Lessons from a “Girl Boss” with Charlotte Beers

who broke the glass ceiling in advertising. Charlotte has graced the cover of both Fortune and Business Week. In two thousand and one, she was appointed by the late Secretary of State, Colin Powell to serve as Under Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs. In two thousand and nine, Charlotte was inducted into the Advertising Hall of Fame. There's even a worse at Harvard that studies her leadership at one of the nation's largest advertising firms. Charlotte is

one of my dearest friends. We've known each other for many years. She's also served on the board of my company. Charlotte, it's a pleasure to have you on my podcast. Well, it's exciting. You know what. This reminds me of the time you and I volunteered to speak to a thousand women in Indianapolis and I'm getting ready with the script and you said, no, no, no, we'll just sit down and have pictures and we'll talk. And I thought it would be a disaster, because you have a lot more

pictures than I do. But in fact, it was spontaneous and we laughed and we talked, and at the end of it, I still chill up a bit. The women gave us a standing ovation. And the women in Indianapolis are not easy, and they appreciate because I just know who they are, and I respect that women in general are not easy. No, you're right, there's this funny offshoot of that which is not so glamorous. When I teach these executive women, almost always after the meeting they come

and say, women are not nice to women. So we're learning about scarcity, because if you think there's not another job, you'll compete in a harsh way. Men have learned how to compete at least overtly, more openly with one and well maybe openly, but not so nicely. In the last eight years. I would say men have treated men ideously well. There is a universal meanness running a foot in the world.

But what I'm interested in is what I learned eventually over time, in a ragged sort of way, is that generosity is one of the great assets you can take with you into business, and I began to finally understand it and practice it well. I think it would be really great to go back to how we met. Do you remember? I remember a wedding and I looked up.

I was with Annie Denver, the widow of John Denver, at this wedding, and she was still alive, wasn't he Yeah, at the time, but she was wearing this white picquet suit and she's petite, and I looked up in this sort of goddess like blind creature came over in the same suit, but she made the rest of us look like chopped liver. And that was you. Oh gosh, I remember, I remember wearing the same suit, and that was a very sexy suit. No, no, it wasn't wasn't you, No, no, no,

it was Terry Mugler. Oh no, the very tiny, ways kind of flare jacket, a short skirt. That was the michaelis wedding. Yes it was. And actually I hadn't yet come into New York and I hadn't quite faced what I was about to do in the world. But it was the biggest job I've ever had, though later I was going to get a bigger one. Well, Charlotte had just really had come to New York to see new apartment,

which was in the Waldorf Towers. She was the appointed CEO of Ogilvy May They're one of the largest, if not the largest at the time of the fifth largest, if largest advertising agency globally, and she had accepted the job and was coming to see what she could do to furnish an already furnished apartment in the Waldorf Towers and how she was going to make it her own.

You were setting down your roots in New York City, Considering I lived in Chicago and I've been around the world a bit, I was a novice in New York, and I have to say, speaking of us, meaning, I had no idea how lonely it would be to first of all, not be welcome because I was an outsider CEO and a woman, and the men who reported to me were shocked to find themselves reporting to a woman, and in some ways I didn't have their credentials. But later we proved to do quite a good job together.

But in the meantime I was going home to this empty hotel and one day you called, and you said, would you like to come out to the Hampton's kind of new ground for me? And I said yes, without knowing what I was into. I was too tired to do it, and I yet I didn't. That was amazingly generous. Speaking of generosity, No, but Charlotte was interesting. Here she is this, and you know, I am starting a company,

thinking about advertising and magazines and etcetera, etcetera. And here is the top woman in advertising, moving right into our territory. And and not only a beautiful woman, a very very smart woman. She would fit right in with my gang

of friends. At the time, I was pretty new divorcee, just finding my way in the social life of the Hampton's and New York City, and Charlotte was much more sophisticated than I was, and much more worldly, even though she came from the Midwest, Texas, so I knew I in Texas, but you were in Chicago at the time. It's true, so um, we just were right at the right time to become friends. And you know, Charlotte, it really is hard to find friends when you're in your forties, fifties,

even early sixties. You don't know how you're going to find new friends, and you've left behind some because your lives have parted. But you imagine having a friend that you can walk on the beach with and she will tell you what she's trying to do with time Warner, and the nerve of you thinking I might just pull out of there and gone out, which is actually stopped

