Hello, and welcome to the Mastin Kipp podcast. Today, I'm so excited to have doctor Frank Anderson on the podcast. He is a world renowned trauma expert, Harvard trained psychiatrist, global speaker, and international best selling author of Transcending Trauma. He believes that traumatic events have a lasting effect on the health and well-being of individuals and that addressing these events will lead people down a path of hope, healing, and
forgiveness. He cofounded the Trauma Institute and Trauma Informed Media, organizations that are dedicated to bringing more awareness, compassion, and unity to the world. He splits his time between Boston and Los Angeles with his husband and 2 sons. Follow him atfrank_andersonmd on Instagram andfrankandersonmdot com. Y'all, I am so excited for this podcast interview with my dear friend, doctor Frank Anderson. Here we
go. Frank, welcome to the podcast. I'm thrilled to have you here today. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. I always enjoy this. Our conversations. That's for sure. I I I we well, we've talked a lot about how we wish sometimes some of our conversations could be podcasts. So we're actually formalizing, that intention now, which is very
exciting. It's it's coming to life. So first and foremost, we're here to talk about this book, To Be Loved, which I you know, lots of people ask me to, you know, endorse, promote, accept their book. And, first of all, I have dyslexic. So really hard for me to read, period. I need the audiobook. 2nd of all, I only like to share things I believe in or have I've found and personally used. And I can tell you, like, this book, guys, like, To Be Loved is
a must buy. So wherever you get books, please get To Be Loved by doctor Frank Anderson. It's an incredible story, and we'll unpack more about it here. But I just it's a it's a shameless plug because it's well worthy of a shameless plug because it's so good. So I just wanna say that from the beginning. So, Frank, I feel so, excited about this conversation because I got the privilege to watch you write this book in a way Yes. From from the end of your last book to this season
in between books to then Yeah. The idea coming around. Like, I've I've I've had a a front seat view Right. Of watching you, write this book. And so I feel like, you called me a doula, book doula, the other day on the Pepsi thing. But I do feel that way. So I I I feel like we're I'm I'm, like, we're sharing off this thing that you created, but, like, I was a part of, like Yes. Witnessing.
So there's a bunch of questions I have written down that I wanna talk to you about, but I think the thing that's most striking for me is this. To me, therapists and certainly psychiatrists, like the MDs, right, is like like to me, it's it's formal. It's, well respected. It's rigor. It's acumen. It's training. You hear words like Harvard trained. All of a sudden, Harvard, Ivy League. There's all of this. Right? And yet, in this book, you are so blunt and direct about Yeah. Vulnerable,
experiences in your life. Can you help me understand how you merged this? Because, you know, your ivory tower science and physician science with I'm gonna talk about little Frankie and, you know, give him a voice too. Like, how what was that like for you in this process? Yeah. It's a great question because I I honestly don't know how conscious it was in that way to tell you the truth. I don't and you know what? You know me in that I don't see myself as the Ivy League
Harvard trained person. Like, I don't really identify with that. Like, sometimes when I do workshops and people read off my bio, I'm like, who the hell are they talking about? Blah blah blah blah blah blah. He did this and this and this and this and this. I'm like, what the hell is that? Who is that person? So, like, in in a weird way, I am that, but I don't identify with that. I kind of identify more with me more so than that. Now I will tell you this, Mastin. Earlier on, I
only identified with that. So there's been transition. I was only smart. I was only my value because of my intelligence. So there are many, many years of my life that that's was that was who I was. Yes. And so I'm grateful that there is this shift and transition in me that I don't identify that way anymore. I don't even yeah. I don't see myself that way. It's like, it's just me. I'm a regular person. And so in that writing from that place was almost easier
than writing from the other. You know? It was a joy to write academically. This is the first time I've written nonac there's no footnotes. I think there's one. I think there's, like, one footnote. She's like, wait. How to put a footnote in there, one of the editors? So it was kind of fun to do it that way, but but the the raw honesty evolved. Like, that wasn't an intention when I set out to write this book. I'll tell you that.
And and I really got connected to truth in a way that I don't think I have before, honestly, because it was like, if I'm going to tell this story, if I'm going to tell these moments, I want people to be with me in the moment. I want them to join me. And so when I was writing, I think you know this, one version was through present day Frank, and then I rewrote the whole book through
Frankie's perspective. So when I was like and, honestly, like, in in these cruising areas, in a bathroom or in the in this park, and this guy is, like, coming on to me and I'm freaking out, think I'm gonna die and have a heart attack and I start running away. Like, it's hard to share it not authentically when you're writing from the the the position. Do you know what I mean? So it just kind of it did it just kind of evolved that way. You know? And and so there were moments of, like, holy shit.
