Fixing the UFL

Hey guys, welome to the markcast. Read here, well, here we go, here we are. We are going to fix the UFL today, give them a blueprint for success. Kind of tongue in cheek, but I think this is gonna be good. Kind of a think tank here today, kind of an off the wall episode. Mid season. We had Mike Mitchell last week checking in with the UFL median expectations, what's going on, a lot of work and time went into this, finding the right individual to come

on, producing the segment, questions and everything else. So I hope you guys enjoy you know, please like and subscribe. Give us up to thirty five hundred subscribers. Remember two free tickets to the UFL Championship game. You can even sit with the Professor Andrew Murray if you get us over that. We're like less than forty away. Get us there. Hopefully this episode will

incentivize you a little bit today. I think forty percent of people that watch Andy and Ized Monday live streams are not subscribed to the channel, and those actually do really well. So get on board if you're not already support the channel and giving the thumbs up a good great episode today Todd, MRCO coming on former Los Angeles Avengers President and COO of the Arena Football League, really

deep dive, wide ranging, almost an hour long interview. What does Todd think of kind of the business direction of the UFL TV ratings versus attendance and how they should we incentivize the local fan bases to come out, giving away tickets for free, slashing tickets, kind of all those strategies. Todd has spent decades kind of in the sports media landscape through ad sales and you know, ticketing and everything else, through Fox Sports, he was with the Outdoor

Channel. He has his own consulting firm now, So even outside of kind of the Arena football landscape, Todd is a wealth of knowledge. Or really appreciate him. Like I said, taking almost an hour to sit down today kind of deep diving all of this stuff and then the pre production calls that we had and everything else. Max and you know, you get a random email from a podcaster in cl Hey can you come on to talk to UFL. So I think Todd went great. I was great. I really hope

you guys enjoy it. Hopefully it will be some fruitful, you know, tangible things. The UFL can do. I know we get a lot of like, well, you guys are too negative, So here we go. Hopefully you guys enjoy that. And then at Football Talk today we're going to be previewing the weekends games with Kevin Coogler, a Fox Sports, a longtime friend of the program. We're trying to get Brock Cward on and then I was working all week and he was working and we just couldn't coordinate schedule.

So hopefully we'll get Brock Heward on again here soon once our schedules allow it. Last note for me, I know there's a ton of CFL stuff right now. I know there's the Chack Kelly's of it all. I'm recording this late on Thursday, and the pinball press conference and Dave Naylor doing all that reporting and the Elks losing money and all that stuff. Literally between Andy and I's live stream on Tuesday and right now, I have had zero time to

podcast, So no CFL content this week. The best I could do was Todd earlier in the week and then Kevin Coogler. So hope you guys enjoy. Hope that's enough alternative football content, and then we'll get on the CFL train next week again should have a much easier schedule. So like and subscribe. We'll see at the end vex, Well, this is exciting today.

This is a little off the wall here. You know, we have our you know, var Hans of the world, Dave Naylors, everyone else, and this is a little think tank today. We get a lot of negativity on here. Sometimes you guys are too critical about the UFL everything else.

So I'm bringing in today to Todd murco here and just even looking from his LinkedIn, former president and COO of the Los Angeles Avengers back in the Arena Football League, but even just here, confident strategists with contagious passion perspective on how to engage and monetize generational audiences, consumer sports fans in traditional and emerging media. Todd's got a lot of experience with all of this stuff. Like I said, leading through your LinkedIn, Todd, why don't you just how

are you doing and maybe give us a little bit of the background. What's your elevator pitch about who you are? I'm doing well, doing well. I've got beautiful weather down here in Scottsdale, Arizona. Looks like you've got it up there in Washington, so cool. I just got done with the spring semester at Arizona State the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism, where I'm been given the privilege to touch young minds and kind of give them the fresh approach

they should be taken moving forward in media and content and sports. I actually teach to the journalism students business s class because they really don't get a business foundation. So my whole thing is I ask them to remember one thing when they leave, and that is follow the money. Follow the money, follow the money. Right. So aside from that, I have a consulting business where late I've been spending a lot of time talking to local sports teams that

have been going through this media local media change. With the ballet sports Diamond sports situation, We're seeing radical changes occur. You know, time will tell if the formulas that are being put in place. Phoenix is one of those markets, if that formula is gonna work. But I've been spending time in that in that area as well. And on top of that, I'm starting a new nonprofit organization focused around youth sports and educating the constituents inside that space.

But we'll save that for another podcast. Well, this is great. I do appreciate this. You know, Todd getting a random email for me on a Friday, Hey, do you want to come on and talk about you know, Todd is probably the you know, Arina Football League back in the early two thousands and then just a whole wealth of career if you have ticket sales and marketing and the sports and all that. So we wanted to get Todd stots today on kind of everything UFL. How do we engage the

local markets moving forward? Talking new attendance versus TV ratings and kind of all of that stuff. Here Todd general, just here existing in the world where we have like e merged Spring Football League here own you colon by Fox and Red Burding everything else. Did you imagine being at this spot here coming from

kind of your past history with all of this. Yeah, you know, I think it's something that we're gonna We're going to continue to see whether or not somebody can strike gold in the off season, if you will, of

traditional football. And the reason being is there's just too much money in it, right, you know, I think success for the UFL or anybody who really tries outside of the NFL is can you pick up a ratings point from football fans, can you layer that with betters that are interested in throwing down some money right win or lose? And then can you pull in the sponsors

on top of it. So it's a simplified vision of it. But I think we're going to continue to see the the you know, the entities come out and try to you don't get a piece of that gold in the in the traditional off season, if you will. So coming off today, we're recording this Tuesday earlier this week. I appreciate Tom making time with my work

schedule. Coming off, we have Mike Mitchell's TV ratings for this week, you know, about a million we of course I have the It was Sunday's average was one point two million, forty one percent up over last year. So we're seeing, you know, I would say, above average what we maybe are expecting for TV ratings in that the attendance legging a little bit.

I think we have on average over the weekend five thousand Memphis, seven thousand, Michigan, thirty two thousand and Saint Louis, and then fourteen thousand in DC. We have a debate on here a lot Todd about like, well, this league is an attendance driven ride. It's all based on the TV revenue and it's just the fractions of a point any money made at the gate. We talked offline kind of setting up about this, just you know, wanting to feel like you're a part of it with the audience. We're trying

to build towards local ownership. Where do you base between the kind of the TV revenue and then the butts and the sea. Well, first, I had not seen the ratings yet for the past weekend. You know, doing a million plus is a decent number. You know a lot of people would look at that and think that's not great. It's not a bad number. You know, college football, the non hyped games. You know, we may see under a one for a lot of the games. We'll see over

ones and we'll see you know, large numbers. Dan Sanders was my gosh, he was doing tens and eleven this past year. But you know, a million viewers is not it's not bad. It's definitely sustainable to the business model, if you will to what you know Fox is trying to pull off with the Rock is trying to pull off. Now on the other side of this, as you bring up attendance. Look, it's a valuable piece of the business model, and putting butts in the seats is obviously a critical part.

You know, it comes with a double edged sword because you know, we always tried. I always tried on both sides. Whether I was on the media side, I always try to help our team partners by not showing empty seats. When I was on the team side, I always tried to make sure, working with production, that we were clearly not showing empty seats

and trying to fill those seats. And you know, the fan at home wants to see that there is a stadium interested in, fully interested and engaged with that game, right you know, partly is that energy comes through to the viewer at home. But if there's no interest in the stadium inside of the actual stadium or the arena, it does convey and you know, sports fans want to be a part of something. They want to watch something that

is you know, can't miss TV. And if there are people actually not going to the game, psychologically, it just happens to, you know, change how we approach what we're viewing. And look, we can look at NFL games the last couple of years, their numbers haven't trended like they would want them to. There have been stadiums across the country that have had empty seats. Now, if you see those games, one thing I can promise you is whether it's CBS or Fox or NBC or whatever partner, they're doing

their darness to show all the full seats and not those empty seats. So I think it's a double edged sword. But you know, on one end, I would say the UFL, you know, has a positive outlook, but the numbers that they're they're generating ratings wives, but locally, they obviously have more work to do. Yeah, And so we'll get into some of those ideas today because this is kind of going to be a I think I'm branding this a step by step blueprint here the fixing, Well, we'll fix

the UFL today. I don't worry about no credit. But because what strikes me is, you know, obviously, right now this exists as a TV product for Fox, right, and that's why they went into this, and

we partner and all that stuff. But at some point, the goal, whether it's five years from now or seven years from now or ten years, like we want to sell these franchises off and if I'm averaging fifty six hundred people in Memphis, like you know, I mean you worked with this with the arena leagues, like you know, I know you had said you built you know, four thousand up to sixteen thousand general attendance back for the LA

Avengers. Like what interest is there in that in a property maybe in Memphis or Michigan that's pulling in sub eight thousand in a game like that? Or is that or is that bible? Well, look again, another double edged sword. You know, when you if they're going to sell those franchises off and move away from a single entity situation, you know they're really going to have to try to create revenues that are coming in from the league side.

