These policies that go against kind of natural law and natural order are actually responsible for a lot of the big coms that we see from inequality, even potentially racism and climate change. But what governments are trying to do is they're trying to outrun that by printing more and more money, and and they're they're they're not aware of
the consequences that they're driving into society. I've always asked people just a simple question, would you rather your money by more goods and services in the future or less? Inflation is when the value of your money is worth less overtime call it two percent less overtime, three percent plus overtime overtime or less overtime. Inflation is goods and services go hop in relation to your to your money.
The government's kind of operating on this, this this scarcity mindset when the reality is today we should be operating it seems like on an abundance mindset, where I look at it like wealth creates more wealth. Economics is about scarcity, perceived or real. What we've seen is when people kind of come into bitcoin, it changes their mindset to where they want to be savers now and um. When you're
a saver. You're not consuming as much stuff, you're not buying as much stuff, you don't have as much trash, you don't have as much stuff, and so um, that consumption, that rapid rate of consumption is also bad for the environment. We talk about bitcoin, and for people who understand what it means, it's way bigger than wealth. Federal Reserve and the central banks are driving and manipulated markets. But are
they working against natural law? And what does that even mean? Well, there is amazing implications for understanding this, and we are going to discuss this today with one of my good buddies, Jeff Booth, who is coming back for a second time to talk about how the Federal Reserve with their fiat money system is actually working against natural We're gonna talk about inflation versus deflation. What we really are talking about in that argument about prices going up and down? Um,
would we rather prices be going down or up? We'll talk about that. We're gonna be talking about scarcity mindset, abundance mindset. We're gonna be talking about how, um, the Fed talks about fighting against racial income and equality, climate change, but is actually maybe making those things worse. We're gonna talk about how technology and free markets could actually protect against monopolies. And then we're gonna jump into kind of the future, like what does the future hold? Is technology
going to get rid of a lot of jobs? And if so, what should you be focusing on and paying attention to? So many good things that we covered here with Jeff, who was a great conversation, uh, that I was looking forward to for a long time. It did not disappoint and so let's go ahead just jump into it right now with Jeff. Everyone. Welcome to the episode of the Market Disruptor Show. And today I am joined by Jeff Booth. He's back for a second time. He
is the author of the book The Price of Tomorrow. Um. He has a very interesting thesis, one that I agree with and one that I want to dig into more. Today we're gonna talk about technology. Of course, I've been talking about technology cycles a lot. What technology is doing, um for humanity, for the world, and kind of a bigger picture of where that goes. Sonny, We're gonna dig into a bunch you have. Thanks so much for joining
me today. Thanks for having me again. Mark. Yeah, so, um, like I said, you wrote, you wrote that book um. And I know you've been talking about it at length, UM, but it's so deep, right, So, UM, why don't you kind of frame up, um, what the book is and why you're going around talking about it so much, Like what's that thesis? Um? So yeah, the thesis is technology
in itself, technology and innovation in a free market. Um, must reduce prices, it must it must deliver more value because in a free in a free market, the only way in entrepreneur winds is by delivering value to society. Otherwise the business fails and they co broke. So if you if you understand how fast technology is moving and how it's making things cheaper to the point of not just cheaper free, that's what ends ends up happening with all most technology. It keeps on driving the price down
to free because you create abundance. And so what's happening in our society today is that that technology, that's that that drive for for better, better humanity is being bumped up against the world where we've always lived in, which is an inflationary monetary policy that won't let prices fall. Hey guys, let me just interrupt this interview real quick, just to plug the show. Sponsor, and that is block Fi. Now, Block five is doing amazing things in the bitcoin finance space.
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can click on. If you choose to use that link, you can earn up the two fifty dollars in bitcoin just for using that link. So check out block fine now. And so so what you see is a byproduct of that is some prices are falling. Your your your photos are getting cheaper, your music is getting cheaper. You're getting abundance and some of the stuff. And people are looking at a cp I across the entire thing and saying, white,
don't we drive inflation up? But the things you need the most, housing, food, everything else, they're they're rising in price because because of monetary easing to make prices go up.
