- Vienna, welcome to the podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you here today. Welcome, welcome, welcome. You've written an incredible book, which I wanna- - Mast it. Thank you, so excited. We finally get to have a conversation together. This is gonna be awesome. - Yeah, it's been a long time coming. So I get pitched so many books and I, first of all, I'm dyslexic. So if I say yes to reading one, it's like a commitment.
And then also I don't really, I don't know, I think people just churn books out for like positioning or for their career. I feel like Connor forced you to write this book. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's kind of my understanding of reading it. But this "Origins of You Y'all," this book right here about breaking family patterns. This is a must read next to like the dictionary, the DSM, like whatever your standard frame of reference of base knowledge is, this book belongs there.
And Vienna, you have written a masterpiece and I think this is going to, I'll say this, will continue to become more and more relevant as word of mouth grows. It's already become a bestseller, but I really feel like you've written something that will be in every therapist's office. It's a fundamental piece of work, and I highly recommend listening to the sound of my voice
to grab this book immediately, The Origins of You by Vienna Feren. I very rarely promote books and say that because most books are not that great, but you have written something that is outstanding. and it's not just theoretical. It's almost like a workbook in a way, even though I know you say it's not a workbook, but there's a lot of questions and that there's a lot of action that can be taken from it. I just want to first of all say, well done on this book. And I'm so happy that, Connor,
encourage you to do this because this thing is... For me, this is like setting the standard moving forward. This is like base level of knowledge that everybody needs, no matter what therapy or coaching they're doing. So, yeah. Yeah. That's so meaningful. Thank you. Very generous of And yeah, I got a chuckle. Connor, my husband, for those of you who are listening, who don't know, yeah, like years before, kept just saying, "You need to write a book. You need to write a book."
And it's interesting to your point. I too had and hold that story that people just churn out books. And it was really important for me to, whatever this means, but to earn the right to write this book. And I really wanted to not put something out out into the world prematurely just to have a book. This was really important for me to slow down and write from a place where I really had something to offer.
And so very grateful that that comes through, very grateful that this work gets to be out in the world. And I'm so excited that people are picking it up and reading or listening to it. So thank you. - Yeah, that, massively. Well, here's what I'll tell you. So like, I've been in therapy for as long as I could remember, because before that I was dissociated on drugs, so I can't remember. But it's been decades.
And what I love about this book is that first of all, though it doesn't necessarily say it on the outside of the book and on the cover, I do think this is definitely a trauma-informed book that looks at our wounds through a trauma-informed lens. And what I love about it is it's structured. One of my problems with the therapy that I had early on is, I didn't know there were different types of therapists. I didn't know that there were different approaches to therapy.
To me, a therapist was a therapist was a therapist. And I felt like I was just wandering for so long, just discussing things as it would happen to present from my subconscious. And what you've laid out here is a structured way to understand, I feel like be more efficient in whatever work you're doing. And you've identified very clear patterns of wounding that show up in relationships.
And I'm just kind of wondering, how did you come up with these different, these origin wounds that you call them? And was it, I mean, obviously you have a tremendous background in clinical practice, but what was it that made you kind of start to see these wounds and put this thinking together? Yeah. So I was scribbling down all of the different wounds that I could come up with during the writing process and jotting things down. We're getting up to 20, 30, you know,
and trying to embody like the whole human experience of pain and hurt and harm. And when I finally sat down, it's like, "Oh, I think that I can actually clump some of these And then I'm starting to think, I want to title these chapters, I want to feel worthy. I want to belong. I want to feel prioritized. I want to trust. I want to feel safe. And that's where it all started to kind of come together was like, ah, this desire to feel good enough.
Right. This desire to feel important to the important people in your life. This desire to have your well-being cared for, considered, respected, honored, protected, right? Like this all felt like, okay, these are, you know, umbrella terms. Obviously, if you don't like the language, you change it out to whatever it is that works for you. But for me, it felt like these five origin wounds grasped probably the majority of the human experience when it comes to pain.
And I love this idea of the desire being the name of the chapter. I want this so badly for myself, but I don't know why it doesn't happen or why I still feel unsafe or insecure or whatever. I think what I love about it too is that you talk a lot about Gottman in the book. Gottman's the one with the goats, obviously. And I can't remember, I'm paraphrasing, but you cite something that he says about this idea of complaints or being this unmet need or whatever.
And so what I love about the chapter titles is, is you're almost, it's almost like a little tiny applied psychoeducation of like, if I have this specific origin wound, this is kind of what I need. This is what's underneath the pain or underneath these common experiences in relationship. And so even from the chapter titles, I thought it was really beautiful how even that is instructive in a way of someone who's maybe unaware of what their needs are going. I do wanna be prioritized actually.
It's a, thanks for making it so concise. And it's efficient. - Yeah, and I think when we can identify a wound or wounds that resonate, there's something about it cutting to the chase a little bit in our real lives where we're upset by something, we're hurt, we feel a rupture in a particular dynamic.
