The Plantsman Dan Hinkley

when we began creating magazine stories together. I've had the pleasure of spending time in the beautiful gardens that he's created. He's a close friend and someone that I greatly admire. Hi Dan, and welcome to my podcast. Martha's great to see not in person, but it's good to see you. Look terrific, Oh so do you? And I love you. I love your background that very beautiful painting. Dan is sitting in his architect designed house, designed by his husband Bob,

and the house is full of treasures. Lots of local artisans, lots of local craftsmen created beautiful, beautiful backgrounds for every single view in the house and Uh, that's who who painted that painting, Dan, Let's Alfredo Arguin, who's a Mexican Northwest painter. He's he's an amazing guy years old. I think it's very beautiful. Well, Dan Hinckley, plant explorer, the original orchid thief. When I read this essay in the New Yorker magazine by Susan Orlean about the orchid Thief,

all I could think of was Dan Hinckley. Uh, Dan Hinckley has traveled far and wide, climbing mountains, swimming across rivers. You have to tell us a little about these trips. Was the most extraordinary plant exploring trip that you have ever taken? I would probably say Northern Myan, mar back in two thousand and thirteen. I really felt like I was on a path that few had taken, and saw plants that few had seen, and was able to bring seeds back. No orchids, Martha, I don't take orchid orchids.

Is that just a preference you don't take orchids? Or is it a a rule that you don't take orchids? Why? Why? Why don't you take orchids? There's very stiff international regulations about taking orchids from the wild because of the profound impact that they've their populations have had from people collecting them. Theyre you know, such collectibles back especially during the Victorian ages, and enormous numbers were taken and populations were affected, so

they are sights protected. Um, however, I can bring seed of orchids back and we propagate those in the test tube, But no plants. What about tissue cultures. Can you take a tissue culture of a plant in the wild, Well, yeah, you could. You could take a cutting of a plant I suppose to bring back for um, the embryos or the rescue of the maristam, I should say, and we've used that, uh, that technique, but especially with seeds that

are not fully ripened. So if I were to find a seed of some species in the wild that hadn't I've reached its viability yet for sewing, then we can take those undeveloped seeds and raise them in the test tube. It's called embryo rescue, which has worked. I have an iris and blossom in my garden right now from northeastern India. It's a brand new species that hasn't been described yet,

but that came from embryo rescue of the undeveloped seeds. Yeah, so the me and our trip was the one that you really found to be the most fascinating, the most unusual, the most distant. How high did you go? It was a trip up high on a mountain. How what was the altitude? Well, relatively not about fifteen thou feet is what we made it too. And that was the top of the mountain that we were on, So you know,

relatively speaking, that's not terribly high. But um, if I get much higher than that, then I run out of plants and I'm just on rock and snow. So it was high enough for me. It was. You would have loved that truck. I mean it was true mole villages first and then up on the side of a mountain for days, and it was just absolutely thrilling. And how

do you arrange such a trip? I mean, I love to garden, as as I think everybody listening knows, but I have never really been on a on a exploration trip like you go on looking for specific plant material. Do you know before you go to a place like me and more that that you were going to find plants that no one has ever seen before, or no one has cultivated before or do you just hope, Well, you do hope, and you know you have to make

you also have to have seeds waiting for you. So it's that's sort of a crap shoot in itself, because if there's no seeds that that year, you have to go back. I equate it, and I'm going to stop and say, you know, I've invited you on numerous clicking trips with being oh, I know, and and I have never I've never had the time, my schedule at that particular moment to go on a trip with Dan, and I regret it. I regret it. And every time I think about you, I regret not going on that that

one fantastic trip. So we'll we'll do it someday. Yeah. I equated to going to the grocery store when you go on these trips that you have your list of things that you think you're gonna buy, and then you see things in the in the vegetable and fruit section that you had no idea. We're there, we're ripe, and and you um, you go into a different direction. And that's primarily what these trips are. Like, I have an idea what what plants are going to be there and

hope they're gonna have seeds. But then of course the full picture is so much more rich and opulent than you ever expected, and each trip becomes so much more than what you had hoped for. And that's so that's so encouraging. So you went that me and Mars the most extraordinary trip you've been on. What's the What trip did you discover the most plants on? I would say the the area of extreme northeast India, the Arunachal Pradesh has been the richest area that I've ever traveled in.

