The Mark Moss Show - Talking with Robert Breedlove

of the best thinkers in the space. During the Bitcoin Conference, he had a special event where he sat down with one of the biggest thinkers in the world. Today, I'm talking about Jordan Peterson, and I'm also talking about Robert breed Love. So I'm sitting down with Robert breed Love. He gotta sit down with Jordan Peterson and man, the conversation was unbelievable, and I'm having him on the show to talk to you today about what money is and so much more. Let's go ahead and jump in um

with Robert right now. Hi, Robert, thanks for joining me again today. Or is a pleasure sitting down with you. I've been looking forward to it, um, Mark has not been that long, so nice to see you again for what's been a week. Well it's been a while since I've had you on the channel. But yeah, we got to hang out quite a bit last week, which was which was awesome. I was loft hanging out with you. Um, so we were hanging out at Bitcoin two thousand twenty two. UM,

let's talk about that just for a minute. What did you think about the conference? Just I guess from a high level, Well, this year was definitely a lot bigger. Let's take away. UM, I think it was really well done. I like to layout inside the convention center. Um, it was a bit confusing, I think at the beginning, just trying to get the lay of the land. Yeah, once you knew everything was it was a nice flow. Um.

The experienced me was very similar to last year. Actually, like almost everywhere I went, I'm just getting mobbed with love. You know, people are like thank you for whatever the Sailor series or this thing you wrote or you know, this interview of yours. What I saw, I was overwhelmed because I thought back at Bitcoin twenty twenty one, that

was kind of an anomaly year. You know, Bitcoin was way up, you know, the show was new, and that was my experience at Bitcoin people mobbing me with love, like, oh surely bitcoin, this one will be more calm now, calmed down, chilled out because bitcoin price isn't moving as much. I've been putting out a lot of work, but you

just don't. You and I have talked about this. You put out a lot of work sort of in isolation, and you don't really see the impact on people's lives, but you see it through social media a little bit, but to see it in person, it's a whole different ballgame. Um, I think the vibe was tremendous. I mean, I'm more bullish on the bitcoin community than ever. People are just

this this transformation that occurs personally, psychologically, financially. You know, it really seems to be like rippling through everyone and hopefully changing lives. It was better, So it was it

was really nice to see that phenomenon up closing personal again. Yeah, I also think about, um, you know, when you're investing adventure, and I know you had your fund going for a while, so like you know, when you're investing adventure, Um, typically those are you know, six seven, ten years before you see those types of deals come to fruition, and so like how do you track that and like you tracked the user growth and you can track the development on

the network. I think about those two metrics, and so if you look at the growth the trajectory of the audience growth, right, So from fiftudred people one was I don't know, ten thousand people in this year was like thirty thousand people, right, yeah, yeah, were you at nineteen

yea in San Francisco? That was like it was small people maybe, and then they I guess ten extra one or we last two years so was off because of the COVID Yeah, and so yeah, I think it was thirteen or fourteen thousand people last year and then this year was what thirty five thousand? Yeah. Um, They've built a hell of a build this. You know, it's kind of centered on that one giant event per year, and I really enjoyed it. I am sort of regretful, Like I missed the last day of the conference because I

had the Peterson event that night. I started to lose my voice in the morning, so I was really worried about going to the conference and not being able to speak during the interview. Ended up skipping that last day and just resting my voice and then the day after they had the comed Comedians and Music Festival, which I actually wanted to attend, but um, you know, we're doing

other events and all that that day. So just we're hanging out of Michael Peter's IM sorry, we're hanging out into Michael Saylor's house, having and that was a really good time. That was a highlight for me to you just to get together with you know, so many people that we were close with and just had a little huddle. It was. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah.