Like, what am I doing? What's wrong with me? I did have a lot of those moments, but they were fleeting. They were really fleeting. I I there was something about being real and telling the truth that almost, like, encapsulates the authenticity of me in a book. Yes. Because that's who I am, and now it's, like, in print. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. One thing. Right? There was something like, wow. This is who I am. People who know me know this about me, but now it's, like,
out for the world to know. That's right. And I don't hold a lot of shame. Yeah. So so the way you could say the author of this book is Frank G. Anderson, MD, and Frankie. 100%. 100%. Yes. Co authors. You guys are co authors, basically. Co authors. This is a combined effort. Okay. I will. Sure. I really I love that I love that so much. I also am curious because okay. I'm gonna change the frame on it for a second. Okay? Yeah. Because you you how you
see yourself is one thing. How I experienced you before I met you, and also how I think a lot of people in the trauma healing space experience you is as this domain expert, highly respected. And, you know, you're associated with doctor Betzel Vanderkolk. You're associated with, you know, Rick Dick Schwartz and the IFS Institute. Like, you wrote the manual on IFS training. Like, you'd lead the trainings on it and stuff like that. And so I'm curious
for people who perceive you in that way Yes. Could you help us understand how you, Frank, did, like, self coaching or self parenting with you and Frankie in a parts perspective to write the book? Because I I I think it's one thing to, like, teach the model. It's even another thing to facilitate someone in IFS or parts work. But, like, I I just I watched you do parts work on yourself Yes. Yes. Basically, to write this book. So can you like, so so through the
lens of someone who's like, like, this is doctor Frank Anderson. I've seen him in this training context or in this, you know, expert context. Like, could you help us understand, like, how you were able to kind of take the work that you bring to the world and to help others heal? How did that come into the creative process for you? Yeah. It's well and it's it's mostly because of the years of therapy that I've done myself. Because I once I think it was maybe 2 I met Dick in 2,008.
No. 2,004, I think I met him. And I started IFS therapy in 2,000 and 5, and I'm still in that same therapy. Right? So there was so much of learning the model through doing the work myself. Right? Then I end up writing a manual, writing a book, teaching a course, writing another book about it. So then I, you know, it's like from the inside out, in some ways, I know IFS in inside and out because I've been doing it. And and there is this thing.
Dick used to call the in IFS Institute the center for self leadership. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. I think he wanted everybody to be able to self lead. Yeah. And it's very hard to do that. Let me just say that. It's very hard to do that, but I can kind of do that now. Like, I can go through the healing process on my own. I'll put on headphones. I'll go for a 5 mile run, and I could do an unburdening now. Like, I have enough access to be able to do that work by
myself. I'm still in therapy for sure, but I've done many healings on Peloton, running in the woods, you know, like, on a treadmill. So I What's that like for you? Like, how do you talk to yourself? Very internal. It's interesting. You know, one I'm one of these people because I have a lot of trauma in my body. I have to be running, listening to music, typically. So there's movement involved. I kinda think I'm doing EMDR when I'm running. So there's bilateral
stimulation. I'm listening to music, which activates the right part, right side of my brain. It brings the right and the left together. And so I'm kind of and and I do when I'm in that space, Mastin, I'm, like, accessing the spiritual also. It's like the perfect combination for me. It really is. I can go out for a run, and my husband's sitting at home like, alright. What great revelation what revelation have you just come up with now, Frank?
What world problem have you solved on this run? Like, he's always expecting these very heightened responses from me because I really do get in a heightened state when I it's it's like the the triple crown for me. It's like music. You know, it's why the the yeah. Music, movement, and openness, really. A little bit of sensory motor in there too. A 100%. 100%. So it is that triple like, I don't sit and meditate. That does not work for me. Yeah. I listen to music and I move, and then
I can access a higher spiritual place. You know? So it sounds it sounds like on your runs, you're doing the sort of bilateral with EMDR. You're doing the music. You're, you know, endorphin the endorphins are running. The the cannabinoid system is running. You're in a a sympathetic mobilized state unlike probably a lot of the dorsal or mobilized states that you were in during the the trauma experience, and then there's
there's music and all these different things that are happening. So when you're in that state, what do you say to yourself? Like, what can you give me example of, like, what comes up and, like, how you how you what's your internal process? Do you know? So there's a lot of spirituality that comes into play for me around it because I'm asking for help. I'll say, you know, I can be struggling with something. Say, for example, with
my mom struggling with this book. I'm like, what do I need to do? What do I need to learn? So I I do a lot of asking questions, and then stuff comes up. Right? I'll just think about, you know, oh my god. I had such difficult a difficult conversation with my sister the other day. So I Kipp bring it into mind's eye, and then I kind of open it up in that state and then stuff, like, stuff that and this is what happens in IFS. You never could interpret or figure out any of the information that
comes from within. And so stuff starts coming up, and I make these connections, and I make these associations. And the other thing I do is when I'm running because I'm listening to music, I have my voice memo. I'm like, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. You know, like, the amazing things show up. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Yes. Ask my assistant. I'm doing this to Michelle all the time. She's like, are you running again, Frank? Because I have all these wild
ideas. I really am in, like, a heightened zone when I'm in that state. So so much happens to me on so many levels, including healing. So and, you know, it's kind of I don't wanna call it an addiction. It's more like a drug. I crave that creative zone. All things good happen in that space. And I need to do that at least 2 to 3 times a week for myself and my sense of of calm, of purpose, of self connection, self awareness. Yeah. It's it's it is kind of a spiritual zone
for me. So and it I don't make it happen. I I create the environment that allows it to flow through. Love that. So it's it's really state dependent. Totally. Yes. Instead of addiction, I'm gonna use neuroscience terms. It's been this behavior has been linked to your reward center. 100%. The higher like, it's an elevated state. It really is an elevated state. Yeah. I love being there. I love being there, and,
I I yeah. It's it's very healing for me. I love that. So you found a way to create your own sort of altered state or non ordinary state, basically, to I'll tell you. Stuff comes up, like, you know, I've often I've done psychedelics and I'm like, I do not need psychedelics to get there. I really, you know, I've done it, and I know what that's like. And I get in places, Jesus shows up, like, all kinds of stuff show up when I'm in that in that zone. That's amazing. I love that so
much. Now Yeah. Something that you just said that I I wanna pull back around to because it ties into the book also. What is, why is music it in the book? Like like, tell me tell me what that means to you. You know, as someone who grew up so dissociated and disconnected, who was kind of programmed to so dissociated and disconnected, who was Kipp of programmed to not be myself in order to survive in the world, it was one of the few things that helped me access emotion. I, for many, many years,
didn't feel. I write in I write in to be loved, like, this is crazy for me that I was in therapy 5 times a week for 11 years and never cried. Yeah. Never cried. Like, that's insanity. And I would listen to music over and over, and I'd play these songs, you know, M and M, I forget the name of which one it which one I put in there. And I would just play it over and over. Bohemian Rhapsody over and over and over again. REO Speedwagon. So I play these songs over and over and over again, and they
helped me feel. They helped me access emotion. So it was one of the plate one of the ways that I processed my trauma for sure, and I it had helped me feel something that was in there, but I didn't really have access to. So Yes. It you know, my I remember one time my brother and his wife came to visit me in Boston when I was married, to my wife then at the time, and they're like, Frank, Indigo Girls. I was playing that,
like, over and over again. They're like, why do you listen to such depressing music? This is so sad, Frank. You know? It's like, come on. Can we listen to something a little bit more upbeat? You know? And I'm like, Kipp fears, indigo girls, like, thousands of times. Yeah. You know what I mean? So there was a way that music helped me feel, and it helped me process the trauma.
