Manipulating Markets and Insider Information | Cory Klippsten

That's great to be here. I know we've got a good hit list here to run through and I'm excited to dig again. Yeah. So, um Man, the bitcoin space has been very turbulent and volatile lately. Anyone who's been around bitcoin for any period of time knows that it's big. You know, it's very volatile and turbulent. UM in bowl markets like we like we're kind of in right now. Um seeing drops aren't really abnormal. We're kind of at like a fifty drop. We're kind of recovering from that now.

But it really seems to be driven by um news as we might call it fud as opposed to like more like fundamentals. What are you what are you seeing or thinking about? In regards to that, Yeah, I actually think the uh, basically what happens is when something gets kind of overbought and there's too much leverage to the upside, pretty much anything can kind of start that cascade down and kind of wash the leverage out of the system. So it actually doesn't matter whether it's you know, China mining,

fud or elon tweets or whatever. Almost anything will sort of derail a rally that has gotten a bit overextended with too much leverage and too much polishness. Hey guys, let me just interrupt this interview real quick, just to plug the show sponsor, and that is block Fi. Now. Block five is doing amazing things in the bitcoin finance space.

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back up to forty. Like this feels fine. It feels very much like the pull backs that we had in shape and size and duration. And you know, I'm I'm not worried. And again it doesn't matter. Just zoom out at the end of the day. Like any sat you stack with bitcoin under a million dollars before is cheap. So yeah, you know, we just recommend just just keep buying with some spare change according to your plan whenever you can. And uh, and and just keep on accumulating

and never sell. Yeah. Well, let's dig into a couple of the big pieces that, um we're there, and and really they were kind of one and the same, right, so you kind of briefly mentioned those. So the China

Fund fear, uncertainty and doubt. Um, so the fun about the mining and and uh, it's a pretty pretty ironic for big for China to say that they want to stop mining on dirty energy, especially when they're just announced last year or last year they just brought on three times the amount of coal power plants is anywhere the

rest of the world. Um. But at the same time, I think what probably really kicked that into gear was Elon Musk, who had really come out, um seemingly in favor of bitcoin, and then all of a sudden kind of retract his statement like, oh, bitcoin isn't mined in an efficient manner. It seemed like it was like that one to punch. Did you see that? Yeah, of course I was following it as we went along, and it

seemed to contradict his earlier tweets. So the press release put out by Tesla that he posted an image of was obviously in direct contradiction to his personal tweeting back

in January and February. So I'm not really sure what the machinations were behind the scene, but he has a board, and you know, they're very dependent with their business model on sort of government large s and subsidies in a bunch of different ways, and in particular, like some of these renewable energy credits that they're sort of angling for, and uh, you know, some of their cash flows are sort of ending now in a big way with some of the other companies that have been paying them over

the years now having their own electric vehicle fleets and not having to buy these credits from Tesla anymore. Um, so they're they're sort of at the trough right now, trying to make sure they have their next sort of leg up of subsidies over the next few years. And it seems, you know, it seems just too cute that that tweet came out, the fund tweet came out, and literally the next day was all the news about the uh the new arrangements with the renewable energy credits for Tesla.

So yeah, hard not to see a correlation there. Yeah, I mean, there's just gotta be in anyone who's really studied Elon Musk. I know people love him, um, and you know he's he's quite a character, but um, his career has really been built, as you called it, legress of the government. I mean he's a grifter, right, So, um, all the money that's come from space X and for Tesla has really come from the benefit of the Fiat money system. I'm gonna stop way short of of grift

because that usually is just for personal gain. And I actually think the dude is trying to complete important missions like I do think Tesla's are amazing vehicles and it's kind of pulling that whole industry out of the nineteen fifties and into a new millennium, So I I appreciate what he and that company have done there, and I think what they've done with the commercialization of of you know, space travel and satellite launches and what they're doing with

Starlink with the satellite Internet, like these things are all great and worthy. And you can quibble about the energy mix and the resource use of this, that and the other, and you know clearly those are intensive processes to create those and you're not actually getting away from fossil fuels if you're using electricity unless the source of the electricity is clean too, So it's kind of marketing. So yes,

all of that is true. But you can also I like to be honest because then I have credibility and full and integrity when I, uh, you know, attack somebody for doing something that's bullshit. It's the same reason that I like to, you know, explain how I love the writing of miss him teleb. And just because he doesn't understand Bitcoin doesn't mean that all his work in other areas is worthless. It doesn't mean that he's a charlatan.