And then I mean talking about you know, Michael Sailor, just like that, the high level of people that are at those events, so like again from it was pretty like hardcore bitcoiners um and this year we had billionaires obviously Michael Sailor, senators there, Cynthia Loomis, and then I

mean Jordan Peterson. I mean, there's probably nobody bigger in the thought leader space today than that guy, right, yeah, I mean, I certainly think so it's pretty clear my my perspective on Peterson, He's definitely the greatest impact on my thinking for a living person. You know, maybe Mesas and some of these other guys are are up there as wealth in terms of people that are past. But UM, it was an honor, you know, it was an honor to put this event together. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Um he I appreciate his skepticism and his thoughtfulness, you know, just drinking the kool aid. You know, he's really trying to look come at it from multiple angles and and take the argument or you know, the bitcoin thesis apart. And that's ultimately what makes it so valuable is trying to do Um. He's an extremely fast thinker, fast talker. You know, he's got a lot of intellectual horsepower. Yeah, up with even But I thought his fireside chat with

Terror was great. That was more, I guess, a bit more surface level in terms of his thinking about macroeconomics and bitcoin. And then that night, UM, which was our first in person for first live event, first interview I've done in front of a live studio audience. We had when you were there in the front row and we had seven people there, I think, Wow, isn't that many? Dang? Yeah? Deep, you know, I tried to I tried to skip the surface level discussion. It was go straight to the bottom

of the rabbit hole. And you know, he's so fascinating. You can talk about anything and you can tie it back to really these different psychological dimensions and you know, human development. We talked a lot about game theory and how humans sort of bootstrap morality through play and nature of voluntary versus involuntary games, and we're tying all these things back to money and bitcoin. You know. That's my littles to us for an interview is I just try to I really I'm trying to learn. I call it

learning out loud. So I want to have conversations that are interesting to me, that are pushing my own understanding where I'm at the edge of my understanding, and hopefully my guest is as well. And we're producing something novel and useful in that in that dialogue, and I think we did it. You know, the feedback from the live event was was wonderful. Um, we're working on releasing the video now in the next few days. We're just running it through the edit flow and making sure it's tight

and so we'll see what the world thinks. I thought it was amazing the amount of work that you did in advance to like really put the questions in order and build you know, kind of from that from that first principle's level so highly anticipated for you to release that,

I'll watch it again. Everybody else shout as well. But um so, if we look at the Bitcoin you know, like I said, if we look at the Bitcoin conference, the growth, the growth of the trajectory of the audience, the amount of people that have come there, like the mind share that's coming over the space, it's like pretty amazing. It's definitely one metric that I'm looking at. One of the things that I saw at the conference was I worked at news desk. I know you worked at as well.

For a couple of days. I was. I was working on Industry Day, which was the first day, and there was a lot of people from the industry, and they're talking about, you know, we need regulations and we need clarity, and they kept saying, we need to push for mass adoption, push for mass adoption, push for match it up mass adoption. And I thought, uh, I was like, you know, my contrary and take is that we don't need to push for mass adoption. One like Alex Fetski says, the masses

are always wrong. But I was just saying that Per two thou eighteen FED report of Americans don't even have four hundred dollars for an emergency. So I'm like, those people don't even need to worry about like bitcoin or crypto. Um, what's your thoughts on that? Yeah, I mean I'm sort of I guess I'm in alignment in a way that I've always thought of bitcoins adoption would progress according to the minority rule. And we you know, I've and some

about this. This is a concept I picked up from teleb But just this idea that the preferences of an obstinate minority typically can influence the preferences of the whole, as long as the whole doesn't there's there's sort of indifferent to what. Most people don't care, like they want their money to just work, right, I want to wipe the card and put the thing in the account and

know that it's there. Um. But if you developed this and Spetzky, it's a lot of these guys refer to the remnant, right, the the focused, intelligent minority that's just stacking SATs to all kingdom. Come it almost it almost starts to create this growth dynamic and Bitcoin where it's rules get imposed on others, like you have to to protect yourself from inflation, or to preserve wealth across time,

or you know, any number of reasons. There's a million use cases for bitcoin that you end up having to use this neutral settlement layer. And I mean that's the path that I think it follows. Is bitcoin just continues to monetize. Um. There will always be the die hard stackers, and when they're just taking new supply off the market, bitcoins just got the you know, the cell press run.

Bitcoin is going to be diminished more and more along with this new issue in ste to do to the having, which is going to drive price higher and higher and higher, and eventually that draws in the masses, right, the masses typically just chase the price. So I mean I'm focused on that. I think in my educational efforts to I call it, you know, raising an army of educators. And you see, you had this brilliant quote one time, the setting brush fires and the minds of men something like that.

