The Mark Moss Show Dec 29, 2021

I'm not gonna give you the full wrap up right now, but you know, just to kind of figure out where we're at. I was looking back at the price, and um, we're pumping today. As a matter of fact, dang, we're up over a thousand dollars just since I've been talking to you guys. That's not too bad and I'll take that. Um, yeah,

not too bad at all. Actually, But if we look back through the let's let's call it the way back machine, and if I look back to about a year ago with the price of I'm sorry, two years ago, the price of bitcoin was about thousand dollars. If we go back to one year ago, yeah, where we are about twenty three thousand dollars one year ago, So twenty three thousand. You know, now we're here, let's see. So that's about If you go to we're a hundred percent a year,

it's not bad. I'll take that. If we go back to two years ago, you know, we're at about seven thousand dollars, so looking pretty good. And yeah, the price is pumping as we speak. Maybe maybe, just maybe we're gonna get into one of these, uh, these end of year rallies. We've seen bitcoin move thousands and thousands of dollars in a single month. That's one of the reasons why you don't really want to trade bitcoin. I know, when you look at the technical analysis, you look at

like a chart, and it's very vaultile. It is, it goes up and down all the time. And when you look at it. Of course, the in life, hindsight is is hindsight is clear. I mean, you look at you like, dang, if I could have just sold it here and then I could have bought it back here, and then I could have sold it here, and I gotta bought it here, and it looks so easy. And of course you hear all these stories of people doing all this and whatever. The reality is is that it's very difficult now there's

been numerous studies done in the stock market. I don't have them pulled up in front of me, but numerous studies in the stock market that shows like over the last like not knockouting this year, that was crazy, but but before this year, if you look back over like the last like thirty or forty years, you know they've had an average turn of whatever eight eight percent um.

But if you would have missed like the best twenty days of stock market performance in those like thirty years, your turn drops from like eight percent to like four percent. And if you miss like the top the best twenty days out of that thirty year thing, then your returns were flat. And if you missed like the best thirty days, then you actually lost money. And that's like so sitting out of sitting out of the market for only twenty days could have effectively wiped out all of your gains.

And that's in the normal stock market, which isn't near as volatile as bitcoin is. But bitcoin moves super super fast. And so for example, I can look back over here, if I'm looking at the chart here back to where was this sept number September um. I mean, in one day, the price of bitcoin shot up, sent it dropped, it jumped two's out two thousand dollars in almost a single day. And here we are. You know, we've rallied, uh we rout rally like three thousand dollars since I've been talking

to you guys. And so if you were out and you're trying to trade that and you missed that three thousand dollar pump, um, I mean I would, I could set back your your gains big time. And so UM, in my opinion, there's better things to do with your time. There's much more productive things to do with your time. There's much more things that you can do to bring value to the world than sit there looking at these stupid charts all day long. Zoom out two years ago

seven thousand. Last year is about twenty tho and now we're over fifty thousand at the time we speak. So UM. That's that's some perspective that I would like to give you. Um. And we'll talk more about about that as we get later into the show, and to talk about some of the top five bitcoin stories of we're gonna dig into that. Before we do, I want to talk about something that's been pretty cool. I like to say that the price

is the distraction. I say that the best the two things you want to look at about the growth of the network and the development that's happening on the network. The growth of the network, you know, you can see through UM stories that pop up all over the place. So for example, this week I saw Visa partners with sixty crypto platforms to let consumers spend digital currency at

eighty million merchants. Man, that's big. Visas head of Crypto, has revealed that the payments giant has partnered with about sixty leading crypto platforms to launch card programs to make it easy for consumers to convert and spend digital currency at eighty million merchant locations worldwide. Emphasize we've built a lot of momentum in the space and will continue to

support the crypto ecosystem in several ways. That's big, right, That is going to bring more users, and so remember we're looking at the growth of the users and the development the network. So that's big. I mean that's big. That's UM eight million. Now, who knows how many customers go through those eighty million merchants, but I would imagine it's uh hundreds of millions, if not billions of people, and so that is going to increase the amount of users.