It's just like like Ray Dalio had had Bitcoin wrong for years because of his social signals and his you know, unwillingness to do his own research. Over the last year, he's done his own research and he finally is starting to understand bitcoin, and obviously his conclusions are very different. What I would say to that, though, and I agree

with those statements. What I would say is, I think it was Charlie Munger who said, right, show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome kind of a thing. So when you understand what Musk's incentives were, as you said, right, he's very incentivized on the credits, and he's losing the credits because auto manufacturers are coming on now with their own cars and whatnot, and so the incentive structure there

for him to then have to come out. Right, So then we understand the incentives, then we kind of understand the outcome, which is, um, maybe he got a tap on his shoulder from somebody, maybe he just realized it himself. But because he's dependent and whatever you want to call that, but his business is pretty dependent on you know, government help. Um, that's the incentive. And then so you see the Yeah,

these two things can both be true. Yeah, he can want to he can believe truly that he's trying to save the world, and that he doesn't care if he has a few tens of millions of dollars. I think he wants some money or a hundred billion dollars and I truly don't think he actually cares that much. Um. But then he also you know, he whipsaws. You can see it in real time. Like sometimes he just seems like super ego driven and sometimes he seems very altruistic

and you know, people can be more than one thing. Yeah, for sure, it seems uh he has a history of this as well. Right, so he was fined by the SEC twenty million dollars. I believe for um manipulating that they said he was minigal. Was that when he said I'm thinking about taking Tesla private at FO Yeah, So, like you know, he has a history of doing this with his own stock obviously, Dodge, dose coin and bitcoin.

So um, it's hard to be hard to believe that the whole market could move off of what he says. But I want to I want to move. I want

to move past that and a couple of things. First, Um, the energy around bitcoin fund is is is there's so many things that we can talk about that, but it is a little bit ironic when you look at you know, understanding that everything in life has tradeoffs, and so we can choose not to use gas and oil for cars, so we can use batteries, But then what about the mining for the cobalt and the and the lithium and what that's doing right? And so everything has a tradeoff

and I think I think people failed to realize that sometimes. Yeah, I think you're right. And you know, I think this this responsive of Michael Sailor and some of the North American mining companies to you know, have a power out with Elon and kind of explain things and you know that's, uh, that's a pr move and it's debatable whether you want

to move an inch. And I hear this from a lot of friends, and you know the kind of oil and gas industry, and what happens when you sort of create one of these like let's be greener type councils, and it basically sort of starts down a slip free slope and kind of delays progress by decades in many cases. So it can go horribly awry when you create one

of these things. I obviously do have you know, I got to be careful with what I say because I'm an advisor to Riot Blockchain, which is a publicly listed bitcoin miner. But you know, essentially my understanding of what the goals of this thing is is really just to encourage transparency along the lines of what Riot already does.

They already publish exactly what their energy sources, and you know, yeah, they try to improve it over time, and they engage with different stakeholders and respond inquiries from you know, people who want greener energy, etcetera, and you know, just trying to be trying to be good corporate citizens and exists and make money while still not having a target on their back. But you know, it's not going to be some sort of like cabal that's at the whim of

green peace or something. It's gonna be transparency and attempts to do the right thing, whatever that is for them. I'm curious what you think about that. And from a bigger standpoint though, because like now, we've seen like Kevin O'Leary, Mr Wonderful talking about he wants to wait us to mark certain bitcoins as being mind efficiently. We've seen Marathon, another big you know, publicly traded company, specifically saying that that's what they're doing. Um, do you fear that this

could lead to like two classes of coins? Not at all. I mean honestly, like Bitcoin was built to withstand things like this, and the code isn't affected by what miners do. Uh, you can't mind clean blocks without sort of not participating in the network. And you're not going to be on bitcoin anymore. Um in that way, right, you're just gonna

lose money. UM, so you'll be less efficient. I just you know, Mr Wonderful is just obviously like trying to create a profit opportunity for himself and using using his megaphone and some marketing lingo to to try to create an opportunity. Um. What is it with people that are on that show just turning into like ridiculous scammers. And I'm Mark Human in this case has been one of the worst actors that I've seen in business over the

last couple of years. It's just such a joke. Yeah, they I mean, they all want to come in and say, you know, I have a better way to fix it or whatever it is. And so I think it's just funny profit opportunity. But I guess, you know, based off of what he's saying or what marathons trying to do UM. I mean, they really are trying to create like a premium coin that has has no you know, it's not tainted as they would call it or whatever. UM it's seeing.

