I don't remember who said it, but it's like, uh, don't stop showing your ads until, not until you're sick of it, not until your customers are sick of it, but until your accountant is sick of it or something like that. If you are arriving at a point where people are sick of hearing about you, that means you've done an excellent job. Because even the ones who are complaining, that means you have created memories in their brain. You're real.
Uh, you exist, and that's the best the marketer could ask for.
Hi, this is the Marketing Meeting, and I'm your host, Itur Eraslan. Every two weeks, I meet with experts and we talk about topics related to brands, marketing, and businesses, and we sometimes add random lifestyle topics too. I hope you enjoy the show. Welcome to the Marketing Meeting. Today, my guest Next is Louis Grenier. He wrote the book, Stand the Fuck Out, and he also mentions himself as a recovering Frenchman who helps marketers to stand out. Va Cambris! Your audience is the marketers.
Is that correct?
Yes and no. So marketers as well as reluctant marketers. So people who do market even though they don't call themselves marketers. That tends to be the people who, who like what I try to say.
The, the, one of the things that I really enjoyed about the book is just that you are giving cases from some of the works that you do, like real case studies from clients, but also like these examples from mushrooms or star wars and so on. I really enjoyed that part of it. It's, it's very personal and it's, you know, it's just like, I like books when I'm able to connect with the author when I'm reading it, it's just like a conversation, uh, that you build.
Yes. So, um, My mind is since the morning, I'm so exhausted with so many things coming on, uh, in marketing and marketing often feels like we are saving the world, new tactics, new platforms, like the pressure to keep up and everything is last minute. You know what I mean? But I want to ask you, how much is this? change or just noise, or are we really saving the world?
No, we're not saving anything, right? Like when you think of the very definition of, of marketing or the impact it has in the world, it's you, you only are able to raise by tiny percentage, the chances that someone will. likely one day try your product, buy a product or pick it or whatever, right? So it's, it's, we are not that important, right? So like there's actual people doing interesting, valuable stuff for the world. I think of nurses and, you know, medical profession.
I'm not going to list all of them. So yeah, our profession is far behind, at least in terms of importance, and we shouldn't kid ourselves, which means then that there's an opportunity because it's not that big of a deal because it's. You know, it's not that serious. It means you need to have fun with it. If you don't have fun, if you don't do things that light you up day to day, if you don't find some ways to do that, then yes, it is going to be overwhelming.
It is going to be feeling like you're never standing still, that you don't have foundations to stand on. And it's a recipe for burning out, looking at your experience as well. Long experience in marketing, right? I've seen burnout a few times and stared it in the eyes. So to answer your question, though, No, marketing isn't changing. And everyone who's trying to make you believe that is full of shit. They are trying to gaslight you into thinking that yes, it is changing.
Um, that yes, you need to keep up. Uh, that raises your stress level, anxiety and whatever, which is when they. Catch you and sell you the stuff you don't really need, but you're doing it because you are under pressure. You are in a position of weakness. So marketing doesn't change, tactics do, tools do, but if you have strong foundations at the base, you're fine. Quick example. When ChatGPT Three appeared on when like the wave of AI started.
It's not like it didn't feel overwhelmed, but I felt like I could figure it out. I could learn about it. That's fine. It's not changing anything for me because I have my foundations. I know what is true of the world. I have my first principles. I know, you know, enough about psychology and the way people behave that I can use that to my advantage. And then within two weeks, I told myself I'm going to learn how to use AI to. extract insight from voice of customer data in Excel.
So it's faster and whatever. And I did, and it's part of my process now, but it hasn't changed fundamentally the way I see the world or whatever. So there is a big distinction to be made between new tactics and whatever on the true fundamental of the way people think, which is not going to change.
I wanted to ask this question because in your book, you are touch basing on some of the fundamental things. I mean, you, you don't share any tactics of okay, websites, traffic is the most important thing or whatever. It's just based on, uh, some of the foundations, but you know, your ideas, knowing your audience positioning differently. are exactly some of the things that people already share in their books and methods. What's different in your book compared to the others that you see?
So the big difference, the question I wanted to answer that I couldn't find the answer to genuinely, even though I interviewed a lot of marketers, read so many books, was how do you actually make a company, a product or service stand out? in a way that is repeatable, in a way that you can apply to any markets, any category, it doesn't matter, using first principles, right? And I just couldn't find the answer.