That's where success is truly defined. It's not defined necessarily by what's going on on the local level and what you can create. If you can't create a strong media relationship with somebody that's generating revenue for you, and you can't generate consistent sponsorship revenue, and then we can layer in merchandise and all the other ancillary stuff. Betting certainly brings a whole new dynamic to the leagues these days.

But if you can't generate those revenues from the leagues, then being sustainable as a franchise entity in a market makes it very very difficult. And look, that was the biggest problem in the Arena Football League for many years and we're seeing it again now. And I don't think the current owners had any idea what they were getting themselves into. If I'm looking at this thing from thirty thousand feet, I think they thought they were going to be sustainable.

They certainly sold that story to the franchise owners, and the franchise owners who pulled out were expecting to get revenue from the league and that didn't happen. And obviously, you know, it's circumstantial here having you on you we're having the downfall in the AML, and uh, you know I've been trying to

get some coverage of that my work schedule and everything. But yeah, I mean obviously, and I'm sure you're shaking your head at seeing some of that stuff, and you know that might be a conversation for another time as well. We'll see here in terms of we got questions here. You know, Max put together some of this and really helped him kind of help produce this

segment here in terms of attendance and TV ratings issues. Is that is that a market issue in terms of like we've chosen the wrong markets, or is that that we are not promoting well enough in the markets. It's both. So, you know, when you look at the major floors and you look at this from you know, what they are doing, we see franchise growth. It's it's not as much anymore in the major force, but we do see franchise growth. Where it occurs is in the largest markets because what the

league. In fact, let's go look that was a great example going on right now college football. Let's look at realignment and the college space because the Big ten has done something which is so smart, and everybody is. Everybody else is trying to follow suit to fill in the holes the same way. But the Big Ten went through realignment and that snag of Los Angeles with SC and UCLA that caught everybody off guard. They got the number two market in

the United States. So by bringing the number two market into the United States with their with their primary schools, right, they drew this interest in so from a national perspective, they have a you know what what I think we'll see is an increase in ratings for the Big ten this coming year because they added Los Angeles, They've got New York, They've got Chicago, they've got Detroit. I mean, they've got so many large and they added San Francisco.

They've got so many large markets. Actually, no, they didn't add San Francisco. They added Washington in your area. They added Seattle, right, right, Yeah, and so another large market. So when you full this and you look at from the standpoint of the UFL one, what do you need to do to create national ratings? But then what do you have to do to create local ratings? Well, the local ratings help support the

national numbers, right. So what I can guarantee you almost without failure, is if the New York Jets at a five and ten clip on the season, are playing the Jacksonville Jaguars, right, who are ten and five, I can almost guarantee you that that game is going to rate significantly higher amongst most games around the country because of why the number one market in the country in New York, right, and the TV sets that it brings to the

equation. So, if you have the foundation of those local teams inside of large television household markets, that helps lift all boats and arising tide, right,

that helps to create those national numbers. Now, what the UFL doesn't do, which our major fours do do are aside from the NFL, and I know this is probably not where the mark cast goes in all over this, but there's local ratings because of the quantity of games that the NBA and NHL and Major League Baseball has and the Arena Football League was in this model as well, we had local broadcasted games. So you had to be strong,

you had to be sustainable in your local markets. And if we're looking at it from a ratings perspective, you know, for the most part, the NHL typically ranks really really low overall locally, depending upon you know, markets that you go to. Obviously Detroit, Chicago, New York. I mean, those those hockey hot markets rate much higher, but otherwise they're they're

rating lower. And so the goal is, how can you put together the strongest markets that are going to track the strongest audiences fans that are going to tune into those games, and you really want to try to do it.

The foundation of that is really trying to do that with the larger market teams well and it's we've talked about this because obviously come up here the last couple of weeks on the show and just in no world would you ever have these eight markets selected for a league to kind of start out, even though this is a couple put together here, you know, three in Texas, Michigan, Memphis. Right, we don't have La we don't have San Diego, we don't have you know, New York or any of that. So how

do you where you don't have that? A first, Howard surprised for you that we don't have either coast represented, either of the top two media markets. But also like then, how do you hope to recover from that? Because it feels like, you know, Birmingham is not the hot I mean, it might be the hot met of the football world, but it's not the hot bed of like the TV you know, viewing population. Yeah, and I you know, I not knowing exactly what their strategy is on that.

I mean I think part of this is, you know, taking the old teams, right, they brought into the equation, which I always thought that was a bit of a head scratcher, to be honest with you. I mean, I don't know what the true relevancy was of that, especially when we're talking about Birmingham. I don't I don't know if that formula works, but you know they're clearly trying to do it where football is where it is hot beds Texas, you know. But again, I mean, look

the numbers of what we're seeing. What would be really interesting in what you put up on the screen is what do those numbers look like from a regional perspective? Right? Are we drawing in those audiences from those areas? Now you asked about the West Coast. You know, for years we had no teams in LA. Right, it was partly well do we really need teams

in LA? They were rating good, they weren't rating great, but they were rating good, and fans there could watch games that you know, we're all over the place, right, they didn't have to necessarily watch the Rams or the Chargers. And there was always this stigma for a long time. In fact, we dealt with it with the Avengers. Is this truly a football market? And I would argue and say, yeah, it is a

football market because we were able to stimulate those fans. Albeit it was you know, we needed sixteen thousand or you know more, if we'd started to add ratings on but but yeah, we were able to stimulate it in a non non NFL time period. We didn't have the NFL for I don't know how many years during that time period. But I'm not surprised that they haven't brought LA into the mix. San Diego's smaller market, so you know, again I don't know, but we could also throw the argument on San Diego

they don't have the Chargers. Are they thirsting for football? Right? Is there something? So all these things end up being kind of trial and error situations to try to figure out. And I, you know, I think they have the luxury of doing that if they wanted to do that, because that's my thing is you know, I obviously right now you're you're seeing you know, no A, no LA, no, no New York because of

you know, cost and travel and venue availability. But my question is is it worth those added is it worth those added headaches to be in one of those markets just from that, like you said, getting the local viewership there and then also national I mean we saw Mike Mitchell will bang his head against the wall. But you know, the highest rated XFL and the highest rates spring football game and that. However, long was the New York Guardians game

playing that first XFL weekend. It wasn't even the kickoff, it was just because that was one of the media markets involved. Yeah, I I don't know, it's it's tough. I think, you know, inside of those markets, to kind of get the football fan in a frenzy and you know, week after week after week, I think is very difficult. There's a lot of especially in the summertime, right, I mean spring and summer,

there's a lot of options. There's a lot of options for the sports fan, and so can you get them And think about it right now, if you had a team in New York and you've got the Rangers and the Knicks and the playoffs, I mean, you're going to have a serious time competing against that if you actually schedule a football game up against that serious So there's a lot of things that take their attention away, and I think probably from that standpoint. Look, the one thing I can tell you is when you

got the national broadcasters involved, they're smart. They're smart. They know the value of audience acquisition. They know what it's going to take to get them every quarter of the year, and where they're going to get derailed or where their attention and focus is going to go to. They're very very smart, and I'm sure they're leaning in on that information very very hard, and I'm sure they're lending that information to the league office at the UFL for sure.

