On The Matt Gates Show in partnership with the Zero Hedge Debates, Tonight, we are spending the entire hour with two experts who will debate whether the United States should use military force to overthrow Nicholas Maduro in Venezuela.
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It's great. Matt Gates.
Good evening, and welcome to a special edition of The Matt Gates Show. In partnership with Zero Hedge Debates tonight, we're doing something a little bit different, and in this partnership with zero Hedge, a great website, we're going to be able to have an exciting discussion. Zero Hedge Debates brings smart folks together to challenge conventional wisdom and discuss the major policy questions of the day on a variety of digital platforms. Tonight, we ask this question, should the
United States overthrow the Maduro regime with military force? Taking the affirmative in this debate is an annual rincone, founder of Regional Renaissance Consulting taking the negative is Kurt Mills, executive director of the American Conservative I'm former Congressman Matt Kates.
I'll be your moderator. The debate begins now.
Each side is afforded a four minute opening statement, and we begin with the manual rincone.
So thank you for having me, Matt. I'm gonna share some notes with you. Venezuela has the largest prove in oil reserve in the world, contains seventeen percent of all the oil in the world, is top ten worldwide in iron reserves, in aluminum, in gold, and also have the largest gas reserve in the region. Is geographically well positioned to supply the US with oil and gas, and also have an enormous rare air potential that kins also supplied
the US for technology and military capacity. But right now we have Nicholas Maluro in power, of course, and Maduro has given passport to his Bola terrorI Since twenty ten, Maduro his Vola and hm us operating in our territory harbor in Middle East terrorist groups. He has also given two point five million acres to Iran, supposedly to agricultural issues. But you know who is there and what they are doing there. We got Russian and Cuan intelligence protecting the regime.
But who is sending right now in this moment eighty one percent of the oil to China and it's also sending drugs and criminals to the United States. And I know what the other party is going to say, but hey,
it's only cocaine. I know the alternship in the cocaine, but the cocaine is being mixed with the fentol and the ventomy least the one that is killing people with the cocaine also, So according to the FBI, according to buy the FBI, it is only from five to eight percent, but the last measure from the Trump administration in twenty twenty one said that it's like twenty or twenty five percent of the drugs that is sent into the United States.
So I really don't get how anyone can think that is in the national interest of the United States for Maduro to stay in power in Venezuela.
Thank you, and now we'll go to Kurt Mills for a four minute opening statement.
Kurt, you recognized.
Cool, so obviously rebut some of Whatmaniel just said as we get through, but I think it's the first important index on the obvious parallel. The last time the US engaged in such an open regime changed posture, and that of course was the war in I Rock. And I'm not saying that this is necessarily going to be a complete reducts of a rock, but history doesn't repeat it oft in rhymes, as they say, and they say that
for a reason. It's a cliche for a reason. And in some respects this already has the portense of being potentially dumber than a rock. Some of the lying by fastest of the administration. I don't think the president per se, but members of his administration is even more outrageous. The main cause of spell as a manual just discussed there. The fentanyl is provably false, and I think it's important
to contrast it because they say what you will. For the Iraq war propagators, they at least believe the WMD you claims. Even opponents of the war believed it. Then number two, it's even less popular. This is openly for elite interest groups. This is openly for frankly recent immigrants in the United States who want to topple dictators and
places that they've fled. Imagine if European immigrants had done this in the nineteenth century at the US foreign policy have been weaponized to do regime change in London or Rome or Berlin. That is obviously an inappropriate use of US power. Number Three, this is actually closer to home, and so the risks are considerable. We messed up in Iraq, we messed up at Vietnam, but they were thousands of miles away.
Four.
The Godfather offers, so to speak, given by Caracas seems even better and more open than what Saddam offered in two thousand and two. In two thousand and three, and yet we're ignoring it. If the goal is to drive let's say, foreign hostile actors out of the region, if the goal is to drive Chinese companies out of the region, we have that offer now, and we're ignoring it anyways.
And number five, I think that people driving this in the administration Hegseeth, the Secretary of War, Secretary of Defense, and Rubio, I just have to say, in a lot of ways, plainly less prepared for this moment than Rumsfeld or Colin Powell were. Hegseth is a neophi compared to Rumsfeld, and I think clearly sees a means of political survival by you know, knocking down drug boats. But knocking down drug boats is one thing. Doing regime change in a
large and complex country like Venezuela is another. And Rubio, for all of his talents, is not a veteran, is not a former Joint chiefs of staff Sherman and Powell had his reservations. I think also very importantly, just to just get out of the way, you know, as I believe he is, Manuel is going to has already advanced
foreign influence in Venezuela is actually trivial. The regime is so incapable of effectively managing the country that countries like China and Russia and Iran have already significantly reduced their presence there. Additionally, this idea that the major regime is provoking refugee crisis that will get worse of time, the US border has already been slammed shot by the Trump administration.