There is a lot of people that I'm influenced by, like I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. I, it's not just me thinking about this. It's me just thinking through the ideas, digesting them, and applying them and learning from them and whatever. So credit to all of those people I'm going to mention. A classic example would be April Dunford, right?
She's done absolutely amazing job in the last five years to make positioning as a discipline more widely known, more accessible, especially in tech and B2B tech. The framework is really cool when you have a product that is innovative, that is, there is something different from it and how to position it properly so people understand it, buy it, whatever.
The problem lies in when you go outside of B2B tech, when you go outside of companies that have a genuine differentiation in their product and try to do that with a marketing agency or freelancing business or a newsletter, you cannot do it. You cannot apply that framework, just to pick an example, because there is no inherent differentiation baked in. You just going to arrive at the same place as others, uh, story brand by Donald Miller, again, massive respect for what they've built.
I love the company. I love the framework and how easy it is and how it's made copywriting, maybe a messaging more popular, but it's the same thing. It's like, yeah, okay. If you've made your message clearer, but if. Other marketing agencies are having the same clear message. What the fuck do you do? So that came from that place of I genuinely wasn't satisfied with what I could find because it did not answer my question. And so I set myself.
The goal of trying to answer that question as best as possible. And the summary answer is how do you do all of this? You have to do it with a combination of insight for aging. So that means research of some sort to gather the right insight from the right people. We can talk about that. Unique positioning. How do you make sure that you position your product, service or brand in a way that feels like you have a distinct advantage over alternatives that you are competing against?
But sometimes that's not enough because you might have something that others have that you just can't uniquely position it if you're honest with yourself. So that means you move on to then the part three, which is distinctiveness, distinctive brand, which is more on the, the things that don't make a lot of sense, like a rooster on. The page of a book or stuff like that creates memories in people's brains so that they think of you first.
And then continuous reach is the last part, which is the acquisition and always being top of mind. So the answer is four parts. And that's why to answer your question, uh, that's how I feel. What I've tried to create with this framework is different because it helps anyone that wants to differentiate to do it. Not just B2B tech companies that have a lot of funding.
The thing that I will share, uh, based on my experience, because I have. More than 25 years of experience, and most of it is marketing. And I read tons of books and all the books that you mentioned, I've probably read all of them. But the things that I do as a method are almost the things that you mentioned at the book. And not everyone has this much of expertise, background in marketing. And anyone that is starting up even with 10 years at my 10 years, I would not come up with this methodology.
So it was really good to see that framework by someone else, but it's also, you know, made me question some of the, uh, for example, insights foraging. I use it as an insights step. And there were things that you were sharing, which haven't before come up to my mind. So it's just like, the process is almost the same that I follow with you. And I haven't found it at any other book as well, but also like some of the methods that you share to create insights, uh, is more than I could think of.
So that's why I I will ask some contrary questions and share my objections throughout the interview, but I mean, I'm, I really enjoyed reading your book a lot.
Well, thank you. It means a lot coming from you. Just to, just to pause here. It means a lot, what you said. 25 years of experience, as you said, you read a lot of books. And just briefly before you can roast me and ask questions, I don't mean to say this is a revolutionary new approach that no one has ever thought about. Again, as I said, I stand on the shoulders of giants. This is me curating the way I like to think into a framework coming from different sources.
But like, there is nothing crazy new here. There's no secrets anyway. So yeah, just wanted to make sure that people understand. I'm not trying to like make you believe that everything you've learned is false. It's just that this is my way of thinking.
I would like to start with the customer's insight. I have a question about that because you put it as the first step to stand out and you share some methods there. Uh, for me personally in strategy work, one on one customer interviews. Of course, I add like data, surveys and so on, but for strategy is especially the customer interviews. Usually on a strategy project or a positioning project, how many one on one customer interviews do you pick?
For me, it's around five, six, uh, in different segments. Uh, but I wanted to get your thoughts on that.
So like marketing, like anything, it depends if we're talking about B2B tech, complex purchase decisions, uh, evolving multiple stakeholders taking a few months. Yeah. Customer interviews would also be my go to. And I usually would stop once I start hearing the same thing from multiple people. So a number, as you say, five to six, yeah. At this stage, if you interview the right people, you start hearing the same things, but you know, customer interviews are not necessarily available for.
all the cases. In fact, I would almost argue it's a exception, not a rule. Um, a lot of people working in B2C selling orange juice and stuff like that. You can't really do custom interviews because you are spending more time trying to unravel a journey that, you know, might have taken them. half a second and you're spending an hour, it just doesn't work. So that's why in the book, I share way more than just customer interviews that is available to people.
