Homes: Evolutions, inspirations and curiosity with interior designer Michael S. Smith

a D one hundred seven times. He has been called Designer of the Year by l Decor, and he was appointed to the Committee for the Preservation of the White House In two thousand and ten. When Barack and Michelle Obama moved into the White House, they chose Michael Smith to decorate their residential quarters. Some of Michael's other clients include Steven Spielberg, Elaine Wynn, Shonda Rhimes, Harrison Ford, and

Rupert Murdoch, to name just a few. And today Michael is taking time from his very busy day to catch up with me on my podcast, Welcome to My Farm, My thank you. I mean, I'd always take time. We'll talk to you anyway. Well, thank you for coming all the way to Bedford and uh we are very excited

to talk to you. Before we sat down to do the podcast, Michael and I were ranting, as is our habit, ranting about politics, or ranting about the upcoming mid terms, ranting about a lot of other things that are going on. So now it's really a pleasure to sit down and talk to you about your real business. Thank you, fantastic business, which is interior design and decoration. Thank you. I am um,

I have to say after you. We're very kind about the I've actually they retired me and I'm in a pasture called the Hall of Fame, so I don't don't have to run the race anymore. Good hall of fame is probably better. But you're young. You're young to be in a hall of fame. You know what I used to be young. It's not yeah, it's over, it's on that. I'm on the I'm on the slide. When I first met you, you were much younger, twenty years younger. You were not even fifty years old, correct, And you were

on the top of the decorating heap. And you are continuing to be on the top of that fantastic group of really talented people who know how to make people's homes, make people's houses their homes. Thank you. Now, that's wonderful. No, when I met you, I wear shorts. I didn't even wear long pants really, so you are among the most respective, exclusive and most sought after original designers. When did you

start this design business? You know what's so funny because I started, Uh you're talking about I mean, look, it's a long time ago. I was twenty three. Um. One of my first clients. Look at I was so lucky. One of my first clients was Bruce Springsteen. I mean I had did you do his farm? I did not do his farm. That was another life, a different incarnation of his life. But you know, I did a house in l A. It was twenty three. It was sort of crazy. So I came out of the shoot sort

of speedy. Uh. And I was incredibly lucky. And people have been, thank god fortunately very kind to me and very supportive of me for a long time. I you know, I at the top of the heap. Is it's not so attractive, but I guess I'm happy to be at the top of anything at this point, so it's good to for me. Is very flattering. Good Like a heap can be a heap of diamonds. It can be like I was thinking, comy, no heap of diamonds. You are

ready brand is on leaves and compost and apples. I don't see anyway you are on furniture and decoration and paintings and arch and everything else. But but how do you describe the decorating style that has evolved as the Michael Smith style of decorating? Oh God, I mean you would probably be better at answering that than me. Um. I think, Look, I think what's interesting is I mean, I think you you. I think kind of everyone we know whose taste we love, I think I would include

you absolutely in that group. Is really about we're all kind of classicists. I mean, I think classicism is not just traditionalism. I think it's about wanting a kind of pure take on something. You know, if you're looking at Italian fifties or uh misce Vandero or contemporary architecture, I think you wanted to be kind of pure. You know that. That's what I think my sort of taste is. If I'm gonna do something, I'm really going to be interested

in a intellectual idea behind it. I'm gonna want to know sort of what was the what's the strongest version of it? And then if I want to sort of alter it or hybrid it was something else. I think at least I know the rules. It's like in anything, right, it's in food, it's in anything. I think you want to you want to know the original intent and then you can kind of make it into whatever is personal

or appropriate for what you're doing going forward. Well, having met many of the what we call the top designers top decorators around here in the world, um, Um, I sort of know the answer to this question about about what what you really do. But your job is really a big job because you're given a project. You're giving you're given a house or an apartment or a mansion or a building, and you are asked to make it

a living space. So, um, what does it take? What skills does it take to become Besides being a very friendly kind of person, most decorators are very friendly by the way listeners because um, and they hob nob with their clients, They entertain with their clients, they travel with their clients, They become best friends with their clients, and I think that that's very essential if you're really building

a relationship with a client. To to do that well, No, I think, Look, I think it's very you have to fall in love with your work. To do this kind of work, I think post COVID it's really hard. I just was super honored. I just received I think last weekend, an award in the San Francisco Antique Show. And I was introduced by a peer who I really respect, Suzanne Tucker, who said, you know you're a no. I don't need any an introduction. I'm a legend. I'm whatever years old.

How can you be a legend, You're not not my words, but legends are people who have retired or died soon. I both. But I was introduced with this sort of thing, and I got up in front of all these people and said, look, listen, I'm so honored, thank you so much. I just had a fight with my upholster. I mean that's you know, it's interesting. It's like, you know, we I may be on top of a heat, but I'm also on top of a big pyramid of a lot

of things that can go wrong. And post COVID, before COVID always difficult, but what about during during COVID whole other movie? Now, you know, I spend most of my time trying to things don't arrive. They arrived broken, were charged, to repair them. I become much more um the creative, which I love and listen, it's the sustenance. I couldn't do it if I didn't love the people or the job.

But the getting things done is becoming so horrible, and there's a kind of it just needs to go back a little bit to what it was where people really do try to deliver with some you know, it's like everyone took their belt off and it's just relaxed in a certain way. But it's very hard in what I do because so many people have to really give their best and be you know, sort of house proud and proud of their work and all at the same time.

So it's a really it's become very very challenging. Always tough, always challenging, but now I think it's become something unbelievably difficult. Well for you, let's take you just you finished just I think right pre COVID. You finished an amazing home on Park Avenue and one of the very see if schmancy is buildings in New York City, a building an apartment that other people looked at, many people looked at and couldn't figure out how to combine this. These two apartments.

