people ask like how long do

they last? What's the and what's the best storage? Can we can we hold that of mix? I still need to put this one idea to bed, then you can

pick that up. When you saw the guy's upcut, were you like I've seen that a thousand times that any ship or did you look at it and be like, huh no, we we make a corner cut call that has a real them were cut now where he takes it the next level when he's putting those little micro cuts and he's he's releasing tension in the upper read to pull that tune in the where he wanted you. Just like I said, we've seen that cut. It makes

sense on why it works the way it does. But um, we just we do a corner cutting and we don't put any of micro cuts in and I believe a corner cut right. What he liked about it is that he feels that I think that you can get raspy on one side of it and then blow on the other side of it and get that clean sound that would be able to do a key key run exactly.

And that's why the combo cuts the most popular tricky call cut because you have you have the triangle and the overhanging on the left side, and then you have like a clear space on the right side, and so you can direct air at different directions on the call and clean it up or out rasp Are you serious you're doing that? Oh yeah, and and so channeling the left, right, left, right, yeah. So. And I'm I'm not even a tricky call nerd compared

to some of these guys. Some of these guys will like, I'll get an email like, hey, I'm a right I'm a right right side blower. I'm like, um, okay, you know, I'm like, well, can't you just move there to the other side, because because we usually cut, like our combo cut always put the the V and the triangle on one side of the call. He's like, can you build that call for me in reverse? Well can't? Can't you just blow the other way? You know? But some of

these guys are that particular. They're they're nuts. I'm just dead center center man, Like, is it just showing cow right now where you open your mouth? No, Like, they're directing either the most of the air here on the left right side of the diaphragm or the left side of the diaphragm. And if you had the overhanging material on this side and you directed it to the right side, you'd have cleaner sound. Or if you directed it at the cut and you overhang material, you'd pick up more

of that rasp. Maybe I do that stuff, but I sure don't think about it. That's that's next level Turkey column. Yeah, I'm gonna get a shirt. If your buddy guys ut would to using other Turkey techniques then calling you probably wouldn't have to mess around with any of that stuff, such as decoys and fans and things like that. He doesn't like those things, so he doesn't want to know. He was impressed by my custom Turkey fan Guy. Oh is that? Oh? Sorry, I scream, no, this guy is

named Guy. It was just confused the hell out of my kids name met him, like what's his name? It's like his name is Guy, and what's that guy's name? Um? He doesn't believe. He doesn't like to use decoys. Nope, but he did like my fan that I made. He liked how creative and inventive it was. Remember that. Um okay, and I'll go into what you're going. My my fan proved his reasoning for not using decoys. He'd rather mess up with the calls or something else that he did

as opposed to having the decoy mess it up. And I'm like, no, but this fan works every single time. And so I went and sat down where we knew golver was coming through in the afternoons, and I saw the gobbler comment. And as soon as the Goldler got within range of seeing that decoy picked up his head. He looked at it, and he turned around once, looked at it, turned around again, looked at it, and then turned around the third time and walked away. The more yeah,

the more I look at yours what's his name? Oh, you had a few names, dirty Harry, slim shade, the shady, the more incredulous I get. It just is like, were you incredulous about how many turkeys came running to him? But the more I look at him, the more I could see that some turkeys will be like what and you had that? I thought you had that problem in Wisconsin. No, that's what I heard, the slim shade he was scaring

him away. No, the only bird that he scared away was that one in Michigan that like guys like prophetic prophetically said that it would and then it did. All right, go on with what you're going on about. Uh, we're gonna talk about storage and length of a lifetime of a call. Speak to that you know they're during use like practice, I would say, you know, six months a year out of them, no problem. Turkey calls, especially flat turkey called double triple reads, you're gonna get you know,

years out of them. Um, it's just the way they're design and constructed. Now like our our ELK calls the ant frames, the way we stretch out latex is a lot looser so that they're more user friendly. Um, you know, you get six months to a year out of it. But I say during hunting season, you're probably switching out diaphragms once every three days. Um, if you're being a lot seriously, Yeah, it's just the I mean, because so you make the amp frame that's meant for people that

suck at calling. No, I mean we all use them too. It makes our our job really easy. It's they make the right tone. But but the one downside is you stretch them so loose, the latex fairly loose in order to get that ease of use that you will tend to you know, blow them out after three days. And it's not necessarily blow them out. The diaphragm just gets orchard when it's in your mouth all day. That's really the driving factor on wearing that thing down fast versus

when you're practicing at home. You know, you picked off the counter, blowing up for ten minutes, throwback on the counter and it gets a chance to dry out. Where when you're out cutting, you typically have that thing, you know, stuff in your cheek for hours on end, and that's really what starts to tear that thing apart, just being wet all the time. Guys Luck warned us against eating um buffalo squirrel legs and stuff like that and then using your call. Do you believe that, like just specifically

buffalo squirrel spicy spicy food. I'm more he says it all weak in the latex. I'm more worried about um sugar sticking everything together, like you know, somebody taking especially like the external cow calls. But all this stuff, you if there's multiple layers. You know, you drinking like a gatorade and then you go blow in the car right away, Well now you got sugar and every crack and everything

sticking and then yeah, yeah, so is that right? I never thought of that sugary stuff, especially on the externals for sure, Like that makes us there's a mile our reads stick up, and so you know, just with out some water before you go crank on a call. How do you know one is no good anymore? It doesn't sound good anymore for us. It just starts to get dead. Like you got to hit a high note bugle and you're really trying to like throw it down the canyon. It's like it just kind of falls on his face.

Is it cool to drive around with him on your dashboard in the hot sun? No? Well it's cool for me as a business owner. Kids, you have to buy You're gonna have to buy some more calls. I have that problem, and a lot of times I'll get in my truck it's so hot it burns your legs. My calls landing like, yeah, it's not good. Felsame calls Dash. That's our next product that's coming out is your diaphragm

dash store. You're just just lyning all your diaphragms up on your dash and cook them to one sixty to some. I like to open up my little call pouch opening day of archery season and and then start digging through all my diaphragms that have pine needles and odd coloration to them and start popping those in my mouth and being like I've found them in my clothes dryer. As soon those are not good anymore were you're leaving your pants pocket. Some of them make it through. I think, Dirk,

you sent thee through. I sent one through the dryer, and it still sounds pretty good, pretty good. It wasn't fresh and articulate, but it was pretty good. Uh. Do you guys get product returns where people returned that it doesn't work because they don't know how to use it. We do. I usually try to take care of him in like a roundabout way or give them a different option. But you do. And it's tough because you don't want

to tell the person they sucked. Would you just would you just call him on the phone and be like, here's the call, here's your call. No, I've wanted to. I wanted people if it wasn't so gross, sent him back, and then I'm gonna send you an audio file of me using that exact call you sent back. And the thing does work. But we usually take care of him. But yeah, there are a lot of people, especially this

time of year. You know, new caller is getting him and say this thing doesn't work, and it just kind of bite your tongue and take care of him. Here's one. Here's one people call up they had bought a diaphragm, used it a bit, put it back in the in the the ziplock baggy. It came in and they see lit up wet, and then they like, two weeks later, this thing's moldy. It's moldy. Well you put it back in there wet for minutes. Yeah, it's gross. You can't do that. That's bad for calls, bad for phelps, bad

for hygiene, bad for a lot of stuff. So keep them, you like to keep them in the freezer, dry out laying. I mean, I'll just lay them on the counter for two or three hours after I use them, let them dry out and then you know. So I'm pretty fortunate. I just go build new calls when I want calls, you know. But if you're gonna if you're buying an investing scenes, definitely, you know, fridge and freezer, dark um, dark kitchen counter, you know, or dark um drawer, any

of that stuff will work best. Is it bad to soak them in mouthwash? It's not. It is. The acid in there can definitely break them down. I know a lot of people like brush them with their toothbrush at the end of the year, you know, or clean them off. But I would advise not putting any you know, some of that stuff is abrasive in your toothpaste or mouthwashing and alcohol, yeah, yeah, it's it's alcohol and you know,

the acidic. And I think I would stay away from any of that sort of stuff because I've done that. I've done it a few times. Soaked it in mouthwash, yeah, just to make sure like there's no funk growing on there. You know what, what's the most common mistake that people make when they're trying to start learning how to call um?

Keep it general, And I think the most common mistake is someone will pull it out of the package, put it in their mouth and try to do a full, big nasty bugle and not succeed and be like, well, I can't do this obviously, I don't know what I'm doing there. You hear that a lot. And I always like to preach fundamentals, learn how to make noises first, and then turn those noises into elk calls, so we're

kind of noises um. The one I like, the high pitch noise, is probably the hardest, hardest one to make. You kind of go to it, kind of a mosquito noise. I like to call it. Let me let me throw it all up. Here we go. It's also what you're pulling out of your pocket, So I'm gonna pull out an amp read. This is the Maverick. This is the one I designed with Jason and uh, and I taught my kids how to do to call up with the

same concept. So you want to make this high pitch mosquito noise, so that segues into how to calc caoll. So once you kind of figure out how to hit that high pitch mosquito noise, then just roll anything around in your mouth until you can do that. Yeah. And then once you make that mosquito noise, relax your tongue. So I just kind of let your tongue fall away and then you'll start hitting the pitches of a cal call. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

dropping your jaw right. I uh struggled with diaphragms. I mean, I'm still like, not at all remotely great, but I struggle with diaphragms for long time and then realize that I had it about a half inch too far forward, And once it occurred to me where it belongs on the roof of your mouth made all the difference. Oh yeah, you're too far back. You'll gag too far forward, it'll make your tongue tickle. Yeah. So when I first started, I'm like, how could anyone ever bear this? The feeling

of that? And then then I went like gradually back back back, and then more I went back back back, the more I was like, Oh, this isn't like the worst thing in the world, but it's a great regret of mine not um devote more time to learn how to call. When I was younger, my brother danielays like to call docks whatever, and so it was kind of like as long as someone liked it, they just became like the person that did it, you know, and you

went forced to do it. But my guy, I wish like not learn in Spanish and not learning how to call better earlier or too huge missus, because it's frustrating, man, it is. And then I think, you know some people that spend a lot of time not necessarily being great or not doing it the right way, it's tough to like rewind and say, right, the call needs to be

placed here, you need to do this. They're just kind of trapped in that, well, this is as good as I'm gonna get, and then they just ride that out that's pretty much where I like, I have a range of noises where I'm like they achieved the results I'm looking for. And I've basically stopped my education there and I need to like keep going. But every year I'm like, yeah,

I'll just do this. And that's the beauty of it. Like, you know, guys guys like me and Dirk that can you know, call all the you know, all these sounds and make all these perfect tones. I think, you know, like you just said, you're effective with what you've got. I don't. You don't have to. And that's another thing

that rolls right into the beginner. A lot of these guys learned to call or but then they go out in the woods and are super unconfident, like they got a bowl bogle and they're like, I'm not gonna call. I don't want to screw this up where it's I think we've called in some horrible sounding out you know, and it's just be confident and make that sound and see what happens versus new callers just they might play on the calls. They go out there and they're just

silent and they they're scared to do anything. My brother and I when we first started calling. He sounded horrible. It sounds like he stepped on a rabbit and then kicked a chiaha or something. It sounded horrible, But he would he would put so much emphasis and so much emotion and into his calls and just piss off the elk. They would just come and I'm like, that sounds terrible, But man, bulls would react and they would come in.

