Episode 167 - Live Together or Die Alone

Coming up this week on the Mark Cast, Well, the alternative football landscape is kind of like being stranded on the desert island, lack of supplies or in factions, you name it. But when the XFL and the USFL are coming together with the intent to merge with the new presumed United Football League, is this the last grass for the current state of alternative football? Without the XFL and the USFL working together, will they die alone? To your inner

Jack Shepherd, it's time to go back to the island. But if we can't live together, we're going to die alone. Great show this week, joined by a longtime friend of the podcast, USFL and alternative football historian Paul Reese. We are talking the newly acquired United Football League trademark from the XFL, as well as getting Paul Stotts on the current landscape of alternative football with

the impending merger. I think that this is the attempt for probably a decade that if this doesn't work, that it will be very difficult to have real money jump back into this and fun and alternative league. So yeah, absolutely that this probably needs to work or it's just not going to work for a

while. Then lots of CFL stuff to talk about this week. Jamie Nye of The Green Zone up in Saskatchewan joining us talking the Riders lose in the CFL twenty twenty three season, as well as sharing his thoughts on everything CFL Week twenty. They're done. They're done with this team. They're done with the coaching staff, They're done with the general manager. They're done done. Some people want don't even want them to make the playoffs. That's how done

they are with Then, this is the second straight year. It's absolutely Groundhog's Day for the Rough Riders to go six and five and then lose seventh straight last year and now could lose seven straight this year if they lose to the Toronto Argonauts on Saturday. And then Gord Randall of Crown grid Iron Nation joining us again. We're talking to America's CFL t the BC Lions, the entire

CFL WES Division playoff matchups and more. I question whether Chris Jones is going to be able to put it all together because so far, as a head coach he hasn't. As a coordinator he has. As a head coach he has not. And so that's where I wonder about things because his tenure as a head coach, whether in Saskatchewan or here in Edmonton, has been marred

by questionable personnel decisions, has been marred by at times controversy. It hasn't been great and I just don't know if he's the guy to get that job done. Should be a good one. Lack and subscribe. Hey guys,

we's goo to the marcass read here. Not too many years ago, Lost was literally the biggest thing in the history of the world. Really seemed to fall off. I can't figure out a bigger drop off from season finale till now Game of Thrones or loss. But we are talking staying together, living together, not dying alone. Today. Jack Sheppard, Matthew Fox, star of that program a big part of my life going through college, are always happy to get a throwback with that today. Lots of stuff to get into.

We'll keep this short. Talking with Paul Reese, like I said, with our Sport Central Paul knowable USFL historian altern to the football historian, wanted to get Paul's thoughts on kind of the new trademarks next week with the UFL. Does he think you we're bringing teams from the UFL, which we're not but getting Paul's thoughts on that with his he make of the XFL and USFL

wanting to work together to merge. Lots of good stuff with Paul and then a double trouble CFL guests this week with Jamie and I. I appreciate him taking time after work up in Saskatchewan and then gorg Randall making time during work. Really appreciate that talking CFL Week twenty and getting into a lot more of

the playoff stuff, off season stuff. Lots to get into there. A little bit of a sleepy weekend with the three games, but I should be exciting nonetheless, So hope you guys enjoy I think that will do it for me today. We will see you at the end. Thanks as always, Like and subscribe, well, I appreciate it back here, trying to remember

the last time we had Paul reeson. We've had a lot of new subscribers joined just kind of during all of this, you know, shenanigans with the United Football League, National String Football League kind of merger stuff. Paul is our resident USFL historian, all football historian, runs our sports Central, written a book about the USFL. Anything else that's kind of set the context because I think your unique guest to get on here to talk about this stuff.

If so, for those who aren't familiar with our Sports Central, we cover minor league sports essentially, so everything below the big four professional sports leagues, and so over the years we've kept an eye on all the xfls and the new USFL United Football League all those, so those have all and in our purview over the years. So you know, we've gone through a lot of

this, and obviously we've shared our qualms about the USFL and everything. What did you know and the XFL to that regard, but what like when you heard all this, you know, XFL reaching out, USFL merging together here, intent to merge, what did you what did you make of that?

Here after the first season of the XFL. It's kind of funny. I kind of flashed back to a conversation that we had had earlier before the XFL season started in and how much I remember having to pull the reins back on don't talk about merger, don't talk about potential merger, because I think so many of us had that kind of out in the distance. We thought, you know, eventually, this is the way that this is almost going to

have to go. It doesn't It doesn't make a lot of sense for these leaks to be competing against each other for not the largest audience out there. So no surprise at all that it happened. You know, these things tend to be quiet until there's actually a lot of force behind what's going on, and that's exactly what we saw happen. Were you surprised that happened so quickly in terms of you know, the Forbes report comes out, XFL losing money,

Darryl Johnston coming out saying we were disappointed with everything season two. I mean because to me, this, you know, the quickness of this doesn't speak to both of these leagues. We're tremendously excited with how you know, season two of the USFL, Season one of the XFL turned out, you know, and I looked at that Forbes report a lot differently than a lot

of other people. Did you know, when I saw sixty million dollars in losses, I thought, oh, my goodness, you know, I really thought it was going to be one hundred million, you know, for them

to have done that, well, I was a little bit surprised. We saw the erosion of the USFL's TV rating so I was not, you know, particularly surprised to see that they were looking for a different answer, you know, And we'll see how much the XFL actually contributed to that, or if the USFL had picked up a lot of initial interest just based on curiosity

and that wasn't necessarily there in year two anymore. You know, the USFL, I think they put together a better TV product in year two because they had a few more crowds, and yet that didn't translate in the ratings, which is what's really important to Fox. So they, you know, they you know, we'll see what they do as far as the merger, and I do hope that we see kind of the best of both worlds, so

the best that each league has to offer. I guess I would love to be a fly on the wall here in some of these rooms with these executives of like, what were your expectations going in? What did you think?

Because and I told this story before on here. I remember the first time Paul and I XFL, you know, episode one, We're I'm like, we're gonna put this on YouTube. Man, We're gonna like all these people are gonna be watching, and You're like, it's not you know, and I try to talk to people now and they're like, well, okay,

like what do you do. I'm like, well, you know, it's like it's really niche and like we're really good in our space, but it's it's such a minute thing, and I'm just curious, like because I've heard people talk, you know XFL ticket people, you know, pre all this stuff like oh, yeah, we're going to be a top five, six seven league here in terms of selling tickets, and you're like, what's like,

what's realistic? Do you Does it strike you that maybe Redbird got a little bit of cold feet here and that's why we're moving in this direction. I honestly did not really believe that Redbird was in it for the long haul. I think that they flip and so they saw an opportunity they reached out. I'd had somebody who is familiar with with both organizations, both Redbird and Fox, and he had told me months ago you better believe he's reached out

already to Fox. So it wasn't particularly surprising to me that that was you know, Redbird is it was bankrolling the XFL you know, the Rock and Danny Garcia had you know, huge management roles to play and so that you know, they did a lot of the day to day things, but Redbird was the money behind the league, and so really it was going to go

as far as Redbird was willing to go. And I think as soon as they saw an opportunity to to turn this around to maybe make a little bit of money or possibly even just stem the losses, maybe they didn't see an end to the losses as quickly as they had hoped that they took it. I want to get well, we're rehashing a little bit of the conversations we've had the last couple of weeks soon as I want to get your take on it, and then obviously we'll transition here in the kind of the the trade

marks and just kind of the you're like repeating history. It is all this, But you know, we've had conversations the last couple of weeks about dragging the audience outright asking them for a lot of patients here you've you know, followed all of these and you know the xfl oh one twenty twenty, Like it feels to me like, okay, we're just handing this off now, like we're kind of done with this, moving this on in terms of the all football fan like, how strenuous is this to kind of live through this

this world like that this is this is what we signed up for it. We've done this before, you know, and I look back at you know, when the USFL was folding. You know, they have this lawsuit going on. Okay, we have a lot of hopes on a lawsuit. We have a fall season scheduled, and you know, all of it was you know, all of it ended up deteriorating. And we've seen XFL they get out of that first year. The TV ratings were relatively horrible in two thousand

and one, but everything else is ready to go. We're ready to go. We're ready to go with our cable partners. And all of a sudden, NBC pulls the plug League's dead. Uh, and the NFL Europe the World League, you know, two years in the US it's dead. Uh. Then the World League, which switch commissioners, it's dead. So you know, we've seen this. It seems to be a never ending list of things that will kill these leagues or at least, you know, fundamentally change