And I understand the problem. I understand why governments are trying to make that happen, because if you allow inflation to happen, essentially, if you allow your money to be worth more to happen, and it's prices to fall in relation to your money, then the existing debt of the world needs to be resent because the existing debt gets, in real terms, climbs in price. So what governments are trying to do is they're trying to outrun that by
printing more and more money. And and they're they're they're not aware of the consequences that they're driving into society in the wealth, inequality, racism, divide of divide of human beings because of because of what they're doing to try
to drive prices up. So we have we have governments that are actually building more instability into a system that is already that it is already unstable um and and and most people are caught within that system and they don't see how the whole system is working because they're measuring their life from the system. Yeah. So so that's
largely what I talked about in the book. When one of the things I realized that kind of in a as I investigated this, because it was something I was talking about for ten years, that that could be like if you asked my friends that every campfire, every is what I'll be talking about, you wouldn't want to be my friend. Um, because I couldn't. I couldn't square that pig that circle into the square, like I couldn't figure out why aren't prices falling everywhere? Because technology is moving
into a base layer of everything we do. So technology that should it shouldn't just be our TV TVs are getting cheaper and better, it should be everything, and and and and So when I investigated that, and I realized, Okay, there's two fifty trillion dollars of debt in the world to run an eighty trillion dollar global economy. That takes your breath away and you and you first ask could you actually grow out of that? And and really hard
to believe you could grow out of that. But if you had to grow out, if you had to grow out of it, taxes must go up and you have to have growth too, so you'd have to slow growth in the future because you demand. But the real smoking gun on it was trillion dollars of that debt came within the last twenty years. And this is all before COVID, so you can predictably. So now now my thesis made a lot of sense. You have prices wanting to fall and and wanting to fall faster and faster, and faster
is technology removes labor and makes things cheaper. Um, and you have something stopping that. You have government policy all over the world trying to stop that, And the simple question is why it isn't. Isn't saving our time and technology giving us more for less the point of innovation? Yeah, yeah, that's great. So, UM, you started with a lot. I'm
gonna start digging into this piece by piece. Um for everybody listening, maybe you caught what he said, but um, these policies that go against kind of natural law and natural order are actually responsible for a lot of the big poms that we see from inequality, even potentially racism and climate change. So we're gonna dig into that kind
of stuff. But maybe to kind of dig into this at the first level, Um, when you talk about inflation and inflation and deflation, Um, you keep saying price changing, so prices going up or prices going down? Um. I think inflation is a very nuanced argument. Um. Obviously we can look at the hundreds of chillions of dollars of debt and that debt could go bad. That's massive deflation. But I think for kind of to frame up what we're talking about, are you talking about specifically like the
CPI and and actual prices of consumer goods. Talking about prices generally, inflation if you if you simple, it's simplified it. Inflation is when the value of your money is worth less overtime call it two percent less overtime, three percent less overtime, fifty percent over time and less overtime. Inflation is goods and services go up in relation to your to your money and so so. And by the way, that's a that's a tax on on the middle class and poor, hidden tax, and it's a wealth transfer to
the rich. And it's pretty easy to see see that. So if you had a hundred houses mark and I had one house and somebody else was renting, if you drive inflation essentially the money being worth less, then the houses will go up in relation to that, and so the houses, so you'll get more of the wealth. And if I'm renting where somebody else is renting, their rents
will go up in relation to that. So inflation is the same as wage deflation or or or your ency being worthless, so on the other So, now, so that's how I look at it. And here's what people conflate. And because they missed the kind of the root cause
of it all. When we hear deflation, we get so scared because we assume deflation to to mean the great depression relationary depression and what people and and and they miss the fact that if you can't pay back the debt, eventually there's going to be bad deflation where you wipe out the debt and making the debt bigger and bigger and bigger doesn't stop that. It can push can push
it down the stream. But they miss they missed the kind of the the what creates the problem from the natural laws of natural laws of human innovation in a free market. And now I add technology that's moving exponentially must be deflationary. Yeah, yeah, um, you know a lot of people think we need this inflation. To your point
right there, deathly afraid of deflation, we need inflation. I talked to a buddy last night who's a very smart guy, big time lover of liberty, loves bitcoin, super smart, makes good money, all these things, and he and he said, well, we I think, you know, bigcoin could be good store valua, but we might need another currency because the money supply has to increase. And I'm just like, why, you know, and so I think people don't really understand exactly what
that means. And I think I've always asked people just a simple question, would you rather your money by more goods and services in the future or less? And like, of course they want more? Right, Um, well, we'll think you think of it. Just pokeon that what we do every day or individual decisions prove what you said. We wouldn't use Google, we wouldn't use Amazon, we wouldn't use We wouldn't have an iPhone with all of the free
stuff on it unless that was true. Yeah, we think somehow that this system should work differently everybody than it does for us individually. It's absolutely insane. We look for value, um, and and so we're always we're always scanning for the best deal, the cheapest price, how we can save money. Yeah, and not just cheapest price. We we it's it's it's value specifically, but how we measure that that value? Often it comes with more for it's more for less. That's
why we use the things. And if we don't get more for less, we'll find an alternative, right Yeah. And um, you know I I had posted something on Twitter while ago, and it was like a picture of a cup of coffee, and I showed, you know, it used to be ten cents, twenty cents. Now it's like a buck fifty. And I was like, what if coffee went the other way? Like, why not coffee getting cheaper? Yeah, so and and and the point is now pull that back. And that's where
people they're so stuck in a system. They it's so hard to believe. We've been trying. By the way, when I wrote my book, I grew up in same probably time that you did, and and I believed in inflation. I believe those lives that that that we're told. You went to school, that's what you heard. You've got an education, you've got a better job, everything else. Your house went up over time, and you paid it back with cheaper
money later on. And and when I when I went to the first Principles, and I realized just a second um, technology isn't going to slow down. Most of the deflation is in front of us. So why is it, Why is it that we believe that we have to have inflation right, and it's not true. So technology so to you to use that coffee cup of coffee example, how much innovation has there been into supply chains to reduce prices.
How much how much labor has come out of that example to be able to raise prices, It should be lower in prices. The only reason that it's higher in prices is manipulation. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point. So, UM, now we've kind of set the stage on that kind of inflation and deflation and kind of what that is. UM, let's hadn't moved into the next area, which would be then kind of taking it to like you said that first principles and that most basic you had said something about, um,
you know, humans human ingenuity. So you know, um, people used to carry an armful of lumber and then they invented a wheelbarrow that was deflay scenary. You talk about technology, I would almost say that it's it's human ingenuity or human imagination. Uh. My good friend Robert Kiyosaki is writing a new book, UM titled Infinite Return, and in that he's making the case that our imagination has an infinite return. We can continue to imagine. I heard a saying it
says everything that was ever created was imagined first. Um, right, I mean a thousand years ago, we lived in the dirt. Everything that we've created has been imagined. So I guess that's kind of first principles. Uh, maybe the imagination is like technology, right, it's constantly looking for ways to do things faster, easier, cheaper, and we should it seems like we should embrace that because the goal would be to have an easier life in the future, not a harder one.
