The Mark Moss Show Nov 24, 2021

That's h O d L Miss Hotel of course. If you don't know what that means, that's hold on for dear life. That's the term that we use in the bitcoin space for hanging on really strong and not not having weak paper hands. Um. Anyway, Justine, thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me here. And yes, we all hold on for dear life. But yeah, I have. I've always joked that I hoddle all the things, so it seems to fitting. Yeah, thanks

so much for having me. Yeah, man, I love trading stuff back and forth with you online, so that would be so fun just to have you in and just kind of talk about what's going on, you know, I'm just trying to keep everybody up to date on what's going on in the bitcoin and decentralized revolution space. And you know, I'm bringing everybody the latest news each and every week so they can stay on top of it. Of course, not everybody lives in the space like we do.

And you know, one of the articles I was reading this week that kind of caught my eye, UM was it was on the Wall Street Journal. I mean, this is really starting to get mainstream. Uh. It's kind of the first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then they have to kind of join you. And of course that's kind of where the Wall Street fits in. And there's this article that says that you know, more players that were getting to

arrive in the world of digital assets um. And it says at the beginning of a person's journey into the world of cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin, UM, a wallet often refers to what a traditional bank or brokerage account already does, and it holds a customer's assets UM And I think, like, um, you know, I think there's a big misconception that a lot of people have when they come in is that, you know, we're so used to kind of growing up and how a bank works, and they bank holds our money, right,

I don't want to put it in my mattress. I put it in a bank, UM. And they think about the same way about bank When I buy bitcoin, whether I buy that on robin Hood or or or um you know, cash app or whatever, that's like kind of leaving it on a bank there. And and I know that's a big misconception. What do you think about that? I think it's a big misconception as well. UM. I think one of the most beautiful things about bitcoin is our ability to truly own an asset for the first

time in history. And part of that UM is being able to not be cut off from this asset. So in a traditional banking system, that bank holds that asset and UM, you're trusting for it to be there and for you to have access to it when you need it. And bitcoin essentially solves that issue by you holding the keys to this address or wallet UM and therefore cannot

be cut off your from your wealth. So I do think it's a normal UM in an individual's bitcoin journey to start out with their assets, you know, on an exchange they purchase in bitcoin somewhere sitting there, and then as I learn more and more, I do feel that self custody is a very, very and step to take and something I'm super passionate about. Um So, I do believe that everybody is capable to hold the keys to their own bitcoin well. And I love to see things

like this in the All Street Journal. Um I love that we're going mainstream in this way, but I do think it's really vital important to educate individuals on those differences and the importance of digging into health crustody for sure. Yeah, I mean you're the perfect perfect person to talk to about this, as as you work for Unshamed Capital. I know you guys offer solutions for that, but you know, I like to try to think about things in terms of, like,

what's the problem that we're trying to solve. Right today, we have all this money slash around the system. It's all trying to solve problems that we don't need. And it's like, you know, bitcoin came to solve a massive problem, which was being able to custody my own assets, and uh, it allowed me to store my wealth in a way that can't be stolen or manipulated. And so if that's the and actually I've I've talked a lot about this. I think that's the oldest problem in humanity, um since

the beginning of time. Someone's gonna come steal my chickens or you know, still my goats. And so we make a we make a collective, and then a village, and then the kingdom and then the country, and we're removing the oldest problem that man has has had. So like, why wouldn't we want to take advantage of that? Didn't that the whole they were trying to solve? Absolutely? And I think sometimes people think of extremes, right like, oh, well, you know the six change, What's what are the chances

actually are getting hacked? What are the chances of me losing assets? Um by losing access? And I think history tells us it's actually a very probable thing that we should be concerned about. I mean, we could go back to Executive Order two. If you have any gold holders out there, I'm sure you're very familiar with that. But even today, you know, UM banks cut off your access.