them. It's part of the deal we've we've talked on here in the theme of the episode this week is kind of die die apart, or it's from loss, it's lived lived together, die apart or whatever. And we've talked on here, you know, at this time where we had two competing leagues, right, this is kind of the the greatest chance, right for any of these to work where you have Fox owning all this, doing all that and read like we've talked all the money. Uh, now them are already

coming together. Like is this kind of the last frontier or for this time period where and like if this doesn't work, is there any circumstance you can see where this is actually pans out in the future. You know, it's going to be a while. I think that this is the attempt, you know, for probably a decade that if this doesn't work, that it will be very difficult to have real money jump back into this and fun and alternative leak. So yeah, absolutely that this probably needs to work or it's just

not going to work for a while. And you would have to look at some fundamental changes probably in the media landscape and how they're able to monetize viewers behind a television or a screen somewhere. So you'll have to see some continued evolution of how they're able to monetize that because to me, here if you're an outsider looking at this, and you know, like I said, Fox

is set up for this, it's you know, filler content. They're able to write off a lot of the things like we're the ultimate goal of these We even had been Fisher reporting even last week, like the goal is still to sell these franchises off, right, And I think three to four years

now it was originally seven years. Like if I'm sitting there like, why would I ever Like you guys can't even get through a season two see like you're you know this is a huge next step, well and you're the I think what makes it particularly challenging from an investment perspective is that as an investor, what kind of say, what kind of input are you going to have? You're always going to be out voted by Fox, So what exactly what

is your what is your control? What is your influence? Otherwise you're just giving money away in an obvious attempt to look like a local big shot and that's really the only thing that's going to be on the line there. So

I think it's hard sell unless you're willing to give up some control. It feels very much like the CFL in that regard of like, hey, I own a sports team, I'm going to own it for fifteen twenty years until I get tired of it or to the five whatever, you know, and then kind of pass it on. I just all of this, I don't know is this giving you? And I know, like you said, we live through all this, and you live through this longer than any of us

probably listening to the program here, But does this give you pause? Like maybe this isn't the right space for these leagues to try to operate, Like

maybe there does need to be kind of change here. Yeah, And you know, it's such a weird thing is that we were kind of blessed with two leagues and all these games going on and year around football for a year, and you do wonder if there was a way for these parties to come together at the very beginning and come into this past season with all of their resources dedicated to one project, if you know, maybe we'd be in a

better spot. So, you know, I'm kind of the eternal optimist here where it's like, Okay, well maybe this could still work in some way. You know, if the if the chips fall correctly. So you know, I don't know that. I think there'll be somebody else who takes a flyer on it in the future if this doesn't work out. And you know, I don't want to sound too fatalistic. We don't know if it'll work

out or not. You know, certainly it's an uphill climb. Not all the details have been worked out or at least announced yet, so you know, there's a lot that we have to see and maybe we'll come out in the next few weeks and we'll say, well, this does look a lot better. You know, they are leveraging their strengths. We'll see because we've really tried to avoid on here like Okay, it's going to be this or that, you know, because there's a million different kind of Okay, it's

going to be the XFL conference and the whatever. But whatever happens, you know, the idea of having you know, a sixteen team, you know, a combination of resources here and everyone in their market seems you know, far from whatever this is actually going to look like. Do you sense you know, for the fan base is to me. To me, it's probably eight to two people you know negative about it. The positive of Okay, this is a step back no matter what, or I hey, I have

a team in Seattle. I don't know, Like, how are you viewing kind of this edition by subtraction moving forward with whatever the look like. Well, I think you have to look at it from the perspective of both leagues. So I mean, obviously we've already talked about Redbird Capital and whether it be kind of an opportunity they saw or cold feet. It doesn't look like they were in it for the long haul. So the XFL, what's going

to be out of options sooner rather than later. You look at the USFL, there's only there's only one reason that they even listen to the XFL, And I'll let the audience figure that out. You can believe what's been said online, you can believe the corporate talk, or you can look at what's actually happening. They listened to the XFL, why all right? So they need something and so it's an opportunity for them to work together. I think

that this was probably the path forward. You know from day one that this was almost inevitable. Now it's just a lot of push and pull and we'll see which which business plan they're going to pursue or if it's a mix or you know, I think that both teams brought some things to the table, and I'm hoping that they are able to pick out the best of the bunch. I mean, and we've talked many times in the past that we like seeing football in front of crowds. It just brings an extra element to the

game and to the to the entertainment value of the television product. And so, you know, I think that the thing that gives most XFL fans pauses talk about continued hubs and games in front of next to nobody. And I guess to a degree, I don't understand the love affair with at Ohio. It's a great stadium, it's but it's not a big market, so you're only going to have a handful of thousand people there at best. Uh, it's cheap. Okay, well, so it was a local high school field

here. Why aren't we playing there? You know? There, I'm really hopeful that they will pick out the best, you know, no matter who ends up having control of this product. Yeah, and I've heard mixed you know stuff coming from you know, inside the league, outside of the league. Okay, Well, no that you know, you can look and see like there are things that we're doing better, things that they're doing better.

I mean, I I think there's an ideal world where that works. I guess to me, it's just you know, and you're an entrepreneur, right, I'm like that there there has to be some level of risk associated with starting one of these, right, And and to me, you know, like I took out a loan when I started my video company and bought cameras and everything like, and you've lived through the history of this right numerous umerous times, and this you know, people jumping in I guess, not understanding

the risk and understanding the costs. I mean, Vince McMahon was bleeding money back in twenty twenty, you know, even before COVID and everything like. Does it surprise you that this like we're so willing to jump in and maybe not even realize what the risk that we have with these leagues. To me, that's the heartening thing is that we see people people of substance, corporations of substance who are jumping into this this this weird alternative pro football universe.

When when people like Redbird Capital on Fox even make the attempt, there's something that they see, They see that potential, they see the value of building an asset. And in Fox's circumstance, you can see, you know, how ESPN is struggling with its rights fees payments, just like every broadcaster is.

They're selling out billions of dollars in rights fees. Well, Fox looks at them and says, well, if we can develop our own thing, our own thing can draw ratings and we never have to shell out rights fees for it, we have an incredible cash cow. And so you know, there was this feeling that, you know, Fox could be playing the long game here that they see that potential. What's kind of been a hitch in their plan is we saw real decline in year two in the places that matter,

and in particular the television ratings for Fox. This is a television program and television programs get canceled all the time, and we see that. We saw that happen with the first XFL and it can happen out of the blue. So you know, they've they've got to do something different and they've got to show some growth in year three. I guess I just wish that any of these and I don't even know you know the XFL and they're the wordy

behind their branding I think was more than this. But to me, a lot of these boil down to one hundred million people watch NFL football or whatever the number is. If we can get five percent of that, ten percent of that, like this is great and not really I guess understanding the other work that needs to go into that. And you know, I've said on

here like the USFL feels lazy to me. It feels like you like football here is more football and not necessarily understanding maybe you know why these fan bases have people that care about them and that you can't just Okay, Tampa didn't work this year, we're going to shut that down and we're going to bring it back later, or like with the XFL, well, Vegas didn't work, we're gonna like you still had six thousand people there every week. Like

I mean, at some point it needs to matter. It can't just be all about dollars and cents, right, And you know, you look back at the early years of the American Football League in the nineteen sixties, and if you go back and look at the Oakland Raiders attendances the first couple of years there were three thousand people in that place and so and behind the scenes, they had no money. They were being bank by the other teams,

and they weren't the only ones. What's missing, I think is that that unity of purpose that for instance, the American Football League owners had when one stumbles, there was another one there to pick them up. And so you know, we are missing that and that's I think a huge missing piece in

the spring football landscape. Its just I was just listening to First Take yesterday and they had on Adam Silver, right, the NBA commissioner, and he's talking, I guess there's I'm not the biggest NBA fan, but they're starting a new in season tournament to kind of try to build out interest before the All Star break and all that, and you know he's talking, well, we got to do this. You can't just do the one one year of

this and then hey it's getting maud. You you got to build this year and year and year and year and year the kind of give value there, And it doesn't feel like any of these alt leagues are at that point where hey, you have to come you got to come back. And it's hard because you know, the NBA has the luxury of time. They could do this for five years and really not impact the bottom line at all. All of these leagues, these all spring football leagues. They could lose hundreds and

hundreds of millions of dollars in that time. It's a different deal because they have so much riding on this, and because it's so expensive, they don't have the revenue source of the NBA. And we were just talking about if these leagues look at it as if we can even draw this tiny minuscule percentage of the NFL audience will be okay. To degree you really have to say the NFL is irrelevant to these guys. What you have to do is you

have to be in there and you have to compete against the NBA. You have to compete against the NHL, you have to compete against March Madness, you get into early season baseball depending on how let you go. So those are what you have to compete against, in addition to all the local stuff. So you know it, it's difficult in terms of a kind of transitioning here to the trademark stuff and we'll get out of here. You know,

the obviously the NSFL stuff was trademarked. You know, which is funny, right, Like I was the holding company and we kind of lived through all this and then now obviously this week the XFL registering the United Football League trademarks.