And the area of northern Vietnam, which I just got back from. I know, I was so happy to hear that you were traveling. I was just thrilled that you were on another trip. What did you find there? Oh my gosh, Um, I know you love pogonias, and I came back with about ten new species of pogonia. For me, I'm not certain what the species are yet, maybe they're brand new. They were fantastic. So these pogonias that you

found in northern Vietnam. Now, are you the only plant explorer going on a trip like that, or there are other other people who are traveling to these remote places to find new and brilliant plants. Oh, there's there's a good number of people out there on both men and women, Martha, they're doing excellent work. I'm not certainly the only one, and I'm not certainly the best of them either. Um. There there are people out there doing it, but fewer

and fewer. I'm afraid it's it's becoming more difficult politically to get into countries and get permissions to look at their plants and bring back seed. So, uh yeah, it's it's not going to become easier, I'm afraid in the future. So that trip that you and I are going to take better happen pretty quickly. Okay. So, so imagine a trip that you still really want to go on that I would love to go on. Also, what trip would

that be? I think I would take you up the Mulla Coola River valley the Aroun in northeastern Nepal all the way up to the very border with China to a little village called Topla. It's about a ten day hike, and I know how much you love to hike, and I think that you would just have the time of your life. The most beautiful territory remote villages and still living life as they have for centuries. So that's one that I would take you on. Okay, that sounds good.

And where do you where do you sleep? Do you take sleeping bags in tents? Take tents along the way and uh? And you generally have a crew that brings you coffee to your tent in the morning before you're even now you're sleeping back. That's the best part of it all. Because it's cold. It's cold. Okay, what's the altitude there? You can get up to nearly twenty feet on some of the passes, so you don't want to

stay up there. Of course at night it's very cold and snowy still, but um, you know, you you go up and over and then back down into the valleys where it's where it's still temperate and and the plants are growing. So I don't have a map of India in front of me. Is this anywhere near catching Junga where I did go when one spring early early? Yeah, So that's a that's a very appropriate question because in

Nepal we're on the west side of catching Chenga. And then if you're going to northern India into Sachim you're on the east side of Catching Chunka, so that that's where I was. I was right on the east side I was. I went from northern Sakhim as far north as we could go trying to get to base camp of Catching Junga, and we were blizzarded out. One morning we woke up we had has this happened to you? We were in our tent. Uh. I was with Sandy Pittman and a very unlikely fellow climber, Um and it

was Um, Donald Trump's sister in law. And she had the last name Trump, and everyone in India thought she was because she had a taj mahal. In New Jersey, they thought she was a princess. And she got sick. One night we went to bed in our tent. She slept in the middle because she wasn't feeling too well, and Sandy and I slepped on either side of her in our sleeping bags. And the morning Um that the

disaster happened. We woke up and I couldn't breathe. We were about seventeen thousand feet at this time, and I couldn't breathe, and Uh, snow, about three ft of snow had collapsed. Our tent onto our faces. So that happens, right, Did you ever have that happened to you right in the same area that you're talking about in North India waking up with our our tents completely collapsed on top of us from unexpected heavy snow. So then this happened in the in the pall as well. When you get

up high, did you take yaks with you? No, I've never I've never trekked with yaks. Though you come across the large yak trains as they're as they're you know, crossing those mountain passes, so you you associate with a lot of yaks, but I've never traveled with one. We had yaks with us. We had about five yaks carrying all our supplies and they were buried under the snow. They were buried also, but they sort of liked it.

But Blaine is Blaine Trump. She was married to Robert Trump at the time, Donald's brother, and she uh, she we had to leave because she was ill and also because of the snow. But before the snow happened, I noticed for miles and miles and miles on the trail before us, what were these small brown shrubs. No, lee sort of a deciduous plant, and they and and there were miles of them. And what do you think those plants were? They hadn't come into bud or bloom. I

think you were in with barberries. At that altitude. It would have been miles and miles of of alpine barbarry of berberous. But there's also alpine rhododendrons. That's what they were. They were. They were rhododendrons. And the guide showed me pictures of what it was going to look like in three weeks from when we were there, and I said, well, what are we doing here now? I should have been here three weeks hence, because those rhododendrons were the bright,

bright magenta rhododendrons had not yet bloom. So I was sorry, And uh, but it was. It was an extraordinary trip. And on that trip we did see wild orchids, and we saw wild begonias, and we saw all kinds of amazing things. And all I could think of at the time was where's Dan Hinckley. He could be telling me what everything is. But uh, but that goes back, that goes back quite a while. Dan. It's extraordinary to do what you do and and how did it come about?