Is it's a duplexes, it's two duplex, two duplexes put together. And so go through that, just go through step by step what it took to put those things together. Oh god, how many square feet did a tramp to be? Well? We don't have to mention names, no mention no, of course not um it uh. I think it's you know, I don't know. It's ten thousand square feet, twelve thousand feet. It's a very big apartment, very famously two apartments with two little doors, one on the upstairs, one on the downstairs.

And I think with Oscar Shamami and who I've worked for a long time, who's a fantastic architect. We I think many many people had tried to buy it and looked at it, and everyone thought you couldn't connect it. We had this idea of like taking out a stairway and changing where the stair was. Now it's a Candela building, who people, if they don't know, Candella is the most sort of lionized New York apartment architect of the early something crazy and um so the idea of this, this

reverence of his plans, which are great. By moving a staircase, it all kind of clicked into place and became one apartment, and that was a huge thing. Even people were super name brand people were sending notes to the owners saying congratulations. Too bad you can't connect them. So it's a huge victory. Lapp. Then it took three years, even during COVID, to to really remodel it. And that was, you know, kind of before before all this stuff happened and sort of changed

the world. And that was before distribution and supply chains word. So you know, it's a it's a hard it's building a ship in a bottle. I mean it's really hard. Apartments are very hard, just to get furniture up to those upper floors in New York buildings. I bought an apartment once. My daughter said when when Richard Meyer built those three towers down on the Hudson River, she called me even said, Mom, the first Brisher Meyer towers up, you have to buy an apartment in it. So I

looked at it. I bought the penthouse, which was two floors. It's a tiny building, and I never focused on the fact that it had only one elevator, and these were the top floors, fourteen and fifteen. One little elevator so to get anything to that apartment was meant a crane, meant closing off New York streets, meant lifting everything by crane up and put it, taking things down. It was insane, and you could only work a certain number of hours a day because because there was only one elevator and

it was for everybody. So so that was such a mistake. And then the windows started to crack before I even finished my job, so I sold it because who wants cracking windows in a in a brand new building? So but I I was a mess. And I can imagine in a fancy residential building on Park Avenue, how much, how much really diplomacy you had to Oh my god, no, no, no, please, I'm on first name, first names with every elevator operator and every backup house doorman staff and how many cups

of coffee did you bring to all these people? And a file? But I want to tell you that, no, it's so funny. So yesterday I'm moving people into an apartment on Fifth Avenue. I had to sit in a sofa before I got craned up. I posted on Instagram and it was it made you, made you actually love New York. I'm sitting on the sofa checking it out, and four people walk by. Of course everyone stops to talk to me. It's a leather sofa with sort of a fabric in set. You know, the cushions are fabric.

And this woman said to me, you know, my husband pointing to him behind there on their walk saying down Fifth Avenue, says, you know my husband slips on the leather. Do you think it's a good idea to change out the cushions to fabric. I'm like, yes, corduroy like my suit, same color as the leather. Everyone by free advice on Fifth Avenue. It's might I think I might want to do like a little pop up on Fifth Avenue. You could do it with me, would be great. And uh

but what was wonderful? Without exception, everyone stopped to say, I love the color. I mean it was it's what you love about New York, which is the engagement which we're also thirsty for, you know, kind of engagement like that after after kind of being locked up for a long time. So say you are presented with a simple house built in say the fifties, a good a good architect. What's the first thing that you look at? Let's tell us, tell us your process. Actually, let's make it a designer

house from the fifties. Okay, I mean the first thing I would look at look that that. I mean, I start really grow, right. So the first thing is always I kind of in my head make a list of two things. One is sort of implied, which is the house and the characteristics of it. Does have four bedrooms?

Does it have two bathrooms for the primary bedroom? Does it have a kitchen that's big enough to have eat and you know all the stuff that's sort of boring, but it's like functional, right, It's I would have said to you if you talk to me about the apartment doesn't have a service elevator. By the way, cranes have doubled since the day per crane, since you did that in that and that time, they've doubled and probably the

last two years. So a crane is a serious financial commitment. Um. But the first thing I would do is do that, and then I look at the second half of the list, is really what you want when you're buying this house? Do you do you need two bathrooms? Do you have enough closet space? How many children do you have? Do you you know, do you have a separate kitchen from a dining um. Really, it's it's the logistical stuff that I think you start with and you learn. I mean,

you know this beds and anyone. You've done so many houses for yourself, and I know so many lived in them. So wonderfully, I think that the people sort of go to the decorating. Should it be blue, should it be green? Well? Does it work for you? Do you have enough space for your shoes? I mean, it's not glamorous, but it is the foundation of everything, which is how does it function? And I think it's all of this is so expensive and so time consuming, the mistakes are sort of intolerable.

So I think that I try to really figure out how people live in a space. So if if it's the fifties designer house, the first thing I'll do is, you know, figure that out and in the fewest amount of cuts, how can you modify it to work for the people who are going to live there. I mean, it's it's logistics are the the end. But the beginning, I think is planning in preparation, and really does it

is that have you done your homework in advance? So once you get the architecture, the structure figured out, and the number of bathrooms figured out, and the style of the kitchen. Um. When you take out, say an empty living room, what's the first thing you think about? Is it a rug? Is it a color? Is it I mean, it could be eating. It's such an interesting thing. It can be all of those things. I think. Listen, rugs are always super important to me because I think, again

it depends. I remember you took me to a rug factory in Spain, to one of the Royal tapestry workshop. Oh boy, was that fascinating. We had Martha was really wonderful. When my partner, James Gossas was ambassador to Spain, Martha came on a representational trip and we had a completely wonderful time. And anything that I bought that I loved, Martha asked for it, and I gave a turn and she took home everything. But we have I mean, you've ever had so much cheese in such a short period