Are you, first off, are you surprised that having us even gone through all of these USFL lawsuits and everything that, you know, covering all of this the last couple of years, for the new USFL to acquire all that XFL obviously pain to bring the you know that stuff out of the bankruptcy, Like, are you surprised that they would so willingly just okay, we're

going to brand this into something new. I am a little bit surprised because of the efforts that they have put into attaining, you know, making peace with the original USFL guys. Uh for you, they've really gone to a lot of lengths to acquire and and and utilize this. They've leaned in the history now, especially in year two, they were able to do that more. Uh. Part of me, I wonder if they've seen that the demographics have skewed a little bit older and that they kind of want to get away

from that a little bit. So, Yeah, it has been a little bit surprising to me because I mean, it really derailed all of season one and kind of I think the goal that they wanted to do dealing with these

lawsuits coming in this year. It didn't do a lot for me. But again, I'm not the I'm not the demo for that, but it does just you know, the time and energy and money, like you said, and even even whatever that settlement was, it just seems weird that they would, especially for the USFL, like I get Fox and okay, Danny and

the Rock, like we bought this thing out. Okay. To me, it felt like Fox was so controlling kind of of this ip and and and steam rolled so much of that that they would give that up just as very shocking. Oh yes, and there, I mean there's still things going on where they're trying to peck that ip. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, And that's that's why it's a little bit surprising that they would change the name.

Perhaps that was the most palatable solution for their new partners potentially, or they just see a value in being able to build off a different brand, perhaps in terms of the UFL trademarks, what what you know, what is the history of that. I know that the was it the National grid Iron League. They were kind of a scammy league. They they I think, still have an outstanding trademark, but that to me isn't the bigger issue.

But to me, the MSFL was never going to work because the NFL exists, and that's not public that they've said anything, but I can imagine. And Josh Gerban, who had the report about the UFL, basically said as much, what are your thoughts of them? Is this just these are three initials that we could get control of, or like, what do you what do you make of this? We just talked about the USFL and the history there and the length that Fox went through to gain control of that ip.

This is a different deal that This is just I believe it's just a name. There's no there isn't any good feelings that exist about the old United Football League. It was such a flash in the Pan League and even even alternative football fans had a hard time finding it. So it does seem like it's just a name. It's kind of close to the last name, which is advantageous. They could do something different with it, and it really does reflect kind of a union with the XFL, So it's a good name from that

perspective. But as far as the history of it goes, there's really nothing that I believe that Fox would or would want to lean into there. Do you think that there's enough scammy stuff in the past or enough failure there associated with the more said that people are going through? So what is this? Nine to twelve was the last iteration this was played right right, and that

was that it was such a weird league that it was. It was owned principally by a guy named Bill Hambrick, and he had been a minority owner of the Oakland Invaders of the USFL years before, made like a billion dollars in Silicon Valley, but he never funded this league. So it was perpetually playing what looked like a test season for some reason, never had more than five teams in a year, played parts of four different seasons, and just

stumbled throughout. The last two seasons were abbreviated. They ended up canceling the final weeks, holding impromptu championships. They had to get on and they had to beg the players to finish out another week of the twenty twelve season,

and then ended up stiffing them all. Dennis Green, the former NFL coach, had a lawsuit outstanding for you know, not receiving his pay, and it was guy after guy after guy, and there were it was substantial money that could have back the league, but it was just never really funded.

They seem to have been banking on an NFL workstoppage and that they would get a TV contract out of that deal and somehow hold on to the TV contract after the NFL rezoom playing and they would split this huge TV contract amongst their four teams or something. I don't really understand what they were thinking, but if you're playing in the fall on Wednesday and Friday nights on obscure table channels, you're probably resigning yourself to anonymity. And that's exactly what they did.

And just to clarify here, and you can clarify as well. You know, I've seen a lot of people like, oh, does that mean they've acquired all the marks or they've acquired all the teams. I mean they've registered the UFL trademark, the United Football League trademark for a various number of you know, never mediums, right like entertainment and clothing and streaming and kind of

all those different things. But in terms of there's no other teams or anything that they're acquiring through all this, No, and I wouldn't see the value in doing so. They had some kind of flash in the pan, short term success stories in Omaha and Sacramento, maybe Hartford and Virginia Beach to some small degree, but really, at the end of the day, there that IP is probably not worth anything. It's funny you're talking here about the obscure

TV network. Hey, it's CBS Sports Network. Man, that's that's the CFLs And that was a huge step up for the UFL. They were on well, you know, they were on HD net and they were so and you had to find You had to hunt on a Wednesday or a Friday night to find these guys. And you know, especially the first year, they had this brilliant idea where every team, all four would wear the league colors.

So you had you had this black, blue, and green. Everybody was those colors, so you had to really look at the helmet to even figure out who was playing. And the crowd was no help because they were minuscule crowds everywhere, and they ended up switching venues to try to make it look better and that that didn't work at all. So it was it was a bizarre kind of circus atmosphere last thing for me and just you know,

obviously there's no connection here now more than just kind of ironic. I guess that Vince vincick Man, right when he was going to do the twenty twenty version, had mulled around right with this last to own the trademarks for that. Am I understanding that right back in twenty eighteen before he settled on the XFL. That was my understanding too, that he had looked at the United

Football League as a name for his league. You know, what's the old is new again and it's it's weird how time is a flat circle with all of this stuff and whatever, some of the things that they've gotten the equation figured out, it seems to come back again. And there was a there was a prior United Football League in the early sixties sixty one to sixty four, which was really more of a minor kind of semi pro outfit. So that these names have a way of being recycled a little over and over anything

else here. How are you just optimistic moving forward? How are you feeling one to ten here? So optimistic might be a little bit of a stretch, but you know, kind of and probably just you know, with so many fans just waiting to see, kind of hoping that that the league will actually strengthen itself, hoping that a lot of the markets get preserved, that where there has been some home games played, that you know, we're able to preserve as many of those markets as possible. That would be the ideal

thing. Interesting times here, Always something new, just when you know, I was kind of getting moored a little bit of all this and like man, just when I think I'm out, they pulled me back in and we got new, a new drama here. So Paul, I appreciate it. Like I said, with our Sports Central everything else, USFL historian and all all football history here at this point, really appreciate your time. Thank you for having me on read Good to see you again. Well we have Jamie

and I back on here from the Green Zone. I was gonna we're talking CFL football here, I will say, uh, cracking off to not a good start this season. And our boy Regina Zone, Jordan every really let me down here, at least Saskatchewan Zone, so very upset over the weekend. He missed his shootout shot. Yeah, he's a Regina guy. Ebbs former Regina pat did, was he is he fighting? Now? What is happening with Jordan Everly? He's getting in the fist of cuffs going on,

And we were about two minutes into the game. Yeah he was because we don't like mccarr because he checked McCann back in the playoffs. But yeah, every was going. They said he had some past history. I think they played together him and the guy he was fighting. But at least Connor Bdard is not the bus. He's putting in goals for the Chicago Blackhawks, so that's good. Yeah, oh yeah he is. And it's not like you have a lack of discussion about Connor Bdard in the National Hockey League either.

It's also you can't avoid it. He is. He's the guy right now in the NHL. Uh, check him out when the Blackhawks are in Seattle, check him out. Obviously. I did see his teammate was like, I think we're kind of overdoing this a little bit. I feel like that today perusing Twitter with Nathan Urk being elevated, you know, to the active roster, I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, it's like it's happening. It's happening. Here we go. Wait, his thoughts here?

So we're here. I'm really curious because obviously you're really checked in, you know, tuned into the Sascatchran market and everything, like what is Ryder Nation? Whether are their thoughts this year? Because it's been a weird season for the Riders. They're done. They're done with this team. They're done with the coaching staff, They're done with the general manager. They're done. They're done. Some people want don't even want him to make the playoffs,

that's how done they are with Then this is the second straight year. It's absolutely Groundhog's day for the rough Riders to go six and five and then lose seventh straight last year and now could lose seven straight this year if they lose to the Toronto Argonauts on Saturday. So it is a lot of frustration over where the direction of this team has gone. So I'm looking here. I have the playoff scenario, Calgary wins and Saskatchewan loses. Calgary's in Saskatchewan wins,

Calgary loses. Calgary's playing BC and you know, I mean BC has been known to kind of drop. You know, I've had my fair share of frustrating moments here, but that's a weird spot where they don't even want to make the playoffs because I do think you need some sense of accountability here after everything that's gone down. No, yeah, that's exactly what That's what people are waiting for, is pretty much the changes to happen. What's going

to happen, when's it going to happen? To just move on with what we're calling like the stink the rot of this, just to go, okay, let's move on now. Of course, there's always the chance that you never know, if someone catches lightning in a bottle and they have an unbelievable, unpredictable playoff run. But there's no way this team's going into BC and going into Winnipeg and winning football games. I just don't see much of it.

