Just like you would in any organization as a true CMO, you really have to exert that role and you can't really wait for them because a lot of people that hire fractional CMOs, it's the first time they've done it and they don't really know how to work with you either.
And so you really need to lead them and tell them what you need and show them why it's important that you are embedded in the business in a way that allows you to advocate for the customer that allows you to really advocate for marketing.
Hi, this is the Marketing Meeting and I'm your host, Itir Eraslan. Every two weeks I meet with experts and we talk about topics related to brands, marketing, and businesses. And we sometimes add random lifestyle topics too. I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome to the Marketing Meeting Podcast. Today I'm joined by John Jantsch. He's a pioneer in fractional CMO leadership, a speaker, and a bestselling author.
And he's also the host for one of the podcasts that I follow a lot, which is Duct Tape Marketing and founder of the Duct Tape Marketing Agency Network. Welcome John.
Oh, thanks for having me.
Could you tell a bit about the Duct Tape Marketing Agency Network because we're going to talk a lot about. Sure. Thanks. That's actually during the podcasts.
So I've have totally a little history. I started my own agency about 30 years ago and a really kind of a traditional agency. I just hustled whatever work I could get. Um, and you know, at some point I found that I really liked working with smaller companies, uh, but it was, uh, it was kind of challenging. I mean, they had the same. Needs never the same budgets, not even the same attention span really.
Um, and so I decided I needed to create a very systematic approach, a unique approach to marketing where I could walk in and say, look, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what you're going to do here. The results we hope to get, and here's what it costs. Uh, do you want it or not? And I found out pretty quickly that really trying to address my. Need my frustration. Um, I tapped into what is still today. Probably one of the greatest frustrations for many small midsize businesses.
It's hard to buy marketing services and getting harder. Everybody's selling a piece of the pie. There's a new platform every week. Um, and so I started writing about that and I did put kind of my system in my first book. I started attracting other consultants and agencies with that same frustration. Uh, they said, Hey, yeah, we need to have marketing as a system. We need to be able to walk in and install this system, and, and we really love your approach.
So I started licensing it to other consultants probably coming up on 15 years, uh, now, and we've had about 400 agencies and consultants go through our program. We license them and certify them to use our materials and our approach and our frameworks. Um, and then, uh, about a fourth of them actually participate pretty actively as a community and network and collaborate, uh, uh, as well.
I've been doing the fractional CMO role for seven years, which you have almost like double the amount of that for a long time for people who are not very familiar with this. Could you please explain what a fractional CMO is? Especially what type of companies a fractional CMO switches to.
So, again, I have to give a little history because I think it's changed a lot. Um, you know, it's the idea of a fractional CMO. Somebody hiring a part time person who might work for some other folks as opposed to bringing in a full time CMO. That idea has actually been around quite a while. But I think what's really happened is it's exploded both in kind of its Definition and application dramatically the last five years, I think people have realized fractional. Everything is okay.
You know that, you know, whatever role could be done as a fractional people are very comfortable with working with people that never come and sit in their office that, you know, are completely doing virtual work. And so it's really kind of opened the doors, I think, for a lot of people to really call themselves fractional CMOs because the market has really accepted that term.
Yeah. In its essence, what it is, is a part time, you know, marketing leader who would develop and maybe direct strategy, but not necessarily do the work. Like a lot of times they'll either bring in agency partners or they will work with who's there on staff, or maybe they'll help them build a marketing team of what I would call doers.
But essentially what a fractional CMO provides for a lot of organizations is marketing leadership, because there really isn't anyone who's directly responsible for that. Full function of marketing.
Is this, uh, an ideal scenario where you have a company and you hire a fractional CMO in place, but you don't have a proper marketing team in place because that happened to me. So that's why I would like to ask your thoughts on that.
Well, sure. As, as a fractional CMO, it's kind of dangerous because the bottom line is regardless of what you call yourself, they want you to do everything if you can. And I've seen a lot of, uh, well meaning fractional CMOs get kind of sucked into that. And next thing they know, they're really just selling their time and they're really just another consultant. No, they're not really providing that marketing leadership.
I mean, if you think about traditional structuring and organization, a CMO is not writing the emails for the campaign. Uh, but it's very easy to get sucked into that because you know, there's nobody to do it. Right. So. What we're trying to bring to the world, I think a little bit is that you need to have a system. You need to have scope so that you actually can walk in and say, look, here is what I'm going to do rather than what do you need me to do here is, here's the approach I'm going to do.