And then I want to look at the development on the network. And I talked about a couple of weeks ago, we talked about how Jack Dorsey, the founder CEO of Twitter, actually stepped down from Twitter, and he stepped down from Twitter to focus on bitcoin. He didn't he wanted to. He wanted to build out some bitcoin services. He renamed um Square the payment company to block and then he renamed them. He had another company called spiral Um. And since then, Jack has been going on quite the rampage.

As a matter of fact, he is going head to head with the tech bros as we might call them, the venture capitalists out of Silicon Valley, et cetera. Which, um, it's pretty interesting to see now. A lot of people had criticized Jack Dorsey because at the as the CEO of Twitter um, Twitter was not living up to its um original intention, which was supposed to be a platform for free speech. And Jack Dorsey is supposed to be this advocate for free speech and yet here he is

the CEO and he's he's censoring. I mean, they kicked off the active sitting president of the United States last year a long way away from being the quote unquote, you know, open free source of communication. But now that he has left, he stepped down to work on bitcoin, not crypto, just bitcoin. Um, we've seen some rapid changes happening on Twitter. As a matter of fact, they've started to censor people pretty pretty crazy. But he's also changed, and so the message that he's been sitting out has

been pretty radical. The other day, um, Cardi B and for any of my hip hop fans out there, Cardi B tweeted out and said something, Um, she said, will cryptocurrencies replaced the dollar? And Jack Dorsey replied and he said bitcoin will not crypto bitcoin will, and so um, after that exchange, we saw the price start pumping, and I tweeted out, I think I said, uh, I said, did uh? Did Jack Dorsey tweeting at the Cardi B drive the market higher? Just kind of a tongue in cheek.

By the way, if you're not following me on Twitter, you definitely should. I'm the number one Mark Moss at one Mark Moss just follow me there. Shoot me. Let me know you heard me on the radio. Asked me a question. I'll make sure to answer it. For you. Um, but anyway, it was kind of funny to see that happen. And since then he went on a rampage and what he's on a rampage over is what's called now what

these people are calling Web three point oh. Now, if you've been listening to me for a while, you know, I've been on the Internet for a long time, and uh, you know, we had the web, and then we had Web two point oh, and now we have Web three point oh, and like really just like the web. But anyway, um, there's this whole thing about Web three point oh and it's this the new crypto thing, and it's Web three point and it's bringing all this investment capital in, um,

you know. And so he went on this rampage on that and he said, quote, you don't own Web three point oh, says Jack Dorsey. He criticized its centralized nature. He said, quote, you don't. You don't own Web three The vcs and their LPs do. It will never escape their incentives. It's ultimately a centralized entity with a different label. Know what you're getting into? End quote um. And that was pretty cool. And then of course all the venture

capitalists came out and started attacking him for that. Um even um Balaji said, uh oh no, Um. Twitter was started as a protocol, and he said, dude, you're talking to the wrong guy. I'm the founder of Twitter. It was started as a company, a centralized company. And so the big thing here is that these venture capital funds are starting these web three which are quote unquote these cryptocurrencies. But to his point, it's ultimately a centralized entity with

a different label, meaning they control it. They control the amount of tokens that were printed, and they control what happens on that network moving forward. The different much different than bitcoin. Bitcoin nobody controls and I know, I know they use all these buzzwords and it's decentralized, don't you know. Market's decentral is decentralized governance right. Well, the very fact that it has governance tells you that it's not decentralized.

So somebody can control it. Who can control it? The person with the most tokens. Um, I'm gonna tell you more about what Jack said, and then I want to come back with the top five bullish stories of two thousan You listen to the Markma Show, We're talking about bitcoin, cryptocurrencies and the decentralized revolution. We'll be right back. Hey everyone, welcome back. You are listening to the Markma Show and we're talking about bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and the decentralized revolution

that's happening. I got one of my good friends, Justine that just joined me in the studio, Justine Harper. She works with Unchained Capital. We were just talking about some problems I had with my multi sig security earlier and she they managed to help me out. So that's pretty cool. But Justine, thanks so much for joining me, Thanks for having me, and Merry Christmas. Yeah, man, we are there.

