Michael Saylor: The Blueprint for A New Financial System

and history of science. It seems like this unique blend and I'm just curious how that the history so you sort of get the history as well as like aeronautics, helps you maybe understand bitcoin better and maybe sort of see where the future of bitcoin goes.

to the extreme right. I had a background on all those things. I think it was useful to have studied physics. It's useful to have studied math. It's useful to have studied all of the sciences and the engineering disciplines, which get deep in thermodynamics and mechanics. And I think it's also useful to have studied history and philosophy and the

history of science. It's particularly interesting subject because it goes back and looks at the histories, but it's extrudes it through or filters through a scientific lens, like the classic non scientific historian says this happened, and this happened, and that was sulb optimal, right, and the history of science historians says that happened because of this. That happened because of this, Yeah, guns, germs and steel. Right that the Europeans didn't just show up to the New World and

then they conquered it. They showed up to the New World, brought a German every but he died. They didn't have to conquer it. I think ninety ninety five percent of the natives died, you know, And that's that's actually, you know, a biological explanation for what happened. If you don't understand you know, the science of immunology, or you don't understand germs, you couldn't explain it. And then you know, if you think about the impact of steel, what's to take to

create steel and explosives and gunpowder? You know. And so the history of science is all about how technology dynamics channeled the course of human history. And I think the reason it's important to bitcoin is is you can't really understand bitcoin if you're not an engineer. If you don't understand engineering systems, engineering control systems, servo mechanisms, the system stability, you've got to understand all those concepts. Intuitive if you

don't understand thermodynamics. You know, the people that are pure computer scientists who are weak on physics and engineering and systems. Oftentimes they create Reube Goldbherd devices in code that a hardcore engineer wouldn't build, right, And so you can't just

be a coder. And of course if you're a pure engineer and you reduce the world, or I built a ship or I built I built a gun, but you don't consider the implication of the ships and the guns on the course of economic and political history, right, then you don't really understand bitcoin either, because you have to understand the history of money and the history of economics and mercantel networks and yeah, yeah, the idea, the idea credit networks are local, like a German prints can have

a credit network, a British prints can have a credit network. But gold or silver networks tend to be transnational. Right that the French, the Germans, the Brits, the Persians and the Chinese could all agree to trade on a silver network or a gold network, but not on a Chinese

paper money network. And so when you start to understand the impact of technology has metallic money on economic networks, and then the impact of a ship with guns on it, you know, on that economic network, or the impact of not having immunity to all the germs the Europeans brought, or the impact of not having steel and being stuck in the Stone Age. All of those things have an impact on the way the world evolved, and I think bitcoin is it's crossing every one of those fields right now, right.

be missing half the equation. And if you're an engineer that doesn't understand economics and never been in business, or never traded internationally or never traveled yet, or didn't know anything about history, yeah, you would also understand only a part of the equation. So I just think you need to know a lot of different subjects in order to fully appreciate the impact and the significance of the invention of bitcoin.

you wrote in the past. But then also navigating those tech companies through the capital markets then sort of gives you a new perspective to see the deficiencies in the current capital markets that we have today and then help you kind of think about fixing those with jumping into sort of like this refinery model, trying to see solve some of the deficiencies in those capital markets the way companies are crue capital.

twenty that control all the attention. And so you know, most public companies are zombie companies. They're uninteresting, no one cares about them, They carry a huge burden of regulatory compliance, and they don't get the attention they deserve. So one could characterize the capital markets as being unwieldy, ineffective, right, And it's you know, and what is that they're twentieth century instruments that never really evolved in the twenty first century.

You got to ask the question, why does it take three years to raise money if you have a small business, Why can't you do it in three days?

till four in the afternoon. The year is twenty twenty five. We trade on NASDAK from nine to thirty in the morning till four in the afternoon. Right, what's the difference between the way my stock trades today and the way it traded twenty seven years ago?

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bad idea? If you listen to all the guenslor speeches for the last four years, it's always why this is a bad idea, right right, Like why can't why can't I issue a token, you know, for my small business over the weekend? Well, we got to protect the investors, right, Okay, So that's why we're going to disenfranchise forty million companies for being able to raise money, because the people that might want to invest in them might not be qualified

to make that investment. So it's kind of like, well, why don't we give cars to people below the age of sixty? Got to protect the pedestrians or protect the work.

People might get shocked, right, got to protect you know, got to protect the people that might get hurt by the new idea. So that's pretty much should be the existing status quo in traditional finance, and it has been for thirty years.

dollar ideas in the last year or two. And that's sort of in New York at the unconference, you talked about this refinery model and standard oil sort of taking this raw asset like bitcoin and creating products off of it. And so you're creating now products off of it. That's the model to do is what would be the kerosene of this industry.

outcomes pure grain alcohol. The equivalent of kerosene in the bitcoin industry is a treasury preferred credit instrument like stretch. So on one side you have digital capital bitcoin and bitcoin is a long duration, volatile, high energy, high performance source of capital. Long duration. Think of it in terms of like two hundred and forty months, like twenty years. You should if you want to get the optimal performance, you can hold it for twenty years. It's a ten

to twenty year type in man high volatility. Right now, it's about forty five ball implied ball. It's been fifty, it's been sixty, it's been seventy ball and high performance, you know, appreciating fifty percent a year. So that's the raw commodity. What happens if I if I strip away the volatility, strip away the risk, strip away or compress the duration, translate it to a given currency, and extract the yield. That's what a treasury credit instrument or treasury

preferred is. So that's what stretches. The idea is you build something that's got one month, like I'm going to give you ten percent dividend yield for one month. Like the duration is one, the yield is ten percent, the currency base is US dollars. The spread. It's like, if the risk free rate is four hundred basis points and that's a six six hundred basis point credit spread, I've extracted a six hundred basis point spread for the next month in US dollars. Maybe I five x overcollateralize it.

Maybe I ten x if I, you know, raw bitcoin is like one to one. It's like if I have a dollar bitcoin. I have a dollar a bitcoin and bitcoin trades down fifty percent, I've lost half my money. But if I ten x overcollateralize something I have ten dollars a bitcoin, I have one dollar of stretch. A bitcoin trades down fifty percent, I still get a dollar stretch a bitcoin trades down ninety percent, I still have a dollar of stretch. The statistical odds of bitcoin trading

down ninety percent or like points something. Right, It's a small percentage. So by over collateralizing, you strip away the risk by structuring it to adjust. If you put a set of adjustments or representations below below one hundred, you start to strip away the ball Telly on the downside. If like with Stretch, what we did is we put in a call option at one oh one, and then we told the market we're going to sell it actively

at one hundred or better. And then we also told the market we're not going to sell it below ninety nine, and if it's below ninety nine, we're going to raise the dividend. Okay, So you're kind of collaring this instrument. And then the last point is we created a preferred instrument where we pay it monthly in cash and then

we adjust the dividend every month. So it turns out if you scan in the history of preferred stock or the history of the credit markets, no company has ever issued a perred preferred stock where the management has discretion to adjust the dividend every single month. Like there are some preferred. That are floaters where they set the credit spread at three hundred and fifty bases points over SOFA, and they will float with SOFA with the risk free rate.