So that is that is the principle of the principle. But let's let's you want to I'll talk about an example here. Um, so you think about the first one that's already hit us. We used to buy records, CDs, eight tracks before before that, and we used to to be able to listen to music. We had to go through this process of having all of this equipment and we had to buy the physical goods and we could only buy so much. We were we had a scarce mindset and because and because of that, there emerged an
entire industry to choose what we would see. We would only see the what what the choosers thought was going to be the best, best music because the cost of distribution was so high, So a whole bunch of people never got access to the market. That never, a whole bunch of artists never We never saw them. They never
saw us. And it was really expensive. If you think about I think about when I was a kid, my record collection and everything else, and all all of those records to listen to a fraction of the music that was available. Now it's ten dollars a month UM and I have unlimited UM exactly in Canada, it's always more the unlimited music. And and all of the creators, all of the new creators that would have never been stars are now stars that now you still have to do
in a free market. You still have to get through that. And because there's an overwhelming amount of content that is essentially free and a technology that allows it to be free. So that's that's just things moving to information where they used to be physical but now carry your things forward. And but that's a base layer. That's what people think is it's just an on industry. It's a base layer of the future of our way of life. In fact,
this what we're doing on this podcast proves it. And what if you look at the technology behind what's coming to this podcast, you just it'll feel like a real experience. Within five years, it'll feel like we're in the same room within five years. Now take that information that you just said. Imagine, so what is pick something in your room. Pick so pick that, pick the table that this is on the you. That table is somebody's idea. I'm going to create a business of tables and my table is
going to be the best table in the world. And right, and it's just an idea that they've transferred to a product, and product is and shipped over the labors overseas and factory in China, through distribution shipping distribution containers, then trucks
and then a real store. And you go up and pick up that table and if that entrepreneurs right, and yet table is a really great table and everything else, and you pick it after it's gone through all of this, that and all the costum that entrepreneur creates a business to repay the cycle, the entire cost that information that idea is about to within ten years will be printed in your printed in your house. It's just information. And on top of that information is you have that idea
for information. AI systems are coming in and delivering better, better ideas and more choice, abundance of abundance of choice, just like in music, coming to you for free or almost free within ten years. So how are you How is government when it's just starting now right, it's just and most of the deflation is in front of us. How is the government going to stop that from happening? They're not. In fact, the fastest the more they push, the more they push prices up, which is unnatural against
the free market. The more entrepreneurs take tech technology to remove labor faster because because that's how you deliver value. So so you have you have two different systems competing against each other, and it's actually happening faster and faster and faster and faster all the time. Yeah, kind of like being in a boat with a hole in it and you're constantly trying to build the water out, but
the but the water keeps rushing in. I guess keep getting Yeah, yeah, I think like I think you mentioned like the scarcity mindset, and so I'm not old enough to have eight tracks, but I did have a bunch of cassette tapes at one point. And I remember I had the biggest cassette table you can get. It had thirty on each side, so I had sixty cassettes. Like that was a lot. Now we have unlimited music. I
don't even buy music anymore. Right, Um, but I think we you know, I guess all of economics does kind of break down to scarcity. Right. We understand like value of cruised to assets that are scarce, but on a we're talking right now on like first principles on a human basis, and you kind of do have two different mindset. You have a scarcity mindset or you have an abundance mindset.
And it almost seems like, I guess kind of what you're saying is, Um, the government's kind of operating on this this this a scarcity mindset when the reality is today we should be operating it seems like on an abundance mindset, where I look at it like wealth creates more wealth. So for example, Amazon was a new technology that has put a lot of people out of business. Right.
But on the other hand, look how many businesses it's created. Um, there's a million people that have started Amazon Store and they're millionaires. Now it's created you know, all these logistics companies and you know manufacturers and so um that that abundance of Amazon has created massive abundance. So is it a battle over mindset as well? Or like it's for sure about ale over mindset? You know I wrote the boat list in the book, and I use the example
to your point. Economos is all about scarcity, perceived or real. So what is a brand trying to do? They're trying to imprint into your mind that their thing is more valuable than somebody else's because of a perceived scarcity in your mind, that you'll pay more for that. That's what any brand is. And so so economics is about scarcity, perceived or real. Hey, sorry to interrupt this video just
one more time. I'm not running Google ads. So it's actually way less interruption than I normally would have on a video. And that's because it's sponsored by block five UM. They are opening up the world of bitcoin and financial products offering to pay you interest on your bitcoin um better than owning a rental property that you have to manage and control and have the risks. You can just
earn interest on it or you can leverage against it. Now, I plan to hold my bitcoin forever and literally never sell my bitcoin. So how do you do that? Well, if I need money, I don't want to sell that bitcoin. I'm gonna pay tax on it, all right, I'm gonna end up with less and I don't have the bitcoin anymore. So a better way to do it is to borrow against the bitcoin. So I've put all my money into bitcoin. If I want to buy a car, or I want to buy a house, I can borrow against it at
very very low competitive rates. Get my house, get my car, whatever that may be, and get to keep the bitcoin. I've done a whole video on this. You can find it. I'll link it down in the description below, how to retire off a bitcoin without paying taxes, and you can do that with block fight services. I'll link to the video down below. I'm also going to put a link to block Fight. If you choose to click on that link to check them out. You can earn up to
two in free bitcoin just for using that link. And that's it. Let's go ahead and get back to the interview. And just to see that what I pulled out in the book is the oxygen you breathe right, arguably the most valuable thing in your life. Why is it? Why it aren't? Why don't you pay a lot of money for it? Over abundance? It's abundant, and and and that abundance is coming to everything. It's and so why would you try to stop that? Abundance from from from entering society.
