The Mark Moss Show Dec 03, 2021

find her on Twitter at nat Brunel. That's with two els And uh, we thought we'd just talk about some of the news. Nat, thanks so much for joining, Thanks Mark for having me. Super excited to be here. Yeah, so you know, it's a as as almost every week, it's pretty eventful in the bitcoin space. Things are happening

really quick. Lots of news headlines are going on. But there's something bigger than just this week that I've been seeing and and big news broke out this week and turning into be one of my favorite places in the world right now, Al Salvador, and this news or article came out and says El Salvador plans to be the first bitcoin city backed by bitcoin loan big bitcoin bonds, and it says that the city, the president of El Salvador plan the city um in the eastern region of

law Union, which would get geo thermal power from a volcano and not levy any taxes on the people except for value added tax. And so basically the president saying, invest here, you know, make all the money that you want, keep it all and um, you know. He went on to say that he thinks this is going to make El Salvador the financial center of the world. And uh, I think we're witnessing game theory and action. I love to see this. In my opinion, I've been talking about

this for a long time. I think it's I think it's very evident that the world is trending towards authoritarianism more more oppression from all around, from a global minimum tax to surveillance technology, etcetera. And I've been saying the only thing I believe that breaks that trend of moving towards authoritarianism is competition. And so when states start to compete for each other and are forced to think of you as a customer, Um, we'll get better service, better products,

better pricing. But when nations start competing, it's like a whole another level. I mean, what do you think about that? Yeah, I totally agree. And it's interesting that you even talk about authoritarian governments because there are critics out there who say that President Naive bu Kelly is a dictator, and here he is promoting a currency that he will never

be able to manipulate or control. Right. And although I know that some people had a gag reflect with just the presentation of El Salvador, I personally didn't mind it, but I mean it was amazing to witness him just presenting this idea of a bitcoin city, zero percent capital gains tax, zero percent property tax. Right, everything is funded by these bonds that I think are very innovative, and and the and a ten percent flat sales tax, which

I think will you know, attract entrepreneurs, attract innovation. And they're planning on having it in the Gulf of Fonseka right around that volcane. Know that they planned to harness for power. They're going to build the energy infrastructure around it, and I think, you know, once again we have the chance for mining to really spur innovation in green energy. And then hopefully, you know, these bonds will make some

folks a lot of money. It seems like UM block stream is already having a lot of interest from people from the Whales to enter this space. So it's a really great announcement. Yeah, I just think, I mean, if I like to look at these like little changes that we have today, like like if you watch a movie, like they go back in time and like, oh, don't touch anything, because if you move one thing, it could have this massive impact on the future. And so when I look at this and I just think about how

big this can be. So like, UM, we're both from California. UM California and New York were competing to be the strictest under the lockdowns in Texas and Florida outcompeted them, and most of Wall Street moved to Florida, a lot of Silicon valleys moved to Texas. UM I went to Puerto Rico. They gave me better business structure, and so I took it. And so it's that competition loop. And as youkind of pointed out, right, he's brought all these people there that can come star businesses. Have no cap

games tax, no income tax, no property tax. Like that's gonna attract a lot of people versus UM Like California is like, well, we're just gonna increase property since since since all the rich people left, let's increase property taxes on people that are there. Like It's like, it's a pretty stark difference. I think, Oh yeah, by the way, I think the jobs numbers came out and California's fifty. I mean, they brag about the economy here in California,

and yet we're we're coming in last place. But you're absolutely right. And I love seeing the politicians in the United States as well, sort of competing for this. We have both the new Mayor of New York, Eric Adams, as well as Mayor Francis Suarez in Miami, both saying we want this city to be the hub. We wanted to be the center for crypto and for this type of business. And so I think it's gonna spur a lot of um entrepreneurs and and a lot of you know,