Maybe you did some transactions they didn't like, maybe you know, for whatever reason, you're going against the fold of it, and they can essentially say, you know, no longer can have access to these banking facilities. We have millions of

people who are banked around the world. So I think it is a real problem, and I think the point does solve that as well as, of course, you know, solving the issue of a hard money asset, but having the ability to fully hold the wealth in our hands and have no way of being cut off from it. I think it's a huge, huge part of it as well,

And so yes, I think it's extremely important aspect of it. Yeah, yeah, you know, I've actually been in court all week virtually I'm not supposed to be talking about it, but I'm actually in a lawsuit with an exchange I'm not going public with about yet because some of my assets disappeared out of their mysteriously. This is a couple of years ago. Um and if it if it can happen to me, it can happen to anybody. Um. So so there's that. But I think, you know, it's it's even bigger than that.

To write where you referenced the Executive Order six o two, so basically that's back in three the government took everyone's goals away and uh, a lot of people. Raydalio I made a video about Rayal because he said that the government will make bitcoin illegal just like they did gold. Um,

and the same reason why they did with gold. But they may they were able to make gold illegal because it was already in the banks and they went into a bank holiday where they shut the banks down and then when they reopened them, uh that you couldn't get their gold out. But if they had to go like across the prairie from ranch to ranch to rants with people with guns and collect gold, it probably never would

have happened. No, absolutely, So that's a single point of failure, right, So the bank became our single point of failure because it was holding all of our assets. Um. And I do feel like exchanges are that same uh have that

same issue as as that traditional banks do. So I feel like if you're getting into bitcoin, it's okay to be slightly intimidated by self crustody, but you do need to understand how vital it is because it's one of the factors the bitcoin that is extremely empowering, and that's something at Engine Capital that we are Our goal essentially is to help empower people to hold their wealth and then of course offer additional services, but holding those keys

step one. That's the whole foundation, and so trying to empower people to do that because it is the most important part. Yeah, And I guess the big thing that people have to kind of think through is like custodial or non custodial like and I guess it really comes down to do who holds the key? Right? Do I have it myself or am I trusting somebody else? And I guess they both have their pros and cons um and I guess you just kind of kind of think

through which one suits your your particular needs. Yep. Everything has trade offs, especially bitcoin. So I think it's one of those things that there are services and sometimes you want to you want to give up a little bit to get those services. It just depends on each individual. But also, yeah, you've got to kind of think of like why are you holding bitcoin? Are you holding bitcoin because it's the hardest money that's ever existed and nobody

can cut you off from it? Well, hey, then you probably shouldn't have it around exchange that you could easily be cut off on that. So yeah, I just think it's it's something that we all have to think about, and it is completely different than the traditional legacy system and how we're used to dealing with things. Um. But yeah, it's it's that single point of failure. I think we a hundred years ago, everybody was sort of holding their assets, right, so this idea of turning over to the bank was

not something people wanted to do. And so we sort of have to retrain ourselves to what it feels like to actually own an asset, and personal responsibility comes along with that. But there is, in my opinion, uh, financial

freedom that comes along with it with that responsibility. Yeah, if you think about, um, you know, way back, you know whatever, hundred fifty years ago, people would just hold hold gold, that would gold was money, and he would you know from movies or whatever, you see they have like a treasure a treasure map, Right, they'd go bury their gold and then they'd have like this map and that's how they would secure it by hide and I suppose, but we've always had that problem, um, and so I think,

you know, we've needed a bank to store that because of course we can't secure it properly. But now it's just so easy and it costs no money. It Uh, there's there's no security it's involved, um, just a little bit of effort. I want to get into some of the steps, UM that maybe you could help us think through as far as custody or non custody. When we get back, Um, you're listening to the Mark Mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin and we're talking about cryptocurrencies. We're

talking about the d centralized Revolution. Of course, each and every week, I'm with my good friend Justine Harper. You can find her on Twitter at miss Hotel M s h O d L. She's with Unchained Capital. UM. I just brought her on to have a good talk and just so happens, this story is right up her alley. We'll be back with more on how to secure your bitcoin when we get right back. Hey everyone, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Mo Show. We're talking