Yes it has, Yes, it has um real um repercussions because it's a different system. It's a totally different system. But it's coming anyways. And so so if you try to stop that, if you try if and what you're seeing is by stopping that, governments are concentrating power, wealth power, um, and removing the free market. So let's let's talk about that for a second, because that's one thing that I
just keep thinking about as we're talking. UM. I guess there's again as a multifaceted conversation, but when I think about prices specifically as we're talking about right now, um, and the ability for my money to buy me more goods and services in the future, which I would like if prices were going down. But to your point, you're saying,
the FED is actively trying to stop that. Um. Do you think the FED really once prices to go up they want us to have to pay more for things in the future, or is are they trying to do something else as you just let on now, power centralized power, control, and then the rise of prices is just a casualty of that. I mean, do they really want us to have to pay more for our coffee in the future. UM, let me just pause my computer chargers and I'll answer.
I didn't know what I'm plugged, so I'll just pick up. Where where are you? Just at? Pensive right, asked the question. Um, So I've said this often. This isn't a this isn't an act or problem. This isn't a this isn't a Democrat republican. This isn't all all policy right now all over the world is trying to print into this problem because the system requires it. So let's just let's imagine. Um. Let let's imagine Mark. You're you could do anything you
want today, Well I can. I'm talking about government policy. You're you're the problem, um and you have Congress and everything else, and you have the sender. You can do anything anything you want. But what would you do, because here's here's the here's the problem. Now, what would you do besides start buying bit coin on the coverent That you should do, But but what would you do right now to avoid what's happening? If you allow the natural market to take place, then you have you have a
deflationary spiral. And because the debt is so so large, and the government owns the dat and the banks, so in the dead and there's actually nothing back in it. It's just counterparty risk all the way down to the sand. There's nothing there. In other words, everything on top of it fails, including banks, institutions, hospitals, um. Everything government has fail if you allow that deflation scenario style to take place. So so and and that is that that's the natural order.
So why does it look that bad. It looks that bad from breaking the rules of the free market in first place. Nature comes in cycles, fall comes after after summer. Trying to stop fall from happening would cost a lot of money, and so so trying to stop processions and thinking you could grow forever. Um, I understand it because governments are elected short term, and so it's always easier
to promise your population. You can you can pay for more than you can and hide the payment of that in inflation, right so you so and and and people will believe that and say, I don't want my services to go away, so I'm gonna I'm going to vote for the person who's going to give me more services. But and it's and when I say that, it's not a republican or democratic, it's a system problem. Nobody is going to change that system. Um, it's endemic to the system.
So the byproduct of wealth or power corruption is endemic from that. It's not it's not people trying to do it. It's a it's a it's a follow on from that. Because as you do more and more to remove the free market and to remove the free market cycles and against technology, at a point people start to say, well you have to just like, right now, what would you do? You have to because in other words, of civilization collapses and so so, and but the byproduct of doing that
means government actually has an entire market. There is no free market because essentially government's choosing who's winning and who's losing. Um. And it turns into a complete managed economy as a byproduct. And then once that byproduct it takes place, essentially the biggest thu thug wins. And if you look through history, a consequence of these actions always turns into eventually revolution and war um because it managed economy cannot out compete
a free market and where individual rights and freedoms. Yeah, that's a great point, and and that's kind of what I have always believed as well. Right, we're going away from natural law, and eventually you can't write so event eventually you can only suspend gravity for so long or or whatever, and so you can't now compete in the natural market. That kind of comes back as well. UM, I want to shift a little bit now that we've
kind of set the stage there. And really what I was I was interested in a kind of a comment that you had made the other day. And UM, we see the Federal Reserve, the Central Bank, UM, the one in charge of monetary policy. Obviously, UM, they've they've had mandates and that would be to keep full employment and you know, try to keep the market stable. But now we see especially with Janet Yellen and at the Treasury, UM, the Fed and the Treasury and even the I M F. Now, um,
they have come out with new mandates. And now they're new mandates are Um, they're somehow going to fix inequality. How they're gonna fix race, race, racial and gender inequality, incoming equality, racial and gender inequality, and even climate change. UM. I think about you know, the saying that when the whole world, when all you have a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Um, And we understand the Central Banks, the I m F and the Central banks.
