They're literally just putting more and more of the best collateral humanities ever known on their balance sheet. Most people in traditional media they can't explain to you what micro Strategy is even doing.
They may not even appreciate.
Everybody wants to pay their bills and get ahead and provide a great future for themselves and their family. Back in the day when people were stockpiling gold, there were companies that did that. The most successful event in England became the Bicker of England.
The very nature of the business is to leverage it. Most of them are trying to earn more bitcoin per share. But if you don't understand what the target is, then how do you really value? Do you find most investors have a hard time trying to figure that out. I mean, all right, well, let's just talk about the talk of the town here, not you, even though you are the
talk of the town, being the bitcoin tratury space. You've obviously started a couple of shows talking about it, sort of rose to fame, sort of with sort of the micro Strategy True North kind of group, if you will. So let's talk about that. Let's start with, first of all, what do you see as the difference between companies that put bitcoin on the balance sheet versus bitcoin treasury strategy companies.
Well, I think you kind of just made the differentiation, which is like, you can just put bitcoin on your balance sheet, right, you have cash coming in, you don't need all of it. You can buy some bitcoin, it's on your balance sheet. That's one strategy as opposed to really using the capital markets, engaging the capital markets, and issuing additional equity, issuing debt, issuing other instruments like preferred stock, to really aggressively build that bitcoin treasury on your balance sheet.
So until this conference, I feel like I just kept kind of saying in different interviews that you can just have to coron the balance sheet, or you can do the lbe leverage bitcoin equity strategy or engaging the capital markets, however you want to say it, being more aggressive. Some people don't like the word playbook, but the micro strategy playbook, like that's the strategy. But how else are you going
to differentiate? And it was really just maybe different operating businesses, like we're a healthcare company, that's the operating business, or
we're a BIAI, that's our operating business. And I think what we saw this week was what Matt Cole said with alpha and beta of like actually trying to not just do the capital markets activity, but almost in a hedge fund sort of operating style, go identify other ways to buy bitcoin or basically arbitrage your way into more bitcoin through those opportunities, and that could be the business. And now I'm hearing conversations of especially as they pop
up in other international markets. I mean, if you can only go to finance or a startup in a certain jurisdiction, maybe that bitcoin treasury company can have a different, differentiated operating business by launching an OTC desk or doing structured products, like just having an operating business that makes sense for that market and provides those products and services, but as importantly, keep it bitcoin branded, in the same way that Metaplanet
now is going to do the Metaplanet bitcoin hotel instead of just we have one hotel. I've got to keep it on brand and keep it bitcoin.
So then companies that are putting bitcoin on the balance sheet not so attractive, like cool, we have money, you have a balance sheet, that money's parked in different things. You put it in bitcoin, oh well, versus leveraging the ballot sheet and the business the revenue of the business to then engineer more bitcoin. That's the big differentiator. What would you say is the biggest misconception most investors have when taken and look at these types of companies.
I mean most people in traditional media, whether it's CNBC or beyond. I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular. They probably couldn't even pick on them all. They can't
explain to you what micro Strategy is even doing. They may not even appreciate bitcoin, and so I think it's really there's so many different doors that you can come into, whether it's the bitcoin door, or whether it's you know, somebody tells their buddy, Hey, there's this mstr metaplant sort of stock that's just going vertical during certain periods of time, right, not financial advice, and they're like, oh right, it's everybody
wants to make money. Everybody wants to pay their bills and get ahead and provide a great future for themselves and their family. So I just think we're that early that even talking to some of the employees and executives at game Stop at not steak and Shake, No, it is steak and Shake.
A couple hours ago, I was saying.
One of the places in New York that does burgers, but it's not Steak and Shake.
I was getting all mixed up.
But they are doing these announcements, but internally, I don't think they really expected, especially Steak and Shake, like such
a reception, such a loyal audience. And I mean they're just like saying what every corporate executive has said, which makes a lot of sense that hey, it's been overwhelming support, you know, but if you are not already kind of familiar with that appreciative of bitcoin as the asset, you probably weren't expecting that, And so you're kind of scrambling from a all sorts of different perspectives, whether it's operational or media investor relations.