And there are a lot that are fixed where you sit it at seven percent, and the principle will trade up and down if sofur falls or arises. But the idea that the credit spread is completely variable is a new idea. But by the way, not a new idea in a world of credit, because who does this, well, Nation States do it.

of petroleum engineering. Right, I've done the most refining. I've distilled the highest quality product. You could imagine, for example, you could you could extract the same product and yen. So I want to create a yen instrument that's ten thousand yen that pays you know, a monthly yen cash yield or a cash dividend. I changed that every month, and now I've created the equivalent of kerosene for the Japanese market. And of course, what does everybody want? Everybody

kind of just wants. I've got some money I need to park for the next ninety days. If I put it in the bank, If I put it in the bank in Japan, I got fifty basis points or less. I put it in the bank in Switzerland, I get minus fifty basis points. If I put in the bank in Europe, I get two hundred basis points or less. If I put it in the bank in the US, I got four hundred basis points or less. And so what I'd like to do is put it in some kind of structure where I'm going to get my money

back in nine months or six months or whatever. The principal is not going to move around, but I'm going to get ten percent. Everybody wants a bank account of base ten percent out of four percent, two percent or zero percent. And and so I think I think the most interesting product that you can create, the most interesting digital credit product is a treasury preferred credit instrument for

corporate treasurers or for retirees. Right, just you know, and how big is that, Marcus, Like thirty trillion dollars in the US. Yeah, of just short term treasury money. So thirty trillion in the US that's getting paid, so fur.

collateral pool, the less the volatility. And then there are a lot of terms and conditions that you can put in the instrument that would constrain the volatility. So you decide how much volatility and risks you want to strip away, decide how much yield do you want to give it.

You decide whether you want it to be in pounds or Canadian or euros or yen or whatever you know, and then you distill out, you extrude the yield and the pure you know, boost over the risk free rate, and you offer that to the marketplace.

three to four times as much cash flow. Yeah, so that those are really interesting products that we're creating in the market.

you get PBC. You get the stuff that we make doors with it, we make walls with it, we make pipes with it, We wear it, we look through it, we burn it. Think about how profound it is. Like just around this room, if you glanced at the room, you probably find there's probably one hundred or hundreds of petrochemical products in this room.

the upside of the equity. So you get you know, you get an equity component, then you get like a right now, it's like eight and a half percent yielding, like it pays eight percent at part. So we gave it a divid end at eight percent. We gave it an equity component for some upside, and then we made it cumulative and so gave it some seniority privileges. And that's for people that kind of just they don't want to buy bitcoin and be on the roller coaster. They

want to get I call it a bitcoin fellowship. It's like, you know, it's like you buy it, you're waiting for the upside and you're getting paid to you know, a living stipend right while you're waiting, you know, for the principle to appreciate. So that's one instrument.

So that's for people that want some upside with downside protection with guaranteed cash flow, right, which a lot of investors want, right, I mean a lot of investors they if they wanted max upside, max volatility, you would buy the bitcoin, right. But can I go thirty years without any cash flow? Can I go ten years without cash flow?

senior credit. So it pays ten percent dividend in par forever and that means that it doesn't adjust. It's like it's like a you know, it's not a bond because it's a dividend. It's better than a bond because in that if you want cash flow, because the dividends get better tax treatment, and it becomes if it becomes a return of capital, which is what it is right now,

it's completely tax deferred. So that's that's for someone who's a long term credit investor, and it happens to be senior in the capital structure, so it so it gets paid off before everything else, and it has penalty provisions if we ever skip a dividend, right and so extremely risk adverse institutional investors that want the credit but they want to be ahead of everybody else in the stack,

they would buy that. Well, that's trading above par right now, so it pays like nine percent effective yield, okay, because it's senior. We followed that with the identical instrument. We basically weeded ten percent at par, but instead of cumulative, we made it noncumulative, and we may instead of senior, made it junior, and instead of the penalty provisions, we took them.

paid three hundred and sixty bases points. So do you want do you want twelve points five or twelve point six percent for the junior instrument or do you want nine percent to be senior? Well, if bitcoin, you know, go sideways or up, and if the company doesn't fail, then it's going to cost you three point six percent a year for the rest of your life to not trust us, right you see, So now you've actually got

there an actual credit spread. If you're wondering what is the equity premium between being senior and then having having none of the representations where you've actually got the market tell it's like three point six or three point seven percent or something. It varies every single day. If you don't trust bitcoin, if you think bitcoin's gone to zero, you wouldn't want to buy any of this, right, And so then it comes down to how much do you

trust the company? And if you know, people buy dividend bearing equities all the time, like every single equity, if you buy Verizon equity, if you buy a telephone AT and T equity, they pay dividends, but they're not required to. They could suspend them without prejudice and without penalty at any time. So could Apple. Do you trust the company? Correct?

raising vehicle for us. And the big idea is, unlike most companies that issue credit apologetically in order to deal with the crisis, we issued credit strategically, enthusiastically, with the intent that the credit is the product. See when Boeing issues preferred stock, the product is the airplane. They sold the preferred stock because they ran out of money to build airplanes. We issue the preferred The product is the preferred We didn't never run out of money. We issued that.

You know, why did you sell a billion dollars of Stride so I could sell ten billion dollars more of Stride? Why did you sell a billion dollars of Strife so I could sell ten billion dollars more of Right, So we have a very different business model in that regard.

We created the Stride so we could create the credit spread because we literally wanted to have an investment grade type instrument, a senior one, and we wanted to have a junior one because there's one class of investors that want the junk credit, like they want twelve percent yield, right, it's like, it's very simple, do you trust the company? Do you want twelve and a half percent? You know, do you have trust the company and you prefer to

take the nine percent? Well, iron it. There's markets for both, and they are not the same investor. Yeah, there are days when everybody wants to buy Strife and they don't want Stride, and there are other days when they want to buy Stride, and so so that was part of building out the risk curve. And then the last thing

we did stretch was a very different idea. Instead of paying an eight or ten percent perpetual dividend forever, we just said, hey, let's actually reduce this to one month duration, right, and so we're only promising to pay this dividend for a month. The other one is a promise for one hundred years. And so theoretically the mcaulay duration, the theoretical duration on the other instruments ends up being between like, you know, eight and twenty years or eight and fifteen years.