Just maybe one, but not twice. So yeah, in terms of kind of where all this you know, because obviously the Trevor Harris and everything, I mean, is it all go back to now or they're further deeper issues here going the end of the season. It's clearly deeper than just losing your quarterback. Because last year they had a quarterback, they lost seventh straight and it was you go, are they quitting on the coach or they I don't know, maybe they Okay, let's see what happens when they get rid

of A. C. Leonard and some of the bad boys. I'm trying to remember the term Craig. Craig Dickinson actually had a term he renegades or something like that on the team last year. So they like ac Les gone and Mike Adams no longer here, and of course the Garrett Marino thing. He's out to Duke Williams by Shaq Evans, he's out Cody Fajardo, Jason Moss. So they do this change over and you're thinking, Okay, that's where they put the blame the coaching staff. Everybody went, it's that's the

problem. It'll be better. They're worse. They are a worse football team than they were last year. And some of that is the quarterback. But I think it's preparation, it's emotion, it's a lot of different things that has soured the Saskatchewan rough Riders. Side note, what do you make of Cody's season in Montreal? I mean, I know he was hurt, and I mean they're still and they seem like they were hot. Now they're kind of you know, at least cleaned to second there, But were you pleasantly

surprised or what did you make? I think Cody Fajar, I think Jason Moss has done a pretty darn good job to have that team play to the strengths of an offense led by Cody Fajardo. They are this second lowest team and offensive touchdowns. Like, it's not like Cody Fajardo has led this team to second place. Cody Fajardo has been part of a team that has led them to second place. But I think it's more Jason Moss and Noel Thorpe have done a pretty darn good job on finding what they're good at, finding

how to win football games, and that's what has had Montreal. But I think Cody Fajardo definitely and Jason mosk Can definitely, you know, flex a little bit saying yeah, where you were the scapegoats in Saskatchewan, there were

deeper problems and you got what you got for Saskatchewan. I mean not to have it be a deep dive much for all podcasts here, but like this really could have been a wasted season for them, which is everything and the ownership coming in and all the changes I mean it's really remarkable here that. I mean they were second last year in the East, second this year and you know they have one game away from potentially getting to the finals there.

I mean, it could have been a lot worse for them as well if you look at Saskatchewan. Yeah, I was looking at Montreal as potentially being third or fourth in the East Division, Like when you looked at it on paper, they lost a lot of talent out of that team, A lot

of guys left, So that's what I was maybe looking at. But again, Nolthorpe's defense has been outstanding, Cody has managed the games very well, and now that they're starting to find a little bit of identity on the ground game with like Fletcher and when standback's healthy, that could be a dangerous team if they can run the ball with that core three with Cody also using his

legs come playoff time. Although beating Toronto is not going to be easy in terms of Saskatchewan here, like you said, you know, people want the wholesale changes. Farhan was on last week and like, there's right, there's not all the contracts end the same rider. They're overlapping where they're like it makes it challenging to kind of bring in fresh I'd made me next shrug, What do you I mean? I know people are asking for people's heads and

everything else, but like, what is realistically possible there? I think it is general Well, Jeremy O Day is interesting. I'm not sure the whole coaching staff could be gassed, like it's just go get done just away. You're fired by a lot of them. I think all of them are on the last year of their deals, so you can get rid of those contracts. Well, Craig Dickinson's the biggest one. He's up at the end of the year. Jeremi O Day is up at the end of the year.

If you want to go to the general manager spot. A lot of the attention is actually on the president, Craig Dickenson or Craig Reynolds, on how far up it goes and does he take anything? Do they change the president? Because when Jim Hobson was here, that was, you know, a decade of brilliance. They made it to a bunch of great cups four gray cups sorry one two lost to in pretty well ten years of Jim Hopps,

and then since that time they haven't made a great Cup. They have hosted some playoff games, but it has been all over the place on good bad uh. And there's some fans who feel they're they're saying they feel taken for granted, that's never a good thing, and they're they're talking about turning in their season tickets, not renewing, and that that's what does the talking when it gets to the president and CEO is who's spending the money and who's not?

Because I get that was my fall up question was are we at the point and I want to kind of compare this to Edmond Timberlare we at the point where if they don't do anything, it's like demonstrable damage here at the end, you know, going in the next season. Oh they're doing something they can't do any like it is. Stuff's happening. It's just a matter

of when it could be. Like we could be talking on Sunday, like if everything goes sideways, if Calgary beats PC, which I don't see happening, but if they do it and Saskatchewan loses and it's over, Yeah, we're talking Sunday Monday and changes are being made and contracts are not going to it's going to be announced as well, we will not renew the contract. We are beginning the process of finding the new head coach, potentially new a

general manager and even lesser so likelihood of a new president and CEO. Like this is going to be a deep, deep change for the rough Riders after this season? Is there? And you know, obviously swath of you know, people across the board or whatever I mean, is there like realistic? Yeah, because all I hear is, Hey, you trying to get people, you know, coach in the CFL and we got the Caps and you know everything, Like is it? Do you think there's enough qualified people out

there that bring in to kind of rebuild the writers? I think so? And I think like with Kyle Walter's contract not being renewed yet in Winnipeg, he'd be the first guy i'd call as as if you're changing the general manager, and then there's Buck Pierce, etc. Etc. You go down on trying to tie the connections on who can do Jordan mcsimmick would be somebody I'd

reach out to the BC Lions offensive coordinator. We're seeing young good coordinators and I think Ryan did would he set a good example And it doesn't even have to be a coordinator if you think it's a good, young, smart coach. And we're seeing in the National Football League too with like Mike McDaniels and some of these guys Zach Taylor who are younger, who get a year maybe not even any as a coordinator experience, but going, wow, they are

smart. And that's where I go. I would go with an offensive coach to start things off and let a defensive coordinator cuk a little bit without being the head coach, because this offense the last three years has been woeful and that's what really needs needs to That's what we'll get people in the stands scoring thirty points. That sells tickets. Have you know this? I mean,

like attendance wise this year? Is it? Because obviously we were there for Great Cup and it was a weird situation because you know, Weinnpig's there and we don't want to deal with that. But I mean it is you're talking people turning in their season tickets, but is that actually happening? Well, it will be interesting to see. We can't. We're having a hard time giving away our season tickets this weekend. We just can't. Like I'll be there for my job, but my family can't be there for you know,

sports commitments for our kids, and usually it's easy. Other people are texting the show like is anybody else having a hard time even giving away tickets? And the announced I forget what it was twenty seven thousand or something for the last home game against Hamilton, there was eighteen thousand people there, Like that was not those there's people that are definitely not using their tickets. Not when

people are, they're out of town ers. They're traveling two, three, four hours away to games, and I know it's kind of mind boggling. I know different markets are like what hell season ticket holders travel that far consistently. It's like, yeah, in Saskatchewan, a two hour drives nothing. I'll do a two hour drive there and back in the day and not even blinking high. So that's what. That's the lifestyle here. So people are

saying they don't want to spend the gas money to watch. So I'll be very interested to see and it's unfortunate because it's fan appreciation night, but I'll be interested to see how many Green seats are sitting there empty on Saturday. Yeah, that was like the Mariners there last week of the season had fan Appreciation Week, Like it was very apparent at that point we had played ourselves

out of the playoffs. I'm like, I'm not even now. I listened to that we were driving back from BC for that fun experience, you know, BC winn the peg at BC there on whatever. October Friday, was listening to Michael Ball and Luke called game was an interesting perspective having Hamilton come in and it discompletely pants the Riders, like you shouldn't kind of hap it

like that, No, it is that was bad. That was just when you had ever all the emotion of that week with George Reid, the twenty thirteen team, they inducted the first woman in the Riders Plaza of Honor, Wendy Kelly, Like they were honoring the past, they were honoring their legends, they're paying tribute. George Reed's family is there and you lay an absolute egg, like absolutely it. Craig Dickinson called it embarrassing, and it was.