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of like a traditional investor trying to understand what's going on in this big renchursery strategy space and sort of bringing in like maybe like a Warren Buffett or Benjamin Graham values on type framework. So one thing I hear quite often as soon as I talk about one of these things is what's the underlying business model?
Right?
But when you look at a company like MicroStrategy or company like Metaplanet, the stock is the business model, right, it is the product that they offer.
So we're seeing that now.
So those are some things. I'd also look at maybe some of the metrics and how they're measured, right, So like, for example, most of them are trying to earn more bitcoin per share, but if you don't understand what the target is, then how do you really value them? So those are some of the things I was thinking about it. Or why do some trade, like metaplanic trade is such a high valuation compared to a mind strike? Do you find most investors have a hard time trying to figure that out?
Yeah?
I mean even members of True North that they spend arguably twelve to sixteen hours a day studying this stuff.
And they range from.
Guys that are still in college to guys that could be my dad. I'm forty three.
Yep.
It's so brand new that any certain aspect to it that's not appreciated can kind of throw you off. So people are like, oh, it's just the stock and it's this flywheel and it's not sustainable. But if you understand that bitcoin is pristine collateral and that that's literally within a twenty four hour period, if you're selling stock and
turning right around and buying bitcoin with it. I mean, compare that to real estate or building a hotel and how long it takes to become profitable, to hold out to be profitable from a cash flow perspective, or be able to drop that down after all your expenses on your balance sheet.
I mean, they're literally just.
Putting more and more of the best collateral humanities ever known on their balance sheet. And one of the panels over in a bitcoin inmesterday at Paris Blockchain we the one guy said it really really well. Part of what he said was back in the day when people were stockpiling gold, there were companies that did that, and the company that did that the most successfully event in England
became the Bank of England. Like that's where like if you can really appreciate that, that's I think the foundation of what If you're not appreciating that, it might be really tough to kind of write then all the preferred stock and all these other tickers and all these companies and copycats and what everybody's chatting about. That kind of that comes after understanding bitcoin and Christine collateral.
Do you think most people come into the space understand bitcoin at that level.
No, we're all on a journey. Yeah, absolutely not.
I mean because if they're trying to get bitcoin for shared you know, one of the things I hear I want to ask you about is the risk in the market. So we'll come to that. But in regards to the risk, it's like what happens in a downturn? Well, if my goal is to get more bitcoin for a share, what is the downturn? Is my bitcoin going up? Because if one bitcoin equals one bitcoin, if you're pricing it in bitcoin, if on price in bitcoin, what downturn are we talking about?
And really digging into these companies.
So that's what these different groups and live streams of podcasts are doing a great job just analyzing is what
what is the risk profile? Because during certain periods of time, if something by definition starts with a lower market cap and they're really being aggressive with their strategy, there's probably going to be periods of help performance versus micro strategy or versus right, So it is kind of like this, you know coin, it's sort of a phenomenon, but with bitcoin as far as these different corporate rappers, so that's interesting and to say the obvious, not all of them.
We're going to be successful. We've already seen, right, won't name names with There's already been companies that they did the strategy and now you don't hear about them anymore because they didn't go about it in.
The correct way. From a government standpoint, I'll just leave.
It at that.
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Yeah, it's important to have the alignment throughout the governance of that to do that, But let's take a look at it. If we think about the companies again, like micro strategy, you're a better planet if their ticker is the product they're offering, then I would ask you the question. Right now, a lot of people are saying, maybe this is an over a zuber bubble. Maybe we're seeing this rise too fast and the crash is coming. How many of these types of companies do you think the market
could bear. I think the market can bear an infinite amount of companies just putting bitcoin on the balance sheet without taking on leverage. Certainly beyond that, I don't know I think I don't know that micro Strategy would ever do this. But let's say we go to get into a bear market and there's a company that they have
ten bitcoin but they're trading at eight bitcoin. Well maybe a company that's in a really strong position, like MicroStrategy could just buy them for nine bitcoin and everybody's happy enough. So I think they'll be kind of like what we're seeing with the miners, some consolidation and some just all of that different nuance of about activity and m and a as we as.
Just is it of this break new future?
Yeah? Yeah, I mean we have thousands of financial products in the market today, are tens of thousands of financial products, and if you look at each one of them having a little bit of a different strategy than you might almost look at them as like an ETF, right, where each one is just a little bit different. And there's thousands of ETFs as well, but.