It's very long range. Take of a lever that's one hundred and twenty months to two hundred and forty months long, and you know, you have a little change in interest rates, and that's a very big lever to the good of bad. But with Stretch, the idea is a one month duration. Of course, inherently that's going to be less volatile. And you're like, well, I'm not going to get capital appreciation if Soufur dives by foreignerd basis points, I'm not going

to double my money. Well, exaly, exactly, it's the treasury instrument. You're not buying it to double your money. If you want it to double your money if Sofur dives, you would buy strife. Right, that's the instrument for the credit investor that wants to actually ride it up when interst rates fall, or wants to do the opposite when interustrates rise.

That's a different instrument. It turns out the most people, right, corporate treasurers, retirees, retail most people, they're not really interested in being long duration credit investors. Like ask the average person, do you have a bank account? Yes? Do you have a thirty year treasury bond?

Other people like I want nothing to do with the common stock. I just want you to pay me ten percent on my money until I ask for my money back, right, That's what they want. It's a very different, uh financial instrument for a different investor.

the debt is over collateralized. Yeah, governments will never stop printing money, so inflation it's not going away. Now. If your money's not earning at least ten percent a year, you're losing purchasing power. Now, that's why I talk about big. It's the number one way to beat inflation and secure your future. And the question I get asked almost every day is where do you buy your bitcoin? Now? For years, I've personally use River dot Com and I only take on sponsors that I use and I trust, and I

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You've got mortgage back credit. It's when you're basically issuing credit back by mortgage payments of homeowners.

then you've got municipal credit. You know, a little bit safe, but it pays nothing, right, it's like almost no two to three very little yield in municipal credit back by cities and projects like you know, you've got bank credit. That is when you deposit a million dollars in the bank account you bought bank credit. You know, they're selling you bank credit and they're paying you the sofa rate or the risk free rate, et cetera. So that's there's that,

but you know it's pretty uncompelling in most countries. I mean the best is the US, In Switzerland and in Japan, it's like nothing, right, it doesn't pay anything.

And the issue is are you going to want what are you gonna be able to buy with the currency or the issue you're gonna get paid? So really, the big bran, when's the last time in one hundred years there's a new form of credit. Every one of those credit instruments, they've all been around for a while. You could argue that mortgage credit evolved into a higher form with Freddie, Freddie Mac and Fannie May. Right when what happened the government started underwriting the credit risk of mortgages.

That drove down the rates, that created systemic risk, right, so that changed a little bit. But the idea that a company's going to borrow money, or someone's going to mortgage their property, or a government's going to borrow money, or a seat's going to borrow money, none of those are new ideas, right that you can trace them all

back for hundreds of not thousands of years. So the idea that you know, what was a quasi stable idea issue credit on gold on a monetary asset, well that you know, we saw that in the seventeenth century, the eighteenth century, the nineteenth century, even the twentieth century. You could argue, you know, British sovereign debt, French sovereign debt, they were all gold back credit instruments, and they were all backed by various amounts of gold, but it was

almost never one to one. It was always like under collateralized, and eventually it would probably got down to five percent collateralized. In nineteen seventy one, and that's the end of the gold back credit era, right right. And so now you have digital credit, you have digital gold, you have bitcoin. Bitcoin is digital gold digital capital. The killer use case

of digital gold is issued digital credit instruments. And the aha, the aha moment is any company, any publicly traded company, can create a digital credit instrument with any degree of yield, duration, delta, or risk, and to a certain degree with a man with any amount of volatility that they want. Right, if you want extremely low volatility, you can't create a lot of it. Like if you have one hundred billion dollars a capital, can you create one hundred billion dollars of credit?

That's low volatility enough. But you know, the real interesting question for all of us in the industry is can I create ten billion dollars of low volatility credit with one hundred billion in capital? Or do do I need one hundred x? Can I only create a I'm sure I can create one billion dollars of very very low volatile at one hundred times over collateralization. You certainly get done with ten x over collateralization. I think you'll probably also get it done at what level five x, three

x too? It at what level can you not? And of course that's a function of the bitcoin volatility too, because the less volatile Bitcoin gets, the easier it is to create these low volatility credit instruments.

Frankfurt Exchange, the Toronto Stock Exchange, how much liquidity. It's a function of the regulators because in a more flexible regulatory environment, the issuer has more tools to strip the volatility, and more inflexible traditional primitive regulatory environment, the issuer doesn't have the tools. They can't legally take the action, and even the technology rails. For example, you know, on the NASDA, you can't tissue a preferred stock denominated in euros on

the NASDAK on the Nasdaq can't do it. You know, So what if I wanted to pay a weekly dividend, in theory it would be less volatile. But technically, with the existing US banking system, it's not practical to snapshot the holders of record every week because there's like a three day delay, you know, So it's very problematic to pay a daily dividend or a weekly dividend. Even monthly

is about the quickest anybody's done. You know. There are some exchanges where they they're more inflexible on your about to say, do ATMs and issue securities at the market. You know, there are other there are other places in Switzerland they never issued. There's no support for preferred stocks in the market, okay, just the entire countries.

can't buy any preferred on robin Hood. Why because no one ever created one anybody wanted to buy. Because the market, because most there's a market for garbage, like there's a market for twentieth century traditional defective crippled credit instruments in the preferred market. Okay, they all pay six percent, they're undercollateralized, their opaque, their heterogeneous credit right, and they're issued by any of five thousand regional banks you've never heard of,

or buy five thousand reach you've never heard of. And they train cheap. They're all liquid. The bit ass breads are wide, they have QSIP numbers, there are no ATMs on them. No one's ever heard of them. Your private wealth that you know, think about this, one hundred thousand private wealth advisors. They're you know, pulling out their Bloomberg and they're finding the ninety seventh issue of some big bank preferred and they're putting it in your retirement portfolio.

And when it comes due or it gets called, they're rolling into something else and they manage your money and they charge you an x percent fee. And the person that actually owns that thing doesn't know what they own. They've got xxy QSIP fourteen nine two two three and they couldn't even read the screen. And by the way, there is no quote on the screen. You have to buy a Bloomberg and pay twenty five thousand a year

to get the quote. So yeah, there's that market. But uh, but the modern retail market, the digital market is like fifty million people you know, want to be able to trade on Saturday afternoon. And so that's that is not a criticism by the way of Robinhood. That's an observation that you invent a new thing, the existing distribution infrastructure never seen the new thing. There was no demand, so they didn't build out the rails to move the new thing.

So there's been an inertia in the system. At the point that those things become screaming home runs and twenty seven million people ask for them, then you know, somebody upgrades the rails and then they start to distribute them. And so that's what's going on in the world right now.