All they have is money. Um, but now they want to attempt to tackle or cure these inequalities and climate change. Um. I think most people could easily see, well the FED can't see. But they're the ones causing the problem. Um. But you even think that they might even be in charge or responsible not just for the incoming equality but even maybe racial inequality and climate change as well. Let's let's but and dive into those couple of things. Yeah, it's so the person starting the fire is h is
saying we're going to put out the fire. Yeah, is what's happening. And they're starting the fire with blow torches, um, and and and and telling the world that they're going to put out the fire. It's impossible. And again on a on a on an antidote, real quick, my I have a bunch of friends that are firefighters in southern California, and there was a real famous case, uh the arson inspector, I think he wrote a book about it, like he was actually the one setting the fires and and that's
a true story. But anyway, sorry, go ahead, and so I try not to and some of your listeners and everything else I understand the conspiracy theories that come from the world we live in now. I really do, because because it's hard to see. Once you have actually understand what it looks like, you can't believe people aren't acting maliciously. Be able to but don't assign malice to in aptitude right there, or or or not an aptitude dealing in
a system that can't be changed from the system. So you know, I use that Blockbuster example all the time. It's not like Blockbuster executives weren't intelligent. It's just by the time technology changed to be able to do that, that job that Blockbuster did through downloads in an instant, Blockbuster is over and there's nothing they could do to be able to change that fact it was. It happened so fast. So that's what's happening at That's what's happening
at our monetary level. So to to your question, um or, what are they doing to cause this? Um and and So let's let's use climate change as an example. Um So on one side of the equation, On the technology side of the equation, you have now solar and batteries coming on and storage coming on. Storage not eat, not totally yet, but you have solar, solar as the lowest cost energy today in many regions of the planet, and and and it's getting cheaper. It's getting cheaper at about
eleven per year. So you have new energy coming on that's that's cheaper, and not just new energy coming on, but the economic benefit around solar now is a business. More and more people investing in solar and more. So you have not just a small part of the market being cheaper, you have a greater part of the market over time being cheaper and being being coming in cheaper every year innovation. So so that and because energy itself is the number one thing and every other thing we use,
it drives economies. And if you look at what why US and the petroot dollar was all about oil oil energy, right, but now now we have solar actually additive. It's not there. It's a small part of the overall next today. Um and there's no way we could immediately go to solar for forever everything solar and storage. But you have new energy that's deflationary to the entire grid, and it's becoming
more and more and it's getting cheaper every year. So that's where we are today looking looking forward, and that might not look like that ten years ago because solar was more expensive, so it didn't move very fast. But now it's cheaper. So so what you could say is not just energy. So energy is becoming cheaper and cheaper over time and um and everything on top of energy
is becoming cheaper and cheaper every time. So if you believe in climate change and everything else in the the whole research and the climate change, you would say that is a good thing because that energy is clean, free or becoming lower and lower costs, and it's a good thing for humanity, and so that that will drive a cycle that that in itself will reduce climate change. On the other side of that coin, you have it you have an inflationary monetary policy that must overcome those those
deflationary forces otherwise the system collapses. So you have to print money at an every increasing rate to be able to try to drive prices up against prices that want to come down. So if you looked at just one example today oil prices of I don't know what they are today, but between sixty and eventy dollars of barrel in COVID when still lockdowns and everything else, you do you have to ask the rational question should they be
sixty or seventy dollars? And the only reason they're sixty or seventy dollars today is because you debase the currency against it, and so so the oil prices would rise, and that would make a whole bunch of oil now economical because people are trying to buy more things, buy more to to drive to our market of growth against the natural order. And then as as as it becomes economical again, solar is going the other way. And I
just use one example of solar the other way. So more so so now you have a price and more of a price advantage to move to solar, which drives faster rate, which drives faster printing on the other side, to be able to make to to essentially um um out off set the offset the deflationary forces of of of energy now so now pull all up forward. So in other words, the number one by an order of magnitude problem for if on climate is our monetary policy
that forces prices up forever. You cannot grow forever on a finite planet at last, in terms of the growth of of what governments say growth and GDP, especially when growth growth is moving to information and information is free. Okay, yeah, so UM, things there to unpack on that. So one, I guess what you're seeing is UM technology UM is improving in energy. UM. I just did a video I think a week ago. UM. Well, I don't want it from the Times. There's recently on talking about how energy
is wealth. Right, that is wealth, and how I showed some charts and showed how you know, nations always need to have natural resources and energy was that UM, and you could see how the wealth of a nation really corresponded with the energy they either have or they can control. UM. And so to your point, UM, you know we have that energy UM. But technology is is creating new types
solar maybe other other ways to do it. UM. I read about some changes that just happened to natural gas energy where they can basically do that at net zero now UM, and so technology is changing that. But as technology brings UM prices down and energy, that's going against what the FED once which is prices going up. So I guess that's kind of the first argument that you had. I think there was two in there, but I want to make sure I had that one right so exactly,
so that is exactly right. And so so what would they do about it, if and and so. But remember it's moving exponentially. It's every year it's getting cheaper and more. That means the policy to overcome at why why you're seeing an ever increased rate of growth every year it becomes way more to be able to try to get the same kind of stable prices, which is ironic, which
is just so crazy. And to save jobs that are going away anyways, And why why would you bring down the value of your money to save jobs because the labor rate or is the percentage of of a technology company comes down, so you can save jobs because you're paying people less. Yeah, for for a while, but anyways, that's so, that's that's that's what that's what's happening. So as technologies helping to save the environment by creating new
ways for clean energy. We'll just say that whether that whatever means that maybe it's counter it's go encountered what the fetes trying to do, which is trying to raise MOE, so they just have to increase what they're doing. The other piece that I caught was m and I think this is a little bit bigger almost maybe a little more philosophical. But what's happened is um, I think it
was Christine Legarde said just the other day. Uh, she said that, you know, I get it that most people don't want negative rates, but it's important for the rest of the economy that we people go out there and spend. And so what the Fiat money system has done, Um, we know that we're sitting on money that's losing value and it's forced us to consume constantly. Right that as you're talking about growing more money, more consumption and so um.