There shouldn't be thousands more. I mean, guys that we all know and love in the space that have pioneered it, I mean they've specifically said the comment, I don't know why there aren't more ETFs and structured products like there's just and it's hopefully it gets back to the foundational education of bitcoin, like own bitcoin, go through that process to really educate yourself on it as round yourself with
people that can help you with that. But whatever door they come in through, great, right, it's all good for bitcoin.
Yeah, So if they're like these ETFs, then there should be even more of them, like you said, then, like I said, there's maybe an infinite mouth that we can absorb into the market. The problem will become how do you get attention? So anyone can go watch an ETF. I could do that. I've looked into it. How do
you get attention to that ETF? So we sort of have this window and time right now where these companies can sort of take advantage of that, but eventually the law of doomision or turns will sort of diminish that. So do you think this sort of irrational xuberance last six months, twelve months, a year?
How does that take her off?
I know some guys are looking at it as it's going to be the it's going to be the traditional cycle, and you know, no matter what happens, you're going to take a certain amount off the table, or at least have that mindset of later this year, right is just be really thoughtful about what you're doing if you're, you know,
wanting to get out of a position. But I think it's going to be a longer I mean, just everything from the US regulatory environment, the government, I mean, everything seems to be setting up for the potential of the price going quite a bit higher this year.
And into next year.
I mean, if the the US government or I saw something on x about Adam back City's consulting and software wealth funds. I mean, these things are happening. So if they kind of stare step their way up the way that we've heard for a while now the ten basis points to one percent, two percent. Now you're hearing five percent, and not just from the Kathy Woods of the world, but from more and more, you know, the black Rock saying one to two percent that keeps stair stepping its
way up. Then arguably we might make sense that the price just stair steps its way up and it just grinds up with volatility for a longer period and maybe we see some sort of low offt top in twenty twenty six. Yeah, nobody knows the future.
Nobody knows, but we do know cycles and we know how they repeat it, so most likely until proved otherwise they're going to repeat the nature of this business. If we talk about the Treasury Strategy companies, the nature of that business is leverage, right, leverage the balance sheet to increase the bitcoin for a share. So the very nature of the business is to leverage it. And then we know humans then take things too far, so then naturally some people are going to push it way too far.
And so we talk about sort of like the warm buffet quote. Right when the tide goes out, we see wo'swining naked. So a lot of people thought Sailor would get liquidated in the last downturn. He built a balance sheet in a way that he didn't. But some people maybe won't do that. So I guess what would you say, are some of the biggest risks or red flags that you would look for in some of these companies going into a downturn that might scare you?
Yeah, I mean to your point, the leverage ratio super important. Sale and Strategy very publicly said they're targeting a twenty or thirty percent equity leverage point, So anyone that's maybe above that, and again digging into the details, of it technically was impossible. After Salem got the traditional bank loans off of it balance sheet, it like it wasn't it's not collateralized. There's no margin feature on any of this.
And so to the extent that companies can follow that playbook, for lack of a better word, I think they'll be in a better position than the people that are trying to just make it up as they go and really just view it more as a trade. And so yeah, I think so.
The leverage is sort of the main thing you're looking for.
The leverage and what are the covenants, what are the details about Like if bitcoin goes down to eighty thousand dollars, you know, do they need to sell some bitcoin? And and again you know Strive and Knakamoto, right, David Bailey and mac cole have both set publicly bitcoin per share. We're gonna optimize for bitcoin per share and that could mean buy bitcoin or selling bitcoin. They're super sharp people in the industry.
I talked to you.
They're like, yeah, when you're a smaller player, and I think Davids had said this right, when you're when you're a smaller player, you can probably do that.
And you're not going to move the market.
But at a certain point, you know, they may just by personal opinion, I think they may rethink that because.
Just the messaging. What do you think.
My thought is, when you're smaller, maybe it gives more investor confidence that it's being actively managed. But when you get to the point of like a strategy, and you have half a million bitcoin or a million bitcoin, I mean I feel like the messaging has to be that you're not going to sell your bitcoin.
I think everyone's going to have their own strategy, and that's why all these financial products will have a place in the market. Right There's going to be a place for all of those. Speaking of strategy, what do you think about Michael Saylor's comments about not learning the show truth on reserts.