There are literally credit investors and fixed income investors their of you as well, and money manager's got to have a three to five year track record before we'll consider an allocation to them. Yeah, right, So I'm not again not being critical. That's just the natural inertia of the world. And we are moving very very fast in our industry right now, and the world's going to take a while to catch up.

the appetite is there. You just have to get a packaged up vitally in front of the right people.

to it. And if your goal was not to sell a billion dollars or half a billion of bonds, but rather to sell a billion dollars a quarter forever, if you wanted to sell billions of dollars a year forever, then you need to do with the perpetual instrument. And of course a five year bonds no good because in three years the bond's almost about to be called so.

who wants to be beholden to the bond market? Do you want to issue Do I want to raise a billion dollars account up the every four years for the next hundred years, because that's twenty five deals and each one of them is two percent fee, and so I'm going to pay fifty You're going to pay five hundred million dollars in underwriting fees. Or do I just want to issue the billion dollars once for the next hundred years and was not paid the next fifty percent in fees?

And of course the problem is not just the fees. The problem is the risk because if you get to a refinance point and there's a financial crisis or bank crisis, in the window to refinance bonds closes and now you

have to actually sell some of the underlying assets. So you know what, speaking of the raw Child's, if you read the history of the raw Childs, they were very famous for selling consoles which were British government sovereign debt issued you know, from like seventeen sixty on, you know, for a hundred years, and they paid three to five percent. They were perpetual that never came to par value one hundred pounds. So if you think about what that is,

that's actually just what stride is or strife. It's you know, what we did is just copied British sovereign debt from two hundred years ago. And it's a very humbling to notice that the world went backwards. In my opinion, one hundred dollars pounds one hundred dollars par value in pounds that pays five percent forever. A perpetual instrument is a better way for the government of the UK to raise capital.

It's a better instrument for an investor to hold. It would adjust the par value, adjust up above par or the principle adjust the above part or below part, depending upon the risk of the nation and the prevailing you know,

interest rate environment. You never have to refinance it. What happened between then and now, we forgot We swapped that for issuing five year notes, three year notes, one year notes, three month notes, and in the preferred market we issue retail preferreds baby preferred to the part value twenty five dollars or institutional part value one thousand dollars. I mean, is it not obvious to a schoolboy that one hundred

is a better part value than twenty five? Yeah, on one thousand, And isn't it obvious that having a perpetual thing that never comes due is a lot more elegant way to raise capital than having nineteen different You literally, if you look at US government debt, right, you have stuff coming due in March, in September, in April. Like you've converted a simple idea into twenty five or fifty different tranches of individual securities that have to be continually

joggled and traded. Yeah, you made it an accounting nightmare. You've made it a tax nightmare. You've made it a trading nightmare. What about that is better than the way that the British did it during the Napoleonic Wars.

in the IPO something like that. Now, looking backwards, is stretched the perfect instrument? Or really do we need all those different instruments for all the different people? And more specifically, my question is if you were starting over, would you skip ahead to like a stretch and maybe strike? Being convertible isn't the best instrument anymore? Real estate or bitcoin which every one's better. Well, it's not about choosing one,

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can see the demand in each one of them. You can see the liquidity profile. They all do serve different investor bases, so I don't regret having any of them out there. We will let the market decide what their appetite is. For each of the four. I would say, you know, in terms of plan, what we know is we won't focus on convertible bonds or eight bonds, junk bonds,

unsecured bonds. We won't do that. We will gradually equitize our convertible bonds as they come do and then, uh, if I were giving advice to a new digital asset company, a new bitcoin treasury company, if you will, I would say, you want to raise as much capital as you can, You want to buy as much bitcoin as you can. You don't really want to have senior debt. You don't want to have debt that has a lean on the bitcoin. You know, you in the ideal world, you might do

a convertible bond, but you don't. But it's not clear to me that you should. If someone wanted to buy a convertible bond from you while you're private, if they showed up with two hundred million cash and said, i'll give you two hundred million dollars in you and I don't want the equity, but I want to bond with conversion right and a thirty five percent premium, I might

take that money. That's not really reasonable. Having said that, if you're already trading in the aftermarket, the reason to do a convertible bond is you want to raise a lot of capital in a hurry. But the way you're going to raise the capital is the person that buys the bond is going to sell that much of your equity in four hours. So if you sell a two hundred million dollars bond, you're probably gonna create one hundred and fifty million dollars of selling pressure on the equity

that day. And then the question you'd have to ask yourself is whyannt you to sell the equity yourself? Right? And so a lot of five people that have the convertible bond, they don't have an ATM, so if you don't, if you're crippled because you don't have an ATM, the convertible bond is the de facto. You know, try party ATM, but you pay a price. Right, you might as well just dump two hundred million dollars of your own stock on the market, not owe anybody. The stock will take it.

Going to do it anyway, the stock will take a hit. But if you do the convert the stock will take a hit, but you'll still owe the money. You see, So I think that you could potentially skip that stage, and then you know, if you take if you take

the perfect structure. Here, here's here's an ideal structure. You raise a billion dollars, you buy bitcoin, and then you go to the market and you sell two hundred million dollars worth of treasury preferred credit instruments treasury preferred stock like stretch like if you just wanted as simple as possible. The equity is high ball, high performance, high risk, and the credit is lowball.

dollars in Japan. Must be fifteen trillion dollars. Right, Basically, ask yourself what is the sum of bank deposits, money market accounts, treasury preferred repo, short duration treasury credit instruments, and then you're given capital market. I would just uh, what is the word? Like, skip all the intermediary steps and go direct to the answer.

I just buy the bitcoin? It's like, well, I'm not selling to the big to people that want bitcoin. I'm selling to people that want ten percent bank accounts. Do you do you have a bank account the year is ten percent?

a simple story. It's like, I have a company, we own bitcoin, it's digital capital. We use it to back digital credit. We're selling a creditement or what does it do? Oh, it pays you five percent more than your bank account. Do you want it? Of course I want it? Right, So what's the objection? The only objection is it is the principal value stable, How volatile is the principle? How risky is it if it's If it's under collateralized and volatile,

you're not going to sell that much of it. If it's over collateralized and stable and theory, you're going to sell quite a lot, right, And just that simple. The largest IPO of the year this year, And you know, as states is stretch is our IPO. You're asking why because it's the simplest, most obvious thing. I'm going to give you ten percent?

I trust you? Do I trust bitcoin? So you reduce the entire thing down to is bitcoin? Am I trusting Bitcoin? Is the basis? You know, and do I trust the company? And it's kind of like, Hey, I have this penthouse apartment, you know, in an island city and it's beautiful and it's free. Do you want it? And the question is, well, is the only going to sink underneath the ocean? Do I want to live there? That's bitcoin? Is the granite solid?

and it's got a role. But and then we did Strife because it was the next obvious thing we thought of we needed a perpetual instrument, and we didn't. It didn't occurt us we could do anything variable. So we did the perpetual ten percent because that's what we could sell.