I can't believe it, man, two thousand one, just I went by so fast that it's uh happened yeah, like um something, you know, the pandemic happened in March of last year, so it's been like almost two years, and um, I think it. I don't know, almost like slowed things down last year and now like things happened so fast. It's like, wow, I can't believe we like two years

into it, you know. I agree. I think I saw a meme the other day and it was like I'm still trying to process and wait, we're twenty two now, Like what's what happened, um, and I definitely can relate to that, like what has occurred? Um. Yeah, time flies, man, but yes, glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Crazy year in bitcoin, Yeah, it's crazy year in bitcoin, and so I thought it'd be fun just to kind of look back and talk about some of the big

stories that happened throughout the year. UM. I still am working on my kind of big moments for myself and what I'm expecting for next year. So probably next week we'll talk about that. But I was just kind of looking through some of the big stories and some of the big ones that kind of caught my eye I thought we'd just talked about. So I think the big one was probably price action, and that's typically one of

my least favorite ones to talk about. UM I called I called the bitcoin price like the bait and switch. You get baited in to try to make a bunch of money and then you get switched into the all the other all the other properties of bitcoin. But if we look at the price action of bitcoin, UM, I mean it did pretty good for the year. We're up and I was almost sevent it's actually on a run

right now today. UM, pretty crazy. But I think if we look back, if we zoom out and we look at the lowest price point every year, and so um, we went to was four bucks, sixty five bucks, two hundred bucks was the only year it was down from two thirty eight hundred, and then the lowest point last year was three This year was twenty seven thousand. So we're almost double that. I mean, that's pretty damn good growth.

I would say, yes, And this is why I laughed very hard any time we talk, like when we have any sort of a bearish day, right or a drop in the market, Oh, Bitcoin's dead, Bitcoin's over, And it's like, yeah, okay, so we're literally to the point where forty six thousand is dead. Bitcoin's dead. And then when you when you zoom out and look at where we were we're a year ago, it's it's worse. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm

with you. Um, prices irrelevant to me at this point, but I understand that it's not irrelevant to everyone, and it's a big factor into bringing people in, right, and it's important to sort of factor in bitcoin success from that. But I personally I don't care about the price. Do I have more SATs today? Than I do yesterday. But also it is kind of comical to look at where we've been, what the what the loads are for each year, and then just where we are now. It's it's, uh,

it's shocking. I mean I remember it's over nine d memes or nine thousand memes, right, um yeah, I mean like, how are how are we sitting here? And how is uh, how are people still doubting the the adoption of bitcoin at this point? I think it is pretty impressive. Yeah, And I love just the perspective. I mean when you zoom out and you're just like, you know, everyone's like,

it's it's too volatile. It's too volatile. It's not a good store voute because is too volatile, and never make it as meaning exchange, which you know, it's not maybe the best met to exchange today. It doesn't mean it won't be in the future, but as a store of value, it's like it's too volatile. It's like, well, it's been up every single year, you know, like that's a pretty damn good store of value in my opinion, you know, um right, I think it's average it's up two eage

year or something. I could be wrong on that. On that percentage, but it's like, yeah, when you zoom out, it goes up. I've joked about my my future t a podcast or YouTube channel where it's going to just be like, you know, it goes up and then it kind of like goes down for a little bit, and then it's just like it's continuously going up in an upward right position, you know direction, because yeah, yes it fluctuates, but it's it's up your after year and anyone holding

their wealth and pitcoin is doing pretty good. I think it's funny because I started buying bitcoin back when it was about three hundred bucks, and I've been trying to get friends of mine into it for a long time. And I don't really go super wide with my friends, but friends that are a little bit into kind of investing, I try to get dragging the man. And I remember one of my friends I finally convinced to buy it about four thousand dollars and then it dropped down to

and he was so mad at me. He hated me, like I I got him into the scam. He lost half his money. Like, dude, you bought in at four thousand, it's like fifty thousand a day, right, And I had another friend, Um, I got him to buy in January after bitcoin had blown off from twenty thousand, and he end up buying about I think fourteen fifteen thousand, and they continue to go down. Uh, and the same thing.