How did you become this first of all, this amazing and walking encyclopedia of plant material And when did it start? Did you always know you wanted to study plants and collect plants? Uh? Well, I can remember being fascinated by them as early as I can remember planting seeds with my dad, squash and boards and morning glories. Uh. And as a young kid, I remember hearing about plants in Michigan. They might have been rare or seldom seen, and I would make it a quest to go out and find

that plant. So it started in my own backyard, in the acreage realm our family farm, but then further afield, a little bit at a time. And and you know, like all passions, Martha, we we add to our knowledge bit by bit, So we don't start with a an enormous um encyclopedic knowledge about anything. Look at how much you know about so many things about cooking, et cetera. But you add to that repertoire, one one plant, one spice at a time, and and after a while you

do seem to know a lot. I think, Um, that's what That's where passions lead us. But your memory is so impeccable when it comes to it. I mean I can remember Blaine Trump's name for Heaven's sake, and and uh, but I and I haven't seen her about seventeen years. But but you remember every single species, every single cultivar, every single genus of every single plant of every single everywhere, and uh, and that is that is just a talent that very few of us have, really, uh have that

encyclopedic knowledge. And your books are like encyclopedias. Your catalogs are like encyclopedias for the plant person. Well, um, I'm the same way. I I remember plant names. The people names are are hopeless with me. So um, you know, we we jettison those things that were less interested in and retain those that we are. So I don't find it all that remarkable. As with all things, it's you know, self learning is what takes us that that last mile

to really understanding what we do. And that's the case with me and gardening. So did you start your garden at Adherents? What Harnswood was Dan's first famous garden and that's in uh in Indianella right in Gianola, Kingston. Harnswood

is in Kingston. When did you start Harronswood Garden. We began that on September one, is when we took possession of that property and Robert and I started taking swipes at that land and not really knowing what we were creating at the time, but no one behold it's still very very much intact and um now owned by the Port Gambles Glalum Indian tribe as a public garden. So pleased with that. And we're accepting visitors five days a week. So amazing what thirty five years later is still happening

in that garden. And all those very small plants that I put in, you remember those small little plants you purchased from Herons would so many towering trees now so incredible. If you have the chance listeners to venture to Kingston, Washington. Uh, this garden is certainly a site to behold and a place to learn. Herron's would named after the Heron who lived near the property right right flew off flew off the pond the night we opened the gate and took

possession of it. So the land got its name that night. And how many acres is Harron's would now fifteen acres and it's changed remarkably since you've last seen it during COVID years. Martha, I can't wait for you to come to visit. We have a brand new stumpery about an acre and a half in size, which is um to showcase ferns and fern allies. It's absolutely beautiful and we've expanded our woodland twice the amount and have now a rock garden as well, so a lot of things happening there.

It's an extraordinary place to visit in a group efforts, so I hope people will come to see it. What is a stumpery stumpery um, Well, it was quite the craze in the in Victorian Victorian times in England where people started collecting curious stumps from around the countryside and bringing them into their gardens and then planting ferns, which was the plant of choice during that time as well.