And instead of going on some wild goose chase and speaking around the thing, it really sets the tone for saying, right now what's activated for me, what it is that I'm actually experiencing is that I don't feel prioritized or I feel deprioritized in this moment. And so it feels like it gives people language to say this wild story that I carry around with me, because this is what I'm getting some feedback from people who are like,
hey, all this stuff, go figure it. It's actually that I have a worthiness wound, you know, And it helps kind of make it more succinct for people to say, yeah, here's what hurts, right? This is when I get most reactive in my life, right? When I'm in a relationship, when I have an exchange with someone, someone I know and love someone who is a stranger, it doesn't really matter. I get activated when I don't feel considered. I get activated when I don't feel
like you've been thoughtful about how this is going to impact me. And when I can start to put some language to that, right? Not only can I see my experience a little bit differently and don't feel like I need to use 7,000 words to try to explain what's going on, right? It's like, it actually lets me say, "Hey, here's what I'm feeling. And oh, also, here's what it's
familiar to." Right? Because we know that there's a story, probably lots of stories, that historically have shaped some of this and create some of that reactivity for us. - 100%. Well, and so I'd like to have maybe, I don't know, I'll call it more of a more clinical conversation with you. I have been studying with someone who's one of the top therapists and I tell everything about my life except for like who my therapist and coach is, because it's like,
that's for me. But like, she's one of the top in the field and I'm steeped in clinical language. I've been doing this for seven or eight years in relationship, transitioning out of relationship, still in partnership business-wise. And so I want to have like maybe a little bit more of a a nuanced conversation because I think it's really easy to take this book and think about
how does this apply to me. Before we started talking and recording this podcast, you were talking about how do I think my takeaways, how to make it relational, which I think is a little bit more complex. I will say that as a couples therapist, for you, I feel like it's so much more complex to be a couples therapist than just therapy in general or
coaching in general. But then you start getting two people, their patterns, and then some other triangle if someone else is not there, it becomes very much more complex. What I'd like to ask you about is, so let's just say that someone identifies their wound.
How does that person, I'll use transactional analysis language, operate from an adult ego state where they're going to take ownership over their reactivity while potentially being vulnerable with their partner so their partner understands what makes them susceptible without their partner into a caretaking parent. Does that make sense? Or their therapist or whatever.
So where's that line between, "This is my responsibility to own my own reactions," and then let me share with you, whether it's a friend, relationship, whomever, and let you know that I'm susceptible. But then I've seen it in my own practice where someone gets that wound activated, they regress, and all of a sudden the other partner gets pulled in with their they're willing to become kind of more of a caretaker, then they parentify and all that type of stuff.
So can you help me understand some of those dynamics and like what's yours, mine and ours in this? - Totally, yeah, it's a great question. And absolutely true that when we have multiple people in the room, right, there's complexity to it. And that's what makes relationships hard, right? It's like, ah, we all have stories, we all have complexity, we all have a history that's rich with lots of different things in it. And your point is really an important one.
And I think in some ways you've already said, we are responsible for ourselves, for the caretakers, the pleasers, the performers. Oh, it's so easy, right? To get kind of looped into that space where you feel like it becomes your job to assist. And maybe assist is actually an okay word to use because I think when we choose to be in relationship, Part of that loose, maybe even unspoken agreement is, I care about you, you care about me. I care about you as much as I care about me and vice versa.
I am here to love you, hold you, support you, but I'm not here to do the work for you, right? And I think we have to expect that a partner is going to participate in our healing in a number of different ways. Maybe they're going to hold a light for us and point us in the direction of something. They're going to be a mirror for us and say what it is that they're seeing. They're going to offer us feedback even when it's really hard and we don't want to hear it.
They are going to participate in witnessing what it is that we've gone through and what it is that's hard for us and challenging for us. And they might hold us literally, emotionally, as we grieve through this. And still at the end of the day, it is our responsibility to be accountable for our work in whatever that work is in order to be led by the healing instead of being led by the pain and the wounding. And so, yeah, it's this tricky-- it is this tricky space.
And it becomes even trickier if people have a history of trying to save another, trying to fix another, trying to find the solution for another. Right. And that oftentimes comes from a worthiness wound, right? Where the condition of, if I can please you, if I can perform for you, if I can solve a solution fix for you, then I am good enough. Then I have succeeded. Then I am, then I am loved by you. Right. And so we really need to get very clear about what is driving or being asked in this space.
And that's going to be very specific person to person, couple to couple, dyad to dyad. But the more that we understand about our story, the more we can see what's playing in to this. And that's, you know, your question is so important, but if we don't know what our, And when I say don't know what our pain is, I don't mean like the facts, the storyline, right?
If we don't know the origins, if we don't know the wounding, if we don't have a deep connection and understanding to that, we are going to get looped in these cycles where the expectation is you're my partner. If you loved me, you would just not say that to me, or you would just not whatever, X, Y, Z. And of course, we can have boundaries, but I think it's very easy for us to confuse that with kind of like this relational manipulation that can take place, whether it's,
you know, overt or covert, right? It's like, whatever it is that's driving it, it can still take place where we get sucked into this cycle where it's like, I have this expectation of you when it really needs to, when that's just a distraction away from your own healing work. >> Yes. And I would love to get your take on this. I'm pretty sure I know the answer.
The way that you word things is extremely organizing for me. And it's rare that I find someone who can put something together in a word construct and a syntax that is not something I've thought about already. And when I hear you talk, you just frame things in a beautiful way. Frank Anderson, IFS, being lead trainer is so good at that as well. But you just have this -- and I've bragged to him about you. I was like, you guys need to meet. Which I want to make happen.
So a lot of times in relationships, I'm guilty of this even now with 20,000 hours plus working with people, God knows how much therapy, like all the coaching in the world where some part of me still wishes someone will be attuned enough to notice something and I don't have to say it. That's still kind of in there, right? And I think that there's a lot of that and it goes on into relationships. What is that phenomenon and why do we have it and what should we do? Like if you love me,
than you should notice." What is that about? honored, protected as a kiddo or, you know, even past that, obviously. But this desire to have someone see you without you needing to overwork to be seen. And again, you know, the origins of that can come from a lot of different places. The worthiness wound that says, "If I am perfect,
then you give me validation and attention. Okay. Could come from there. If I am, if I fit in, in the way that you want me to, if I believe what you believe, agree with what your perspective is, dad, mom, whomever, right, then I feel like I'm a part of something. Okay. Belonging wound
prioritization. Am I important enough to be visible to you? Or are you so distracted by work or your mental health challenge that's not been taken care of, or an addiction, or conflict between you and your partner, or that my experience and what I need is just second fiddle. So it's like we know that these, it can come from a lot of different places where it's like, hey, I just want to not have to overwork to be acknowledged and seen by you.