Here's how we're going to do. Uh, strategy. I've done it this time. I've done it that time. I can do it for you. You know, I think where people really get in a bad situation is when they just walk in and treat every engagement as something they have to figure out and customize, because it is very easy to get drawn in and be doing more than you should be doing. So we really structured as even phases because a lot of times there are foundational things that need to be fixed.
They don't have a team in place. So we're going to develop the system around, you know, what's going to be done. Uh, then we're going to help them find who's going to do it, or we'll partner with an agency that's going to do it. But you really. If you're truly going to be an effective fractional CMO and not go crazy, you really have to have that definition of here's what I do and here's what I don't do. And that, you know, that's really very, very clear.
And the way you do it is by saying, here is our framework that we know works.
So in that sense, to what extent should a fractional CMO involve themselves in a client's existing marketing team and processes, which is like the day to day work and so on?
Well, I think, and again, I don't know if you've worked in a large organization, but you imagine, you know, we're in an Traditional organization. They bring in a new CMO. Well, that person is going to want to meet with everybody is going to want to see like, what are what's the baseline? You know, what are we doing now? What's been working? What's not working? What's being measured? How do I get hold of data?
So they really even the fractional and that's where sometimes people make a mistake is is they come in and they Either feel some resistance or they feel like they don't have permission to say, I need to see the P and L, you know, we need to see what the marketing budget is.
I need, you know, just like you would in any organization as a. true CMO, um, you really have to exert that role and you can't really wait for them because a lot of, a lot of people that hire fractional CMOs, it's the first time they've done it. Um, and they don't really know how to work with you either.
And so you really need to go in and lead them and tell them what you need, um, and show them why it's important that you are embedded in the business in a way that allows you to advocate for the customer, that allows you to really advocate for marketing.
So the first step would be like define the scope of work and how much you're going to get involved and then get into the place. But as a first step in your model, time arrangement is one thing, because that's the hardest thing that I find as a fractional CMO is to manage my time. Yes, because marketing is sometimes 7 24. You can have an issue on. Monday night or Sunday night even, and then you need to pick up the phone. Um, what's the ideal time in a week that you see?
Of course it changes from project to project, but usually how many days a week or what's the amount of time, fraction of emotions spent?
So it depends greatly on your model, your business model, what you want to do, what you want your business to look like. Um, and if you go in the traditional model and and you are essentially saying I can give you a day a week or two hours a day or something. Well, you're eventually going to sell all your time. You're going to have four clients and you're going to be maxed out. Um, and maybe you'll be paid well for your time, but it's very difficult to grow a business that way.
And so what we try to teach people to do is that you have a very set scope and it doesn't really matter what time you are putting into it. It's the result. Here's what we are going to deliver. So, for instance, with us, every client that we bring in goes through something we call strategy first. They are hiring us to be their fractional CMO, but we are actually going to develop a marketing strategy. It's going to take the first 60 days, is going to be very defined.
Um, what we do is, is very defined. What we need from them is very defined. And so, We're not looking at it is, Oh, I'm going to give you, you know, 10 hours a week because what happens is that then they just think, okay, I've got this bank of 10 hours. How can I use them? Um, and so you get sucked into everything. But when we tell them, no, you don't get time from us. You get a result.
Um, and that result is going to be X, Y and Z and spelled out and they know exactly what they're paying for it. What it allows us to do is to actually teach others to do it. Many steps in the process to delegate a great deal of the work so that we can actually scale that model, call ourselves fractional CMOs, but still have 10, 12, 15 clients because we're using account managers and we're using project managers as part of the work as well.
Okay, so yeah, in that sense, in your model, a fractional CMO should have some people in the team. A hundred percent. Those people are hired by the company or
the fractional CMO itself? Well, again, you, there are many, many ways to do it. Um, the way we structured is they are actually on our team. Um, now if somebody came to us and said, Hey, I want you to build me a marketing department. Fine. I'll do it. You know, I'll tell you what roles need to be in and the type of person needs to be in those roles. And I'll actually even work to recruit those people for you. And then I'll manage it. Um, I mean, we've done, we've certainly done that as well.
And of course you haven't mentioned AI yet, but, but AI is going to end up on the org chart, you know, for a lot of people. So now kind of the company of the future is going to be, Maybe marketing managers who are actually managing several agents for very specific tasks.
What are some of the roles like in a medium sized company, for example, what are some of the additional roles that the fractional CMO gets? Next to him or herself, which is like, is there like a coordinator, a project manager? What are some common roles?