For sure, in those decisions, how do you view We've talked a lot here coming at the end of the season, do you relocate the team that's not working? And hey, how dangerous do you buil? Do you view team relocation? Especially where you know some of these like you know, what what was it? It was at Memphis, It was actually Tampa, and then it was Memphis and now you know, like some of these places haven't even been in the markets for two three years? How do you how dangerous

do you view that? You know? Again, it depends what you're actually picking up from an audience perspective. Right, If you're getting a national audience and it's scattered throughout the country, I don't think that audience is going to care if Team A picks up and moves to, you know, a new city. I don't think it's gonna matter. I don't think there's enough hype

and I'm not close enough to it and watching it close enough. I don't think there's enough hype in each of these cities right now as they exist that any one you know, fan base is going to be like, you know, oh my gosh, our team left us. I don't think that would happen. I mean, first of all, from the spring football side, these cities have seen it come and go and come and go and come and go right, and so they're used to how close they're going to actually get

to that entity. So I don't I don't think it's a huge factor. And that's what I'm saying. I think, you know, with Fox, they can be pretty smart, with all the broadcast partners, they can be pretty smart and say, you know what, this one didn't really pan out like we thought it would. We're having challenges putting butts and seats to make it look good for TV. Let's maybe try market X. What do you guys think, you know, here's what our data shows us, here's what

we know. Let's give that a try next season and then you know, you spin it and you see what happens. I think they have, you know, that ability to do that. So do you worry then about a new future market feeling burned because of that, like, well, hey, they just came from I mean because I know the Arena League and all that mood around, But we have people scream on both sides. I mean that's why I asked the questions because I see both sides of the coin. I

really do. Oh, I believe me. I do too, because I've been on both sides of the coin. And you know, look, I know you want to kind of pin the AFL, but look at these these fans once again, right, I mean they were going into last weekend, last few weekends thinking they're going to games and the plug gets pulled. So I get it. I mean, you definitely don't want that kind of situation to happen. If you've electrified a fan base. And I say electrified a

fan base. That fan base could be one hundred, that fan base could be twenty thousand, right, But if you've electrified a fan base, you're going to have to evaluate what that decision of relocation looks like and what you're going to end up you know, getting, is a backlash on it. And do they understand I mean this is this is a complex strategy of what you know, the UFL in particular is trying to pull off, and I

think you have to communicate that to these fans. And I think that's really really critical in the standpoint of their success, because those fans need to understand, Hey, listen, you were at the games. We got ten thousand people and a forty five thousand seat venue. It just doesn't work like if you can pick up thirty thousand of your friends and bring them fantastic, right,

But that's not happening. So you know, I think, you know, as long as the parties can communicate that, I have faith in the UFL, I have faith and really, you know, Dwayne Johnson, I think that guy's so connected to his fan base. He doesn't want to he doesn't want to piss anybody off by relocating. And if he does have to relocate, I think he's going to communicate that. Right, if this were to become the iffactor, right, I think he's going to communicate that.

He's going to make sure that, you know, he's not pissing off any rock fans in the process, right, which is important. Well, and I agree, I think league transparency is incredibly important to me, and we had them. The ruling came down today from the CFL in regard to this Chad Kelly stuff that we've been tracking just to kind of timestamp everything. But

I think you need to have league transparency. I think the UFL should act more like a transparent maybe arena league in communicating with their fans versus we are a top four, top five league right now. I think, in my opinion, I think sometimes the UFL, well, we don't need these people covering the league or this doing that. We are the UFL, and I think you can get built to that point. But I think engaging communities and communicating with your fans, I agree with you. I don't know if that

would happen, but I agree that that should happen. Well, you know, here's just an interesting read. You know, Commissioner David Baker. If you were familiar with Big David Baker, the commissioner of the Arena Football League. When I was there, and again I apologize for going back, he always to say something, by the way, this guy was, Oh my god. He was just an enormous man. When he entered a room, it was like Holy Cow. And he came with this positive attitude and energy.

Most recently he was head of the Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio for the NFL. But he used to be so positive. And one of the things that he used to say almost at nauseum at board meetings and anywhere he went, even if he was talking to fans, if you want to be big league, you have to act big league, right, And he really got a lot of people believing. He certainly made me believe. I'll tell you I would have run through a wall for the things that he was

saying, because it was true. If you want fans to believe they're watching something of significant value, big league value, right, then you have to be doing things that are big league. Now, sometimes that doesn't work in the business model, but you have to suck it up and you have to you have to do what you have to do to make it be big league.

And you know, in Los Angeles we had an owner that you know I worked for there, Casey Washerman, who was highly committed financially, he was highly committed, he was highly committed to the to the team overall to make it work into the league. And you know, if the commissioner said, you know, you got to you gotta be big league, Casey would do what he needed to do to be big league. Now, by the way, that doesn't mean everybody in the league is going to do that.

And there was something I always used to say when we go to board meetings, and that's you're only as strong as your weakest team. And that's that's an unfortunate situation too, because if somebody is not kicking in and doing what they need to do. That's what's nice about the UFL in a single energy situation is they can say, look, guys, we're all here, We're all in this level. You can't play down here. We're I'm not talking about on the field and talking about business opera. You've got to be up

here. Everybody's got to be up here. This is our expectation. If you're in a franchise ownership situation, you can try to hold owners to certain levels, but owners can make decisions, right. We've seen that across every league in this country, around the world, quite frankly, And you can do whatever you want to do if you don't want to put all the money in to succeed business wise, on the field wise, hey, you can

do that to a certain degree. Right. So I think it's just one of those things that I think it's something that you know, as you point out, the fans want that, and so I think the UFL is trying and I'm sure you know Dwayne Johnson with a lot of stuff that you see him doing, I think he's trying to do that too, and kind of rally the troops around. It doesn't mean it's always going to be that, but I do think you got to I do think you got to try to

execute that way for sure. Appreciate here we're going. I hope you're good time wise here, we'll try to double time. I you're killery. I appreciate it as always like to check in year. So in terms of you this season, and we had the merger coming in and all that, you know, it was not a large ramp kind of runway going up to the season, right a couple of months in terms of engaging these markets, you know, the most these teams are going to see five home games, right,

maybe six with the playoff the Hubs in Texas. How difficult is that to engage what we're seeing. You know, during the end of the season, we're probably gonna have either layoffs or seasonal employees, right, We're only gonna have people involved, Like, how do you how do you kind of build these markets outside of you know, the three months you're in play in the five times you're in the markets each season. You know, again, I hate to go back to the arena days. We had some teams that's

why you're here. Yeah, yeah, I mean we had teams that had seasonal layoffs. We did not have seasonal layoffs in LA. We did not believe in it. It was a twelve month job to make that team succeed. All your work truly starts happening the day the season ends. You're really working towards the next season during that season, and so I don't think you can do that. There are, arguably, if some positions you can say are seasonal game ops for sure, But you know, are those gameops people

now ticket sellers? Are they promoters of some kind out in the community? You know, what do they do? I think what's really important and where we saw our success in Los Angeles in particular, it was really important for

me that we take the masks off the players. First of all, we find the right players, right that were really good on the field, good people, so they were going to be good in the community, and we took their masks off and we started marketing them without their masks on Tony Graziani, who was our quarterback, who I was just reminded by this the other night, by the way, I was watching the bon Jovi documentary on Hulu and he's in playing the p and I'm like, holy ship, there's the

Arena Football Championship trophy sitting on and it was Tony who was his quarterback, which I had. I had left the year before he well when he left in free agency, I think was the same year I left. So it was fun watching him lift that trophy with bon Jovi. But but we had Graziani. We had a wide receiver who was one of Ryan Leaf's wide receivers from your neck of the woods, Chris Jackson, who was one of the

best in the league. We brought in a kid named Greg Hopkins from uh he'd been in the Where was he He was in Albany and then Albany folded and he was with Indiana it was the Indiana Firebirds, and we brought him in. So we had three really strong football players that we can market around. And I got to tell you something. We went to high school games. That was part of our strategy is we we had the off season to go to the traditional football season, and we pounded it and pounded it and

pounded it. If I was the UFL inside of these markets, I would go to the grassroots. I would go to the youth football games. I would go to the high school games, maybe some of the college games if they're crowd's there, and I would start pounding and pounding and pounding. We saw success from that. We saw a turnaround where people were identifying with those

players the following year, and that momentum built. When you start doing it year after year after year and fans start to expect it and they see you out in the community, it works. It truly works. You gotta win too, by the way, right, you got to add a little bit of that winning sugar inside of it. But you know, it does work, and that's what I would recommend that these guys do. They've got to double down in the offseason if they really want to see success in the local