I used to be very anal about research and very like structured customer interviews and surveys and whatever. But I've learned over time that you can actually, if you look at the right. Places and the right people, you can actually get a really good insight without doing any of that. You just need to know where you're looking at.
For a customer of an orange juice or like a food product, packaged food product, you don't think that interviewing. Like a few people, real diehard fans, or maybe people who, who just drink it doesn't matter.
So it's not that it doesn't matter, but for the sake of the, you know, the framework, the idea is to look at the past in order to, to know what to do in the future. So looking at the past, meaning you want to know, you want to look at actual evidence of behavior. You don't want to ask about what they're thinking. You don't want to ask about what they're doing. You, you want to just see what happens, um, or see what's happening if you can as well. Like it's the same thing cause you can record it.
But, um, so with an orange juice, right, let's take an example. Let's say you're on a new brand of orange juice and you want to understand how people buy the category. Um, the reason why customer interviews are tricky there is because 99. 9 percent of people buy orange juice. Like, it takes them what, five seconds to look at the aisle, they pick what they already know, and that's it. What is there to ask them, right?
Um, if you ask them straight away after, they'll tell you stuff like, yeah, I always buy it, whatever. That's the first problem. The fact that their buying decision is so short that if you do a customer interview, you basically fill up the blanks with. You're just overly engineering the decision. And the second part is that The reason why they've bought that orange juice compared to another one is probably not even conscious to them.
And you're, you're going to make them rationalize an irrational decision. Maybe it's because their father always bought that orange juice and they like it and that's it. They just buy it, they know it. But yeah, that's why I mentioned customer interviews are very good for rational or seemingly rational, complex decisions that have happened in the open with other people because it's been rationalized, it's been out there.
But for that type of stuff, I would much rather use my intuition, use the frameworks that I have, the first principles that we know about behavior and observe maybe how they buy in the supermarket, how many seconds that is take them observe where they look in the aisle, because you know, that's where you're going to compete against a look into the type of like the labels, the bottle shape, the design, whatever, instead of asking people directly.
Because yeah, I think you can really go really, really wrong. By asking people the questions when it comes to stupid decision, like silly little purchases.
Well, I mean, I get most of the best insights with those interviews, even for like a dried fruit, small pack, uh, item, because for example, the picture that you put to the package is just. The only, sometimes the only trigger or like zero sugar on top is sometimes the only trigger and, you know, without using it or so on, you may not come off it, that especially for campaign creation. Uh, I find if you want to look for insights to, for a campaign at, uh, one in one interviews. Help me a lot.
There's another thing that I'm going to ask there because in your book, you've been doing customer interviews. You specifically mentioned that there's no point speaking to people who haven't bought in three months or who are not, who are interested in that category, but not committed any resources to your brand
or to the category.
Yeah. For example, if someone hasn't bought both in three months, because it was specifically mentioned as three months, why would you not think about the drop offs? Because it might give you some really important insights about what's not working.
Yeah. So I'm not saying you can't do it. And as you said, you have 25 years experience. You know a lot of stuff that most people don't, and you will know what to listen to, what not to listen to. You know how to filter out the insights. What I've tried to give is a guideline that will always be relevant and always be okay to follow. And I didn't want to go into the gray areas because then it's another book. to just how to filter out the right insight.
I get a lot of insight from people who don't buy from me because I know what to ask, what not to ask. But my advice that works in any situation is to solely rely on what you learn from folks who've recently invested resources, money, time, reputation into your category, your industry, your product. Because that means you have evidence of past behavior.
You have recent enough, three months is like, because Memory decays, like after a while, if it wasn't a huge, complex decision, you can't even remember, I don't even remember what I had for breakfast, right? So it's like, you're going to make shit up. So it's just my guideline to try to have like almost every time good insight that you can actually leverage. I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you're doing. Far from it.
But it takes a special experience, I think, marketer, researcher to actually make sense of things that are outside of that particular group.
I would like to ask you a question about Uh, the title of the book and also your, your company as well, standing the fuck out. And is it the same as differentiation being different and standing out? Are they the same things or is there any differences?
