Talking with Adam O of Upstream Data

And I like to bring to you each week, you know, some education to help change the way you see this, to help you navigate it better, the latest breaking news, and I like to bring to you some interesting and educated people to help get some different perspectives. You don't have to listen to me all the time. And that's what we got right now for you today. I got a special guest, um I have Adam Oh. You can

find them on Twitter at Denver Bitcoin. He works with a company called Upstream Data Ink, which is a pretty cool company because they are um doing something that capitalism does. They're taking trash and turning it into treasures. So capitalism does, it doesn't waste things. It's always looking for more efficient ways to do things and taking unused assets and creating value. Adam, anyway, Adam, thanks for joining me today. Hey, thanks for having me markets.

It's great to be on man. I've listened to a lot of your shows, so this is this is fun to talk. And I don't think we've actually you and i've ever you know, spoken at at any length. So so good to get connected. Yeah we haven't, we haven't. I know we've traded many many text messages, I'm sorry, Twitter messages back and forth together and uh, i've I've remember even asking you where you live before, always looking forward to a chance where we get together and chat.

But but anyway, here we are. So UM. You know I said it in the beginning. You know, upstream data is helping people turn trash into treasure. And what I mean by that is that there's a lot of waste going on, um. And you figured out a way to kind of take this wasted energy, this this flare gas and turn it into something of value. UM. And I think that's pretty important. Um. A lot of times, you know, we're seeing I was talking about on an earlier segment

about how they say that things are a waste. UM. So there a lot of a lot of people talk about bit win and say it's a waste of energy. And I could say that meditating is a waste of your time. However, I choose to use my own assets or you know, my own private property, that can't be a waste. That's how I want to do it. What a waste might be though, is if I made a bunch of food and then I had to throw it away, I didn't use that food, that might be a waste um.

And so that's kind of what I see with this flare gas. Right. So bitcoin has to use energy that's already being wasted. It's not actually wasting it. It's actually only using energy that's being wasted. Is that about right you think? I'd say, at the end of the day, bitcoin miners, those who are participating in right, producing new bitcoin um at least for the next hundred fifteen years UM,

they're most incentivized to use the most economic energy. Right, So they're they're constantly going to be seeking out the most economic power on the margin. UM. What I mean by on the margin is you know, per killed one hour to to generate. And what we find when when you consider that reality, when you consider the reality that we now live in a world where anyone who can go and tap into stranded energy, wasted energy, wasted power

stranded power um. There's a massive opportunity to to benefit economically. There's a financial opportunity there because we have this autonomous energy consumption market known as the Bitcoin network. Right, it's a it's a downstream market. You you you were saying earlier in your show, you were talking about you know, one of the beautiful aspects of bitcoin is that it's permissionless. Right, you can use it without asking permission, and nobody can

can stop that transaction. Right, it's an immutable transaction. Well, it's fun to talk about transferring money and having it be immutable. What about selling energy? Because mining is an immutable operation. Right, A fifteen year old kid can wake up today, he doesn't have to ask anyone's permission, he doesn't have to make any phone calls, and he can go sell a billion dollars of energy without talking to anybody.

So long as he has the infrastructure in the access to the kill a lot hours to do it, you can sell a billion dollars worth of energy. What do you mean by that? What I mean is if the Big Point network itself, the process of mining bitcoin is merely just an autonomous electricity market, right, it's me effectively what you're doing is you're selling electricity, and what you're

getting in return is bitcoin. Now to be more specific, you're selling computational hash computational work, right the changing of ones and zeros um. But you need electricity in order to generate computational work. You cannot you know, you can't generate computational work without input. And so um, ultimately, what we have is depending upon the efficiency of the chip, which at this point we're entering into the period of commoditization on the hardware, which you know it won't get

much much different than it is now. Um, what we see is there's a standard electricity calculation where any minor today we'll we'll talk kill lot our prices with you where they say, yeah, you know my cost is five cents per kill a lot hour. If you're mining with an ant minor S nineteen pro right now, each machine is making seventeen cents per kill a lot hour, right,

so you've got a nice twelve cent margin there. Um, if you were mining last year like a out of us work, it got above you know, thirty forty cents per kill a lot hour. And so ultimately this is a downstream energy consumption market and in oil and gas. You know, what we do it upstream data, and what what we've done since is we help oil and gas

producers get their hydrocarbons downstream economically on the margin. And Bitcoin is an amazing tool to do that because anywhere you have electricity, you have the potential to to sell that electricity to market anywhere you're generating it. And in the oil field, people generate. You know, oil and gas producers have been generating power on site, you know, forever right, they generate power on site to to run their own equipment, to run their pumps, and so that's not foreign to them.