I think if people listen to the whole ten to fifteen minute response, it is very thoughtful and nuanced, meaning he's open to doing a zero knowledge proof potentially at some point where it masks the address. So I think there are are maybe not actual technical, physical so to speak, risk, but if you have bitcoin in a wallet and then that bitcoin moves, and you just have every single cyber hornet in the world just like well, that one coin
moved and it's creating all this fud. I don't think that's helpful, even if it's not like an actual security risk, I don't I think that could turn into a really big kind of fud storm that nobody really needs. With that said, it certainly differentiates if Strategy is not going to do it, but metaplanet is doing it. You know, there's all of these different features that people can consider selling points. I guess you could say, yeah, that that kind of leads into.
Yeah, I mean there's all kinds of unknown risks that we don't know about. You do you know some known risks? So for example, dustin attacks, right, So why I'm publicizing what those wallet addresses are, You're potentially setting yourself up some attacks that way. I think there's also potential treasury management. So you might not want to hold all five hundred
and eighty thousand bitcoin in a single wallet. You might want twenty or two thousand wallets, and then you might decide you want four thousand wallets, and then you might decide you want to go to two thousand wallets again, and then every time you move those number one, how do you update people on four thousand wallets? Number two, to your point, are coin moves. Then does the market
react to that, Oh my gosh, they're selling or whatever? Right, And so from a lot of perspectives, you could see plenty of readings why you wouldn't want to do that, as to why you would want to do that. What the people seem to be pretty upset about right now is it doesn't really align with the ethos or the ideology of bitcoin, because they should be not trusting, but verifying.
Do you think that by showing proof of reserves though, it gives people a false sense of security because even if they see the bitcoin there, do they really have a claim to it? What other encumbrances could there be against that bitcoin? Where are they on the stack? So maybe it gives people even a false sense of security that way.
Yeah, I think those are all great points. And I mean, unless there's something that I'm not familiar with, all the ETPs all these corporate rappers, you don't have a coin on the bitcoin, maybe they'll be like kind of exchange on the eutpsys or a point. I'm sure there will be, whether it's six months or six years from now. But yeah, I think they're they're all important considerations, and yeah, you don't want that proof of reserve stuff just constantly in
the news cycle. That's probably not helpful. And to repeat what's been said for five years now, you should be self.
Sovereign, you should have own bitcoin, you should have.
Happen to cold storage. So I mean, is there some way that something's in like super deep cold storage. Like let's say you have a million bitcoin, you have one hundred thousand of it, one hundred thousand of it that like argue we are you're never going to touch, and it's in such deep cold storage that you can tell people what those wallets are. I'm not a security expert on that side of things. That's a terrible idea, but that's where my mind goes.
Yeah, you mentioned the self sovereign, just get your own bitcoin and put into cold stories. And so if you're really that much into the ideology, then maybe you should just buy your own bitcoin because there is counter party risk. It's inequity, right, it's not immutable. Yep. So you think you think there's sort of a mismatch of the buyer in the market where they want to align with somebody with like sovereign ethos, but at the same time they're buying inequity.
No, I don't think that at all. Every time I see FUD, I just rationally try to think through it. Well, if somebody didn't like the stock, they would either not buy the stock or they would sell the stock. So if someone's out there being noisy on social media, what are they actually doing? Are they shorting the stock? Do they have friends that are shorting the stock? Or they get your money where your mouth is?
Yeah, Like, if you just rationally think through it, it's.
Like like, if there's rational objection or concerns or questions, that's one thing. But if someone's just like super hard fudding something, it's like, all right, you can be spend your whole life being upset about stuff. And I've gone through that, right, I'm like, stop talking about the ATM like and but it's it's just not you kind of have to stay focused and guard time.
Guard your energy.
Now, what about Like most bitcoinners are hoddlers, right, so they're long term thinkers. We understand bitcoin is going to go a lot over a long period of time, but a lot of people in the equity space seem to be more in a trader mentality. I've been approached by countless people, as I'm sure you have as well, just at this event where like I think I'm gonna sell micro Strategy and roll into X y Z. What do you think about that?
What do you say to that? Yeah, so what are you optimizing for?