And I, you know, the little worker within you, right? This part that's like, okay, like, what do I need to do? How do I need to be? How do I need to show up? Right. In order for someone to actually see that I need something here. Right. And I don't know if you became someone who became super self-sufficient in response to that. Yeah. My parents and for me, my parents were like, he's smart. He'll figure it out. That was basically the story. My mom has a
broken back and my dad was caretaking her. He was a medic in Vietnam and grief-based PTSD for all the people that he lost, which is different than being on the front line of PTSD. You have that shock response. He was, I feel like, regulating that through taking care of my mom and she couldn't be bedridden for long periods of time. They were just like, "Oh, he'll figure it out. He's smart." I got really smart, but what I learned was the mentalization was covering up
a lot of this emptiness and this wound. And it's exhausting in so many ways. But I notice it, I feel like I notice it in lots of people though, where there's just this desire to just like, you should know what I need without me having to say it. And what I've learned is when I feel that way, it's my job to know that. Right. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because, so thank you for sharing that one, it lets me into that there's probably a prioritization wound there, which is
that there were literally other things that just had to be more important, right? Mom's illness, dad's grief, dad caretaking, right? All of these things that just so happened to play out in a particular way where Mastin was not the most important thing in the room. And yeah, that has an impact. And I think so beautifully said that there's still this desire to, well, can someone
just know? Can someone just be attuned? And yes, I think to your point, that becomes your responsibility in that moment to instead of hanging out in that space of, well, nobody cares or see it'll never happen, or I guess I'm not important, is to be able to speak up and bring yourself forward to yourself, to the people who are important to you, to the people who matter to to you, to people who are not that important to you, but to continue to do that.
But ultimately, in the intimacy of relationships, in doing that, in letting somebody into your pain, someone who loves you ought to be able to move into a space where they do see you. Maybe not every moment, in every scenario, but that they care about you in a particular way where you start to feel like, oh, this person knows the way I take my coffee. Oh, this person does consider that I would not want this to be how this plays out, and so they've arranged for it to be different.
That would be the goal, that you are in relationship with people who, once you have been able to verbalize and explain and share intimate details of your story and be appropriately vulnerable with people, right? Like that then eventually they are able to see you in that way.
- Yes, which I feel like is the ultimate reparenting 'cause one of the jokes that I make at our seminars when we teach on relationships is like, what's the number one most important skill and people start to throw off emotional regulation, my trauma, I need to know attachment theory, all these things. I'm like, no, selection. It's like who you pick. And the joke I always say, pardon the candor, It's just like, you can't polish a turd.
Like it's just, if you pick the wrong person, no matter how much therapy or whatever, it's just not the right fit. And it sounds like what you're saying to me is, kind of when you understand your origin wound, it allows you to make a different choice and partner because they could be corrective in nature because the type of person that you choose, just how they're wired, how they come pre-installed is inherently primarily corrective for you effectively. Is that kind of an accurate?
- Yeah, I mean, I think with more and more awareness, yes. In many ways, I think that we will partner with people. I've been saying that it's similar levels of irresolution. You know, you ever hear people who are like, "Oh, I'm the," do you curse on your show? - Oh, yeah, fuck yeah. - Like, "I'm the fucked up one. I'm the fucked up. I'm the one who has the fucked up childhood. I'm the one who has so much more. My partner doesn't," right? And I'm always like, scratch it, scratch it entirely.
If you are past dating, like three dates, you know what I mean? Like when you're actually committed to one another, you have similar levels of irresolution to your story. And that's so important for people because otherwise there's this one up, I'm the fucked up one and you're not the fucked up one. I had the terrible family, you have the wonderful family. All of these things that start to put us these different places hierarchically. And the fact of the matter is, sure, the details of your
story might be different. And yeah, maybe from the outside looking in the facts from your story might be a little bit more painful for a person to hear than the facts of somebody else's story. But if you are together, it is because you have similar levels of irresolution playing out with one another. So you with the fucked up story is with this other person who doesn't have a
fucked up story. But part of the reason that that person is with you is because their worthiness is still tied to whether or not they can save you or help fix you or solve the problems because that is how they learned that they got love and connection and approval and that they were valuable in the world. Yeah. So yes, back to your original point, we do partner with people who, when we haven't resolved enough of our wounding,
right, we're going to partner with people who are going to press on the wound, right. And I use the language wound that to me, I chose that because physical wounding, I think we all get like when we're kids, we scrape our knee and it starts to bleed. And somebody washes it clean and puts a bandaid over it and lets a little bit of air get in it and like that's how it's going to heal. And then you take the bandaid off and you are a kid who runs up against the corner of a table
and the scab falls off and it starts to bleed again. We're like, ah, rewounded. There we go. And that's the idea with the emotional wounding too, right? Is that there is an original moment, right? That sets the foundation, the trajectory of something, and that there will be additional