Now all they need to do is plug in some computers, take some capital risk, understand that capital risk, but what end all of a sudden, they are now effectively selling gas downstream to market. So you know, it's really just that that as much as it's immutable to transact, it's an immutable it's a truly free energy market. For the first time in the world, we have an energy market

that is not puppeted states or anything. Now kind of getting where you're going with that, because in order to sell your energy to the market, it's not necessarily free market. So it's all types of bus and hoops that you would have to jump into to even get that. So a lot of it's stranded, whether it's too far to

even get it into a pipeline or whatever. And even if I could, then there's all types of regulations I have to go through to even sell it to the market, Whereas I could just drill it on my own land, hook up a hook up, a couple of rigs, a couple of bitcoin minor rigs, and I could just sell that energy to market right there, I guess, is that kind of what you're saying. Think about it as exporting.

You're exporting your energy to the bitcoin network, and you don't You don't need a license, I mean as far as right now, right the government is required, but even if they required it, you wouldn't need it to actually do this, right like, you would be successful in your attempt of selling your energy. But it's it's a means by which to export because the biggest thing is a buyer mark. I mean, think about it. You can't sell

energy today without somebody buying it unless you're mining bitcoin. Right. It was pre programmed thirteen years ago to buy your electricity today. And that's a that's an amazing thing, right, That's something those in the energy industry couldn't have even have dreamed of. If somebody would have hypothetically discussed something like this, they would have been laughed out of the room. And so the reality is kind of stranger than fiction. And where I mean, it's a it's an interesting way

to look at it. You kind of flip it upside down. Where I see that as as having a massive impact is going to you know, third world countries where they need more energy. I just recently did an interview with Alex Epstein talking about the fossil Future, and it's talking about how the world needs more energy right um and

specifically in these terrible countries. But a lot of times they can't go build the energy there because there's not enough people they're willing to pay for it, so they have no one to buy it to the point that you're making. And so now they can set up and they have built in buyers and it can help offset the help scale that well, it's it's the chicken and the egg problem right where some of these communities, I mean, Nigeria is a great, a great example where Nigeria is

so rich in energy it has. I mean that the country effectively runs on diesel where they have diesel generators everywhere. They're just businesses run with the diesel generator in the back.

They have very poor grid infrastructure. But but you're right, I mean, if I go in, you know, even if I'm like humanitarian and I go spend fifty million dollars to build power generation in in a third world country, a place without infrastructure, even if I'm successful in building it and everything's great, I don't have a I don't have a buyer, right, um, And so the investment is moot.

And what you end up having is you end up having these these charitable organizations like the Gates Foundation or something will come on and and they'll go and they'll they'll do a project like this where you know, maybe they'll do solar and they'll start trying to provide electricity at a loss. But the problem is now you're you're subject to that entity, right, Like that entity if they go away, nobody else is going to come replace that entity.

It's truly charitable. With bitcoin mining, there's a market there, so you can set up infrastructure, you can mine as you scale and as you build out infrastructure for there to become a demand market, right, So it's that it solves that really, you know, kind of infinitely long problem.

It's such a it's such a big topic, and you know, you know, you and I we spent a lot time thinking about this, but most people have just never really thought through this and and what the implications of that means, and they grab onto a headline and they don't even put any time into it to like think about it. But when you start unpacking it, Um, it's not a drag on the worlder on society. It's actually probably the

biggest gift that it's been given. So I want to dig into that a little bit more when we come back. You're listening to the Mark Moss Show. UM sitting down with Adam at Denver Bitcoin on Twitter talking about bitcoin and the decentralized revolution. I'll be back with him and more in a minute, So don't go away. I'm gonna be right back, all right, Welcome back. You are listening