maybe people just moving out there. I mean, I'm certainly considering moving myself to a place that's a little bit more friendly in terms of taxes and just the spirit of this ecosystem and what it stands for. And I was really excited about the the el Salvador News, and I hope, I hope more countries go in this direction. You know, that's something you said. They're like the spirit

of what it stands for. Right, So if you think about it, like, um, I don't know if you agree, but like from my standpoint, it's like I've been Del Salvador many times. I spent a lot of time in Central America surfing, mostly surfing, but I've been down there

and worked with Bitcoin Beach as well. And you know, while America is better in terms of you have, you know, more modern things and conveniences all those things, there's this spirit, there's this air of things in decline versus if you go down Del Salvador, which is a very poor country, it's like a hundred and seven on gdp um. Then there's not the conveniences that you would typically have, but the air, the spirit is like optimism, it's like hope.

And I think that makes a big difference, just that I completely agree with you. And it's so funny because I swear like right now, I think a lot of people are living on this false sort of high of the stimulus, and you know, we have this massive, in my opinion, asset bubble in the stock market. Housing prices are through the roof, you know, rents or skyrocketing, and you know, people got their their stimulus checks, and there was sort of this idea that, oh, people saving rates

are up, people are spending money again. I think all of this is just imaginary wealth. I think it's it's fake. We are so leveraged, we are in such a big bubble and it has to crash at some point um. Yet we have the government sort of outlying any sort of correction in the market, right because they're just going to initiate more printing to save it, to keep propping up what they've created. And we're in this fascinating place where I think the average person knows that something's off,

like I don't. I don't know that they necessarily maybe expect to crash, because I think they already assume the government's going to come and rescue them. But there's this general feeling of like, why, you know, we haven't even recovered from the pandemic. Our economy is not back in action. There's a ton of jobs that haven't been filled, people are still at home, businesses have been shuttered. Yet we have all time highs in the stock market like something's off.

It's it's so it feels like a video game that we're watching. Sometimes another thing is back to that spirit. So he Boukeley says, quote, invest here and make all the money you want. Which in America we're basically trying to penalize the rich. We're trying to victim or villainize the rich. Right, if you make more money, you have to give up more of your wealth. How dare you have that? And he says, invest here and make all the money that you want. And so, um, I think

that's cool. And then also like um, by leveraging something like bitcoin, then they can go into like no no property tax, no income tax, um. And then just leverage it off of like a sales tax, which I which I like. It's like a consumption tax, so you pay for you pay for what you use. Um. Well yeah, and that's how our country used to be when we were on sort of that terraff system before we initiated the income tax back in which was for a very

small percentage of the population. I would imagine that people would never have voted in an in come tax that they knew that eventually would hit like you know, all of the middle class and sort of strangle the people that are in the middle saving and and and having day jobs that are enough to pay for for anything. But I totally agree with you. And something I thought

of something when the whole else salvagere thing happened. I was on the Twitter spaces that Nick Carter put on where um, they were actually voting for bitcoin to be legal tender, and it was it was I don't know if you were on this, mark, but it was such an amazing energy filled Twitter spaces where we had this millennial president, you know, talking in real time to a bunch of people across the world who are big bitcoiners while the the you know, the elected officials are voting

on this in real time. We could hear the cheers in the background, and he said something that I remember where he was like when I was young, there was a lot of hope when I thought about the future that I would look into the future and there was I would imagine spaceships, you know, when we're all traveling and like spaceships, and it's like technologies, you know, has taken over the world and everything is sort of writing on this on on these rails that are are innovative,

and I don't know, it just prosperous. There's prospers there's prosperity and technological innovation. And when he got older, it was like the future is filled full of filled with uncertainty, and there's instability in the nation, and like how much has changed since he was little and he's hoping to bring back some of that hope through this decision. And I think that that was that was really interesting to me. Yeah, that's great. You're listening to the Mark mos show. I'm