It was completely embarrassing for the organization and head coach Craig Dickinson was bang on with his assessment after the game in terms of it's weird that they talk right now, we're talking like, you know, the season ticket holders and everything and health of a franchise, where like Edmonton here, you know, up into a couple of months ago was like on this tail spin and Victor Queen and everything else and Tray four and I'm like, now, I mean,

you know, Chris Jones could be like coach of the Year here with kind of this turnaround and everything, Like does that surprise you? Because like, I think in a different and obviously we're talking about it, but in the world where Edmonton maybe didn't have this dumpster fire for half the year, there's more of a spotlight on Saskatchewan and Calgary in terms of like kind of fundamental issues going on with am I surprised that Chris Jones has turned it around.

Well, just surprised that at this point, like they're looking like it's roses over there compared to what's going on in Saskatchewan in Calgary. For me, I'm surprised it took this long. We saw Chris Jones do this in Saskatchewan and he took over in twenty sixteen. He gutted the team, he brought in guys. They had a slow start in year two, but you know they were cooking. They got I think ten wins that year, and

that's where it was like, oh, what is going on? Oh and nine they made a huge er with trey Ford, Like it was a huge error on evaluating what he brought to the team. And if they would have started trey Ford week four, week five, they're in the playoffs. They're a playoff team. I truly believe that. And we're not even having a conversation about the Riders and the Calgary Stampeders trying to get to the playoffs. I think Edmonton would be a playoff team if they make that move earlier.

So there was some sort of personality conflict between the coach and the quarterback, which is unfortunate. But you have to put ego aside sometime and make sure you got the best guys out there, and trey Ford is definitely that for Edmonton. Thoughts on Calgary and just kind of the state of everything there, I mean, obviously not your direct market, but here in the West,

like because it seems like that's another there's precariousness coming up there. These are two bad teams, Calgary and Saskatchewan's like that game last week was painful to watch the two teams battling for a playoffs, but and both of them looked like they were at points disinterested in winning the football game and making bad decisions. So I've been calling it a snails race for third between these two sides. So I I still think the Riders make the playoffs. I do.

I think the most likely scenario is Calgary loses both their games, Saskatchewan loses their game, and Saskatchewan still gets in the playoffs, like crazy, Like since Labor Day weekend, when Calgary and Saskatchewan both won at home. Calgary beat Edmonton, Saskatchewan beats Winnipeg. Their combined records are one and nine for Calgary and Saskatchewan. Like that is unbelievable. How poor these two teams have

played down the stretch. As I was listening that I was film in because I was like Labor Day and I was booked to film some festival and so I'm literally outside. I got because it's so hard to watch games in America now, like the you know, I thought the CFL plus thing was great. People told me the CFL plus things great. No. Yeah, if I'm available for three hours uninterrupted in the exact time the game on, it's

great. But if you have to if you have anything else in your life going on in that specific time, you can never you know, God forbid, I watch a game an hour later on demand or whatever. But I'm sitting there, I'm listening to the CFL. Plus, I got my headphone in. I'm filming, and I'm listening to you know, Saskatchwan that crazy game, right, the crazy the yeah, the labor what they call the

Labor Day Classic game. Yeah, yeah, and just to see, like, because we're doing our little Monday recap shows now we're like, man, like, you know, Saskatchewan's really got some life and dog Gallon like this feels like and I just completely lost from there. Do you do you do you like doll gall going forward? I mean, do you think he's a solution going in the next year? I think there's the quarterback spot is interesting.

Clearly it's no longer Mason Fine or they'd make the or Mason Fine would be back in because Jake Dolegala has not been that great over the last couple of weeks. So clearly it's Jake Doligala. What do you do next year with Trevor Harris if he can play, if he's healthy. I would think whoever's coming in would want a veteran coach. And then do you have Jake

Dolegala's number two and just change out the quarterbacks behind him. I don't think a rebuild you go in with Jake dolagalah or you're running into a potential of a Taylor Cornelia situation where you're oh to nine to start a season. You're in desperation mode, which is no way to start anew But I still think I would like to see Jake Dolegala with different coaching. That's I want to see him with a QB coach and an offensive coordinator who have been there,

done that. Kelly, Jeff free fell into the job because all these other more qualified coaches turned them down. And that's where it's almost okay, Kelly, it's yours and it hasn't been a wow at all. So and I watched drills. I watched practice drills of the quarterbacks, and I was like, they don't work on footwork really and stuff like that, or like I

remember watching Jason Moss, I remember watching Kahari Jones. Watching those guys work quarterbacks and the drills they do and there looks more polished, and that's what I haven't seen in Saskatchewan this year. So I would really like to see who gets brought in and what kind of QB tutelage Jake Dolagala can get because I'm not sure he's been gotten this full support over the last two years.

It's interesting. I mean, I think, you know, if he you know, it's one of those things like if he was your choice, he would have just started him. You know, you wouldn't have gotten it done at Trevor Harris and kind of all that stuff, you know, because it was right going into this season, people didn't want to go Saskatchwan right because

you were still having Digginson and everything. But now you think it'd be if you could come in and make everything our own, right, it like Saskatchew would be a very appealing place for a new head coach, I would think.

So I would think if it's like, oh, you got a veteran quarterback under contract, that's a good start, because you don't want you go into a position you're like, who's the quarterback, Like right now it's Trevor Harris if he's healthy and you have some potential behind him, and I think there's a great core of Canadians. I think jerem Oda has done a good job of drafting and bringing in Canadians, Like there's a good enough group here that you can definitely look at and go, oh yeah, I could make

this work and probably do a quicker turnaround than a complete overhaul and have it be a two or three year plan so to speak, in terms of just kind of rounding out the conversation here before we go about the West. Just curious your thoughts on the kind of the BC Winnipeg of it all. I

you know, I wanted to be at that game. I kind of thought that was BC season and you know, not having the opportunity to be first and having to go into Winnipeg, Like, to me, that was and it was funny because I think they had done a really good job hyping that game up for local people because I'm sitting there and people are like, oh, like are they out now? Like what does this mean? Well? No, but like you know it kind of it kind of feels that way.

What do you make of that and just kind of what is likely BC in some regard going into Winnipeg and playing in the West. I I like the BC Lions. I like this matchup. Clearly, they match up well against each other. There's win, one blowout, and then another blowout and then a really good close game that Winnipeg count came back to win, which shows, Yeah, the BC Lions can win a football game, and they

have one in Winnipeg, so they have that belief in them. It's just whether or not Vernon Adams can keep the ball safe and that BC lines defense needs to get better. They've been allowing a lot of points recently, like that. At the start of the season. You don't remember it was like they were allowing less than one touchdown a game. They were dominant. Now I think they're averaging almost thirty points per game allowed. So that's the that's

the big issue. If BC cleans up their defense and Ryan Phillips gets that crew anywhere close to what they were at the start of the season, I think the BC Lions could be in the Great Cup. Yeah, I mean they would have done that boys, and then they were getting that fifty burgers

and I think a minute joke on to think about it. Last thing for me, like you know, and you've done this, you know clearly a lot longer than I've been involved in the space like, you know, we talked Saskatchewan Calgary, right, Ottawa's got its own bag of issues over there. How are you feeling, like just stated the CFL here, I mean for the most part, what you know, six five six teams feeling decent? Like, how do you just kind of rate the space? He remember

going on? Well, I like that we've seen increased attendance in Toronto, a bit of an uptick in other markets as well. Of course, Ottawa is going to be down. It's been back to back to back bad years, like they're in the Great Cup in twenty eighteen. It's just gone south since that time. But I think that's a fan base you can win back with wins. Clearly they'll show up, so they'll have some work to do this offseason. Saskatchewan fans. If they get to nine and nine next year,

they'll have a good group of fans coming back to the stadium. So overall, I think the CFL has improved. The ratings are up or have been up from last year. I think there's growing interest, which I think all culminates from just being around again. That lost season was I think it was a bad call. I think you needed to play even if it was an eight week season something to exist. A lot of people were turned off by the so I think it's back to normal, back to eighteen weeks all

that stuff for these teams. I'm interested to see how the Saturday playoff games go rather than playing on Sunday. Ratings wise, it's a bit of a change other than the Gray Couple still be playing on Sunday, of course, But all in all, I think there's a lot of positive signs. Unfortunately, Edmonton Ottawa have not been good attendance wise, but again, if trey

Ford lights some fire in Edmonton, those fans will come back. I think we did the math that Toronto has more wins this season than Odawas had since their Gray Cup season. I think is what it was with fourteen or whatever review combined the season. Yeah, the Saturday thing, yeah, I got the schedule for the media staff for the CFL and they're like, everything shifted up. I'm like, well, this is lovely for people coming in and trying to you know, coming from out of town. Everything shifted up,

so we'll see. I had complaints about that, and then I found out today the dang bar I was going to use to do our show TSM rented it out the whole weekend, so now I got to like pivoting on that. So TSN is getting in getting into the biz here, So still step to figure out that way. But anything else from you, I appreciate your time. No, it's always fun. I can't wait to see how this all plays out in Saskatchewan offseason. And yeah, do you have any picks?