So if we, if we go into the terms to define what differentiation is, differentiation essentially means you're doing something that others alternatives are not doing, right? And I, in the book, I talk about the two types of differentiation, right? You have meaningful differentiation, meaning that you're different. You're doing something differently by you're solving a struggle, ignore struggles, a problem, pain point, whatever that others are not solving very well or not at all.
In a way that others don't, right? So that's meaningful differentiation. And then you have the shitty, not meaningful differentiation, which is like claiming to be different for the sake of it. Just being different because you're different, which doesn't add any value to people, right? So differentiation, I would associate it with unique positioning.
in a fact that you position yourself as the only one that is able to solve those ignored struggles that alternatives are not, uh, serving very well. So that differentiation and then distinctiveness is not the same, right? Which is like the ability to stick in people's minds and basically associate yourself with specific triggers, specific brand assets, uh, so that you come first to mind, or at least you are remembered, you creating memories in their brain. And so those two things. Are different.
And I argue in the book that to stand the fuck out, you need both. Yeah.
Yeah. And I think it's just like, especially your approach is more towards distinctiveness because there's like a whole chapter about that, uh, stage.
Yeah. A few chapters. Yeah. Cause people overlook that.
Yeah, what do you think about, because some people, some brands stand out or differentiate by creating a new category. What do you think about creating a new category?
Let's get into that. Let's get into that. That's one of my favorite things to fucking rant about and complain about. Um, it's one of the things I hate the most. Uh, where do I start? So categories are not something that you, that you can aim, declare that you create. It reminds me of this office, you know, the office scene where Michael Scott says, um, I declare bankruptcy. right? And he's just thinking that by declaring bankruptcy, that's it. His problem is going to go away.
You can't just go and say, I declare a new category and this is it. Everyone will listen. Categories are not something that is created in a fucking lab. Categories are things that evolve through time because it's language. So that's the way people think. Um, we used to call cars, horseless carriages, because they used to be horses and then it's horseless carriages. And then it was carriage and then car, like you don't get to create category.
As we said, from the very start, marketing is just a. It's, it's meaningless. It doesn't really, we're not changing the world. And therefore don't think of yourself as God. You're not God. You can't create something out of thin air. You need to lean on what exists. That's the first argument.
The second argument is most people who say they've created a category only niching down, sorry, I can see you're laughing because I'm getting animated down, niching down there, basically leaning on a category that exists and just. Specializing in a subgroup of that. So there's subcategory or sub subcategory or sub sub subcategory that's not creating a new category. You're just doing what we're describing at to be unique positioning.
You're just finding, you know, struggles that others are not doing well, and so you're doing that by a subcategory. So it just boils my blood because it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. And. One last argument. If you look at examples that everyone mentions like drift and their conversational fucking marketing, I think it was, they've actually stopped doing it because it wasn't working.
They pulled millions, hundreds of millions into that to try to create that category and it never took off ever. So it's much easier to just let go of that. Ego. I think of yourself as someone who's channeling what is there and trying to sway people slightly into the other direction, leaning on what exists and stop trying to be fucking God.
How about companies that are declaring that they created a new category, let's say they are not declaring, but others Uber, Apple. you know, Tesla and so on. How about that? Or are they already under a certain category?
Yeah, they always are. Like, you always have to lean on something that exists in order to be understood by people. So there's always like electric cars, Tesla, that's not a new category. They didn't invent it. Uh, you mentioned, I mean,
Airbnb, something like that.
Right. So sometimes it's a mixture of two categories that go together, like sitcom, like situational comedy, and you have a few like that. So in retrospect, it happens a lot. So you have a company that is solving a problem or doing something that others haven't done in a specific way. And after a while, it becomes something from the work they're doing to evangelize it, to let people know about it. But they don't declare it from the start. It's after the fact, they're like, Oh, fuck.
We've, we've actually beat something new here and others are following us. They created the category. Yeah, but they didn't start with the end. They started from the right place, which is obsessing over solving, ignore struggles that alternatives are not doing well. And at the end, they realized that actually the best way to describe it might be something more specific than just Taxi service, right?
So that's kind of my, my point is like, it's very egocentric to declare we're creating a new category. You're starting with the end.
No, no, I'm totally with you. But because at the end of the day, Airbnb, before Airbnb, people were renting their houses. through some, you know, couch surf or something like that. I mean, people needed that, but they created a new category for some people, but it's just like they tapped into the ignore struggles and then they found a new way of servicing people, which may not necessarily mean creating a category.