of time in your life. And then we went to the Mayor's head thing and the thing I mean, we had like an extraordinary trip. I mean, that was a that was a really fun, wonderful time. But rugs are big and I think that wall finishes or I mean it's very hard. I think that decorating now at this level um requires a combination. It's three dimensional chest it's you know, the wall finishes with the rug, with how the furniture plan is laid out. Do you want to watch TV in there? Do you where do you put

your Christmas tree? Do you you know, collect books or their bookcases? I think it's it's very macro. And then you go to things like the rugs, and and also where do people want to put their money? I mean, do you want to do on a beautiful antique carpet in that fifties house? Or do you want a wonderful thing from you know CB two or West Elm It's wonderful, that's simple, or you know a restoration woven seisle carpet.

And then you really want to put the energy into upholstery or art or bookshelves or you know, how do you want to balance what you have? And I think those are at the highest level. I think people don't quite realize all of those things, the the sort of you know, importance with air quotes of the house, where the budget or all those things. It doesn't really change those basic fundamentals that you know, no one's gonna say

do everything at full tilt everyone. Do you always have a budget or just so's some people not even care about budget. Well, everyone cares about a budget on their varying degrees, and they're varying focuses. But I think everyone cares about a budget. If you know, people, if anyone's listening and they don't care about a budget, you could call me. I'm happy to get immediately, please send me. Yeah, no,

I mean everyone does. I think it's listened. One of the reasons look at the great success I have over time is having done twenty fift ten houses for people. I mean, I think that you know, that's the loyalty the I remember meeting one of your clients and he told me that you had done that, that you were on your twenty one house, probably twenty three by now,

I think. And to work for the children of my clients so I met when they were five, and to do their houses now and to do you know, I'm leaving you and going to a house that that it belongs to someone I've known since he was five years old, and you know now they had a certain standard of living. Yeah, and are they going to expect the same standard or

can they afford the same thing that my parents afford. No, but I don't think that's I think look at I think you grow into everything and we think that would be inappropriate. And I don't think it's their interests, But I think that Look, I think that that idea of to your point about you started off discussing becoming friends or being invested, I mean the idea of seeing, you know, someone at five who I married with a rabbi when they got married and now has children of their own.

I mean, it's an incredible gift to have that kind of knowledge of knowledge about their taste, but confidence, and also to see it evolve and see pieces that were from their parents be reused in their houses. I mean, it's a really interesting um. It's been. It's been an extraordinarily generous group of people who I've worked for. But listen, I take that. I take it very seriously, take the

responsibility seriously, and I take it. You know, it's it's joyful to be able to contain to work on for the same people and the trust you develop with stuff. I mean, Shawnda rhymes and I had a conversation the other day where she said, look, I used to really ask you all these questions, and now I just know you know my taste and I just trust you to

do it. That's a huge leap of fat. Well, we just saw an architectural, digestive, beautiful story, a cover story on Shonda rhymes new New York apartment which is very very beautiful and very expensive and kind of very fancy, well very bridgertain like to stick to brand. We're on Bridgertain brand, uh for with good reason. I mean, look, I think that you know, it's it's a small apartment, it's a it's not always where she is and uh

to too, but it was a dream. It was a dream look for her, right, it was a dream look for her. And I think, listen, I think my clients, you know, and my friends are you know, they're brave. I think they want to they want to be in a different aesthetic. They want to kind of be immersed in New York when they're in New York. They want to, you know, they want to kind of feel where they are. They want a sense of place. And I think that you know, she had this vision of a movie version,

as we all do. With the New York apartment because all of us grew up somewhere else for the most part. And I think that, you know, she she we did that and it was fun and it was great, and it's not a huge apartment, and I think that it's cozy when she's in New York and um, but she's very eclectic. So she's gonna she's gonna move on from that apartment to a country house on the water, to a farm someplace some sometimes. And I that I like about people. I like people who live in different styles

well exactly. You know. What's so interesting is that someone said to me the other day, well, you know, I'm in my seventies or something and I'm getting so old. Maybe this will be my last house. And I was like, you know, people, I hope that people are brave enough to do houses into their hundreds, because look at you love doing houses and love projects. If if a project is fun, there's nothing better. I mean, you're building something, you know. I mean you always say not just for you, No,

it's not just for you. And also you can't live in a painting you know, I mean to to that if you have for me, I listen. I love art. I have so many art collectors as clients I buy or I wouldn't, you know, just describe myself as a insanely serious collector. But you know, houses are wonderful. I mean they're immersive there there, you know, to to be put into an experience to look out the window that you want are looking out to see these beautiful trees

with just the touch of yellow of fall coming. That's unbelievable. And I think that if you love houses, and but if you listen, I think all people have the same issue. Right, If you love houses, you probably love food, You probably love other people, You probably love books. You know, there's a kind of desire to be part of the the sort of flow of energy, and you're basically cure us, right,

curious people love houses? How could you not? So I think that I'm always enthusiastic about well, in the post pandemic time that we're living in now, homes, well, homes during the pandemic were became everything to us. They became our living space or working space, our nursery space, uh are our meeting place everything. And now in the post pandemic, what do you see changing? And is it changing rapidly?