market franchises. We joke as in the CFL the last couple of seasons, the Edmonton Alexi you know, the Eskimos and then the alexaid have that tremendous and they've had Vijor Queen came in their president and left, and like, I mean, the team's stunk, and it's like, you can only do so many things here, and I want to talk about a ticket pricing year, but you know, you can only run so many deals or whatever. You know, the team is oh and thirteen or whatever. It's really hard

to do. I know it was Memphis last weekend. Did fly in the day early, because you know the thing is and I talked with Russ Brandon back. I mean this was two years ago when they announced the hub, and I said, well, you know, we've seen the challenges that the USFL have had, you know, only being in the hub, how are you guys going to benefit? He's like, we're going to be the first people and we're going to be the last people out. That hasn't always been

the case. You know, if we can fit in the media, you know, hit like when we fly into town on the way to the game and then on the way out. But I did see Memphis coming a day early this week, which I thought was great, and they went and volunteered with some kids and then they played the video during the game. That was great. But like you said, you know, it's the other nine months out of the year, and I just don't see. I don't, I

don't. I'm afraid I won't see that same motivation, that same time being spent. How many games are we talking about in a weekend for UFL? Now, so there's four games a week, eight teams, and so, like I said, you figure you got five home games plus playoffs, and then the championship is going to be in Saint Louis, So you got fiven opportunities of six. You know, if I was the UFL, I think what I would do is I would take the model that the Premier Lacrosse League

has done. Are you familiar with the Premier Lacrosse League? Yeah, so probably not as much as you are. Well, no, it's funny. You kind of look like one of the Rabbel brothers. Rabel they when they started that league, they looked at everything that everybody looks at from a startup problem, right, They had venue issues, What are their fans going to look like? You know, so on and so forth, and they traveled around and in like the circus, they traveled around and played their games,

all their games in a weekend in one location. And I don't think that would be a bad thing for the UFL. If you could find you know, maybe you can do it out of one venue. Maybe you do it. You know, you could probably do it Thursday night, Friday. Well you could do it a Friday night. Maybe do two games on Saturday and a game on Sunday, and just bring it all to the market, right,

bring it all over the market and sell package of tickets. This is the thing about sports right now is they've got to be thinking outside the box. And I'm not talking about if this is the box of what traditional football has always been. They got to be way out here, like am I off screen. I mean, they got to be way out here, right. We got to be able to say we are going to try this.

It sounds crazy, but we're going to try this. Because first of all, what's the value to a local fan If they're getting five home games a year anyway, you're not getting enough home games to build momentum of any kind. So you know, what they did in the Premier Lacrosse League I thought was brilliant. And you know, their goal is the same thing. Their goal is at some point to no longer be singul entity and at some point you know, sell those franchises off and go market to market. By the

way, we may never get there. They may find that the best way for this league to operator is to continue traveling around like they're doing it. Pick their locations, go to different markets every year to duplicate some because they're hotbeds for lacrosse, right. But I would I wouldn't. I would not rule that out. If somebody said you are now the new CEO of the UFL, I would throw that idea down and say, look, I think

we need to try it. I think we need to see what we can build from market to market, bring in focus to those games on those weekends. How many people can we put in the stands right to make it look great for television and see what happens. It's crazy, but crazy is what's going to really help push this thing upwards. Well it is. It's funny because when we were talking, because there was the issue the Vegas market going into last season had issues for the XFL and they weren't sure what they were

going to do. And you know, we had even batted around like do you have a traveling team and they're just always on the road and then you

build it that way. But I think we're seeing and I wanted to talk ticket pricing here, but we're seeing you know, with Birmingham that held all the USFL teams season one, and then they held you know, a quarter it was, I guess a quarter of the games you know, last year, and then now this year we're seeing that diminished result where it's like you almost saturated that market so much the first season with having forty home games there

that now when the Stallions play, and we'll see this weekend the Stallions are hosting it's the biggest game of the season, but are they going to get a crowd out there because it's like you've sow, like you've sewed that field too many times and it just you can't grow anything. Yeah. Look, it's it's the same formula that gets worked over and over and over again, right. I mean, you're going to see bumps, You're going to see

things that are going to occur. But this is why I come back to the idea, can you do something super crazy that'll just generate something that you weren't expecting and look at even under their current model, is what is that crazy? You know, I would truly be thinking, you know, outside that box to try to understand what is that crazy? Because it's it's tough, man, It's really tough in terms of ticket price this year. And

I want to read Max's question because I've value worded it well. But you know, basically, we're running ticket sales and ten dollars tickets and buy two for one and I think, uh, they're giving away like sunglasses now and hoodies and stuff trying to get in here. But when we're doing all that, how should the league balance trying to draw people in with cheap tickets while also not devaluing themselves so much that fans become this interested when the pricing goes

up. Yeah, that's that's another one of those You're bringing up a lot of double edged swords. Read a lot of double edged swords. Man. I don't even know where you could jump off on this one, to be honest with you, because it's the strangest thing the consumer, you know, as we talk about the sports fan here is the consumer. The consumer overall has behavioral traits that don't change product to product, and you can throw sports into the mix and it doesn't change. In other words, what I'm saying

is, if you put a value on something. Generally the consumer believes the value, right, And if you do a ticket for ten bucks to a football game, you've totally changed the dynamic of what the value proposition has been for an NFL game, and even in a college football game up in these markets. Right, Alabama's not ten dollars, right, If you're going to go see Alabama play, You're you're paying hundreds of dollars to go see an

Alabama football game. So it's very difficult. But on the flip side, you've got to do it because if you're going to put people in the seats to try the product, how how are you going to make that happen? That was a very very careful situation for us in LA. We did we did not want to. Our pricing model was our pricing model, but we clearly had strategies around that pricing model, whether it was group ticketing, whether

it was promos, whether it was family packs. I mean, there's a lot of different ways you can you can kind of cut it up, but yeah, I agree with you or agree with kind of where you're going here. So now the UFL, IT'SOK. Five years down the road, the UFL is successful, They're playing more than five games in the season at home, and you know they want those ten dollars tickets to now become one hundred

dollars. You know, when you're fifteen twenty rows or less off the field right now, all of a sudden, people are going, wait, I used to bring my kids here and it was a one hundred dollars proposition for tickets and food, and now it's a six hundred dollars proposition. Like wait a minute, time out, I'm not doing this. So there's a threshold of where that is. And you know, again that's where that's where you

know, having the true understanding market to market. So when you get into what do these and I don't know what these administrations look like market to market these operations, right, but that's where they become highly highly critical in understanding who those fans are, what it takes to get them out, what it takes to keep them and to retain them right, and what it's going to mean a year or two or three years down the road, or you know,

you got to think longer, you got to think ten years down the road. I mean for us to kind of come back to this to the Arena Football League, the one thing that league was great for and I have students coming through at ASU who were in that mix. It was a great kids event. It was like the circus for kids. It was NonStop action. They were screaming, they were hollering, and they became football fans.

They converted to the traditional size field from being arena football fans. And that was a very conscious strategy that we put into place, hoping to be there long term that if we can get into the young kids that in five years or ten years, when they are actually starting to make decisions on their own, they're going to decide to come to arena football games. In twenty years down the road, they're definitely going to come to those games and bring their

kids. And that's what you hope for in sports. But you know, again, that pricing model is a very very touchy avenue area for strategy. It's very tough, but you have to understand who your fans are and what their appetite is and how far their appetite will go in those situations. I don't think I'm really giving you an answer here what you wanted. You're good.