I made a post about this on Twitter the other day, and I got all these mon narrow heads coming out and attacking me and telling me, well, that's why Monaro is so much better because it's mon arrow is truly fungible. Bitcoin is not fungible because it carries this history with it. Hey, sorry to interrupt this video just one more time. I'm not running Google ads, so it's actually way less interruption than I normally would have on a video. UM. And

that's because it's sponsored by block five. UM. They are opening up the world of bitcoin and financial products, offering to pay you interest on your bitcoin. UM better than own in a rental property that you have to manage and control and have the risks. You can just earn interest on it or you can leverage against it. Now, I plan to hold my bitcoin forever and literally never sell my bitcoin. So how do you do that? Well, if I need money, I don't want to sell that bitcoin.

I'm gonna pay tax on it all right, I'm gonna end up with less and I don't have the bitcoin anymore. So a better way to do it is to borrow against the bitcoin. So I've put all my money into bitcoin. If I want to buy a car, or I want to buy a house, I can borrow against it at very very low competitive rates. Get my house, get my car, whatever that may be, and get to keep the bitcoin. I've done a whole video on this. You can find it.

I'll link it down to the description below, how to retire off a bitcoin without paying taxes, and you can do that with block fight services. I'll link to the video down below. I'm also going to put a link to block fight. If you choose to click on that link to check them out. You can earn up to two dollars in free bitcoin just for using that link. And that's it. Let's go ahead and get back to

the interview. Yeah again, I just don't think it matters, Like, if bitcoin is built to withstand this sort of thing, then we're fine, and I think it is. Yeah, So yeah, I would say that A couple of things that I was thinking about is one, um, it's a little bit too late. There's eighteen and a half million bitcoin in circulation, there's maybe another two or three left. Like, that's not enough to drive even if they were to mind all the bitcoin left, it's not enough to fracture the market,

um right, And it is it is. It is fungible in the sense that once it gets combined and spent and you know, combined with other bitcoins from other sources, and then it goes through eight hops, nine hops, ten hops, Like, no amount of chain analysis is ever going to be able to track like where this stuff comes comes from without also flagging every other transaction on the network. So

it's just a nonstarter. I mean, all of this marketing language that Mara has been putting out, and you know, it's the same kind of stuff that ch Analysis tries to sell the company's you know, it's it's lingo that isn't even going to be relevant in the future. Most of the most transactions are going to happen over lightning in the future anyway, it's completely irrelevant what is marked

on chain. And that's such a great point, and that's the kind of point that I was thinking about with the Monaro people, is that you know, most of these transactions be forward, won't be done on the main chain will be done through lightning net um. And the other thing I was thinking is that you could also obvious skate Bitcoin's history using other other means as well, coin joins, etcetera. UM, and so you could just obviouscate the history that way.

And then they said, well, merchants won't accept coin bitcoin without the history, and it's like, well, then why would they accept mon arrow Like right, it's like kind of the same thing, it is. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, So I think, uh, you know, I hope you're right. I tend to agree with you. I think it's a little bit too late. I don't think they're gonna be

able to change the direction of of bitcoin. It kind of does remind me back to the block size wars that we saw, you know, leading up to UM, where we found out that the miners don't really have that much power over the network, and uh, we'll probably have to kind of revisit that maybe. Yeah, I mean, what's what's funny is, you know, the block size wars were much bigger existential threat. I don't think it actually got to that point obviously, but it was a much bigger

threat to bitcoin than this is this is recycled. This has been around in you know, energy foot around bitcoin and basically just not understanding that energy usage doesn't scale proportionally with transaction volume like number of transactions, and definitely not with the amount of value being moved by those transactions. It's such a simple and silly error that people seem to understand in other domains that you know, it doesn't cost a thousand times more to run the internet because