I mean, I think, um, is it changing rapidly. I mean, look, I think people, you know, I was getting a lot of calls. I've looked at my bed for six weeks and one of us has to go, right, you know what I mean. It was sort of that kind of situation, people calling me all the time. Um. But I think now, I think it's changing. I think I think people are kind of Look, I think that everyone thought they were going to live in the country. I think people thought

they were going to leave New York. They were going to live in Some of my employees moved and hour and a half to three hours away. They found property and they thought, well, I can live here and I can work remotely. Well they can't. I think that tide is going back. I think people are going back to you know. But but I think there's still there's a hybrid. Now, I think there is. We're not going to lose that appreciation of I hope, certain quality of life issues, right.

I think people started to cook together, people started to have you know, kind of their pods in a way. I think people started to kind of appreciate things in a way. And I hope we don't lose that. But you know, the very thing that's making me fight with my upholster probably is a kind of lack of of of you know, get it done at all costs, or maybe putting work before the balance of your life. And maybe that's you know, I hope that people don't lose that.

And I think that there is something to be said about building that house an hour a way, but maybe use that on weekends, or maybe use it three days a week, or you know, I just I think that something has to go back. I think there was this fantasy that life was going to sort of disconnect um and I don't think that. I think that's changing. I think people are going back to loving having people over and loving traveling. I mean, I'm traveling, you're you and

I are both going to India in December. Different trips, but you know, we all want to see other stuff and do other things that maybe we didn't do for a long time. So it's a happy balance, and I think that people are trying to find it, and I certainly am trying to be mindful of it as well. Well. Boundaries in the home have become kind of have changed in the last couple of years. Bedrooms to become offices, um,

dining rooms to become schools. Um Now that has to be sort of put back, or our dining room is important any longer. Well, I hope dining rooms are important because I think again, so what overrides the multi use aspect of rooms like a dining room is do I want to add people over all the time? You know, I have people over four nights a week. I've gone back to that and I missed it. And I love

that connection, you know. I love that I spend you know, all day on things which are you know, production and completion and process, and I get to go home and talk about stuff that's interesting that you know, I can't. I'm not talking about issues of the day or politics or you know, books I read during the day. So it gives me this sort of other balance to my life and so that I in my dying room. Um. But some people manage to do both, and maybe it's

always awareless. And I've been promoting the idea. You know, we're sitting at a table with chairs, the dining table chairs, surrounded by your incredible cookbook collection. That's never going to change. I think library dining rooms are smart now as they were before. And if you have a wonderful chest. You can push that laptop into it when you have people over,

so you know. I hope also that some of the fears that we before COVID people were so terrified of what is entertaining and how they looked and how their house was, and you know, terrified of getting to go and putting it on nice plates and all that. I hope that's gone a little bit and maybe people are a little more loose and they can get your Marley

spoon and get him serve it to people. Washington with some of that award winning shard nave Yours now technology to the the the intrusion of technology into all our homes. That's the ring light for the zoom calls, the table for the computer at the right light, the right daylight coming in. I struggled with that for a while, because you want to look nice on the zoom calls. Calls I think are here to stay. Unfortunately, yeah, not not in my business, but in other people's businesses. Yes, it

doesn't work in mine. No, No, you can't. You can't show fabrics because they can't show you can't talk to him. I mean, look, the biggest I mean, look at technology is here to stay. I think the problems that we you know, I think I think the problem with it is I mean, and I say technology, I don't mean that that you have you have to use it. We have to have a computer someplace. We have to have the TV with all the stream streaming stations on it. We have to have the boxes, we have to have

whatever Apple smart TVs or one thing. But then there's all these other things that we want to have. Yeah, and and TVs have become so large. Do we have to have a room just for the television. It's probably a good idea good question. Listen, I've lost that battle long ago. I mean I think, Look, I used to be so dogmatic about this, right, I was like, you know, I mean, it's everything everything I can be can be.

Sort of goes to this very famous Duchess of Windsor sort of quote, which is that, uh, you know, a woman said to her, I think diamonds are vulgar, and the Duchess Windsor said, I used to think so till till I had them, And so I think, listen, I hated Jacuzzi. Guess what, Now I have them. I like them. It didn't feel so old and my bones weren't as susceptible to the charm of warm water before. So I think, you know, look, I think it's here to stay in

every bathtub. I don't know about every bath in my bath, of course, but I I think that the I think these things are here to stay. I think human comforts are always going to override everything else. And I think that you just have to do a great job of it, right. So, I mean, what's funny is when all of us were young, a TV was a twenty two inch television. Now it's a hundred, a hundred and twenty. It is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. I think you just have to

do the best job. It's great if you have the space to have a designated room for it. Not everybody does, and it's so it can be. But they're getting thinner and thinner, you can. I really do think I've come to an epiphany where I'm not as interested in hiding them so much anymore. I think they're a part of life.

I don't like hidden tell them. I think it's just so I don't even I don't even care about having a tile anymore because I used my iPad for everything, which is also stupid for your eyes, terrible, terrible for your eyes. But but I think seeing a TV, ouh, it's it's a wave of life. It's a wave life. And they're not so terrible. Listen when they were thirty two inches deep and they were crazy and they had rabbit ears or something, it's a different story. Now they're

quite elegant. There was a television that was just developed and we're so excited to kind of rolled out of a box. Or don't you like that? Yes, they've stopped. They're not going to produce it. There make it. I don't know. Maybe there's production issues, but we will get to a point. My daughter has one of those. It comes up out of a big box. But does it? Does it? Does it? But it comes up vertically like a like a pop up. No, no, there was a TV that sort of rolled up like it was like

almost like a fluid piece that came up. That'll come back. You know what we are this the technology of that is not my concern. My dream is the wall, the wall that just is a TV? Well that and it will two seconds away? Oh yeah, I mean does exist those huge screen sometimes square? It exists. So when I when I finally build my final house, which I probably never will do. I just designed. I have to tell you this. I just designed, with an architect and renowned architect,

a pool house or a new pool in Maine. And I showed the plans to my daughter, who's going to, of course inherit the house. And she said, mother, this is a mausoleum. Don't you dare build it? This is your mausm videam. And I felt, oh my gosh, that is a terrible, terrible thing to say, and I canceled. I canceled everything but the pool. Well, you should be braver. I think you should build things and not be listen.