He's like, oh, you told me to buy, now all of it down, and I'm just like, I mean, people would be so happy to have bought it fifteen thousand a day, you know. And um, no matter how much they'd tell him like zoom out, have this long tip perspective, they don't do it. Um. But yeah, looking backwards, say, it's kind of funny. Oh, it's hard to do, I think, but it also is uh. I think it's it's almost a ride of passage, right, Like bitcoin makes sense for a long term, and I think it's really hard for

people to sort of zoom out. And so my mom the same way. I shouldn't say this, um, but you know, she finally bought at a certain price and didn't buy a lot, you know, but and then it immediately went down and she was like, oh, okay, UM, So I think it is it's hard to uh when you're stuck in the moment see it. But but yeah, I mean if you Look, you're after year, you're over year, You're

you're going to be fine. Yeah, we've all had well, if you've been in long enough anyway, we've all had those awkward Christmas and Thanksgivings where you have to sit around the table with your family and they're all down in their positions. Um, Luckily, my parents, man, they've got strong hands. Man, my my, my parents have held strong and they haven't they haven't wavered. And and so I gotta give him that. I guess they got me so. Um. By the way, you're listening to the Mark Ma Show,

I'm in the studio with Justine Harper. You can find her on Twitter at Misshotel M S h O d L. Give her a shout out and say hello. Um. We're talking about some of the top stories in bitcoin for two thousand twenty one. Another big one this year was Tesla adding bitcoin to its balance sheet. I think that was a big one. It um instantly, I remember, I remember ever when happened, instantly shot bitcoin higher. Um, you know it what. Ellen has a million followers on Twitter,

so it instantly shot that up. Um. A lot of bitcoin people thought that was great. Things have kind of fumbled a little bit since then, but I think it really did help it to kind of notch a level higher. I would say, I don't know what you think. Yeah, I agree with that. I think that it says a lot. People can talk about certain things on Twitter. UM. I say this as like there's celebrities who are paid to

say things. I think Ellen really enjoys Twitter. He likes to rile people up, but also just kind of enjoys it, so he'll mention things on Twitter and UM. But it says a lot when you actually are betting your your cash reserves of your company on bitcoin, I think that shows a level of commitment that's much different than shilling something on Twitter. UM. In my opinion, it makes perfect sense.

I mean, the dollar is devaluing year after year, and when you have cash reserves for a business, the last thing you want is to see your your profits go down while the expense of everything you need to do goes up. So why wouldn't you hold it in an asset that that holds its value better? So I think it makes sense. But I do think it was quite a move for you on um because he he kind of you know, he likes to ruffle feathers but I think actions are are stronger than words, and this was

a pretty big action in my opinion. Well and it and it put it on the map. So it put it on the map for all of those fifty million people that follow on Twitter plus you know, it's a bigger audience or whatever. So I think it put on the map. And then to your point, the skin in the game put his money where his mouth is. He did go out to say that I have not sold any of my bitcoin testlas old temper cent of its holding is essentially to prove liquidity of bitcoin as an

alternative to holding cash on balance sheet. So um, to your point, Justine, he's moved it into reserve, he's still holding it, and he has continued to hold his holdings as well. Are you listening to the Mark mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin and the decentralized revolution in the studio with Justine and we're talking about the top things that happened in bitcoin in two thousand twenty one will

be Iraq, don't go way all right, welcome back. You are listening to the markma Show and we're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about the decentralized revolution that's happening, and I'm in the studio with Justine Harper. You can find her on Twitter at Misshotel M s h O d L. And we're talking about the top five things, the top couple of things that have happened in bitcoin, and two one that went by like a whirlwind. And so we

talked about the price. Um the lowest price of the year was twenty seven thousand, and we're up almost double that at this point. We talked about Tesla adding bitcoin both to its balance sheet as well as um elon Musk holding it and said that they are not selling it. I think, um the next story, which I think is has got to be the biggest story of the year, is that El Salvador, right, El Salvador declares bitcoin as

legal tender, which is pretty amazing. I mean, they had to fight off the World Bank, they had to fight off the International Monetary Fund. Uh, they've had to fight off what maybe you know, US Federal Reserve CIA operatives working down there to to destabilize that. I mean, they've