I think a lot of guys make the mistake of making that real pretty bugle over and over and over again, but there's no emotion to it. You might hear that sad that guy you know in the woods, it's like over and over again. Yeah, he might get a bold answer, but you don't pass them off. So step out of the box and let her rip, you know, make some tones that are a little off, that's okay, as long

as you're putting some emotion into it. We are. It sounds like a bowl that's just making anoise for the sake of making annoyance, which they do versus the ball who's like, hey, this is where I am or where the hell are you? Guys, I'm gonna fight you. Yeah, but you hear some crazy soulence too, though. But we when we're first starting, first started Elkin. We'd sit there all the time and debate, is that a guy or

an elk? Is that a guy or an elk? And I remember one time, um, we're hunting the Sapphire range and convinced ourselves that it was a guy because not only was it like you're saying just that like perfect little bugle over and over and over again, but it was coming from up by a road. And we get out there and walk into you know, twenty coles and a big bull standing there, and I'm like, man, how do you know? You say you can always tell right, No, there's there's Yeah. Well I don't want to be so

it's like a pride thing. I don't want to be called in by a hunter or somebody to see me and say I called in Feli. So he's been like a lot of times like I'm ready to bail, like last second bail I'm getting And then here comes a bull coming over the ridge and I'm like, I'm glad we stuck it out. Yeah something he's gonna have his phone pointed at you to get on camera. He's using your calls. He's using your calls. You'd be like, oh, that's why I happened. Bro, Yeah, hit him another one,

Johnnie Ye. Anyone is solicited these questions. That's right. Thank you for everyone that's uh helped us out and participated. Um. Should we stick with the beginner type stuff while we're here? Um? What is step one? We got a lot of that, Like a lot of beginners just being like where where is step Like give me ground zero? Step one? What's the first thing I need to do? I want to learn how to alcohol? So, uh, you know, we do a lot of marketing. You know, we've got all of

our signature calls. I would say, don't jump into those right away, even though I'd love you to buy one of Minor Dirk's personal calls, like start at a at a different level and I don't want to sound like a used car salesman, but get to and because what happens is, you know, there's different latex is, different thicknesses. If you maybe by the gray and don't try the black, you might say, man, I suck at this, but that gray doesn't fit your calling style the way you you

know apply pressure. UM. So our recommendation is typically by UM and I'm gonna get pretty specific in our own line of calls here like the black AMP and gray AMP and and this goes for any brand though. Hey, sorry, we've been saying AMPLE a lot, but I don't think anybody knows what AMP is yet. Can you explain? So AMP is is the frame that we we developed. It's you know, it's got a bunch of amplify um aluminum

metal plate. There's a bunch of different acronyms we tied all into that AMP UM And so the calls that that are these AMP you know, they've they've got the logo stamped on our calls. UM. But it's just it's basically got a radius hybrid plate that sits over the latex. And what that does is make the call easier to both Calcoll and Biagle. Back when we made the old school flat frames, UM, it was kind of a it was a wonder it was either Calcoll or it was a bowl call and then to make a call it

did both. It just wasn't great at anything. So the nice thing about these AMP frames is, UM they're smaller, they fit they fit most people, UM, you know, narrow pallets, high pallets. But it really gives us as a designer, UM or call builders um you know called it. It is good calcoll is a very good bowl call, and you don't really want anything else besides that one call. Once you find the one that fits. That's that's what

the amp um. When we refer to AMP, we're just talking about the specific series of diaphragms that we make, and that's what you recommend for any new who's like dying to get started. Yeah, unless you're like the sixties seven year old guys, hause I've been using those quadruple framed calls for the last fifty years. Then we'll maybe send him over into our triple read flat. But if you're a new caller, definitely start with the single reads um in the frame. Just name a call, but name

a call. They should buy black AMP and gray so they would go and be like there that is ye and so black amp. This is one of the marketing genius on my part because nobody ever calls the dame calls by their name. They're like, hey, I've got your one call that's was white. I want another one of those. So you're like, oh, you mean the dirty Harry triple purple nerple. Yeah, So it just made sense on on the normal amp line. We just called them by their color.

So you got a black that. It just makes my life way easier than happen to try to figure out what color talking about. Yeah, yeah, you'd be like, you know, what do you call it? It's the gray one? Yeah, would be the one? So that so the ant black and ant gray or what we recommend all new colors. Try those, let us know which one you like. That way you don't get stuck by intent calls. It might

not work for your three calls. That might not work for you when you if you tell me the ant black is your go to, I'll say, all right, let's get green and orange next time maybe, Or if the black is all you need that That's the other thing we get Hey, man, I really love your great call? What other ones should I try? I like more great calls. It's like there, you don't don't keep like searching for like this. You know the grass isn't always green, or just if it works for you to stay with it.

But um. The other thing we get into is like I don't want to oversell everybody, like, well, do you want a veagle Well you might need a veagle tube because our diaphragms need to be blowing through a vehicle tube. And so then you get the questions. And so if you are going to get a bugle tube, if that's your intention is to go out there and locate bowls and call bowls in with vehicle tubes, Um, the larger Unleashed or the Renegade are going to be easier for

you to use. Um. We also have a backpacking version, the Unrival. That's a little guy. That thing is sweet. It's a lot nicer, but it's it's not quite as loud, doesn't have quite deeper tones. But the one positive they carry, Yeah, it's just it's it's way less room in your pack and it still gets a job done. But a new color is going to find that the larger tubes easier for them to use. And you can beat a barrel

or tohead. Yeah yeah, yeah, you can playin pint coo and baseball and during a lunch break and all kinds of stuff. Hey have you ever? Um, that's good. You could play pine cone baseball with that? Have you guys ever? I know you only sell like five of them. Do you guys ever make moose tubes? We do? Um, it's just a cut off version of our bogle tubes so

um every year when the draws come out. Yeah, I can almost tell when the draws come out because somebody will say, hey, will you modify me a tube from moose call, and so we just cut rather than the back pressure on the end of these larger tubes. Will just cut him at that first, so you don't get any back pressure, but you still need to be able

to beat brush with it. That's why it's nice to have a pretty heavy duty we yeah, we just cut him at the knuckle, um, and we don't we don't mark at them, but we will make him for people. What makes this Bagle two different than just going and buying a whiffleball bat and cutting the ends off in

blowing through you know that whiffball bat. I'm gonna let Dirk go ahead, since so we started out with with whiffle ball bats, right, And like Phelps game calls used to sell, used to buy unbadged fat bats, you know the little kids fat Yeah, I would buy them. I would say, Hey, they had a mold that didn't have the fat bat logo in them, send me those ones, and I would sit and modify fat bats for days in my shop. Heat them up and putting a little lip.

I had a big industrial ad that would put like a hole saw on poke the holes in the end, you know, sit there and run them through and cut the ends off, burn them, smooth them over, um modify those. And so when I was told that fat bat was no longer making or that mold was basically done, it was no good anymore. It was kind of a blessing in disguise for me as a company, because I'm like, all right, now, I've gotta go get my own mold made.

And at that time, I'm like, let's take everything we we like about the bat and include it, but let's take everything we want to add to it at this point um and added in. So yeah, and the thing is the trouble with those bats, you don't get the right back pressure, and back pressure equals like good note articulation. So if you struggle hitting those high notes when you're bugling um and you know, getting those like hit that staircase of notes, uh, you would struggle with one of

those old bats. But with these new engineered um bugle tubes. Jason went through a lot of trial and error with what's that computer program that you did I'm a I'm a nerd. I'm gonna let everbody know I'm a nerd. So I went and got charts over like you know, mail mail long capacity at different ages. And so there's a there's a program. I'm gonna let all my competitors if if they're listening, we don't have to. There's a there's a program called solid works, which is basically a

mechanical engineering program. I could build this bat, say let's send a thirty year old males volume to this What back pressure do we get? You know, based on the inside hole. And so I could sit here as a nerd and say, all right, we want to change the shape. And I added corrugations because we didn't want all that air just flowing down the sides of that tube. So you can feel that we added corregations. We wanted to disrupt that air and get some reaver back in the tube.

So there's a lot of stuf if we did that was based on something, you know, explain the back pressure just a little bit more. So, Let's say you see how big this tube is. For everybody that can't see, we have a four inch diameter, big, big tube. It looks like a kid's who football back. Yeah, I could knock your honest out, Yeah, twenty four in long whiffleball, no problem. Or you can take let's say, like a

one inch piece of PVC. Like just fundamentally you're thinking like, well, that one inch PVC doesn't take near as much air, right because it's so so much smaller. But the way that works is it actually takes more air to run a diaphragm through that one inch PBC because your air

is just straight flowing through it. Whereas when you fill this I kind of imagine you fill this tube up with that initial amount of air and then the cup at the end actually kind of just backs the air down the tube, down the tube all the way to where your diaphragms at, and so you can kind of relax a little bit. You don't have to just run, you know, a hundred percent max air through that too, because the way we've cut the end and designed that whole size, it kind of lets you relax in there.

Like fifty I'm just gonna throw crazy numbers out the um air, so saying you're still getting the same volume and energy, you're just using that tube to basically assist you on running that diaphragm. Rip a couple of big bugles. You guys, what's really crazy? Like if it's called out and you're out, you just rip one big old bugle and you just slight. As soon as you just slightly take your tube away from your lips, you can feel air come rush back onto your lips a little bit.

You can feel that backflow, that back pressure flow onto your lips. It's weird interesting. So I'll rip one first. Sorry, Jason, Yeah, just oh you got your own? Who is this? That's fine, you can use it. I guess you're fired up. Gives me a little run. You're picking that up? Phil? Oh, yeah, behind your little curtain over there. Pretty much of everybody listening. That was a blue call and a red call. So if you want to sound like that, you gotta buy the blue call. This was like a batch I just

made for the World Calling Championship. Scratch scratch at Kyl said, I was blown on a pink call. What we just got back last weekend from the World Out Calling Championships in Park City, Utah? So what goes on at that? So? I noticed someone asked about that. You see how good hosting that was? Honest? I was gonna mention it. You're gonna you're gonna point out the hosting skills. Uh yeah, what goes out to the world alcohol get up on stage and called the seven judges behind the screen like

Phil is right now? Yeah, yeah, Phil wouldn't know, so he wouldn't have known who Dirk or I was right there, and he would he would try to tell you who he thought was better, the first caller calling him so, and you guys are competing, Yeah, we were not judging. But Dirk, Dirk absolutely hates the fact, and he doesn't want me to ever reference it. But you're six time world champion. I don't know. He hates he hates that fact. He hates to use it for anything because you don't

you don't like sound like a blow hard. He'd rather like take pictures in September behind the dead bull is

his his prize. But but you okay, so yeah, I've won it several times in the men's division, right, the men's four years ago, Damien had all the call offs three ago, four years ago, four years ago, I won first yea And where do you win when you win cash prizes and then you win a bunch of cool crap you know, rifle scopes and bows and rifles and just depends on the package they put together for the year. But I've won rifles before, and um, we can't want to. I don't think I ever wont to bow. But how

many times did you win the World Championship? Like six times? Seriously? Yeah, but I lost a lot more more times than I've ever won it. I mean I've started competing in nineties six, I think, are you feeling me in forty five? I hate it? Yeah, I got a weird Uh, I got weird aches and pains. Yeah. One War one is right now and there. I would never have to a guy like Seth. Huh, Like it's like a something weird pinch nerve in there because I'm doing the armstrong pull up regimen.