the Internet is carrying a thousand times more information. That's stupid. The cost of everything that's used to create and run the Internet goes down over time and things get more efficient. It's the same thing with bitcoin. And also you can send a billion dollars of bitcoin for the same amount of power as sending a dollar, you know. So it's just a fundamental misunderstanding. Only simple people that haven't done their research even promote this sort of stuff, and the

truth will win out. And again this was like a number four and number five concern. What gives me optimism about bitcoin is that the worst of the fund is something that's been around for like eight nine years and is just being trotted out again by people with no credibility or who haven't done their research or have the strict incentive because they work at you know, the Bank of Netherlands or something like that, and they're part of creatures of the yacht system and you know, arguing against

it for those reasons or for ideological reasons or something. All right, well, that's good to know. I want to switch gears a little bit now. And UM, I like to say that I believe that UM. You know, real investors always are looking for asymmetric opportunities, right, more upside than downside. UM. And I say that the way to get those asymmetric opportunities is by asymmetric information. You have

to know something that most people don't have. So that's what I'm open to get from you now, Corey, because UM, you have insight into some order books and the movement of big players and things like that. So I want to dig into what's actually kind of not just the news, but what's really going on, UM, before we get the super secret information that I'm gonna make you share with

us here in a second. UM, we did see that maybe maybe the most successful well known investors in the world, definitely the largest hedge fund in the world, Radalio UM, who has been against bitcoin, started to think about bitcoin, started to talk about bitcoin, and now has come out and said that he is a bitcoin holdler. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so I mean, I mean, in retrospect, it was inevitable,

as we often say. Uh And and what's inevitable is if you actually go in with an open mind and and don't have so much ego in the position that you've previously taken that you're unable to change your mind publicly. Then by definition, once you understand bitcoin, if you're honest and don't have some sort of like massive financial incentive to lie, then you'll end up with his position, the one he's growing into. Um to level come around in the end as well, unless his ego gets in the way. Yeah,

you know, they all will. If Munger lived to a hundred and fifty, eventually he'd become a bitcoiner. He may not make it, he may expire before he understands bitcoin, but you know, it's inevitable that anyone who's honest and actually puts in the work will actually understand what's going on here. Yeah. I did a video that just went live yesterday. Well at the time we're recording this anyway, um and I was talking about kind of this this

fud and kind of breaking the lit it down. And I was talking about Charlie or I'm sorry, Warren Buffett and how he came out big time against Amazon seeing it was a joke, it was a dream, it would never work, blah blah blah blah blah for years and years and years and years and years and years for a decade. Finally he takes an eight hundred million dollar position. So I think that kind of gives you an IDM.

And Warren Buffett finally came around. He missed the opportunity because he kept saying it was a joke, it was a dream, would never work. He had a chance to buy it at a dollar or five dollars or ten dollars, but instead he bought it in in a thousand dollars, a hundred million dollars worth. And I think we'll probably see the same thing. But I think it was big for Dahio to come around. Um, his cf CFO from Bridgewater left to go join a bitcoin company. Maybe that was

something to pushed him over the edge. But one thing that he said that I thought was pretty powerful, pretty important that maybe people missed out on, is that I mean he basically said he would rather own bitcoin than bonds. And this is like the bond king guy, you know, his entire career has basically been surfing on a forty year bond market bull run and he knows that's over. Yeah, he's come out last couple of years, he's been saying

cash is trash. Um. There was an article that he wrote a few months ago where I think he said cash is such trash that I would probably borrow against cash and go buy more assets. And now he's come out against the bond market and said he'd rather hold bitcoin.

So I think that's a massive catalyst. Um. I don't know if you guys have talked with with Greg fosse Um, so you know he's a big career bond trader, and uh, he broke down the math of just like how big the bond market is and how even just a small piece of that coming over into bitcoin would just be monumental. Yeah,

that's right. Yeah, it's it's absolutely true. And I think it's really a great point of attack for those of us trying to increase bitcoin adoption, both number of people and monetarily, is to really attack the bond part of people's portfolios. Yeah so um yeah, so man, it's like the noise is temporary distraction. I like to say that um volatility is the difference of perception and reality. So the reality is that bitcoin is the network is growing,

the development is growing. The reality as we have an upward trajection, but the perception gets a little over ahead of it and then it snaps back below and it kind of awesomely it's back and forth over reality. And I think these opportunities, these these bitcoin fud that this news are opportunities where it brings reality below I'm sorry, perception below reality. And that's our opportunity. So maybe you can kind of share with us what you're seeing. I know,