on with Natalie Brunell. I want to come back and tell you more about El Salvador. We'll be right back, all right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Moa Show and we're talking about bitcoin. Of course, we're talking about cryptocurrencies and we're talking about this decentralized revolution that's changing the world. I'm in the studio right now with Natalie Brunel. You can find her on Twitter at Matt Brunel, and we're talking about something that's going to

change the whole face of the world. We're literally talking about something that big, and we're talking about what El Salvador is doing um to make this Bitcoin city another thing that I was thinking about, Natalie, is that, Um, in order to build this bitcoin city, they are going

to power it with a volcano. And if you think about this for a second, so like, um, if you look at you know, throughout history, all the wealth of nations came from uh the nation having natural resources, so water, gold, oil, things like that, and typically the nations had the more natural resources were more wealthy. And El Salvador being ranked a hundred and seven on GDP, they don't have any

natural resources. They have like coconuts, and like that's kind of it, um, But they have this volcano and like so what like what's the volcano worth? Right, And it's like, well, the volcano has heat, and okay, well the heat can make electricity. Okay, but you can't ship electricity. You can't even move it to the rest of the country. It's

only there locally, so it's no good. And now they can mind bitcoin with it, and they can use that energy to power the city because it's local, and then they could use the money from that coin to pay for the city, which is why they don't have to levy so much taxes on it. And so that's big, right. But then like think about it, like, um, how could this reshape the world? Because Um, as a surfer, I've traveled all over the world surfing. I'd love to go

through the South Pacific and to the South Pacific. You have all these little a tolls with volcanoes, all these little islands that have no noutive resources but they have volcanoes, and like, this could probably redraw the entire power structure of the world. Yeah, I think it's something that's so amazing and exciting. It's crazy to think that this was kind of thrown out as an idea by Max Kaiser. I don't know if you you saw that, but he was the one that first I believe, suggested volcano bonds,

and I think it's fantastic. I mean, I think this was a really creative idea to basically structure the bonds in such a way that five million will be used to actually build that energy infrastructure, and then the other five hundred will be used to buy the bitcoins that will finance you know, people getting their their yield on this. My one question is, you know what's going to happen when they planned this sell some of their bitcoins because

I don't know if you read part of that. But they eventually will will sell so that they can pay dividends to the people who own these bonds. And I don't know how that would affect the market, but I mean, think about how just creative and progressive you have to be as an elected official to do something that's never been done like this, and all for the benefit hopefully of tapping into a natural resource like your your volcano, which now could be used to power you know, mining efforts.

It's just it's just incredible to me. And think about it from a different level too. So, um, the world's drowning in debt. Since we got off the gold standard fifty years ago in August, we've come up with over three hundred trillion dollars worth of debt. When a nation wants to take on debt, they issue a bond and so people buy that bond, and you're supposed to when you buy the bond, you're loaning the money. You're supposed

to get interest. Well, half of the sovereign bonds today are negative yielding, So we have about eighteen trillion dollars of bonds that actually don't pay you. You actually have to pay them to loan them your money. Which makes no sense. Only in a world of free money would you have that. Um. So half the half the bonds are paying nothing. And even in the United States, it's you know, ten years whatever one and a half percent today, but inflation is over six so you're still losing money

even on that. And so you have all this money that doesn't know where to go, and it's going into negative yielding bonds. And now they come out with a bond at six and a half percent, which is like pretty big compared to everybody else. So like they're out competing again, back to that kind of competition thing. So to your point, and they're raising a billion dollars. Half of it goes to build out the energy, the mining, the facility, and then half of it goes to buy

bitcoin directly. Um. What they're saying is they're gonna lock it up for five years and they'll pay the six and a half percent and then kind of to your point, Um, they'll start selling the bitcoin after year five to start paying additional on that based off of blockstream numbers, which, Um, I'm a big bitcoin bull. Uh, they're a little bit

bullish even for me. Um, they're saying, you know, bitcoin hit in the price of a million dollars in like five years, which I think is a little bit aggressive. I think five d in five years is probably realistic,

but who who knows? Um? But anyway, Um, then they'll start selling it and they say the bonds could pay up to a hundred and forty six percent, depend on what bitcoins performances and so what like eighteen trillings eighteen trilling dollars and bonds are negative yielding, and here you can potentially make up to a hundred and I know exactly.