So in our, in our role, we have an account manager and a project manager. And it's kind of like a typical agency structure. You know, the fractional CMO is very strategic. The account manager has a lot of, uh, contact with the client and keeps things moving forward. And then the project manager quite often is managing the fact that we might be working with. A lot of strategic partners who are doing the work of, you know, maybe web design or creating content.
Um, so that's kind of how we structure it. And we found that what it does is by having those definition of roles, somebody feels like they get a team. Um, but also as the fractional CMO, I'm not constantly worried about some of the little tasks and tactics that need to be done all the time, because that's, that truly is what happens when you don't. Have that structure is you're going to get sucked back into everything because you're the only point of contact.
So at the very least, I would tell fractional CMOs that they need to hire, depending upon their client load, they need to hire one or two virtual assistants, if nothing else. Um, somebody that, that is really kind of keeping things moving because you're, as the fractional CMO. Figuring out how to do more with your existing clients, get new clients and do strategy work is really all you have time for.
Um, and so you want, you definitely want to make sure that you have, you're not worrying about sending out invoices. You're not worried about, um, you know, returning emails or setting up meetings and things like that because that stuff will suck as much of your valuable time as doing, you know, high payoff work will.
How about those people, for example, if the company has agencies already in place, the charging, like the agency work, websites, graphic design and everything, and then it's only the company just needs to fractional CMOS headspace on high level stuff, then would still fractional CMOS needs another one on their side, another person on their side for those.
Maybe not. I mean, if you're just offering an advisory type of service, but in my experience, what will happen is once you start offering an advisory service, it's going to become clear that nobody's managing all those other partners. Um, and nobody is helping them orchestrate on the strategy. And so you are going to get.
Particularly the more partners and employees and team members they already have involved in marketing, the more you're going to get sucked in because the bigger the number they have of those, the more chaos there is.
Yeah, I'm really happy that I find it on my own way, but it's always strategy first for me, because if someone asked me to jump into, you know, can we get your feedback about the social media? Can we get feedback about our activation plan and so on? I always say, hold on, we just start, we need to start with the strategy first and then we Go on on the fractional CMO model because it also helps me to understand if you're a good fit fit the company Those that's the bracket.
So i'm happy that uh, you're already Applying it to your network, too Um, what are some of the common pricing models for fractional CMOs?
Well, the most common I think that you see is a retainer Um, and that is, you know, it's whatever the numbers are, five, 10, 000. I've heard as high as 25, 000, um, to really be kind of that on call, you know, execute on the plan. Um, in some cases there are fractional CMOs then who are charging over and above that, if we're going to manage team members or if they're going to actually be responsible for getting, you know, execution done. Um, so. Uh, that to me is really the most common.
I'm sure there are people out there charging by the hour, but I just can't imagine, you know, that that's a very viable, uh, model.
And what would you recommend for new fractional CMOS? Because the common question is that how can I secure new clients? How can I get new clients for people? That's aren't in your network lists are sure. How can they secure new clients?
Well, you know, you think about, um, this role, it's not a 300 a month. Do some SEO tactics for me. I mean, it is if you're going to do this role, right? You're going to have a very deep relationship with the company that you work with. Um, and so hopefully they understand that. And that's why it's so important. To position yourself is we're going to do strategy and it is going to be expensive because it's worth it. That's going to help you attract the right type of client.
To me, I think that's really the, the biggest key. Um, this is a high trust type of thing. So it's not a matter of a whole bunch of outreach and automation and, you know, using AI bots and all the things that people are probably trying to sell to you right now to. to help you attract leads. Um, it really is more of a matter of going out and networking and starting to tell people what you do, tell people how it's different.
I tell people, especially people getting in fractional CMO, uh, world, you know, you really only need about a hundred contacts, uh, that you can continue to work because every, every person, you know, whether they are a prospect or not knows prospects. Um, and so, you know, really spending a lot of time with 50 to a hundred people and teaching them what you do. Delivering value, you know, is how you're going to build that trust as opposed to just trying to run ads and get meetings.
Uh, you know, you think about the value that you could bring and, you know, how deeply you're going to embed yourself in an organization. I mean, I can't imagine that somebody would hire a fractional CMO because they saw an ad.
In your network, did you get the clients and distribute to your network? How does this work?