It's getting painful. Are you Are you keeping up with the pushups? I haven't doing that part of it. I gotta barn my house and I hung two at work. I hit that one up upstairs yesterday. You know, sure the production team really likes your placement. Oh, is there a problem with the placement? No? You know one of our colleagues thought that me and Seth hung it up to hang beavers. From which I'm like, what the hell kind of beavers you think we're I think it's a

fair question. Yeah, we've been flashing beaver hides in the morning a little bit. We've got a few of them done. Yeah, someone thoughtles for beaver hanging, like how the people gonna get through here when you hang beavers from that? It's just a pull up bar. But yeah, I don't know. Man, So you'd like being forty five, you think it's it's hard. It sucks, you know, you just just you can't build muscle mass like you could before. It's hard to get

back into shape. I mean a guys should probably stay in shape year around, but rounds of shape too, and I kind of tend to go that way in the wintertime. But h man, I wish I knew back when I was in my twenties what I know now and have, like the gear, the quality calls and the gear and stuff that had back when I was twenty. I wish I had him back then. Man Idaho had tons of beautiful elk back then, not not not so much anymore. It would have been it would have been awesome, but hindsight,

so I'll tell my brother the other day man. I was like, dude, we live through the good old days. Man. Yeah, it's crazy because I get older every year and it seems like the hunts I go on are harder and harder every year. Like not just because my age, but we were going to like some nasty, nasty places before we kill elk in a lot easier places, and now it's just like to to get them consistently. We're going to some stupid places. And I'm like, I thought when you got old, you kind of got to go back

to the easy stuff again. And I'm like, when is that going to happen? So, yeah, well I think a lot of guys get old and with age comes like you get become more financially secure, and so you just start hunting private land. I don't think I can do that, which just I mean, it's a thing that happens, right because you're like, you know, we'd be like, I think nothing that we'd walk nine miles and carry a cow out right, you know, and you don't like you don't

run into a lot of seven year old dudes doing that. Now. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out how much longer I mean I got I'm playing on having a lot more left in me. But if I live, if I live all the years I've been alive over again, I'll be dead, right, Yeah, and that I don't like the feeling. Yeah, I got a buddy. His dad's pushing seventy, so he'd be a hundred forty. Yeah. He's a tough old bird. I mean, that guy hunts some nasty Idaho back country, very few elk, lots of wolves, you know,

and they consistently killed bowls, you know. But he's just a tough old guy. And he's had any surgeries and back surgeries and everything, but he just he's just like, I'm gonna do this until I can't possibly walk up the trail anymore. When I meet if I meet a guy, like when I meet an older feller and he can form a pretty good sentence and still does a lot of hunting, and was like, how old you? And if he says like sixty five, like sweet year, twenty more years?

You know how old you? Now? Seth, I'm gonna in August, My goodness, I'm oldost to be your daddy. Not quite. It's sure, yeah, like physiologically sure it is possible, but in our generation, not well that's not true. I guess there were a few dudes that made babies that early, but not most people were. I mean, but I remember

by the time I finished high school. Remember four girls would when I was finishing high school, there were four girls that would their moms that bring their babies down to show them off at the end of school, at the end of the school day. Yeah, there's a lot of the attrition too from drinking and driving. Oh yeah, yeah, sure, yeah. I think that's changed a little bit too now, I mean within your high school. This has nothing to do with kids from high school getting killed off from drinking,

from just vehicle accidents, drinking and driving whatnot. Anyhow, what's the next one you got? Johnnie? Were straight a little bit. Let's get into some tactics. Let's there's anything else you guys want to say about the the immediately quickly transit. You touched on birth, new life, just briefly before you got into just death. That's called premier hosting. I don't want to leave everyone on a negative note. I talk about young people having babies. Jason, can you overcall an elk?

And how do you know if you've done it? That's a good one. Everybody says, don't call it too much. So I'm gonna break I'm gonna break this down in two segments, like location. I don't think you can overlocate like the things you're either going to answer you or it's not like I can locate through another locator, like they're elk down there, down there. I think when you move in close and you know, you get set up and try to call this bull, and I think you

can overcall um. You know, sometimes they're you know, playing the game. They're wanting you to respond, or they're wanting to respond, or they're moving in close, and that bull I think silent sometimes is your best key. You let him know I'm within a hundred yards of you, and that thing gets, you know, somewhat curious to come find you. Versus if you keep hammering or to keep calling, you're gonna that bull is just gonna potentially take his cows and go away. What do you think he's thinking when

you overcall? Is he thinking that's a mug or is he thinking that this is some crazy elk that I don't feel like dealing with. I think he just doesn't want to lose his cows, This crazy bull that's down there calling. I think that's more of his you know, he's he's gonna grab his cows and try to get out of here. If you're just gonna sit in that one spot, um, you know, something out of the out of the box stuff. I know you hunt out of the box as well, Derek sometimes, but you like just

bueling as you walk towards the bull. Yeah, you risk me out of the box. So not just I mean we do all these seminars and stuff like, oh, you set up seven yards away, so I'm just I'm just gonna be biggle and keep walking at you, you know, and some of this stuff and that bowls like, well, now he's coming, I'm gonna have to go deal with him. Versus if I sat at a hundred twenty yards biggle bigle bagles, he's like, well, I'm just gonna grab my cows and get out of here. That thinks not coming

any closer. Versus, if you were to bagle that same amount but start walking towards him, it could be a completely different situation because now he has no other chance choice but to deal with you. Um. So yeah, I think you can definitely overcall elk Um. Typically I think at the point I know what were called elk is when his next bugles hundred fifty yards and then he's two hundred yards and um, you know, typically then we'll have to reset up, move closer, and then try to

do it again. Do you when you're calling to an elk and all of a sudden he splits, do you feel it as possible to say he splits because he still thinks I'm an elk, but he's grabbing his cows and going, Or he splits because he's just suspicious. No, I think I think you um could definitely stay with him.

He just doesn't want to lose his cows. So there's been many times where we've called bulls and on the fourth, fifth, sixth set up where we're just kind of shadowing him, trying to get closer and closer and push his buttons, and all of a sudden he's like, Okay, now I'll finally turn. Yeah. I feel like sometimes too, he'll get those stalemates and those bulls will want you to show yourself. They're like, all right, I've came all this far, It's time for you to come my way a bit. Because

he doesn't when he doesn't want to get shot and killed. Well, if he believe in the calls, though, he thinks you're a bull and if and if you watch a lot of elk behavior, they kind of they kind of like to check each other out a little bit. Maybe kind of they do that little walk thing by each other and kind of show each other off. And it's like, I don't know if I want a fighter. I do, And then they decide to fight, and I think, um, they want that leap of faith. It's like, all right,

I've came this far. You gotta give me something, show yourself or come closer. Um. And sometimes if if you don't show yourself and you've had a stalemate, let's say that bulls fifty yards, you can't see him in this kind of thick timber or something, and then they sometimes just kind of move off. I think he thinks you're a coward at that points, like you talk pretty tough, but you never really showed yourself. So usually if they're trying to leave, I'm running at him. I'm taking off

after him. I rip a big nasty challenge bogle, and I'm I'm running towards them to say, hey, where the heck you going? Man? Come back. I want to fight, and I've done this a lot, and that's like, that's like having a really good understanding of his temperament. Man, Yeah, it's cool. I kind of go all in on onto those deals. It's like every time might play play the the Elk game, you know, back and forth, biggling with this bowl, It's like, I'm going all in this is

this is a one shot deal. I'm probably not going to come back to him and it come you know, just kind of tiptoe around the edges and then maybe have something happen and if it don't work I'll come back in a day or two and try him again. Now I'm gonna go in there, and because what do we elk do? They Usually they go back and forth, they come together, they fight, they figure it out, and

then they go their separate way. So I'm gonna go up there, get get in his face and try to push him, trying to make him mad, appeal to his anger, make him make a mistake where he finally just says, heck with, I'm so mad at you. I'm not gonna pay attention to wind. I'm just gonna come in a straight line to come right to you. So well, I guess he's I'm trying to ask. I'm not asking it clearly.

I like a thing that's rolling around in my head though, is spooking him meaning revealing to him that you are not in fact and elk? Yeah? Yeah, how much? By calling? By calling, by running at him, by potentially And so it's like, I think that that one of the ways it prevents people from getting super aggressive or running after an ELK or doing these different things is because you're

not trying to reveal your hand. So is that obviously that's floating around in the back of your head too, right, Yeah, it's like the last ditch offer. I always believe in my calling all the way to to the end. He's never gonna spook away from the calling, but he's spook away if he sees me. So you don't think that, Like, if you're a passible caller, you think that even if he leaves and it takes off, you don't you don't think that that elk, that that bowl is like, I

don't buy it. I think that's a person because he's doing weird stuff. Maybe if you're hunting in an area where there's he's had a lot of human contact where he's been messed with before, maybe spooked around, but sended some guy after he's been bugling. I always wonder do they even know, Like I'm over here bugling and then let's say the wind changes and he sends me and takes off. Does he think that's a dude over there buglan or is that an elk? And then some guy

snuck up here and I smelled a human. I mean, I don't always wonder what he's gotten going on in his head. We were one time bear hunting and we hung our food up in a tree, and we came back and there was a pine squirrel eating a block of cheddar, and then we ran after it, screaming to

get our cheddar back. And I always wondered if he thought this is the weirdest day he'd ever experienced, like one that you found a block of chatter and then to some dudes showed up, or if he put together like that was your cheddar, that I found these guys chatter and they showed up, like when he recounts that to his friends, Or maybe he thought he like a man when it rains it storms, because then he thought you wanted to steal his cheddar. Oh yeah, he's like,

you know, strange thing. I found some cheddar and then some people can even stole my cheddar. Yeah. I never thought that's a good point. The elks, Like, no, there was a elk he was bugling, but then some guy showed up and I ran off right, which there's been times where they've winded me or us, and in a little while later we kind of took back in with

our bugling match, you know, back and forth. And I don't know if that elk was just super dumb and not used to smelling people, or if he actually thought, well, that's that bowl and that dude's probably gone now. I don't know. But most of the time, when they smell you, it's it's a game over. It's it's over. But there's been a couple of times it's like, wow, why did this work this time? I mean, if you spooking elk,

how long do you wait? Like let's say you knew you got a elk in a basin and he's kind of hanging around there, and you're going and you bump them because you blow them out, and then all of a sudden, the next day he's bugling back in there again. Are you Like, Man, I'm gonna wait three days until he totally forgets. I'll give him a couple of days. I'm going that next day public Land. Man, it's tough

because you don't have it to yourself. But I've done that, waited the two or three days and have some other guy walking there and kill him. So maybe you should go in the next day. So you know, there's all these areas, right, it's like, oh, yeah, you can't bugle like you will not you can't call elk here right. Growing up in Montana, Missouri, Breakes is like, oh, lots of bulls in the brakes, big bulls, but you can't

call elk. And then going down and working in New Mexico, same deal, like, oh yeah, you just can't call these bulls in you know they're educated. In Arizona too, it's like, oh, you can't call in big bulls because you're saying because they're educated. My impression was always like I cannot call in a bowl, which means nobody else can call me like they hear because you hear that too, Like they hear a call and they go the other direction, yes, exactly,

or these bulls know each other so well. That any new bugle is just like an alarm. I don't buy it. Yeah, I've talked to some guy, you know, even the even the you know, the big outfitters and stuff. Oh you can only cal called our bulls down here in Arizona and stuff. And I've talked to some new buddies, like I would love to see you guys come down here and hunt your style. Like everybody tells you guys you can't. But He's like, you guys would come down here and

run through this place and have a good time. I just want, I just want the challenge of you know, going to I want to New Mexico and the same thing. You can't call these bulls. They come to water, they go bed, that's their life. And we had I mean we called in, you know, two or three bulls every morning, you know, bulls every night. It was just incredible. And I don't believe any of that stuff. Um, I just

I don't. I think those guys just hunt different, like it's a different different mindset or people here it and they get down there and get scared to do it they would do up here, And I just want to go down there and rip out him. And it worked in New Mexico where I hunted. I got a buddy that he was told, oh, yeah, you can't bugle bulls in Arizona, and that he's had two Arizona tags and both times he said, we we called bulls in all day long, every day. They were just they come screaming

in like nowhere else. I don't know what people are thinking. So part of the head game no different than fishing. I think, you know, calling out in really open country though, is difficult. You know, it's more of a you gotta be a lot, use a lot of strategy before you can't just go I can see help three hundred yards will and blow your bugle and they're probably not gonna just come running to you. I mean because because they

want to see it, they want that visual. Yeah, yeah, I think you need to get in tight, use some terrain features, be like you know, shadow the herd, use some train features to where you get close like they're just on the back side of a little ridge or a coolie or something. And then you do some calls and then wait for them to have to come up to investigate, and then be possession to where you can make that shot. But you just can't bugle from three

hundred yards away. That's like calling too much. You're standing at a burn bull stand over their bugle at you, and you're kind of pinned down. You don't you can't just continue making calls because they're looking. They might not see you, but like, there's no welk over here. They

know exactly where you're at. I'm gonna bugle a couple more times and see if there's any elk there, But then they're like, there's nothing there, and then they then they kind of take off and then they make It makes them pretty tough to call at that point because then they're just suspicious. Yeah, they're just like and I don't I don't buy that. I like that what you're saying about getting in their zone, you know. Um, what