Sometimes I even would I was writing the playlist, and I was telling Michael about like, I write quotes about e above each chapter relative to my life, what the song meant to me. He's like, that's not what the lyrics say at all. That's what the song is about, Frank. You know? I'm like Oh. What it was about for me. You know what I mean? Like, he's so deeply. He's like,
I don't think that's what they were meaning. But it you know, you you know, obviously, music does what it does to each person, and it just hit hit me so powerfully. You know? Like, the chapter around kids, for example, was glitter in the air by print pink. Let go. Let go. Like, I I couldn't make a baby. You know? We were 2 men, and so there was this point of letting go. And I don't think I could have gotten through without Pink's song glitter in
the air. You know? So it captured things for me. Those songs were were were the songs of my life and my trauma healing. Yes. Period. And I want everybody to do that. Like, this is one of my hopes is, like, everybody create theirs their to be loved playlist. Yeah. Right? I would love that. I would love that. Yeah. And, hopefully, they'll end up outside in the hot tub alone because they have to listen to it, and their husband is the one who hasn't here anymore. 1000 and 1,000 Not that anybody on
this podcast did that, but, you know, just in case. You know? You remember that there was this moment. It was so funny. Like, I like, they they banned me at from in the house to listen. Give you love to Adele. They're like, no more. Get the hell outside. And we we were exercising and jamming to all this powerful music, and you're like, Frank, you pick a song. I was like, to be loved by a change the whole. I was like, I don't know if I can, like, get
a pump to this song. I don't know yet. I'm not sure. But it was where I was at at the time. You know? It was like, that was every like, that was that was the that was the ending of writing this book at that time. That was what was happening. My dad was sick. He was dying, and I connected with the fact that my whole love would my whole life was organized around to being loved. So I listened to that. You you
hit that phase. Yeah. Okay. Here we go. You know what's still on my playlist, which is the song you sent me, which is happy to be sad? Yes. Yes. That's still on my playlist, everyone. And it comes on. I'm just like Yeah. I think every time I hear this song, I think about you. Yeah. And, like, I'm and I remember when I first heard that, like, I'm not happy to be sad. I'm sad to be sad. You know? But then when you get into it enough, you're like, okay. I can see the
happiness. Oh, doing. A part of it. I started feeling it all. Like, I felt a lifetime's worth of sadness Yeah. When I started healing that piece with my dad. So I was thrilled to sob. Yes. Like, I never sobbed before. Yeah. You know what I mean? So that was like, wow. I'm alive. I can feel fully. I love that. So I was that was happy to be sad was totally one of my songs for a long period of time. That was so good. I don't know if it's David Kessler who said it. Somebody said it about grief.
Like, one of the things that grief means is it means you're alive. Yes. You know? And I was just like, well, you know, that's, like, better than your condolences, you know, for sure. Like, I'm definitely alive. You know? That's for sure. But but, yeah, feeling that is a feeling grief I think grief is I mean, personally, for me, the one one probably one of the hop emotions I work hard to avoid, and you help me work hard to encounter. It it's it's the
most you know? It's in a bizarre way, it's the most alive I've ever felt is in my moments of grief because there's if everything gets stripped away and there's nothing more real and life affirming than grief and sorrow. And it's a weird thing to say, but it it that's been my experience. I mean, Joel, you can have these pinnacle moments of joy, but when you're in the depths of sorrow Yeah. There's nothing more life affirming. Yeah. That's so true. I know. Yeah. That's
so true. Alright. So speaking of, life affirming, I know one of the things that you haven't talked as much about, but I've had the privilege to witness firsthand, is you and your husband, Michael. Yes. And I I I love how I when I I remember, like, when I met him the first time, I was thinking to myself, like, who is Frank married to in my head? Yeah. Because you told me about him, but I was just like and then when I met him, I was like, oh, like, this is Michael is such a perfect
match for you. Right. Right. And I love how you guys interact together. Like, it's like it's like it's like I I it's so strange to see 2 people who are so the same, but then so not the same. Yes. It's like so it's like it's like a you guys are like a paradox. So could you tell me a little bit about, like, how Michael has helped you heal and have corrective emotional experiences and, like, how that how that's been for you? 100%. And and you know what? He is kind of
a shocking partner for me. Like, I am such a extroverted, going, love social contact kind of person. Like, I just love it. I thrive off of, I expand off of connection. He is so the opposite in so many ways. He's introverted, he's quiet, he's thoughtful, he's introspective. And so we're so opposite in some ways. Like, it's like such a paradox. However, there is this the best way I can describe it is like, it is so not about, not
about this lifetime. Like, there's this weird familiarity and knowing each other that is so healing. Like, I this is the most healing relationship I've ever been in my life. I've never been in anything more healing, more peaceful, more calming. And so when I met him, it was like I don't I was like, foreign. I was like, I don't know this. Like, I don't know this. I remember the moment so clearly because it wasn't a reenactment and it wasn't a form of
redemption of my old wounded. You know? I write about that in the book. Like, I became my father with my wife. I became my mother with my first significant male relationship. I was in repeat mode in such a powerful way. When I met Michael, it was like, I'm on foreign territory. Like, I don't even know what this is. And it intrigued me, but it was so different because it wasn't about wound redemption anymore for the first time in my life. So it was like my like, I liked who I was.