me in fear. And I was explaining to you as a rehearsal how different a brand could be if you approached it from a different vantage point, which was a catechism I was working on for Ogilvie because Ogilvie was in terrible shape and dreaming about it wouldn't do it. And so Charlotte is re building Ogilvie. I am building Martha Stewart living on the media um. And as we cemented more and more of our friendship, I asked Charlotte to sit on my board. Remember, oh my word, the

board was so much fun. We were so raucous, and there were people there that you grew up. Well, one or two that were your allies and important confidance. But then you brought on some traditional board members who were just kind of horrified to have so many women in the room, saying, no, that's not how we do this. And no one could teach you how to do the work because you were the master of the word. I was doing the work they were. They were adding their

opinions and their suggestions. Uh. And you really tempered a lot of that board meeting. I really appreciated what you did for us, No, really you did. You helped a lot. And I must say also, like I can't speak like Charlotte speaks. In fact, I don't know very many people who can. She's like the orator with a golden tongue. That's what That's how I described it to my friends. Who's Charlotte. Oh she's an orator with a golden tongue. That's a pretty intimidating. But no, but you do you

speak with such a vast vocabulary. I think that must come from all the reading you do, because you do NonStop reading. I do, But I I have this, uh believe that were shaped so much and some of these, for instance, I had a childhood of some hostility and difficulty. I had asthma as a result of my family's chaos, and all night, every night, I read through the night, and I had the best, the most amazing vocabulary for

the fifth grade in the world. And from that point on, words were really my alt I was skinny, I had circles under my eyes, I didn't have much power anywhere, and words were in the game. And to this day, I think they've stood me as another way to be in the world. Well, it's it's just I love. I love just calling Charlotte uh, any time, any anywhere, uh, and just speaking to her because I get infused with maybe one or two new words, and and I would say, well,

that's a really nice way to put that. I say it to myself. But it's that meeting and then the fast development of a friendship. And then I introduced you. I guess, did you know memory already? I knew her briefly, Mary, who is our mutual friend, who is a garden designer and kind of at the time when we first met, sort of a New York socialite, more sophisticated at that than we were, very sophisticated, knowing how to how to

maneuver in New York, in New York dinner society. She knows how to She knew everyone, knew everyone, all the friends and people would call her and you and I would say okay. But the thing is, the three of us had a sort of a life cycle crisis in time. We were single, we were women trying to invent a new life, and we supported one another. And you know, to this day it operates. It's a pretty good thing,

it is. It's amazing, Charlotte, going back, even before we met, how did you know you wanted a career in business. Actually the significant thing and that education of mine is I chose to major in math and minor in physics because the option for me, this is it shows you a bit older than you are, was domestic sciences. And although you've made that a world class idea, for me, it was terrifying because all the men around me had

all the power and the money and the security. So given my background, I did not want to get trapped into the kind of domestic life that I experienced in my own family. So I chose those things to study so that people would think I could think like a man. The truth is I thought I could think better, but I had to prove that, and so I wanted to things. I wanted financial security and personal freedom to make choices,

both of which you attained. I did, and I think it's an illusion to say you do that without a cost. There are some costs. I've had more than one marriage. Is you pointed out on TV? How many marriages have you had, Charlie, I just can't remember. I know of at least three. Well, you were a bridesmaid in one of them, so you should have helped me out. I gave her her last wedding at my house in Maine, which was one of the most beautiful weddings we ever had.

Beautiful in our magazine or magazine. Oh my gosh. Yes, it was a beautiful, beautiful wedding, and you were so beautiful. The horse and carriage, remember it, it was so great. Well, but memory was there and our other blond friends. I was the standout in dark. But the thing is, I believe that we pay a price to have the exceptional lives we have, and it's okay. You make those agreements early on. So when I took the job at Ogilvie, which was actually past my expectations, because I'm going from

a smaller agency I owned to a giant one. I knew why I was doing it. I wasn't doing it to impress New York of the advertising world. I was doing it to see if all I had learned in a Petrie Dish in Chicago would travel to a world class universe and help these people turn their company around. To me, that's a mighty task and worth doing a lot for them. But when you came to Ogilvie that this is interesting to anybody who's interested in in really