to the Mark mo Show talking about bitcoin. We're talking about the decentralized revolution the world is going through right now. I'm joining the studio by Adam Oh. You can find them on Twitter at Denver bitcoin, and we're talking specifically about well energy, that's why it's a big topic. We're talking about bitcoin mining. And before the break, we were talking about how UM bitcoin is unique because it's it's it's permissionless, it requires no permission to join the network

or take advantage of it. And so he had brought up an interesting point where UM now it enables an energy producer, someone who had oil or natural gas, to sell that without needing permission, no permits or anything like that. But also you have a built in buyer. You don't have to go find a buyer. And the reason why that's important, if we kind of chase that down, is that we were making the case that the world needs

more energy. Alex Epstein was talking about in his book that you have these third world countries who have have have have all this unnecessary death because a mother can't even go to the hospital and have a sonogram because they don't have electricity to power the machine, or a baby is born maybe prematurely and there's no incubator to put that baby into because there's no electricity, and so UM while many people are talking against energy today saying

that if we don't find a way to curb electricity, that the world is going to go into this apocalyptic future, and uh, for a lot of people, for actually about three billion people in the world today, we're already living in that apocalyptic future. And we could solve that. But the problem is how do you pay as you as you made the case then, Adam, even if you're philanthropic like Bill Gates, how do you go in and put that energy there if there's no one there to buy it?

And so bitcoin could allow you to have an instant buyer to offset that, and then people could start tapping into it, and then eventually as enough people use that energy, you could then remove the bitcoin piece that was kind of helped subsidizing it, and then they could have this energy and then you could have a whole community they're using it, and then bitcoin can move on to the next place. Is that kind of how you're seeing it, Yeah, I mean it's it's kind of the inverse of what

we're seeing in Texas right now. Right in Texas we see an over abundance of supply of energy. Right there's a lot of flaring going on. I think it's about of the flaring in the United States is out of Texas. Um. Keep in mind that's a billion cubic feet a day okay, over a billion cubic feet a day UM of methane gas and so, and that's just in the oil field.

And so because those that don't know when you're you're talking for those who don't know you're talking about when you when you're getting oil out of the ground, natural gas as also comes out of the ground, and because of where it's located, for whatever reason, they aren't able to capture that natural gas and get it to market. So instead they just either vent it, let it go into the or they burn it and they burn it into the air, right, yeah, yeah, they flare it, they

burn it, um. And it's typically like you said, it's I mean, there's there's not very many oil wells in the world that don't have associated natural gas at least enough that you know, it's it's measurable and it's something that would be flared. So pretty much every oil well

um has some associated natural gas. And so because of that, like you said that, the economics are such that you know, you're not gonna build up You're not gonna spend millions of dollars to build a pipeline that's gonna make you a dollar a day and gas sales right just you're

gonna flare the gas. And so in Texas we see that, we see ton of that, and we see an over abundance of energy supply, and so bitcoin miners are coming in and they're they're trying to help provide what they call load curtailment right where grid providers these very big power generators. It's it's very costly and the economies of

scale or are brutal when it comes to um generating power. Right, some of these turbine engines, for example, natural gas turbine engines, they take like a day and a half to turn off, like to stop, you flip the switch and turn the engine off. It's still spinning for you know, thirty or

four hours. And so you know, these are serious pieces of equipment, and the problem is you can't be very responsive because you know, it's like you're just gonna shut down a turbine when all of a sudden, nobody, you know, everybody turns off their heat or everybody turns off their air conditioning. And so what they're doing in Texas as miners are coming in and any time that the grid

isn't demanding power that's being generated there mining. They're pushing that electricity over to bitcoin miners, and then any time those on the grid start demanding, they shut off bitcoin miners and they they you know, throw the electricity back.