times in our lives where things bump up against that emotional wound and reopen it. And when we are unresolved, and we'll get more into this, but when we are unresolved, our pain says, okay, time to bring us back into our patterns so that you can actually look at the thing that I want you to look at. Keep saying, I said this in my book, pain is not out to get us. It is not out to harm It's not rubbing its hands together cynically, laughing at us and saying, "Here we go again,
because that's fun." Pain wants resolution. Pain wants relief. It wants healing. And the reason that we find ourselves in these unwanted patterns over and over and over again in our adult lives is because it is pain's clever attempt at having us turn back to our original pain that still needs our attention, that still needs our witnessing, that still needs our grieving, so that we can then
choose differently. And so, yeah, we can get to a point where we choose partners differently, where we choose how to engage in a dynamic differently when we have a better understanding of what's driving the ship. And so, yeah, we might keep choosing the same emotionally unavailable people over and over and over again if we need to heal a worthiness wound, let's say, or a prioritization wound, let's say, that hasn't been addressed with as much care and concern as
need be. I love the way you put that together because I was just thinking about this phenomenon, which I'm sure you've seen in your practice about, you know, kind of people kind of just pick the same person in different shoes over and over and over again. Yeah. And instead of just like, I just seem to be attracted to toxic relationships. I'm just working on my worthiness. [laughter] [Dr. Molli Luke] It's true though. But it's like, we have to get more intentional with it because
I say make pain wiser. We don't need to keep doing the same exact thing over and over again, because that's where it makes us go bonkers, right? Where we're like, wait, oh, the same thing, the same thing over and over and over again. Yeah. If we keep choosing emotionally unavailable people, right? Can we make that pain wiser? Can we get to see, okay, if it is indeed a worthiness wound playing out here, what more can I understand about this
worthiness? What more can I witness about why I grew up in a family system in which my worthiness was tied to my perfection? Right. And like, can I actually spend time with this where, oh, I learned that if I was quieter than dad didn't yell at mom as much. Ah, wow. What a heavy weight for me to carry at five. - Totally. - Wow, right. So it's like tending to that, so that pain's grip on you loosens, right? Like pain's grip will loosen when you acknowledge it more, right?
Pain doesn't want you to just brute force and find the way through, which by the way, all of us do, because we survive it. We just find a way through, we keep our heads up and we do the damn thing. And pain is like, "Hey, you don't get to abandon me and just get on with your life. I need you to turn back around. I need you to feel me. I need you to see me. I need you to acknowledge me and just be here with me for a little bit. I promise you I will loosen my grip once you do that."
But I need you to turn back around before you can just say and declare, "This is the life that I want to live and these are the types of relationships I want to have." Totally. I love it. I love it. I can't tell you how much I love it. And also kind of picking up where you just left off. I love how in each of the wounding sort of patterns you've identified, there's sort of a process, right?
The process of naming it, the process of witnessing it, the process of grieving it, and then this sort of pivoting away from it and making a different choice. And I wanna just briefly understand because I think what I've noticed, 'cause you sort of pioneered this trauma-informed coaching thing over here, and what I've noticed is high performers hate the word trauma. They don't think they have it, or even maybe even I would say even wound potentially because it acknowledges a fragility
that they've spent. I think for most high performers, there has to be an optimistic bypass mechanism in their system because of the amount of adversity you inherently face as an entrepreneur or anyone who's performing at a high level. So can you help me understand for the high performers who are listening, they're like, "I don't have trauma," or maybe someone's partner who the partner knows about this stuff, but then the other partner's like, "She has trauma or he has trauma, but I don't have
trauma. I don't have a wound. Why is it valuable to name it? Isn't that just... I know obviously the answer is no, but people can think about it as like, "Well, you're just going to help me be more negative," or, "I'm going to have more ruminating thoughts if I name it, I pay attention to it. Why do I have to witness it?" That's going to mess me up. I'm going to be off my A-game. And then grief, for me personally, anything I want to do is... Anything but grief. I don't want to
grief. Can't we just get to the pivot? So what is the value, especially for people who are performance-focused for naming, witnessing, and grieving? Because I think we all understand the value of pivoting, whether it's in business or life. But those first three, I was like, "Wow." So what is the forward motion value, the performance value, not like performing for
someone, but getting better outcomes in your life? Why is it powerful and important to name, witness and grieve and slow down to be able to do that. - Yeah. Well, let's name the constraints first, because I think a lot of the high achievers will probably tell you or me, "I wouldn't be where I am today without what happened." - Definitely. - So there's this merge of the pain with, "Look at who I effing am." Right?
that our, I say this early on in the book, which is one of my favorite quotes from a colleague of mine, Dr. Alexandra Solomon, where she says like our wounds and our pain are next door neighbors. Yeah, they are. Absolutely. Right. Our, our gifts come from the pain. I know what my gifts are. One of the reasons why I'm a great therapist is because I grew up in a family system where there was psychological abuse where there was manipulation and gaslighting. And I got really good at watching
and tracking everything. I got phenomenal at remembering every last detail that was spoken or done or whatever, because that was my way of creating protection for myself. Well, fast forward, I'm a great therapist because I don't forget. I don't, yeah, I do not forget anything that people say I can track a system really well and yeah, this is a gift. And so a lot of times high performers, high achievers have the fear that if they do this work, they're going to lose their edge.