about bitcoin and cryptocurrency and the D Centralized Revolution. And I tell you each and every week, this is the biggest movement. This is the biggest shift we've ever seen in humanity that we'll ever see. And of course, the way to take advantage of it is to have information that most people don't have, which is why you should be here with me at this time. Each and every week, so we'll paull out your phone set a reminder for this channel for this time slot. UM. I'm here with

my good friend Justine Harper. You can find her on Twitter at miss Hotel, ms h O d L at Misshold of course, UM at one Mark moss UM. If you'd like to give us a follow, shoot us a question and tell us you heard us on the radio, that would be awesome. But we were talking about before the break this Wall Street Journal article that came out talking about how people coming into bitcoin um or have to think about wallets. UM. So it's interesting that they

brought that kind of to the forefront UM. And one of the distinctions that they made, or they said that people should think about would be UM custodial or non custodial and UM. I think at the end of the day, really that comes down to who holds the key. So they say, you know, not your keys, not your coin. Uh. So to speak Justine, UM, when you think about non custodial wallets, UM, I guess typically I would think about like apps on a phone that I would like download,

like an app UM. But I guess even like coin base would also probably be considered a non custodial wallet. Right, so I think coin base has a non custodial function. Um, they do have like a separate wallet that does allow you to hold the keys. UM, and we may take a couple of steps back. I'm not sure how what level of understanding the audience is that, but essentially bitcoin, you know, essentially lives on a network. Whoever holds the keys to this address can move funds and therefore prove

ownership by signing a t briansaction with these keys. UM. So when you have funds on an exchange, they're holding bitcoin, you have an IOU next your name that says this is how much you own, and you're asking them for permission to move those funds. Holding your own keys or self custody essentially means you hold those keys and therefore there's no middle lamp. And so when you move over to a non custodial wallet, that essentially means when you set up this wallet, you were given a set of keys.

In bitcoin, keys sometimes look like something called seed phrases, which is a list of twelve to twenty four words. It's essentially a code or algorithm that represents this long string of characters that is your keys. So um, if you have not been given those seed phrases when you set up this wallet, you don't have the keys. So you can find into mobile apps which we would call like a hot wallet, um. Great ones would be like

blue wallet, Green wallet, Moon wallet um. And then you have custodial services who hold those keys for you, which when I think of that, you have exchanges. This article is talking about banks doing this. Perhaps you know there are a lot of uh companies that do this for you. Then you can go and even step further and do something called hardware wallets, which means you're holding your keys on a separate device, not on your phone, not online um.

And it's just a small user interface exactly that allows you to interact with those keys and stores them securely. So that's my that's my quick spiel on on how those work. But yes, essentially, when I think of non custodio, I think of someone who some sort of entity that's offering a wallet software for you to use while you hold the keys, um, rather than custodio like an exchange that's that's just holding the asset for you. You know, I think about as I was saying, but I think

before the in the last section before the break. Um, it really solves the oldest problem that mankind has had is how can I store my property in a way that it can't be stolen from me? So bitcoin solves that problem, and that's definitely one way, one reason to custody. I also think about it another way, um, kind of

we talked about with the golden situation. Now they stole the gold, and I'd like to say that centralization always leads to manipulation, and so um, you know, almost we have a responsibility, well we should want to take custody of our assets because we can, and it solves that problem. But we also seem to, probably at least myself, I'm curious where you're at, but probably have like this responsibility

to hold these financial firms responsible. And so um, when we allow them to centralize all our assets, they'll start to manipulate it, just like they did with gold. They started printing too many gold certificates. Um. And so you know, we have in the in the gold paper market, there's like five hundred paper ounces for everyone physical ounce being sold.