Like, I'm not needy, and I'm not full of my attachment wounds here. Yes. I'm not controlling and dominating this person. Like, I didn't even know myself, which I was intrigued about, and I didn't know him. You know? And so there was something so foreign is the best word that I could use about the relationship, and it's turned out to be, like, so easy in some ways. It's really easy. Yes. We have our conflicts. I don't wanna be. You know? We certainly have conflicts,
but not a lot of them. We we don't. I witness how you guys maybe misattune and reattune in real time. Yeah. And it's like it's like there's definitely, like, relational dynamics at play. But Yes. I think one thing that I've I've I've observed a lot of things about your Yeah. Dynamic. But one of the things that I love a lot about both of you is when you rupture repair in the small ways that I've seen, I've never seen either one of you question each other's character or intention.
Neither's either seen of us what? Yeah. But I I haven't I haven't heard you question each other's character or intention. Yeah. 100%. Right? 100%. Like, it was it never goes to that level. How do how do you get to that place? Because I think a lot of times when there's, like, rupture repair and stuff like that, there could be this, like, I question who you are as a person or your character or your intention and all that type of stuff. Michael taught me this this brutal level of
honesty that I never experienced. There was so much deception in my life growing up. Nope. The all the mafia stuff that I write about, you didn't know what was real, what wasn't real, what was truth, what wasn't truth. He's so brute honest to a fault. Mhmm. Not really. I don't think there's honesty to a fault, to tell you the truth. But he's so honest, there's no question about his integrity or who he is, and he's so consistent that if he says it, it
it's the truth for him. And I know that because there's such consistency. And I have learned that also. So I valued it because I didn't experience that in my life, and I'm also the same. Like, I will say something, and it took me a long time, Mastin, to be able to say what I felt. You know this. Say what I felt if it can hurt another person, you know, but that's one of the things I've learned from him is honesty above all else. So it there's no very little questioning Mhmm. What
he says. Yes. You know? Because it's the truth. And I know that. Even if I don't like it, it's the truth. Right? And and so this has been corrected for you because when you were growing up, there was this you didn't know what was true. My gosh. You you get yeah. I think it gets me like, it's even there was so much of my mom. This is particularly more my mom over and over again. My dad would be, like, chasing me through the house, screaming at
me, and my mom would say, he loves you. He loves you. He loves you. And it was so crazy making for me because my reality and her words never matched. So I didn't know what was true ever. I didn't know what was true. And, you know, I was wrong. I was I was not I was wrong and bad. So I was broken in this way. So I never yeah. It it it was so and the and the mafia stuff was so crazy. We heard these crazy stories. It was is it real? Is it not real? So there was so much non truth that I grew up
with, and I disconnected from myself so profoundly. So I had no sense of what my truth was. Yes. Ever. Right? So this is that was so corrective for me. Like, so like, wow, Truth is okay. Wow. Truth is actually good. Wow. You can count on somebody being reliable and authentic with what they say. Like, that was a game. That was very new for me. Yes. And consistent, I will say. It wasn't like it happened sometimes, like, all the time. The the other thing I'll say well, go ahead. No. Go ahead. Go
ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. I The other thing I'll say, which also blows me away to this day is nobody has let me be a 100% who I am Mhmm. Other than Michael. Wow. Like, he I who I am is okay for him always. He it's just like, do you want could should I do this? Can I do this? Yeah. Go ahead. Do it. Do you want to? Do it. Yep. No. Like, the space that he has given me to be me has also been so corrective for me. Nobody's ever I've always had to be what I should be or what
other people need or want me to be. Yeah. And probably in a way that feels pressure filled. Oh, it was such so pressure filled, and then you get resentful, and then you're not being authentic. You're mad at yourself. You're mad at them. It's like, you know what I mean? He I can just be myself so fully Yeah. Which is what's has been shocking for me. Yeah. What and that leads me to a question because I feel like I think, like, you know, you and I both work with people who have trauma
in different ways. Yes. And, I've I've had I I work at a slightly different population than you do. Yeah. And I think there's probably a lot of commonalities because people are people Yes. And they have a nervous system that's relatively similar with different experiences. So I've noticed that, especially when it comes to betrayal trauma, maybe you were light the kind of a a a history, like, of yours where you're not sure what's real, like, actual gaslighting when you were younger, not like not
like social media gaslighting where there's, like, disagreement. Right? Like, actual gaslighting Yeah. Of, like, intentionally abusing someone to think that their reality isn't what it is versus, like, I don't think you're right in disagreeing with somebody. Yeah. I've seen this, like, object permanence or this, like, if I say it simpler, like, this consistency wound and this disbelief once consistency occurs. Yeah. And it's almost like, the trust
levels decrease significantly if they're consistent. It's like so can you help me understand, like, what was your process with your own protectors to, like, trust consistency great question too. How does someone do that? How did you I I Kipp just popped into my head right now. I, I think it was because of my the boundary I set with my parents. Because there was this period of time where I was uncovering my trauma history, and I tried to talk to my parents
about it, like, for months months months. And I got just shot down every sing that's not true. How dare you? This camp what are you doing? Why are you ruining our family? This is all your fault. Like, I got so much pushback that I needed to separate from them. I didn't think it would last 7 years. Never thought it would last 7 years, but I was like, I I can't be in connection with you because I'm not strong enough to hold my own with you. So it was during that time where I had no contact