building and rebuilding a business. Ogilvie was fifth largest agency in the world. What were the major clients Unilever, Um, Procter and gam Well. Broct and Gamble came later because they were once competitors, but Ford Motor was a huge company. American Express was a long time baby Ponds. There were kind of legacy accounts, all of whom were anxious and leaving. So it was a volatile time. In my opinion, since I know now that I'm a change agent, I'm better

at that than holding the course. I thought the chaos could be helpful to make change, because people of that size and that company don't like to make change. You came along and inventage your company and had to learn how to transfer the assets, the imagination, the entrepreneurship to another class. I'm having to guide a giant, nine thousand people and fifty offices toward a common goal. And what an admirable job you did because you brought in new

clients and new and new businesses. You brought in IBM. How did you how did you reel them in? Well, there's one of the fast story that I love. Because it was such a pain. I couldn't convince a number of key people at Ogilvy about this new idea. A group of us formed called brand Stewardship, which was a new theology of branding. I used to rehearse it with

you on the beach. In fact, sometime you were my guinea pig, and it was actually a brilliant idea that wasn't selling, and so I grabbed the last chance I had to talk about it when five clients invited me to speak and they had a number of other agencies. At the end of my do all presentation about what brand stewardship is, the clients stood and applauded. I have never had that happen before since with clients, and they all went home and called Ogilvie people in their countries

and said I want some brand stewardship. So that sold it through, but that didn't mean it went all over the world. And then IBM calls us on the quiet and said, do you want to compete for all our business? And they had forty five agencies and it was terrifying and nobody wanted to do it because we had to resign businesses to take it literally in shift to resign, Microsoft had version Microsoft Wich was a fledgling company at the time, but very hot, I know, but it was hard.

It's hard to even imagine Microsoft being fledgling to and IBM is this great modelith IBM's billings in terms, that's the revenue base we call the ad world was off the charts. But and also what the work was. Anyway, the thing is we won the account against all odds, really and brand stewardship was the corner stone of that win and that took it around the world. So my job was over. So describe what brand stewardship is because

again you thought big. You thought you thought in in new phraseology that no one had even thought of I mean brand stewardship. What the heck is that you made it up? I mean, this is did this is something very important which I have followed for so long. You became my best student. You're making me look really good,

come to think of it. But it's the theology of branding that says the motional content and the nature of the relationship between the brand and the users more important than the product itself, which is heresy for Procter and gambling people like that. But nobody has proved that better

than you have. What's the brand stand for now? In your case, it's your own value system and what you believed in it long transcended the tabletop setting, right, So no, it's an authenticity that that and the relationship with the client, with the buyer, the the end user that really makes the difference. And you you might have a similar plate to someone else who has a similar state, but your authentic,

your authentic presentation is what gets the customer. Now, the depth of experience with one another is just as important as it is in a family. So that was the idea of brand stewardship. Here's the amusing thing. By the time I jumped over to the state department. I was dealing with the world's biggest brand, and I wasn't quite prepared get into the stage department yet because we haven't finished with advertising. Charlotte mentioned that they represented Ford Motors.

Then Ford Motors buys a European Yeah, a Jaguar, which he immediately got. You got immediately got a Jaguar. You know, I love this story. I will never have another like it. The four other agencies competing all had car experience. We knew zip about cars. They're supposed to be a very special advertising assignment and nobody understands some except car guys. But I was in love with the Jaguar, and I was in love with the emotional content of a jaguar

and its relationship to his owner. Talk about heated. So we used that thinking. But honestly, the people that work in Ogilvy's made stunning pictures of Earth, the kids singing at last my love has come along, or the kid the kitten with the jaguar. Uh. It was incredible, and I loved seeing you driving around and your you had

a dark green Jaguar. If I remember, I had two Jaguars, and when we were pitching the account, it's still a story at Ogilvie that I threw one on the desk and the head guy was a dashing Englishman who loved his car. And then I said, that's for fun and this one and I threw the second set of keys on. It's to keep in the garage because everyone knew Jaguars broke down and he was fixing that. Well, it was incredible that you that you that was the first win. Yes,

that was amazing. And then and then you got the IBM, and then you got others and other and built you built American Express so beautifully. Oh that was That's a beautiful brand. And I I actually got to do an American Express. This is one of the crossovers. I look up one day and the MX brief is saying that they've hired Martha Stewart to do this spot. And you know,

by then you're pretty unaffordable. But American Express is budge it free, basically, And it wasn't it about in a swimming What was They were trying to show that that a specific American Express card was the only card you needed, so you were going to cut up all your other cards And they had me in the bottom of my swimming pool in Westford, Connecticut, cutting up tiling the bottom of the of my pool, so with all my cut up credit cards, and it was Venus on the halfshell.