When you what we've seen is when people kind of come into bitcoin, it changes their mindset to where they want to be savers now. And um, when you're a saver, you're not consuming as much stuff, You're not buying as much stuff, you don't have as much trash, you don't have as much stuff, and so um. That consumption, that rapid rate of consumption is also bad for the environment. I'm buying more plastic bags and more bottles and more whatever.
And if I if we shift our mindset from a feat mindset, which is which forces consumption and growth at all costs, and we start thinking about only buying stuff we really want and need, we bring the consumption down. That also helps the environment. I guess, was that kind of your point? So they're too again, you keep coming
back to it. There are two different systems. They're completely to this systems, and I understand why people are caught in one system and they have they have a hard belief to even overcome what we're talking about to say, um, because they've always lived in that system. So I used this example often because I lost the business one time because because because I had three fifty people in the business doing one thing, I realized we need to make a change to do another thing. That's a whole bunch
of costs to do a different, different business. But but the biggest, the biggest moment that I had after the fact wasn't wasn't that we weren't right. We were right. We were right, And it almost made it out the other side, and you could see the metrics, but it took longer because everybody had to go from from the new business and go back to the existing business and do that job, knowing full well that when the new
business was there, that job didn't exist anymore. And so so so imagine telling somebody, yeah, getting everybody raw raw to your company, how exciting or and there's a small team working on that, and then and then they have to go back to the desk to be able to work on the other business, to be able to pay enough money to be able to drive the new business. And so so if you think about that on how
we're all part of a system. We talk about bitcoin and for for people who understand what it means, it's way bigger than wealth. Way it fixes the system. Um and and it brings it brings fairness to a system, and that it has a whole bunch of other qualities
really important. Um. But but a lot of people are talking think about bitcoin in that way, and then they have to go live in the existing system where their food prices are going up, where their rent prices are going up where there and and if you lived in that system all the time, And then you go to you and some some politicians says it's not your fault. I'm going to give you more money. You're probably not gonna ask where did that money come from? Right? But yeah,
and I think of thing just cognitive dissidence. Right, So I'm holding two opposing thoughts and beliefs in my head and realizing that one is wrong, and then having to having to realize that if that is wrong, and then almost everything I've come to know is wrong. Um and I think that's a good point. You know, you talked about your employees and they had a hard time coming back to the old system once they saw how well the new system works, um and so that they had
to live with that cognitive dissidence. And I think this is one thing that the central planners, all central planners, in my opinion, that's a pretty big statement, but I think all central planners really disregard or don't understand is uh is you know, human mindset, motivation, intension, right, and so like humans are motivated, and so like when you're in a when you're in a company that's like growing, when you're in a country that's growing, everybody feels good
about that. Um. Today in the United States, while it might still be, you know, one of the best countries in the world, it's on a downward path, and so people don't feel good about that downward path. Kind of back to your company, they saw how well things where they had to go work in a bad system, um.
So and and and I think that's just that's a super important piece that the essential plane misses in that back to your earlier point, you said that the natural competitive market's always going to win, and it's a lot
of that that intention. So now just think about some of the the measures the central planners or anyone else would measure full employment, UM, stable prices a g d P and and think about that in a transition to an information based society, which we're moving into when information is free and and and and so those measures themselves
are the exact opposite measures. Growth growth should be measured by how much, how much time you're saving, how much how much price growth In in this in the economy where you're moving from things to information and more and more things to information, we should be able to extrapolight growth in time savings and and kind of abundance. So it should bring down prices. But we have a miss. But we we think about growth in we make more money next year, we make uh we uh, even though
our money loses money. We think about growth and more more and more jobs. We don't think about growth the way growth should be measured in an information based to in time in time saving. There's like a time value of money. And I've looked at I've looked at this a number of times, um, and I think it was like, um, pre seventy one, it took like twenty three weeks for the average American to have the American dream, which was on a car, have two houses, you know, one one
income family, college, etcetera. Took twenty three weeks. Today it takes fifty three weeks. The problem is, of course, only fifty two weeks in a year. So uh, if you look at the time, the time that it takes. And so instead of instead of going from twenty three weeks to fifty three, you should have gone from twenty three to fifteen weeks, right or something right, and and and some of these concepts aren't really hard if you just said, why do we why do you use technology in the
first place? Use technology to save time instead of me having to fly to where you're at in Canada to do this interview, which would have taken me, you know, a week to go there and back whatever, we just did it here. And and cost and hotels and and cost to the environment and every and everything else, all of those, all of those individual things are a whole bunch of jobs in the economy. Yeah, and now and now, so this is a really good example about how much
more productive you can be. Now, obviously people still want to travel and everything else, but some of some of what's coming to make this experience this is this is experiences, a gen one experience. So what that will look like, what that will look like in time will blow those mind and it'll change the experience. There's two more points I want to hit on. We'll start winding this down.
But before I hit those two points, I was gonna to your point, Um, A lot of times people think that moving to a sound money, whether that be gold or bitcoin or whatever you view that as. Um, they think that that would cause hoarding, and that would never work, because you know, bitcoin is the best saving mechanism and everyone's just gonna save and everyone's gonna hoard money. And I just think about that as the most ridiculous statement.