SWAN work some high net worth clients and whatnot. We do I mean across the board, right, you can start with as little as ten dollars a month, but you can also buy you know, tens of millions of dollars through us, And we have customers at both ends and everywhere in between. And I think what's nice about the signal that you can get from what's been going on with Swan in the last month in this this dip let's call it, uh, Most of our customers understand bitcoin

pretty well. Otherwise they wouldn't have been pointed towards us in the first place, because you're kind of finding Swan as you start to go down the rabbit hole and you find out where the signal is and all of the noise, you know, you're not going to find out about Swan on some you know, random crypto crypto t a channel on YouTube. It's like when you find bitcoin authors and bitcoin podcasters and like the smart voices on

bitcoin Twitter, that's when you see people recommending Swan. And so what's really interesting is our two biggest weeks in our company's history were the last two weeks. So the people that actually understand bitcoin have been backing up the truck and buying as much as possible. That's important. That's what we hear, and all our social channels and all of our customer support and just seeing the flow. We've

never been busier. We've hired more people in the last month than any month in company history, and we've had our best month ever m by far. I like that distinction, being you know, a long time investor and studying the stock markets. Um they differentiate and they call them the smart the smart money and the dumb money and smart money or the institutions and things like that. UM. In the in the bitcoin market, it's harder to define that

part because it's anonymous. But um, I think that was a great point that you made, right, Like, the smart money are the ones that are actually producing the content the education, um, and they're the ones that are kind of funneling into your company. So when your company is exploding, it looks like the smart money is the one buying.

If you define smart money as people that actually understand that coin, people who understand that coin are buying like crazy right now, right yeah, and I would I mean, those are the ones that have spent the time to educate themselves and spent the time to understand it better. Yeah, well that's good news. So UM, I guess the I guess the inside edge the asymmetric information from from Corey is that the smart money, the educated people are buying, UM,

they're ignoring the fud and that's probably the trend. Yeah, absolutely, I mean that you know often look to that. You know, what do you understand, what do you know that few people understand, or what do you understand that few people

believe to be true? Or whatever? It is you know, I like, I like to point out that UM, people who understand bitcoin buy a lot more bitcoin then you know, let's say someone who has a cursory understanding of like crypto and maybe a little bit of bitcoin, and they're

trading on different exchanges or apps or whatever. And I think it's really interesting, you know, like I can compare only to sort of public company numbers, but you look at like Voyager up in Canada, which trades a million cryptos and has super high margins, and you know, we make significantly more revenue per user per month, even though our margins are much lower. So we take lower fees and you can only buy bitcoin only one coin and

you can only buy in. Our fees are lower, and we make a lot more money per user than they do. And so there's a lot of noise out there with all this this crypto crapto or whatever. But the signal is in the people that actually understand what's going on here, which you talk about all the time, which is that we're watching in real time the adoption globally of a new monetary asset in a new sort of organizing layer for global society. UM that basically equates to our best

shot at freedom. Yeah, that's my belief. It's the only tool that we really have at this point, and to me, it's that important. So um, with that, I guess would wrap it up. Thanks so much for joining us Daycoin. Anything you want to shout out obviously swan Bitcoin, anything that you're doing, anything where they want to direct people to fall Yeah, no, I mean, I think it would

just be nice for people to know. Since the last time I came on that we really ramped up our private client services division and we have like salespeople and account management. We're really trying to turn into like Bitcoin's customer service team, and we will talk to you on a zoom or on a phone call and go back and forth on email and text message and really explain

bitcoin to you. If you're looking to move a decent chunky your portfolio over into bitcoin, so just go to swan bitcoin dot com, slash private and uh and sign up there. Let them know that Mark Moss sent you, so give him a little somet's on the back end maybe, but you know, I just uh, I think we're really out there educating and we'll take the time to explain bitcoin to you and and help you along this journey

and help you get set up. So that's that's our mission. Cool, and I'm gonna make sure to put the links down in the description down below for anybody who's listening wants to go check that out for more. And with that we'll go ahead and wrap it up. Thanks so much, Corey. Yeah, thanks Mark, thanks for having me on, all right,