they've come under massive, massive fire. They've obviously had technical difficulties to roll out something that big, but through all of that, I mean, the president bu Gallea is like held strong and uh and uh kind of turned into one of the top Twitter trolls. On top of that, Yes, he's uh. I would say that he's very good at Twitter. Um, and it's amazing to see someone in his He might be as good as you, Justine. I think he's much

better than me. I was going to put him up there with Elon, but I think that I I appreciate the principles from one a little bit more than the other. But uh, but I do think, yeah, he has a way of kind of like he stands behind what he says and what he does. Um, no matter what you think of him as an individual. UM, I think it's huge And I think sometimes I think Alex Godson says

this best. You know, we kind of come from a privileged world when when we live in the U S. And we don't realize the issues that many individuals have for accessing financial services. And I think Al Savager is a huge example of that. Is is the bitcoin a great medium exchange for us right now? Uh? No, you know, the dollar works pretty good for that. We can save in bitcoin and we can you know, like you know, spend things when needed and so forth. But some people

don't have access to those services. You know, people in el servera door. From my understanding, we're on a and you were there, We're on a bus for hours, you know, to go access financial services with cash on hand, where they could be robbed, where you know, it's it's a dangerous situation for them. Um. So I think bitcoin solves that problem for so many people in a way that also allows them to save in an asset that won't devalue. So individuals who maybe have never had the ability to

say before now have that as well. So I think this was huge. It hands down the biggest story of the year, um, And I think it was. It was definitely a moment that everybody was watching to wait. They were waiting for them to fall on their face, and now they haven't. So how will that look? You know what, Other countries are now going to be looking into this because at the end of the day, it fixes it solves a problem for them, and I think it's huge.

Yeah to your point. You know, Um, in the United States, where we're privileged, Um, the dollar works really well as a mean of exchange. And I tell people, don't spend your bitcoin, save your bitcoin, spend your fee at but in El Salvador, Um, Yeah, I've been there, And they don't have access to a digital banking world like we do. So they can't walk around town and spend off their Venemo or spend off their debit cards. They don't have that,

and so it's a cash society. And so um, the stores and both you know, both both the merchants and the retailers, they have to just basically pay with cash and they can't you know, send him, receive money electronically and whatnot. And so they don't have that privilege we have. And now bitcoin has enabled them to join this global financial network, um, which is which is pretty dang cool, um,

And so it's a big need for them. They've they've on board, and millions of people, those millions of people all got like thirty dollars worth a bitcoin, which is since like doubled since they got it. So like that's pretty cool as well. UM. And you know they've had their troubles, right, I mean, there's a numerous complaints and problems with the tech from the achiev A wallet and I get that, um. I mean, UM, imagine rolling out

a new system that's never been done before. This this this advanced, um and not having some problems like come on, cut them some slack with right, I mean it's insane. Yeah, I think that's that's to be expected for sure. Um. I think that one of the stats that I saw come out was that and I forget the exact number. You may may know this more than me, but essentially saying that more people in Al Savador now have a

bitcoin wallet than you know, a banking account. And I think that really shows the need for that area and what problem it's solving for them, because yeah, you can as an individual, I can now go into Al Salvador support my local common economy with just simply a cell phone. Right, I can download an app I have, I have access to digital financial services and don't have to use you know, some sort of outside party where I have to travel a long long distance and from a merchant standpoint, I

mean this is huge for them in my opinion. UM, so yes, I think this is I don't think this is the like, it's not the story that happened in one and then it's done, like. I think this will be like the ongoing story. This is a a thing that will continue to develop and we will see more and more people sort of using it as an example to shape their own economy. Um. And that's that's what

bitcoin is, right, It's freedom. It solves problems, and I think what problem it solves for each individual is different, and I think this is a great example of that. Yeah, I was just looking here. Seventy it says here for the latest Bank of America report, whal Research reports seventy of the adult population else ove order did not or does not have a bank account seventy. So it's pretty

pretty massive. I would agree with you, Justine. I think this is going to be, um, something that's you know, when you look back through history, like I love to look at history, there's these certain key things that happened that really pivoted and changed things. And I think this is going to be one of those things. Um. And