That captures it as well. It's like, let's just give people the fundamental view on money, on property, on government, on the nature of our socio economic systems of human cooperation, and then let them decide. I'm not here to prescribe the coin in one. I'm just trying to ask big questions and dig deep and hopefully find some some useful

knowledge in the process. But I think it will ultimately be that that small cadre of people that will really just by holding such a secure footprint on the network and not accepting any inferior savings technology, not bending to any regulation or any threat um, that's what's gonna trigger this hyper bitcoinization type of event that we that we all look forward to. All Right, you're listening to the Mark mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about

the decentralized revolution. I'm sitting down with Robert Breedlove from the What Is Money Show? Right now, don't go away, we have a lot more to go when we come back. All right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Moss Show. I'm in the studio today joined by Robert Breedlove. He's host of the What Is Money Podcast? You can find them on podcast or on YouTube. One of the greatest thinkers. Today we're talking about his conversation with Jordan

Peterson at the Point conference and What is Money. Let's pick it back up here. Yeah, so your show What Is Money and then what is money? Show? W I am has been basically trying to answer that, like what is money? And yeah, the majority of people just have no idea what money is? And so then back to like needing to push for adoption. It's like those people

don't even know they have a problem. Um, I say, Uh, in marketing, we'd say it's much easier to sell food to someone who's starving than to convince them of their starving first and then try to sell them food, right. Uh. In Venezuela where their currency is blown up, you don't have to convince them that they should get out of that currency and into something else, um, you know, or in Canada when they got kicked out of the banking system or their bank accounts are about to get seized,

you don't have to convince them. Um. So a lot of it's just like bringing the attention to that. But you've focused on this what is money um, and a lot of people just don't know that. I guess if we dig into that, I know you've outlined a bunch like the certain attributes of money, UM, tell tell us what those are real quick? Yeah. So I think when you there's so many answers to this question. I literally

have an ongoing blog series right now. I've answer to that question that both I've either discovered in reading or I've maybe sort of put together through my own thinking, or I've just been given by guests. You know, a lot of guests come on the show and they have some unique answer to it. Um. But it's really interesting, you know, and a lot of people. It seems like it's resonated with the audience too, because a lot of people didn't notice that it was such a fundamental question.

But like now that you asked it, I've heard all these different answers, Like it's one of those really deep questions like what is truth or what is value? You know, it's something. Um, it's just a rabbit hole, I guess, and a nutshell. But for me, my original, the original drama is beating a lot was Okay, you want to understand bitcoin, the coins and novel innovation. It's new. It's

very complicated. You could lead with the technical explanation of bitcoin, you know, like cryptography and distributed computing networks and game theory and all of this, but I think that for most people they just kind of have that glazed overlook when you take that approach. So my realization was, as you said, if you don't know what the problem is, then you can't really put bitcoin in the proper context.

So I said, I tried to dispense with this technical explanation of bitcoin as a modern technology and really take the opposite tack entirely. Let's forget all that and just go to the very beginning, the first principles or whatever of human history and say, what is money? How did we get money? Um? We all know that gold became

money historically. And I put people like Ray Dalio in this group, like, he gets money very deeply relative to most people, but when he looks at gold, his explanation for why gold became money is it has intrinsic value, and that's a failing in my opinion. There are specific properties that human beings demand and money, and I think that, for me is the bottom of that question. It's like just explaining the properties people want in the money. Um.