The status quo in terms of inflow of refugees and infro of migrants that the United States can accommodate is already fine. Additionally, the idea that conducting regime change in Venezuela will be trivial, some compare it to the Panama scenario. Venezuela is many, many, many times larger than Panama with the hw Bush administration engaged in nineteen eighty nine, and the principal danger in Venezuela is a dramatic expansion of
cartels in the power vacuum. Finally, unless I'm being cut off, I can.
Know you've got about thirty seconds.
Go right ahead, okay.
In an American there's there's the argument that the an American intervention in Venezuela cannot be regime changed because the Venezuelan government.
Is already an illegitimate regime.
I have no doubt that Emmanuel is going to be passionate about how illegitimate Nicholas Maduro is.
But legitimacy of the.
Regime is irrelevant in a regime change war. China is not a democratic, democratically legitimate country, and this is not a good reason for the US declare war on it.
Thank you, Emanuel, you've taken the affirmative position in this debate that we should use the military to dislodge Maduro from power. What would that military campaign look like? Would it be Tomahawk missiles landing in Caracas, Special forces extraction amphibious assault. Explain how we do the thing you're saying we should do.
Listen, Matt, it doesn't necessarily have to be a military issue. I mean, Nicolas Maluke in nagoshe then get a Venezuela if he wants. The problem is that they do not want to. And the other thing that I want to clarify is that it's funny for me that the people that are complaining about the supposed military action in Venezuela are always compared in Venezuela with Libya and Iraq and Afghanistan and those countries that doesn't have anything to do
with Venezuela. I don't know why they're not comparing Venezuela with Panama and Chile or Colombia or these countries that are receiving health from the US military standpoint to get not only democracy, but but security for the for the hemisphere. So I mean, Venezuela is a country that has right now like ninety ninety five percent for population, is a Christian country. I mean, we are not divided. We're not going to have a civil war in Venezuela. Something blows
up in the country. So it is really fool to say that on the other way, I mean there could be like anything. I mean, I don't think that president term has to put like foots on the ground. I think that maybe can be some operational like why they did with solely money. That can be something that can be done. But I really don't know. I mean, that is something that is in the national security very interested and I know the one training that is going to be like with with food on the ground.
And Kurt, you just heard a manual say there won't be a civil war in Venezuela if the regime falls. Do you have a different perspective on that?
Look, I think you can run the simulation a number of times.
I think if we ran the Iraq simulation again, it wouldn't be the exact same result. But the reality is we're dealing with projecting what is likely to happen. And you just compared it to Panama again. Venezuela is more than a dozen times the size of Panama, significally more difficult terrain in a much more dispersed populace. It also has active threats to national sovereignty in the form of cartels, which already exists, which can dispute control of territory with
any US backed regime, something that was not true in Panama. Again, he said Iraq and Libya a don't hold bearing here, and that you know, Iraq is wasn't a real country and Libya wasn't a real country. Again, I urge people to look at the history. Iraq fought a nearly decade long civil war with Iran in the eighties. It was a real enough country. People died for it. And Venezuela itself is arguably not a real country anymore. In a
certain sense. It's already blending with Colombia. It has its territory, is not fully controlled by Caracas. This isn't something that I think the US should be getting involved with, especially because the status quo negotiated deal with Maduro which is on offer is fine. And then finally he just compared to the Solomoni strike. Well, then I guess he doesn't agree with the supposition of the debate. Solomoni assassinating him did not collapse the Iranian regime. We are nearly six
years from that strike in January twenty twenty. So what exactly is he proposing, thank.
You, yeah, yeah, Manuel, What would be the decapitation action in Venezuela. That would be akin to the solemony strike in your view.
Excuse me, but I would like to ask Court is if he thinks that the USA can trust in Nicolas Madu, I mean, in twenty two eight can easily become that we get again a Democratic Democrat president. So when do you think that the US can trust in Maluu? If he is literally sending drugs and criminals and receiving inity thy China and Russia and Cuba on all the states that are the enemies of the United States, that doesn't
have any sense. I mean, he can say whatever he wants right now because he's scared that Trump is gonna blow up the brain. But how can you think that you can trust.