And then after we did it, we did Stride because we thought, well, if we strip away the cumulative rights, then this instrument potentially gives us unlimited leverage risk free, like we could in theory sell one hundred billion dollars of it with no credit risk. So, you know, why not.

And because we'd already sold Strife, and Strife and Strike were already successful, they already traded above par, it wasn't a hard thing to sell the identical instrument at a thirty percent discount through the thing that people already owned. You see. Yeah, we did stretch because we ran into a bunch of other headaches trying to trying to globalize the first three. It's just the lawyers are slow, the

regulators are slow. I thought, what can I do in the US market, which is not going to cannibalize those I thought, well, I'm on the fart of the yield curve. Let's go to the short end end of the yeld curve, right, the short end of the duration curve. So we kind of stumbled on it accidentally, and then as we iterated through it, we realized that it really was, you know,

a better product, and that's what people really wanted. So a lot of people that were buying the other instruments, they were buying the high yield, but they were getting the duration not because they wanted it. They wanted like, do you want the twelve percent with the risk that the principal will move up and down? You just want twelve percent?

May not be the last penny, but it's you know, plus or minus, you know, a small rounding error with a product that's a preferred stock, that's trading. You know, you're not looking to get to the sixth significant digit or the third decimal point, but you want to be plus or minus you know, ten, twenty, thirty, fifty basis points. Yeah, you don't want to be varying by one or two percent. You want to be varying by fractions of a percent.

And what you offer in return is, okay, I'll give you five percent more yield, and that is just slightly more. It's it's more flexible than a money market. And you got to go into that. It's not a money market. You got to go into it with your eyes open that money markets are trying not to break the buck, you know, at all. But on the other hand, you're targeting something to pay double.

not working. But if you look at strike or you look at strife, those things could trade if the interest rates fall one hundred basis points, strife could trade up ten or twenty percent. And that's not because it's failing, right, you know. And if you know, when Jerome Palell gives a speech and says, you know, I don't I don't

really think we're going to lower instrates as fast. You know, So strife trades down three four five dollars ten it could trade quite a bit because of what Jerome Powell said. That's not a failure of our instrument, you see, but you understand how much more complicated it is to explain that strife reacted rationally to the forward yield curve expectations, right, whereas with Stretch, I don't have to With Stretch, everybody

knows the mission. It's like we're pegging it to be between ninety nine and one o one, Like we're targeting for ninety nine to one oh one. And the way you'll know that it's in the range is what it's between ninety nine and one oh one, right, And when you canted, like my goal for strife is I want to see a trade to one fifty or two hundred, Right, you can imagine a world where strife is way over collateralize. The risk cre rate in the US is two percent.

We have a three hundred basis point credit spread. Strife trades with an effective yield to five percent, which means it should trade it two hundred. You see, that's success for that, but you understand how much more complicated that is, because what if it gets a two hundred, Well, we're going to be paying an effective yield to five percent. We'll be selling at a two hundred. But now what happens if you buy it at two hundred and interest rates get jacked two percent of the trades down to

one sixty. Did it work Yeah? Exactly as designed? Is some is a retiree going to be irate? Yeah? Like, waitmen, I got five percent more, three percent more, but it traded down twenty percent or something, and that's not what I signed up for. So you understand that looks scary. Those long duration, high delta, high high duration, high delta instruments look scary. They're very exciting for people that are professional investors. But we're we talked about the iPhone moment.

I mean, it's iPhone is kind of maybe not even the perfect metaphor. I mean, the perfect metaphor is a comfortable retirement. It's like you pick up the phone and call your dad and you say, hey, Dad, you know you have some capital and your four to one k. You put it in a stretch. It was paying you thirty two thousand a year. You put in a stretches going to pay you one hundred and twenty five thousand a year. What's the risk? Okay, there's no risk. I

mean there's risk, you know of a security. But the point is, you know, it looks like it's eight x over collateralized or five x over collateralized, which is more than investment grade companies offer you. Right, So it's great comparable risk if you believe in bitcoin. If you hate bitcoin, dad, don't take it. But if you think the bitcoin is okay, I can jack your retirement income from thirty thousand to one hundred and twenty thousand. If you do this, well, what do I have to do?

Like a billion? Like everybody? Right, it's it's basically social security and living happily ever after for a billion people. What do I got to do? All you got to do is just A, understand bitcoin, trust it, and then b you've got to trust the company or the security that you're buying. But once you get over those two, those two barriers, what do you get. It's like how many people would like their salary to go from thirty thousand to one hundred thousand dollars a year?

more complicated. And if you create something which is simple, that means you'll sell ten to one hundred times and much of it, right, But if it's a hundred times as much you sold, it's gonna be a hundred times of liquid. If it's liquid, it means you get in and you get out, right. So what we're trying to do is and that means there's less volatility. So at the end of the day, the simple universal product that everybody needs that's the most liquid with the highest day

you whim you see. My criticism of the preferred stock market and the corporate bond market is is they were never trying to create good credit. It was always crippled credit. It's like, why doesn't a big bank have one hundred billion dollars worth of a single preferred instrument with a four letter ticker that trades five billion a day with

a bit ass spread of a penny. Because because they never really wanted to create a good credit instrument, they they created, you know, ninety seven tranches of rolling debt issuances. It's it's an it's a traditional market and insider game they play with themselves. There is a set of traditional investors, and a set of traditional bankers, and a set of traditional issuers, and a set of a traditional mode and

they're all basically they're going through this hyper inefficient process. Yes, whereas when we created these instruments like stretch, you know, ask me what I want. I want to sell fifty billion dollars of it? I want I want fifty billion with two billion three but I want it to be the largest, you know, outstanding preferred stock issued in the history of the world. And already these four credit instruments,

they're already the most liquid preferred stocks of the century. Yeah, and that's in the first few months of their life. Imagine what happens three to five years from now after we've actually sold via the ATM every single month for the next thirty six months.

market is massive. As you've explained, the profit margin for you to create that product is also big. It's simple. The market's big.

or they're developing skyscrapers. Right, it's it's a means to the end. Or it's like the bank is, they're not bragging about issuing the world's greatest preferred stock. They did it because they have to for like tier one capital, mezzanine capital allocations so that they can make commercial loans

so that they can do something else. Right, So what we stumbled upon in the bitcoin treasury business is we just realized that if you were the first well run company that actually thought of credit as the product, then the killer application of bitcoin and the killer application of capital is to issue credit. And the killer application of bitcoin is to issue digital credit. And now, if you look at the at these things that were languishing, any public company in the US can issue a preferred stock.