I think it's going to really signify, um, hopefully. I think I hope that's going to signify kind of the end of this giant nation state and back to more of a competitive landscape because not only it seems like and I don't know about the politics, I don't know the president personally, and I know people have accused him

of being this you know, dictator whatever. I don't know, um, but it seems like to me that once he got bit by the bitcoin bug, he's now starting to attach to a lot of the other properties, the freedom properties and things like that, because now we've seen he said, uh, hey, now El Salvador is an open country, no mandates, no testing. Uh, we have vaccines if you want them, everybody can have them for free. If you don't want them, don't have them,

no big deal. And uh, like it's really and oh and by the way, we have this bitcoin sitting there and you can come and no taxes, and like, um man, you're really starting to see kind of be this like a place of freedom, which is pretty cool. Yeah, I agree. I was going to say that that it seems like he, uh, he kind of changed his mind on some of the more in my opinion, like government overreach mandates that he had he had had previously, which is great. I think

a bitcoin, uh, it changes us. It makes us look at things differently, and and it aligns the incentives in a way that we can't ignore. So I think that was a really beneficial fantasy as well. Now the one thing is, so he's speaking at the bitcoin conference bitcoin Uo is coming up in April, I believe of next year. I'm speaking there. By the way, so if you're not already getting your tickets to Bitcoin conference, you should. And by the way, you can save ten percent on your

tickets by using mark at the checkout code. But also the President Bukeley is also speaking there, and supposedly, according to a bitcoin magazine, supposedly he's got something really big to announce. We don't know what that is, obviously, I don't have the spoil alert. I sent out a tweet on on Twitter the other day, I said, Hey, what I really want I said, there's he's gonna announce something.

What I really want him to announce is that there's like a citizenship program for bitcoinners that we can get passports, um, I said, retweeted if you wanted to get up there. And I don't know God or whatever, but that would be really cool if he comes and announces that where you could invest you know, two bitcoin or or one or two bitcoin or three whatever the amount is, but to get citizenship right away. Uh. Any thoughts on that

that would be huge. I'm a big fan of Katie who does climb passports, and this is something that you know she helps bitcoin or is there really anybody it's not just a bitcoin specific right, finding that second passport, finding places that are more freedom minded. Um, I think this is like exactly how it should be. I think that the free market, if allowed to work properly, works

for everyone. And I think the free market idea with citizenship and being able to essentially like, I'm gonna move to where it incentivized it is to me most to be a citizen and those countries are incentivized to offer me really great things that I want to come via citizen for it improves everything. Um. So I think this is the natural next step, right Like bitcoinners have already completely fully supported al Savador and the Bitcoin city um idea.

So having the ability to actually gain citizenship for many people would be a game changer. So I'm with you. I think that's probably If I had to bet, I would guess that that's probably what it is. But UM excited to see it. I don't have any spoilers either, but but definitely definitely think that we'll keep our fingers crossed.

I heard, uh, I heard, I heard if you buy this bitcoin bond, that's the other big thing is that now there's this bitcoin bond, so they may be able to raise money um without having to go through the I m F, whichould be big um. And maybe if you buy the bitcoin bond, there might be like a residency which is like a five year path to citizenship. But we'll wait and see on that. Unfortunately, as American citizens, uh, we're not allowed to participate in that, you know, for

our own protection. By the way, you're listening to the Markma Show. We're talking about bitcoin and the decentralized revolution. We're talking about the biggest stories of two thousand twenty one in the studio with Justine Harper at Miss Hotel and uh, we discovered a couple of stories. We're gonna be back with a couple more, so don't go away, all right, welcome back. You're listening to the Markma Show and we're talking about bitcoin and we're talking about this

decentralized revolution. We're talking about the biggest stories that happened for bitcoin in two thousand twenty one. I'm in the studio with one of my good friends, Justine Harper you can find her on Twitter at Miss Hotel, and we recapped a couple of big things so far. We talked about the price, which to me is the least important thing to talk about. But UM low point low points this year is twenty seven thousand, and we're almost double that,

which is pretty cool. We talked about Tesla adding it to its bounce sheet and you know, Elon Musk maybe bringing it to the forefront of of all his followers minds, which is pretty cool. UM. He did say that Tesla hasn't sold a name of his holding. Well, they sold tempercent, he hasn't sold any of them. And then we just talked about El Salvador, which I think is really the biggest story of the year. And if I would have, I should have reorganized this because I should have been

the biggest story. It definitely was in my mind, it's the most important story. UM. Another big story, though, that I think is equally as big. I'm as happy about it personally. UM, is that I think, uh that the bitcoin et s were approved and UM, since like two thousand and seventeen, they've been trying to get bitcoin u e t s through and they've just been denied, denied, denied, denied, denied. UM.