She gets to listen, she gets to build her own male when she comes to let her, I'm going to let her build the mausoleum. But I got scared. I got scared when she said that. No, I understand that. Listen. I think look, I think things need to be thoughtful, they thought of. But I think you should be brave. I think you know, listen, you're not listen. I've hiked with you. You're in great shape. I I you're not going anywhere. No, no, no, I don't think that. I

don't think that. I just think that sometimes you sort of, uh, you have to sort of consider what do you really want? That's the hardest thing, true, but considering what you really want? Do you really want a large house on the beach or it is a little shack good enough? I think people often do that. I think I think that's a big thing. I think that people often don't think of

that ramifications of things like space and but I do think. Look, technology, computers, all these things are becoming more and more, um easy to live with. They're becoming more and more what we expect. And to your point, your wall is two seconds away

and it'll be fine. I mean, I designed a table I remember in nineteen I can't remember eighty or something for the New York Times, or maybe it's up sometimes during the eighties, a table that just floated on air current so you could raise it up or down if you wanted a table, a Japanese table to sit a Tommy style, or you could raise it up and chop on it. I mean, wouldn't that be a great Just make sure everyone wears underwear under their clothes. You have

a Marilyn Monroe like event. Um, So what are some of the most um, I just want to get back to you. You have an amazing roster of clients. What are some of the most unique design requests that you've receive? Unique design request? I mean, look, everyone has their their sort of cork or their thing. I mean, nothing terribly exciting.

You know, I've never done any dungeons or anything. Sadly, maybe those people with unlimited budgets can call me about that, but I you know, I mean I've had people who have asked me to have hospital beds for their six year old kids, and you know that are automatic and things like that. I mean things I thought were kind of insane a long time, but things like that that are crazy. I think it's more about um, things that are fitted, do you know, I mean things that are UM.

I have a client now who has like one of the world's largest collection of Star Wars figurines. Um. Now, I think that's great, right, what a great thing to collect. And I think so that how did you display? Well, we're working on it right now, so we'll do a very good job of it. Was like a museum. Yeah, it's like their own museum to their collection, which is great. So I'm always enthusists and listen anything anything that's not

boring is interesting. I mean again, it's the same thing, the curiosity, the very fact that if you're curious enough to sort of you know, look at their life and try to help them put that into into spaces essentially put you know, their their macro kind of life, intellectual life. And I'm sure you give obi Wan canobia spot obi Wan will be primarily displayed. But I think that the point is, I think that what about lego freaks. Do you have a lego free don't have any lego freaks.

I was a lego freak, so I completely I don't keep what you made. I never kept what I made. I never kept what I made. But I think that all of these things, I mean, look, anyone with any interest that's intriguing is great. It's really about how you organize it, right, I mean the cornerstone of all this and you this is what you do too fundamentally, people, I think we all share this thing, which is people knock things down, blocks, legos, whatever, and we put them

back together. And then they knocked them down and we put them back together. And our lives are a series of that sort of you know, amplified into the world. Right. I mean, it's like, you know, listen, I learned so much from you. I told you we talked about this the other day. To have your book on how to

Maintain a House. I've pore over it. I learned you know that these aspects which I think anything that helps people with the big issue of how you pick up your blocks met you know, sort of figuratively or literally and put them in order, relieves people's things, idea and stress about their life. And I think that's that's the greatest thing, sort of That's the thing that's fascinating is the more diversity within that process, the more interesting it

is to do it over and over again. Once you create one of your fantastic homes, do your clients really live in those houses? I make sure they do. Um, there are exceptions, there are people who get away from from that. I think what happens is, I think, look, some people want to build a set for living. That's a legitimate reason. You know, it's not I think we all have right. I mean, it starts with the parlor versus the family room, the rooms you let people in.

You know, there's already how doses have a sort of hierarchy and a kind of kabuki about them already what you show and what you don't show. And I think that, um, some houses, because of scale and you know kind of volume, become harder to live in. You're only so big and we're gonna take so much space. And so I think grooms don't get lived in to the to the degree that I want them to be. But I think that's

a legitimate reason. People get to feel better because they have, you know, a living room and makes them feel taller, you know they do. It's like it's a legitimate human condition. So I don't hold that against people. But I don't. I don't love to do stuff that people don't get to use or it's not somehow fitted to them. Right. It's like having a rack of clothes you never wear.

It's really not the idea that's fun for me. One of your most famous projects was resigning the living quarters in the White House for the Obama A small test, A small test. How long did that test actually take? You had to do it fast because they were going to move in. We had to do it fast. But start fanning before they won the election. No, I started planning after they won the election. Uh, you know, you

were going to be the desire of choice. I was quite I was selected late for most people not complaining. I got called on Thanksgiving week, so it was you know, relative, you know, relatively quickly right after election day. Yeah, pretty clow up two weeks maybe, um, and then you know, it was it was sort of a relay race. So I got to finish. So I did the first part, which was the most important that we're the most important

part where the children's rooms. I wrote a wonderful book which is sitting here called Designing History, which you have one of the few special edition covers with the fabric case the President Obama's curtain fabric for the Oval Office on the cover. Um. But I you know, I worked on it for a year, so it's an eight year project. But it went from doing making sure that you know this and Mrs Obama's. Um. First thing was that the