You know, they're very beautiful painting, the Italian painting of Venus on the clamshell. And so it was a spectacular commercial. I missed these times. I think Budweiser can still do them where the budgets are big and the intent is emotionally stunning. Yes, But so advertising went on and on. You really did change the landscape for advertising in the United States and elsewhere. But mostly I remember in the United States and um and advertising became sexy because we're

fun again. Well, you were sexy. You were very sexy CEO wearing these very beautifully fitted suits. Remember the where did you get all your clothes? You got some fabulous shop out in Chicago. Well, there was a shop in Chicago that dressed me to the tins and nice Ultimo doesn't exist anymore, but that woman scoured the earth for fitted suits. But you know, I had to be as tailored as my clients. The head of Nestley was the

most beautifully dressed man I'd ever seen. I was thankful to have my beautiful suit on, so I couldn't go too far and I didn't want to any where. You were wearing Armandi, you were wearing fiery Mugler, you were wearing you were wearing a lot of really beautiful and you know, I was those. I was on the board

of Federate department stores. And I'll never forget when I didn't want to go because I was tired, I didn't have time, and the man explained to me, I'd get off of my clothes, and I thought, that's it, I'm doing it. And then I was very well dressed. You were. You were always well dressed and well often made your friends look at our stuff better we I did, you did.

But Martha, do you remember that you and I were the only women, and that in many ways on these big forums where we were getting awards and the way that we're worked more than the now, as someone would be invited to present for you, and that would double the horsepower. That's how they do. So I want marketing something or that you introduced me. Then you'd win something and I'd introduce you. And we were in a sea of men in Texas. Oh yeah, well, we were. We

were powerful women as we still are powerful women. But it was fun building that perception. Well, I was so glad to have you on the stage. So you said you were a natural and advertising. Why were you a natural? I think I think you know when you have the work you need to have if you never know what time it is. You were always like that, but not many people are. I know people. I've always known many people who watched the clock, and I don't regards them

that you can't be immersed. But what happened to me is the love of words and ideas ideas ran the meeting, not the people, So hierarchies diminished. I'm a bit of a maverick. The creative people are bizarre and my favorites and the media orders it. And then there's this act of persuasion between you and the client, and ultimately somebody has to woo them, and they're not necessarily knowledgeable about the outcome. You can't prove any AdWords, so there's always

a great deal of tension. All that brew was my cup of tea. Well, the adveratising you did, and the advertising is being done. Now, what do you think? Well, the world has shifted so much, and I'm in touch with a lot of these executive women I've taught, and they're running businesses that are focused on performance can be proven.

So digital average asking. The reason it's easy to prove it is it's not asking you to do anything unusual except click this, tip that or sign this paper so we can count the heads and it's reassuring the clients. But it's not the big thing. If you hand someone an idea that's larger than their brand, the consequences will change their life in the world. But it's very difficult

for people to justify or believe that now. But I believe that brands and their focus and their nourishment will come back full because digital isn't I hope so, because the digital cannot be the only way to judge the success of a brand just can't be well. Of course, sales are, you know, but in the last two years with COVID, a lot of things went haywire. That's so true, and advertising left the pages of magazines. Well we all

want now we're cautious in a way that's detrimental. So um, if you were focused on proving in your work works, you can guarantee it'll be obvious and simple. But I mean the whole thing that has catapulted you into more experiences and opportunities than you have ever seen is because there aren't too many full fledged, beautifully mannered, many textured brands out there, and we were thirsty for those experiences. So here you are at the top of your game,

not running only Ogilvy. But then you were also given the CEO job at J Walter Thompson. Now how could you manage two agencies like that and by the same parent company? Right? The thing is I grew up at J. Walter Thompson, so they knew me there, and they were having a dearth of opportunity, and I agreed to go in after I left and retired from Ogilvie and there was a fabulous woman running Overvie, Shelly Lazarus. They were in good shape, so I agreed to take this interimal role.