And now we're starting to see like bitcoin, ETFs and all these types of things, and like we can just pull our bitcoin off the exchange and like we can hold them accountabill make sure they're like playing by the rules all the time. I mean, do you think that's a big piece of that as well? Yes, I think it's a huge piece. I think when we go back in um in history and like how did we get here, right,

we all used gold independently. We used to chip those chips off of our gold block right to transact with people, and then we found an easier way to solve this issue of transacting by giving the bank our gold and they give us a piece of paper that was redeemable for that gold. And then the the issue rise like

you speak of that. Now they had all this gold and they were, you know, doing paper or coins, and they could decide what percentage of gold or asset was within those right, how much did you get in return? And that led to printing. You know, they can they can print endless amounts of this helicopter paper money right anytime they want, and we have no ability to you audit that supply, We have no ability to demand those assets.

We're just sort of in their hands. So I think the point is very different even in the way of using these sort of third parties is that you can't you can't make more bitcoin. You can independently audit the supply, you can see it publicly where it sits, and so they are held to a higher standard. But I do think that if we get into a habit of always relying on these third parties, we're going to find our thoughts self in a situation of that centralized entity and

single point of failure. And that, in my opinion, is why self custody, even if you start off very simply should be the adiable for everyone. Yeah. Yeah, we gotta keep these uh got to keep these uh institutions accountable. I mean, otherwise we just have only ourselves to blame. You know, in the past, it wasn't our fault, you know, especially in futures um commodity, so bitcoin is considered a commodity,

So oil, wheat, you know, things like that. We we can't take delivery of oil, like what am I going to do with that? And so you know you're kind of stuck with that. Even gold, like how do I take delivery of the gold? Um that we can take delivery of bitcoin with just clicking a button and it doesn't cost us anything, and so um. I guess man, if people don't want to take the responsibility to do that, they probably deserve what they're gonna get. Well, first of all, like,

are you saying you can't independently audit the supply of oil? Mark? Like what are you doing with yourself? Um? But yes, so I do think that, like I said, everything has trade offs. Um. I do think that there will be people who just get exposed to bitcoin or crypto um through these third parties. But you're just getting financial exposures. So maybe it's about price action, right, You're not getting the benefits of a decentralized asset that you can own.

You only get that if you are holding the keys. Um. But yes, we can hold them accountable because they can't just make up a number on a spreadsheet anymore. Right, we're taking that ability away from them. And that's what the point does is it aligns the incentives and allows us to audit absolutely everything. Yeah, that's a good point.

When when you buy it on on exchange, like well, not exchange, but like a robin Hood for example, or a cash app, um, you're not really or PayPal, I think, uh, some of those they don't allow you to withdraw it. So kind of to the point you just made, you're getting exposure to the price of bitcoin um, but you're not really participating in this decentralized revolution that's actually happening.

You're not you're not you're not doing anything revolutionary. All you're literally doing is gambling and just betting on the price. And so that's that's a good point. So definitely think about one where you buy it. I mean, you should buy it at a place that allows you to withdraw it, and then of course the next step is to withdraw it. Maybe start small, right, I get it, it's scary. I've lost a lot of bitcoin um, anybody who's been in the space long enough has and so so start small

doing that. I want to switch gears. I want to jump into some big news that happened this week. One of bitcoin's biggest people talk to one of the uh I don't know, psychology philosophies, world's biggest people, and there were some really good nuggets with that. You listen to the Mark Moss Show and with Justine Harper Misshotel and we're gonna be right back, all right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark ma Show, where we talk about bitcoin each and every week. We talked about bitcoins

and cryptocurrencies, decentralized revolution. We're talking about this entire movement that's going on. I'm here every week trying to give you the asymmetric information so you can participate in this asymmetric opportunity. I'm here with my good friend Justine Harper. You can find her on Twitter at Misshotel that's m s h O d l UM. I gotta warn you though, she can be a little snarky sometimes, but I love it.