I always like about it. And this same thing with turkeys or whatever is uh, when it's far away, it's like you don't really know what their response is. But the when you get close to something and called to it, you kind of quickly like find out this is a this is this a thing or not? You know what I mean? It always feels good. We're hunting in Kentucky

and had an elk tag in Kentucky. And yeah, we're just saying eating lunch, weren't we And you're honest, ripped a bugle and I mean this bullet walked up because he couldn't have taken three steps. But it was like we're just having a bugle right on top of him, like up out of his bed. Oh right right right, come ore with check us out. Because he's like, dude, that think is right on top of me. Man, you know, and he like had to deal with it. You know, you had to pay attention to it. And that's that's

I mean, at least our strategy hunting with Dirk. You know, we're just we're trying to create that threat. Get sixty seven yards. Yeah, it doesn't sound like you're calling that bulling. You know, it's not as cool to call him in from a mile away. But um, part of our strategies to get like in their lap and forced them to come deal with us. Um, they're pretty territorial. You know, let's say they don't have cows. There's that transition phase of the route where the bulls haven't left their little

little bull bedrooms throughout the drainage. They've got their little their little home and you go from the top of the drainage. They won't answer. You get down in, you start dissecting that drainage. You go start hiking and through the bedroom betting areas of those things. You get within a hundred two hundred yards of them, you'll get a reply and they're not happy that you're there. It's like,

hey man, this is my spot. And a lot of times, um, they'll get pretty aggressive and come in after just a little bit of calling. But the consequence of hunting a betting area, you screwed up. They're they're gone. So I think what everybody wants to know is what works one percent of the time. Oh no, he told it. I put this to him before kind of and uh. He described the situation in a He described a situation which he would be surprised to not be able to move

that bull in his direction. You did say it works. That was that was more of your like a scenario. Yeah, it was like, it wasn't your mature herd bowls. It was a semimature satellite bowl that's off by his own feeding by himself during the middle of the Yet I would be sure I call that bolling. Yeah, I like that if I can find him if I can find him feeding on a pretty grass slope all by himself during the middle of the right when we let him pick he could be above it, below it, what it

was doing, who it was with the whole situation. And he was saying that he yeah, he was. I could move that bowl. If I could find that unicorn, I'll bet on myself. But when Dirk was like, well, you know, you're just not going to make like these big, clear, articulate sounds, and I was thinking to myself, well, that's not the ball I'm looking for. Somebody is much less articulate,

like quite know what's going on. Um, you guys sound like your bugle a lot more than your cal call, because Derek, you sound like every call you've made so far describing these scenarios is all bugle, and speak to that a little. But so I wanna I wanna appeal to that bulls uh instincts to fight rather than to breed, it seems like, you know, And there's a hundred different ways to skin a cat. And there's probably guys that have cow called in twice as many elk and kill

twice as many elk. Is me just with cal calls. But my experience was just cal calling in ELK. A lot of times they'll come in very meticulous, very slow, very cautiously. They'll come in down wind, you know that. I think the number one they're looking for a maybe to see if check to see if that cow is even in heat. They want to hear, they want to smell her, and then they want to see if there's

another bull there. Maybe there's another bowl just kind of laying low, and he doesn't want to just come up there and then hey maybe and then yeah, to get his ass kicked on the deal so um, and then maybe he's had, you know, because a lot of guys that that's their jam. They want to they want a cal call at the time. Maybe he's had some bad encounters with cow calls to where he's like, I remember one time I was up here and I've seen a dude that was making that noise or something. So they

came in a little more cautiously. Whereas when you can appeal to their instinct to fight, they get they get mad, and sometimes you can get them worked up enough they they forget about. When they forget about, all they want to do is come to you and kill you or run you off, and and you're more likely to do that by bugling. Now that being said, I will do some cow calls just to say, hey, there's something worth

fighting for over here. You know, if when he bugles, I might give him like some very interested like hey, I like the sound of you man, come over here. So here's your basic cow calls. When that bowls bugling, I ramp it up, show some emotion like oh hey there, come over. Yeah, kind of put a little bit of yearning type of a twist it. But but I won't

overdo it. I'll give two or three of those, and then I'll hit him with a bugle and every time but I'll wait so so yeah, and then she's saying like, yeah, I'm over here with the bull, but I don't like him. I wish you'd come over here, right right, So I I let I get the bold of bugle with the cow call. He'll bugle at the cow call, and then I say with my bugle, I say, hey, don't don't

talk to my girls. You shut up. And then it's like you're like telling him no. Well, he's thinking there must be a reason he's wanting to fight for these girls, and Also, I think it's just the whole You're putting the ball in their court. They're gonna have to do something so and you kind of you just kind of let it escalate a bit. It's not like you go for a third page, third base right right on from night gets in the car. You don't fringure, right, Uh.

You want to let that that temperature build a little, little by little, and you'll know because you'll hear his voice, the other bull's voice, and you'll hear the anger, and pretty soon he'll make a he'll make a bugle that there's no mistake. He's he's piste and he wants to fight, and that's when you need to ramp it up. You feel like you can detect that in his bugle. Oh yeah, yeah, there have to be relative. Does it has to be

relative to his other bugles? Or can you hear a single bugle and be like, I feel that that bull is pissed, because it has to be like he's more pisted now than he was earlier. There's a turning point. Yeah, He'll be giving you this normal bugles and then all of a sudden you'll hear the emotion in it and you'll be like, whoa, he's coming. He's gonna come. And shortly after that you'll start hear brush popping. But when he does that, he gives you that that bugle. I

just hammer take, I cut. I try to cut him off before he's done bugling a hammering, but it's just the meanest one. Just give it right back to him. And a lot of times that that's when he's gonna start coming. A lot of times after that, I'll just kind of if I know he's coming, I'll shut up. That's when I clam up, be quiet. It's it's time to time to come find me, So I'll just be quiet. But how okay, how about if you just trying to kill any bowl? That's any bowl? But why is that bolt?

Why would some little shaver if you're in there just like bell earn and squaloring and cutting them off, and like why would some little shaver ever dare come into forty yards? Wow, there's there's some short dudes at walk around. I think they're pretty tough. You know, they'll pick a

fight with the biggest guy in the bar. Right, So there's some little some young bulls that think they're pretty tough and curiosity, I mean, I've killed the world's like smallest rafter full of like baby rag horns, and I use the same strategy. I'm going to kill that herd bowl. But all these satellite bowls are still with the herd. So a lot of times they'll just come wandering in.

They might give you some little halfhearted bagles, um, but I'll still kill that, you know, small satellite bowls by by the same exact tactics that I thought I was supposed to use to kill the herd bowl um. And then to reiterate on Dirk. So I don't think cow Call's work is good. We're kind of reversing nature at that point. That bowls got hit for sure thing, like I've got ten ladies, I'm good. He's got satellite bowls

around him. Most likely he doesn't want to leave those ten for sure things to come get this one mystical lady out on the side. Until you add that bowl in, you then just kind of turn change the game at that point. So he so he when he beagles, he's like, well, this this new lady should just come over and join us. We should be good. He's not gonna necessarily leave, you know, come a hundred hundred fifty yards leave all those cows with some of these other you know, satellite bowls have

been pestering him all day to come investigate. He you know, nature expects that cow to go to him. When you win that ALCOHOLM championship, they ever give you big belt buckle, No, dude, that'd be sweet man, I'm called. It's kind of lean on, you know. Yeah, yeah, it looks like a pipe late. They don't get they don't hand out, they don't, they don't. You know. I think one year they did give those out, but of course I didn't win that year. You know, that was like the one cool thing they gave away.

But Yanni, Yanni's being all modest. He's not like a six time world champion, but he's a good elk caller. He might not be an elk competition winner, but he's he's a good elk caller. That's all that matters. And if Yannie likes to do I curiously, what do you guys think about this? He gets in there, he takes his jacket off, puts his gloves on, and he sets

to whooping on brush and rolling rocks and whatnot. Sometimes you guys big into that stickture is important as the calls are you if you saw him from far off to a spot and scope, you think you were looking at you like a certifiably insane person running around in circles and figure eights and busting trees, drawing rocks, and yeah,

he gets ready, takes his hat off. A guy I was wondering how big of a branch or log should he use when he's thrashing brush us, Like he thought, we're talking to something you'd bring home and cut off for stove wood. Yeah, you had to split it before you burned it. But sometimes if I can get just the right one, it's probably like, don't know, maybe six inches diameter in the middle of when I'm holding it, and it's long, it's like eight to ten ft on both sides of me. I can be getting two pieces

of brush at the same time. I remember once getting caught by a bowl. I was sitting there doing that, holding this giant log. I look over and there's a five point standing there looking at me, like, how come my guys not shooting you right now? Yeah? He and this is anecdotal, uh, but he's in there doing all this and carrying on. And we had a bull kept bumping into us, bumping into me and trying to get around me to get to Janice. He's like, there's that

damn guy again. Let you try another approach to go find out what's going on there? What's going on? That young curious bowl right just is like, man, there's something going on over there. And yeah, I think I think it's the biggest branch. I can find this close and go at it. How do you know when to do that? Lot of times I wait till a lot of times

they'll be that stalemate I talk about. They'll get to fifty yards and don't want to come in, but they'll start raking their antlers on a tree of their own. So I'll take into racing as well. And then usually what happens, they'll stop and they'll bugle, and when they stop in bugle A lot of times I'll cut them off and then we'll we'll go both go back to racing. And this may take four or five sessions of this back and fourth raking and then bugling, and then I'll

cut them off. But eventually they get pretty worked up. You know, they're getting there. It's like I'm getting I feel pretty tough, right, now they're they're raking and then you're making a mad you're talking smack every time he opens his mouth. Pretty soon they're coming. Yeah. Do you guys ever do any like pants or like moan in the into the tube? Just guys don't wear pants. Yeah,

we'll do We'll do all the sounds. I don't do any glunking, you know, any of that, but we'll do nonker is he as it worked, it's part of the rappers. I don't know. Now we moan, growl, you do all of that. Show people some moaning and growling. I'll do some some of the lunks to. I don't know that it with the tube. Yeah, I don't know that it works. It doesn't. Yeah, so I used you. I can do you get up by your deal there, I just tap on it. So he's just tapping. He's just got his

beautile tube and he's just tapping the mouth piece. You can do the same thing by making You can do the same thing by making suction on the top of your mouth and basically sucking in at the same time. But in my opinion, I can't do it real well. Um so I don't glunk with my mouth. But why the bowls. Glunk, Why don't you glunk? It's usually I mean at the time you can hear the glunk, you're within that six year eight yard window and I'm doing

other things. I'm trying to get my my release, you know, everything knocked up everybody, and then I can still make I'm not having to like tap a tube make a bunch of movement because you're saying, are you here, It's like hearing a turkey girl, it's about ready to do Yeah. It's there are guys in the world calling championships that are glunking with their mouth real well, not real well. No, the kid in the youth division this year it was

the best. And it's to the point now where there's I wouldn't say there's not a lot of skill, but I think even some of our judges don't even know what they're listening to um and so it's it's pretty risky to go up there and use some of your time because they're doing like celebrity judges. They're not doing like judge judges and doing celebrity It's it's all basically the majority of them were all like Utah outfitters and guides and stuff. The judges also not celebrity gems, not

celebrity just behind the scenes guys. But yeah, yeah, I think it was pretty risky to do any of that. Well, it don't sound right. It sounds like you're beating on your tube. It doesn't sound like an actual glunk. If you could re actually reproduce it, well, I would definitely do it. But it's tough. It's to do some screaming and moaning whatnot. They're not screaming moaning, and I mean just that subtle. I mean, is he's tending cows. Excuse me,

you know he's tending cows. Is he's is, he's doing his thing, and he's just making those subtle just you know, elky sounds. Yeah, what's going on when a bowl makes uh like muse COWCOLI kind of mused and stuff. I don't even know what he's got going I mean, they do the calcol the time. I don't know what the heck that means or why he's doing it. I never heard him do it in the rut though. I had a bowl one time. Every time right before he bugle,

he'd go and then he just scream. I'm like, man, he's got a cow over there and finally he came out and I've seen him do it. I'm like, what's he do one? But you never throw that in the mix. I mean yeah at the World's Yeah, that'd be a risky business. Like back a long time, I mean hunting, like, it's just it's just it's so rare that you don't need to Well, I'm MUing you a little bit here

and there. There's so much noise and some of those situations, like there's so much going on, right, I'm not Yeah, I don't know. I guess if you can pick out the subtle noises, they can too, would be a good the like the heavy breathing stuff, I'll do that, like when it's really getting pitched back and forth. But that's one thing where I'm like, this is risky, Like I just don't have the confidence. Does this sound good to him? Yeah?