It's really difficult and it's market to market in analyzing. You know what the outcomes are going to look like well, and it's and this is no disrespect because I know we have a lot of the league, you know, and taking people listening to the show and following all that stuff. I mean, I think this is league. You know, this is higher up driven at this point. But I don't know what that strategy is, Like you said, you need to have some sort of strategy, Like I said,

here, it's like take a hood of you with this take sunglasses. Last year the USFL we're giving away spacheless come get to beach towel. We're doing the car. And now some people say, like that's a great idea, right, you know, increase that value. Uh, you know, proposition right, and hey, there's going to be they talked about in Memphis and you can bring uh you bring a jazz person in or whoever a band every week to do a show at halftime. Like the question, you know,

when do you give too much? Or I just and I know there's no right answer to that, but how do you you need to balance giving the whole kitchen synk trying to get people in versus like you're actually paying to watch the football at the end of the day. So I do think because we gave We did a lot of promotions. With the Avengers. We did bobbleheads, which our players they were floored by, and I think we did We did three or four bobbleheads a season, so almost half the games. There

were other things that we were giving away. I mean we were, and I think for the most part, everybody across the league, I think you have to get into that game. I mean, that's kind of what the sports fan is expecting these days. The NFL does not need to do that. It's not it's not in their DNA. They can charge whatever they want to charge. Major League Baseball totally different animal, right, They got they got quantity that they can sell for the most part, if you're not the

Braves or the Dodgers. But even the Dodgers have they might have ten bobbleheads during the season, maybe more. I mean every game, every homestand let me rephrase this, every series at home has got at least one game giveaway, and I would say it might be two, and it might be all three or four. I think there is things that fans have kind of expected from these I don't want to say lower end, but these these sports that are right, are not on the higher end. I think there's an expectation

that there's going to be more value somehow. I mean, look, it might be you know, we did a great family pack, and every team across the board does a family pack, so you can control your costs. You know what you're doing going in. You get four tickets, you get hot dogs, you get drinks, and you get something else ancillary. So I think you have to do that. I'm sure in the UFL, I'm sure they're applying all those practices. I would think, you know, it's

definitely something that you have to do. And you have to look at the layering of how you're selling your tickets. So you have the foundation if they have season tickets, right, and what's that look like? How do you and that's where that off season comes into play, and really the previous season, how are you selling into the next season. And then from there it's you know, you're talking about group ticketing, which is vital to the success

of a team. How are they getting out and bringing groups in. That's where you really can discount and hide that that value of pricing. And then you know promotions and different avenues. Some teams have done in Major League Baseball, they've gone to the subscription model. Hey, give it a shot, right, get one hundred bucks a person and give them five games and let them choose what they're going to go to. You've got plenty of seats. It's not like you know, I would I would take a shot at that

kind of strategy. So I think everything goes and I think this is truly in the UFL situation, very similar to what we had the AFL. It's a whiteboard and you just throw as much shit that whiteboard and see what sticks. Seriously, you know, I mean, that's that's what it comes down to, and see what works, and then you know what works, move it forward, what doesn't work, pin it and hold it for another day

in case the environment changes. A couple of quick here just media questions before we get out of it, in terms of the lead coverage, because I appreciate your time and know you've been very kind with this. How did the AFL teams go about covering themselves and getting stories out? Like did the teams have staff writers or reporters, Because like the XFL last year, they had a guy that was kind of doing like weekly blogs and articles. This year

we're not doing that. The UFL has never really had that, So I mean it's like we're trying to do that right and get step, But how did the league itself and the team's handle that. Well, my days of the AFL, so we can put this in perspective, social media was, Yeah, it just wasn't that platform yet. So we were still very much in Los Angeles we were, and I would say nationally to you, by

the way, we were still very much old traditional journalism relationships. We had beat writers in LA whether they were with LA Times, whether they were with the Daily News, the Orange County Register. We had those supports at each place. You know, look that entity when you're talking locally is a relationship game. And this cuts back to is this a position, a media position, media person position, media relations Is that a full time role that's in

the market twelve months out of the year. Now, one of the AFL teams there, Orlando Predators, they ended up, I believe, if I remember correctly, they cut their media relations person after the season ended. Well, that person still needs to maintain those relationships. And as the season starts gearing up and you're starting to do things, there are stories that spot now the world's changed, and I recognize that, especially working at ASU and the

journal in school. There are ways to create content and I think you have to work that old traditional aspect, but I think you have to figure out what your content strategy and develop your own content right, create your relationships with enities like you, which is great that you guys are trying to, you know, fill this void of football that's not the NFL, right, and provide the content that those fans want to see. And so you know, if I was running a team, I would make sure you were one of

my best friends. You were one of my best friends, like you are gonna whenever you need me, I'm on and whenever I can call on you to help, I mean, and that's what the game is, right, And then I would layer that with what am I creating or who can I partner with SU Journalism. If I have a team in Arizona, right, I'm going to go in there and that content factory, I'm going to say, look, we need your help. We'd like, you know, ten

stories a month if possible, that you guys can churn out. We will give you guys all access beat riders, you know, the whole nine yards and they do that. They do that with they've done that with Ratlers games here, and I think it's really important because, first of all, what's different from my days twenty years ago versus today? We got multiple content platforms that need to be filled right, and we cannot control where our fans are

per se. Our fans are across all of these platforms. So the question is do you have enough content? Are you communicating now? Now I say this and I will point this out. I don't know if you noticed, but the Arena Football League changed their website over the last few days. Did you notice? I haven't. It's been not enough bandwidth. What have they done? They changed it, they took it's totally new. It doesn't have still doesn't have the information in it that you would expect, like you can't

go to a standings page, which is dumbfounding to me. But the reason I brought it up is I looked at their social links and they had Instagram and which I think they must have acquired in bankruptcy because it looked like they still had the AFL account and they had X's. They had the AFL x's account, but they had Humble Humble like Humble. Okay, are you scratching your head and wondering what Humble is? Because I was, Okay, why are you wasting your time on Humble when you need to get in front of

where the larger crowds are for a reign of football? I mean, I would argue LinkedIn. I mean, as stupid as it sounds, there are people connected all over that place. How you found me? Who? I mean Humble? There's nobody on Humble, like, like, what's the point, right? I'm sure I'm going to get a note from somebody from AFL after this, but oh well, But my point is, and this is

my point to knock them. My point is, understand we're very fragmented and try to figure out where your attention needs to be on multiple platforms, not all the platforms, but on multiple platforms of significant meaning where you're going to affect fan engagement. That's what's most critical, right is how can you get

engagement from your fan base or new fans and engagement from them. Well, yeah, and kind of to round this out, because you know, you were talking about the bee riders and stuff, and there just aren't that many anymore anyway, right, and especially some of these markets, and I think we had talked last week on here, I can't remember. You know, like the Texas Rangers might only have a couple of bee riders, let alone you know, the Arlington Renegades, right Who's having the time to do that?

So I think that there's this weird balance of like, well, we need to work you know, there's not enough traditional media that we're working with right in terms of and I used to work in the local news. I worked with you know, the Fox here that had the we had the exbit, you know, all that kind of stuff back in the day. But you know, there's not enough traditional media. But they were kind of scared of this non traditional ride. I know there's been sports gambling podcasts and things

that have had challenges getting credentialed for some of these games. So I know, the league to me is in a weird spot because like, you know, I don't know who you're working with because you might only have a handful of beat riders, but then you're not dealing with the podcasters and the YouTubers and the gamblers and all that. So I don't know where they're spending their attention. But how would you given today's landscape I guess how would you balance

that energy well, or would you accept everyone? You know, Max has the question here, would you accept everybody in the world that's trying to cover your league or you know where do you draw that line? I guess, oh, yeah, no, for sure. Listen. I don't know if the site is still up, but you know, during my time at Arena Football, there was a site called arenafan dot com. Yeah, and there was a lot a lot of chatters. It's still up, yeah, Yeah,

there was a lot of chatter on that site. We didn't ignore it. If something came from that area, if there was content being written, we absolutely work with them and acknowledge them because they had audience, right, And so that's my point. You've got to look at where people are. Look if there's a podcaster that's, you know, drawing five hundred people, you've got to make a decision. Do you help that podcaster and hopefully help them grow? You know, evaluate, is there an opportunity, are they

good? You know, I would probably error on the side of doing it at least once a year or something, you know, talking to them, because you just don't know, right, You don't know sometimes where those audiences are going to end up growing. But that is the new journalism what you're

talking about, right, Those are the beat writers. Those are the people that if you're getting covered and especially consistently by those people, then you have got to acknowledge who they are and you have to be in constant contact with them. That's media relations that hasn't changed. That hasn't changed. The platforms have changed, but the people in the relationship aspect that hasn't changed. Because

I just think I think there's surround this out. I think there's a gun shyness because back when, uh, you know, the XFL maybe was announcing things or we're trying to figure out trademarks and cities and teams, like you had people that would go on team, people that would go on you know

whatever podcasts and release the cities before they were ready. Like you know, we're in week six, week seven of the UFL, Like there's no secret information, you know, like we're just trying to get you know, Darius Shepherd coming on the podcast or whoever like talking about it, you know,

a kick return or whatever. I mean, this isn't you know, we're not trying to get the inside scoop here a but I do think there's this gun shyness given things that have happened in the past, And I just like, like I said, you know, lack of traditional media and then we're not you know, not necessarily and we're very black side of the one that include myself in that. But like, I just don't know how how you balance that out, because that's it's something that all these you know, the

NFL's got to navigate. Who do we you know, who do we Creditio for the Super Bowl? Who do we not? I mean, every league's got to deal with it. But you would think the UFL, like you said, any amount of tension at this point is probably good, good guarded. Yeah, that to me would be the box that qualifies. Right, Hey, they're talking about us once a week. All right, let's go talk to him. Check the box. Let's amplify it. I mean, that's really what it comes down to, right, if you're talking about it,

you're talking about it. We got to amplify it. How can we amplify it? Right? I would do something where you know, in today's world, we've got the luxury of saying, hey, you know, make this up. Todd Mrco, the CEO of the ufls on with us today. I would go take your podcast and connect it to the UFL site or into my social media. I mean that all happens, right or should and promote it so it's not just you voting it. We're all lifting it up.