Most just choose not to. When's the last time you bought a preferred stock from Microsoft? Microsoft, in theory could give you a ten percent yielding preferred stock. But could you imagine discussing that or pitching it to the CFO. They're like, are you out of your mind? Why would we do that? Right? And so most companies in the un less they could have, but it was never really I mean, it was never strategic to them. The ATM was developed I think by Michael Milken many many years ago,

the at the market shelf registration. But you know, if you were to go to Microsoft or Apple or Google or Amazon or Meta and say, hey, what do you guys think about selling your own equity, They're like, are you out of your mind? We buy our equity the money. Yeah, we have no use of the money. We don't have the use of capital. Okay, well you could issue credit instruments at the market. Well, we don't want to issue

credit instruments. And so what we did is we took existing ATM, applied it to a preferred stock, paired it with a radical different view toward treasury capital. We inverted the company, inverted the balance sheet, inverted the business model. Right, we're selling that's literally what we do. We credit is the product we created, We engineer the product, right, then we issue the product. We use the proceeds to build the capital structure, which then thereby boosts the performance of

the equity. Right, the elegance of it, it really is a symmetric thing of beauty. We're selling US dollar yield us D yield to create BTC yield. That's the swap. Right. The equity investors value the company based on BTC yield, the appretion of bitpoint per share. Credit investors value the

credit the credit security based upon us D yield. And so just swapping a FIAT yield, a y in a euro, a US dollar yield for a BTC yield with the bitcoin as the collateral on the middle is the business, you know, And and the skeptics and the cynics they choose to be strategically ignorant. And it's like like a hater, I don't want to understand the business because I might

have to agree with you. So if I've already decided I hate you, I don't want you to explain why what you're doing is going to save the world or help anybody, or help the shareholders. I just don't want to know. I'm going to choose to stick my head in the sand and be ignorant. But if you're more open minded about the entire thing, and you just embrace the idea that this is a new kind of company, a new It's not a bank because it doesn't it's

not regulated, doesn't take consumer and commercial deposits. It's not that kind of bank. It is a financial kind of company, right, and it's a new form of company. They're a bank, they're insurance companies, you know, et cetera. So, a treasury company is a company that issues securities in order to acquire capital. Now a commodity really you're issuing securities to buy a commodity. And if you pick a commodity that happen to be scarce, you create a very powerful feedback loop. Right,

work through your mind. If I if I do this on bitcoin going at fifty percent a year, I can easily pay ten percent capture the forty percent spread. That is an amplifier.

changing industry with that. It's great. You showed several slides of this Bitcoin factor, which is like this amplification of bitcoin, and so by doing the preferge, you're adding the leverage which then over time you use a ten year window, you can give you a bitcoin factor of two point eight to five six whatever. Does that number sort of relate into this m NAB number over a long period of time and sort of justify or show why that m NAB number should be greater than two or three or four.

So if a company can generate, say thirty percent leverage, then it's going to create an amplifier because you can see systemically, I issue a billion dollars of a preferred stock paying ten percent, I buy a billion of bitcoin. Right, if I own a billion dollars a bitcoin already and I was able to do that trade, I'd have two billion dollars a bitcoin, no additional common stock outstanding, you know, so you end up with fifty percent leverage on that.

So you start to generate amplification. Now we have models to calculate how accretive that is, how does that contribute to bitcoin per share? And it turns out that it's more accreative. But this won't come as a surprise. It's more accreative if the cost of capital falls. For example, raising the ten billion at five percent instead of ten percent is more accreative, right raising it at one percent. Imagine borrowing a billion dollars at one percent and buying

bitcoin that returns fifty five percent. You're capturing fifty four percent spread, right, So the spread that you're capturing as the function of you're cost to capital. So the lower the cost of capital, the more the amplication. The higher the leverage, the more the amplification, the faster. If you did all that the bitcoin went up zero percent a year, it's not terribly You don't get a lot of good amplification. Right. So it bitcoin goes out fifty percent a year, right,

that's more amplification. So the rate of growth of bitcoin, the ar bitcoin plus the leverage, plus the cost of capital, all those are primary factors that drive the amplification. That is a rule of thumb. You know, we kind of calculated that. You know, assuming bitcoin appreciates thirty percent a year and we get thirty percent leverage, then we should be able to get a three x BTC factor, or we can accumulate three times more bitcoin per share over

a ten year timeframe. So you could imagine an m non floor of three, right, makes sense? Or you know, how what do you do in percentage? Or you do that a factor and you know, for when you're evaluating a company, the question is how high can they take the leverage? How much is it going to cost them? There as second order effects like credit risk. Right, So I'm describing perpetual instrument never comes to there is no

credit risk there. But if you were, if you were achieving that leverage with a six month loan, yeah right, you can go on an exchange and you can actually crank up the leverage to three or four or five. But the duration is instant, right, you get forced liquidated overnight. When we're managing the business, we're constructing credit amplification in the most intelligent way. And of course, in my opinion, the least risky, most intelligent way to create credit amplification

is through publicly issue preferred stocks that are perpetual. Right, for the obvious reason, you never refinance them. The principle doesn't come due, and so the risk on the principle is the minimus. And then the dividends you know, are are subject to the approval of the board of directors, and the company can suspend the dividend or delay it for a time under financial duress, and so the coupon

risk is dominimous as well as the principal risk. The opposite extreme is a one year senior loan pledge the coladal of bitcoin, pay off the principle in one year and pay interest every month as a coupon, missed the interest in a month, you're in default, missed the principal delay it you're in default, missed the principle, you're in default, and the claudal gets ripped away and the entire company collapses. Right,

So intelligent leverage unintelligent risky leverage. Right, you want to go for one not the other.

figure out how you get there. For example, if you have ten billion dollars a bitcoin and you sell ten billion dollars worth of Stride s TRD, you would have a leverage factor of fifty percent no credit risk. Yeah, right, right, so you'd sell another five dolling of Stride right if you can sell it? Right? This all comes down to not should you? Can you?

finance companies. They generate intelligent leverage using various various tiers of equity, capital, mezzanine equity, preferred equity, senior, preferred, junior, preferred, little bit of debt, and then they got common equity. And the question is, so why, I mean, why does your favorite bank have to issue anything at all? They're the bank. And the answer is because they're actually creating a luck. What are you on the They're generating leverage

on the common that's all. I mean, JP Morgan, all these they could basically pay off all their debt if they wanted. But the point is they're they're trying to create leverage on the common to give the common stock value. So the only difference is they're not really strategic about their They're not trying to make their credit instruments the best in the world and brag about it, make them homo genius and transparent.

wants it to trade volatileated bitcoin. And you gave this example that if God came and spoke to you tonight and told you the market was going to crash tomorrow, and you woke up and headed your position in the market crash, but Microsoft didn't go down, be great, And you said, no, that wouldn't because the market expects us to move with bitcoin. And I think you were trying to explain to us during that during that is that sort of when the company is lean and sort of

strips down, it can trade volatility to bitcoin. And so I'm curious your take on sort of then having like that pure play company versus a company that's like a big underlying business that has a bitcoin treasury, and how that then maybe maybe potentially takes that common away from really being used like in the ATM, sort of almost neutralizes that part of the tool.