And it was really interesting because I saw Samson Mow on an interview with Bloomberg and the reporter was pressing him because actually El Salvador's bond right now pays the yield of thirteen percent, So she's like, why would anyone choose the six point five? And it's like, no, no, no, you're not seeing the bigger picture. And and that's where you do. You have to believe in this technology. You have to be super bullish because the estimates are based

on those future price you know, predictions. And it's kind of sad because right now we're looking at the stock to flow, right and we're kind of like, what's going on why are we at that level where you should be at the six figure mark already? But I do have faith that that we will get there and and we'll see how the sponds payoff. Yeah, and if you look at if you look at this too, it's no different than what Michael Sailor has done with micro Strategy.

He's done several of these um Now in the last two weeks or so, I think we've seen at least four or five publicly traded bitcoin mining companies do the same thing, issue bonds to go buy bitcoin. So Michaels, you know, micro Strategy has done it a couple of times, and they're oversubscribed every time. You know, they've done a billion dollars um. All these bitcoin companies have done hundreds of millions of dollars each, So we've seen billions of dollars of appetite for this UM so I have no

doubt they'll fill this up pretty quickly. Yeah, I agree, And I think that just anything that provides more of these on ramps onto this sort of highway of getting into bitcoin, especially institutions that maybe are not able to own bitcoin directly. These bonds and and the e t f s that were past a couple of weeks ago. All of these are pathways for more adoption, which I think is is so incredibly important. Yeah, you mentioned earlier, you know, about the politics side, and some people call

him a dictator. I think he even I don't know, maybe joking around on Twitter changed you know, said call himselves the dictator or something like that. Um. I don't know enough of the politics to really get involved to put my opinion into that. UM. I try to, you know, judge a person as as I as I learned about them and based off of what I've been seeing. I haven't really seen that, so I'm not sure where all

the grape is on that. Yeah, I haven't either. You know, I'm sure that there are more nuances that maybe we're not familiar with, especially not living in El Salvador. But I do think that once again, you have to give someone credit for embracing a technology that he will never be able to control as a government or as you know, a treasury. This is something that's by the people for the people. It's completely organic, it's not venture capital backed.

I just think that, you know, by moving in this direction, it's in that positive especially for a country that has been dealing with so many debt issues, it's like, why not try something outside of the box. Why not? What do you have to lose at this point? So I think it's great. I mean, people obviously are still able to transact in US dollars, but I think if bitcoin is headed in the direction we expect, this will be very, very powerful as a tool for allowing prosperity and for

you know, wealth accumulation in Al Salvador. Yeah, I've just been saying I think that, you know, bitcoin is a political Bitcoin isn't for one political party or another. It's not for one economic system or another. It's just a political It's just a tool. So whatever happens, Um, you know, if if for some reason he turns out to be a bad actor and tries to do something nefarious, like, don't assign that to bitcoin. That's not Bitcoin's fault. Um, you know, if he if he does something bad, we

have to kind of look at that separately. So I do want people to at least make that distinction that is not this political tool. By the way, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show, we're talking about bitcoin. If you haven't figured it out already, we're talking about the cryptocurrencies and this decentralized revolution. I'm in the studio with Natalie Brunel. You can find her at Nott Brunel on Twitter.

Send her a message and say hi. When we come back, I want to talk about UM some other game theory that's going on between nations, UM, but maybe in the opposite direction. So don't go away, we'll right back. All right, Welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Mos Show, and we're here talking about bitcoin, and we're talking about cryptocurrencies, and we're talking about the decentralized revolution that's literally changing the entire world. It's going to change the way humanity works.