And I saw you get a chuckle out of that, because it's like, I'm still gonna want to travel, That's what you just said, right, I'm still gonna want to travel. I'm a surf right, surf all over the world. I'm still gonna want to go out to movies or I don't know if I go movies anymore, go out to dinner, Like I'm still gonna want entertainment, I'm still gonna want travel,
I'm still gonna want to buy those things. So like it would, what it does is it it changes you from just rampant consumption for anything to still just buying the things that I really want. I get such a chuck hole out of that. And so when I sell in my bitcoin anytime and maybe probably never, but but but what would I invest in in in in other businesses that could And let's imagine bitcoin at the top, like whatever price, so you want to want to say it's and now it's more stable, Um, it's it's not
absolutely volatile anymore, but it's more stable. Wouldn't it makes sense that you would invest in something that could get a greater return. Yeah, of course, of course it would. Like I invest in companies all the time right now, and in my measurement now now, Unfortunately, for the companies that I'm investing at today, they have to compete with with what I think bitcoin will do, right, so there has to be a huge return profile on those companies
or what I believe that what will happen there? But uh, but I still make those investments all the time right now. It wouldn't change anything. It wouldn't it wouldn't change the way an economy is built, or people would hoard money forever. It's okay, So I'm not going to eat food because because because we have hard money. It's insane. It's absolutely insane. But it does cut out malinvestment investment. And yeah, So so two more points I want to hit on. One.
I want to talk about how technology changing in a free market could actually maybe prevent monopolies. I want to talk about that for a second. I want to ask you about that, and then I want to talk about jobs, because obviously jobs are important, and what happens if we technology replaces all the jobs and we need u B I like Andrew Yank talked about. So I want to I want to ask you about both those. Let's first start with the first one, which was you know, free mark.
We get caught up in words, I think, and and today words are misused, so people think capitalism equal slavery, for example, right like I believe capitalism is like, you know, a mutual exchange. Um. So rather than look at socialism and communism and fascism and all these things, I look at it like we have a a captured, controlled, centrally planned system, or we have a free, open, competitive system. And I think that a free, open, competitive system is
the best. I think that most people understand that competition brings better products, better services, and better prices all the time. But some people think that if you really chase that to the end, then the free market with no government regulation just leads to these giant monopolies. And I would say to that, and how to get your opinion based
off technology? Uh? And the statement that you made about that, you had mentioned, um, how Blockbuster saw it was changing, but there was nothing they could do about it, and that's what triggered this monopoly thing. So Blockbuster kind of had this monopoly, but technology displaced that. And so my thought on the free market is that, um, it's it's it's these corporations using government regulations to entrench their positions
that allows these monopolies to grow. But I think we most people realize that as companies get bigger, the harder it is for them to pivot an ideate, which happened to Blockbuster. And so as technology changes, new companies come up with new ideas and new ways to do things that are better faster, cheaper, and it naturally would break those monopolies. Do see that or agree with that? Or am I wrong? You know your exact clear, you're exactly right. Um,
this is hard to do in this much time. But um, but but if you just say, if you just do a thought experiment and you said you said so. Technology is making it easier and easier for entrepreneurs to compete all the time with new ideas that change existing structures, and it's really difficult for the existing structure to compete against getting attacked by all of those entrepreneurs with better, better ideas, cheaper for more value you as a human right,
And the only way they win. All those experiments only win when they do that. So so so, in fact, monopoly power is actually created from the system today, and printing money into the system actually creates monopoly power faster. Right And because imagine in a different system, And I understand why people say that, Okay, go tax Google, Amazon. They're doing so bad bad things. They're giving you value and otherwise you wouldn't use it. Um, And they're doing
it faster. And the more that we print against that, the faster the amount monopolises are creating that are created. There the the other side of that coin, imagine imagine a company that has that has so a whole bunch we move into a different system. There's less jobs, there's more opportunities, there's more time for people. They actually have lots of time. They don't need to their their wealth being destroyed through inflation, so they have lots of time.
There's a whole bunch of curious people wanting to attack new industries and create their their riches. And now you have a monopoly power entrenched because and high margins and that in that structure, what do you think what do you think would be attacked first? Right? Because because they because those entrepreneurs would attack the best, the best opportunities to be able to make make money, and by doing so they would destroy them. Any ways, and and and
and bring more value to society. If you let the system work instead of instead of driving more and more inequality in the system through printing, you would actually find a faster, a faster benefit to society. Yeah, okay, And then the last thing I want to just ask about is what happens to the job. So, um, I think it was um Milton Friedman. He went down and saw people were building the road by hand, you know, by hand, and they said, why are you doing it by hand?