In that guy? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Kurt?
Do you how do you accept the argument that sure Maduro has offered these various and sundry deals, but there's no basis upon which we could enforce that in the absence of this threat of military force.
I mean, respectullly, I just think that's a childish argument. I don't trust Cure Starmer, which is arguably I don't trust Benjamin YANYAHUO.
We have normalized relationship with all of these countries.
I think trust is not necessarily the currency in international relations. International relations is defined by violence and anarchy. I think Maduro knows the consequences at this point if he doesn't come to some kind of accommodation with the Trump administration. I think the force of arms and the leverage there is sufficient enough to avoid a.
Hot war trust.
If we don't trust someone, then we should try to do regime change in every country in the world.
I'll tell you what we're going to get back with a lot more regarding what the day after a regime change would look like in Venezuela, how all of these foreign influences are impacting the discussion, and whether or not the narco terrorism label is a fair one.
We'll be back with the manual. Manual Rincone and Kurt Mills after quick Break.
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This is a special edition of the Matt Gates Show in partnership with the Zero Hedge Debates. Zero hedge dot com a place where you can get a lot of interesting viewpoints about the discussions that matter to our day. And now we are debating whether or not US military force is necessary to take out the Maduro regime. We welcome back Kurt Mills of the American Conservative and Emmanuel ron Cone. Emmanuel, you're taking the position that Maduro should be removed with military force.
Do me this favor. Paint a picture of what the.
Day after Maduro's departure looks like. Is at Mundo Gonzales the president? Is there a military governance structure? What does that look like to you? And how is it achievable?
Listen, man, the majority of the military in Venezuela is not with the regime. The thing is that we have inside of our country the erosh On, his spies, the intelligence, and they are all in favor of the Maduro regyme for all reasons. So we have right now hundreds of military in prisons or torture or being killed because the regime are I mean, all the military is infiltrated by their in so they cannot cook Maduro if they want so, by the other side if we show away in Maduro.
I mean the worst cases scenario, worst cases scenario is that we become what it was Colombia in the eighties. What it was Columbia. Columbia was a state like controlling like ninety ninety five percent of the territory and they have communist real less in the borders, doing narco stuff and doing terrorism and stuff like that. But we're going to have a properly ordered and yes, no Consales is going to become the president. American child is going to
become the vice president. But we're going to have order because ninety percent of our population wants to become a democracy and wants to become a country that is aligned with the United States. I don't know if you're aware, but Venezuela is the most pro American country that sees in a region. I mean, we don't play soccer in Venezuela. We played baseball when we grew up in Mannesuela, watching US series. I mean, we are the most pro American
people that are in the region. The only thing that happened is that we got a fucking election in ninety eight that only thirteen percent of the population voted for chaos, and then we became in that So you know that it's easy to vote for socialism, but then you have to shoot the hell out to get out of socialism. So that is basically our problem. But we're not going to have a civil.
War, Kurt.
I've heard this argument in response to the comparisons to Iraq in Afghanistan. People say, well, Venezuela had an election, the people will accept the person they voted for. That wasn't the case in these other places. How would you respond, I.
Guess we should just take his word for it. I mean, I suppose I'm dating. I'm debating Venezuela and Akmed Shalaby. There there are always diaspora groups from these countries who make all types of wild claims about what the people on the street believe, uh, and what the country will look like the day after, assuming that them and their friends are put in charge. We don't know, and this is not the US's business.
Uh.
The US does not need to stop all crime everywhere. It needs to effectively prevent criminals and drugs from reaching US soil in the most efficient way. This can be done working with law enforcement and cooperative countries to interdict transport and sealing the US border much more effectively than a regime change war. And then additionally, Trump has been about turning the page from the past the war on drugs in a lot of ways. I mean, it was
fairly astonishing to see there. You know, on the one hand, the US could fight a war over drugs in the White House, and the other on the other hand, the US might actually reschedule and have already has rescheduled you know, something that put millions of people in prison, which was cannabis this week. The war on drugs is broadly has not worked, and I don't think future administrations, Republican or Democrat,
should get involved with it. Does Maduro have ties to the Russians, the Iranians, and the Chinese, Sure, I guess he does. But the reality is how much have they already helped him in his darkest hour. I think that's evidence enough of how valuable they really view him as a client state. I think the most likely scenario is that our antagonists want us to repeat mistakes of other countries.