Who are are we hanging out in Hamilton again? Really we're there, so if you're I didn't know if you Yeah, we'll be there. Tim Bains just told me he's in Green Day put him over the top, and we've got our whole we have our whole little Monday recap show we've been doing coming up there. So it'll be fun. Yeah, you're certainly invited. I think I have I think I have a plan of where we're going to go live so it'll be convenient. And yeah, of course you're welcome to

Well, I can't I can't wait to hang out again. Always nice to to see you guys at Great Cup And uh, what do you what do you think? I think? Do you know? Here's my way out? I will have the obvious prediction Toronto, Winnipeg and a rematch, that's boring. My what more way out there prediction is last week's game was a Great Cup preview BC Lions and the Hamilton Tiger Cats. Well, no, I

like that. I was just gonna say, because so Jason Hassi, our co hosts on the recout you he's a tie Cats fan, and I'm obviously in America's CFL team here, and so I think that that would be truly what unite all the you know, unite both countries and all that. But I would love to see, like Montreal was so close to getting there, right and it was like the missfield goal, right, I'm like fever dream

now. I've had an XFL in the USFL season in between, like whatever happened with that, But we'd love to see, you know, Cody in there. But I think Toronto. I just yeah, if it's Toronto Winnipeg again, it's just hard. But at least Toronto it feels a little fresh because you just from last year. So if Cody Fajardo is makes it to the Great Cup Saskatchewan, I don't know what we'll do with ourselves because it was get him out of here last year, like he is terrible, Get

him out and if he makes a great cup. He he has a lot of breaking rights over the Saskatchewan rough Riders, and good on him if he does. I was whatever the misfield or whatever away from a Gary Stern would have been live on our show for you. I had it, and his word would have been their great come. I think I could. I think I could get Cody on Saturday before. I think we could get Cody on if he if this works out, but otherwise fever dream Chack. Kelly's already

followed me on Twitter, So I think that ship has sailed. But Jamie, I appreciate it. Yeah, we'll see you soon. Making time here at night and everything else that means a lot, Yeah, no problem. Read I was appreciate it. Can't wait to see in Hamilton. Well, I appreciate it. Making time today. I'm outside my neighbor. I'm exporting

wedding video edits right now. My neighbor's cutting tiles. So hopefully this works out. We have gored back here, you know, Crown good, I Nation everything else. How are you, sir? I'm good. It looks like the weather in your neck of the woods is a heck of a lot better than the weather in mind, so well, we're similar times and similar all that going on there. We got West Coast represent this week. Yes, absolutely, I'm in the soggy version of the West Coast, so Northwest

Coast, well, I appreciate BC Lions here today. I want to get your thoughts on that. We're talking CFL week twenty everything else, Uh, you know, bird's eye view. What do you make of the season thus far? I know, didn't we saw you in one of the games? Was it last year or it all kind of blurs together here? But what have you made of CFL twenty twenty three. I mean, I think it's

been a good year. I'm pretty biased out here on the West Coast, you know, like the the the storyline going into the season was how are the Lions gonna respond to the loss of Nathan Rourke and was Vernon Adams gonna be able to steal the steer the ship? And I think that that's been answered with the resounding yes. Adams is squarely in the middle of the MP

conversation. I think I think he's probably a little bit of an underdog behind Claro's, but he's in that conversation, which tells you, how about how the year's gone. So you know, from a biased perspective out here on the West Coast, it's been a phenomenal season and what I think has been interesting. You know, Winnipeg and Toronto have been kind of the top of

the heap in both conferences for the last couple of years. But some of the other like traditional powerhouses like Calary for example, is sketching and Cline just make the playoffs right now? You know, Saskatchewan's right on that bar as

well. Uh, the phenomenal turnaround of the Evonton Elks once they finally started playing trade Ford Like, There's been some really great storylines carrying on throughout the year that I think have certainly drawn my interest even more so than they would in a normal year, because I think there's been a lot of intriguing and a lot of excitement. What I don't get and I agree with you, Vernon has been phenomenal. That was kind of my biggest question mark going into

this year. So if he's been good except for that Toronto game, right, you know, everyone kind of lays a you know, even Jalen Hurts lay the egg here last weekend, you know for the Eagles. But what is the Lions issue then, I mean, I was there for the Winnipeg game. They've dropped some of these very winnable games against Hambleton, Like what

did you what is their issue right now? If it's not Vernon. I mean, I think there's a there's a couple of things with regards to the Winnipeg games, like I don't want to give them a pass, but you know that that Winnipeg game ends with them like losing out on a couple of pretty key crucial breaks. You know, Vernon Adams probably has that critical first down with two minutes left in that game that would have a lot of them

to basically ice it, and that they don't get that call. And we don't really need to spend a lot of time getting into the merits of that, but that that ends up really being a backbreaker for them. Uh. And then the previous two games against Winnipeg as well, like and and don't forget too that the Lions had, you know, had Donnie I think was Rhyme's. Had Donnie Grimes had the audacity and the and the wherewithal to hit the ground right at the end of regulation, then Lions almost certainly win that

given the season that Sean White has had. Now, I don't blame him for that, but again it circumstantially. They caught a couple of pretty bad breaks in that fourth quarter along the way to blowing that big lead against Winnipeg and then the previous two games Winnipeg in Winnipeg. Don't forget, we're not just in Winnipeg, but the Lions, and both of them are on the back end of a short week, coming off of a Sunday game and a

Saturday game, with the second one Winnipeg coming off of a bye. Like these odds were very much stacked against them in that so they've run into some misfortune with Winnipeg in particular this year in terms of their shortcomings, their issues. Their ability to run the football effectively has been an issue all season long.

They've been a very one dimensional offense. You know, they lose their left guard early in the season to what's probably a career threatening injury unfortunately, or health condition, I guess I should say, And you know, so they've been working with backups on the offensive line pretty much the entire season, so they do have that as maybe a bit of an excuse working for them.

But what has been interesting watching the team is. I feel like I have seen some explosion out of the running game, but they just haven't been

able to do so consistently. Like I like Smoke Azelle, I liked Sean Shivers when he was in earlier in the season, and I and you know, they've they've been rotating a couple other names in there as well, and you've seen flashes, but they just have not been able to do it consistently, and when it has been needed the most, like in the second half of that Winnipeg game, where they needed to try and run the clock the

salt the game away, they just weren't effectively able to do that. I just don't get if you're if you're the BC Lions and you know all roads go through Winnipeg here regardless, and you know home field advantage otherwise like you're gonna play Winnipeg, I just that wouldn't be you know, we obviously we don't hang on the butler and you know, Myzelle, like I said, how like you said, has been good, but this if you know that

that's your hurdle. I guess I'm just surprised that there wasn't more emphasis because you know, Vernon slinging that, like, you know, the air game is not the problem right now. Yeah, I mean, I do think that salary constraints dictated a few of those decisions, right I think Butler is a pretty obvious salary constraint decision. You know that you brought in Adams last your part ways through the year, and you kind of had him on the cheap, and then all of a sudden you now had to pay him like

you're starting quarterback going into this season. You know that inflates that value significantly. And they've got a couple of other big ticket guys as well. You know, if you're going to have, like, let's face it, they've got probably the most talented receiving core in the entire league. But if you're going to have that intact with established guys across the board, you know,

those guys all come at a pretty good ticket. So I think salary constraints have been a part of it. And in terms of bigger issues with the team as well, Like I have been pretty openly critical of Rick Campbell's game management, his personnel management is outstanding. He's one of the best players coaches in the entire league. I would say but I have been very critical of his game management, his use of challenges, his management of clocks and timeout,

and some of his decisions to kick field goals. I do think that at the margins that has hurt this team at times as well, and so I'm hopeful it doesn't come back to bite them in when things matter the most. I don't want to look too far ahead here because obviously we're still optimistic for the season. BC hosting next year, right, great cup. I feel like we're in a window right now. Are we in the middle of a window? Is a window close? Like, where do you view the

BC right now? Well, I think they're squarely in the middle of the window, and that that's in large part because of Vernon Adams. Now, Adams has his shortcomings, but he's a guy who's who's in the prime of his career. If and now you're insulated from if Nathan Mark sticks in the NFL, it never comes back, and that that is a real change in fortunes from at the outside of the season where it was. Man Hopefully the Adams can be a decent stop gap. But you know, we don't know

how we're going to react to losing. You know, the best quarterback that's been in this league in a decade. You know, it's tough to tough to bounce back from that, and so you know, you put that into perspective. I think the Lions have done a phenomenal job of not just bouncing back from that, but thriving despite that. This team, it isn't the same as Nathan Murk's team last year, but it doesn't look that different from nathan Orks team last year. And that's that's full credit to that, you

know, the players on the field and the staff involved. I do still like the Lions answers, especially given those circumstantial things I talked about when playing Winnipeg. But the reality of the matter is that, barring something completely miraculous working in the Lion's favor the last couple weeks here, you put yourself in a position where you're gonna have to win that game in Winnipeg to get through the Great Cup. That's I mean to say, that's never easies and understatement,

that's a really, really toll task to ask. And it's Winnipeg. They've cut their teeth. They're not just a good talented team. They know how to win in this league, and so you know, the odds are

against them to get through to the Great Cup. But that being said, you have as explosive an offense as they have, and you can win any game, you know, and Ryan Phillips has shown the ability to at least keep the lid on even the best offenses in this league, if not shut them down entirely, and so it very well could all come together for them.