Yeah. So, uh, we do not do that. Um, and, and largely because, um, everybody is free to do their own model, who they want to work with. Some people are very niched into certain industries. And so we also have an agency as well. So, um, a lot of people come to us because they want to hire us. Um, we certainly have made referrals. You know, there's somebody that's looking for, uh, Say somebody that specializes in e commerce or something.
And we don't, um, we make a lot of referrals, uh, but it's certainly not part of the network that you're going to generate leads, you know, from our network.
Which thing worked for you for your business to attract new clients? Is it referrals or is it your podcast?
Yeah, well, it's probably a form of everything, quite frankly, you know, cause we're doing a lot of things, but, but ultimately, especially in the beginning, I spent a lot of time and energy developing relationships with. Uh, other businesses that had my ideal clients, so software companies and people in the MarTech space. And I would do education. I would do webinars. I would speak on stages, you know, for their audiences.
Um, and so it was really a form of referral because they put me in front of, uh, their audience. They demonstrated that they trusted me already. And so that's really the number one way that I still, uh, advise, uh, folks that, you know, that are selling a high ticket, high trust. Service can really get in front of the right audiences, um, in, in the most effective way.
For me, it's a mixture of, uh, referral, uh, from my past, uh, teammates at the companies that I worked with. Uh, but it's also, I think repeating, uh, similar topics on LinkedIn on social. So it's just like you're saying on top of people said, I cannot say that I get like a lead from LinkedIn at all, but it's just like, I got leads from friends. that I have on LinkedIn. And usually those people are the people that I've worked with in the past.
And I personally couldn't still find out the exact way to attract new clients. To be honest, I know that some people use, uh, services like clutch, uh, where you list your company over there. Uh, but it's. A lot of, I think, referral based, that's my experience at least, uh, for seven years.
I agree. I mean, really what you hit on, quite frankly, is the first rule is consistency. You know, if you're, you're not going to get clients because you posted on LinkedIn one time. Uh, it's got to be something that you do every day. Spend an hour. I tell people all the time, book an hour every day to work on your own marketing. Uh, because what happens is you're going to get busy and then you're going to lose like two clients for whatever reason.
The same day, and now you're like, Oh, I have no prospects. I have no pipeline. So, you know, working on that every day, even if you feel like, Oh, I've got all the business I need, um, is an extremely important, um, activity.
What's the ideal duration or is there an ideal duration, let's say for a fractional CMO?
Yeah, I don't know if there is. I mean, I, I certainly. I certainly know fractional CMOs who kind of look at their engagements as, Hey, I'm going to come in six months, advise, fix, leave. Um, we have clients that we've had for five, six years. Um, and they get very attached, um, to what we're doing. We mature their marketing. So it's not just a matter of doing the same thing over and over again.
We help them bring new products, new services, new ways to think about their markets, maybe expanded geography. So there's always more to do, you know, with the right,
When you are working for as a fractional CMO or a consultant as a CMO or to a company, do you also help them outsource expertise? Like if they need services like websites, a graphic designer, so on. And does those services go through the management of your team?
Yeah. So that's how we've chosen to do it. There are a lot of models, but we have relationships with. pretty much all kinds of service providers and we will bring most of those in, but we are managing the relationship and we are responsible for the result. That happens to be our model. I know a lot of fractional CMOs that look at it as I'm going to make introductions to this person, this person, this person, they're going to work with you. Um, and I, you know, I've worked with them in the past.
I can help manage them, but you're going to pay them directly. You're going to contract with them directly. Either one works with, we've just, Chose our model and kind of stick with it.
So it feels like you are acting also as an agency but also as a team member almost.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I I think that's probably right. We actually even call it a fractional cmo agency That they're hiring we use that term specifically because we are capable Of providing all the execution as well
I find a unique value about that because you know I recognize that founders have some reaction to working with agencies because it feels like, you know, when you are an agency, it feels like you want to sell more and you want to create more services and so on when it feels like as a fraction of CMO, for me, it's, I'm acting as a part of the team, I'm a team member and I'll get services only if we are needing it, I'm not going to push for more services just for the sake of it.
And a lot of agencies. You know, they do three things. And so guess what? That's what they sell. So it's like, you know, rather than looking at it and saying, Oh, you know, we need to do more thought leader or more influencer or whatever it is for you. They're focused on, no, we do SEO and content and paid. Uh, and so, you know, that's what they bring to everybody. Everybody looks the same as opposed to, you know, saying, Hey, what, what's the right mix here?
Let's go out and find the components.