with the pushback or the nontruth. No contact. None. You know? That I that I was able to, I think, have this other relationship, and there was nothing else competing. You know what I mean? It was like this I lived far away from my family. I didn't really see them. I didn't have contact with them. So I kind of created this this idyllic bubble. I didn't do it consciously. Mhmm. And so it was say like, they weren't gonna come and get me because I lived across the
country. They didn't they didn't know how to contact me because I didn't give them any access to me. So I have this carved out safety to explore this. Like, I didn't think of it consciously at the time, but I really believe that contributed to, like, I was totally safe in this way, and so I can receive this different way of being without the threat in any kind of way. You know? It wasn't like there was any threat around me. You know? I created a boundary that allowed me to kind
of explore that. Like, because with my, like, my clients, so many times people have these powerful powerful healing sessions, and then the next week they come back and they're devastated or they're fearful and their protectors come back because it's so scary. Right? Good is dangerous. Yes. Good is dangerous. I didn't really have that experience because I just I live I created a life
that that I didn't have that in my life at that point. And then at some point, I was strong enough to reenter the family, and I knew my truth regardless of what they said. So they're able to reenter and say, you can think whatever you want. I know what happened. Yeah. And I don't even need to discuss it with you. Yeah. You know? That makes sense. Did anything transfer onto Michael in terms of a lack of trust in the beginning? In terms of, like, trusting his consistency?
What do you mean? Did it train like, did I Like, was there was was there any, like because, you know, like, when somebody comes to your primary attachment figure, you bring your history with you. So it's really easy to think that he's doing something to you like your parents did that he's not. I didn't have that. No. Yeah. I didn't have that. It was so that's why I was like, I don't this is like I'm I'm entering a foreign land. Like, I was
different, and he was different. Now he had just come off an abusive relationship himself too. He was with somebody who was kind of not good for him. So we were both in these vulnerable raw states, right, when we met each other. And it was a very there was the there was a fragility about both of us. And, you know, there was a moment, and I write about it, where he was kind of in a shitty mood. And he's like, I I think I gotta go. And I'm like, okay. Go.
I'm gonna go to the beach. He's like, well, do you want a cup of tea? Okay. I'll have a cup of tea. Like, you know, it it it involved we we ended up spending the the day together, but it it was such a moment because he could have yelled and screamed and blamed me like I knew, but he didn't do that. He kinda took responsibility for his I'm in a bad mood. I need some time by myself. I'm like, well, that's different. I never heard that
before. You know? And then I gave him space. I wasn't, like, meaty or clingy. I'm like, fine. I'll go to the beach. And so he appreciated somebody giving him space, which he had never experienced. So there was this corrective thing for both of us that fell off of each other. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you want some tea? I'm like, okay. I'll have tea, but I can go later. I
don't care. You know? And so it was, I think, we were both surprised by who we met because we were both we both had similar histories, and we both were attracted to somebody who wasn't like our parents. That's right. That's right. I love that. Shocked by that. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And I love that there wasn't, like, a protector ejection happening either. That's I mean, that's No. I think that's pretty rare, actually. I think I did had done enough work by then. I think, you know,
I I do. Like, I was in a lot of therapy for a long time, and I think I had healed enough to stop seeking redemption. I really do think. And I didn't know it at the time, Mastin, but I I I I was no longer unconsciously looking for someone else to heal me. Yep. And that's what we mostly do. Yeah. You know? I didn't know that that's what was happening in that moment. I just know I just knew this is totally different. I don't know the hell this is. You know what I
mean? Totally. Yeah. That's what I knew. I knew it was different, but I didn't realize I stopped seeking Yeah. Somebody else to heal my wounds. And then in doing so, also, a lot of wounds were healed. The the Yeah. I'm like, it was a whole different level of healing. Yeah. Yeah. It a whole different level of healing. Like and you know what was weird too about the relationship? Because I'm often like, with people who have attachment wounds,
I'm like, you need a period of time to be alone. Like, just stop doing the serial relationship stuff, learn how to be alone, and then meet somebody from a different place. And I think that's the majority of what I recommend. And I I was alone for 3 months before I connected with him, and all my friends were like, come on, man. You're gonna be single. You're gonna be a party boy. We're gonna teach you how to be a single slot in in Provincetown. You know? And I'm like,
okay. Alright. I'll do it. You know what I mean? They're like, you need to be single, and I knew I needed to be single. But I it lasted 3 months before I met him, and it was shocking to me that I learned how to be alone with him. I learned how to be alone in connection, which was surprising because he was, like, not offering up any any jewels to my little wounds. He was he really wasn't. He's like, he had done enough work on his
own. He's like, that's yours. You're gonna deal with it. I'm not gonna take that on. Like, he didn't he wasn't offering to heal my little Frankie. So I was left to deal with him while in connection. Mhmm. I was surprising. See, it's it's worth it's like sentences like what you just said is, like, one of my favorite things about you. Because the way you put things together, it's like, that makes so much sense, and it's just, like, really powerful.