It's remarkable. Yeah, Vernon, I don't want to kind of pooh pooh what he's done in the last couple of years where it certainly feels like a comeback kind of you know, you could give a comeback player reward right now. I do Vernon has any fear that I had going into the season. And believe me, like I you know, I love Vernon as a person and you know from local here in Northwest guy. But talk about just a way to kind of change the narrative on that you were talking about him

being the underdog in the MP race. If the Toronto game doesn't happen, is he more up there? I mean, what what do you think it is? Is it dis because Claros and the Bombers are that much more dominant. I mean, I think the head to heads work against him fairly or otherwise, right, and and he in going up against zac Galleros, he's zero to three. And to be honest, I think for a lot of

people that conversation begins and ends there the Toronto. The adding in the numbers of that Toronto implosion probably don't help as well, especially given that you can now make the argument that you know, in the games against the two best teams in the league, or at least the two other best teams in the league, he's he's really struggled and he's really made hay against the lesser lights

of this league. And so you could make that case if you were making that against him, and I suspect that's probably what's going to sway a lot of voters at this point in terms of the you know, we talked the window for BC here in terms of being the championship team Winnipeg. Are you viewing them near the end of that or you know, we've had people on the show for weeks and Okay, the defense is getting the old or not

as dominant this year. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think the one guy that really gives you hope for the future and some pause in that take, is Brady olivera olvera still in his mid twenties. You know, he's got a lot of good years ahead of him. You know, it's not fair to anybody to set the bar at Andrew Harris, but if he has anything resembling in Andrew Harris' career, you got a lot of years

of elite production potentially left in him. And certainly, if you set that old thirty year old mark that running backs often get, well, you still got a handful of years before you hit that, So that gives you some hope for the future. You know, quarterback long Jevity is as good as ever. I think Klaris has a lot of years left in him. I do think they'll have to reload on the defense eventually, Lea. But you know, I look at some of the key guys on that defense, Adam

bak Hill, for example. One of the one of the things that's been the thing with Big Hill since he's been in the league is that he is as notorious of a diligent guy that takes care of his body in every sense of the word as anybody in the league. And so if anybody's gonna be set up to have longevity at a position like like linebacker. It's a guy like Adam bake Hill who just who lives to take care of his body, you know, and to take best care of himself. So I'm no,

I'm not by any means rushing to bury the Winnipeg Boo Bombers yet. I but you're right there are They are a little bit older, and I think, you know, the changing of the guard is going to be inevitable eventually. And frankly, the run of success they've had in the Western Conference has been pretty unprecedented for them, uh in the last handful of years. So it hasn't translated into a into a rash of Great Cup victories like they may

have expected. But within the Western Conference they've been as dominant as anybody we've seen in a long time in this league. So that I think that Air the Lions are very close to challenging them now. I think that era is

slowly coming to an end, but they are far from dead yet. It's just frustrated not to do you know too much your BC Winnipeg, But you know, you look and I think we stack up pretty well across the board, except, like you said, kind of that key running back and you know, my Zell not really you know, being fine, and that's maybe

not even like relying too much on that when we need to. It's just it is frustrating because you feel like you could doing that kind of the apples apples comparison right now for sure, and watching the games between the two of them might find really fun because there's there's two real different personalities on offense.

Right on offense, Winnipeg just wants to bludgeon you. They just they just want to keep chipping away you constantly, you know, keep keep throwing punches and just bit by bit wear you down, which is what you kind of saw in that last game between the two of them. BC, on the flip side, is much more of an explosive offense that's gonna that's looking for those explosion plays that are going to just rock you to your core, and they are very capable of doing that. And so I find that to be

a really fun class of styles watching the two teams compete. Ultimately, I think the difference between the two of them comes down to whether the pass rushes

are effective on either side. You know, the Lions matchw Betts has had obviously an incredible season but the Lion's pass rush has been a little hit and miss, you know, and even catching the break with Patty Neufeld being out for the last game against Winnipeg, the Lions when it mattered most, you know, they created a turnover in the second half, huge one, but when it came down to it in the fourth quarter, they weren't able to

get Koalaro's off his spot and off of his reads when they needed to most. And so that I think is going to be one of the keys for the Lions coming down the stretch and against these elite opponents. Is I'm not worried about their secondary. I'm worried about whether their front Steven can consistently harass the opposition and get them out of their game plan. Is there a world where Calgary beats BC here on Friday? I think I got the email to

do with the blackout, blackout game. We talk about this game all the Yeah, I think there's a world where Calgary beats BC, but I don't expect them to. But there's definitely a world where Calary beats PC. Like, let's all forget Calgary is fighting for their lives here and while BC theoretically still has a chance at first place. There's like, I have a really hard time seeing Winnipeg with a chance to lock down first PA first place lose

to a an eliminated Edmonton L's team. Now, stranger things have definitely happened, but you know that that doesn't feel like a likely scenario. So I don't know the Lions are going to go into this with that that that real one hundred and ten percent type edge, whereas Calgary is, and that's kind of an intangible quality that can level the playing field, despite the fact that I am not super impressed with Calgary's roster as currently stands. So yeah,

I think the Lions are the more talented team. You know, it's it's the last game of the season for them. They want to finish out strong,

all that kind of good stuff. But the other thing that looms here too is it's the potential for a rematch in the Western semi as well, right, And so there's also that added element of the Lions maybe potentially being a little bit cagy and playing some things a little closer to the vest, knowing that you know, the downside is pretty minimal for them in losing this game, and they and they may potentially have to have this team again when

it matters most. So that element is also a play, which I know a lot people aren't thinking that way, but with the Lions having a buy next week like that, that's how they're thinking. So it's I think that's an interesting dynamic to it. Too. Bigger disappointment this year at Calgary or

a Saskatchewan, I would say Saskatchewan. I personally did not necessarily have that high of an expectation for Calgary. I know that they'd made the decision that Jake Jake Mayor was their guy and they were moving on from bo Levi. But Mayor, like Mayor, showed competence last year, but he didn't really show more than that. And if you looked at the surrounding cast of characters, I didn't necessarily, as I kind of alluded to before, I didn't

necessarily see what I thought was an exceptionally talented roster around him. I don't think it's one of the stronger rosters in the league if we're being honest. Saskatchewan, on the other hand, you can you can give them the quarterback injury thing, and that I think is a fair a fair uh excuse to give them, but you know it's Saskatchewan. Expectations are always high in Saskatchewan. Uh, They've gone through a pretty significant for them at least drought at

this point in time in terms of having sustained success. You know, this is not the Saskatchewan rough Riders of our father's era that went decades without winning Great Cups and that was just the reality of it. You know, the modern rough Riders have an expectation to be competing for Great Cups every single year and so for them not to I mean realistically not to come anywhere near that. You know that this is a below five hundred team. You know that's

that's not a Great Cup contender. And if they back into the playoffs, great for them. But you know that the Sea of Green is not pleased with not having even a single playoff game to go cheer for. So I would say that they're the bigger disappointment all in all in terms of Edmonton here taking on whether we have right weather peg, A lot of momentum here kind

of coming out and we've joked on here and there. You start trade forward here maybe week four and we're in the completely different But I are you excited for the Elks moving forward optimistic, what adjective would you use? Well, the big elephant in the room for me is Chris Jones. He's making a ton of money. I don't think you can get rid of him logistically, but I don't know that he's shown the ability. He's a great in game schemer, I don't know that he's shown the ability to He's kind of the

opposite of Rick Campbell in a lot of ways. Right. This guy can draw the heck out of a defense. He's a good schemer that way, a great game planner, but the way that he manages personnel is not effective. It's just not he has thrown in the past. He's thrown big money at guys that are over the hill, that have made minimal impact. He has stuck with guys that anybody with working pair of eyes can see or not