Kind of the The inverse would be what you just said in the third world country where you come and initially you'd only generate enough electricity to power exactly as many miners as you have as you build out infrastructure, and and again this would be a decade long process where then maybe slowly, you know, you you go find somebody who wants to manufacture, you know, something like aluminum or some energy intensive process, maybe even another data center

of some sorts. You find a customer for that electricity which before you didn't have, and then from that customer you can say, hey, look, I can I can either increase my energy production or I can take half of my miners and turn them off and I'll push the

other power to you. And then now you prove this concept, and then you go raise money and you build up more infrastructure and the next thing you know, you know, fifteen years later, people are lifted out of poverty and energy I mean, I I totally agree with that, Alex Epstein. Energy is the solution to human suffering, at least the majority of it. UH energy consumption directly correlates and corresponds

to quality of life, length of life, birthrates. And what we're seeing today is that they're, like you said, market, there's unnecessary death. UM it's and a lot of that death is truly tragic, right it's. It's upper acute respiratory illnesses that are caused because people are burning dirty wood to cook their food in a poorly ventilated environment, and

they get a sickness and they die. Whereas if they had a gast over heck, even if they had a bag of coal, like they would be fine, right, we would, we would say, dozens of millions of people. UM energy is the solution to a lot of human suffering. Bitcoin being a autonomous demand market, right, an autonomous energy assumption market. And what I mean by autonomous is is it it takes care of itself, like there is there's no helpline,

there's no UM managerial staff. You know, sometimes like it happened when China banned bitcoin mining, like all of a sudden, the competition on the network can either go up an incredible percentage or get chopped in half. And you know, if that was any other market, when that happened and the hash rate got cut more than in half, um any other market, the markets ares or the regulators or the politicians would have stepped in and controlled it. Right.

We've seen it Amazon, like half half of the Amazon web services A data centers got shut down or something right exactly right, like they freeze the stock market like they wouldn't you couldn't trade. But if you're a bitcoin miner, when that happened, to all of a sudden boom, you were more you were earning double the amount of bitcoin that you were a week ago. And it's it's a lander.

It's an absolute you know, foot race to who can get that hash rate back up online until we meet that moment of equilibrium where to generate power now is is you know bitcoin mining Bitcoin is not economic enough, you know, to go generate new power for it until the price goes up and then all of a sudden, you know, it demands more power. So to that point, what I would say is the numbers are really uh massive where bitcoin it justifies a multimillion dollar bitcoin price.

If we want to see even up of of the global flare gas be used to mind bitcoin, We're gonna need to see a multimillion dollar bitcoin price otherwise the economics won't make sense for that next person to come in and mind that's how much energy is wasted every day. Of course, who knows how much flare gas will hap and for how long at the rate. And we're going with these policies that we have trying to you know, no new investments going into the oil fields. And then

and and that there's a different conversation. But I was thinking about also something you were saying. How about a year ago, I'm sure you probably remember Kevin O'Leary, Mr Wonderful from the Shark Tank. He came into bitcoin and he said Bitcoin is great, but I'm here to fix it, like every other rich person that comes in like it's great, but I'm here to fix it. And he started this whole conversation that through the kind of the whole industry into a tailspin. And he said, um, you know, I

like bitcoin. It's good, but I need to fix it because it's all you know, it's bad for the environment, and we're going to figure out a way where we can mine it. And tag it as it's it's come from clean energy. That's what we're gonna do. And then then I seem like Elon Musk got involved, and then Michael Sailor got involved in his mining cancel and the

whole thing went to his tail spin. Well, this year at the Bitcoin conference, I got to work the news desk with Mr. Wonderfully, I sat next to him for a while and I gotta have a conversation with him, and he went from last year it's great, I need to fix it, we need to change mining. And he told me this year when I was sitting on the desk with him, that he's completely changed his mind. I asked him why, and he said really, He said, bitcoin

is gonna save the environment. What It's gonna save the environment because it's as pioneering all these other forms of energy, small nuclear au thorium reactors, like other types of energy. I want to I'll tell you more about that in a minute. You're listening to the Market Mo show. We're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about the decentralized revolution. We're talking about capitalism turning trash into treasure and how uh we can save the energy markets with bitcoin. I'm talking

with Adamo from Denver Bitcoin. We will be back with that in more in a minute, so do not go away right back, all right, welcome back. You are listening to the Mark Mo Show. We're talking about bitcoin, we're talking about the decentralized revolution. I am joined in the studio with Adam Oh. You can find them on Twitter at Denver Bitcoin, and we're talking about bitcoin. We're talking