Just like breathing through that too, really heavy? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I've always wondered. I mean you can do that. I'm like, I hope this sounds good on his end? Is I think it does? Because I don't. I don't know what it makes sense in the conversation. But that's where I just like resort back to I'll just beat on some brush. I'm confident that that sounds right. But the col muse, I've mostly only heard him when it's like late season.

There are they're bashed up again and they're sparring. They're doing that light little fun spar and they're sort of they're mewing against each other. That's when I've heard it, mostly when her abrews mewing um, which brings me to late season h calling. A lot of people like post rot, like should I even bring calls? Do you guys bring calls? I don't leave I don't leave house without at least

a cow call. If it's November December, Like let's say it's a late archery hunt in December, definitely have a cow call because you want me want to stop stopping help. But I think they're curious year round. Let's say there's summons a brush patch pretty close and you just like want one to come out to investigate. You start making a lost calf excuse me, a lost calf call. Make it like a lost calf cow call or or a cow call. They might come over and check it out.

Especially spike Spikes are like, oh man, who's over there is that my mom. I mean that they're pretty curious. So I think if you can look at yeah, uh but yeah, you want to appeal to their curiosity. So do you got what what do you guys think when people tell you, um that September right early September it's all hot, and people are like, oh, it sucked. They're not fired up yet? Are you Like? Yeah? I agree, No, I love it. I'm gonna I'm gonna prove your own

just a second. Yeah, So I I I think you can all you know, if it's hot, um, you know, early morning, late night. But I think I feel alike and and I haven't been proven wrong too many times. I can go in there and get something fired up eventually if they're ilk there. Last year in Idaho, as some guys told me there were no Elk there, I'm like, I'm bettering you guys are gonna up there and find there were no Elk there. They showed me they were.

I feel like somewhere in that unit, it might not be in the base and them in or the basin next to it, but somewhere in that unit during September it should be able to get something going. Yeah. I always come back to the fact I'm like, this is their only time of the year to do this. They have to figure they're not gonna waste They're not gonna be like, well, it's real hot. I don't really feel like mating for my time of year that I get

to make, something's gonna happen. What about when there's no noise, right, do you know there's elk there but no one's making a peat? Do you go and look for new ones? Yeah? The you know the old adage, don't leave elk to find elk, But a lot of times that's the game I'm playing. If I can't call it in, I'm probably not gonna be able to kill it where I hunt. Usually it's because big timber, a lot of brush. You can't just sneak around and you know, sneak up on

one and shoot it. So if they won't talk, I'm moving. It's funny. And it'll be let's say September and you cannot buy a bugle for some reason, there's like there's no the elk will not call there. Here, there's there's elk here, and the calls I'll leave. I'm like, I'm driving twenty five miles to a different complete different drainage system and you go over there and they may be

on fire over there. I've seen that before, just regionally, and you might have been in that very spot on your an off day if you were there the day before, or they might have been on fire. And then there's that you'll have an awesome day of bugling and the next day will be completely quiet. You'll see that kind of fluctuate through the whole the whole rest. So a lot of times, if it's not going on here, I hike out, jump on the truck, DRIs do a different

spot and go hunt there. I think a lot of that has to do to man with with one cow. You get that one cow that's in heat, and all of a sudden, you know, everybody's you know, fired up. At least in Colorado. I mean, obviously there's a whole bunch of elk there, so maybe it happens more often

just because there are more elk. But plenty of times in third season, which is normally you know, first week, maybe even to the second week in November, there's some raghorn opening morning that's bugling that you can hear is a way and he's not bugling for no reason. There's a cow that's in or you know, second cycle or whatever. I have a theory, and you guys, I want you guys to weigh in on it. So my uncle told me this when I was young, just getting into this

whole thing. He likes to hunt on the end of like at least six or seven, eight fifteen dry days in a row. He's convinced that when it rains and washes that cow sent away, that it kills the rut for a day or two because her scent is now washed away. Whereas though you know, those semi mature satelight bowls that are running ridge tops, running finger ridges can pick her sent up after four or five days, you know,

wherever wherever she later sent down. Whereas that next day at rains, he's like, it's gonna kill the rut for like two or three days. And I've kind of always we've always had good success, like if we can hunt through a dry section, but then as soon as you get that rain, I'm like, it may just be the weather slows him down. But I'm like, I wonder if you know that that kind of kills the rut. And so I love you know that September, if I can get a bunch of dry days, whether it's hot or not,

it seems to be better. I never heard that, and I feel like that would fall under the thing of that you just have a wide open schedule. Yeah, and you live in your spot. And because I would never be like I was gonna but it rain, but it rained yesterday. Yeah. I just can't picture someone like actually acting upon that. You know there and I'm in the same way. Same with moon phases. There's only so many September so I'm like, I'm hunting. I'm hunting the whole thing.

But freshnow, freshnow in Montana and Idaho, like I have had a lot of screw it, I'm gonna go hunt and had the worst days of like falling elk tracks around in the snow, nobody's playing, nobody's talking. I think that absolutely shuts them down. I think of wet when you get like it happens every year, that wet ass September dump of like four inches of slush. It does take. It's just like it just ends the party. And often I find they just like up and move crazy places.

They're like pack up, move eight miles or whatever. Yeah. One thing that I like confidence kills right, Like whatever I'm gonna do may not be the right thing. When I'm like really standing it, Uh, you run into the cow that calls back aggressively, and I feel like she is like, no, no, we're not doing this again, and she's gonna go in and like grab the bowl and

take off. Like when you get like that challenge back from the cow, that's like when my heart sinks and I'm like, oh boy, I'm re allowed to I'm I'm not up to snuff on this one. Like I just can't figure that one out and that has killed me several times. So what what is this? Do you guys have? Like the thing like if you hear it, you're like, well, chances are our chances just went from to like separate from your situation, Like what is our situation where you're

a bark? Yeah, well we'll follow a bark now show people are bark uh ow, that's a good bark. That's that's a really good bark. So um yeah, that's that's a great part. It kind of it kind of goes back to the why do you know how to do that? Because it's one of the required sounds during the Alcohl Yeah, yeah, you have to. You have to polish yourself. Ho do you ever screw Do you ever like mess other hunters up by getting annoyed with the hunt of the hunters

and barking before you leave? I definitely barking a cow that's barking at me. Yeah, and that's what I was gonna get back. So it's like, you can't pool their nose ever back to your guys as one of elk leaves. You can sometimes pool their eyes, but that's typically. I think when you get barked out, they've seen or heard something that's a little bit off, but they haven't smelled you. They're gonna bark at you, and then I us we

barked back at them. It's not necessarily going to save the whole situation, but it may give you just enough time to get a glimpse or to keep them around long enough before then they tear down the canyon barking everything the rest of the way out. Have you ever had have you ever been working a bowl and had a cow that's with the bull, not off to the side, but like a cow with the bull bark then you killed the bull. No, I think they've always run away.

I hate that sound. I hate it. Yeah, they're usually there's usually gone, Like I haven't even had a cow that's barked, where if she was a blood had enough time or the opportunity to shoot it, she's hung around like behind the tree that she saw me behind. Um, you know, and then or she'll maybe run up a hundred yards and keep barking at me. But it's like I would have never even had an opportunity. But do that bark again at like that bark a whole bunch.

He's barking through his beatle tube. That's like the worst noise on the planet. Why where are you enjoying it? I hate it more than a deer blowing? What about a wolf, Helen? That do you feel it shuts them down? It does my area in Idaho where which is more

wolf in fested than they where else. Elk consistently they will rip one day in the basin, but if we hear if we hear him Helen, and they're like that night when we're eating dinner, there will not be an elk are in there, or they will they will not be an that makes a sound in that base in the next morning. Um, so we'll typically just like oh, we heard him in there. We're gonna go the other way.

I've had the experience though, Man, I've packed out several bowls with wolves Howland in the base, like, and they were making noise. Oh, and it's like I think it's just like a safety and numbers thing, like, yeah, there's wolves here, but everybody's here. We got this, yeah, or the chance it'll be me. Yeah. I've had guys say that they've heard bulls bugle at the wolves. The wolves

will howl and bull just scream at them. But my experience has not been that is, if there's wolves Howland that you think a spaceship come along and took the elk away, they disappear and be quiet. I'll get up and I'll drive again to try to get completely out of their range, because you know those things will cover a lot of ground in today five fifteen miles. You know the day the wolves will will So I just get the heck out of there and find somewhere else.

I definitely use wolves against people because no matter what you see or talk about, like with the fear of wolves, either messing up a weekend or whatever, is so strong with people. Oh yeah, a lot of wolves sign up there. I'm gonna start using wolves against people too, and just bring a wolf holler with me first thing in the morning. Let a wolf holl out of the bottom. Hopefully everybody

leaves and they'll have it all to myself. Just mile up the trail and set electronic caller past so the elk didn't hear that and should be good to go. I had that this spring with turkeys. Man, we got

rights where we needed to be at first light. And we're just sitting there trying to hear the first gobble you know, in a big, nice, big Montana meadow or at the upper end of it and right on top of us, like it's you know, it always sounds like eight coyotes, probably just two or three, but just go nuts for like I mean, I'm like, all right, it's been three minutes. Come on, guys, like shut it down already. You know, I'm thinking this is just over. We should

just start hiking right now. But we wait. We let it quiet down, and thirty seconds after they quit, you know, down at that was a piss poor gobble. It was a very distant gobble. Do another one, yeh couldn't you hear it out there in the distance. Do you ever hear Yanni's way far off Elk? This is a super far away something. Guy wanted us to have a contest. He wanted contest who could make the best way far off Elk sound? Yeah, you got uh another question yet one.

I think it's easy. One guy's asking, like, how do you set up when you guys are alone? You know, like people pretty familiar with the it's easy to visualize the concept of like two guys. Right, So one guy's calling and he's trying to pull a bowl pass the shooter right, So the bowl like he's gonna he's gonna approach cautiously. He's gonna, you know, he might not want to get more than seven whatever fifty yards in that call.