I love the doctor, so I'm so happy that she's here. UM. We were talking about UM this Wall Street Journal article about UM how to custom your coin and how to think through different types of wallets. She's the perfect perfect person to talk to about that because as she works for unchained Capital, which is a company that I used to help me secure my bitcoin. So check them out when you get a chance. Unchained Capital. UM, Justine, I

want to talk about something else. So there's an article or actually, something big happened this week, and that was Jordan Peterson, who most people probably know by now, probably doesn't need a big introduction of who he is. UM probably one of the smartest people. I mean, I mean there's there's there's all different types of genius, I suppose, UM, but man, I think the world needs more people like Jordan Peterson, or at least we need him around for

quite a bit longer to help educate people. UM. And he sat down with with Safety and Safety and Mos who's is a big bitcoin also kind of a philosopher, Austrian economist, UM, and it made made made big waves and I thought there were some really good things that came out of it. So a couple of things I saw was like Jordan Peterson kind of had this uh, this kind of aha moment. UM. Did you watch first of all, did you watch when he talked with a breed Love and Jon Wallace and all those guys you

catch that? Yes? Yeah, no, that was great from a book club like this started as a book club and then somehow which is just so these are the these are some of the most amazing people in bitcoin, um talking to as you mentioned, like a man who needs no introduction. So it was definitely one of those moments that was like beautiful for everyone involved. But yes, so this is another one of those moments for sure. Yeah, it was so good. You know, because I love Jordan

Pearson because he's so so smart. Um. But at the same time, he doesn't like rely on like I'm so smart, I know everything. He's actually very inquisitive, right, he loves to ask questions. He's a great interviewer because of that, um and and and uh yeah, there was probably probably not many people better equipped to talk to him than Breed Love and Valae because they were able to talk

to him like on that level. While I would love to talk to him, I don't think I could talk to that same level like they were able to match him, you know. Kind of That's how I felt about anyway. Absolutely no. They have this way of like a very intellectual almost spiritual way of discussing things, and I feel like that's how he is. And they all also sort of practiced this extreme ownership way about them um, which that's one of the things I really love about Pearson um.

But they do as well. So I thought that was a great match. And then safe Adan, who's one of my favorite people in the space. If you want to talk about Stark the a k A. Passionate, he's definitely one of those people. It's probably why we get along so well, so this was a great one. Um, that aha moment was amazing. But yes, I'll let you continue. But yeah, I'm right there with you. This was one of those moments that's like, Wow, I can't believe this

is happening. Yeah, shout out to safety and too. You follow him on Twitter as well. He wrote the book The Bitcoin Standard, which is uh. I mean everybody should anyone listen to this at this point right now, should get that book, The Bitcoin Standard. He just released a new book I've pre ordered. I haven't got my copy yet, but it's called The Fiat Standard, which I'm sure is going to be equally as good. Um, so everybody check

that out. But you know, one of the things about Jordan Peterson, if you if you watch his content, is uh, he's got a lot of haters for because he doesn't tell people that it's okay, it's not your fault. He doesn't pander to that victim mentality, which I know you don't either. He's like, shut up, this is the hand that you're dealt like, deal with it, right, And so he's like a very matter of fact about things, which I I resonate with. I think more people need to

hear UM. And and one of the things that I think, you know, as he was going through this, he said, he's like safety and said, like, there's no insiders in bitcoin. Bitcoin only has users. There's no admins. UM, there's nobody with a master key. There's nobody that controls it. And I think that was like a pretty big aspect that Jordan Peterson hit. And that's something that I think you and I talked about a lot. What does that mean that it has no admin, no insiders, Well, there's nobody, Uh,

there's no centralized insitu. Right Like we kind of joke that bitcoin doesn't have a marketing team. But you know what else it doesn't have is some like terrible CEO telling us all what direction it's going to go in, right like, it truly is UM decided by the by consensus, which is the individuals running the software. And so there is no there's first no one who can just decide