about energy. And before we went to the break, I was specifically talking about how I sat on the news desk with Mr Wonderful Kevin O. Leary and he went from a year ago saying Bitcoin, I need to fix it because I can't have any bitcoin it's been if it's been mined on this dirty energy, to now saying that bitcoin is actually gonna save the environment. I mean, a crazy one eighty And I asked him and he said, well, because it's going to pine it's it's it's it's helping

to establish renewables. UM. It's helping to pioneer new forms of energy that we might not have before. UM so maybe small nuclear reactors, things like that, and it's finding much more efficient ways to produce energy. I thought that was a pretty amazing about face you're shocked to hear that. I'm I'm very shocked to hear that. I was. I was ready to jump in, um I. It took everything to not interrupt you the that's great news, right, Like, that's that's part of the evolution, and that's what I

want for the world. And I think it's one of the reasons that I've you know, Alex Epstein, I'm I'm a big fan of his. I think he he's really been out there taking it in the teeth and fighting the good fight um on on this energy topic, and

certainly when it comes to fossil fuels, hydrocarbons. But that's great to hear because what that means is Bitcoin was the rabbit hole that taught I mean, Kevin Leary, what he's a you know, everything about his any introduction he ever gets is about his experience, his wisdom, his investment. I mean, he's seen a thousand, a million pitches um for businesses and ideas, and yet obviously he still didn't really understand how energy and electricity worked until Bitcoin forced

him to. And you know, at upstream data, that's that's kind of the cascade. But we've seen too, you know, I was a customer of Upstream Data. My dad and I invested a small amount of money, and I mean for the amount of money we invested, it's I mean, it's it's a joke, less than six figures UM. And we've we've mitigated over twenty million cubic feet of c H four emissions, right, methane emissions which are eight five times more impactful heavier as a gas than carbon dioxide.

And it's methane, right, it stinks, it's it's much more of a waste, in my opinion. So what happens with that methane? Right? So instead of it being invented or flared into the system ecosystem um, you're now putting in it. The natural gas now goes into a turbine or some sort of a generator which then turns it into electricity for the power of the miners. But what happens to the methane It just doesn't ever methanast or does it go to the generator of the turbine and then get released. No, No,

So that's the methane is the energy dense molecule. The SIEGE four is the energy dense molecule that you're you're using to to run the turbine. So yeah, instead of going to the flare where the reason they flare it is because when you can bust c H four, the resulting product the CO two and H two. It's carbon dioxide and water. It's the same thing that's probably sitting on my microphone right now, right, UM. And so that what I would call that is is pretty darn clean

exhaust right, cleaner than gasoline engine. Um. And so you run into an internal combustion engine, what you find is, you know, if you're burning it through an engine, there's a ninety nine efficiency of burn, whereas if you're flaring, it depends on the environment. Right North Dakota, it can get up to fifty winds. You might only find that that that flare is seventy effective. And so a lot of that methane is just spewing into the environment, you know,

getting released into the air. Now, in Canada, there's a lot of they still allow venting. So there's a lot of oil and gas producers that are truly they're not even they're not even burning it, they're just letting it spew into the air. And there are allowed fifty cubic feet per day UM and so coming in and internally combusting that there's no doubt. I mean, any any scientists, andy geologists would tell you that this is you know,

any chemist would tell you this is better for air quality. Um. Not to mention the you know, the economic waste of natural gas Siege four. It's a very clean fuel and it's incredibly energy dance. You know, these small little fifty cubic feet of gas can power a kill a lot engine continuously, which is a lot of miners, right, And so I think I think his coming around is everything,

um right. I mean, every time we deploy another bitcoin mine, another person is getting educated on maybe they're going you know, maybe it's an oiling gas producer who's spout on energy and well grounded, but he's going to go down a financial economic rabbit hole because now he has to go challenge whether or not this bitcoin thing is is Mario coin, magic internet money or or something real. And so you know,

the more we can deploy, the better. Something else I've been looking at was interesting, is like this contrast or really it's it's just competition playing out in real time, which is what we should have. And so the United States being a republic, we should have fifty independent states that then can compete against each other and we can try different ideas. And so we're seeing like New York

just putting the ban on bitcoin mining. Then we're seeing like Texas opening up to bitcoin mining, even in Fort Worth mining bitcoin in city hall. I love to see that competition aspect, you know, I look at it from a bitcoin perspective, but also I mean, it's just an attack on h it's an attack on energy, but it's also an attack just on freedom, right. I mean, as Americans like, uh, we should be free. It's landed the free right. And so like, what is what is New