There's pros and cons to this, I think. UM. The one thing that I would say that the pro though, is that whenever you have a new technology, um there's like this bell curve um. It's the innovator, innovator's diffusion, diffusion of innovation, and it's how a new technology gets

out into adoption. And so you start out with the inventors, and then you get the visionaries, and that it gets to about fifteen percent adoption, and then there's something called the chasm before you get to the early majority and then eventually the late majority. And the chasm represents a gap in the public's mind where they don't understand what the technology is or that it's real. It's still a scam, it's still a joke, it's still what it ridiculous, whatever

it may be. It's a chasm. There's something in their mind that's blocking them. But to get over the chasm, the early majority's mind has to get past that where they see it as something real, legit, and the use case has even changed. And I think El Salvador definitely

helped that. I think lots of things. I think this is the year that we crossed the chasm for any number of reasons, but I think that bit when E t F also really helps that it helps legitimize it, It It helps people be able to get access to it very easy, and and maybe just in their mind, a lot of people that were skeptical on the sidelines might look at it as like, well, dang, I guess it might be a real asset. I don't know if you think I'm on some on something there, Justine, I I

think we agree on this pretty pretty on point. Um, I I'm with you. Like this. To me, it's like, Okay, that's cool. I'm not personally excited about it, but I do agree that I think that there is a there's an aspect of adoption that's going to take time, and Bitcoin by some folks is seen as a specific thing. They don't understand it. It seems like some sort of strained tech technology that people they don't like must use it. You know, it's must be used for illegal activity because

you know, the dollar isn't right, um, sark hasn't there. Um. But yeah, I think that this will be a huge turning point for many people. It legitimizes it, as you say, I mean, I have family members who are sort of stuck in this hole. I've been talking to him about it forever. I thought I had it for a minute where they kind of saw it, and then they've gone back to, oh, well, you know, I'm not sure the

technology is weird. You know, it's it's like this underground dark web thing, and so you can't you can't think of bitcoin that way anymore once we get to sort of et F stage. In my opinion, um so, I think that from that standpoint, it does help and it will allow more people to you know, have access to bitcoin and have the benefit from it in one one way,

shape or form. I personally hope that that's just the beginning of their journey because I think that everybody should be holding the keys to their wealth, because that's the goal here, right, like to really be sovereign in your wealth. But I think it's okay to start somewhere that maybe doesn't look like that, and this may be the first stepping stone for many, which I think is is good. So I agree, big thing happening. Me personally, not personally excited about it for me, um, but I do I

do see the value. It's one of those things like it's good for bitcoin. Even if myself doesn't personally benefit from anything, it can be good for bitcoin. It can also be bad for bitcoin. So I think there's actually, in my opinion, there's actually probably more. I think there's maybe actually more bad for bitcoin than good. So the good is obviously, as I said, like getting over that mental chasm, and I think so I think just changing

the public perception, I think is good. Um In in other countries, in Canada and countries in Europe, Um, they've already had e t s for bitcoin. The thing with bitcoin with e t s, and there's two types of e t f s, and so one of them is physically settled, so that means that I'm betting that price of bitcoin goes up and down, and depending on if I'm wrong or right, I either have to give them

bitcoin or they give me bitcoin that's physically settled. The other one is cash settled, which means that I don't actually buy the asset or sell the asset. I'm only just making a bet, like it's like betting on a base on a baseball or football game, and I just

have to pay you the cash. And what in the US, they've denied every single future or physical settled e t F and so the only thing we have now is a cash settled in the problem that we have is that you know, you can have these here these economics. Before you came on, Justine, we were talking about Steve Hanky and his theory which is just insane. But in the real world that all all prices set off supply and demand, and so if there's more demand for bitcoin,