And so you got your shooter out there, and um, hopefully that bow will come up and hang up and cut some half circles and he'll be right in the zone of the shooter. But when you're by yourself, what do you guys? What do you guys like to do? It depends on vegetation. Like if I can move a little bit, I'll make my first call just like it is a two color set up, and I'll move in the direction I think that thing's gonna try to circle

where I made that first call from. So if i'd eight yards and I think I can get away with like fifteen yards to my left, I'll make that call. They're knowing that the wind's going right to left, he should circle into my new location off of my first call. Um, you can't always do that, to be honest. Nine of

the bulls we call in come in straight on. You know you're playing that wind directly perfect and comes straight on the Yeah, you're not going to ma a broadside shot you They're just gonna come directly at your location on a on a one man calling set up. Um, you know your best bets hope they hold up at twenty or thirty and you know, do the pacing back and forth show themselves. Um, but we don't really I mean with a cameraman or with our caller, Like I

want to be able to communicate with my colors. Our setups are really whether there's two guys or one guy. Um, they're really similar. And we talked about that threat earlier. If you send you know, the world primos on the hill ranch scenario, I can't send my color hundred yards back because that that caller who is now the elk is no longer a threat when I'm selling back. Kind

of lost me there. So if you send your like on a two man calling set up, when you used to watch old Primos truth videos, you know they would send a guy a hundred hundred fifty yards back to call. Well, if you're a hundred yards away the colors and hundred five yards behind you when I'm trying to call a public lamb bowl, and it's really tough to to get

him to commit. Um, So we like to have that call or be this because they're they're far enough out of a circle that he's not too worried about, you know, having to defend his cows or can investigate. So we usually like to have that call right with the shooter anyways, and we can communicate that way. Um. So our single man setups are really similar. Um. You know, the caller just calls, and like I said, you can sometimes play

that win a little bit. You kind of know where you're shooting lanes are gonna be based on the wind in. But um, we're still aggressive. I'm doing the same exact thing, So I use a lot of trickery when I'm by myself hunting solo. So as as the bulls approaching, um, he gets in that sixty seventy yard range and I get that confirmation bugle where he's piste and he's coming. I might give him just one more, but at that

point I'm just I'm gonna do. You start doing some trickery where I I kind of throw my voice throw and make my call quiet. So I'll do maybe a cal call into my gloved hand. I'll have my glove on and kind to mute it, to mute it, or I'll kind of make cut my hands and force it to a different direction. Um. Or I'll take my bugle tube and aim it completely opposite of me or off to the side a little bit, whichever direction I want

him to go. Then I'll then I'll cover the into my tube with my hand a little bit and let a little air come out between my fingers, and they'll make a really quiet bugle and it'll it fools him. I've had bulls come running by me and I'll have to stop him. I'll have to scream right in their face to get him to stop and turn back around, because he thought he thinks I'm up the hill a hundred yards at that point. Yeah, so, and you can

make it pretty decent. You just don't have to use as much air and it kind of changes your air your your airflow and your back pressure dynatic dynamics in there. So you can make a pretty good bugle with that with your hand over there, those falling far away, not as far away as yon, he's bull far away, but a lot of times if you can do that, it's just like, Okay, he's not in this spot anymore. He's over here a little bit, and then they'll come walking

by and you can whack him a new one. For the national championships, you do a bull that's five miles away, he's getting closer and now I wanted a mile away. Yeah, you write that down right? Why are you? Why are you highlighting all kinds of stuff in our document? Oh, the ones that I feel like we've already gotten norse, so I can see what questions are left to hit? Which one do we not do? What's your feeling on I think you kind of answered maybe to answer this.

People are like, oh, it's pre rut, it's peak rut, post rut. Are you changing your game? Are you just out there hunting. I'm just out there hunting. I'm pretty prescriptive.

I do the same thing now if it's it's really early, you know, late August, first September, maybe a little more cal calling than typical, which is not still not very much, but you know, some of those bigger bulls are still roaming, you know, looking looking to gather up to hurt, and so I might do a little bit more you know, cal talking and being a call company owner, this kind of sucks. But a lot of times those paternable balls in in that late August, it's sometimes just better to

go kill them without making a sound. But it's it's really hard to say, really hard to say, I'd rather I'd rather call out bowl and all fired up. But if you have a specific bowl or have some elk pattern, like maybe not even make a peep and go go kill him. Really but sometimes it's not gonna sell call no. But sometimes sometimes they're on fire, you know, late August, So I mean it's kind of match what what's going

on in the area you're in. If there if you go in hu An area on August and there's not a peep, then I'm probably not gonna just hammer on my bugle all day, but um, if they're going off and then I'm gonna I'm gonna join in. Yeah, he's this the real question of a guy being kind of snarky about Phelps about the bugle every four seconds. Probably he's probably some insider that knows these guys. Can I say, can I read it how he said it? Why do all the guys that Phelps feel the need to bugle

every four seconds? Is that the voice he said it? You think I feel? I really do feel like we hit it. It's funny. I'm glad you brought it up, but we hit it right off the top because Jason said, he's like, you can't. I can't overcall when I'm trying to locate Elk and usually that's by buglin. Well that's why you highlighted that one. Yeah, if anybody's ever been in a real rut fest with Elk, bulls will bugle every five seconds. Literally when they're on fire and and

like chasing the hot cow or whatever. I mean, there'll be bulls people every five seconds. I've had bulls come from a quarter mile away bogle almost every step. Just just man, this is gonna happen, you know, So I think you can't really over bugle at the right times. You can sure to overdo it at other times at the wrong times. Just it it's situational and it kind of depends on on where you're at in your conversation with your elk. And we do I mean that that question,

you know, it's probably very directed. Um. You know, we've I think all of us everywhere we've been, you know, we were heavy on the bagles. Everything we teach is heavy bugling. And I think people can get frustrated because we're out there. They think, you know, we're overcalling or telling people they should overcall. And then there's just right times, like we're not out there just buggling, you know from the truck window or doing this stuff you're not supposed to.

It's it's somewhat calculated. We're trying to bugle in the new basins. But I just I don't think you're educating them until that, you know, you either call them in and windham, um, you know, if they've been messed with. But at the point where you're just if you sound enough like an elk, you're just basically saying, hey, I'm up here. You're wanting to get a response, hand him down here or you know, or hey, I'm over here. Um, I don't, and it's hard. I mean, we're just speculating

what's going on. But I don't think you can shut down a complete area just by over biggling if you sound like an elk, you know, from from maybe an outsider's perspective. Let's say this guy's watching you from the other side of the base and the other side of the drainage, and he's watching you walk up the hill and you bugle every every two minutes. A guy, a person here is watching you, and you're like walking over here in your bugle, and you're walking over here, and

you seem like that guy needs a shut up? Why is he bigling so much? But on your side, you're looking at train features. Okay, you're up on a on a ridge. You're bugling down into these canyons. Right. Well, if I walk a hundred yards this way, I've got a little different angle down into this draw We're I'm bugle into you know, I've had this before. We're I couldn't hardly hear a bull walk a hundred yards and

then wow, I can hear him really well? Um, yeah, I mean it's crazy hunting with two dudes where the guy who's five ft ten feet up the mountain above you, it's like did you hear that? You know? And I'm down below and being like hear what makes to each other on the trail talking All of a sudden, it's like three guys also, two of them frantically point in

some directions. Every one was like what yeah, yeah, He's like you're like in the middle of a thaw or you're getting d you know what I mean, whatever, man, you just it's just different. I liken it to fishing. I mean, you don't just go up to your fishing spot, throw one cast out and be like, yeah, no fishing here. I mean you you cast this way, every little bit, you cover that entire little spot where you're standing in the river before you ever move, you go up, you know,

however far to start casting again. It's the same with elk counting. I mean, you gotta probe every little spot. There might be a bullet can't hear you, or you can't hear him and it's like, oh, there he is. Or many times you know, you locate, locate, locate, You might be six hunder yards on the trail and one answers you know, right back to the spot you bugle

three or four times ago. It's just you don't know where they're eating, what they're doing, if they're paying attention, or just didn't feel like answering you when you were that close. So what does why do you? What does all the guys that felps mean? How many guys are there? I know, your mind, your wife are there? They call it too much. I think it's more of our our end users, you know, the I think we get you

and your your disciples. Yeah, yeah, I mean all of us, us, the born and raised crew, you know Derk, all of us that that teach and hunt the way we do, and you know we we bugle a lot. So I think they're they're they're lumping the crew and who uses our stuff? And and yeah, there's there's different camps in the way to hunt. Right there's the guy that I never bugle, I just caw call. And there's the guys that say, I never make an ELK call at all. I just shadow the herd and I wait for my opportunity.

And then there's our camp that bugles all the time. So they're probably saying, yeah, those helps guys. Yeah, if you guys kill like a shipload elk every year, we try like between you guys and been born and raised, like, I don't think there's a reason to be like starting about why you guys called too much. It works, It works. I mean I think it's just people maybe get a little bit disgusting, you know, somebody's in the area and

then just people biggling all over it. And so I think it's just kind of generated that that hate for bugles. You've heard that for, Yeah, I mean in Colorado last year, I mean we were we were trying to chase the real bull why trying to avoid like the three other fake bugles that were chasing us, and we're trying to stay between them and the bull that we got going.

It was just, I mean, there are a lot of guys out there bugling in some of these areas, and so I can see why, Hey, everybody, just put your tubes away. But you know this one time in Idaho, was hunting with Corey Jacobson and Donnie Drake and we got back to the pickup and there was a note on the pickup and said, if you guys were hunting up the basin. This morning, you bagle way in in capital letters, way too much. With bogle the normal amount you can go up the basin, you cover around, you

make a big loop. You know you're probe and you're listening for Elkin. I mean, we didn't bugle excessively in our mind, but that guy was probably like, listen to those idiots down there, divisive. Yeah you guys build a new uh you build a new facility. Yeah yeah, a new shop, new warehouse, office space. Finally, um, make us way more efficient. Still got a day job. We have part time, part time training my replacement. But um, it's about training to replace. Yeah. It's about a two year process.

So what we do is not like you know that much stuff. Well yeah, well it's just it's not normal and it's cyclical. So you're always doing something as a granty eight, you know, you write grants and interview grants, so it's like, well on this day, you don't do the same thing you do like next week. So it takes about two years to go through and and figure it out. So hopefully when that's all done, we'll look

at reducing the time there. I love seeing it though, man, like someone like built you know it's also making a cool little business. And I'm just I just saverboded a Dirk. Now he'll take care of you. I'm busy. Now he does. Um what else we got, Yannie? I'm getting into Yanni's brain a little bit here by looking at how he highlights stuff. I would think that one, in my mind, one highlights things that are meant to pay attention to.

Yanni highlights things that you're supposed to ignore. So if Yanni left you a note and highlighted parts of it, you think that he was highlighting the parts that's highlighting. He's actually highlighting the parts that are at least important. Yanna's just switched to a black highlights real quick scratch out. You might you might want to find a strikeout feature. Yeah, that's pretty, that's like, yeah, you just figured it out.

So highlight means that we're done with it. Uh So the fact that it's not highlighted makes me feel that Yanni wants to talk about this is good. Hit him with number twenty three, Yanni, number Oh, would you rather call a bull uphill or downhill? Downhill? Side hill? That's not an option? I need straight question because for me, it's it doesn't matter. It's like, well, whatever the wind's doing,

that's gonna be. I mean, let's assume that the winds good in both those situations that I, in my opinion, calling bull's downhill. They've got gravity on their side. You know, two bulls that think they're gonna posture up. That bull coming from uphill towards downhill has got the advantage at that point. Um, so I think he'll come more easily down. Yeah, because he's got an advantage with gravity on his side. YEA.

If I was on a steep pitch and I was supposed to fight, Yannia, be like, I'll take the uphill, see exactly. Oh yeah, that's a good point. Now why do you like sidehilling? Um? Okay, so you have your thermals to go up and down. Okay. So let's say here, it is two o'clock in the afternoon. You got this bull going, You get on the side hill from him. Okay, it's easy for him to come straight straight across to you, which they prefer. Most elk trails do come across the hill.

That's a good point. So it's very easy. Make it easy for him to come to you. And also you're you're you're strategizing with the wind. So it's the middle of the day, got a warm hill side, you got thermal's going up. All of a sudden, big cloud comes over.

Where what's the thermals do? They go back downhill? Sometimes they swirl a little bit, but hardly to do that if you go straight sideways, so you're kind of stack on that wind in your favor um to where you know if the wind has change that or if your side hill. Let's say that bull drops, you can drop really quickly to try to get on his same level again and so he don't get your wind, or you can climb and not as far if he if he's

trying to go above you and get you. I'm feeling yeah, you know, it's funny talk about like how trails, Uh you guys ever spent much time in wild Pig country because you get used to how trails are on hills always angles like they either side hill they cut those like switchback angles. You know, all your trails hither like that, and wild Pig country see trails just going smack up hills.