York City doing by banning bitcoin mining? They're really telling you what you can and can't do with your own computer, and they're telling you what you can and can't do with your energy that you buy. Right, if you want to dig into it, it's gonna be it's gonna be an absolute uh migration, right, I mean, folks like myself. Denver's Colorado is one where I'm I'm concerned because they were one of the first states to ban uh some of these really high end gaming computers. And I saw that, Yeah,

you couldn't even order these computers. Which they weren't even a six. I mean they a sis make these things look like like a battery here like nothing. Um And so I imagine that I'm not you know, we could be we could be close to following suit over here or having some you know, similar legislation. So I think it's a terrible thing. Um. I think it's a terrible

thing for individual freedom. And what you'll find is the in my opinion, the power markets in those locations New York City, it's going to become a nightmare because here's

the thing. While bitcoin mining, like Kevin O'Leary said, right, it incentivizes us to go out and try to try to come up with a new way to generate electricity because if it's if it's cheap, right, if it's if it's something like a hydro electric facility where you know the water gravity just pulls the water, right, or solar where you know there's there's energy coming there's input energy

that doesn't take any human capital or human requirement. Um. Absolutely, it's going to be investigated because now there's an immediate economic benefit. But we forget about all the pre existing infrastructure. Right, every single energy producer upstream is going to be a more efficient energy producer. They're gonna be better at getting their energy downstream um for profit on on the margin. This this lifts up all boats, right, This tide lifts

all boats with its with its use case. Right. Ultimately, bitcoin benefits oil and gas just as much as it benefits a wind turbine. Now that been said, a wind turbine is a lot less efficient, right, you know, the winds blowing with no one's demanding, and so there's these these peaks and troughs. Bitcoin is great for that, but it also makes an oil and gas producer, you know, be able to go drill wells where it maybe didn't make sense to drill wells because there's not that much

oil and there's nowhere to sell the gas. But now we have somewhere to sell the gas. And the oil is kind of the byproducts, right, where the gas is the main commodity, even though it seems to be the most of history, it was the the association, it was the waste product. And now, hey, I don't care if there's only a couple of barrels of oil in there. I want a day of gas because then I can power this many miners, and you know, we have passive income.

So it's I think countries like Canada's one where orlan gas producers. The more and more they get squeezed, the more and more they begin to to get you know, kicked, kicked by regulators and and put down by at least a federal kind of bureaucracy. Um. I think they'll be in center is to export their their hydrocarbons to bitcoin countries, right. I mean, the US is putting sanctions on Iran, sanctions on Venezuela, the very energy rich nations, the United States

can't stop them from mining bitcoin. And now they know that, and so they can take their energy, turn it into bitcoin and then go trade with their allies and bitcoin and settle global trade in bitcoin. They never entered the US dollar. They literally just completely circumvented sanctions and so you know, all the way down from the individual to the nation state. This is going to disrupt energy probably more than finance. Yeah, yeah, And I mean Tiger disrupted finance.

I mean New York. New York is actively trying to get rid of their title as the finance capital of the world. Wall Street has of course been the finance capital of the world, but through the pandemic, both through being so strict on their regulations in lockdowns and through the crazy high taxes. People decided they had enough and they've been leaving. And so New York has been losing everybody. Wall Street specifically has been losing to Florida specifically like Jacksonville, Florida.

And now we have a new financial system being built and they're specifically righting themselves out of that as well. And so we'll see Darwinism and competition play play out. UM. I have some other questions I want to get into about some of the economics, UM, before we do. We're listening to the Mark Moa Show. UM sitting down with Adam Oh. You can find them on Twitter at Denver Bitcoin.