But I mean, do you, the things that you give as a service, like, do you say that these are the things that we can help you find services around or is it like an endless list of things?
It starts to feel like that, but you know, quite frankly, we work with a pretty narrow range, you know, small, midsize businesses, probably nobody over 30 million. Um, and so consequently, They need a lot of the same things, you know, at that point. And so, and we don't do things like we don't take on, you know, e commerce businesses and we don't work with retail or hyper local like restaurants or anything like that.
So we work with a lot of professional businesses, professional service businesses, a lot of home service businesses. And so what they need in terms of channels and things is are pretty similar.
The reason that you don't work with bigger brands over, let's say, 30 million, is it because they need their own teams or there's another reason to that?
It really has more to do with having some focus, narrow focus. I mean, they definitely, They have more structure, you have more meeting, they have more reporting, there's more things, you know. So our system is really focused on helping that company that's kind of still in foundation phase, maybe trying to level up a little bit. Um, that's where we found that we can make the greatest impact the fastest.
And it allows us to, from our own marketing standpoint, to say, here's who makes an ideal client for us. It's not everybody. So we've chosen that market because we, we see a lot of opportunity there, but we also are really good at serving that market.
So for people that are looking into for marketing people that are looking into a transmission into the fractional CMO model, do you have a few advices that you can give? I mean, where should they start? Is it like, you know, just start a company
or whatever? The first piece of advice. I would say is don't get hung up on what you call yourself. Um, I, I talked to a lot of folks that want to do this and they're like, well, it feels kind of funny calling myself a CMO because I've never been one. Um, and so don't get so hung up on that. The need for marketing leadership is vast. It's immense. So find companies that, that realize that, that realize they need strategy and call yourself whatever you want. Um, the fractional CMO.
Term has really gotten very popular. And so a lot of people have really leaned into that term, but don't let that stop you from, from going out and doing, you know, this type of practice. The other thing, you know, and it's somewhat self serving, but either develop your own system or acquire, you know, a system for doing strategy, because it takes a lot of time and experience to, to develop kind of a framework that works. And so that's.
The genesis of our business is that, you know, we've, we've been doing this for 20 years and we've got a framework that works and, and that has continued to evolve as technology and trends have continued to involve. So if you can invest in yourself, that's the fastest way to get going. Um, but if that's not an option, you know, from day one, you, you don't want to get into this trap of selling your time. So you want to be able to develop a productized approach to how you work with somebody.
Yeah. I wish I had, uh, your company when I was starting up because I recognize that like starting with strategy first or all the things that we have talked, I found my own way through failure and, you know, getting up, which made me lose a lot of time. So I think think that your agency is doing is, I think it's quite precious for people not to lose time to learn, you know, shorten the learning curve, let's say, uh, in my opinion.
Um, is there any other, uh, names that people use for fractional CMO? Because I see also like consulting CMO, uh, which sounds a little bit better
to me. I've seen people calling themselves marketing strategists. I've seen them call themselves, uh, CMO on demand. Um, part time CMO, part time marketing department. I've heard people use that term. Um, again, I always tell people. I mean, using a term that that you think the market understands, like fractional CMO makes sense. But the real thing you need to pinpoint is what problem are you solving for somebody? And because that's what you sell. I mean, or at least that's what people buy.
And so figure out the, a problem that needs to be solved through whatever it is that you offer and talk about your service, your product, your business that way.
How do you see the role of marketing evolving in the next few years? Because you are interviewing a lot of people for your podcast, and you are talking a lot about marketing, especially concerning the CMO role as well.
Yeah. So I think we're going to see, um, this great divide. Develop over the next few years. Uh, AI is driving a huge wedge in everything that people are doing and thinking, both businesses and marketers. Um, and so I think you're going to see a move towards adoption of AI like crazy, but I think that's going to come with a, a similar. Move back to more human, back to more, um, you know, personal driven things. I think you're going to see a return to PR.
I think you're going to see a return to direct mail. I think you're going to receive a return to some things that aren't going to necessarily be automated by, they might be enhanced by, but not necessarily automated by things like bots and agents and AI. And so the companies that I think. Really are going to be able to differentiate themselves as they'll harness AI, but they'll also find ways to, to really build trusted brands, uh, in the mind of the consumer.
Cause the one thing we all, I think as marketers quite often forget about when we get really caught up in all the technology and the changes I've been doing this 30 years. And the thing that's changed the most to me is how people choose companies, how people buy today. And, and that's only going to get.