which is not schinerating shareholder value. Right, if you take a billion dollars and you buy money markets with it, the yeld two percent are three percent after tax, and if the S and P is generating fourteen percent, then you've underperformed the cost to capital by eleven percent. Therefore, your treasury is a cost center, not a profit center for the shareholders. And so what happens is it shribles up the company, basically decapitalizes the balance sheet, and they

give all the money away. And that it just describes in a nutshell, every well run company in the United States, right except Berkshire, Hathway, everyonewhere else, like all the MAGS seven. What they do is they defund the treasury. So if you're one of those companies, you could just place money markets with well, you could replace it with bitcoin instead, and bitcoin is fifty percent, or let's say a reasonable

twenty year forecast is thirty percent. If you're a believer, twenty percent of you're an investor, ten percent of your a skeptic. Right, But whether it's ten or twenty or thirty percent, they're all better than two percent or three percent, which is the status quo. Right, So if you're in the twenty or thirty percent camp, it outperforms the hurdle rate,

which is the S and P index. And so at that point, the treasury in the balance sheet becomes profit center, which means that you would stop paying dividends, you would stop doing buybacks, you would roll it into bitcoin, and the company's market cap would grow faster and the stock would grow faster. Right, So that's whay to create sheeriolder value. You won't be better than us, you won't be better than a pure play try company, but you'll be better

than your peers. Right, Like, if if you're a native business or your organic business is growing ten percent, you will go thirteen. Right. If every other retailer is losing money, you'll make money. Right. What we've done is created a pure treasury company. So risk, our risk free rate, our HERD rate is thirty percent. That's what I expect at a bitcoin over the next twenty years, twenty nine percent of let's call it thirty percent round up. So my

benchmark rate is thirty percent. If I put leverage on it, I should be we'll grow fifty or forty. I don't think there's any any non financial company. There's no there's no physical company that's going to actually appreciate at that rate because you can't do it with real estate or oil or natural gas. The investment cycles are too slow, you know, the develop cycles are too slow, the risks

are too ineff of ball, et cetera. So I would say, across thousands of companies, every company ought to recapitalize their balance sheet on bitcoin because that will cause them to grow fifty percent faster than their peers or than they would otherwise. They'll just be better and the compounds. Yeah, so a billion dollar company will be worth ten billion dollars instead of two billion dollars in a decade. Okay, if they were a pure play, they might go from

a billion dollars to one hundred billion. They won't do that, but that's not their bogie, And the truth is they probably can't get political consensus to change their retail or to sell the retail business and become a pure financial company. That's probably not going to happen. So I just think it's not a bad idea, but your expectations ought to be adjusted based upon the enterprise value mix, right Yeah.

Like if Microsoft bought one hundred million dollars a bitcoin tomorrow, ninety eight percent of the enterprise value would still be index to the software business, right yeah. If they bought a trillion dollars a bitcoin tomorrow, they still be seventy five percent indexed to the software business. So you can't get to one hundred percent digital exposure unless you actually start with a clean balance sheet.

seems like the killer product in the US. Maybe we do the same thing in yen or euros or Canadian or pounds, right, But otherwise there's nothing else that's all that exciting, right, I mean, and even those things are much less exciting than just growing the business in the US by a factor of one hundred.

regional banks. There's like ten major banks.

every country in Brazil. And by the way, in that way it may become better because if you're this, if you're the most compelling, fastest growing company in Brazil, then aren't you going to slurp up all the equity capital and all the credit capital in the entire country?

Saudi Arabia, India, Australia, Canada, Mexico. Okay, So there you could just be the first provider of digital credit, right, and maybe you sell kerosene, you sell stretch, but then maybe you also sell long duration credit or convertible credit or whatever. But then let's I've I've broken it down geographically, but then let's come back to the US and break it down by industry sector. Right, you could be the one that specializes in insurance or feeding the insurance company.

Or you could create a credit product that's like a reinsurance product. Right, you could you could create various credit products that are tailored to the life insurance, the annuities that you know, every other type of insurance, you know, flood casualty, property insurance businesses. There are a lot of buyers in the market, fixed income buyers. They just will not buy prefers no matter what. They'll want to buy bonds. Okay, So I don't want to sell them because it doesn't

make sense for me. But if you were saying, Mike, I got ten billion dollars, I want to compete with you, and I want to grow just fast or what it should I pick up, I'm like, man, I'm not going to do ten year bonds. Why don't you just do what I did, but raise ten billion dollars and issue a billion dollars a bar. It'll do one for four A offerings. Not compete with me. By the way, the market loves them. Yeah, start to do basically over the

counter institutional bond offerings. And the debate is do you sell five year instruments. I'm gonna sell five year secured bonds and I'm gonna roll them every quarter, or I'm gonna say, you know, you could go and do the convertible bond market if you want, or you could do unsecured, or you could do secure. I'm like, Mike, I found

like the biggest insurance company in the US. They don't want to prefer, they don't want the converts, but they would take senior debt as long as it's they've got a claim on the capitol for up to twenty percent of the capital structure or whatever. Yeah, and they have one hundred billion dollars they'll give me. Do you want it? I'm like, I don't want it right now. It confuses my story, confuses my investors. It puts credit risk senior to all my other instruments, and that kind of is

not good for my capital structure. But should you take it? Absolutely? You could probably take one hundred billion dollars. There's probably a one hundred billion dollars senior debt thing, one hundred billion dollars of junk unsecure. There's one hundred billion dollars or fifty billion to take out of the convert market.

You could probably write all sorts of custom instruments for the annuity industry, the insurance industry, and guess what, none of that's going to be interesting to the Japanese insurance companies. They're going to want different. So when you say what are all the products, I think the products are if

there's three hundred trillion dollars of credit instruments. I think the products are every possible currency every by the way, we can say euro, but you know, French bonds and euros aren't the same as German bonds and euros, right, So it's like every type of currency, every jurisdiction, every type of credits, every flavor of credit. You know, we issued a lot of things that you know. And then every districtribution channel do you go public on that exchange?