And I've put it like this before. We often talk about goods and services, you know, distinguishing say the physical good a shovel, for instance, versus the service which is digging holes. But it's ultimately what we're all ultimately looking for services, even the good itself. We only demand that good because the services it renders to us, or the

the it can accelerate us towards the achievement of our aim. Right, I can dig holes faster with a shovel than with my bare hands, So you start to think of it in those terms. Then it's all about services even money. So it's like, what services do people demand from money? Another way of saying that is what properties to people demand from money? And again this is a question if you ask guys like Edstrom. He wrote a book on this with fourteen properties of money. You will read the

Austrians they have seven, they have ten. It just depends what you read. I tried to narrow it down as much as possible and I got it down to five. And this was influenced by an excellent book actually that's available free online titled Honest Money by Gary North. Gary North just passed away. He's like a Christian libertarian philosopher. It's a free pdf on mesas dot org. You can

also buy an Amazon it. He narrowed it down to you um divisibility, durability, recognizability, portability, scarcity, and when I first got into this bitcoin media explanation of like, you know, talking about what is money and explaining explaining the money in a historical context. That was adequate to put bitcoin in and have bitcoin be understood. And I think that chain, that that explanatory chain was really successful actually because then

you're like, oh, I get it. Gold was the most divisible, durable, recognizable, portable, scarest thing we had. That's why we demanded it as money. That's why it became money. You also understand what gold lacked, right, which was portability. Very hard to move gold across space, even though it holds value well across time, which explains why we abstracted gold into a paper currency. Right, we're in we're augmenting its transactibility across space, increasing its portability.

But that introduced the problem, right, we now need to trust the guy that's warehousing the gold not to over issue the paper claims on gold. That was the ultimate honey pot for governments and central banks. Historically it's become the most corrupt institution in the world, as we've talked about that nauseum. And so it explains all that. Just look at the properties of money. And then finally, if you evaluate bitcoin through that lens of the properties of money.

You see that it's the most perfect money we've ever had. All Right, I just want to let you know real quick. You are listening to the Mark Moa Show and in the studio with Robert Breedlove. He's the host of the What Is Money Show and podcast. Um, we have a lot more to discuss. I have a whole list of questions you do not want to miss. So don't go away. We are back. All right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Moss Show. I'm in the studio today,

joined by Robert Breedlove. He's host of the What Is Money Podcast? You can find him on podcast or on YouTube. One of the greatest thinkers. Today we're talking about his conversation with Jordan Peterson at the Bitcoin conference and what is Money? Let's pick it back up here. So if we if we trust the money with the best reputation. Okay, that's one thing which I guess has been the dollar. I mean it was gold obviously, and then it's the dollar. But then think about this, so then, um, what is

the dollar? Right? The dollar is really this is something I've been thinking about quite a bit. The dollar really is a payment network is what it is, right, It's the way, it's the easiest way, the best way, the best reputation to move money around the world. And so of course Russia, I didn't just get their dollars sees, they didn't even have that many dollars. They got their f X accounts because they had a bunch of different currencies, They got their f X reserve sees, and they got

kicked out of the Swift system, the payment network. And so not only did they kill the dollar, which you had the best reputation, but also the payment network, which is actually a pretty big deal when you think about that. Yeah, absolutely, and you know, I would say, first and foremost, the dollar is a derivative of gold. That's the only reason we ever had a paper currency anywhere ever, was to

facilitate the portability of precious metals, whether gold, whatever it was. Obviously, due to technological realities and or people's ignorance of the financial system and money, we got to nineteen seventy one right where we broke that peg permanently. We've never looked back um and shortly after that, right, because you know, to use a sailor aphorism, money as energy, right, it's economic energy, right. The dollar was pegged to the energy

expenditure necessary to produce gold. That's what secured its supply. When we break that peg, you can't leave the dollar unpegged. So very quickly it was repegged black gold, the petro dollar. So that's now what the United States it's it's the point of leverage the United States uses to impose this. Uh. I think it's glad Seemed typically calls it the global dollar hedgeminy um, and it's you know, we forcibly denominate oil contracts and oil or in dollars rather etcetera, etcetera.

That's also changing now, like as a result of the Russia thing, I think they're selling oil and rupees and other currencies. So that whole the unipolar world we had around the dollar, it's being ripped apart in real time. Um. And it's hard to say where that goes, but you know, you you bring up swift to Russia getting kicked off that Ultimately it's just a messaging system, right, You're just

messaging amounts of money across this network. There's not any final settlement occurring in terms of like gold being transmitted, right, um, And so all again, all these things like it's just another big billboard for bitcoin. So you've got to kick us off the global trade network effectively by kicking us off the SWIL system. Is there an alternative messaging system we could use to conduct this international trade? All turns out there is yeah, And that's where I'm to turn off.