We're witnessing it all happening right now. I know that the world is scary, and I know there's a lot of bad things going on, and trust me, I see it. But there's also some amazing things happening, and history books are going to be written about this time and place, and that's what we're talking about right now. Hopefully you can see how big it is. I'm in the studio with my friend Natalie Brunell. You can find her at nat Brunell. Of course, I'm one Mark Moss that's the

number one. Mark Moss. Before the break, we were talking about how El Salvador is really ramping up the game theory by opening up their country. They've removed all mandates and restrictions on the health type stuff. UM, They've opened it up for business. They're allowing investment in business to come in. They're not charging them any sales tax or property tax. I mean, they're basically just saying we're going to outcompete everybody, come and get us, and just opening

everything up, which I love. On the other side of that, which is pretty interesting to see play out in real time, we have India and so India this week came out and said that they want to bar crypto transactions but still permit holding assets. So they said that they want to UM the bar the use of cryptocurrencies for transactions or making payments, but allow them to be held as

assets like gold, stock shares or bonds. And they said that this approach would avoid implementing a complete ban because people could still get access to it. UM and the and the Prime Minister said that they were doing this because they were concerned UM that unregulated crypto markets could become avenues for money laundering and terror financing. Uh, they haven't finalized the details of bill, but that's kind of

where it's at. So it's like one country is saying, hey, we're gonna let you entrepreneurs come build and do what you want. On the other side is like, hey, we're not going to allow you to do what you want with your own money. I mean, it's a pretty stark difference right now. Yeah, absolutely, And it seems like, you know, India is probably taking sort of the majority standpoint of seeing all of this as a threat and wanting to maintain their prerogative on the power over money and and

how people transact and who controls the tender. So I

think it's really interesting there. It seems like they're trying to find this middle ground where people can have it as sort of an asset, the way they do with gold and gosh, I mean India for for so long, I think I think gold is one of I don't I don't probably don't know if many countries that honor and love gold more than India, I don't know, um, but I do think it's really interesting that they're so threatened by this type of technology as opposed to allow

allowing it to you know, potentially lift up communities. Obviously much of India is so impoverished. This could be something that's very, very helpful. But looks like the central bank doesn't really understand the technology or doesn't want to embrace it. Well I think, I mean, I think they do, And so I actually think unlike China, which did a complete outright ban, it almost looks like what India has done

here is gone. We'll shoot um. On one hand, we recognize that this tool could be used to get out of our control, but we also recognize that um, if we ban it, we don't stop the technology, We just stop our people from participating or profit in it. So what we'll do is we'll still allow them to profit from it on a dollar basis, but they can't own it.

So it's almost like they do recognize the potential um that they're afraid of, but also that they don't want to ban their people, so they're at least letting them participate, like you know, in the price action. I guess, yeah, I mean it just it's interesting because I feel like everything is still lumped together, right. Cryptocurrencies are not all

the same. Bitcoin is not crypto, and and I think that when you don't make this type of UM, you don't distinguish between them, and you don't maybe acknowledge the differences of bitcoin between some of the other technology projects that are out there and other coins. I think that that that really says something. UM. And you know, I just in in India. I think that there are a lot of issues that could potentially be solved by bitcoin, and hopefully they will allow users to have access to this,

to the blockchain. But you know, I think that we have to wait and see. Yeah, I think you know, it's like you know, as I said, right, the government could ban their their people, their citizens from using it, but they can't stop it. And so um, you know, in the United States, obviously, goal, I mean, drugs have been illegal for a long time, and drugs have to be grown and cultivated and package and shipped and process and smuggled and distribute all those things. They can't even

stop that. But also when they come out and tell you that hey, you don't you shouldn't do drugs, um, it doesn't make you want to go do them because you know they're not they're not not good for you, right, Um. But when they tell you you don't have the right to hold your wealth in a way that we can't inflate and steal and regulate. It kind of makes you want to do that, and so I think I think it does more for the marketing than than not almost

kind of proves the case. Yeah, well, and they're really stoking fears right by saying that this is linked to money laundering and terrify financing, and I think all of

that makes people a little bit anxious and worried. And I you know, I think that India is very modern in many ways, but there's still very much a cast system, and so I would be interested to know what it's like to be in India and hearing about this from the news sources that are out there, because I think we're getting a different narrative and different headlines than maybe people in India are themselves. I love that that headline.