Again, whether it's micro Strategy versus Metaplanet, Metaplanet versus the
next thing? I like, But that's a speculative or trading sort of mentality, which is fine, but I think you should recognize that's what you're doing, unless you're going to say, hey, I understand and appreciate what strategy is doing, and I'm going to hold this long term, whether it's over a year for tax purposes, ten fifteen, twenty years, like what happens after the accumulation phase, and so there's been some announcements and talk about that as far as how to
yield or whatever, and hopefully without a lot of reasonable counterparty risk or within the bitcoin ecosystem, like what happens when there's products and services or you know, whether it's you know and no strategy just is pounding the table and they're not going to become a bank. But like whether it's banking or insurance or other services and Yeah, that's I guess my view on where all this is going. And Ben Work's talk to a lot about that of like, hey,
there's there's He kind of thinks there's two phases. There's the accumulation and then you become the Bank of England and then you can do whatever you want.
Yeah, I would probably say Sailor might become the most wealthy man in the world, not because he's trading Strategy stock. Yep, he's owning it right jet basis because why those guys that wor holding Amazon stock not trading it And so it's like sort of allocating and sort of way in that long term period. Let's switch scares a little bit. So I know, you know you're you're sort of the pretty girl to dance right now, everyone's talking to you.
One of the things that you're doing is talking to other companies that might be considering doing these treasury strategies and things like that. What type of companies do you think are sort of in the sweet spot to do this, and how would you advise them to go about launching one of these.
I think any company that has the right leadership is in a great spot. I mean, you look at what Simon and Dylan and done with Metaplanet it was one hotel, So I don't I think it's industry specific. I think
it's leadership specific. And I think the only thing you've been remotely close to advising anyone on is like you have your capital strategy, should probably have an attention strategy, a media strategy, because if you're not going to announce it really to the world and really put a spotlight on it, right and not like the crypto bros that are out pumping their coins for five minutes and they're really excited in their YouTube video and then it's over like that doesn't it's probably not a.
Long term strategy.
It's not credible, it's not durable. So yeah, just having the right leadership, and I mentioned this on the Live Desplaine Monday. I think there's a lot of opportunity for a lot of people that are either in media or want to have seat in this part in space to help these companies.
Really with that.
Digital distribution, because I don't think there's going to be many other CEOs that are either going to have the interest or a wherewithal to do what Salor's done for five years straight, which is due like a podcast a day, I might be being dramatic, but a podcast a week is probably understating it. Just pounding the table on bitcoin
and messaging that conviction out to the market. So I think there's a lot of opportunity for people on the podcast or media side to really helicopter themselves in, help them, help to bring out their story, their conviction and the personal side of the executives, and tell that story in all these different format lights, whether it's thirty seconds or three hours.
Since I have a fun investor here, I have an actual treasury company here, Steven puts that back there, you're also working on the treasuries. Anybody want to ask any questions? Zach obviously analyzes these. Anybody want to, like, ask how many questions? Since we're kind of an informal thing. A lot of people showed up. Yeah please.
So you mentioned a government regulation of the times, and I just wanted to ask you to see bitcoin and playing a major role in real estatee organization.
I think the coin is going to play a big role in a lot of what people are thinking on the When they say tokenizing the world, to quote Larry Fink or blockchain, we're all about web three, blockchain tokenization, some other buzzword that like you can do so much on the blockchain and not just layer one that, as Sailor has said, is really going to be for nation
states to settle on at a certain point here. But layer two, Layer three, layer four, Yeah, Like I don't know my personal but opinion is like they're just going to be a limited or no coin season, Like people are not rotating out of their black rock bitcoin etf into doge coin this time. So I think you'll see people will be surprised to see how much you can build within the bitcoin ecosystem. And I think that'll extend to every industry and quite in real estate.