That's where I'm going. I'm trying to use your technique to build this conversation. So if if the dollar was the money with the best reputation, but really it's the payment network. To your point, it's like a messaging network. What's the best reputation. But now we found out that well that you can all use the network if we say you can use the network, because it wasn't just dollars to my point about Russia, it was the network they got kicked off of. Now you mentioned Ray Dalio

and his research is amazing. He's he's forgotten more than I'll ever know. I mean, his research is unbelievable. I just finished his book and I've done some videos on it, The Change World Order. I forget the title. Um, I just finished it and it's an amazing book. Everyone should read it. And then you mentioned the word multipolar I don't know if you've been reading some of the work

of Zoltan Posar that he's been putting out recently. He's been talking about this breton Woods three UM and talking about how uh I don't know, have you heard about that Sulton Poston. It was recommended to me. I haven't read it yet. I mean the big level is that breton Woods obviously went to a gold standard that was still commodity money, right, so the world had been on commodity money. One broke the gold standard and we went to what he calls inside money, so basically bank treasuries.

So no more commodity money. Now it's fiat money, and that we've been in that since nineteen seventy one. So he calls that breton Woods too. And now that agreement was broken, the payment network was shut down, uh February two, and now we're going back to breton Wood three, which is a commodity money again, so now everybody's hoarding natural resources, natural gas, oil, etcetera. UM. But one thing that um

Daio and pose are both seemed to miss. And of course, you know, I've been talking about these three revolutionary cycles, so we have to look at this like political revolution cycle, which Dalyo Nails. I mean, his research is amazing and shows how we have the US is a declining superpower and China as a rising superpowerty Nails is down from like a political standpoint, and even uh he talks about these eighty year financial revolutions, these long term credit cycles.

But what he misses and what pulls our misses is the technology revolution piece and so on about a fifty year time frame. We have a technological revolution, not a technology, but a revolution that changes the course of humanity. And and they didn't bring that in. And so we have this technology. And to to the point, if the payment network is broken, we have a new payment network. And

here's something I've been thinking about. So UM in the United States, we had the telephone and all throughout the US we have telephone polls and telephone wires running everywhere, right, And that was put up about a hundred years ago. And the Internet UM scaled pretty quickly, the adoption scale pretty quickly because we had telephone lines. UM in the old days, you had someone at the switchboard and they

would route that call right. And then we scaled pretty quickly because we had the telephone lines and it ran over that. Um. But today we have wireless phones, um, and so we don't really the internet scalpe pretty quickly. Then eventually they put fiber optics in the ground, they skipped the telephone lines, and now we just use wireless altogether. Um. But then we saw nations like Africa leap frog. They never had wired telephones, they just went straight to wireless.

And so what is the telephone network, Well, it's an information network right through wires. And so if you think about the month the dollar being a payment network, that's the to the point, had the best reputation. It's now killed. Um. Could we see other nations just leap frog right past that payment network and just use a different payment network. Absolutely,

I think it's a brilliant way to break it down. Um. You know, to your point with Africa, it's like they had no technical debt or infrastructure debt in that leap frog. So it's a huge boon for them to skip this this wave of fixed capital deployment. Because if you deploy a bunch of whatever telephone poles, cellphone wires, and then ten years later you don't need them, well, that's a that's a huge outlay that was no longer benefiting you effectively.

And so if you're a smaller up and coming developing nation, you can observe these technological trends playing out in the developed world, and you know, cherry pick what's best. You can skip the telephone polls and go straight to wireless. And typically those advancements almost by definition, are orders of magnitude more efficient, so that Aitian then becomes more competitive relative to the developmation with with the infrastructure or technical debt.