And I have to tell you we did some good. I helped them get some business, I helped structure some things, but they were changing the CEO. That wasn't a good solution for me. I think when you have done all these things in a most comprehensive way, it's hard to do anything part time. But then you were married, you got you had your new husband building art dealer, and

then you get a call from Washington. I was on the board of gulf Stream Aeronautics, and just like your board, I tended toward um privately held companies like Jay Crew and Martha Stewart Living and gulf Stream, which was owned by Forceman Little on the board were the most stunning group of men in the planet, all planning to enter politics. But Coen Pow was my seat mate. Donald Rumsfeld was in the room and not one of those people, um

Michael over Penskey. Well sometimes they did. Nobody talked anyway. Teddy did all the talking, but was a wonderful experience. The day that George Bush, George w got in on the skin, I would I'm not particularly political at this point in my life. I am just really making it through the tunnel of evolution out of advertising into marriages. Both Cole and Pale and Donald Romsfeld made me a job offer in the new administration, which was well for

for Donald Romsfeld. I think he was I never actually understood it, but it was sort of like the number one spokesperson or the Pentagon. That's actually not my forte. That's a mouthpiece job, and it takes a lot of tap dancing. I don't know how to do. And I'm not interested in reading speeches that probably were written for you. Yes, that was not based Yeah, and pal Gay he didn't

understand the job either. Is um diplomacy as practiced in the stage department had some transfers from the old U s I A. And when I read the charter, I thought, I've been trending my whole life to do this job. It is to build mutual understanding between the United States and the rest of the people in the world. Imagine an assignment. I was crazy to do that. That fits so well with your experience, because that's what you were doing always, every single day you were you were fitting

a product to the people. You were fitting uh, some idea to the people. And here you are fitting America to the people. It sounded good on paper. It's really hard to execute, for one thing, just as an asside in case you're all headed this way. Agreeing to be a presidential appointee means you have to have top security, which means they go through your life in a painful way. Lawyers are all over your books and your stocks and your finances. In your history. You had to give up

all your stocks. I had to lay them in a safe way. So I went to see Robert Strauss, the godfather to all the presidents. I said, Bob, I don't want to do this. I thought it sounded awful, and he said, honey, you've gone too far. They'll they'll find something wrong with you if you step out now. And I left. They're not convinced by him. And just like I recommend to all the people I've ever worked with, find out why you're doing something. What's your motivation for

this job? I was walking down the street and I realized, wait a minute, my brothers served in the service. I am just being asked to serve. Of course I'm doing it. And from then on I didn't look back. And then Charlotte was given the Middle East to uh well, nine eleven gave us the Middle and that was on our watch changed everything, And that you found it extremely difficult. Well, the thing I think is worth mentioning is that in business, Martha,

you know these things. We know that performance and profits and sales as is an agreed goal, and also the well being of the people in the harmony of your team, and so on. It's all comparatively straightforward, but when you go into government. I had lots of dirty tricks played on me, and I was shocked because we're in nine eleven. We're trying to do the largest possible thing. And what happened is if you don't share an ideology with a

particular group, they hope you fail. It's nothing in between, and the degree of the ruthlessness shook me up a little. They're used to. I remember when you when you were going through that entire period of wondering should I stay in public service or not, and you decided finally that it was you just had to get out. Once I got the briefing on why we were invading Iraq, the idea of trying to build mutual understanding while we were

on the warpath was not even possible. And privately, I have to say I didn't believe in the briefing, and it's hard you can't say that this is what I learned in the State Department. Every newspaper and television show wanted me to talk about while I was right, and they wanted me to out, and it would have been wonderful to do because I didn't like some of the people making that decision. I didn't like their decisions, rather

not them. But the truth is I learned, just like Coen pal did you send soldiers into the war, You're not going to diminish their purpose in going. So that's nothing I could write about. What's been your most amazing experience in your life so far? Thank you for so far. It's interesting. I was always aware that I would have a hard time retiring because i've My idea was George Bernard Shaw's quote, I want to be handed a mighty task.