Of course, it's always the worst fear, like oh it's gonna fun terrorism and uh, you know, money laundering, And it's like those fins and files came out whatever eight nine months ago and it was like the banks have laundered like two trillion dollars, like the banking system, Like you're worried about like the little hundreds of millions of dollars over here, like literally like two trillion dollars have gone through the banks. I think that's more for shock

value than probably what they're really concerned about. Well, I think it's amazing too that right now they're acknowledging that this one trillion market cap asset is such a threat, right, it could destabilize nations and just you know, not even ten years ago, it was seven years ago, it was just internet funny money, ponzi scheme scam. Now it can suddenly bring down nations on a national security level. It's just it's so interesting to see the evolution. I think

adoption is inevitable. I think these are just this is there's volatility and the acceptance, just as there's volatility in the price. And I think the next couple of years will be crucial. And I personally think the pandemic did a lot to help not only put a spotlight on on bitcoin, but really show the value proposition. Right we are now exponentially money printing all across the world. In order to sort of, you know, put a band aid over what what the pandemic exposed, I think we already

had problems before the pandemic. I think it exposed those nerve endings and we need a fix and that fixes bitcoin. And I think a lot of people saw that light in the last year. Yeah, I did. I did a video explaining what's known as the Mundol Fleming try limma. So you have basically dilemmas, choose one of one or the other try limmas. You have three and any nation that they have three things, and so one is controlling their interest rates, two is controlling the money money supply,

and third is controlling their capital inflows and outflows. And so obviously if they bring interest rates to zero and they inflate the money supply, then capital is not going to want to come in, and most of the capital is gonna want to leave. And so that's the that's

the try limit that they're stuck with. And I was doing this in regards to when China band it, and so China wants to maipulate the interest rates and their money supply, but then capital wants to leave in the cryptocurrency is that lifeboats and then they ban it, right, they take away that option. And so you know in this day and age, which you know now with this you know, all this green infrastructure spending, they want to

do a hundred fifty tillion dollars or whatever. Um, they're going to have to just keep printing more money and they can't raise interest rates, and so people are going to want to leave um and they don't want to do that. They want to seal uppy exits or takeaway take away the lifeboats. Yeah. No, I mean it's crazy to think that they are basically stuck between a rock and a hard place because of the consequences of the money printing and going off the gold standard over the

last several decades. And now literally it's either do what's right that the painful medicine, hike interest rates taper and allow this thing to crash, and boy would that be a bad crash, or basically move into the direction of more and more inflation, which just debases the dollars, steals from the people in the middle, steals from the savers, steals from the in come earners who aren't in assets.

It's it's really sad the position we're in, and it's it's amazing to me that bitcoin kind of provides that life raft, Like that's what's so, that's what's so inspiring to me. Yeah, it's like like a drug addict. You know, if you can keep giving them more drugs, it's eventually going to kill them. But if you pull the drugs, it's this horrible process that they have to go through

either way. I want to talk more about what you said about the risk of bringing down a nation state, and there's actually somebody, a prominent influential person came out this week and and warned of that exactly happening. We'll talk about that when we get back. You're listening to the Mark mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin. Of course, we're talking about cryptocurrencies in this entire decentralized revolution. I'm in the studio with Natal Natalie Brunell, and we will

be right back. All right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Moa Show and we're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about cryptocurrencies and the decentralized revolution that is happening. I'm in the studio with Natalie Brunel. You can find under at nat Brunell on Twitter. Of course I'm one

Mark Moss on Twitter. And we were talking about before the break, we were talking about, of course bitcoin, but we're talking about how this game theory is playing out in real time where you have El Salvador embracing it and um creating this awesome environment for people to come and build and invest and grow. And then you have India on the other side, who's kind of punishing people and taking away their ability to participate. And so we're seeing those two things play out in real time. My

money's on nations like El Salvador. I think a free markets always win. But another thing that happened this week was Hillary Clinton. I don't even know why she's still in the news anymore. Um. She came out and of course she had to echo what we've already heard from Janet Yelling from the Treasury and Christine Legarde from the ECB and and basically, um, she said that it undermines cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin undermines the financial system. It threatens the financial system.