And you know, I think that is a again great way to look at it. The other thing I would add there is this idea of dollar derivatives not being built on the bitcoin blockchain UM. Typically with a lot more yield you can hold whatever USDC. There's a million stable coins out there that offer some yield that you cannot get in the traditional banking system. So that's an added inducement for people to migrate from legacy banking infrastructure

into something bitcoin or even crypto related. UM. That's something to watch for. UH. And this idea of neutral settlement network neutral settlement layer, you know what bitcoiners often call

bitcoin money for enemies. That's very valuable, right. You want to be able to trade with everyone, but you want to be able to do it in a way that you don't have to trust anyone, and that's what bitcoin ultimately is that you get to trust the math, the self interests of market participants, um and thermodynamics effectively through its its supply, security, energy expenditure, and that gives it a very potent reputation as money. Right, It's like something

no one can control. No political attack vector or organization can change the rules. That's a very big deal because it is effectively what was Russia doing. They were playing in a certain financial network and then the rules were changed on them, like oh, you're now ejected from the game, or you've lost your points, or whatever analogy you want to use here. Everyone has this demand to play the game of fixed rules. So Bitcoin, it's such a brilliant innovation.

It's almost established a reputation so free of counterparty risk that it's more like the sun coming up right, you don't you know there's gonna be a block average with every ten minutes. That's all it does, and that there's literally the only thing it does, and holds a supply cap of twenty one million, and no one can change it.

Like that's the whole value prop So I think the more conflict and tension we have individually, geo, politically, whatever layer, the more demand you're creating for that neutral settlement territory. And ultimately, you know, as you're pointing out, you know, Daly was brilliant. These guys have thought about it a lot, but they missed the technological piece. I guess that this is not on them. This is a human thing. We

were really bad at prognosticating the future. You look at go back into the fifties or the seventies and look at you know, sci fi future films. We're blasting around rockets all over the universe space like, but no one had the handheld supercomputer. You know, we didn't know social media. There's predictions that have been closer. Like I talked about the sovereign individual a lot. They predicted some of these things in like nineties seven, so say, a couple of

decades before they transpired. But looking into the deep future, I think it's much harder to tell where we're going. Um but looking and so that should give us all some pause and humility as looking at as guys that look into the future. But yeah, but before the norm, I would say here that seems to be I don't want to say irrefutable, but very common, is it? Societies tend to have hard money, all right, Hard money is

the norm of human history. We're using gold for five thousand years, We've had this Fiat anomaly for just a few hundred, so it would seem to me like when trust is being lost, we're going to revert back to the mean and hard money. The difference in a guy like Dally on my own thinking is I just think

bitcoin is disruptive to gold. I don't think. I think gold has failed basically, and so we need something new, and I can't see what that would be other than bitcoint I have a lot more to go over with Robert Breedlove here, so make sure you stick around as we dig more into this. I'll be right back, all right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Moa Show. I am joined in the studio with one of my buddies, Robert Breedlove, one of the best thinkers in the bitcoin space.

One more topic to discuss that's a little bit different but maybe somewhat related is um elon musk and Twitter mm hm and um. The one thing that I see, Well, there's a lot of things that I see. There a lot of a lot of angles that we could take with that, but specific the angle that I'm thinking about is so if, um, if money is communication, the bitcoin network is a better network that communicates money or information better? Um, the Elon must take over of Twitter has had a

lot of pushback. People are working on Twitter say they're going to quit, uh, you know, things like that. And one thing that's been kind of I've been thinking about is like man, he said that he wants to take it over to help have more free speech. He doesn't like the censorship. That seems to be his big gripe. Uh, there's too much censorship. I want to have more free speech.

And so it seems like all these people that are pushing back on that are saying we don't want free speech and if money is speech right or communication And is this just a small little microcosm that's an anomaly that shouldn't be looked at, or or if we should care about or do you think there's something bigger where maybe people don't want freedom of speech and we don't need this freedom of communication even in money. I mean, people are opposed to Canadians or or Russia getting out

of sanctions, which is kind of the same thing. Almost. Yeah, it's honestly scary because I would argue that, well, it was someone tweeted this. Whether Elon successfully takes over Twitter or not, he's sort of forced all of the people that believe in censorship or are anti free speech to show their cards, because if you're against his private takeover of a business at a premium to all the shareholders,