And what I would add on to that is that if you think about tokenizing real estate, so if we break that down, what does that even me? So token would be like a fractional ownership unit piece of real estate, sort of like if I have an LLC and people buy shares, So like we already do fractionalize ownership of real estate, whether I call it a share or a token, Like what's the difference? That's number one? Number two, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to try
to tokenize a physical asset into a virtual asset. So bitcoin is a bear and right, it's tokenized energy basically that I can have and I can keep. But real estate is just real estate. It's a physical asset, right, So I don't really see any advantage. All of this is like, really add friction to the transaction, add liquidity? How How I don't I don't see it adding liquidity. I think there's specifically in real estate. I think there's
a really big problem with that. Is that in order for things to go from a collected so money has an evolutionary process from a collectible to a store, a valuage or medium exchange and events to create account. Now what happens is it has to have the right attributes in order to scale that evolutionary process. So to go from a store of value like a piece of real
estate is to become a medium exchange. To have liquidity, it has to have the right attributes portable, durable, divisible, recognizable, fundable, saleable, et cetera. So homes are not fungible. So one unit of a four plex in Indianapolis, how do I value that against the unit of single families? Reveget to bath in Tampa, Miami, or Lando, right, and so I don't see it crave more liquid market. But even if it does, we don't need bitcoin or a blockchain to do that.
We can already do that. We have all types of fractionized ownership those d platforms that are out there right now today, so you can already do it. You can already buy a fractional owney with real estate. So I don't see how bitcoin at all, much less a token would help that necessarily.
Yeah, Timmy, your thoughts on it seems to me whether it's any land or buying series trying to erry cash flower than users investing.
Balls that did not go so well.
Given the headitors that we.
Can face over time for a while, they're generally above the cash flow starving series of cat pecks.
And just revestigators up my edge.
One seems to me this whole bitcoin treasure strategy, which company can differentially on them all the rest can become like for sure half the very flow ready to labor a series cash flow to then just.
Keep deploying it, not just relo on the counter markets. You see any companies out there or you're ready to take advantage and that ortryrapic model or mid sized companies in the area have that as well.
Yeah, that's a great question.
I've been approached by private companies that they're like, hey, we own a bunch of well known franchises, right, dozens of them, hundreds of them. We want to do the treasury strategy. We don't know how to do it. I guess the paradox is, if you're a mag seven or even a reasonably successful company, as sale Or says, you might not have that that need to know.
But yeah, I think it.
Really just comes down to leadership, and it'll be interesting to see what these inflection points are to where is it the shareholder pressure, the societal kind of media pressure that has some of these mag seven or larger cup firms put like a small amount of bitcoinn of their balance sheet just to kind of appease everybody, because it becomes so de risked that they're like, yeah, sure, I believe Salon normal Isaac Burn like your softboorder finally changes
their mind boats yes, or Apple supposed to might putting up the promises as well. Yeah, so yeah, I guess that's the paradox you could say is the companies that are the most successful don't have a need to know, similar to you know the great things that L. Salbador has done, just right, just keep stacking.
But do you think it also works better with small companies because when you're a big company like a Seer's or an Apple, I mean, even if you put ten percent of your balance sheet into bitcoin, what is that really going to do to the overall market cap?
Yeah, and that's that's the answer to a common question is is a company going to catch strategy? Well, sure, if you have enough cash or it can raise enough cash, we can probably match their holdings potentially, But you're gonna be as leveraged as they are because you if you're an Apple, you have such a huge operating business that is just not the same amount of leverage of bitcoin versus operating Yeah.
One of the comments gave up, you know is that MS trying to say, well, you know, it's company as anology straight for a you know, actual margin. There's I kind of see that playing out of work here.
Or you know there's some company that trade.
Out you know seventy nine to ten times.
And ap allustrated two or three or ale, you know, the company that are off by the company a little rednap versus using that's accountal A big.
Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I might need an actual analyst or quant It's not you know, I'm not I'm not that deep on that side of it, but I think it take a lot of analysis to just, you know, what's the upside to just buying bitcoin versus
if I can acquire a company? What all does that bring to the table, X, Y, and z as far as the bitcoin, the operating business, the leverage ratio and like, will that you know, if you're if you're still in kind of an up grinding up market, like, does that give you more opportunity over that sort of.
Short to medium timeframe?
Is it sort of the bitcoin torque number?
Right?
So it's like if I deploy a dollar, how much bitcoin growth do I get from that? So what's my torque number versus if I go out and buy the other company?
Right?
And I guess you'd compare those two. Thanks for the small little group of friends in family they game to show up for this. Uh, thanks very thanks for coming rob it up.
Thanks for the invice is great.
Yeah,