And I was just thinking, like, you know, a lot of people think that the dollar is backed by Some people still think it's backed by gold, some people think it's backed by the military. Um, we have, you know, hundreds of millions of people that support the financial system, the military, the all of that. Um, you know, the swift banking system all the banks, all this and they're worried about open source piece of code out competing them.

I mean, how ironic is that? Yeah? I mean again, I think this is just an example of how Hillary Clinton either hasn't done her homework or she's being completely disingenuous on this technology. First of all, on the Democratic side, this will empower your base that you want to be able to afford their kids college education and afford to have a house. I mean, I think it's just ridiculous when she's how was it, how was it being how

is it being disingenuous? Because I mean, it will it does threaten the financial system, don't Well, But I think that, you know, I think that she's conflating cryptocurrencies again with bitcoin, and if she does have knowledge about it, I don't think she's being genuine about knowledge of how it can empower people, of how it can be a tool for empowerment, for wealth accumulation, for creating generational wealth. That's what I

sort of mean. It's like, if you really knew, if you really understand this technology, you wouldn't be saying some of this um And I'm one of those people that I don't want to see the collapse of the US dollar. I want bitcoin, like Michael Sailor has said, to make the US dollar potentially more powerful than ever. They can

ride on monetary rails right next to each other. We don't have to be in a world where where all of a sudden crashing, you know, the dollar completely, and all of a sudden everyone is just transacting in bitcoin. I mean, some people believe that will happen, but I don't know. I mean, I'm I am more apt to believe what Michael Sailor thinks will happen, which is that other foreign currencies collapse into the dollar, and the dollar and bitcoin are very strong. The dollar remains the reserve

currency used for exchanges. But going back to kind of you know what she said, It's like, these are the people that created this problem. These are the people that have created the bubbles, and when the economy wanted to contract, they came in and expanded the money supply more and made the problem worse and just kick the can down the road out And now they're they're you know, attacking the one thing that can potentially rectify some of what

they've caused. Yeah, I think, um, you know, whenever you have new technology. It's it's what's called creative destruction. And so the new way, the new creation is so much better that it destroys the old way. So digital cameras destroyed film cameras. Um, it's nothing against film cameras. It's just digital cameras are just better. And that's just is

what it is. And so, UM, I think when Christine Legarde or or Hillary Clinton says that Christine Leguard said that that innovation is a threat to financial stability, well, it's a threat to their financial monopoly. Um, it's a it's a threat to them. They're they're they're monopoly being stable. But that's the whole point, right, it's a better system and so we can move to it. So, I mean, I do agree with Christine Leguard and Hillary it's a

threat to the financial system that they have their grip around. Um. But not um, not in an adversarial way. I don't like to think of bitcoin as an attack. Um. Bitcoin is just an opt out. It's a it's a way that I can decide to park my wealth over here. UM. But it's just it's just it's it's an open source piece of code, that's all it is. It can fit on a thumb drive and uh and and it's gonna

it can it can threaten the entire financial establishment. Uh and only because it's better, Only because it gives us a better option, I think to Michael Saylor's point, you know, he's got a lot of eyes on him and board members, I don't. I believe in I believe that we should have a separation of money and state, and the government should not be able to print money at will. I think I think that should happen. Uh. And I'm I'm I'm okay saying that, um, and not not that it

should be attacked. The collapse of the financials so that we have today is going to be difficult for a lot of people, and I don't I don't wish that on anybody. UM. I want to offload as many people into the life rafts as we possibly can, which is which is why we're doing it, I know. I mean sometimes I compare this to Noah's ark. I'm religious, so that's why it resonates with me. But it's like, you know, we're trying to get as many people on this ship

because the system is collapsing on its own. I mean, if if you're looking at what it will cost to live and what the dollar will be worth in the next ten twenty years. It's a pretty scary picture, I don't. I mean, you can try to, you know, go ahead and play the stock market, but who knows what will happen. I'm sure there will be a pop at some point.