then there is supply, the price goes up. It's pretty simple. But the problem is that, um, maybe let's say that you're a hedge fund institution that had a billion dollars or a few billion dollars that you want to put into bitcoin, and you can put that into bitcoin, or you can put that a few billion dollars into a just betting on the price of bitcoin. And so what it does is it it takes artificial supply. So it's

almost like increasing the supply. So instead of buying the bitcoin and taking that that's that bitcoint of the market and increasing the demand, you just bet on it with the same amount of money. And so I think I think that in itself is a net drag. It changes this uh, this this demand curve. UM. So I think that's the problem. And uh, I hope that at some point they'll have a physical settled one. UM they keep denying them. UM, So I think it could be bad

from that perspective. UM. But yeah, I don't know any thoughts on that. No, I I agree with you there, that's kind of UM, I guess what I was alluding to. And I don't personally think it's good from my perspective for me, if that makes sense, I don't like the idea of UM essentially, like you mentioned, betting on assets that aren't there or can't be a guaranteed or there.

I think it's it's hard dynamic because bitcoin is kind of the first asset that we have that is fully auditable, right, Like I think of like gold notes, um, And this is what in my you know, as as a previous gold holder, I wanted physical gold. I don't want to note that says that maybe you have some somewhere, and I don't want to bet on on gold. I want it if it's an asset that I hold my wealth, and then I want to physically have it. But not

everybody is sort of in that mentality. UM. I think it's interesting with bitcoin though, because we can't audit bitcoin very easily. How does that work? How does that work in this future's betting world? Like how does it look different or does it fall into those same traps and and downfalls of it in the past, in the in the legacy world. So I'm not sure I want to

have a huge opinion on it. I do have some concerns, but then also at the same time sort of see the benefit of it getting to that point from an adoption standpoint. But I don't know, I don't know what it looks like. I guess it's a good way to put it in a world where you can't audit the asset, but you're just betting on on what it may or may not do or so forth, or what it will look like in the future. Um so, yes, I'm I'm a little I'm a little sworn on this one specifically.

Um yeah, yeah, so I think we we aligned pretty well, good and bad, good and bad, you know. And and futures. Futures were really designed for for farmers. And I didn't know what my crop was going to be like in the future. I didn't know how much oil is gonna produce in the future. And so what I could do is I could hedge with the futures, and I could sell my crop at this fixed price today, and that way I d risk UM. And it's also for things

that are difficult to UM take custody of. So to your point, Justine, so UM futures are great for commodities like wheat or oil or gold that are very hard or almost impossible to take delivery of it. In the March of Saw, the oil price dropped to negative thirty five and the reason why I went to negative thirty five is because you have to take physical delivery and nobody wanted to take physical delivery of it. And so

UM futures are great for those types of things. But for bitcoin, it costs zero dollars to take custody of your own bitcoin. That's that's really the killer app of it, and so UM hopefully that changes things. Hopefully people would rather just take custody of their bitcoin UM as opposed to you know, oil or wheat. It's very difficult to do that UM, and so hopefully that will change it. Of course, just throw a little bone for Justine while

she's here with me, thank you for coming on. And she works with unchained Capital, which is a multi stick setup that I used to secure my bitcoin UM and so it makes it super super easy too to secure it UM but those are the big stories I guess that I'm thinking of for for bitcoin, UM will continue to see the network growing. I mean elsal it are brought on millions of people alone. UM and UH we'll continue to see that the development on the network growing.

We saw Jack Dorsey leave Twitter to go work on bitcoin specifically, and UH we'll come back next week. We'll talk about what to expect. For two. You're listening to the Mark Moa show talking about bitcoin. We're talking about cryptocurrencies, We're talking about the de centralized revolution. I've been in the studio with Justine Harper, Miss Justine, I'm sorry at misshotel on Twitter for unchained capital. Justine, thanks so much for coming by and hanging out. Thank you for having me.

Look forward to it next time. That's what I got for you today. Thanks so much for listening. To see you next time.