They leaned on a behavior that already existed. Yeah. It's always like that. You will always find a flow that exists and it's just, okay, people are renting spaces. They need space. They're renting like Ontario houses through specialized websites or they're going to a hotel or whatever. There is a behavior there, you know?
I have a question, uh, which was not on the floor, but, um, for ignore struggles or, you know, problems to be solved, we, I'm also very obsessed to find those struggles and problems to be solved. But I have. I always face a difficulty when it's a luxury brand and it's hard to, I try to combine it with the identity problems or the, you know, meaning that it brings me or like mental things or so on. But with luxury brands, it's hard to find those ignored struggles.
It's not always like practical that people buy some things.
It's almost never is, right? It's not rational. So, like, I talk about rational versus irrational struggles, and I argue that irrational struggles are usually the ones you could lean to, to really find ignored ones so that, you know, you can really differentiate with the unique positioning. So I'm just going to give a list of the ones that I tend to use. So self love, avoiding feeling like a loser. So love and company, avoiding loneliness.
Fitting in, craving approval, purpose, seeking meaning, unity, nostalgia, control freaks, controlling and organizing chaos, fewer decisions, avoiding overwhelming choices, entertainment, seeking fun, uh, seeking recognition and reducing risk, right? So for luxury brands, I guess we could take a real example if you want to, like you don't have to name the brand or whatever, but we could go through this exercise and see how, you know, from that lens, we could look into it.
Just like, for example, a watch, a very expensive watch. What's the struggle that I have? I mean, I can buy a 1, 000 watch.
Yeah, you can buy a Casio that gives you the time, right? So clearly they're not buying it for the time.
Yeah, but for that one, there is like some kind of authenticity of that watch that you use. I mean, it's not about the value or that it shows you. probably you like it because it's also unique.
Yeah. So, so let's start with an example. Why do people buy expensive watches? Why do like, uh, I think Mark Zuckerberg was seen with, with one of those designer watch that are worth multimillion. Why do they wear that instead of that shitty Casio one, right?
Like Audemars Piguet or so on, like which you buy at 50, 000 minimum. And then you wait for a year.
So it's a basic status signal, right? So it will be to fit in potentially with others in our group. So if you fit in, if you hang out with millionaires who all have watches like that, then you want to fit in. That's just based in your DNA. That's how people think, right? So and then self love, avoiding feeling like a loser, like, you know, you give yourself this kind of stuff and it makes you feel better about yourself. That's just two. The interesting thing here is to go deep into.
That's what I try to argue in the book is to be specific. So if we think about it, like in, in wider term like that, it's quite vague. It's difficult to go deep. And I like to always go like at least a level deeper or two level deeper. So one trick or one thing that I found super helpful is called a job map, which is based on like the job to bid on methodology that argues that there's essentially eight stages that people go through from.
It could be orange juice, could be an expensive watch, it's always the same. So it's like defining, locating, preparing, confirming, executing, monitoring, modifying, and concluding. So, the buy the watch, buying the watch is the thing, then I would go one level deeper. Okay, so what is the job? Well, why are they buying the watch? Like, what is the core reason? It's not to tell the time. So it's probably to let's say, I don't know, feel better about themselves or fitting or something like that.
So then I would go deep. Okay. So defining when do they set goals about it? When do they start figuring out how to feel better about themselves? When is that happening, right? Is that years before? Is that from a conversation they've had? Is it from Instagram? Is it from, uh, just where in the meeting they noticed? the watch of someone else and they are like, aha, that's cool. And then they forgot about it. And then a year after they think about it again, right? Locating, collect what's needed.
So in that sense, it would be like, is it a watch I'm going to buy to make myself feel better? Is it whatever, right? So anyway, I'm not going to do all the stage like that, but just to share the way I like to think about it, and maybe you have. probably different way, but it's, I like to go really deeper into the full flow to find the needs, the struggles that are not met and not just look into the, you know, self esteem and purpose and stuff like that. Cause it's not really actionable.
And also like when we say struggle or jobs to be done, it feels sometimes irrational to us. And then don't think that it's. Irrational for them. I mean, because mommy say it's an irrational needs, then we are just, you know, lowering the customer and we are just, it's just like, it's rational for us. You know? I mean, like, it's just like. That approach helps me.
Uh, my next question is about continuous reach because it's one of the last things in the book, because you say that the more we see something and the more we like it, it's based on science and so on, but then when there's too much of exposure, seeing the same thing over and over again, doesn't people get annoyed about that? Some people annoyed about that.