I just think that bitcoin is that that arc that can usher us into this new digital era of saving and maybe kind of recalibrating the global economy on sound money. I mean, can you even envision a future and none of us have really lived in it right where interest rates are based on price signals, supply and demand, as opposed to manipulated and artificially lowered so that you you, you know, you misappropriate capital. I would love to see a world like that, Like what would it look like,

what it would wealth distribution be more equal? I know that the world is not going to be, you know, perfect and equal, but I don't want it to be. I don't want to be this big blob of humanity that's all the same. I wanted to be based on competition and some there will be winners and there will be losers, but I think everyone should have fair access in a free market to kind of prove themselves through

their goods and services. And I don't know what that world looks like right now because the government has just ballooned bigger and bigger, bigger and intervened more and they just, um, they say that it's necessary, right, But I I see it as the problem masquerading as the solution. Yeah, well, I mean we we can't we can't imagine and when we haven't seen it. But I think a little glimpse of that is that, um, we get paid for the value that we provide. So an entrepreneur, business person, um,

isn't greedy. Um, they make money by solving your problem or your need. That's how they make money, so by providing value to the world. But we're in a situation today where people are afraid to go create massive value for people because the government's going to steal it all. And the government doesn't provide any value because they just steal all the wealth. And so really there's not like

going on. Plus, the field money system has created this like generation gamble where everyone's trading cryptocurrencies and options trading, and that's not providing any value to anybody anyway. It's like a net drain. So what if we switched that to where people were incentivized to build value and the government was also incentivized to provide value to you in exchange for your tax revenue. And now instead of nobody providing value, the whole world was working together. I mean,

amazing things could happen. I know, it's it's amazing to think about something like that, Like, that's the kind of future I want to envision for my kids, as opposed to one where we're heading in the direction of just more and more government dependency and the government basically saying that they're necessary and all these components. Well, no, I think I think the free the free market will dictate what's best for people, and I would love to live

in that world. Market. Let's make that happen. Well, I think I think we are, you know, uh, we're we're obviously trying to usshure that in, you know, as best as we can. I think, you know, going back to to Noah's Ark, right, I mean, he was building that arc for uh was it forty years or whatever. He was building the arc and people thought he was just crazy. And uh, you know, we've been talking about bitcoin for years and years and years and people think we're crazy.

But the rain clouds are starting to form, like people are starting to see, like this rain is coming down. At a previous segment, I was talking about how the FED came out with this article saying that turkey has gotten too expensive, you should have to fur key instead. And when people are seeing that they can't afford their food anymore, um, they're going to realize they need to get get into the arc, or at least at least

get into into the lifeboat. You know. Well, and this is where I get angry at my former industry, because I saw an NBC report yesterday saying that you know, here's one way to battle inflation. Just don't buy a turkey or less people will come over, I mean, or

or you know, get the tofur so soybeans. I mean, I think it would be it's incumbent upon them to actually educate the public on what's causing the inflation and be real with people and stop, you know, just encouraging the kind of food that feat subsidies are basically causing us to go to, which are less nutrition us and our diets are poor because of it. Yeah, well that's what you and I are here for to help educate people.

You're listening to the Mark moss Show. We're talking about bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, the decentralized revolution, among with Natalie Brunelle. You can find her on Twitter at nat brunel um at one Mark Moss Um And that's it. Thanks for listening.