That Venezuela could become the American Ukraine, a war of choice that bogs us down and in Trump's entire legacy if he doesn't manage it.
Definitely Emmanuel.
Secretary of State Marco Rubio today said that he expected that Russia would be supportive of Venezuela in the event of kinetic conflict with.
The United States.
Does that increase the case for US military action or should that give us some pause?
I mean, man, you and I know that Russia is a little bit busy with the grain right now. That is only worse. I mean that that that I mean, they are providing that with intelligence and stuff like that, but they're not going to work with the United States for Venezuela. That that is ridiculous. On the other side, I mean, I really cannot understand how anybody can even think that it's better for the interests of the United States to have Nicholas Maduro there than to have Maria
Kurina Machial or Munda Gonzales. I mean, it's like, what do you prefer to have a profile like Javier Mile or Nagibukele governing Venezuela or do you prefer to have Maduro that you know that is in the other side and it's giving all the resources of Minezuela to the enemies of the United States. I mean, if we are going to continue with that rhetoric or with that isolation and stuff, why w y then we don't give to China the Panama Canal on all the gas that we
have in Argentina or in all the region. I mean, it's ridiculous. If you are going to be the superpower of the world, you need to put order in your hemisphere. If you're not going to do that, the other countries are going to do that and you are going to lose all the respect in the world.
Yeah, Kurt, I've heard this argument as well, that it's one thing to criticize US intervention oceans away and places where we're playing an away game, but Emmanuel says, this is a home game. This is actually where we ought to have this intense focus on who's running other countries, and.
That's why it's so risky.
I mean, the US can maintain hegelity in its region easily the most dangerous way and the most likely way for that not to be the case is if it becomes a pariah in its own region, right, it would be very cheap for the Russians the Chinese to you know, subtle funded an insurgency in the country in order to bogg us down and humiliate any American administration that wants to do this. The US could use his hef to quietly drive the Chinese out of South America. That's not
what we're talking about. They're changing the definition of what we're doing. They're changing the rationale. They're shifting the causes. Belly daily that started with drugs. Now it's shifted away from drugs because the initial claim was lie, and now it's shifting to oil. I can't imagine something that could be well number one oils trading in the fifties right now. And so unless we want to decimate the US production market by crashing the oil market further, I don't know
really get the argument. But putting aside that, if we are just fighting an open war of plunder, I can't imagine something that is going to make as more of a.
Pariah naturally in the region.
And then the local populations in South America and Central America will be begging for Chinese and Russians.
Well, and I worried about that as I approached this question, Kurt, I'm very eager to get Emmanual's response because I thought that there would be a lot of folks in Latin America hearkening back to the days of United Fruit and Standard Fruit and US intervention in Latin America with great consternation. But almost everyone I talked to, particularly young people, were
eager to see the United States overthrow Maduro. Emanuel, I want you to respond specifically to Kurt's argument that if we overthrow Maduro militarily, there is a risk that throughout Latin America, America and the United States becomes less popular.
Look, Matt, there is a poll that it was made by Yips or some bloomber I think, and it says that the majority of the people in Latino America and not in Venezuela, in Latin America wants the US government to overthrow Madulu because Madua has literally ruined all the continent. We got refugees all over the all over the region, and he bees and he's been also financing the left in all the region. You know what is going on right now in Honduras, because I know that you are following.
You know that they are trying to steal the election right now, INDs. So my argument is the same you know Duda's. We have the biggest military base in Central America and the chain and the Chinese we're trying to steal that military base, the airport of Farmola. So do the United States have to let China take away everything in Arega? I mean, it's ridiculous. And Venezuela is is
literally the most important country in Latin America. I describe to you at the beginning of this debate all the all the minerals, all the oil and everything that we have in Venezuela. So how can anybody think that is that it is not in the best interests of the United States to Thromadura. I mean, it's it's really ridiculous.
Yeah, you're making the Domino argument. He's making the Domino argument, Kurt, which is that if you allow Maduro to just disregard elections, that other countries in the region they may try.
To go full Maduro.
And indeed, you saw an effort in Honduras for the existing communist government to try to ignore the elections. I think some good diplomacy on the part of the United States in the last twenty four hours has gotten things going in the right direction. But what's your response, Kurt, to the argument that allowing Maduro to stay emboldens the other communists in the region.
I think that the status quo is that governments are flifted from left wing to right wing in the region. I mean, look at Chile, that the national trajectory has been this. The only thing that can interrupt the trajectory is if the US is made extremely unpopular and the Trump administration has made further unpopular in the region.