That's right. And so I want to say that first to be like, Hey, let's identify what is scary about the idea of feeling something, acknowledging something and not just forcing this pivot. I'm just going to do it differently. Right. And listen, I always say this, if you can just do it differently, go ahead. You know, like go for it. If you can do that, great. We don't have to do any of this. If that's a thing that you can change that you can follow through on and it's long
lasting kudos to you for making a behavioral change. Perfect. We don't even have to go there, but if you keep coming back to the same old thing over and over and over again, some point, right, then yeah, we do need to go back here. But what I want you to hear is that you do not need to lose your edge. We can still have that outcome of success of whatever you want it to be, regardless of whether you are being driven by your pain or driven by your healing. That's very important. And
when I work with athletes or, you know, it's like that fear, right? And like, I'm going to lose that edge because I use the negativity and I use the pain as a way to stay on my toes. And I think, I don't know if you grew up around sports at all, but from, yeah. So when I was,
I remember watching basketball with my dad all the time. And I always think about the different types of coaches, you know, the Bobby Knights of the world, who is, you know, famous for throwing chairs on the court, flinging basketballs at a player, screaming in somebody's face and that being like the motivator. And listen, if we look at the record, right. He probably had, it was,
he coached good teams. Yeah. It's like, yeah, you can still win like that, but then you have all these other coaches who are not throwing chairs on the court who are not screaming at
players who are not doing that. And they can still win too. And I like that. I like that idea, right, of, oh, we can still get to success or whatever the performance is that we want, whether it's coming from this like dark place of I'm just going to be this inner critic and let that thing rip and go and I'm going to be abusive in language to myself, or whether I'm actually going to be driven by the healing. And I think I'm a really good example of that because I didn't
lose my edge as a therapist. In fact, what I would say is my ability as a therapist expanded exponentially by being able to be with my own pain. And I think that's what happens is when we are able to be with our own pain differently, the way in which we exist in the world expands, the way in which we exist in relationship expands no matter who it is, who's listening to this, you high achiever, you high performer, no matter everything that you do in the world is relational.
all of it. So, if everything that you do in this world is relational, it is of utmost importance that you tune into this because your ability and capacity to be with your own self this way is going to expand the way that you are with others in this way. And that is meaningful, very important
work. And knowing that you don't have to lose your edge, I think is really important is that you can, even though this might be unfamiliar, even though this might be foreign work to say, "I'm going to slow down for a moment and I'm actually going to see this younger version of myself who, in my case, when I witnessed myself, I think of my six, seven, eight, nine-year-old self
perched atop my mom's stairs in her home." And I think about little Vienna listening in to this high conflict or finding clever ways to pick up the second phone in the house so I could hear
what was going on. I'm like, "Oh, what a role, what a job, what a thing for such a tiny human to do in order to try to understand what's going on in order to get the right picture of what's going down or to feel informed because there was so many different stories and so many manipulative things that were going on and to just start to see her and feel, you know, for so long, for decades, I held the story that I was unaffected by my parents' divorce. And I didn't know how to be
with my pain. I didn't know how to feel. That was scary for me. I didn't know how to be affected. Right? Their divorce created something within me that said there's no room for me to not be okay because they're not okay. And so for decades, right, I lived pretending like I was fine and I was unaffected and there was no pain because that's what made the system continue on. And I lived life that way. And this idea of, you know, to turn towards that, you know, I guess maybe the
question that I would ask these high achievers, like, what does it serve not to? Yeah. Yeah. you know? What does it serve not to? I will tell you, Elon Musk is public about, like many times said, there's no value in him looking at what his father did to him. And I'm like, someone please get to him. Do not spread human suffering to Mars, like all these things.
The way that I personally think about it, because I love physics, is when I think about doing this origin wound work, it's like you're taking less energy to hold that pain, to get your body to make you pay attention to that pain. It's almost like you go up in the atmosphere. There's less air so you can go faster. There's less drag on your momentum. That's how I think of it. It's like because you can allocate energy towards progress and growth rather than dissociation,
which takes a toll of energy. It takes energy units to dissociate or to hold these things down. I just think that, and I love the way that you phrased it because depending on where I am and what environment I'm in, I hesitate to use the word trauma or wounding because there's a group of I don't have that. I don't because I think it's like specifically like some intense trauma or
something like that. But I love what you're saying because we all have that. In fact, I would argue, I don't know if you've seen this in your own practice, but sometimes the higher the performer, the greater the trauma or wound. Because it's like that's like their fuel
for that. And what I love about what you said is success is relational. And what it reminds me of is Dr. Porges's work in polyvagal theory, because he says that obviously there's this whole narrative with Darwin about the survival of the fittest and the survival of the most adaptable, but he also says, but potentially what's even better than the fittest and the most adaptable is the gentlest because they're the safest to be around. I'm just kind of wondering
what your thoughts are on that. We haven't talked about Dr. Porges previously, but this idea that it is the gentlest, it's the most approachable, you can be the safest person to be around, that theoretically could be better for team, better for profitability, better for outcomes, better for your own body if you're a performer and stuff like that. So what are your thoughts? I'm just kind of curious what your thoughts are on that.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when you even think about a work environment, similarly to what you're saying, I think, if I was understanding correctly, when you're speaking to people, you have to find a way to use language where you don't check people out. Because if you're saying trauma, if you're saying wounds, then these high performers don't really want want to have the conversation. And it's like going into corporate America, and you're like, let's talk about your family.
But here's the thing, workplaces are family systems. Workplaces are family systems. Your colleagues, your bosses, they're the adults in the house. They are your siblings in the home. The things that make you reactive, the things that activate you, all of that stuff, That's there.
And I think this concept of the gentlest in the room is and maybe we're going to stretch it here a little bit, but maybe the gentlest in the room is the person you feel the safest with, the person you feel the most seen by, the person you feel understood by. If there is that space where I'm not getting you to do something from a threat position, I am encouraging you and challenging you to do this without there being a threat there. What is the type of productivity that happens from that place?
Definitely. And also over time. Yes. Right. And that I think is where there is more commitment, probably more longevity. Again, I don't know research around this, but this is my guess. Is that when you have an environment where there's reciprocity and relationship that feels good to your soul, to your system. That is a beautiful place to exist and to live where you want to show up, where you want to do well, where you want to give your energy to someone or to a system at large.