girls be comfortable. I mean, they're moving from a very sweet, simple house in Chicago that was to this, you know, the center of the center of America. And they were tiny children, tiny little girls, and I think this was the number one objective, is to make them com from and then from that everything kind of emanated. And then later you know, we were doing by tradition, all the public rooms come up for sort of renovation every seven

to ten years. And so I did the State Dining Room, and I did um what was called the Old Family Dining Room, and I did sort of the public rooms with a great group that Mrs Kennedy put together called the Committee for the Preservation of the White House. Is sort of a as a resource and as a partner on those. And then I got to design the dishes for the White House, the Obama dishes, and then I

got to work. And they are made by picard Um in the state of Illinois, and you know, a company that's in a lot of wonderful stuff for the State Department everything they're They're a wonderful company worth supporting. How nice the quarters looked so comfortable and and yet and elegant and workable and uh and fitting the White House. It was really they weren't fancy, but they were. They were still traditional but still young. Well, you know what it took. I took a lot of thoughts, as I

would for any project. Clearly this was maybe more heavy and dramatic. Everything I did, I knew was sort of history. If you move a table. It's history. You know, there's new nod acquisition. So anything that's been in the White House stays in a warehouse in Maryland somewhere, you know. It was, it was. I had a certain amount of way to it. So I sat down and thought about very seriously. I got, for example, the girls rooms. It

was so important to me that they'd be comfortable. But they're very I think when people don't know about the upstairs the White House is the rooms are really tall. And I didn't even know that because I, you know, by tradition, I didn't go in until inauguration. How high are this seventeen? They're very tall, but for a little girl's room, it's a little daunte, right. So we were very careful to try to combine um elements that were sort of white housey. You know. I took Baker historic

Charleston furniture and painted bright colors. I mean it would have been weird to do, you know, things that had nothing to do with the White House, but these were little kids who wanted bright colors. So it was a great And they had partners of people who helped me make things like anthropology and people who made things which were affordable and kid appropriate, and you know it was. It was terrific. It was a really wonderful experience and

I'm really happy. And I've been back once, um in six years, and I went, but we just recently went back because one of my last projects, which I was sort of helped them a Golden who's an amazing uh person in the arts who's the head of the Studio Museum of parliam It was her project, with a little tiny bit of help for me to organize the artists for the official portraits for both the National Park or Gallery and the White House. So there are two sets of portraits, UM. And so we went back to see

those portraits unveiled, uh upstairs. I did not go upstairs. I was very happy that my dining room was intact. It was great. I mean, there were chairs that I made for the State Dining m They're old chairs that were made for Theodore Roosevelt's dining room that Mrs Kennedy had painted and gilded and made work in the short

period of time. They were there were very heavy, so I made it set of chairs with help from Bill Allman, who was the curator then of duncan Fife inspired chairs that were functional that you could use around the dining table instead of these really big heavy chairs. And listen, President Trump used them for every of you know kind of interview. And that you see them being used now, I mean that you're part of that. You know, to be part of the fabric of that building is incredible.

And so I was very happy that my rooms were there. I did not go upstairs. It was not asked. So after you've done all these projects for so many other people, Yeah, you and James have collected about I guess four residences of your own. Four residents. Yes, I'm trying to five. It could be five, four or five depending on the day. Yes, okay, And so where are that you? I know you have a New York apartment a penthouse that is extraordinary. Thank you. And are you nor my neighbor is right still Yeah,

we're gonna have street parties. Um. So yes, New York. Um, you know Los Angeles. We have a house which we love in Palm Springs, Madrid and ma YORKA. So Palm Springs is rancho a utiful place. I I love Palm Springs and we've asked you have an open invitation. Thank you. I'll call you. We have green torn green corn to Molly's in the freezer whenever you come. I mean, it's just incredible. Which is your favorite house by the way of your own? Um that it's a card question. I

look clearly. Palm Springs Rancho Rah is the It's the place I sleep the best. Um is that an historic house and we spilt it's kind of a historic house. It was built by a sort of famous mid century architect in ninety one, and people it's sort of has a lot of aspects of it that people kind of historically think is really interesting. Is a sort of period

of kind of contemporary architecture in the desert. So it's great. Um, it just is something I think it's just sort of so magical because it's such a it's in such a quick amount of time to get there. It's so different than anything else. And so I feel really it's it's a place where I get to actually relax, which I don't get to do. And we still have a home

in Spain. We do, we have a we have a we live in apartment now and we're renovating an apartment that is um kind of ridiculously large but for for our needs. But we we sort of found something we thought was wonderful. And you know, listen, I love Madrid. It was one of the great um it's one of the great loves of my life is when my partner was ambassador. I we fell in love with the country and the people and so it's it's something hopefully we'll have time at some point in our lives to use

it more. But it was just you know, and that's been a really fun experience to build, because to build with all these European crafts people has been really fun. That's my real love of these houses, to do them. You know, it's not that's it's sort of relaxing, right Like it's sort of like I'm the cobbler who makes

shoes as a hobby, right right. I When people ask me where do I spend most of my time, it's in my car r exactly, you know, And that's that's a terrible answer, but it's a kind of a true answer. Usb on airplanes all the time, anterplanes all the time. It's blown up since COVID it was, it was not as much. But because as we said, I can't really I can't zoom it in. Literally it doesn't work to be as hands on and as specific and as to care as much. It's hard to do remotely. Um, and

I think that. Um yeah, so I mean listen, I like being on planes. I like that. I'm sure you feel the same way. You do some of your best thinking on a in a car or a plane, because you have a breath, you have and you can get to talk to people without interruption exactly, sort of solitude of that is kind of wonderful. So you've recently visited I didn't know this, but the Palace of their thought? I did. Now, what were you doing there? Measure measure? Yes,

I've been there a number of times. Um, there's a new hotel that just opened on the grounds of Versailles and uh with an Alan ducast restaurant, which is great, and I wanted to stay there. Was like I had one day. You know, I always say people people always say to me, you get to go the most beautiful places, and I guess, for you know, eleven hours and I'm

generally hanging a curtain or making a bed. But yes, so I got we went to I had for one night and we went James and I went and we the thing, that wonderful thing about this is you get this sort of private tour of Versailles at sunset. It so to be in the Hall of Mirrors with that beautiful light and in the you know, in the in the rooms and see it empty was kind of amazing. And then a great Atlanticast dinner after which is not never terrible. And the gardens gardens were beautiful. And the town.