We're talking about energy. We're talking about natural gas, talking about what we're talking about bitcoin mining, different ways we can use it, in ways we can power new technologies. I got a lot more to come back in a minute when I come back, So uh, don't go away, We'll be right back, all right, Welcome back. You're listening to the Mark Moa Show talking about the decentralized Revolution. Of course we're talking about bitcoin. I'm joining the studio

with Adamo. You can find them on Twitter at Denver Bitcoin. He works for a company called Upstream Data, Inc. Which helps people turn trash into treasure, taking vented or flared asked that could be potentially bad for the ecosystem and turning it into economic energy or bitcoin. Now I'm curious, Adam, because, uh, you know what we've we've been talking about where you have these uh you know, drilling for oil wells coming out of the ground. Natural gas comes out of the

ground as a byproduct. Um For years and even still now, no one's been capturing that natural gas because it wasn't worth enough. When I really first started learning about this, it was like two dollars, you know, was it two dollars a gallon or whatever? Umm? Mcf right? Um, Now it's up to what is eight nine per mcf or whatever.

It's pretty historic, actually, yeah, eight dollars and mcf is crazy. Yeah, So it's like crazy, which then of course changes the incentives around it, which is like, shoot, we shouldn't be flarings anymore. We should probably do something with it now. But one of there's other issues involved, so it's strand it could be way out in the middle of nowhere. Where I don't have pipelines, there's no way, really way to get it there. It could cost me millions and

millions of dollars to get pipelines out there. Whatever. But what I'm curious about is two things. So one, Um, if we're at eight or nine dollars mcf right now, which is to your point, historic, but that's actually cheap globally, right we're about what globally or something like that, I'm not exactly sure where we're at today. Well, yeah, I think Europe because of the whole Russia Ukraine. I mean, Russia's pretty much had a monopoly on Germany's gas, and so, um,

I think it's probably double if not. Yeah, the US has been somewhat insulated from global pricing because we haven't really been exporting that much. But it looks like there's quite a few LG facilities getting put together right now, which we could see within the year start becoming a major exporter, which then could put us into the global

price of l G or or or natural gas. So I guess what I'm curious about is if I could sell it right now for eight or nine dollars mcf, maybe I might be able to sell it for within the year. Um, if I decide that I don't want to sell it and I want to just put a start start mining bitcoin with it, do you know how

much I'm earning per mcf that way? Of course? Yeah, No, it depends on what a six year deploying because there's because the efficiency of the ASIC will determine how many how much computational work per unit of gas or per unit of electricity. And so right now, what I can tell you is using the latest and greatest models, you're about thirteen to fifteen dollars in mcf right now. Um, last year we we saw over thirty five dollars in

mcf UM. We had guys in the oil field back in seen that you know, they were initially earning ten dollars in m cf This was back using older generation a success nines. But then December came around and when bitcoin ran up to twenty thousand, right, they made like they were making like eight dollars in mcf um. And so at the end of the day last year there was a big run from the oil field. Right. Oil and gas woke up to bitcoin mining in a in a massive way. Right, tons of new container bitcoin mining

kind of companies. All, a lot of oil and gas producers are getting funding and things. And what we what I think we found was that some certainly some over capitalized, um because they were like I said, they were makes in mcf and and gas was a lot lower. Right, Gas was like to fifty or three dollars in mcf, and so when you're ten xing on the margin, um, wow, like that's that's huge. And so the upfront capital was was definitely reasonable, certainly comparable if not better than a pipeline. UM.

So the investment came in big. Now, what we're seeing, like you said, a tightening where maybe that arbitrage is only five dollars in mcf, right, which it's still significant, and certainly when you're talking about millions of cubic feet of gas, But it's all about I guess that relative investment,

pragmatism or practicality, right. I think what we're finding today is certainly there are a lot more oil and gas producers that are willing to invest in a pipeline right now, because holy cow, you know, gases on one heck of a bull run energy is and it doesn't look like it's slowing up anytime soon. Um. But in the meantime, some of them are even looking at mining until that

pipeline gets complete. Right, so they're like, hey, we can we can do this on the interim, and then once this pipeline is here complete, we'll move this bitcoin mine to this well and we'll do the same thing. Um. And so I think that's one end of the day.