I think the alternative to the gentlest in the room, again, you might get good performance from someone for a period of time, but when you chip away at somebody's psyche, somebody's someone's trust, someone's safety, someone's deservingness. Right? It's like, it's only a matter of time before that person will exit. Now here's the problem. Person doesn't exit if they're not resolving their pain. So here's the funky thing about right. Like, because if you think about it, if you right.
And that's why we have success, quote unquote, in the way that we understand it. Making lots of money. da, da, da, da, da, growing in this way and that way and this way and that way. Right. It's like, well, if you get a group of really wounded people who are unresolved working together, who just have, if we're super smart and hard working and all those things, you can keep that machine working for a period of time. Right.
Because it's like, well, the threat is the thing that keeps me on my toes because I want to feel worthy. And I'm only worthy when you keep telling me that I'm doing well because I'm working like a hundred hours a week and not being paid for it. but that's because this is what I need or this, you know, it comes from the wounding, if that makes sense. - Definitely. - Right. And so, yeah, I mean, this, I love what you're bringing up about the gentleness because I would agree with that.
I would agree that you can generate outcomes and have this incredible success in these systems when it's driven by something alternative to the story we've been told wins and succeeds. - That's right, that's right. I love that so much. I'll just say one last thing about it. I was reading a paper that Dr. Porter, I was such a geek on science. I was reading a paper he just published on polyvagal theory.
And he sort of brought forward this term of co-regulation that everyone is using now, it comes from PBT. And then he talked about it in his paper, I thought this was like so cool, I wanna make a shirt. But he says, and then there are super co-regulators. And I was like, I wanna be a super co-regulator, but they're the people who you just, when you're around them, they're so safe to be around whole system just relaxes. And I think that being that type of a person, for me at least,
to be my nervous system state is my leadership in many ways. Because I don't know what cues I'm sending to people if I'm dangerous, my vocal tone, my facial expression, and stuff like that. And the state that I'm in seems like it impacts the quality of the dyad or triad or whatever is happening there, the relationship. And so I just, I literally last night read that, but the idea of
be like a super co-regulator, I think is a really cool idea. And I think that's probably possible when you're resolving your wounding because you're not going to be very safe to be around if you're in your wound is basically the bottom line. Right? - No. Right. When there's so much air resolution inside of you, right? That is felt energetically. And the more resolution you have, right, the more grounded and calm. And it can't be faked, right?
It's like authenticity and authenticity. Like it is entirely felt. I met a super co-regulator recently. Dewey Freeman, who does beautiful work in Colorado. He came out here. I think he's in his early 70s. And as you might know, Connor and I have a today two-year-old he turned to today. And code is, you know, when new people come into the house, he does this like really cute thing
where he like his body just kind of stops. And he looks around, he keeps his head entirely still, but he does this thing with his eyes where he like, checks out his environment, but he's totally still. And you see it's like an interesting kind of response, right? Like, here's somebody new, I'm not going to move. I'm going to freeze right here. And like, what do I like, I'm going to check it out. We're always there. Dewey walks in. And as Dewey walks in, sits down on the staircase,
code comes over and plops himself right down in Dewey's lap. And I was like, there it is. There it is. The super co-regulator, the elder of just, "I don't need anything from you. I'm just here. And I saw it and was just like, this is, it's so cool to watch that, right? Where it's like, you know, and we were like, Oh, here's my little babe, just making sure checking out his environment before he runs to someone new, you know, he's like, okay, hold on, who are you? Let me check
you out. And then, you know, after a little bit of time, right? He's like, okay, cool. Let's, let's play. But with Dewey, it was this immediate, I'm going to hop into your lap and bring you my favorite book for you to read to me because I trust you having been in your presence for a split second. And yeah, I would attest that there's a lot of irresolution living in... Sorry, a lot of resolution living in Dewey's body.
I love the idea of correlating level of resolution with how safe someone is to be around in their state. I think that's such a great way to think about it. And so speaking of that, there's some other stuff you talk about in the book that I want to get to quickly. I'm aware of time. Okay, so here's a conundrum and you
talked about this in the book and I would just love your thoughts on this. So as far as I can tell, when someone's on a healing path, they have to at some point become aware of themselves and their reactions and then be able to navigate the hard feelings, emotions, body sensations, all that type of stuff. At some point, they get to maybe feel feelings that they haven't been and feeling for a while and kind of realize they're not gonna die.
Then at some point, maybe the receptive capacity for positive feelings towards themselves starts to increase. And then eventually, maybe they start to bring all of this new work into a relationship, right? And they start to voice these things, right? And then somebody disagrees, right? And it's like, I can feel like so shattering 'cause it's like, I'm already being vulnerable voicing this thing and now I have this negative affect or negative emotion coming from somebody else.
maybe don't even realize that's about them, not me. Would you say that in relationship, we need conflict? What's the difference between maybe healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict or abusive conflict? What would you say to someone who's just maybe coming out of their shell for the first time and maybe with even a safe partner, but then they get the disagreement or they get the negative
response, how do we navigate that? Because I feel like a lot of people abort their process of growth at that moment because it's almost like confirming their wound when really there is a degree of conflict, at least I think needs to be navigated in any healthy dynamic because there's two people who are different. I would encourage people not to be afraid of conflict, high level. I think we have to say, "Okay, what does conflict mean?" For some people, conflict was abuse in their family,
of origin. And so, yeah, we're having to decipher that conflict is a normal expression of seeing things differently, of having wounds activated, of, yeah, sometimes there's outbursts, of course, maybe our voices get raised. Obviously, I want to hold the line of it not crossing over into abuse. And so I certainly am not wanting us to normalize anything that is unsafe or, you know, unhealthy. And yeah, when you're in relationship, you're going to have conflict. Let's normalize that part.