You know, yeah, it's all well and good.
I mean, first of all, like we're supposed to believe this is both a dictatorship and we're supposed to believe polling's pulling out of said dictatorship. I mean, I think the country's impossible to pull. We don't really know.
None of the polie referenced is is a regional poll.
I mean they are not afraid about.
I I could believe that a majority of Venezuelans want to see a change in government, uh in Venezuela. But the Iraq example holds well, and the olyby example holds well, which is they don't agree.
On hold on, let's Kurk talk.
Go ahead, Kurt, Yeah, I think there will be a number of factions all vying for US support, were vying for the US to openly leave, and this includes drug cartels.
Uh.
And I just calling the shots uh on on elections in this part of the world, I think is inappropriate.
The Biden administration actually started doing this.
They they put their fingers on the scales more subtly than the Trump administration for Lula in Brazil and uh, you know, Lula's people have basically dogged the Bolscenaro family.
They're trying to incarceate, incarcerated right now. That was inappropriate.
And if unless we think that the administration is never going to shift from Republican the Democrat, I think it's a good chance it's going to be a democratic administration in this country. Again, I think this is setting up a poor precedent that no White House should be should try to replicate. We shouldn't be picking winners and losers. We can use soft power in the region to try to get the Chinese out of it and try to
you know, a certain road doctrine. Starting to fire missiles, we're murdering people in the region is the number one counter productive.
But what's your what's your answer to the argument that the soft power tools haven't worked in Venezuela.
We haven't been trying them. I mean, Maduro has been remarkably accommodative, he's been remarkably cooperative. He's willing to make a deal with administration. I think that's pretty real. I guess I guess short of just like openly murdering this guy, I guess we haven't. We haven't really taken out the big guns. But I'm opposed to just openly murdering heads of state.
Well, I think what you heard Emmanuel say was that that what we did with Noriega more an abduction than a murderer. But Emmanuel, how do you how do you see that going with with the removal of Maduro and how it will look to others and the president. You know, Kurt's making the argument that we could see are the center right governments in Honduras that's incoming in Alsalvador, as you mentioned, disrupted by left wing governments in the United States?
Does that worry you not?
Excuse me because court was saying that the US never tries of power with Madudu. We have seventeen dialogues in the last I don't know, twenty years with the Madura Jim. I don't know if you're aware, but the Bagan administration also released two that Madudo had here in the US. They were indicted in the US, they were charged with narco trafficking. They were brought to justice and by then released them supposedly for Madula to have a free election.
And you already know what happened in Minnesota. So no, there is knows of power that is going to get Maduda out of power. And the US is going to be losing every single day if Maduri stays in power. And I already explain why, because they are going to give all their resources to the enemies of the United States. So they are harbor in the Middle East, theories in Vennesueta, and they are also giving all the energies supply to China.
So that is a direct threat to the United States for the next twenty thirty forty years and the time that that remains.
By Kurt, I'll give you the lost world on this point.
Yeah, what we lose terrorists they're actually harboring, they have names, and I think the promiscuous definition of a terrorist has not served served you as interests. I think it is a dangerous tool of staate craft and it's getting against further.
To these wars.
Respectfully, this is a sovereign country. It has an imperfect system, to put it lightly, but they get to decide who their leaders are, not the US Force of Arms.
Well, we will get more into that designation of narco trafficking when we're back with the zero Hedge debates on the Back Gates Show Don't Go Anywhere.
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Today, we're back on.
A special edition of The Matt Gates Show. We are debating whether or not the United States military should be used to overthrow the Maduro regime. This is in partnership with Zero Hedge Debates. We welcome back Kurt Mills of The American Conservative and Emmanuel Rincone, a Latin America policy expert.
Emmanuel I always ask this.
Question when people advocate for US military intervention. How many US service member lives is this worth? How many Americans would it be okay to have die in a conflict if the result was what you're seeking, and that is the overthrow of Maduro.
Yeah, as I was say, you know, first, I don't think that the US should miss us he put boots on the ground on Venezuela. I mean there is a lot of actions that the US can use to overthrow Maduru. I mean they are seisting right now, tankers, they are destroying the cash flow of the narcomony. And then can they can do what they did with SOLI money. They can use CIA cover operations, they can do anything. I don't think that there is going to be necessary an
open war with Venezuela. I think that they have to use the force, of course, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be like an open word as people are claiming that it's going.
To be kurt.