that you no longer can use bitcoin um. But also there's no one making these decisions, which does sometimes, uh look interesting as we all sort of figure it out. I think that a centralization sometimes can look smoother from the outside looking in UM, but it also has you know, it has a lot of downfall with the hitolized nature. So I do think that both of these individuals talk

a lot about personal responsibility. So I think that that's something obviously that would come up about bitcoin because bitcoin is, you know, personal responsibility. You get absolute freedom if you're willing to take on that personal responsibility. Um, and yeah, there's nobody, there's nobody that can stop you from using bitcoin. Then I love that contrast. Like you said, right, like you get ultimate freedom, but you have to be willing

to take the responsibility. And I think a lot of times today people want the freedom, but they don't want the responsibility. Like I want ability to do this, but if something bad happens, then I want you to be responsible for it. Kind of a thing. Uh. Maybe that's why some people don't get bitcoins. I I think so very much. Um, I think that this sort of isn't

just about bitcoin though. I think this idea of personal responsibility you can have these things, but you have to work for them is sort of something that we've moved away from in society. I mean, if you look at and then this is sort of my background. Before I got into bitcoin, I was very much into homesteady and

trying to figure out how to remove the middleman. And you know, this is why I was a gold holder, and I was like trying to learn how to, you know, replace products from the store with things I would buy or I'm sorry make instead of purchase. And so, like with everything in life, there is there's a balance, right, there's a trade off. If you want this freedom, you have to work a little bit harder. If you want this this pro you have to sort of work for it.

And so bitcoin is that way. Um, it's one of those things that you can have the ultimate financial freedom, but yeah, it's not gonna be handed to you. There are some steps you have to take. And I do think that we as a society of falling away from personal responsibility and extreme ownership kind of like what you mentioned is like you're responsible for the things you do, and you're also response well for the outcome of your life.

There are things bumps along the way, and how you deal with them sort of defines who you are as an individual. But at the end of the day, it's you and what you choose to do makes you who you are. Um, And I think that resonates a lot with individuals who kind of get into bitcoin. Is that like, oh, I I can choose how much freedom I have here. I it's it's here. I can use it. I can do whatever I want with it. I can, I can use it in different levels. Right, But it's up to

me to actually take those steps into it. Yeah, and that goes back to what we're talking about in the earlier segment about the custody. Right, you have to have that responsibility. You want on to say that the aspect that and um, any user is seen and treated equally by the bitcoin network, which is super powerful. Right, it's revolutionary. Everyone is is is equally. Um. The fiat currency is opposite. So the people that produce the money and our closest

to the money supply get unequal treatment. Uh. There's just not a system that's fair at all. Yeah. I am one of my favorite bitcoin scenes. UM. I do actually have this as a little sign on my bookshelf is Bitcoin doesn't care. And what I think that means is that like bitcoin doesn't care where you came from. It doesn't care about your race, your gender, it doesn't care about your income level. It is equal to all. It is the ultimate equalizer. Everyone has the equal chance to

partake in the network. Anybody can run the software very easily and cheaply at home. Um, and you have the same access as anyone else. And no matter if someone owns more than you, it doesn't matter. They don't get to decide what happens to your state just because they own more. Uh. They don't decide what happens to your asset because they don't like you. You know, Bitcoin is for enemies that you don't get to decide who uses it and how. Uh. And so I do truly believe

it's the ultimate equalizer. And I find that extremely revolutionary. I mean, there's there's places in the world that women aren't allowed to have bank accounts, but they can have a bitcoin wallet, they can hold the keys, they can take their wealth across uh, you know, state or country lines and nothing can stop them. And and that's that's so revolutionary. I love that you said, um, nobody can say who has it, how or or how they use it.