I don't want to be a sniveling little person on the side begging someone to help me, or that's a paraphrase. But anyway, I was thrust forward and most of it was exceptionally rewarding. And then the government job was over the top and very complicated for me, but my learning curve was immense. So I think the challenge then becomes how do you shift gears from online power? And I found it by coming out of I hadn't looked up

since nine eleven and Washington. I look up and I see a professor's written a book Women Don't Ask, And Jack Welch wrote a book glorifying men in business to the exclusion of any woman who ever lived, which really ticked me off. And I like and admire him, but I didn't think there was anything operating. So I decided that I had better participate in sharing what you and I learned in some way that would be very actionable. So I wrote a book, which I don't It was

more of a textbook. I'd Rather Be in Charge by Charlotte Bears. That is not the best title, is it like that? Well? I wanted to say I'd rather you be in charge, but um, and I'll never forget Billy, a friend of ours, a publisher, he said, you should have said I'd rather be on top A man's interpretation of life. Well, this is what I wrote as the

market blurb on the back. Charlotte Beers is captivating, persuasive, charming, disarming, eloquent, substantive, successful, modest, strategic, capable, determined, convincing. Enough said, read this book to learn how to be in charge? And uh, and really it does help and it has helped many, many, many women be in charge. But that's a very beautiful list of things to be accused of. Well, those are Those are great and accurate adjectives for Charlotte Beers and so. But why only one book?

I I get very upset when a person writes one book, who's a very good, eloquent writer. By the way, So I think you have to have to apologie, you have to well, I'm I'm actually on another kind of book. Um. I have been inspired by some of the new shorter versions, not short in totality, but there's a skill to extrapolating out of your experiences and the people you've witnessed, pieces of life that other people can use. I'm on it now. I don't know how to fall so in a short sentence,

what makes a great leader? There is no way a great leader can be heard without developing deliberately a communication skill. And some people have odd ones and people adapt to it. But by and large, you have to be able to explain what you mean. You need to speak with clarity, and you cannot walk away from the burden of being persuasive. And persuasion takes emotion, and people think business talk is

clean of emotion, and it's not. The only successful moments you have is when you care so much you can't stop yourself. But you've learned how to express yourself well, how do you define leadership? I would say leadership is you're walking out in a path like you and I did, with nothing clear, no frontier in front of us, no path, and you turn around and people are following you. And why do you tell women to keep their own scoreboards? Oh?

I love this well because all during the time that I met the women after the State Department, the ones I and I bet even today, we let people tell us who we are. It's very comforting. Somebody pats you on the head, they tell you you're wonderful. Usually they're lying to some extent and you haven't worked out yourself. Or they tell you you're blue, but you know you're pink. And if you don't know your pink, you're going to

be at the mercy of that voice. So every day and every important meeting, you do the scorekeeping, and then people won't throw you off and you ignore what they say. I've been ignoring what people have said about me for years. What are some of the biggest mistakes women make in the business world. I think two things. One is more controversial.

The other one is bravery is important, and bravery comes in the form of communication skills that are not typical for women like anger and abruptness and a certain degree of firmness, and that strength has to be done in a woman's ways. You don't copy the man doing it. But I'm pretty sure men wouldn't take me on too readily after I had developed my way of expressing myself. But my second favorite one is learned to bluff. You

can't get by without bluffing. The world is complicated, there are many forces operating, and men know a lot about bluffing. When you play poker, I could play a great poker I like. I like card games. I think we should take up poker. I think we would learn and we could come the next up for the next decade. I think we should take up poker and we'll put We won't put money on it, We'll put great meals on that. I can get some really good teachers. They might be men,

but I think I know men are good teachers. But I think I have a couple of women who are also very good poker players. I should say that I never had better friends and more support than I did with the men I grew up with. I never have worked against them. I've tried to make sure the women are included. I'd like to see the men take courses in leadership. Now it's a lost art. Well, it's been so much fun and also very enlightening to speak with you on this level today, Charlotte. Not that we don't

always speak on a pretty high level. We do, but it's so nice to share your knowledge and your expertise and and uh and your ideas with our audience. And I'm sure that they were thrilled to hear you. Well, when I'm in the company of someone I love and respect, that's the best interview I could imagine. Before we get tears in our eyes complimenting one another, we will stay top up. But um, but it's been it's been a real pleasure to speak to you and and so valuable

for our audience. Thank you very much,