You know, even more in their hands because you, you know, you think about all the research and all the information that somebody can have before they ever even, you know, talk to somebody, uh, you know, about engaging them. And I think that divide is going to get larger.
Do you see physical retail increasing up? Uh,
yeah, that's That's hard. I mean, I don't know that much about, uh, retail. I mean, you, there's a lot of driving forces, even real estate, um, is a huge driving force, you know, on that industry that, you know, the, who knows, um, what people are going to do. I mean, you, you start looking at the, you know, direct to consumer companies that, um, you know, I ordered something from Amazon the other day and it came in like three hours. Um, It's like, what, were they circling the building here?
I mean, um, so, so I mean, those, all those factors, you know, are, are only going to make it harder for retail for sure.
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm moving to one of the last questions, which is like, you have a podcast for so many years. And as I mentioned, you are the first podcast that I've started listening to in terms of marketing. Uh, I have a podcast, which is like three years and I'm still. Trying to figure out how to grow it. Uh, what's some key practices you found the most effective, let's say?
For growing the podcast.
Yeah, for growing a podcast. Yeah,
well, it when I started, it was not that competitive. I mean, our biggest challenge was getting somebody to figure out how to listen to a podcast because all the, you know, the apples and the spotifies, you know, didn't exist back then, but it's In a lot of ways, um, it's no different than, uh, than promoting pretty much any property, especially a media property, is it takes, you know, consistent work.
You know, you, you've been at three years, congratulations, because most people don't last three months, you know, during podcasting. Um, so that is a large part of it. Uh, self promotion of, you know, the podcast, getting it out there. Certainly your guests can be, uh, uh, promoters or help you promote. Um, as well, so making it as easy for people to share and promote is, is absolutely essential to today.
I think I will say this, and I don't know if you've experienced this, but I tell people all the time, yes, I have a pretty large following now or a listener, a subscriber base, but I would do my podcast even if. 10 people were listening because of the conversations I get to have with people I want to have conversations with. And so I look at it as a very, it has a dual purpose for me. I look at it as networking as much as I do as promotions.
Yeah. I mean, that, that's how I could sustain my podcast for three years because time to time when I look to numbers, I only look to the numbers when a guest asks for the numbers. I'm just, okay, let me check. And I'm just like, you know, checking it with like getting scared about what am I going to see because I don't check.
Well, the other thing, the other thing you have to remember too, is you're creating a lot of content. Um, and a lot of content is very useful. Certainly make sure that you're finding all the ways to repurpose and use that, that content that you're creating.
But I agree. I mean, like the connections that I built, uh, some of them are my team members now, uh, they are working with me. They are working for me or I'm working for them. Uh, so, or good friends, uh, even, uh, I'm, I'm with you on that. Uh, did you use any ads?
I have no, I have never done that. No, you've never
done that. Okay. Because some people say that, okay, there's a time that you should start doing that. So if it's like, I don't, I don't
think it's, yeah, I don't think it's bad. I see a lot of people doing cross promotion too. So like three or four advertisers will promote each other's shows. I mean, that's, that can be a way that can be effective, um, without, you know, having ad spend.
Uh, what does one business book you'd suggest? Uh, listeners to read.
Oh, that's so hard for me because, uh, I think that there's value in lots of, uh, of books that I've read. Um, recently I went back and read, I had Jay Papasan on my podcast, um, and he and Gary Keller wrote the book, uh, The One Thing, uh, it's been around a long time. Uh, it still sells. Hundreds of thousands of copies every year. So that's, that's the one that I'll say today.
Yeah, that's an amazing book. I read it, I think twice as well. Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Where do you live, by the way?
So I am in the mountains in the state of Colorado, west of Denver.
Oh, okay. So you should have a lot of snow.
We do have a fair amount of snow this time of year. It lasts till probably end of April.
Is there a favorite coffee place that you like to go over there? Because that's my last question to every guest.
So I'm in a pretty rural area, so I have to drive pretty far to get to one. But, uh, there are two coffee shops. One, um, is in a little town of, uh, Nederland, Colorado. Uh, it's called the General Store. And then there's a, uh, I live in a canyon and just the bottom of the canyon, there's a really small, uh, Coffee shop called Coal Creek Coffee.
I hope I can come over there and we can have a coffee at the second one, especially, which is like a smaller one. Thanks so much for joining me on this call. And I hope to meet you somewhere either in Colorado or in New York soon. Thank you so much.