I I can't remember. I I'm gonna paraphrase. I'm paraphrasing. But, I'm pretty sure Harwell Hendrix or Gottman, I can't remember which one it was, but they one of them said something like, you it's hard to heal relational trauma until you receive love from someone who your unconscious mind has linked to your caregivers. And Yeah. I'm kind of wondering how that ties into this situation because it's almost like you're saying not exactly the opposite, but you're sort of saying the opposite. So could
we speak to that a little bit? Because I'm curious about, because, you know, attachment, based therapies are powerful. There's some things around it that I think, like, you know, self energy versus the attachment figure being the therapist. So different to be self led versus the therapist being attachment figure. But could you speak about that? Because I think one of the dominant ideas is that I kinda have to get the love in this relationship
I never got when I was younger from my parents. So could you speak about that? Yeah. And that's one of the big differences in IFS than many other therapies. Like, and Dick Schwartz, the founder of IFS, has even, like, went too far on one extreme. Like, other connection doesn't matter. It's only about the self to part relationship. Like, for many years, he held that very strongly. He doesn't believe
that anymore. I know that about him. But there is this issue around what can I provide for the parts of me such that I don't need you to provide it? Mhmm. And that is a difference in IFS. It's it's internal attachment versus relational attachment. Like, there's a difference between connection and attachment. Like, I think connection matters, but I think too many people bring their attachment wounding to their intimate relationships, and that messes them up. Yeah. I did it. I did it Yeah.
Many times. I did. So I got to a point where I was no longer needing something from someone else. Like, when when Michael's like, I need I need to be alone, he's telling me that's about him. It has nothing to do with me. He's not rejecting me. And I'm able to say, I can be alone. I'm gonna go to the beach. Do you know what I mean? So there was no history of his or mine in here. He didn't need me to be something, and I didn't
need to be it. Yeah. You know? So we both had enough healing to be able to be differentiated together. Yes. Right? And that's not what most people do. What would you do if you had to differentiate from someone who wasn't that organized and they were in their attachment Mastin, what would that be like? You wouldn't stay in the
relationship. I don't think I don't think you would stay in the relationship because if you have the capacity to really differentiate and own your own and have the expectation that the other will do the same, if they keep projecting onto you, it's gonna be just it's you're not gonna stay very long. Yeah. You're not you're not gonna stay or you're gonna keep trying to fix your unresolved stuff with them. And and then you're not in differentiation even though you're using the word.
100%. That's exactly right. You know, I expect you to differentiate is not the I'm differentiating. Yeah. You know what I mean? So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've gotta hold that clarity within yourself, and people either join you or they don't. There was this one moment, and it I I remember early on, we had gone into couples therapy around this inequity and desire for sexual contact. And it was his attachment
wound that came up in a moment. We were driving home from this couple's therapy session, and I said something about, look. If I don't get what I if I don't get what I need, I don't need to stay here. And he thought it was like I was being desperate with my neediness, and I was like, no. Like, if I'm unhappy, I'm not staying here. I am not gonna stay in something that isn't good for me. And that was a moment for him. He's like, holy shit. Like, I have to take care of my attachment thing. You
know what I mean? So I was very clear in that moment. Like, look, buddy. If this isn't gonna work for me, there's nothing that's gonna keep me here if it's not if it's not good for me. Yeah. You know? I don't need to be here for you to heal my attachment wounded. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Kind of like that. So we both experienced the other person saying, uh-uh. I'm not fixing yours. Yep. So No. Thanks. You didn't say this, so I'm gonna I'm not saying you said this, but
Yeah. Are you implying that love in a romantic adult context is not unconditional? It is not unconditional. That's correct. Like, it's pay to play as Santacon says. It's it it's like that. Yeah. Like yeah. I don't I think your relationship with your children is unconditional. Yeah. And I don't think your relationship with your adult partners is unconditional. I think it's give back better. That's what I think. I love that.