You know, the praise of ferns, especially during the Victorian Age was exceptional and so the um fernrees became relatively popular in England, in the UK and Europe during that time, and then they've fallen out of fashion, but there seems to be a rebirth of this style of gardening and we had so many stumps to choose from. We brought in about fifty old growth stumps from around our region that were donated to us and have planted about three

hundred different species of ferns throughout the stumpery. So it's pretty amazing. Um, I can't wait to show it to you. Oh, I can't wait. I am not seeing a picture of it. Has anybody done his story on it? Very few. I think it's maybe it's time for the magazine to do a piece of collaboration. We must do a collaborative stumpy. Are they are these stumps with the roots attached or

these stumps just sawn off pieces of trunk. Well, we we tried to keep the base of each stump attached, so you know, we could plant in between those buttresses the roots going out. But for the most part the root systems had rotted away. But there's some beautiful, very structural stumps of cedar, especially, and they still you can still see the springboards in them, those notches that they used to sadly cut them all down during the the

logging era here in the Pacific Northwest. It's some and of course there's a they acted in as nurse logs, as well, so there are naturally growing ferns and huckleberries on each of the stumps as well. And how big a garden is a stumpery? How many acres? It's about an acre and a half, so it's relatively large. And we just have constructed a weeping wall, if if you remember, I have not forgotten trying to convince you to do that. And in Skylands in Maine, and we've just done a

small weeping wall. It's not gonna be as magnificent as yours, but it's gonna allow us to all those wet, lived loving ferns and and associated plants in the next and crannies of this dripping wall. So it's gonna be very fun. Is Dan Hinckley cannot resist when he visits a new property. And he came to visit my beautiful, beautiful property up in Mount Dessert Island right near Akkadia National Park. This was quite a while ago, and he saw this one granite cliff and he said, that has to be a

weeping wall garden. And it's waiting for you. It's waiting for you to come and and tell me how to do it, because we have the water, we have the cliff we have the mosses, and now we need Dan Hinckley to help design this weeping wall. Um, and you're gonna be thrilled with what I'm planning to do with a lot of the area there. It's I have so many plans. I don't have enough time for all the plans I have thought about. But that's what every gardener

face is right time. Uh, And it's uh, the faster you plant, the better it is, because plants take a while to grow and mature. You taught me that. And how long did it take to get a garden to look like what you wanted to look like? Would you say? Well, I think you're looking at five years generally speaking, of course, depending on your climate. But I always I always tell

people that on the fifth year. You know, plants, the first year they sleep, the second they creep, the third they leap, and then by the fifth year your vision starts to come together and and then you get to start editing. But yes, um, I agree with you, totally. Don't delay planting. If you wait for that perfect plant to come along, you're wasting years planting. And then uh, give the give that free away if you find something

um better in a few years time. But get get plants in the ground, let him get established and start enjoying what the to offer. I totally agree with your dad, Dan Henkley has taught me so much about gardening, and now gardening has sort of overtaken cooking, entertaining, being with friends. It's just taken over over my life. Uh. And I really and I really want to plant more and more and more. I love to see things grow just as you do, and after herons would when you find these

souled herons would. I was heartbroken when you sold it to Burpee Seeds. Remember remember, but that enabled you to then buy a new garden, at least a new spots, new spot for a garden not far away. Tell us about tell us about Windcliff. Yeah, so that's where I am right now, enjoying the view outs of the Puget Sound. It's six and a half acres on a high bluff about three feet above Puget Sound. We look due south.

It's rocky, sandy soil, and this self facing aspect has allowed me to grow so many plants that I could not grow at Heron's Wood. So as luck would have it, Um, I get the opportunity now to enjoy both gardens with the shade shaded treasures over at Heron's Wood and then experiment with these sun loving plants here growing out on my bluff. It is a large collection of aga panthers, and included in that is is one we named aga panthers Martha Stewart, which is one of our favorites here.

Always ask about it when they see it. Oh and you know, Jan, I now have about four or five large pots filled with more the and they bloom. They bloomed so beautifully this year. They are beautiful. I love my namesake plant so much. And Ryan, my gardener, he forgot to bring them in my house when they were in full bloom. They could have looked beautiful down, you know, on the different tables in the in the rooms. But what what a spectacular plant that is. And thank you

for thank you for my my namesake plant. It's it's beautiful. But so you have. But you not only have a goat panthers growing you have you can grow gigantic agaves outside gunneras. I've been trying to grow a gunnera for years and years and years now with climate change, I haven't tried it lately. I might be able to grow on here now, but you're gunnera. Just make me cry. They're so beautiful, and uh describe what a gunnera looks like, well,