You have spoken throughout the debate about a deal with Maduro. Take this time and really detail out what you think those deal points would be as it relates to resources, foreign influence, narcotics, cartels. What do you think it looks like and how do you enforce it?
Yeah, I mean he conveniently didn't ask your question about how many US service members of Maduro's life, which is which is we know the answer, which is zero, were not very many at all.
So and then he proposes a fantasy land.
In which the US exhaust all options, and then presumably then he will propose something new. I think the assassination example is actually.
A bad one.
The US tried to take out a leader of a Latin American country that it didn't approve of for generations. The name was Fidel Castro Cia, tried all types of ways of killing him, didn't work. Don't think the Cuba example is actually the American success story. Cuba isolated in the United States. The United States is isolated from Cuba. I don't think it's been good, including with the blowback
of Cuba. Per I think you know a lot of the Venezuelan exiles say Cuba secretly running Caracas, right, So I don't think this is that that's a particularly good hallmark as to what a deal from Maduro. Look, we have active negotiations going on right now with the Russians. Hopefully we can get negotiations going back with the Orionans and avoid confrontation of China as well. I think the deal points are pretty clear. Driving China out of the country I think should be top dollar, top number one,
top initiative number two. I think everything else from there is fairly negotiable. But Maduro's opening offer is astonishing. I mean, basically giving away his countryes natural resources, at least de Jere on paper in order to avoid a war.
Now.
Might he cheat on that deal, sure, but that seems a.
Lot better than risking American deaths in a country that is far from US interests.
Marco Rubio today said, the Secretary of State.
Who's leading this effort, that the war in Ukraine is not America's war because it's not on our continent. It's true true of Venezuela, South America is in our hemisphere, but it's not on our continent.
We are way outside the box on.
This, I want to raise the issue of congressional involvement in this decision. President Trump has taken the position that he doesn't require war powers resolution from Congress. He's defending the country, he's engaged in anti terrorism strikes. H e Manuel, do you think that Congress should have to declare war for Maduro to be removed by force?
No, because you haven't declared war or I mean you didn't go to Congress to ask permission to kill Poulos Coard for example, I mean why And the other thing that that that that that Gard was saying, I think that he's sort of like like the socialists. I mean, they are all for good intentions, but the problem is that the word is not that perfect. I mean it's not like, well, yeah, we have to try to take out the Chinese's knees, and we have to take take
these people out of our hemisphere. But how I mean, you're not gonna get them out of the hemisphere with good intentions only. I mean, you have to enforce those those those intentions. So I mean, I'm all in for the US to keep being the super power of the world and defending the US interests. Also in the smaller and in everything that I do. And I also think that the US have to establish his supremacy in this hemisphere without hesitation.
Yeah, Kurt, the argument that you're parsing it a little too much with continent versus hemispheric defense and your thoughts on the role of Congress and a war powers resolution, Yeah, I.
Mean, I think pretty blase and flippant to say that Congress have no war powers authorities.
I think this is It's.
Long in the history of the country, It's in Article one. It's a core function, if not the core function of the Congress. The Congress is absolutely at its natier in terms of its own power and spine at the moment, and this is this is embarrassing. This is embarrassing that that Congress openly voted to avoid its own war powers ability. And I think it's it's not something that should be celebrated.
I think the commander in chief should have, you know, latitude in foreign affairs, but not absolute authority.
And I think it's as a.
Scary moment for US statecraft that number one of the Congresses in care and the commentators like Emmanual who want us to get involved in wars also don't care.
Yeah, Emmanuel, do you think that ever a president should seek congressional authority to start a war?
Mat for sure.
But as I was saying at first, this is this is very not not a conventional war. You're not going to war against Venezuela. You are going to war against a drug cartel. It's not the same. You're not going to have all the military of Venezuela going into a war with the United States. That that is not going to happen. I mean, I understand that in the eyes of the.
Like in World War Two, they could argue that we weren't going to war with Germany, going to war with the Nazi regime and we were going worth the SS. But of course we're going to work Germany, I mean, like we will be going to war with Venezuela, the people that run Venezuela today.
Yeah.
So I guess maybe Emmanuel, to sharpen the focus, what would be the type of circumstance that you think of war powers resolution would be necessary as opposed to now when you think it wouldn't, so that we understand the limiting principle.