That's an important piece. I want to come back. I want to talk about that and a couple other things that Jordan Peterson said that some of his big AHA moments, because I think maybe the people listening we'll have some more of those aha moments as well. If you're listening to the Mark mos Show, we're talking about bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and of course this giant decentralized revolution. I'm with

Miss Justine Hotel. Miss Hotel, I'm sorry, Justine Harper. UM. We're talking about bitcoin and we will be right back. All right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Moa Show and we're talking about bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and the decentralized revolution. I'm in the studio with my good friend Justine Harper. You can find her on Twitter at miss Hotel. UM. Of course, I am one Mark Moss on Twitter. Find us, follow us, shoot us a question,

tell us you heard us here. Justine worked for Unchained Capital, which the company I used helped me secure my bitcoin. We're talking about that in the earlier segment, but right now we're talking about UM. One of the greatest thinkers alive today, UM Jordan Peterson. UM was matched up with another awesome great thinker, Safety UM, in the bitcoin space, and it was really cool, Um to listen to some

of the experts and to order to watch it. If you've got to do that, of what happened, because you're watching Jordan Peterson this, you know, one of the smartest guys in the world, but also still very curious. Um kind of have these realizations and he said, like, Um, from the mainstream perspective, money is the creation of the state. Most people think, from the mainstream perspective that money is the creation of the state, and the only question is

what is the state's role in the management of money? Right, that's what safe safe said, but but from it. But really money is the product of the market and not the invention of the state. And I think that's one thing that most people just have never really even taken

the time to think about. Like we just think like, well, the government makes money, they print money, they control money, they control interest rates, they control the supply, and we're just victims along like a ship without a rudder, just whatever they decided to do to us. But it's like, no, that's not how it is. It's not how it should be, and that's not how it has to be. And now

we have another option for that. Yeah, And I think it's interesting to think about how they've kept it that way, right, Like it takes a lot of energy and a lot of effort to ensure that their money is what everyone's using, right, that this is the the account that we're using, right, the form of money that we're using. And yeah, I

mean money is just decided by the market. Whatever is the most usable, whatever is the better store of value, whatever is the better too easier to transact, whatever the masses choose to use is essentially that's that's the history

of money, right is it's used as a transfer of wealth. Um. So yeah, this idea that it's it's um produced by the government and decide it by the government is something I think we've all just sort of accepted, but we don't have to, and I think that quite sort of allows us to easily opt out of that, in my opinion, very flawed structure and the idea of what money should

be today. Yeah, you know, one thing that the our our leaders want to tell us, right is that you know, we need to regulate it because if not, things could get really bad. Um. People, But before the break, I think you had said, um, we you know, we have the money and we can use it however we want, right, whoever whoever wants to use it. As you kind of reference, in some countries women can't have bank accounts. Whoever wants it,

so women and however they want. And I think they try to scare people by saying, oh, but terrorists are going to use it, They're gonna use money for all these really bad things, um, and and that could happen, right,

I mean that could happen. Um. But I think you have to look at like a cost benefit analysis, right, So, like, um, for the for the very few people that may potentially do something bad with it, which will find another way anyway, what's the greater good that could come from it, right versus trying to prevent people from using it, which you really can't anyway, and then you're penalizing everybody else on

top of it, right, I mean that's a massive difference. Yes, agree, this is this is some of my favorite uh scare. But um, you know, like like somehow people aren't using dollars to do illegal things, right, Like like that's something that we're supposed to believe that these things aren't used already. So there was there was no crime before bitcoin, right never never know, the dollars have never been used in any sort of crime whatsoever. They're totally it's totally regulated.

But yeah, so I think it's sort of laughable. But I think this is one of those things where people use here to try to direct people in the way that they want them to go. And this is one of those things. And yes, I mean there will be a legal activity that happens in the form of bitcoin, right, we're using bitcoin is the money to pay for that, um. But if we we go to a place where now we get to decide who uses this form of money, well, then who gets to decide and who decides what's right

and wrong? And now we're back to where we are now, where we have um, you know, tyrants and government entities sort of discriminating against people by not allowing them to have access to banking facilities. And so I think that it's just a really dangerous slope that you go down. And I do agree with what he said that there's trade offs for everything. There's a balance of pros and cons and allowing anyone to transact is much more beneficial

than the idea that okay, somebody might use it illegally. Yeah, they used dollars for that. I I just it's it's one of those things where it's like on the if nobody is familiar with the fud dice Nick Carter came up with some dice that essentially have all of these like different sides of fud that kind of come up over and over again and are shot down, but they are reoccurring. But so this is one of those, and I think it is scary for people to think of.