very dinosauric, I will say that. Um, if you think of an enormous rhubarb, if you're not that far off. Though they're not related. They call it the prickly rhubarb in South America where it's native, and they indeed eat the stems of gunnera like you would rhubarb. But it's a briskly leaved perennial with the leaves that will can reach up to ten ft across if it's well grown. So these that they've already emerged and are magnificent in

the garden right now. With the flowers that are these large cones about two ft long that come out from the base as well. So it's a very awesome plant. But I don't think it's the the low temperatures that you have, Martha, but it's the heat, the heat and humidity on the East coast that's going to prevent you from growing. And so I think climate change is going in the wrong direction. I have a picture of you by the way in your just peeking out and Dan

looks dwarfed by this gigantic plant. It's just incredible. I mean, it's just an amazing garden. And there is a book tell us about your book when did it come out about Windcliff right in the middle of the pandemic. It's called Windcliffe Plants, Places and People. And I think you pop up into that book more than just a few times, Martha, because you've been so instrumental m in my education and on so many different levels, not just plants and gardens,

but the way way to live. But it was just an opportunity to celebrate the opportunities I've had as a gardener, as a lowly gardener from from nowhere northern Michigan, USA, to to have the experiences that I've had because of my love of plants. And you were pretty instrumental and sharing bits, bits and pieces of your own life with me. But what we what we love to do is we love to celebrate people like you who who have done some such extraordinary things. Also, Dan has been a longtime

contributor to Garden Design magazine, writing amazing articles. In my library, I came across a couple of a couple of your of your articles. One was called remember this one talking about aga panthers rethunk rethunk and uh, he'll often he'll often make up a new word to to explain what he's doing with these plants. And that's a very interesting article, by the way, Dan, And that's from Garden Design two thousand and fifteen, the Summer issue, and that was a

whole issue. Um, there are a lot of seattle in that particular issue. I love that story. And then another article that I just came across was Mountains maples and metas aequoia, which are the giant redwoods, the dawn redwoods. Yes, such beautiful, beautiful trees. I have successfully grown lots of dawn redwoods here at the farm in in Bedford, New York. And they're big. Now you're you're gonna be surprised when you come visit me how how tall they have gotten.

And there and there they love you. They love your heat humidity that you have, and they grow so much more rapidly for you than they do for us in the Northwest. Yeah, the trunks are beautiful as they as they grow taller and taller, those convoluted trunks of the of the metis Aquoia just just extraordinary trees. And I've been growing a lot of magnolias too because of you, and they were very pretty this year. How are your

magnolia's They're good. I have a lot of species magnolias from Vietnam, especially in the garden, and some of my favorites Magnolia Wilson I. I think you have that one and some of the large camp belly eyes that they've already come and gone. So how many days a week

do you spend at Harron's would your former garden? Well, I've been about three to four days a week, but you know, I'm now going to be seventy and I'm finding it to be so much more rewarding to be right here at home with my dogs and in my own garden that I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to pull away just a little bit and center myself in my home garden. I think that's something you can relate to. Well, do you have a lot of Do you have a lot of good interns working at Harron's Wood? Now, we

have an amazing staff. Will have an intern this summer from the East Coast, and uh our staff is about one half from the tribe from the Port gamble Ste tribe and one half one tribal. So we couldn't be happier with who we have. It's a great team, great

team effort and real success story. I wanted to talk a little bit about the history of plant exploration because I find that fascinating when I when I see a scene in a movie or read a chapter in a book talking about the discovery of this or that plant um. The intrepid nature of plant explorers is quite legendary. How did it really start? When did it really start becoming a real passion. Well, you see the writing on the wall.

During the middle part of the of the nineteenth century, when the missionaries were sent into China, so Armand Davie comes to mind. He was the French missionary, French missionary UM stationed in Sechuan Province, so Armand David. He's responsible for the introduction of thousands of plants into Europe and he set the stage for those people in the UK and Europe to return to China to look for the seeds of those plants that he sent pressings only back

into Europe to Paris. So uhh, that's that's where George forrest came into play. Frank Kingdon Ward, Reginald fer Our, Ernest Wilson, all of those people from the late mid to late eighteen hundreds into the earlier years of the nineteen hundreds, that that was the golden age of plant exploration. And you're absolutely right, Martha, it was intrepid. They they didn't take a flight into Beijing and then had alt on a high speed train to the mountains. That it was.