And there's something, the relationship with self is really important here. And sometimes that's something that we're going to have to strengthen and build while in relationship. So this idea that someone comes in, disagrees, or maybe they overpower something, or their wound is like really activated and it's taking over whatever your experience is. And what often happens is that that enters in, and then all of a sudden our relationship with self drops. OK, I'm in shame.
I'm in guilt. I'm embarrassment. I start questioning myself. Maybe I did. Maybe I don't know. Whatever that feedback is, and we get lost in that space. So this idea of having to strengthen a relationship with self and really trust is very important because there's a big gift that happens when we're able to discern whether this is about me or whether this is about you, which is what you already said.
And I think the gift of being able to know when something is about the other person helps us hold ourselves in regards still, right? I'm here, let me pick myself back up. And I'm going to, I'll set a boundary with you if I need to, if you're going, going, going. It's fast. because I can do this well, I have a giggle. Because when, if Connor is upset about something, I can feel the difference in my body when I know that it's about me.
And I've like actually done something that was hurtful or disrespectful, or I need to look at it and he's like speaking a truth to me, versus I can feel when it's entirely about him and he can't see it yet. And it's gonna be really hard for me to put this in words. I wonder, like, what do I feel? I do not get sucked into the dance when it's about him. Full stop. I don't even entertain. I don't even go, I just let, go ahead, babe. do whatever you need to do in this moment.
And I don't even go in there with him, if that makes sense. But when I believe or know or believe that it might be about me, I get, I'm tangled in there. But how do we arrive at that place? Is a deep understanding of the self, right? It's also being able to hold ourselves in regard. So the moment that people give us feedback where so many of us go is into shame, is into guilt, is into embarrassment, holding our heads, hanging our heads down. And that's not a great place to operate from.
And this idea of, I consider self-love the intersection of seeing ourselves with compassion and grace, right? For the human experience. I'm a flawed individual. I am imperfect. I'm going to say things, do things that are sometimes hurtful and miss the mark. And also accountability and ownership and responsibility. One without the other doesn't get us anywhere. If we take ownership and accountability and we have no grace and compassion for ourselves, not a great recipe.
If we just have grace and compassion for ourselves with no ownership and accountability, not a great recipe. And so this intersection of hold myself up, I can be accountable for the thing that I said, for the thing that I did, and I can still have compassion and grace because there's a story that's there. And that's not an excuse, but it is context for me to pick my head up, Pick up the chin, hold it.
You can receive this and still believe that you are deserving and good enough and valuable and important and safe and trustworthy, all of those things. And I still need to look at this thing that I've done that you are telling me was hurtful or harmful to you. And that's, you know, to get to that place, obviously requires us to have some healing work around our worthiness, right? Around our safety, around our trust with our own selves.
But I think that we often are kind of convinced throughout life, depending on what relationships we have and what family systems that we grow up in, that we're the problem, that we're at fault, that this is about us, right?
And if that's a person's story, navigating feedback will be much harder than someone who grew up in a system where people, adults took accountability when it was appropriate or children learn to take accountability when it was appropriate, where they grew up in an environment that was clean.
But if you did not grow up in an environment like that, to be in dynamic with someone and know the difference between where it is appropriate for you to take accountability and ownership versus when it's not about you is a skillset that has to be practiced and earned through healing. Amen. That is so beautifully articulated, what you're saying. And I just love the way you put that together. And it's also actionable and clarifying, which is so helpful. I have a lot
more questions, but I'm also aware of time. So I'm going to try to just pare it down to maybe one or two more. So in keeping with this conflict theme, I feel like the world is becoming, especially younger people, they're just gravitating towards all kinds of psycho-ed terms, attachment terms, psychological terms, even diagnosis. They'll just label someone,
even though they're not a psychiatrist that diagnoses people. And I understand how, for example, understanding what narcissistic abuse is and what it looks like can be helpful for people to get out of it, to recognize what they're in. And, and this term gaslighting. Okay. So, my understanding of gaslighting is it's like an abuse. So when someone, to me, talks about gaslighting. To me, it's equivocable to a rape or something like that. So it's a very traumatizing
thing. And I'm just wondering what your take is on this term becoming so popular, because what I'm noticing is most people are using it out of context to describe disagreement, not actual gaslighting, and thereby minimizing or diluting actual gaslighting. And I'm wondering if you just have any thoughts on that, because I'm sure you've probably seen that in your practice, and this term is so popular. I think it was the word of the year last year. And when people use
this term, I'm like, "Do you even know what you're saying to me? Because you were actually just in healthy tension of differences and disagreement. I'm not gaslighting you. I'm disagreeing with you." How do you see that? And I don't know. What are your thoughts on that? Katie Robbert (00; Oh yeah. We use the term when people disagree. If somebody says, I didn't... Even when somebody
says like, "I didn't say that." They're like, "You're gaslighting me now." It has to come from an intentional place of trying to make another person crazy, of trying to make that other person lose it. So when I describe it for what happened in my family of origin, yes, that's what happened was there were events, there were things, there were tricks, there were games that were being played to make somebody think that they were crazy. I believe that the term-- I read this long ago.
I think it come-- there was a movie decades, decades, decades, decades ago where it was like the character was turning on the stove light and kept doing that to make the partner go crazy thinking-- I think that she had turned the stove off and now the burner was back on and now the stove is off and the burner-- I think it originated from that. I maybe you've heard that story too. That's correct. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. The movie is called Gaslight. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Right. Of course.