Oh wow, trails like running straight up hill and don't even think about and you look as like that's the weirdest looking trail because you realize how many trails are like shallow, you know, shallow crisscross you kind of networks. Okay, so there's that one. I like seven. I do too, But they already answered it. We gonna ask it again, though they answering in a roundabout way. Is blind cow calling while creeping through the woods a good tactic? What

I'll do rather than creep through the woods. Let's say I haven't heard any bulls and I'm just covering country. I'm going from point A to point B, and I don't want to be quiet because I gotta get there. So as I'm walking along, stomping on brush and kicking rocks and stuff, I'll just throwout a couple of cow calls every little bit that and and a lot of times, even just walking through the woods popping brush without a cow call, you'll get a bullet. It's close by. He'll

fire up and be like, hey, you're an elk. I know it is. It's gotta be you located my bolosh in Colorado when we're just walking through calcul one was a cow calor bugle? Thank you? Cal called. They're just one stimond he answered. Here's a good one. I like this one. What about a guy that's uh, let's say, uh, you were on a cow tag. What do you bring out in the woods for calls exact same spike or cows. I'm still gonna locate that herd ball or get able

to answer because the cows are going to be around here. Yeah,

so at least start the game the same. You're still gonna move in get the win, right, so you're out of the cow tag, you bring in your bugle, ye, I mean because you you the game is still the same right until the end of you know how, you're gonna kill that cow and then I would probably keep that bull bugle and then just more spot and stock at that point, just try to squeeze in close enough to the herd to get a shot versus calling that bowling.

That's interesting. Same with spike hunters. You know, get hey, we can only hunt spikes and each from Washington this year. What should I do by pretend like you're unting the herdball right till the end and then caw call him in, but then don't shoot him. Yeah. I don't know how many times I've had spikes come around and then just like, oh man, there's somebody else over hey man, and then too late. So seriously, like you go out like I'm hunting a cow tag or whatever you got, and you're

bugling to find Elk. Oh yeah, I mean I would still glass first. Thing, Like if I didn't have to make a sound, it would be ideal. But um say they're all, you know, going to timber in the bras, you can't spot them anymore. I would just go back to locate and just like hunting big bulls. Hmm, it's gonna that's gonna piss a lot of people off because they're gonna have all the cow hunters out there. But

that's interesting, man, that's interesting. Or I mean you don't after being a bagle, you can you know, you can chase the real bagles that you hear without locating them. But I just feel like you can force her hand, force him to make sound a little bit better if you had the location bogle with you. Yeah, I'm liking that number thirty. That's boring. Different whatever you want answer, my answer will be boring. That's a good question. Are

there different calling Roosevelt Elk versus a copy? Yeah? Minds how highlighted though our guests are prepared. I don't think you should give him a copy of the question. Dude, how are we gonna get a gotcha moment? You got plenty of So the difference between Roosevelt and Rocky I was fortunate if UM grew up in the little body gave you a copy of the questions he wanted us to be prepared. We had to, We had to google

all these Well, the do you find your ant attractive? Question? Yeah, hold on, that can be a bit of a gotcha. So growing up, you know, an hour from the coast of Washington, grew up, all I knew was Roosevelt hunting. UM fortunate enough in the last ten years to get the hunt Rockies. They sound exactly the same. We call

them exactly the same. The one main difference I feel in the areas I've hunted is that the Rockies aren't really tied down to a necessarily a court area, um, where like Roosevelt's they will live their entire life in a one mile one and a half mile circle. Um. Is the main difference is that right for the most part. So like you, I hear that about I hear that about black Tales in the rainforest two people top all he'll have a zone man and that's where he lives. Yea,

the same with our elk. We grew up as a rifle muzzlier hunter. Like you spooked the elk, like you might as well, just the way they went turned around and walked the circle backwards and we went. They're they're trying to get back to where you know you spooked him and get back to their core piece of timber. And um, we're rockies. It's like you bump them in the next time you see them, like five miles away running the next ridge. Still they're just gonna go find

a new place to live, you know, or whatever. But that that that's the main difference. Like Colling is the same our our Roosevelt's chuckle more, I think, um sometimes you know, I would say half the bulls don't even get a high note vehgle. They just did chuckle um, which is a little bit of a difference. But you know, other than that, they all sound the same. Yeah, I've never hunted Roosevelts, so I can't really comment on that. What are the main states you like to hunt? Um Love, Wyoming,

um hunter, Montana wants. I'd like to hunt in Arizona some day, but Idaho's basically might go to because I live there, you know, hunt close to home, and it's probably the worst elk hunting in Idaho right there club us. But um, it's close and I know the area and and it's easier to get away, you know. Speaking of getting away, guy wanted to know what's the best way to ask my wife to extend a hunting trip without getting in trouble. All that is, um is preparation before

hunting season ever gets there. That's all the lead up. So you pay your dues, all winner all summer. Yeah, with your wife. You you do all those things with your wife, you know, let her know, like, hey, I really like to take an extended vacation this year elk hunting. And then so you start, you start laying the groundwork win as soon as you know you're gonna go hunt and say I'm gonna do this is my plan this year. And then but that you know, I'm gonna make sure

you get you're into the deal good too. Yeah yeah, toe you're out of your hair. Yeah, they're out of the hair. One of them is making his own money. And my daughter she still in college so pretty soon maybe we'll get him off the payroll. So now you're only But that's what I'm talking about. Man, you got all that over with, right, forty five and I got the whole deal ahead of me. But the bad part is being forty five and being an empty nester is now,

who are my friend options? Like, hey, let's go hang out? Well, I can't all my people my age, they got little kids, so well we got baseball, we got this or that one. Now it's like old retirees, you know, like sixty year olds, like, hey, you want to go? I don't know. I don't think I couldn't do. You got guys like year old, Yeah, true, true, they're interested. Now yeah, there you go there. So okay, so I want to get back. I needed to get a better snapshot of what because if you're like divorced

three times, right, yeah, I pay attention. I just had to get that. I had to find out what we're talking, what we're what we're working with here. So you're saying that you're real upfront. Yeah you're like, come September or whatever, here's what's gonna happen. But I'm gonna I'm gonna really throw down hard on husbanding. Yeah, yeah, I say, honey, I'm gonna do anything you want to do the rest of the year, but please let me have my time in September or whatever hunt months you're hunting. Let me

have my time. Then I was just gonna say, you don't even have to request like an extra couple of days. You're just calling and check it in and saying, hey, I'm gonna be home Friday instead of Wednesday. Right, what's the thing you did, um to earn hunting time? Uh? What's the thing you did that was you feel the most out of character for you? Oh? Um, I don't know.

Go to the big city, you know, go go take a trip to Seattle, Washington or something and and hang out and walking walk up and down the wharf there and check things out. That's not my cup of tea at all. You're cool about it. Yeah, right, you're like, man, this is the best time. I'm like complain a little

bit in Seattle. Well, you know, it's just horrible, but um yeah, but I yeah, I pay those dudes because I want to make sure that And and it's the great thing about my wife is she she understands men. Neither time me neither time to kind of get away from things, the pressures of life and kind of decompress, find themselves a little bit in the woods. And then because she knows, when I come back, I'm better. I'm usually better, you know, I'm a better person. I've I've

kind of left some things behind. Um, I feel like, okay, now I can focus on other things other than just got all this stuff about hunting in my head. I think that it's helpful. There's a game you play, like if you've got the break to your spouse that you're going to do something that's gonna leave them, you know, it's gonna leave them in a troubled spot. Meaning like for us in my marriage, it's not about that you're gone. It's not that that you're absent and I miss you.

It's that there's a lot that has to happen because we're raising young kids, right, So you know, if I if I had to worry about that, it wouldn't really matter at all. Right, Like we were kind of you know, we have our lives and we're cool with each other, and you know it's like if if I don't see my wife for a while, it's right, I don't need to worry what she's up to. Right, there's a lot of trust and faith, but to leave, you're sort of saying, like,

I'm taking off. We won't see each other. That's cool, but I realized that while I'm gone, you're dealing with a lot, you know, yeah, a lot of responsibility. It's like a lot taking her little kids are heard. But uh so you wind up battling in your head between this thing of down playing how long you be gone

or over playing how long you be gone. So you're sort of like you want to leave and everything's cool, right, it's like, oh, yeah, probably just two three days because they're like, oh, that's not so bad, right if and then you feel that then if you want to stay longer, you're like, dah, I wish I would have been more truthful, But had I been more truthful, then I might not have left with the good blessing. Right. It's like you

you're gambling. You're gambling the way because you could come and be like, I'm going ten days and then they're annoyed and you come back earlier and it's cool, but you're you're up in the chance that you're gonna leave and they're already annoyed. Yeah, it's kind of a tough one.

A lot of times, like when the kids were little, Um, we would take the whole fam damnly to to help camp and Mama and the kids would hang out camp and getting the dirt and dig and build spears and do whatever else kids do it at a little kid age. And I go hunting, and I come back sometimes head out in the morning, come back and sometimes come back around lunch and go and then go back for an evening hunter. Sometimes you'll be gone all day, depending on

where the spot I was gonna hunt. Um. But that made a big difference too, because that that engages them, that gives them something fun to do that The kids love being being there. They understand what dad's doing. Um. And then um, as the teenagers got as they got teenagers, you know, then they have other responsibilities. You know, they're they're playing sports and stuff like that, and it's tough for them to get away to go hunting with dad. Um. So yeah, that's why I don't think that's that's a

good idea. Yeah. I always said we should have had our kids be bookworms, you know, and just like hell, yeah, man, heck with sports, you know, dirt bikes and and four wheelersion and scheduling and just where you can just go and enjoy the outdoors. That's the way to do it. That's definitely the way to do it. Why don't know, Janni, they're supposed to have a far off bugle comp Someone

actually asked for this. They wanted to be honest, Dirk and Jason to do a no call whistling only who can do the best way far off elk oh, I got this? Oh you did you do this too? Like when I tell a story, you know, okay, I've only happened. I've told this story once before. It's only worked once for me. But we were walking along the area you actually did, says a hunch along as the irrigation along in the irrigation ditch and George Brown leave his name was.

He's like, have you ever heard of guys whistling for tbugle bulls? It's like no, never have its like give a shot, you know just what kind of stood there? And all of a sudden I just hear hoofs coming and coming up the hill. I mean there's calves and cows and I can see a brand Chandler bull coming and they literally ran by us and just went on up the timber and we had and it was late in the morning, so we're like, all right, we'll come back, and we got we know where there's out for the

evening hunt. But I don't think I've ever gotten response since, and it was just coincidence. I've never got a response one that's a whole different approach it again. Read yeah, my west line working. That doesn't have that that lonesome distant sound. It's got the reverb though. James Phelps, Wow, that was pretty sight the chap Man, it was really it was really windy. Word. I can't whistle? Apparently I

can't either. That's going it's some kind of weird bird seth whistle man, I can't wis had a wooden whistle, but it wouldn't whistle. That was the thing my dad used to say. One last fun one, if you could only hunt with one September fift would you bring your binos or bring your calls? Calls? Calls? Where's that question? Steve bos Are called, did you say a date? Yes, September fifteen? He doesn't say a date. Why are you corrupting? The person's question? Is the crowdsourced or not. It is.

I'm just making it better. I'm hunting on September fifteen, and I could have my vinyals or my calls. I'll have my calls because I'm presumably bow hunting. Yea, yeah, i'd be fine. Oh yeah, I can locate out just fine with my with my eyeballs. And if it was November one, everybody would choose binoculars. November one, I'm switching, so it was a time of year when you'd go out with your nyals and not your calls. That's true.

Calls salesman, you could be doing some reverse psychology right now like that and earlier saying that in August, late August, you might not use a call at all, because then people are gonna be like, I trust this person. Yeah, that's that's what I'm doing. I'm gonna buy his calls because he's not slimy and ye but I actually went up selling. We should back that up. He's pretty trustworthy. Fella. Oh, I think it's I think it's obvious he wouldn't be

in here hanging out if you was slimmy. I think from this conversation, you just call vortex, you get a collap go on and you integrate a call into the buyos bagle to BUYO are you blow into the eyepiece in it and it doesn't fog up? Okay? What else? We got anything? Questions? Anybody else? Seth cal you anything you want to add or ask? M No, no, no, I mean I like like all this stuff. Do questions for you. Someone wants to know if you have any plans for a fawn and distress call for black tails.