But when you zoom out and think about how our current financial system works and think about the laws and having a system that can be controlled by centralized entity and people can be cut off for it for whatever reason they choose, Right, that's that's just not that's not positive for humanity. Um. It doesn't work out for the masses. Um. And in my opinion, it just leads to discrimination through

a financial system and essentially control. You know, people are controlled by their money, which is yeah, something I really think we have the chance that your away from the fiat money system. I think Jimmy Song put it in this book Thank God for Bitcoin is another good book you should probably all go read, and he talked about how people think that money is neutral, it's a tool can be used for good or bad. But but fiat money is not that. It's actually a system built on theft,

which inflation is theft. It's a system built on lies and deceit because they don't tell us what they're doing, they don't tell us how much there is. So it's a system built on theft, lies in the cit and so anything built on that is inherently evil and incentivizes evil behavior, incentivizes people to to to steal and and

to lie and to see etcetera. And so maybe a lot of the stuff they're trying to protect us from wouldn't really even be that big of a deal if we had an honest system that we could build the world off of, um like almost And to your point, I mean, those people could use bitcoin, but they probably drove a car too. Could the car have been you know, they probably drink waters water bad too, right, Like I mean, like how far do you want to go? They breathe? There?

Should we ban air to you know, like all those things? It's just yeah, yeah, I mean all those things have But but you wouldn't ban air because everybody needs air and air is better because we can live with air. So we'll have to do the trade offs. And and I guess the same you could say about having honest money, like an honest system of of ledger that people couldn't control UM so anyway, no, for sure, And I think that's one of those things that it's a nutrient and

we could dig into this. I know we could dig into this for a whild market. But if we start to think about how the dollar as used and what we as taxpayers fund, I mean, are we as individuals okay with all of the the how government is spending our funds? And I just mean, like what countries have we bonded this bomb this week? Right? Like? What have we paid for that was extremely evil? Um? And does

nobody question how their dollars are used? And so anytime that comes up, they think it's one of those things that it's really easy to scare people in that way. But if you just take a few minutes to kind of zoom out, you realize really quickly why that's not really a concern and it's actually a benefit of the network that nobody can decide you as an individual are now a trader or a quote unquote terrorists because you've said something on social media that they didn't like and

cut you off from your assets. So, in my opinion, is just a really dangerous lope that we've gone down. And and I just yes, it's open to all and that's beneficial. That's such a good point. Um, if you think about, um, what is the dollar? What is what does the dollar to allow? And so that's a great point. Um. I saw some stuff just I think the last day or two of what's going on with little girls in Afghanistan. I'm not going to repeat it because it was I

have I have girls and it was just devastating. But if you if you know what I'm talking about, I mean, if you saw what's going on Afghanistan with the little girls right now this week today, Um, and that's because of what the US has been doing in there with

their dollars, you know. And uh, it's if you want to start looking at cost benefit analysis, I think it's easy to see what happens when to to your point, Justine or your word of tyrants, um end up with an unlimited money supply and can manipulate everything, I mean, lockdowns and everything. Everything happens because of that money printer. And so that's what bitcoin is doing. Um, it's separating money, money and state, and uh it's it's something much bigger.

By the way, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show, if you haven't guests by now. Of course we're talking about bitcoin, we're talking about removing money and state. We're talking about the decentralized revolution. That's here. I'm in the studio with Justine Harper. You can find her on Twitter at miss Tootal. That's ms h O D l Um. Of course I'm one Mark Moss. She works at Unchained Capital if you want to check them out. And that's it. Thank you so much for listening.