Uh, of course it was. And, uh, and so yes, we use this term and like, I hear people say, oh, you're gaslighting me when you're like, well, that's not how I recall it. Or like, that's not what I said. And even if it is what you said, but we obviously have different memories and we, you know, we're like, well, that's not what I meant, you know, it's like, that is not
the same as an intention. If you are being intentional with that, sure. If you are changing your story constantly and you know that you're doing that and you're doing that to try to make somebody else not know what is true or untrue, yes. But if people have differences or people remember details differently or you just have a different story about things, that is not gaslighting. >> Yes. I love that so much. Thank you for saying that. I'm glad we got that on record.
And lastly, I'll say, because I want to wrap, and I'm aware of time, I could literally talk to you for hours more. Maybe we'll do more. So let's just say that I've done this work, I've identified my wounds. How in the heck do I even know how to pick someone else if all I'm used to is saving them or not being a part of it? Because I see this a lot when I start talking to my clients, and I love your thoughts on this, but when I start to describe healthy relationships to them, they look at me like,
"Where are these alien people that you're describing?" You know what I mean? What are you talking about? So how do we even start that new decision-making process of finding someone who's healthy? Melissa Arletho (00; Well, and especially if you are in the new decision-making process, as opposed to if you've been in a relationship for 20 years and you're trying to figure out how to change something up
within the dynamic. But what I would say is, when I think about my relationship, we still, we have wounds, they get activated sometimes, they play out in a particular way. And what's beautiful is that I've chosen someone who is also aware of his wounding, his pain, how that shows up. And so what feels healthy to me is being in partnership with someone who is willing to look, who's willing to repair, who's willing to go there and learn alongside of me.
And also just sort of in his own individual process me in my own individual process as well. So it isn't about picking somebody who is entirely resolved and nothing is ever going to play out. Relationships put us back into contact with the things that we need to work on, the things that need our attention. That's the gift. So you're
always going to find somebody who is going to mirror something back to you. It's about whether or not they're going to participate in the healing alongside of you or leave you to pick up the pieces yourself. And so as a start point, right, it's like, I think if you are stepping into relationship for the first time, I would be really interested in people having like open to this work and whatever work that it is that aligns for you, but open to some type of healing work,
open to reflection. And doing that in an authentic way. I think there's a lot of inauthenticity. I think there's a lot of bypassing that can happen and we can speak the great game, but are you actually living it? Are you actually doing it? And really taking care of that and in that choosing process. I think you it will be revealed very quickly in relationships honestly.
I don't think it has to take that long for us to see whether or not somebody actually can care about this experience, reflect on themselves, take ownership and accountability, be gentle and compassionate with themselves and with you. These are all important things that we want to be be looking out for.
Additionally, I think if you find yourself back in a role, if you find yourself sort of doing the same thing that you've always done, that's a really good indicator then of, oh, here I am again in this thing that I've been working on individually. So when I had this rupture in my late 20s, where the extension of my role from childhood, where I was pretending like I was unaffected, unbothered. I was fine all the time.
I was this needless little girl who turned into this needless adult woman who was boundary-less, pretended like she was the cool girl and had no preference to anything, was being activated again. And my partner at the time, his ex came back into the picture trying to decide if he was going to go back into a relationship with her, stay in a relationship with me. Totally understand. No worries. Take your time. I'm sure this is so hard for you. That's what I was saying at the time.
It's like, bam, there it is again, pretending like I'm unaffected and I'm bothered by the things that are deeply disrespectful and hurtful to me. And I couldn't say the thing because I had never been able to say I'm hurt, I'm bothered. Finally say the thing, OK. Then step into next relationship.
And it's the gift from that that I have to pull into the next where I choose to be expressed, where I choose to share how I really feel, where I choose to show up with the healed part of me and healed again, not destination, but like the process of it, right? This healed healing part of me that's able to say, I don't like this or no, I'm not okay with that.
And when I realized that I could do that with Connor 'cause he was the next person I dated after that, like that's where I was like, oh, oh, and I'm saying that I'm bothered by something and you're not just leaving and running or overpowering something or upset with me because I'm upset, right? Like here's somebody who's able to receive this newer part of me that had sort of shown and grown and evolved into this. And it's like, oh, this is different. This is different. And that's where it is.
It's like when you can take the things that you are earning on your own, in your own work, and then you can place them into a relationship and it's like, okay, and the whole thing doesn't go to shit, right? Like that's a pretty good indicator That something is expanding for you. Does it mean you'll never rub up against each other's wounds? Absolutely not. Of course you will.
But if you can take the things that you have earned individually and put them in the relationship and that relationship still functions. Whoo. Yeah. I love that. Oh, my God. That is so well said on so many levels and so applicable and just so good. You are so articulate and intelligent and kind and empathetic. And just thank you for your practice and for your work in this world. And thank you for writing this book, The Origins of You. You got to get it. Vienna
Ferran.com. It's all there. It's on Amazon. It's on all the places. I highly recommend you get this for you, for your partner, for your family, for your friends, because that's what I did. And it's just, this is a phenomenal piece of work. And thank you so much for being on the podcast today and hopefully we can chat again soon because I feel like I have unresolved, I have probably like 50 more unresolved questions to ask. So we'll have to-
We have additional rounds of resolution here, but thank you, Nastin, for having me. And right back to you. I really appreciate your generosity and your kindness in the words that you're saying and to you too. You are a phenomenal interviewer and you are someone who speaks, I think, to the the human experience in a way that a lot of people resonate with. So thank you for your work. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks a lot. You're welcome. See you soon. [music]