It's good for all of us, right, I mean, we're not getting enough coverage as it is, and so it's not a question of the old guard, it's a question of the new ways and how do we you know, bring more eyeballs, bring more airs to the table and get people talking about the product. And it only will happen if the content runs into them. Well you would be surprised when not surprised, so that does not happen. So you know, we get you know, I mean we accept

it. And I've gotten it both ways because they're like, yeah, the NFL, you know, like we've had the CFL commission on and they're not but it's like, hey, you should be just be happy that we're doing all this. So I understand both ways here, but you know, certainly not trying to plug that on my own, but just uh, it's just a new landscape and I'm just I would be curious to know, like what their media strategy is there. Well, Todd, we have gone the way

over time here. I think we could probably do another hour up. So appreciative and thankful of your time today. Anything you want to plug talk about get into before I let you go, because tremendously I said, probably double over what I said we were going to do. Now. I'll wait to promote next time when I have a new nonprofit to talk to everybody about.

But I appreciate you finding me. It's been fun, you know, going back to my arena days and you know, as I was telling you yesterday and we were talking, you know, I talked through this stuff every semester with my students and the evolution of what's going on in sports, and in particular how you know everybody's trying to grab a piece of the spring league somehow. I mean, it's amazing. We did account one day and I think I counted eight leagues that weren't the NFL ten leagues, and I don't think

people realize how many people are actually trying. And I think it's amazing too, by the way, that the NFL, who stays away from all of this for the most part. Back in two thousand and two, to two thousand and four. They got very engaged and very interested with the Arena Football League, very interested, and it's unfortunate that it didn't play out the way it should have because that should have been the Spring League in my opinion.

But I've enjoyed this and if there's anything I can ever help you with, don't hesitate to call. Well, Todd, we have officially fixed in the UFL. Here I'm want reading my title fixed fix the UFL, step by step blueprint. Appreciate it, Todd. Good luck with everything else. And like you guys said, I hope you guys enjoyed the talk. You know, I send your tips and commissions our way. We'll share it. You fixed all this kind of stuff. So until next time, Todd, thanks

so much. Thanks for well, it's not another spring football league season here.

We don't have our good friend Kevin Kugler back on all the way back with the spring league. And I will say, I so enjoy even watching the NFL games, like, oh, Kevin's here with Mark and they're in you know, they're at loomen Field or whatever. So I appreciate that. Kevin Cougler here, Fox Sports, how are you? I am good and I know Red You've got a lot of Mark and Ither. Sure during the NFL season, because it seemed like every other week we had a Seahawks game.

You know, it really did. And I yes, I I go back and forth because I like the Washington Commanders of kind of some of the XFL history of that, and we tracked a lot of them, and obviously Seattle with my hometown here and my wife diehard Seahawks. Fancy. Yeah, it always seems like every time I turn on the game, there's Kevin exciting here. We're back. We've talked with you with the Spreen League I have.

I actually finally tracked down the Jowsers jersey. I don't know if I told you, Wow game Warren Jowsers Jersey from the Mega Bowl, all that stuff. Kevin here, We're back. We're UFL now where Fox and Redbird and everything combined. How is life treating you? What do you make of all this? You know what, it's actually been really fun. I think the football is really a high quality football, and it would make sense. You take the best of the USFL, you take the best of the XFL,

you put them into a pot. You have eight teams to parcel these guys out onto, and it would make sense that you're going to have the cream rise to the top, so to speak. And I think that's what we've seen this year in the UFL. It's been a really good brand of football. I love the innovations of the league. I love the one,

two and three point tries for extra point. I think I think we've seen a lot of really cool communications again this year, like we did in the USFL days between the officials and our replay command center, and I love that for the fans. I think it's great that that airs in the stadium as well as on our broadcast, because so how many times you've been sitting in

the stadium and you're like, I don't know what they're doing here. I don't know what the officials are talking about, whether it's football, basketball, baseball. I like to know, and I like the fact that we share that with everybody in the stadium as well as at home when you're watching on

TV. Curious to you kind of I don't know that Fox has directives for you guys, because it's it's weird now this year where we're watching some ESPN broadcast, we're watching some Fox right and candidly, I think the Fox I like, like we get a lot of sports betting on the ESPN, sometimes a lot of like hitting the over hit. Like do they give you guys directive? Is it trust now? Because you've done it so long, I'm just curious, like, what is their marching orders for you guys to come

up on the games? Yeah, I've had I will be one hundred percent honest with you. I've had no marching orders of any kind calling a game from Fox. No one has said to me, hey, be sure you do this or don't do that. I think there's a trust level that. I mean, we're putting out people who cover sports and football specifically all the time, whether it's Joel Klatt in our main analyst chair, who's the number one guy for college football, whether it's Kurt Menafee. And we all know

what Kurt has done over the years. He's been in football for a long time. I've covered the NFL for a long time, and obviously a lot of different incarnations of spring football over the last several years. I think there's just a certain trust level. Fox is football. That's always been the mantra of Fox, and so I think when they put us on these broadcasts. They trust that they trust that we're going to do the game justice, and I hope that's what we're doing, because to me, the game is the

thing. The stories that are in these games are so numerous that you really don't need to come up with anything else. You can talk about a guy like Briland Speaks, who looks at this as an opportunity to show what he's worth and to show who he is, an opportunity for a guy like Adrian Martinez to show that he deserves a chance after his college career to continue to play professionally. A guy like AJ McCarron who's showing that he is a professional

quality quarterback. I just the stories that are in this league are such that I don't think you need to issue any kind of a directive about anything because we can just tell stories all day long and supplement it with what's been some

fun football. Well, and you pointed that out, I think the first time we had you on and just the extra research that was needed to do games like this and really happen to do your homework and be able to be prepared for that because it isn't you know, Yeah, Okay, like Aj McCarron. People know you have to go like deeper on some of these players to get more information to be able to share that. So I think and

you feel like it, certainly, at least from the Fox side. I think you do get a lot of like informed opinions here coming out from the broadcast booth well, and I appreciate that. I hope that's the case, because at the end of the day, the goal for all of us is to boost the stories of these people in this league. I mean, these are all guys who are continuing their professional football career in the UFL. And look, everybody knows that the ultimate goal for anybody playing football at any levels

to play in the National Football League. And not everybody can do that. So what's the next best thing, Well, right now, it's the UFL the chance to get paid to play football, have a team, and really play some excellent competitive games. And I think that. I mean, the competition level has been razor thin with these games. I mean, Arlington is zero to six and they lose games by the slimmest of margins seemingly every week.

Because that's what this league is. This league is just one play changes the entirety of the game, and I think that speaks to the talent that we have in this league this year. Yeah, I think it's a tough balance to do these and you know, like again, this goes all the way back to the USFL in the Spring League and even the XFL, Like, how do you balance wanting people to watch this now also knowing that this is the kind of the show of people getting alonging to be at the show.