Think it's give back better. It's like, I'm gonna give you all I all the space in the world for you to be you. And because you give me that and it feels so amazing, I'm gonna give you all the room in the world for you to be you. Mhmm. That is what we that's the that is our agreement and our relationship. I love that so much. I really do. It's it's a it's a pay it forward. Like, he's given me so much freedom and so much space to be me. That's all I wanna give him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That
makes tons of sense. So speaking of differentiation, I wanna I we I'm aware of time. I wanna, like, Kipp, parlay into one other piece I'm just really curious to ask you about because it's not exactly in the book. But for me, it's the conversation around the book and what the book represents, which is your differentiation from the therapy community. Because when I met you, you were you know, I think it was a PESI course or something, and I would just fell in love with how you
presented. It was so amazing. You were funny. And, you know, just, like, how you talked about suicide is how I thought about it, which is serious, but also, like, there was a level of, like, levity to it Yeah. And how the work with suicidal parts, all these things. I was like, this guy is, like, awesome. And And then we connected a couple years later. Yeah. And I I I met you when you were kind of, I feel like, ready to differentiate. But I'm curious what it's been like for you because,
obviously, you're still doing you're still a psychotherapist. You're still a psychiatrist. You still do trauma work for with people and healing work. You have an institute that you started. And it seems like you're not where you were in a way in terms of the community that you're in. Like, you're still doing stuff with PESI. You still you just spoke at the trauma conference. You're at this NetWorker. But Yeah. Which is like that's like your domain. Right? That that area. And, you
know, IFS Institute, all these things. Now you're stepping into this larger thing. So Yeah. How is it what is that process of differentiation been like for you in terms of stepping into a wider audience? Yeah. Yeah. You know what? It's I really feel compelled to do it through a higher purpose. Like, it's not a conscious decision. It's like, Frank, you have to bring trauma healing to the world. It's like, okay. I'm not quite sure what that means,
but I will. Signing up. Like, where do I sign on the line? Right? And it's like that. So when I start holding this and I really it's a purpose. Like, I know what purpose is now. I this is my purpose. Right? So I know that now so that every decision is is funneled through that. Okay? And so I look at psychotherapy, and I think psychotherapy is helpful. But, you know, I went to I went to Cambodia and China this past fall, and I'm like, there's so many people that are are
are traumatized in the world. There's no effing way psychotherapy is gonna help them. We've gotta get outside of psychotherapy. So, like, I have these experiences that are saying, we've gotta move beyond psychotherapy, and I've gotta teach people how to do this who don't have access to therapy, not by the way, not not covered through insurance that costs exorbitant amounts of money because the
health care system is so messed up. Right? So I keep getting exposure to this the the how the bigness of the world and the value and the limitation of psychotherapy. And I do think there's a value and a limitation to it. Right? And so instead of staying in the world of psychotherapy, I'm moving outside the world to expand
this vision to a larger world. Like, I went, at the trauma conference, I met this guy who was some Kipp of something who was the medical director at Goldman Sachs, and he ran the medical department at Goldman Sachs. And he is now working I think he's working with Jewel on her non for profit foundation because she has a school, because of her history, with all these kids who don't have access. And I was like, I I gotta, like, I've gotta do
be involved in dance programs. I gotta be involved in surfing programs, in school programs. Like, I have this awareness that we've gotta heal outside of psychotherapy Yeah. If we're gonna help people. So I don't know what it's gonna look like, but I'm you know, you and I know we were involved in the kin I was involved in the Kinnergy program with Julianne Hough around bringing trauma informed movement to dance platform. Perfect example of more of
that. Like, I've it's like I've gotta bring it outside of psychotherapy because not everybody has access. The general public is still like, I don't have a trauma history. That's not me. Yeah. There's a lot of people that don't buy into it. So, you know, I think about the movie like, 2 movies always come to mind for me. The bear, this series, the bear, and, Ted Lasso. Yep. I'm like, these people are dealing with relational trauma, and they never mentioned the word trauma.
Yes. And they are accessing millions of people through popular media to help people learn about healing from relational trauma. I think that's brilliant. Yes. I think it's brilliant. You know? Absolutely. So I I'm I really am in evolution is what I will say. I you know, I'll say this now, and I boy, my family is gonna kill me, but I know there's a 4th book in me. Oh, yeah. 4, 5, 6. I I know there's a 4th it needs the 4th, and it's gonna be
the how to heal trauma in the general public. I'm just so clear about So I have to I feel like I have to teach the world. And I'll use all I'm grateful to all the model makers. I'm grateful to all the Ivy Tower people. I'm gonna take it all and assimilate it in the way that I do and digest it in an easy to understand form for the general public. Like Yeah. So it's not that I'm throwing all that stuff away. Yeah. It's that I'm gonna incorporate it, assimilate it, and bread be the bridge to how to
bring this to a a large group. Yeah. I think I think I'm I'll put that in the past, present, and future tense. You have been, are, and can will continue to be the bridge. Yeah. Yeah. Because I've experienced you in that way. So you just said something that I just had, like, maybe 2 questions to wrap up their personal curiosity. What's the difference between treating trauma and treating a mental illness? A good question. Trauma is what happened to you.
A mental illness, interestingly enough, is also what happened to you, but there's a different energy to it. I think there's the difference let me see. I think there's a stronger biological correlate with mental illness Yep. That is also environmental. Yep. And and I think trauma and mental illness both have biology and environment, but the way that I and this is coming off the cuff as I I've never been asked that before.
Right? I think mental illness has a greater percentage biology, but also environmental contribution, and I think it Kipp in trauma. I think trauma has a greater environmental contribution, but it also has a biological phenomenon. So I think there are different percentages. And one of the things I've always been like, with trauma healing, I help people release what they're carrying that doesn't belong to them. It's not theirs. Yes. Trauma energy is not ours. We absorb it and we internalize it,
But it is not ours. Even transgenerational trauma is not ours. So for trauma, there's a releasing what isn't ours and doesn't belong to us to bring you back to your clean, clear state. Yes. Right? Mental illness, I think, is more complicated because I think some people have it. It's passed down through generations. Yes. Environment and medications and therapy can help it. I think that susceptible susceptibility for relapse is a different level of something.
So I I think there's something different about it. And you know, this gets into the whole parenting paradigm because so many parents are pathologizing children with mental illnesses when in fact it's environmental parenting that is being brushed upon kids as well as culture and society. So I think we need to tease those things apart Yeah. So that we can help people release what isn't theirs. Yeah.