I don't remember who said it, but it's like, um, don't stop showing your ads until not until you're sick of it. Not until your customers are sick of it. But until your accountant is sick of it or something like that. So honestly, I think this is not a problem for most companies. If you're arriving at a point where people are sick of hearing about you, that means you've done a tremendous job. You've done an excellent job. You should be happy and proud of yourself.
Because even the ones who are complaining, that means you have created memories in their brain. You're real. You exist. And that's the best the marketer could ask for.
So you just with the notion of getting them annoyed or bored, you would still continue pushing it.
Honestly, this is just, I mean, I, you might have a different experience on this, but from my experience, this never happens. I mean, unless you think about very tactical stuff like Facebook ads, where you have a limited pool of people you can show your ad to, and then the frequency. You know, reach 10, 15, 20, 20 times, 25, whatever. But like, that's not real life. I'm talking about in general, like to general public and whatnot.
Again, I'm asking you like this, you have more experience than I do. Uh, probably in this, like, have you ever encountered? A brand, a product, a service that was just too much and people are sick of it to the point of having an impact on your business.
Two years ago, uh, I was hoping to get a black boot, uh, because you know, in New York, sometimes the winters get really bad and you know, I usually wear black and white and gray and so on. So. After the mistake of doing a research and clicking one brand, which I will not give the name, uh, the one brand's ad actually by mistake, that black boot followed me until the other winter. And I had to start using a pop up blocker or something like that.
You know, I'm just like, I just don't want to see it. And then sometimes I pass through their store now and I'm just like, I just. Change my path and so on. But yeah, it doesn't happen too much. They were like, it was not a clever performance marketing. If you ask me, um, I will ask a few wrap up questions and it's not about the book or marketing, but as a company owner yourself as a marketer also, what's the best way that you get new clients?
Is it through referral or is the book already providing that?
I've stopped actually working with clients 101. Um, I'm essentially rebuilding the business from scratch with the book being the first layer. Uh, in fact, the first layer is the methodology shared in the book. So the Standard Forgot methodology, those four stages we went through. That's kind of the IP, right? So that's the single IP of the business. And then the layer, like an onion, right? The layer after is the book. So that's the first package.
And what I like to think about is how do I slice and dice this IP? in different ways so that I can reach different people at different stages in ways that will solve some of their problems right now. So the book is one, is one way to do that, uh, to reach new people as well. Um, but then we are doing certification programs right now. We're just starting that. So training other professional marketers on the methods so that they can use that with their clients and also clarify their positioning.
So that's another way to slice and dice the same methodology. So that's how I think about it. It's like slicing and dicing the same IP, instead of trying to create different IPs, too many different things. I'm just like really keeping it super lean. Uh, but to answer your question, so how do I get clients in general? Because the clients would now come from the book or they could also go directly to certification, also go directly to other stuff.
It's LinkedIn, people signing up to the newsletter, word of mouth, like people talking about it to each other. Uh, I'm lucky enough to have a few sources like that. that bring more people in because I don't do one to one anymore. I don't really have that kind of referral, uh, for stuff. And then just to finish, another way we slice and dice that IP is through roasts.
So we've started to do roasts, which is essentially me taking a brand or product or service and then passing it through the methodology and understanding how well do they do for each stage. And it's a product because we actually charge for that. Basically as a sponsorship thing. So I roast their stuff, but in exchange, we share their offer. We talk about them on LinkedIn, email or whatever. So that's yet another way for us to slice the same IP.
Um, and we got our first sponsors through just reaching out one on one outreach to people I know. So it didn't come from inbound. It was just reaching out. So that's another way to get, uh, to people. So just to summarize what I think is helpful, because I made that mistake before.
To keep the business extremely simple is to just find, yeah, different ways to, to sell that IP in ways that brands would pay for, but also, I don't know, people who are unemployed would pay for like the book because it's cheap enough, you know, all the way to. Bigger brands might need a workshop, a personalized workshop on the methodology. That's how I think about it nowadays.
How about the podcast?
Right. So let's talk about the podcast. So by the podcast, we mean everyone hates marketers, right? So I started that eight years ago at the time when there was very few marketing podcasts. They were good and very few that were no bullshit. In fact, it was the first one to have this very kind of. aggressive even though he wasn't that aggressive angle about like, let's get to the point, let's fucking get insight from the guests. Let's challenge them or whatever.