Well, man, if you're going to war against a country, a whole country, I insist you're not declaring the word to Venezuela or the Venezuelan people. The Venezuelan people are supporting the US. The Venezuela and people are supporting President and Trump. I mean more than ninety percent of the Venezuela and Americans in the United States modly for President Trump. I mean, this is not a war. I insist, this is not a war against another country. This is a war against a cartel. It's very different.
Okay, let me dig into that. Let me dig in these authority manual. Because President Trump has declared the regime a narco terrorist regime, they're using anti terrorism authorities for their strikes in the Gulf of America. What do you think the best arguments are, the best data points facts to support President Trump's conclusion that Maduro is not just a bad leader, but is indeed a narco terrorist.
Matt, I mean, I think I said that at the beginning, is harboring Middle East theorist groups is not only a sound bite for the people to attract word. Now you can actually look at all the documents, intelligence, and everything that has been prepared on that issue since twenty years ago. Is well recommanded it's well recommended, it's well related, it's easy to find. And it's not only that it's all related to drugs, to criminals and everything that has been
going on for the last years. Not only being clear terrorist person for the United States, it has also been declared terrorists in other countries like equal or like Peru or Colombia. I don't know how many countries has been declared terrorists right now. So, I mean the whole issue that maybe he's not that bad, well, yeah, he's a dictator or but that is only a problem of the Venezuela is not true because as long as we are
discussing this, he's harboring terrorists Middle East groups. He's giving all or resources to China and Russia, and they are also financing every bad actors in the world, every leftist organization. I don't know if you're aware. For example, this is only a tiny thing, but they financed Black Lives Matter when they didn't didn't even exist in twenty fifteen. They gave to then I think twenty million dollars and we
can say odd. I mean there is a lot of houses activists or or or political organization that get to power. They finance for Demos in Spain that is a communist parry and they and they get to be vice president in Spain. So you are literally like not taking serious what they have done. I think that that is because the people in the US doesn't understand quite well you're in Venezuela or what they've been doing in the in
the last twenty years. But but let me tell you that that is not like like a time you think.
Yeah, I think by your definition of terrorists like us A I d might be a terrorist if if funding left wing political movements and political parties around the globe is terrorism.
We have some of that inside the house.
God, but they are using they are using drug money, the same drug money, the same drugs that are.
Yeah, I think we just lost you their Emmanuel.
I don't know if you're aware, but twenty years ago, almost all Latin America was a lefties.
Yeah, no, almost all.
America was on the left because they were financing every politician in the continent.
Soa but one of the arguments Kurts made in this debate is that there's been this big shift right in Latin America, in Chile, in Argentina. Okay, but but maybe does that mean, we don't have to use our military to change these governments.
That's the argument, Matt, But I insist, how are you going? I mean right now they run out of money and they also are very very I don't know what is the world, but it is. It's a credit. I mean, they don't get like like credibility in the region.
Sure, well, I want to go to you because Emmanuel laid out a number of things that the Venezuelan government is doing. We obviously see the drug boats leaving Venezuela and coming to the United States.
They obviously have.
A bunch of cocaine and whatever else on them. What is your reticence with the narco terrorism label? And why do you call it state craft rather than an accurate depiction of what we're observing.
Because people that are paid one thousand dollars to move amounts of cocaine are obviously involved in drug smuggling. But that's not if so fact of terrorism. It inflates in
the mind of the American voter. Al Qaeda or isis who I think you know narrowly defined sunny millinery and terrorists, suicide bombers, Sure those are terrorists, but expanding to anyone with a gun that you don't like, or anyone who's involved in any kind of commerce that you don't like or approve of, or is even legal, I think is very very dangerous. And then additionally, the administration has relaxed the standard of evidence here on who's actually on these boats.
The double Tap strike, which I think frankly may one day lead find the Secretary of War in the hay if the Democrats ever signed the ICC treaty. The Double tax strike was in part motivated we know now because they didn't have the evidence to hold these people. They killed them because they would later have to release some of them, and indeed they have.
We actually don't know what these people are moving. Yeah, it's plausible that you don't.
Think those people are moving drugs in those videos, Car.
I think I think most, I think most of the boats are probably moving drugs. But fact as the administration feels that they could not prosecute.
The case, right, but there are there are known connected Do you dispute that that there are connections between Venezuela and Middle Eastern terrorist organizations?
Has blah? Yeah, I mean you do dispute that you don't think that's true that yeah.
I've asked.
Yeah, I've asked him to name it, and I already know what he's talking about, even if he doesn't know what he's talking about, which is they alleged connection to hasblah okay, And I know that Hesbela is designated by the State Department as.