Do you do direct institutional sales? It's not clear to me. For example, we couldn't do something where we just like roll ten year bonds and you know, it's like, how do you handle the credit risk? Well, just every year we'll refinance ten percent of them, will never have more than ten percent, or maybe I'll just refinancing them every quarter. I'll never have more than two percent two and a half percent. So there there are other credit products that

can be created. There are other buyers, they're investors, right, But then again there's also corporations that would bypass, so like the pension funds and the insurance companies would get you could go direct to them and open up a pipe, and then there are all the bond traders and the pimcos and the vanguards and the fidelities of the world, and indirectly the pension funds and the endowments are behind them, right yeah, so you know, you might be able to

create the perfect product for an endowment. It's like, well, we like bitcoin, but we don't want we can't stomach the volatility. Can you just give me a ten percent guarantee? And then and then there's issue of liquidity, like, well, we would give you ten billion dollars, but we need the right to redeem five hundred million in any given quarter direct from you. Like I wouldn't do that deal

like for my company because it's complicating for me. But you might do that deal if the choice was have one hundred million dollar company and agree to create five hundred million dollars in cash on hand or not, right right, yeah,

And but we haven't explored that. But but there's a lot of there's a lot of you could create a quasi money market instrument where you are actually you know, Alix kept five percent of all the capital available for ready redemption on a daily basis, and then you you know how funds they'll create gated redemption windows, Like you're invested with me for seven years, but once a quarter you have a one day when you can give me redemt you can call, you could put you could put

call options and put rights or redemption rights into a preferred stock. I haven't you could. It's a different product, you No, some people like polyester, some people like lycra Yeah, you know, nylon. Yeah, right there, there's a lot of things you can do with carbon, hydrogen and oxygen.

security industry? You know, I mean thinks people created. Yeah, I mean there's hundreds of thousands of credit instruments, maybe millions of credit instruments, and you know, start to go online and figure out every possible twist and turn of every credit instrument. The average person can't even name the top five categories or top ten categories. So there's an industry there. The beauty is, the beauty is, there's a there's a methodology or a distribution channel to figure out

whether your idea is a good one. Like you create a security and you go and you offer it, and it's a two day road show or a one day road show, and the investors are either going to buy two hundred and fifty million dollars of it in one day or they're going to tell you we don't want any of it. It's very So you can create billion dollar product lines in a conversation with the investors in a one forty four a offering. How many consumer products that are a billion dollars can you create in two

days where you know for certainty it's going to work. Yeah, So I think that the capital markets are primed for innovative digital credit issues to go and create a dozen different, interesting, compelling things. You might not come up with the thing they want, but you won't spend more than a few days finding out. And you know, in the real estate business, people create a billion dollar building and no one's to lease it and it takes five years and they lose

a billion dollars. Yeah, that's never going to happen with the digital credit instrument.

one hundred million dollars a bitcoin the same hour. Like we could do a billion dollars of capital raising in a day, and we might have twenty million of exposure at four pm, and by five or six pm, we're fully done. The investment cycle is one thousand times faster than technology, real estate, oil and gas, anything else you've ever seen before in your life. And maybe the more profound idea is think about all these other credit instruments.

You know, what's backing corporate credit, what's backing mortgage credit, what's backing bank credit, what's backing all the you know all these things. If you saw a billion dollars of mortgage backed securities, who's going to build a billion dollars worth of real estate that someone wants to rent? And how long will that take? So this is a profound new idea and and that's why those digital credit issuers can grow so fast.

you said it in New York. You had said, I want to push back on the fix the money, fixed the world narrative, and because it was like, in order to succeed, we have to fix the equity and fix

the funds and fix the mak. So we need to go build the world that we want, And so I'm just curious, while we're here in DC, think about bitcoin policy, how do you think we should be sort of fixing that in this political environment more of like a constitutionalist we're sort of trying to get them to sort of pass laws that sort of protect us, or we are we pushing for regulations that give us clarity and direction.

with a good place. If your business model is digital credit, we've already got pretty well developed credit laws. The US has the most advanced rules. So if you're a US company you could get There are a thousand ideas I just gave you who knows how many different ones. There's a thousand things you could do starting with bitcoin in a public created company. Right now, you don't need any

regulatory changes, You don't need any new laws. You can go at it if you're a bitcoin treasury company outside the you and it's look that the Swiss are a bit behind on some things. The Europeans are slightly behind. They're slower on ATMs, the Swiss are slower on preferred stocks. The Japanese are a bit slower on this and that. So you have to go and lobby those regulators and those politicians to upgrade and update their exchanges, their rigs.

Sometimes the tax code is prejudicial, you know, like in Japan, the taxes on bitcoin we're much higher than the taxes on equity. So any company has a responsibility for advocacy on behalf of its investors, you know, and on behalf of its constituents. We think about what's good for the credit buyers, and we think about what's good for the equity holders. Right, we think about what's good for the world and what's good for the United States, and we

only advocate for things that are good for everybody. Right. The thing is, there are no losers here except the twentieth century antiquated oligopoly that is selling inferior credit instruments. So it's like you just invented the car, and there are a lot of horse and buggy manufacturers that are going to be out of a job, and if you feel sorry for them, no one's getting cars. And we've got the atomic powered, flying faster than light hover car.

And yeah, there's a lot of people selling antiquated, crappy vehicles and no one's going to want to buy them anymore. But that's technology. The human race has got to move forward. So if you're offering digital credit, digital capital, digital equity, it's a better thing, and ultimately you're feeding the four

hundred million companies. Look every for every company that can't sell a crappy credit instrument, their treasurer can buy our credit instrument and get triple or quadruple and maybe that'll save the company. Right. So, yeah, there's technology that's putting you out of business all the time, and then there's a new technology that will make you a fortune and put you in business. If you're a critical, skeptical cur mudgeon, you just focus on the negativity, and you're just a

negative on everything. I hate that, I hate that that's bad, I hate that. I don't want to change. And if you're constructive and shareful. If you're an optimist, you're like, well, I won't be you know, my a trac take collection isn't that valuable anymore. But I do have unlimited free streaming music. Yeah, you know, And I guess you know. I lost a little money invested in whatever record stores,

but I also bought some applestock and made a fortune. Right, And I would say, all these corporate operators, their job is, you know, look at the you know, anticipate the future, look at the past, move forward. Do it in the most graceful, sibyl, responsible, you know, elegant fashion. You can. Right, the world isn't the way it was one hundred years ago. It won't be this way a hundred years from now. That's the human condition. If there were, if there wasn't work to do to move us from the past of

the future, you wouldn't have a job. There'd be no reason to get up in the morning. There'd be nothing to get excited about. Right, you're irrelevant. And I got to tell you. You don't want to wake up one day and think I'm irrelevant. Nobody needs me, no one will care. And the way we did it for the past one hundred years is probably just the way we should do it forever.

So thank you for that. I mean it's made a big difference, but also blazing the trail for what's what we can do with these credit instruments and these treasury companies, not just so other companies like ourselves can fall in the footsteps, but all these pensioners that need it right, And so I'm sort of taking bitcoin to the biggest group of people that need it the most but probably

won't use it, and now they can have it. So I want to say thank you anything that you want to call out attention to for you to shut it down.