And let them be themselves. Yeah. I I we wanna ask you that question because, you know, I am on the opposite spectrum of this space because I'm a coach and college dropout. You completed college multiple times. So, you know, you, you you've you've done you've done residency. I mean, you're
on a physician, a whole another level of of of education. However, the question I always I've I've been thinking more about this question because when when I get into conversations with people who are on opposite sides of and there is more of a bridge happening, but opposite sides in the conversation on who's qualified to heal trauma, A lot of therapists that I hear from say, well, that's a
that's a therapy thing. But when I look at, like if I if I actually go to the state statutes and I go to, like, California, I look up LPCC and, like, the legal definition of, like, what does it mean to be a LPCC? It's like, well, you have an advanced degree that allows you to be basically get this specific credential. And when you look at, like, the degree and what the credential allows you to do, it allows you
to diagnose mental illness and create a treatment plan. That's basically what it allows you to do. And I'm like, well, okay. So but what's and then I was like, what is the difference between mental illness and trauma? Because the DSM, I believe, was first published in 1952. Well, the human race has been healing trauma for way longer than that.
Yeah. Way before there was a APA and stuff like that. So I'm just I'm just I'm trying to figure out the difference between those things because they seem similar. And, you know, like, we do similar things, but I don't do diagnosis. I don't prescribe medication. But I do work with the nervous system, and I do help people do similar things you talked about. So I'm gonna say that's a question. I so I think there I think people who are licensed therapists aren't necessarily
trained to treat trauma. Okay? And I think either our coaches, I think, and I say this when I talk to residents or I talk to, PhD candidates or things like this, trauma is specialized treatment. Yep. And whoever you are, psychiatrist, social worker, coach, you need to get specialized treatment, specialized education in order to treat trauma. That's where I think it goes across the board because Yeah. Like, I came out of residency without knowing anything about how to treat trauma at all.
And I became the psychiatrist at the trauma center, and I dove into working with doctor Bessel van der Kolk. And I read every book, and I went to every workshop. I did EMDR. I did the central motor psychotherapy. Like, you need to have trauma requires specialized treatment. That's specialized education. That's what I would say. Right? And there are many coaches who call themselves trauma experts who don't get the education, and there are many therapists who have a a a letter after their
name who also don't get the specialized treatment. That's I've done so many consultations on therapies gone wrong because people don't know how what specialized things are required. So that is what I that's where I say is the crossover. It's one of the reasons I am opening this trauma institute is because I wanna bring that education in an integrated way. Yes. To people, Right? Yes. I do because I think you can really re traumatize someone when you don't have the right tools.
Amen. I do. I do. And and that goes that goes for a lot of people with or without initials after their name in my view. Yeah. I love that. I I love the way that you say things because it's, like, inclusive, nonpolarizing, clear, and bridge building even in that statement. You know? I just I just love that so very much. Okay. Last question for now. Yeah. So, what do you think the future of the DSM is? I I don't think there is a future for the DSM.
Yeah. I think it's Like, with all this with all this, like, psychedelic research and understanding that, like, you know, it's not a chemical imbalance most of the time and that there's all these other issues and inflammation and depression and attachment and environment and like, we're we're seeing the biology of things so much clearer now.
I'm just kinda curious what you think the future of diagnosis is in general. Well, the future of diagnosis is different than the DSM because the DSM is a politically complicated machine, and they had an abysmal last version so much so that all the insurance companies don't use it anymore. They use the IDC coding. Okay? So they threw out the it was such a mess. Even all of the insurance companies threw it out and don't use it. So that says something about their classification system. It's not
effective. They're using the IDC 11 now that's coming up. You know what I mean? So the DSM is is a problem. Diagnosing, personally, I think is pathologizing. I I can see value to some degree in people understanding themselves and not blaming themselves for their symptoms. So I can see value in that way. But I also think it's problematic, and it's very pathologizing. And it doesn't look at any positive intention to any symptom. I'm always like, thank your trauma response, not get rid of it with
pills and therapy. Do you know what I mean? So it's very pathologizing even though it can be helpful to give someone a framework where they don't perpetuate shame or blame. Yes. Oh, I mixed I mixed about it. Yeah. Because some people are like, oh my god. I had no idea this is what it was. Thank you so much. It's so helpful. And other people like, I'm depressed. I'm broken. I'm such a
bad person. Yeah. Exactly. And the the the general public will take I've seen so many people take it on as a identity. Like, I am so OCD, ADD. Yeah. Yeah. I'm bipolar. I'm bipolar. I'm bipolar. You know? And you're just like, no. That's not that's not the vibe. You know? So I love that. Well, Frank, thank you so much. So where can we find this book? I'm assuming it's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere books are sold. What's your website? How do we find you on social
media? Let everybody know. Yeah. Yeah. And my so my website, frankandersonmd.com. It's a brand new website. I'm so excited. It looks so good. So you can go there and order the books through there. Yeah. It's, social media. I'm on all the handles now. You know? Instagram is probably the one that I'm most active on, but I'm on, LinkedIn. I'm on TikTok. I'm on Facebook. What going to the website, you can link to all those things. And yeah. You know, Mastin,
I I'm think I'm gonna have a a mini heart attack. The first airport I'm in and I see my book in the book on the on the stack of bookshelf. So it's supposed cancel on the heart attack, but yes. Like Yes. Let's get, you know, Target, Walmart, Barnes and Noble, you know, books.com. It's Kipp it's it's everywhere supposedly. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm I cannot wait to see it and people and another thing I'll mention, the audio version is coming out June 4th. So I read myself, which was such a
cool experience, and that'll be released. You can preorder it now on audible.com, and it will be officially released June 4th. Love that so much, Frank. I could talk to you forever because we do. So Yeah. I I'm aware of time. So thank you for being here. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for, being a way shower for us on so many levels. And just thank you for writing this book,
and thank you for your time today. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate you and all that we do together and you providing this for me. So thank you. Beautiful. Alright, y'all. Go get to be loved, doctor Frank Anderson. I can't recommend it enough. See you soon.