They were gone for years at a time, and they make what I do pale in comparison. You know, they left family and friends and no phones, slow mail, and they were there in the in the thicket things, collecting seeds for us. So it was amazing. Amazing stories were told, and I love reading their accounts. A good book on plant exploration is just riveting for me. What's your favorite book? I love all of the writings of Frank Kingdon Ward. He and his wife spent um years in the areas

of northeast Indian Assam. He also spent time in China, and he wrote several accounts of these ord else that he went through, and I just I can't put them down when I when I find another edition of one of his accounts. Ernest Wilson was a good writer as well, and he has some amazing books, one called Plant Hunting that he um is well known for. And and as you might know, I might know, he ended up in Boston.

He was English, but he ended up in Boston at Harvard University at um Arnold Arberydom where he died much too young in the car accident. He was. He was amongst the the nobility of plant explorers in the earlier years of the twentieth century. And do you remember that Kevin Sharky used to work at the Arnold Arboretum when he was in college, right. He loved working there and

he learned a lot about trees. And I'm sure I have to ask him if he knows who Ernest Wilson was, because I I'm going to get his book right away if I don't have it someplace in my library. Plant Hunting. That's a good that's a good suggestion for all of us. Now about your design, because I think you are a fantastic landscape designer. Harron's Wood was a masterpiece. Uh and then Windcliff, which opposed serious problems because of your soil and your and your exposure and the wind um. But

you've created a garden there that's just utterly magical. And during COVID, so many Americans especially became avid gardeners. So what what what are like five rules that you would suggest to people who want to become a gardener. What are five things to really pay attention to when you're thinking about becoming a gardener, a serious gardener, serious landscape gardener. Okay, well five, let me see if I can come up

with five. I would say one garden within the prim matters of your of your place, place, not space, but you know, think think of trying to celebrate your own conditions and not try to make something that is a square peg being forced through a round hole. And blend in with your surroundings. To invest in hard escape, good quality hardscape right from the get go. And and don't go down the route to trying to redo or rethink your garden with herd escape after you've already established good gardens.

That's a very very good suggestion. Select good plants and and and don't be um suckered into color in the nurseries. You know, think about foliage first and then flower, because it's foliage that's going to really carry your garden through all seasons, if and if you're in cold climates, and then use conifers that are hardy for your area and

combine bark for the winter effects. Flowers are the icing on the cake, but the cake is really itself, is what carries the interests of the garden throughout all the years. I would say Number four I'm going to carry on is don't bite off more than you can chew. Let's take each small area at a time and get it under control, and then suiture those places together in your

in your garden. But I see too many people tackling an entire landscape in one fell swoop or having God forbids some landscape company come in and do it all at once. It's an adventure. Take your time and do it right. And five remember it's your garden. You're you're doing it for yourself, your own enjoyment. It's your garden, and so enjoy the process and enjoy the results. Those

are excellent. I'm gonna I am actually going to write down those and put them I think you, I think you gave me six, but um, but I'm going to write those down and put them on Instagram. So everybody, share them with everybody. I think those are the best rules. First, starting one's garden that I've that I've ever ever heard, it's a it's just been incredible talking to you. I could talk to you, of course, for jays and days

and days. We're long overdue for a personal visit. Are you ever coming to the East Coast or are you just bored with the East Coast? No, I'm not bored of these coasts. You know what COVID did to all of us. We hunkered down and now we're having a slowly get back in our traveling shoes again, and uh I will come to visit. I want you to come here and stay with us like days past, and bring Kevin and and your grandkids out. I have some great plants to show your inspired about the natural world. Jude

and Truman went to Antarctica. And Jude has just presented her film to her class. She's eleven. She made a film of their travels to Antarctica. And she made a film and it was voted the best film in the whole grade. Isn't that amazing? So I'm gonna I'll send you a copy when I get it. Okay, I haven't seen it yet? Please all right, and then I'll hold you and thank you so much Dan, and my love to Bob, and and to your gardens of course, and your doggies, how many dogs. And my dogs two dogs,

Baboo and Henry, there are golden doodles. And and your dogs are good. All four dogs are fabulous. Thank you so very much, see you soon. Thank you Martha,