A terrorist organization.
I think it's a Shia militia in a nasty part of the world, but I think it is functionally distinct distinct from al Qaeda and ISIS. And additionally, I think Israel lobby talking points should not be used for a war in the Americas.
Yeah, but if you don't, I mean there will there will be people who will watch this and say, well, if Mills doesn't think Hesbela is a terrorist organization, then that erods this credibility to say that these aren't Narco terrorists.
What would be a response, Well.
I'm not going to make an argument in order to win another argument.
So yeah, I don't. I don't.
I don't I think Al Qaeda and ISIS are terrorist organizations. I think there are plenty of organizations around the world, including the Russian military, the Chinese military, that I'm not a huge fan of, but they're not terrorists.
I want to ask a question about some of the humanitarian conditions in Venezuela, A manual seven point seven million people leaving the country, mostly out of a desire for food, the extensive famine. There is it your position that the human rights abuses in Venezuela justify regime change.
Matt, I mean, I I ask a Venezuela and cool are you that that is an affecting point? But but I don't think that that is some issue that is in the national interest of the United States. I think that that if the US is going to act in Venezuela, it has to do it because of his own interest and not because Maduro is violating human right.
Understood, Well, we'll take one more break. Will be right back with Kurt Mills and Emmanuel Rincon and our Zero Hedge debates at One American News.
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Welcome back in concert and partnership with Zero Hedge Debates. We're here with Kurt Mills of the American Conservative and Latin America policy expert Emmanuel orn Cone. Kurt, earlier in the debate of manual, used the label isolationist, and I get called that a lot. And I'm just wondering, if you are an isolationist, and if you aren't, what is the standard you use to determine whether or not the use of military force by the United States is justified.
Yeah, I think isolationists is a slur, but also they'll make it sound so cool. I don't think it's a useful phrase. I would call myself a nationalist and a foreign policy realist. And I think, you know, the standard for use of force is do we think it's plausitively going to make the situation better? And is the US involved in defending itself for its interests? And I think it's very clear in the Venezuela example that that standard is not meant.
The risks are considerable.
It's very very very unclear to me what the benefits for the US just pass tacks of involvement here even are, and the risks are enormous. That is, like I see, basically very very very very very low upside an enormous downside.
Emmanuel, some of the arguments you've made about ties to narco terrorists, ties to elicit organizations around the world would also apply to Cuba, not just Venezuela. What's your answer to the argument that if we indeed topple the Maduro regime on these grounds, that the United States would then be tied into toppling other regimes on the same grounds, like the Cuban regime.
Look, Matt, I mean it is almost the same with the regem of Venezuela and of the regm of Cuba. But the main difference is that I will say that actually the US has a lot more interest in Venezuela and QUBA is not that powerful. I mean, what QUBA have is a soft power because they are very good and intelligence. They are very good spies. I have told with people on the FBI, and they've been saying to me that the Quban spies are the best in the world. That is like the soft power of the Quban region.
But they don't have money. They can maybe like transhipping drugs and stuff like that, but they are not such a big thread. So if the US want to get
involved after in Cuba, that is another issue. What I'm speaking right now is about the national interests of the United States, and I think that the US has a great interest in half a friendly government in Venezuela, a government like Najib Bukele, a government like Javier Mile in Venezuela that are going to full support the US, that are going to allow US companies in our country, and he's going to be a change maker.
In all the week, I've got time for about a thirty second closing statement from each of you.
Will begin with Kurt Mills.
Well, it's good to know that you're talking to the FBI. This isn't award for the deep state at all.
Look, I will I'll include on this the shoe will almost certainly be on the other hoot. And we want a future democratic administration to be using force of arms to say, eject hobby Male from power, eject Bukel from power. Because if the president is said that we can do this here, and if this even works, which I don't think it will, then the temptation for a democratic Washington, who I think will be considerable.
Emmanual your final thoughts, Well.
What Cordio said, I mean Milay has been elected by the majority of their intenants. Has also being elected by almost ninety percent of the Saladorians, so they are not going to have any argument to try to do that. It will be ridiculous and nobody's going to support that, so it doesn't have any sense.
Really, Well, we will see.
This is such an timely and important issue, and I thank both of you for coming and sharing your thoughts. We also thanks Zero Hedge Debates for co hosting this with the Matt Gates Show, Kurt Mills of The American Conservative and Emmanuel arn Cone of Renaissance Consulting.
Thank you both for being with us this evening.
Thank you man I.
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