I don't know if you've ever spent any time there, but the town of Versailles a beautiful town, charming town. So that was that was really wonderful, and it was sort of you know, you see all the marble work, and you know that I'm not probably going to do that for anybody, and soon I don't think to recreate for size in my future. But but it's but it's impressive to see the most propagandistic, extreme detail and kind

of look at it. It was beautiful and don't you sometimes scratch your head and wonder how did they do it? It's yes, I do. I do wonder how I don't want to do it? That would be the thing. I wouldn't want to do it. I wouldn't want to, you know, put thirty two different marbles and hope they fit with you know, rudimentary tools and no machines, no machines, and I'm done my hands as we know machines. Yeah, no, it's an extraordinary but it's still so beautiful. It's so

great that you know everyone. I mean, the first time I went to Versailla, I was probably a teenager. You know, it's just made this huge impact on me. I mean, it's great now that it's become listen the intent of what it's used for and how it is the accessibility of it, and contemporary artist going in and doing you know pieces um within that. You know, a variety of artists have been sort of doing installations. If it's great that has a life beyond what its intent was. Do

you have favorite client, favorite client? Or is that? Is that politically incorrect? No, I don't think it's politically correct. I don't actually have I really don't have a favorite client. I'm gonna kind of it sounds I don't I want to say. I'm gonna sound very sort of um overly simple in a way, I guess, But I really do love all my clients. I mean, you have to love

your client. You have to sort of love you know, as they say in the life to love your case, and you have to kind of love them and love their quirks. And there are two detwols and their children's toys and their dog that choose the furniture and all of that because it's sort of part of why their project is interesting and distinctive and not boring. Right, But we've been talking to one of the really amazing great decorators interior decisions. What do you'd like to be called

decorator interior designs? You know what, it's as long as sack is made out to know, I know what I would say. I think that I love you know, old time sort of beginning of decorating sixties and seventies, people were called decorators. I love that because I think that it's it used to be sort of uncool, and so I always I'm always going to go for the uncool in that situation. But you know, I'll answer to anything at this point. So I'm gonna ask you just a

few quick questions, quick short answers. How should one start tackling a design project? Well, I think I would make a list of all the things you want the outcome to have, right, like a list. I think I think you should. You know, it's as simple as paint. You know, a variety of samples of a color you want to use in a room and live with it. I think, don't rush, don't do it to your poolhouse idea, don't

build it and then regret it. Don't um jump into something without really thinking of the ramifications, and really be true to yourself. I think, listen, I think we've come through a period of Look at when all the style books came out, you know, in the sort of you know, Santa Fe style and started with American Country. Do you know that that is the first one? Right after my book Entertaining came out. Yes, Mary Emerly wrote a book American Country that was one of the very first one.

And listen, Nancy nover God was the editor, and she was a dear friend of mine. Still and listen, all those things that I made think made people terrified, you know, I mean, I think they made you terrify that you had to conform to a specific stylistic idea. And I think I think we're hopefully beyond that. But be personal, you know, try to think what works for you and

it is and is appropriate for you. I So I think that's the first list, right, you know, try to be as true about what you need and what you want. And listen, if you love you know, if there are couples who you know, husbands who love a feminine bedroom, who find it kind of soothing, and I mean, just sort of lay out your plan, make a plan, and then I think, really try to apply, you know, go for the best quality that you can because it's gonna last,

things like upholstery and things like that. And you know, but look, there's so much good stuff at the low you know, kind of an approachable end even and look at you've done so much wonderful stuff Martha that people can buy that's not terribly expensive. It is beautiful design. I love going into houses and seeing something that of my burnt hard furniture, which was so beautiful. Oh my god, no it was. You know, listen, you don't want to start me on on the metal bed. And I mean

I still think about all the time. But even I saw you just did some outdoor furniture that looks wonderful. Um, I still have you know, I just see your I'm testing I'm testing our outdoor furniture. It's made out of recycled plastic exactly. I would never think that I would use plastic furniture outdoors, but I'm I'm testing it over the winter. It looks amazing. A couple of little details

pictures that looks great. So there's so we live in an air where there's more accessibility, right, and I think that, you know, I think so so the overall writing thing, because that's maybe too too much to absorb. But I think, look at how you want rooms to function. Again, A library, dining room is great, you know, you know, or put it, put a table around, table that can expand or not in the corner of your living if you want your

dying of to be something else. I mean, I think houses now are about being personal, and I think we all love going to somebody's house where it really is a portrait of the person who lives there. That's the

most important thing. And then the other stuff just go slowly. Again, if you don't have somebody terrific that you trust to help you paint samples on the wall, do one piece of furniture, right and try and go to go to a local upholster refine furniture that you know we're all buying sort of used upholstery and recovering because we can't get stuff. I mean we're using you know, we're all

using local upholsters to do that and slipcover stuff. Um. And again, you know, if you're in doubt, get something simple and plain, a nice plain carpet. Again, with people like Lulu and Georgia and CB two and all these companies that you that we have access to that are online, you can get really wonderful stuff um that you know, we'll hold you over until you find that perfect rug.