I think it's a better this year. We had Darryl Johnson on preseason talking about wanting to kind of highlight more of just the talent in the football field, you know, the play as it is now versus like every other line is, well, this guy's trying to get back to the NFL with this guy. Yeah, it's like you said, we know that, but that can't be ninety nine percent of the conversation. No, I think. Look, you go into any spring league, and you and I have talked

about this for years. You go into any whether it was the Spring League, whether it was the original XFL, whether it was the USFL, you go into it. I hope with the base knowledge of these guys want to play in the NFL someday, whether they've already been there or they want to get back. You go into with that knowledge. I don't need as a play by play guy to underline every single play that's made and say and that

guy would like to take that film and go to X level. The focus for us is there's a game going on, and a game that means a lot to these guys, and a game that means a lot to the fans of these teams. So let's cover the game. And the game speaks for itself in a lot of ways. I mean, we've got a game this weekend that on Fox is maybe the game of the year so far in the UFL, with Birmingham and Saint Louis, two of the best, if not the best, two teams in the league and maybe the two best quarterbacks in

the league right now. And read you know this, all spring football is about is how's your quality of quarterback play? That's where I always start with this. If you have good quarterback play, that is a really good base

to start. I think the quarterback play is better in the league this year than we've seen over the last couple of years, again because we've winnowed down the talent, but the way Adrian Martinez is playing at Birmingham the way AJ mccerron is playing in Saint Louis. And I've had those two teams the last two weeks. I don't know of any two quarterbacks playing better right now, and they match up this weekend. Yeah, we'll focus on that game here.

I wanted to get your thoughts on. So we had the Renegads collapse again, right the Panthers, and I'm watching and the Mariners game was on, so I've gotten this split three going on, and I see, you know, Jake Dates, you miss the field goal, right, and anyone that why, I don't know how familiar with our with CFL history, but a great Cup was lost than won by. It was the thirteenth man and there was the thirteenth man and then they got the kick again, and I

tweeted that out. I said, theirs CFL, you know rough Rider fans right now, Like, what was that like? Because here's this guy that's been automatic the whole season, had missed, you know, missed the kick earlier in the game, and then just that, like you think Reneges have Like I just curious your thoughts on that, and then kind of the Renegades

collapse here. It was. It was something to watch because you saw him trying to get off the field as quickly as he could because there was there's somebody out there and all of a sudden, he knows, oh my gosh, I'm not supposed to be on the field. And I think it was a Jean Harris. And if it's not, I apologize to Jean. I don't want to. I'm trying to recollect. And I thought it was five that was running off the field late for Arlington, and if it wasn't a

genre, my apologies. But there was a player that was trying to get off the field late, didn't get off, and then he missed the kick, and you go, oh my gosh, there's a flag down, and you knew right away. Twelve men on the field, it's a no brainer call. And Michigan, by the way, still had their super challenge, so if they didn't catch it, Michigan could have super challenged and had that

called with the new super challenge rule this year in the UFL. So either way, that twelfth man was getting called and Jake Bates was getting another chance to kick that field goal. And you just know, based on the story of Jake Bates this year, there was no scenario he was going to miss

that second kick. I mean, he he has been so he's been one of the biggest stories in professional football this spring and a chance for Jake Bates to I mean, he's he is the He was one of the top twenty trending topics in America yesterday after he hit his third sixty plus yard field goal of the season. It's a crazy story for a guy who'd never kicked a field goal before to come out in Week one, hit that sixty four yarder and get to the point where he hits another game winner yesterday. It's it's

really what this league is all about. It's all about giving guys opportunities to show what they can do, and maybe they haven't had that chance before. But to your point about the Renegades, man, it's to the point for Arlington where you just watch and you think, how what crazy way are they

going to lose this game? Now, we've all seen teams like that over the years where it's just it seems like they're snake bit and despite the heroics of Luis Perez and a better running game than we've seen from Arlington yesterday, they still figured it out a way at the end to not close it out. And I mean, your heart goes out to those guys, because it's got to be incredibly frustrating week after week after week to see it come down

to that kind of a thing again. Well, and it's hard because obviously the narrative coming in the season, even from the kickoff game, you know, you have the USFL champions, you have the XFL champions, like, you know, the they kind of the right agains, kind of limped into the playoffs and you know they weren't Like I was at the championship game.

I'm not quite sure how they won that. I mean, obviously we have a lot of friends on the team, but it's to see the disparity here of the Stallion's kind of being undefeated here going in and the Renegades not are you surprised? The Renegades were like, we're still And I love Luis sprez He's been on the show like all the way back and the Joussers like he's still like, we're not trying, Lindsay Scott Moore, We're not trying.

I know they have the third like it just feels like I don't know if they if they're trying anything new now, if they're just kind of riding it out, yeah, I think you're I always defer to the notion that the coaches see it every day in practice and they know that Luis Perez is their best option, because that there's no way that if there was a better option, they're not going to put him out there right now. And I think for the Renegades, that's the best choice they have on their roster. And

you know, you've got Lindsay Scott. You're working him in a little bit more and he's but yesterday we didn't see him throw the ball. He came in and he and he ran or pitched exclusively in that game. And I would be interested to see what he could do from a throwing standpoint. But again, I always defer to this from a foot ball standpoint when I'm not

in practice to see these guys, these coaches. I've never known a coach who's willingly going to put a guy out there that's not the best guy for his team and for his situation, And so I always assume that what's happening in practice is Luis Prez is clearly the number one option for the Arlington Renegades, and you know he got hurt yesterday by a couple of drops. Again.

I mean, there's just some inconsistent plays there, and it's a fine line in this league between winning and losing, and they have always seemingly fallen on the losing side of that fine line. Speaking of the Super Challenge, and that's kind of seems like a no brainer, right. It's something maybe to work in here in a couple of years, I know, and if you want to go down the rabbit hole of the NFL ACUL kickoff or any of that kind of stuff, but you know, more innovations here coming from

the league. I mean, it seems like that's something we can challenge anything at any time, something to work towards here in the next couple of years. I don't know about you, Reid. I love the Super Challenge. I think it's great, and I think there's such a strategy to it that

we haven't really even gotten into yet. There's the strategy of do I throw a flag for a Super Challenge on a play of my team to get a penalty called against my team When a play goes wrong, if for example, my quarterback throws a pick, I can throw a super challenge flag and say there was holding on my left tackle on that play, and they can go back and call a hold, or they can call something that would negate a

turnover and negate a penalty. They gate something negative for your team with something less negative. Oh, I think my guy moved early. All right, Well, we called a false start, so this is this place should have stopped before it started. I think there's so much strategy involved in this, and I think as coaches get more comfortable with it. We had to play over the weekend in the Houston Saint Louis game where we brought in Mike Pereira.

There was a play where pass rusher came in. Don mo OpenU came in and hit reed senate pressure him hit him in the head. It wasn't anything deliberate. He just in the process of going after the quarterback got him in the head. And we asked him should they have used a super challenge to get a penalty called on that which would have extended the drive? And Mike Pereira said, had they used it there, he would have given a

penalty for roughing the passer. But again, I think it takes a certain amount of time for coaches amidst everything else going on to wrap your brain around. Okay, now I got to think about the strategy for this. But in the NFL, you could almost have a designated Super Challenge guy on your staff, like his only job is to come up with the Super Challenge moment for your team. We saw Bob Stoops use it in wonderful fashion yesterday.

It gave the Renegades a touchdown because they negated a pass interference on Salcinela. I would love to see the Super Challenge go up to the next level because I think it adds a different layer of strategy. Now, I don't want to add it on in addition to all the other views, and I don't think the NFL would want that either. I think there's a way to supplement and weave it into the existing system that makes it even more interesting and exciting

and the strategy just becomes such a big deal. I love the Super Challenge, big, big fan of it. I think that's an innovation that can continue, not only at this level, but at the NFL level. It was the XFL game last year, and this is, however many thirty the CFL and x l U games, But it was like Baalahawks Randy Gates. I think the anti back day is like they had a pick sticks or something like something had to have happened on this play, like we're just you know,

we're throwing it. We'll figure out what we want to call it on. But I think we talked about it at the time. It was kind of like Survivor, like the evolution of the immunity idol, Like here we're goin to get in the game play and figuring out do you like do you like the kickoff? Do we like? And then we haven't seen the NFL version of the XFL kickoff yet, Like very divisive statement, you know, thing here right now it is, and I'm I'm not one hundred percent sold.