Why not bring a tractor down here? And they said because jobs. And he said, well then why not just get everybody spoons? Then if that's the case, right, like, why not get more jobs? Then I give them spoons. And true story, I went down to Nicaraguana surf trip and nicarag was one of the poorest countries I had been to at that at that point. People are literally still getting around on on box drawn carts there um and there is a road that every time I go
back to Nicaragua, they're still working on it. And I asked the driver the same thing. Why don't they bring up actor and they're putting literally putting cobblestones by hand, and he said because jobs. So anyway, we know, like in the last presidential election cycle, Andrew Yang was running on this platform and technology is gonna get rid of these jobs, and so we have to come up with you b I UM. I seem to think that UM technology replaces the load task jobs and it opens people
up for more high end jobs. And then we can look at Amazon, well, maybe it did put out a lot of jobs over here, it created a million jobs over here. Um, So really it's just people need to unfortunately, I guess, have to learn a little bit and they have to kind of grow and evolve. Where do you see that playing out? Is this bad for jobs or
good for jobs or you know humanity overall? Um, it's bad for jobs and it's bad for so so there's a there's this belief that it's just bad for the low paying jobs and we'll create more high paying jobs. But that belief isn't if you actually investigate what's happening and artificial intelligence and what's what's happening at the rate of that change. It's bad for high paying jobs too, not all jobs. And I'm not on a people people
get really confused here. It could because they're scared. So they backtrack to an old system and they and they say we have to protect the jobs at all costs, And they don't know what they're doing is by driving inflation to protect the jobs or to pay for more people they can't have jobs. What they're really doing is picking the people's pocket at the bottom of the social ladder to be able to pretend they're helping without the
money to do so. So that it's theft. Inflation. You could say, if somebody takes something from you that you don't know they took from you, and you can put better policy around around that, is that theft. If somebody comes in and take something from your house, is that theft? And so does it matter at what rate they steal from you? Two percent, three doesn't matter what rate? So I these are you said, words matter, These words matter,
but it is theft. And so so when that same person picks your pocket and says, I'm going to transfer money to you, from you to somebody, I was saying, words don't matter, it's the actions. And so to further prove your point, the action is they can call it not death, but the action is death exactly. And instead of calling an inflation, and now we're going to call it quantitive easing, and we're gonna do essentially, we're going to pick your pocket faster to tell you that that
we're not picking your pocket. That's what's happening. It is that I wish it wasn't. I understand why they're doing it, but but that's that's what that's what it does. So there's actually no way to fix that from the existing system. Now, Remember inflation is wage deflation, So essentially they're paying you're getting paid less to be able to keep a job. And well, technology is removing the jobs anyways. Keep keeping people busy is important. So so now let's but these
are different concepts. Is that important important? And so so let's just get back to the first part of the technology is supposed to reduce. You put technology into give more for less and the consequences that reduces labor and and the consequence of that as it saves our time. That's what that's why I that's why I use it. If I think about the technology companies and building right now, how much value they give that remove a whole bunch of jobs in the overall system, and over time, more
and more more jobs. That is the point, and it gets and as we moved to an information based economy, economies all over the world, that just accelerates. But didn't we lose. So let's say technology, we lost a bunch of manufacturing jobs, but we gained a whole bunch of programmer jobs and new machines and three D printing as you talked about, So like we added all those jobs that we never had. So in historical frameworks. You're you're absolutely right. We always created more new jobs and more
new economies than than before. You believe that this time is different, and this time is different because we never had technology that was becoming smarter than us. Technology today can code itself, technology can AI systems are creating create so some of these, some of these, first we train the AI systems and then the AI systems do it way better than a weekend, and the rate of change on that it would be um. We could disagree on this point, but I don't see. I don't see. Okay,
where are the new jobs coming from? The new giant families of jobs. There will be some, um, but not enough to replace the ones that are that are lost. And actually that's the whole point. If you allowed deflation, and that's what part of people two different systems that get so caught up in. If you allowed the natural order of things, what would happen is that as the jobs were removed, prices would fall in locks step. If you don't allow that to happen, as the jobs are
removed and prices are higher, everyone fails. That's that's exactly that's exactly what's happening. But if you again remember we are moving into most of the deflation is in front of us, most of the job losses in front of us. There will be I am super excited about some of the companies that are creating right now, super excited and what they do, what they do and investing in and creating it. So on one side, I see opportunities everywhere, right, But if I add it all up and say, are
there opportunities for everyone everywhere? No, And so if if those opportunities are only for me because we keep printing an existing system and it concentrates more or more wealth, that's pretty bad social experiment for for for the world. Okay, well, um, well, time time will tell you've done way more research on the topic than I have. So well you're the experts,
will it will defer to you on that. I would say, though, to your point that you said that you're excited because you see a lot of opportunity, But maybe it's not like that for everybody. And so I would just encourage everybody listening, like, don't get scared and depressed. Just be on the side that's seeing opportunity everywhere. There's a book.
There's a book written by Daniel Pink and it's titled A Whole New Mind, and he talked about how with the Internet we have this uh commoditization of technical workers now and so coders and programmers or a diamond dozen four bucks an hour overseas today, right, and so no longer going to being a coming engineer or that coder.
Is the key. He said that to have success in the future, instead of using your analytical side of your brain, use the creative side and then become like a conductor of an orchestra and pick this coder and this programmer and this person and kind of and and and and use creativity. And so to your point, Jeff, you see, you see opportunity everywhere because there is so much UM.
But you're creative enough to kind of see that future. UM. And some people, unfortunately, they're just stuck just digging that hole every day. UM and so UM. If you want to succeed in the future, you're like that book says, you need to kind of switch from the analytical to the creative side. And there is an abundant future ahead. There's so there is so that that there. We totally agree. There's so much opportunity right now in any system. Change
it creates staggering opportunity. Yeah, but we're going through a system change and a major system change in the way or a way of life, and but there's lots of opportunity right now. Yeah. All right, Well, with that, I guess we'll go ahead and wrap it up. I think that's a good, good point to end. We've we've touched on so many things you have. I appreciate that. Anything else that you want to just add before we wrap
it up, good? Thanks, Okay, good. We're gonna make sure to link your book down in the show notes before put your Twitter profile in there. Um, and I guess with that, ahead and sign out. Thanks so much, Jef. Awesome. Thanks