I mean, you don't get it. Right, that's anti capitalism, anti competition, anti civilization even right, that's fast, it's fascism ultimately, because now who's at vanguard steps in and bought a stake to basically against the bat and and the reason they don't want it is because he's offering to have freedom of speech exactly exactly. They want to keep their hands on the censorship lovers. And Twitter is the biggest

media platform in the war world. Jeff Bezos bought Washington Post and nobody cared about that because he didn't want freedom of speeches. That's I guess that's the attack, right, the freedom of speech. Yeah, and Twitter, in my opinion,

is the most important media outlet in the world. I mean, there's things with bigger user bases and bigger revenue, but um, in terms of ideas being exchanged, I think Twitter has the most density for that um and the censorship has been rampant frankly, so I it's very encouraging in a way that a guy like Ellen is standing up for the freedom of speech and really putting his money where his mouth is. Elon does not funk around, which you know,

he's someone else twe did this. Elon was the first guy that got rich and actually did cool ship with

his money. Yeah, I think that's pretty well said. But ultimately this all grounds out on Bitcoin again though, because even if Ellen takes over successfully and tries to reincorporate the principles of speech, he's still going to have pressure from the state, you know, the state broadly, you know multiple states that that Twitter is operating within to sensors certain people about certain things, and so that it will become the arbiter of truth he or his his management team,

and Bitcoin just again obviates the need for all this. It's like, if we can build communication platforms media platforms on top of bitcoin that are transmitting micropayments of SATs with these each message. You can basically make messaging unstoppable, as unstoppable as the money itself, and in doing so, you can implement actual free speech in the digital domain. So we don't even have to have the conversation of

censorship anymore. It's just like you can speak as freely in real life as you can and on on Twitter or the bitcoin equivalent. If bitcoin would be like digital cash, so it's peer to peer, so it's almost like cash, but digitally where I could give it to you and there's nobody in between to stop a lack can prevent it. Um. It could also move um conversation almost as I'm talking to you peer to peer with nobody in between that could stop it. Black and are prevented. That's right, and

it changes the game for a lot of things. Changes the game for podcasting, you know, like stream SATs to listen to podcasts. Um Peters and I talked about us in our interview. He thinks that all the social media bullying has to do with the fact that there's zero cost of messaging. There's no cost to being a schmuck on Twitter. But you would never say those those would never say the same thing in her life because they

get punched in the face, especially not to you. So and Saylor went deep on this in our series together or he talks about Twitter implementing bitcoin to have like the orange check or the blue check and basically a skin in the game reputation system that would cleanse the quality of discourse online. And I think it's brilliant. Also, I think it's almost as as inevitable as bitcoin, because again,

people want that. People want a place you could just speak freely and interact without the throw of censorship or any top down control like that's that's a universal that's in universal demand. Let's say even the people that want to censor others like they don't they themselves do not want to be sensors. So when that domain opens that can sense or no one, everyone's gonna migrate there. It's the same dynamic, same reasons people are adopting bitcoin, people

adopt bitcoin based media. Yeah, and I know we're both friends with Justin over at Zion and both involved in that. So shout out to Zion because they're hoping to bring that, helping to bring that, and so um, we're going to see more and more of that. Well, I think with that we'll go ahead and sign it off. We've covered a lot of ground, always of pleasure, um talking to you.

We referenced obviously your show What Is Money and the upcoming uh with the release I should say, of your interview with with Jordan Peterson, So definitely check that out. Anything else you want to bring attention to. No, man, it's been great talking to you. Um. You know, the sub stack is the Freedom antiox that's linked on Twitter profile. So if you want to follow the reading more than

the talking, that's another option. And uh no, we're gonna be releasing I did five in person interviews in Miami, so we're gonna be releasing those over the next few weeks. Um. I hope, I hope everyone likes them. Feel free to engage let me know Hi. Robert. Always a pleasure, Thanks so much, Thank you Mark. All Right, you've been listening to the Mark Moss Show. I've been joined in the studio with Robert Breedlove, the host of the What Is

Money Show and podcast. Make sure to check Robert out and shoot us some message on Twitter and tell us you heard us on the Mark Moss Show. That's what we got for you today. I appreciate you listening until next time.