We've got one cal last time we talked about this on the podcast. I think I sold all of them we had. Um, no, we've We've got a phone in distress call already. That really I go out and play with the does and phones in my yard right now and it's it's the coolest thing ever. I have, uh, a bit of a hoarding problem with these calls because I do find a blow them out. Um they're awesome

though they would the best. I love them. And we can, I mean that's the one thing to get that phone distress as perfect as a pretty light read, but we can. We also offer replacement reads to see in a tool just there. Yeah, what are you using those? Like? You know what hunting situation? I started messing around with him a lot um with mule deer and like during rifle season, and I started and then like, there there's no better

tool for black bear hunting. I absolutely love them for black bear because it solves some issues I find that immature bears. It's very similar to like when you're calling out one of the scenarios that you guys described, but when you're kind of ringing a dinner bell with highly competitive predators, only the big ones are going to come into that phone call. And typically from what I've seen

totally anecdotal, typically from what I've seen, their bores. One time, I was I had a fun distress call and I was in southeast Alaska and I was creeping up on a bear and I got where he was down in a channel. There's a big grass flat like an estuary, and he's down a channel. I couldn't see him. And I was like, oh, well, the call and he'll obviously come running up out of there. And I started blowing the call and out of the woods across the grass flat.

Out of the woods comes uh blacktail dough piste runs right through where I thought the bear was, crosses the channel, pops up on my side right in my face, stomps all around, gets all mad, goes back the where she came from, and I'm like, oh, so something obviously happened. The bear's gone or whatever he would she would have come through there, And I walk over and look down

in that bear is still sitting there eating grass. So not only was he not interested in the call, he was not interested in the piste off dough that basically ran him over and never broke stride. Yeah, it's like it's so hard to tell. And then the thing that makes the thing so funny, it's the same trip we had one trying to climb in the boat with us where we pulled up and I just like beach the boat.

Didn't even get out of the boat and blew a call and you can't shoot from a boat there, blew a call and I'm up in the front of boat, my buddies in the back, so it's real deep, you know, And uh, I started we were like watching his bear, and we kind of lost track him. So he knows the boat up into the gravel and I'm just standing on the front seat and I started calling and this bear is like I'm gonna get it, Like he looked like he's gonna get in the boat, and I'm telling

my buddy get out of the boat and shoot. But it's real deep where we pulled up. Remember, Like, who care he didn't want to jump out because he'd got so wet if he jumped out of the boat. But it's like the different moods they're in and you know what I mean, like what they got going on, it's so funny, like the different attitude because that fun and distress called to like I've hit it at times and seen reform of life run out of the canyon as

fast as possible. Yeah, they're killing stuff in here, exactly, everybody out. It's like that scene in uh was that Ballad of Buster scribed the Ballad of Buster scrob Yeah, when the when the minor when Tom Waits rolls into the base. Yeah, that's great. Alright, Any closers, what's new? What's anything on the horizon. We're gonna we're gonna work on the Deer coal line, Predator coal line. We've got a few new things, um on the Olt coal line. But um, you know, just just going down that road

trying to kind of fill in the rest. And we've been been pretty busy on the turkey on the olt call side, and then just trying to kind of wrap up the whole line from start to finish. So we're just you're gonna put some pressure on test a bunch of new products as falling, then hopefully have some releases next year. You know what calls you think of you

in our call, I think you ought to do. I think you should devote some time to uh make and blue grouse calls who no, no, no, no, not not a rough grouse drumming, but blue grouse for spring blue grouse hunting in Alaska, and you can make the female call. M. This is the whole thing. Listen, this is like what I'm telling you right now. What I'm telling you right now.

It would be like if let's let's imagine that it's and I said, you know what someone ought to do is find a way to make a elk bugle noise. I'm giving you that right now. All right, all right, we're gonna I'm giving you that right now. I'm telling you something that's gonna like paying your time capsule will open it in thirty years and you'll be like, man, I can't believe I didn't do it. Because it turned into this huge thing and I had it laying right and I had it later right in my lap. Don't

ignore that. Seek a deer market in Maryland either, Yeah, so I that might be something because those guys all run around with your kidding. They run around with European made calls. You can't have that, God bless America. Yeah, don rome fells the old Europe We've we've been, so you guys are all over this. No that look that up YouTube sounds just like it. No, because we're pros man. We've heard him. You've heard him many many many times.

And one thing he doesn't something like that way too elaborate. In Maryland they go three packs, not nearly that long. So I got a guy hunting in New Zealand. We know, oh that might be holding his sounds just like that. No, they're like three little shorts toilet water spins the opposite way down there too. All right, So, um, you're not you're you're You're probably gonna get get into the blue the blue grouse, not blue, asked the blue grouse market. Well,

it's ducks like ducks. We have duck calls. I'm not a die hard duck guy. Um, so I reached out to some guys in Oregon, Eric Strand. So, Eric Strands kind of in charge of our duck call um waterfowl goose call line. So I've kind of like to stay in your lane. Pay. I don't want to try to pretend like I know what I'm doing on that side. Um, I'll go shoot them if they call him in for me,

but I don't do that. Um, but we are, we're filling in outside so cool, Eric sans, So you need to be you want to be like a full one stop shop. Yeah, I just want to fill all the lines in and get the right people. Like I said, I'm a turkey elk, a little bit of predator guy. You know, I'm comfortable in that sector. But um, in order to bring some of these other things, and I'm just gonna go find the best people that I can. So he's really good, really accomplished waterfowl caller, and and

knows how to build him and tunes him. He tunes all of our waterfowl calls right now. So Dirt got the concluders. You know what a concluder is? Final thoughts? Oh, that's exactly what it. Um. I think people give up on trying to learn how to call it up too quick. Um, they might their buddy says, hey, go get X call and try it. It works awesome, and they try it, they suck. They can't do it, so they're like, yeah,

it ain't for me. You hear this a lot. You go to trade shows, like I can't do these calls, and you hand one to a guy and kind of coach them a little bit, and pretty soon they're making noises and like, wow, I think I might be able to do this after all. So um, people just give up pretty quick. I'm calling elkin. I mean, the best part about calling out because it's super fun. I mean, you know, it's a it's a it's a means to

an end. I mean, you're trying to take a take a beautiful elk home with you and have some delicious food. But um, it's sure it's fun too. It's it's like the best time you can have. There might not be any more fun to be had in the hunting universe. Absolutely, you kind of stole my concluer. I'm gonna keep it. I'm gonna reuse it. Well, how long you've been practicing I've been doing this thirty years I've been calling out for thirty years, Um, and when did you stop improving?

I get better every year. I pick up little things that like, Wow, that Elk did this, and like I try to do it. You know, I'm big on, you know, trying to mimic the alphabet because I want to sound like an ELK. I don't want to set you sound like me. So I'll try to pick up little things for Milk all the time. Um. I feel like we kind of make the same old rookie mistakes every year, just like everybody. But but but you you'll learn a lot every year. So um yeah, but I think, you know,

people just give up on it too quick. Like, you know, put some effort into it. It doesn't take an hour a day of practicing. If you practice five minutes a day, three times a week, you're starting. You'll start building that muscle memory of what to do with that call. When you get in your mouth and you start in January, by September, you're gonna be able to make some pretty darn good Elk noises. Especially with what the world we

live in. I mean, we have YouTube and the Internet and there's all this information on how to use calls. We didn't have that one I as a kid. I mean, I had Larry D. Jones videos to watch and and try my best to make it and elp noise. When I first started all hunting, I hadn't even heard a really elk bugle before before September first, you know, And that was the first time I heard an elk bugle. And I'm like, Okay, I getta figure that I sound different, but I'm gonna try to figure it out. By the

end of that season, I sounded pretty good. You know, all things considered, caught on pretty good. But people just need to to to practice, not give up, and have faith in their calls. What do you got, seth is about trip problem beavers? Yeah exactly. Um, send us your problem beaver spots, send us an email. You know, we politest. We'll bring you some cook beaver meat. No road messing, no road messing. Yeah, we're the real deal, you know, fostering.

We'll bring little kids out, cute little kids out, introducing kids to the wa. He's gotta come up with a name for your operation, oh man, flip flop flash or yeah, do you any other concluder stuff? Um, I'm pretty stowed for elk season. Now after all that just got you fired up? Oh yeah, yeah, I do. Um yeah. Here in that first bugle from from Jason, that's it, Like I like the elk noises make me start thinking about what the hell am I doing this office? You just

started getting ready. I would recommend all the people that are all fired up right now and they're going to uh Phelps's website to buy themselves a gray and a black am they should also get one of Phelps's external read single read cal calls. You guys call it the the easy astress. Can you get the different with or is that you got a call that's kind of special order? But we're pretty we've got great customer service here. Just let us know, I mean, put it in the comments.

We do make a bunch of stuff, but I just didn't want to skew ourselves. If you want something different, one of deeper sounding calcoul let us know and we'll make it happen. Yeah, but that's it to me, that's a pretty easy call to I think for beginners and some people that if you're just really struggling with the gag thing and you're just you know, diagragms aren't going for it. Man, those external reads I don't leave home

with that. Yeah, they're super effective. My concluders is a note on calling in general, where it's easy to view when you start out hunting or you start out trying to hunt something new, it's easy to view it as it's all about the end. You know. Um, it's just like what I'll do whatever I need to do to try to get one. And you think about when we first started hunting turkeys. You know, we were aware that calling turkeys was the thing, but we just bushwhag them.

We get we find one goblin, we glass one up and belly crawling on wait from to make a mistake and um, and then later when you realize like like to call something. Ah, man, it's just different. It's so much more fun. And when you learn how to do,

it's effective. And it's like there's certain scenarios. You know, if you lay your decoys out and you're calling ducks and you can you keep getting like birds coming in with cupped wings and the birds coming with cuped wings, and you wind up at the end of the day whatever, you got four of them, and you could have got four jump shooting. It's just different. It's so much more fulfilling.

It's like you're just seeing It's like you're seeing something happen and the and oftentimes these things wind up helping you have more end result too, even though it takes longer to get there. I'm very happy that, uh, to have UM, very happy to have like figured that out with turkeys, figure that out with ducks. We used to belly crawl ducks when we were kids with belly crawl ducks and jump shoot us. But then later like taking the time to learn how to call him. It my god,

just so much more. It's so much more rewarding and why and as far as exhilaration, UM, in the hunting world, even beyond the hunt world, to have a you know, some six seven pound bowl screaming in your face is just like it is unnerving in the best possible way. And you fooled that wild animal to come into your calls, that's that's the best. If I don't take him home with me, that's okay. But I fooled that sucker into

coming in and I saw him. It's almost like counting coup on him, you know, And it's almost it's almost like that, you know, it tests your metal man, like I don't care. You might think you have nerves and steel, you know, but uh, when that's going on, it's so

hard to keep your head together. I'm sure it gets less, but it's just like you're just like, wow, this thing is it's just like this deafening sound from this huge slobbering you know what I mean, snapping trees and half with his antlers, and it's just it's really something to see. It's really something to see. Anything else. Oh, plug the newsletter on it. Last, but not least, you should go to the Mediator website and sign up for the newsletter. Get it once a week. Keep up on everything we've

got going on here at meat Eater. Yeah, go to www. Dot the meat eater dot com. Um, go on and give us a five star review click the right most star. But if you're listening there on through iTunes or Apple and you find us on social uh like Instagram, A whole bunch at Stephen Ronella the Eagle is at Janice Poodles, Janice underscore. That's right, Janice uh Cal is at O cal four oh six right O l c A L four oh six seth at signs on the score West.

That's true. I keep thinking he's a sign builder. I know he's talking about beaver sign signs, underscore what he's looking for. Sign Oh, I like that. I like that. You guys do you guys are on the Instagram? Yeah yeah, we were pretty active, lots of inspiring bull bull out photos. Yeah yeah. The battle between our our calls is alive and well. But we're at Phelps game calls, Phelps game calls, and I'm at the Bugler one word yea all again most portantly uh newsletter www dot the me eater dot

com and again felps game calls. Good dudes, the Bugle too much, but they're good. But they're good dudes. Thanks for having us. It's awesome. Se