getting the job done for far too long. I think there's a legitimate argument that his decision at quarterback is the singular reason that they're not in the playoff team this year. So I think that's the leoming question for them. Trade Ford, I'm fully bored the trade Ford bandwagon. You see a creator like that, so long as he stays healthy. I think that that's a really exciting player in this league and a guy that can get things done. Like

he gives me. He kind of gives me Damon Allen vibes in the way that he plays. I wouldn't say he has the arm strength that Damon Allen did his peak, but that's the kind of vibe that I get from him. And I mean, as as Edmonton fans know well as anybody Damon and Allen was an incredibly successful player in this league. So having that piece in place gives you reason for optimism for sure. For sure, for sure, But I question whether Chris Jones is going to be able to put it all

together because so far, as a head coach he hasn't. As a coordinator he has, as a head coach he has not. And and so that's where I wonder about things, because his tenure as a head coach, whether in Saskatchewan or here in Edmonton, has been marred by questionable personnel decisions, has been marred by at times controversy. It hasn't been great, and I just don't know if he's the guy to get that job done. It's curious, like, do you give him credit for finally coming around on Trey Ford

or do we hold that against him that took him half the season? Like where does that line moving forward? A little? Both? A little both, right, Like I do give him credit and and you know we need to, I think understand his context, which is that you know, he's a guy from Tennessee and you know his his background. His context is he

is an American guy through and through. And there are some you know, some biases pup to past when that's your background, right, you know, you see a guy like Cornelius, Well, Cornelius went to Oklahoma State, and if you're Chris Jones, you're looking at that being like, okay, well, I know Oklahoma State. Goods cool, they play some really good

ball. This kid must play some really good ball. It defies logic to look at two players and then look at the other player and go, okay, well I got a small kid that went to Waterloo which I couldn't even point out on a map of Waterloos and and start him over Taylor Cornelius who went to Oklahoma State. Right like that, So I do give him a little bit of credit for eventually coming around on that. But that being said, what were you looking at during training camp and in practice and during the

first what was it seven games? I think that Cornelius started something like that, is like, how did it take you seven games to look at this and go this isn't working? And at some point in time too, when you're owing whatever own eight of the gate, like, that's what it took you to finally make a change, holy smokes man, Like you waited until you were already out of the playoffs to make the change. And it felt like for a good month that the only thing keeping Corneyliss in the job was

your stubbornness and insisting that you got it right initially. And so there's two sides to the coin with that, because I don't want to not give him any credit, but at the same time, I don't want to go and praise him and say, oh, well he gave a Canadian quarterback a chance. That's awesome. Well let's be a little bit more critical about the context around that as well, because I think we need to be fair. We also need to be fair that way in terms of just talking to East here

real quick before we get out, who do you have you know? For the semis al Letts have been a little bit more of a roller coaster. Hamilton coming on strong here, What do you make? I like the ceiling for Hamilton better than Montreal, But what I've seen when you see those East on East matchups, Montreal has has kind of owned aside from Toronto, has owned the rest of the East. Like it's been a pretty clear cut second

best team in that vision. And you know, Cody Fajardo, as long as he can avoid throwing interceptions, which has been a pretty big question around him this year, But as long as he can avoid throwing interceptions, you know, Montreal has spent most of those games kind of in command of it. Hamilton's been kind of an enigma this year. Like I expected them to

be better and pretty squarely in the thick of that race. Maybe not quite with the Argonauts, but but you know, comfortably right in behind them, and it just hasn't quite worked out that way. You know, ver Londo Steinauer, once one of the rising stars of this league, that stars dimmed pretty significantly at this point in time. They The quarterback question is is interesting, like it appears that they're trying to go with the two quarterback system right

now. It's split time. I don't know how effective that's going to be. It has worked in some cases before, but it's pretty rare where two quarterback systems work effectively for a team. It's usually an indication that you don't love either quarterback. And given that you just went out and acquired believe I Mitchell this offseason to settle that question, that's not really where you want to be. But I was really impressed with the way they hung it against BC.

You know, they lost, they lost on a last second field goal in that game, but I thought for most of the second half of that game they were the better team of the two. So you know, that's that's them playing legitimate playoff caliber football, and if they can keep that up then maybe they can make a go of it. It'll be an interesting matchup. And in Montreal, I would say too, like their venue isn't necessarily

the most hostile environment to go into him winning the league either. Yeah, yeah, so I I think it's a winnable game for the road team. But I also like what Montreal has done this year when they've been challenged within their conference. They've looked pretty in control of those games throughout. I like what they're doing on defense. I really like Austin Mack and I think that if they you know, going going with the right mindset, that they should

be good. But Hamilton's really come on, like you said, and so I think there's a lot more question marks around the tire Cap'. But you know, I talked about roster talent before. I do think through and through the tire Cats probably are the more talented roster if they can piece it all together. Last question here for me. You know, Ottawa disappointing, obviously injury stuff, disappointing last year, obviously injury stuff like disappointment, what do

you make going forward? Here? We write this season off, like, what do you do from here? Because it's been a long time before they've seen any success. I mean, I think you, I think you write this season off. But I do think that you take your critical review of Bob Diyce and his staff and decide whether he's the guy moving forward. I didn't love he sounds like he's a very well respected guy and and uh, you know, a good tach, good players coach and that kind of stuff.

And but I I just given the way the previous era in Ottawa went,

I was a little surprised that they hired from within. There's also been some rumblings that the level of financial investment in this roster has not really been up to par with the rest of the league as well, and that's something that I think OSEEG and the ownership group is going to have to take a hard look in the mirror and review because I wonder if and this is purely me spitball, I don't have insider information here, but I do wonder if

there's maybe a little bit of complacency selling in from OSEEG and that in the Red Blacks era, they've managed to carve out a pretty darn good thing in Ottawa. That venue is excellent, the fan base is really supportive. They have a great atmosphere pretty much all the time, and they've tested it with not putting great teams on the field last couple of years and it's held up reasonably well. But I don't know how much further they can push it.

I think they really need to buckle down and get things figured out. I think they thought that they were doing that by bringing in a guy like Jeremiah Masoli to kind of carry the load, but that didn't work out. I don't know if he'll be able to come back and help them out next year either, So they kind of have to get back to the drawing board. But the thing that's very clear with Ottawa is that, you know, once Masoli was out, it was kind of exposed that this roster's without him probably

the worst in the league, and they really need to address that. And that's not that doesn't have to cost you a lot of money, but you have to invest in things like effective scouting and the amateur draft and stuff like

that and get more squeezed more out of that stone. If you're going to make it, go of it. They're certainly capable of doing so, but I I don't know if that level of desperation seems to be there to the extent that it would be in other markets after consecutive seasons like the like the Red Blocks have had blast a couple of years, and so I wonder how

quickly that'll change. Well, I appreciate that. I like that good insights there, because you know, I get kind of different opinions on that because it's like, oh, Sean Berg and you know, so it's good to hear that. I appreciate it taking time here in the middle of work and everything else. And that really makes I appreciate it, and that we'll hope that the Lions here or whatever ends up with that they can they can go

in here a little. I kind of felt like that was the end of the season here a couple of weeks ago, but we'll see a fingers crossed Yeah, we'll see that that was That was a tough one to lose. But hey, they bounce back and a tough road game last week. You know they're still fighting. I am very confident they'll end up in Winnipeg for

that Western Final. I'm not super confident they'll get through that, but I'm gonna tune in to see so Gord, thanks again, appreciate it, of course you take care man, really appreciate all of our guests for coming on

today. Paul Reese is always making himself available with all the other work he does, tracking all these alternative football leagues, running our sports Central, and his family everything else means a lot. And then, like I said, Jamie and I taking time after work looking forward to seeing him up in Hamilton here for the Great Cup in just a few weeks. And then Gord Randall is always making time a crown Ger that ooundation all of that, Jim Ullan

and our friends, Mike Cogan everyone over there. Super appreciate Gord with that and working on getting our location solidified for our great Cup show. Can you believe TSN that we were at the George Hamilton two years ago across the street from the convention Center, almost like the perfect location to do a live show. Call them up TSN right, the entire venue, the entire weekend, So hopefully that means we'll have friends nearby we can bring them on the program

as well. But getting all that figured out for our CFL breakup show here coming up on November eighteenth, just about a month away. Like I said, like and subscribe. Hope you guys enjoy should be news coming here soon. Lots of stuff happening, swirling hearing, lots of rumors with his XFL usfl UFL United football stuff, So make sure you're subscribed. Like I said, stay tuned and we'll see you next time. Have a good weekend. Thanks,