Nowadays, there's so many it's unreal. So two years ago, a year ago, I felt I've started to outgrow the podcast because as a host, I was interviewing marketers and. People from different industries and talking about topics like SEO and content marketing and positioning and whatnot. And so it became clear that when you look at the simplicity of the business model we're trying to build and everyone hates marketers, it started to be very different.
Um, standoff account has taken over naturally organically. And so, yeah, everyone hates marketers for this reason will, uh, will remain my. The first project that helped me to grow and help develop my business, but I'm not going to revive it. We might do a podcast in the future or something like that. But again, it's going to be around the same IP.
Last question is about if I wanted to write a book now, what's the first thing that I should do? I know that there are so many steps, but either to find a publisher or take your paths that like you did for with Lulu, let's say. Which is like your second path, I know.
Yeah, yeah. So, so again, like it depends on exactly what you want to do. If it's pure awareness play and you want to position yourself as a thought leader, then going through a traditional publisher really helps because it, they have a name and they, they can really help you to put you in front of, of big names. If you want the creative freedom to.
Take some risk and write a book that you really want to write for yourself first, then yeah, going through a hybrid publisher like I did where they help you with everything from editing to the cover, but you keep the rights is what I would think about. So yeah, thinking about that is probably the first thing, but I would share, I will share with you the most valuable step that I took writing that book. And I'm so glad I did probably the best thing I've ever done in my business, to be honest, is.
To get beta readers to read through my manuscripts. So I did three rounds where I selected folks who fit my ideal reader profile. I selected 20 volunteers in exchange for getting updates about the book and signed copy of the book and other little goodies. So 20, 25 at each stage. So 70, 75 people total, and I use the software called help this book, help this book. com. It's essentially Google Doc, but it's a bit more structured and you can ask specific feedback.
And that was by far the best thing I've ever done. Yes. You need to know what. To look for and what to avoid, like you, you don't want to listen to every single one of the feedback, uh, like to the point you were making at the start of this conversation, right? Where you need to know how to process the feedback. You can't just get everyone and change your, your vision based on feedback. For example, you mentioned Star Wars, right?
You know, the quotation, well, someone, a couple of people said, actually, I didn't get this. You should remove it. Of course not, I didn't remove it, right? Because that's the point. So, yeah, beta readers were by far the most valuable thing. In total, I got more than 3, 000 comments for the three versions of the manuscript. But I was so happy. You wouldn't believe the happiness I felt.
Like, I was like, what a gift, what a gift this is to be able to know before you even release the book that it's actually a good book, right? And that's why I feel so confident about it. Not because I'm egocentric, and I think I'm God. No, not at all. It's because I have evidence. People actually played a game and said, like, I don't understand this. I like it. I don't like that. Whatever. That book is so different from the one I wrote last year.
And I'm so proud of it for this reason, because it's not just my brain.
Is there any one business book that you would suggest to the readers other than your book?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for first of all, for, for talking about it, for reading it, for, for roasting it. I appreciate it. I really do. How Brands Grow by the Herrenberg Bass Institute of Marketing Science based in Australia, uh, they are doing phenomenal job. How Brands Grow and How Brands Grow Part Two are must read for any people doing marketing. Like just must read from start to finish. It's not as nice to read as mine. It's not as funny. There's no mushroom. There's no analogies.
It's very dry and scientific, but that's what you want. There's a few truths about marketing. Uh, first principles about marketing that you must know, and they are pretty much all in this book.
I agree. And where you live, I think you live in Dublin, right?
Yes.
What's your favorite coffee place? Because that's the last question that I ask to every guest.
Okay. It's going to be a stupid. answer or maybe not what you expect. My favorite coffee place is actually, I have a little garden office, right? This way it looks like a shed. It's not that much, it's not a shed. It's insulated. It's actually a bit more comfortable than a garden shed, but it's not big. So if I walk, if I cross my garden, which will take me five seconds and go to my kitchen, there's a coffee machine there.
Um, that's the best thing, you know, the freedom to be able to work from, from here to be next to my family. That's the best tasting coffee, you know?
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And I'm sure, uh, your daughter, right? Uh, which, who is around three or four now?
Yeah, yeah, three, yeah.
Uh, yeah, would be very happy about that. Thank you so much, Luis.
Well, thank you very much. Um, thank you for reading the book.