I was really, I'll be honest with you. I was really surprised that the UFL didn't go with the XFL kickoff, considering the NFL has adopted the XFL kickoff strategy, so I was really surprised that they went with the USFL kickoff versus the XFL kickoff. I know one thing, we get a lot of returns. The return game is alive and well in the UFL, and if you've got a good return man you're starting with field position at the

thirty five to forty five yard line nearly every drive. And from somebody who loves offense and somebody who loves to see that work into play, I do like that aspect of this kickoff rule. I like the fact that you have the opportunity to have the return game involved. I was just very surprised, and you're right, it's a very controversial topic amongst those of us who enjoy the football year round, is well, where's the kickoff? What should it

be? I'm anxious to see the NFL implement it and see what it looks like at that level this fall, because that's going to be a change, and it's going to be something that everybody's going to have to get used to. The USFL now UFL kickoff is a little more of the traditional kickoff in that they just kick from the twenty yard line and then we have the returns that way, and you have certain amount of rules to whin you can leave and how far away from the line you have to be and all that stuff.

But I will be very interested to see this implemented from last year's XFL at the NFL level, and I think this is a year to look at it and then adjust if necessary down the road. One more question here. I want to talk Houston real quick as you call that, and then we can I want to preview the BattleHawks game before we get out of here.

Like Houston really kind of disaster here, I mean really, and like you know, we had the whole like Curtis Johnson was on preseason, I'm kind of excited, and we had the rebrand and we're moving the teams and all that kind of stuff, but this team really can't seem to get anything together. Going thoughts on kind of the Houston trash fire. Well, I mean, and you saw their defense I thought play their best game of the season this past weekend. That's not an easy offense to stop in Saint Louis,

and I thought they did a really good job of limiting AJ mccern. They did a lot of bending but not breaking. But that offense has really struggled to get things going. And I like Reed Senet a lot. I think he is a talented quarterback. I think he's got a full grasp on this offense. They're just not getting anything at all from a rushing game. I

mean, and with Mark Thompson, on that roster. I keep waiting for that breakout game, like you and I have seen the last couple of springs from this running back, and there's just been nothing of any semblance of a run game that's come up for Houston. I mean, through six games, I think they've rushed for three hundred and forty total yards. I mean, you're not going I don't care what level of football you're at, and I know it's a passing world in football today at every level. You have to

be able to run the ball a little bit. You've got to be able to push the ball when you have to push the ball on the ground. You've got to be able to get short yardage on the ground in short yardage situations. And to me, that's been the most surprising thing with the Houston Roughnecks this year, is there seeming inability to establish any kind of a run

game, even now with supposedly a healthy Mark Thompson. Who I mean, my gosh, last year Mark Thompson was the difference for the Houston Gamblers then in the USFL. I had fourteen rushing touchdowns, almost seven hundred yards rushing. And this year, I know he was dinged up early and that's that hampered his progress. But I've been really surprised they've been They've been unable to

establish anything from a run game. And look, you get a run game going, that helps everything on your team, That helps your quarterback, that helps your line play, it helps your defense. Without that run game, it's been really hard to do anything for Houston, and that's I'm sure been a frustrating thing for everybody there. I think they have talent, but they

just have not been able to put it together on the ground. And that's where it's all to me, that's where it started to be shaking in terms of, like you said, kind of the biggest game here of the weekend coming that Ballahawks going. It could be a you know, it could be a championship game preview where that one would be in Saint Louis, which we're going to be out, I imagine would be pretty exciting. But what do you make about this? Like it seems like the Stallions Ballahawks their tea,

but the Stallions are heading class shoulders. It seems about anybody right now. You've got the two best defenses first off, and I know we've got to talk to offense with these two teams. But the way these two teams have defended this season I think is admirable. But I mean, ever since Birmingham settled on Adrian Martinez, they have become this offensive juggernaut. And how smart is Skip Holtz were two weeks ago? How do they win the game?

Well, Adrian Martinez wins it with his legs, So everybody's like, Okay, we got to worry about this mobile. This guy's gonna run, this guy's gonna run. It comes out last week, throws for nearly four hundred yards this past weekend in Birmingham's win. They so now when you're preparing for Birmingham, you've got to worry about Adrian Martinez running. You've got to worry about Adrian Martinez passing. You've got to worry about this Birmingham defense. I

think Skip Holtz and Anthony Beck have done both tremendous jobs this year. And I'm so anxious to see this quarterback matchup between AJ mccarrot and Adrian Martinez, two very different quarterbacks. AJ's thirty three years old, Adrian's just twenty three, twenty four years old, just out of college. So you've got two

very different kinds of quarterbacks, different ages, different spots in life. But man, Saint Louis going to Birmingham, you feel like Birmingham would have the edge, especially the way they're playing, but I know Aj Mccaern's going to have something devised. And again, I've yet to see somebody in this league stop Jaquem Butler. I mean, nobody seems to be able to handle this guy. He's six' six, he's got good hands, good speed,

he knows how to use that size against smaller corners to his advantage. That's a tough matchup for every single secondary in the UFL and I'm fired up to see how Birmingham handles that because Saint Louis has eight men and they have Butler, two of the biggest bodied wide receivers in all of football. To go

out there this weekend. It's a fascinating game from so many levels, and I'm so excited for Birmingham and Saint Louis to get going on the field because I think we've really been kind of looking forward to this matchup all season long. Yeah, I think he canceled the season here, let's just really to the championship. But it is crazy because even during the Birmingham game over the weekend. I was watching you. They get all the sideline staff and you're

seeing Skip talk and they're talking to you. Matt Carral's given sideline commentary and then you have it. They're talking like, oh yeah, even Jmr Smith is involved in all this stuff. And you know, Skip's so good. He has a whole quarterback room just helping them kind of coach up his quarterback let alone what he's doing. It just it's it's an embarrassment of riches.

It feels like for the Birmingham Sallids right now. It really is. And I think the underrated other story with both of these teams is the culture that these coaches have developed. I don't think it's easy in a shorter season to establish a culture like you see with both Saint Louis and Birmingham. And a credit to Anthony Beck and to Skip Holtz. Now they have a lot of returning guys and that certainly helps that culture, a lot of guys who understand

what they're trying to do. But to be able to establish that culture in a situation where you're together for just a few months, I think that's a real tip of the cap to those two coaches and the staffs that they've assembled in their respective cities. I can't tell you how impressed I've been with both of those teams and both of those staffs and my dealings with them this year. I'm excited to see what they do playing head to head this weekend.

Well, Kevin, I appreciate it taking time here early in the week and working there on my work schedule and everything else. That means a lot. And like I said, I always get to see you back involved with all of this stuff, and you know, it's a you know, it's a job, and it's also a passion here to company to be involved in all this stuff, So that means a lot. So thanks for taking the time.

Oh No, I love this stuff, you know, Erett. I mean, shoot, We've been having these conversations since the Mega Bowl days a few years ago, right after COVID, and I look forward to them every time. So thanks for having me on. And you feel like last I think I was saying here, you feel good about this, You feel good where we're at now with the UFL. I do, I really do? I really feel like there is a I mean, look, there are always

situations and things that can be improved upon. Everybody knows that, but I think for a first year with two merged leagues, I think you've seen a lot of real positives and it really I mean, look, I know I'm biased, it's my business, but I think you have to be really encouraged by the television numbers that you've seen for these games. People are watching.

There is an audience out there to watch football in the spring. We as a culture, we as a society, we love football and we love it all year round if we can get it, and there is that market for it, and I think you've seen it reflected in the TV numbers, which I think is a really good base to build from as we continue to push this forward. Awesome Kevin Koogler, Fox Sports. Really appreciate your time. Thanks thanks for having me on read Well. How do we do think?

It was a fruitful conversation with Todd, and of course I always enjoy catching up with Kevin as well. I'm getting his thoughts from the Fox Sports broadcast perspective and I've had it was interesting, you know, like does Fox give

you kind of directions for the broadcast so they trust you? Guys? Thought Kevin was great thought Todd was great, Like I said, get him this random email from me, you know, on a Friday afternoon last week, like, hey, do you want to come on and talk some alternate football? So hope you guys enjoyed. You know, it's not always apples to apples here. You know, they like the AFL and the United Football League.

But I think ticket sales or ticket sales and marketing is marketing and advertising and engagement kind of the same no matter what what you know, if it's a sport, if it's the entertainment property, anything else. So hopefully Todd's got some good ideas there. Like I said, let me know what you guys thought. Did you enjoy Todd's perspectives? Agreed? Disagree kind of all

of that stuff. We'll figure out what we're doing next week. I've been in conventions filming the last couple of weeks, so hopefully we will settle down and get you a little bit more CFL content and everything else like it. Subscribe, but we'll see you guys next time. Thanks and take care of