I think that's one big reoccurring theme is that is the portability of the of the demand, well, the portability and the scale, like the how fine you can get the scale right, we build it, you know, a hundred eight kiloot increments for our data centers, Like you can be pretty fine tuned and have little pieces. But beyond that, they're not directly competing. Right. The way I've always looked at it is, you know, this decade is going to

be spent. Oil and gas producer are gonna spend this decade trying to figure out the best way to incorporate mining bitcoin into their upstream operations. Right. There's gonna be some places where it makes total sense. There's gonna be some places where maybe it makes sense for a little while. Um. Sometimes when you know you're you're injecting well and so it's it's going to change the way oil and gas

producers um actually produce oil and gas. It's gonna change the way they drill right where Now a lot of the times in these remote locations, they'll they'll inject a well, they'll they'll blast it full of pressure, and they'll they'll try to blow off all the gas because they're really making a crude play um and it overall the overall production of the well ends up being diminished because of this, you know, kind of this high time preference. Let's get to the oil. We're looking to r o I. Our

investment right time is money. And so now they'll look at it and say, hey, let's slowly inject this well. Let's bleed off the gas. Will bring every single cubic foot to market profitably. And then we'll and then we'll make it a you know, an attack on the oil and the life span of the well will be increased,

the overall production will be greatly increased. Right, We'll find oil and gas producers becoming better stewards of the environment, better producers merely just because of the incives that Bitcoin lays out for them, just by giving them a portable downstream market with no counterparty risk, right, no buyer, And so as they begin to understand this, we're we're on

the frontier, right, we're on the bleeding edge. I think we'll look back in ten years and say like, oh, yeah, that was crazy the first you know, half ofies, you know, when when everybody was still trying to figure out what bitcoin was in the economics and the numbers of it. Um like, absolutely, well, we'll see that because right now it's kind of too hard to tell. Everyone's still trying to figure out what is this thing and what capacity, at what scale, at what frequency do we do we

incorporated this into our company. There is nobody really arguing anymore that it doesn't have a place. That's the good news. Um, I mean it's getting sorry, I've got to I've got a grandfather clock here. Um there, there there's a there's there's no there's no denying that it has a place. Um, it's just a matter about what scale and is this gonna be long lasting? I think some guys are still

waiting for bitcoin to fail. They're waiting for this to be like a boom and bust kind of a situation, which which which which brings me to a question that I had because it seems like for the last two years we've kind of had this almost perfect storm for bitcoin miners where from March we saw a bitcoin you know, in the high four thousand dollar range and then run all the wa up to seventy thousand, and as it's running from three thousand or four thousand to seventy thousand,

which is an amazing run, at the same time, you know, at half of the mining get taken off the network, so you kind of have this like extraordinary event where like all of a sudden you had this massive difficulty drop, so all the miners were getting more rewards because less people were mining, and the price of bitcoin was going up crazy at the same time. So it was like

the last two years kind of this perfect storm. But now I'm looking at it and I see all these publicly traded companies that have raised hundreds of billions dollars to start build giant bitcoin data centers um and so we potentially gonna see massive amounts of hash power come

on the network, which means lower rewards for everybody. What do you think happens in the near future with bitcoin mining in regards to that, you know, I'm more I'm I'm not as bullish on competition growing relative to to to where we're at because we were at such a

massive size now. Um, you know, for anybody that's that understands the reference, it's where two d x a hash or two hundred twenty million terra hash, which using the latest and greatest, most efficient machines, Um, you still need twenty five thirty megawatts for one million terra hash or

for one x a hash. Right, So if you need thirty megawatts for one x a hash, and you if you want to double the network, right, well, to go from two hundred to four hundred, we're seriously talking about six gigawatts of power, right That needs to come online and continuous probably needs to come online without anything else

getting shot off. So we're at such a scale now that that in my opinion, if bitcoins price does what it has done historically, it will there will be a lot of froth in the mining rewards market for a long time because if we if say, for example, if we if we went to a hundred thousand dollars in the next ninety days, if we had a crazy you know, run up to a hundred thousand, I would bet all the bitcoin and I own that there is no way, um the hash rate could triple even in five years

power both of those. You're trying to gauge where is the hash rate gonna go? But also where is the price gonna go? Um, you listen, You listen to the Mark ma Show. I'm in the studio with Adamo from at Denver Bitcoin on Twitter. We've been talking about what happens with the energy market, specifically, how does bitcoin fix it, not waste it, but fix it. Hopefully enjoyed that conversation to give at Denver Bitcoin to follow on Twitter. UM number one, Mark Moss, That's what I got for you today.

All right, thanks so much for listening.