Just the most common decorating mistake. Most common decorating mistake I think, Um, I think not um designing rooms for the funk when they're going to have right. I think I think having you know, kind of after the fact, discovering that you know what you really need to play more than a dining room. You need to you know, it's sort of like it just doesn't your house is out of sync with who you are. And I think also I also think young people feel the young people

young people now have this idea that everything's forever. There's a kind of all my clients who are young or like it's our forever house. It's like it's not, it's not, it's not there's nothings forever. And I think that, But I think that what people do is I think that they designed for the way they think they're going to live, and they don't do the time or have somebody helped them to break down really how they live and get

the best version of it. Right, how many elegant you know, kind of rooms that multiple function have you been in that are terrific? Right, it's the best? So not long ago, because I live alone now, I'm a divorcee. I live alone a long time ago, but not long ago. While shooting a gardening show for Roke, I told my production for that anybody purchasing a new home should plant trees first, love for you by any furniture that And I did that when I bought my house at East Hampton many

years ago. And and I remember having my first party in an empty house, empty and we said tables up outdoors. It was a summertime party, so it was okay. But people would come through. I remember Princess Radzwell coming through, Lee Radswell coming for Martha. Where's the furniture? And uh, and I just laughed it off because nobody in the Hamptons would ever have a party with an unfinished house. But I that's the way I decorate. I think my time and tried it. But figure it out important. But

do you think that's a bad idea for you young people? No, I just think that it's not everyone's first things trees. But in the case, but I still regret it. I regret on this farm. I'll take you around after Michael has never been to my farms. I mean take around. But the first thing, but those trees that I planted first, I just wish I had planted a hundred times more because in it's such a short time, they take over and make a place. No, listen, that's a big thing.

Everyone has their first thing, as I told you, Like when we started with the White House, Mrs Obama's first note was I want my children's rooms to be friendly. It was literally the first. She wasn't thinking about herself, no, it was it was it was I want my children's terms to be friendly with pops of color. That was the first note I ever got from her. So those crazy in the White House, right, Yeah, but those were

her trees. That's what she cared about. So fine for the president who was working so hard, wouldn't she say about him. Well, he could communicate independence. We talked about he could commune. He wanted a comfortable place to you know, to work and good reading light and a place to watch basketball games on the fourteen minutes. You know, probably you could ever do. Yeah. Now, as a designer, when when somebody buys a house, they've already in used in

the house, it's empty, they've hired you. What, what's the first thing you have to do? Well, I mean you have to mess the first furniture, the first piece of furniture. A bed is good, A bed is good. I also have a weird listen, this is a whole other podcast about my sense of ceremonial, like my shamanism about certain piece of verture, right, like, I don't think you should ever. The first thing I want to change in the White House was the bed because I think that no, no, no,

Lincoln bed. It was there, but to change and we actually put his I've never I slept in the Queen's bedroom. Not that I slept on the whitest ones, but in the Queen's bedroom. I thought I was a little scared to sleep in the Lincoln bedroom. I thought it was sort of like, you know, there's other stuff. Other people died in that bed, you know stuff. But I but my thing is, I think beds are very ceremonial. I think people don't give themselves. I think they put they

put energy and effort into other things. But I think if you sleep, even a beautiful bed, I think it's just it has a sort of symbolism but also a real reality. I think you sort of feel right, there's a kind of You've noticed that old that royalty, it was always about the state bed. I think there's something to be said about your bed being important to you. And how Wilkie, it's the third of your life is there? Do you sleep in a double a king queen? I sleep in a king and a king size bed. I'm

very happy about it. I now when we go to bed, it's it's like a science project. It's like, you know, it's like I drow. I mean it's the end is near right, eye drops and blackout, mass and knees a while. It's you don't even want to know. It's horrific. It's a horrific situation. But it's important. It's all important. And I think, look, I think you spend a lot of time in bed, and I think beds. Listen, you did more to promote beautiful beds and beautiful linens and beautiful

towels and all that. I think, listen, that is super important. You've had a career that's spent only three decades, but that in that three in that thirty years, trends come and go. Which trend are you so happy that is gone? Well? I think I've talked about it before, this sort of dogmatic thematic house. Right, So it's like I must have mid century house, and I must have all mid century furniture, and I must have mid century you know, uh dishes,

and I must have you know whatever, bakelite whatever. The purity of design that was sort of restrictive, and you know that that you know, if if I don't hear something I used to hear all the time, it doesn't go right, which is like that used to make my head explode. But I think that I think people are more flexible about design. That's that's blended, that's personal, that's a mixture. I think also, you know, I think that that was a very terrifying period. And I think that

we go through these periods. I think they come and go, and I think that period of sort of dismissive. I mean, you see it one of the few barriers. You still see it as people who are dismissive of other people's art taste, right, as if contemporary is the only true art, or modern architecture is the only true architecture. And I think it's really limiting, it's boring, and I think that those kinds of trends, I am happy not to see

a Santa Fe so much interior. I have to say, I don't need to see a blue dog or you know, tazuki basket for a while. When you look at designing history, the extraordinary art and style of the Obama White House, or another one of Michael's books called Michael Smith's The um Curated House, you will see that he is not um talking about the mid century modern interior. He is talking about tradition with so many beautiful elements. Thank you, beautiful,

beautiful rooms, thoughtful rooms that are for today's living. Thank you very much, Michael Smith. Michael Smith's can be found at Michael Smith Inc. Dot com, and you can also be found on Instagram at Michael Smith Inc. Yes my own crazy answer, I n C not I n K. Thank you so much Michael, it's always a pleasure. Thank you. I love talking on