In Conversation With Mark Goodwin of Bitcoin Magazine

He's a director of print at the Bitcoin Magazine. He's an author, and man, he's got some late breaking news that just got released this morning that I'm excited to dig into because I haven't I haven't got a chance to go through it yet. Anyway, Mark, thanks for joining me, Mark Man, thanks so much. Yeah, longtime listener, first time caller. Great to be here. Yeah, tons of exciting stuff to

talk about, and yeah, thanks so much for having me. Yeah. Now, I know, you know, you're the director of the print magazine over there at the Bitcoin Magazine, and you've written some articles that I wanted to kind of talk about. But you told me that there's some breaking news that came out this morning about regulations, and so I do

want to dig into that first. I am. You know, I went and made some bold predictions when you know, the whole FTX collacts happened, and it wasn't so bold that the alt coin crowd, the crypto people didn't like it so much. But I basically said that I think the regulations are going to come down pretty hard and heavy. And I said that I don't think there will be

another crypto Bowl run. And I talked about it as a category, like, of course assets will always just pump and dump, but as a category, I don't see that. And the reason why I said that is because I think I think regulations will be coming down hard. And regulations come down hard, then the VC money kind of goes away, and that was kind of my reasoning. And now we're seeing a play out. So what were some of these new regulations. There's been a lot of them,

but were some of these ones that you just saw? Yeah, No, Mark, I think you're completely right about that the crypto bowl thesis, especially with this news. So Yeah, the NYAG came out today in a lawsuit against coucoin and stated that according to them, Ethereum, Luna and ust the Luna stable coin are all considered securities. You know, according to this lawsuit, Um that rule was released literally probably about forty five

minutes ago. So I think you're to your point. I mean, if they if all of those you know, ways to issue a token are considered securities, which you know, I think the howe you know, it's pretty black and white. I think we can all you know, bitcoiners certainly look at this ninety year old law and go, okay, pretty

black and white. If the New York Attorney General is coming out and saying, you know, these three methods of distributing a token, you know, the ethico, uh this this luna you know, pre mine, and then you know, pegging this to a stable coin, all three of these methods are you know, considered securities. That has huge ramifications for the you know, extended uh crypto space, if you will. And I think we're gonna see a very big reckoning

in that in that sense um with this news. So it's a little bit fresh, the markets are still processing it, but huge news absolutely. Now the New York New York has they kind of have their own license called the bit license. It's been around for the longest. Seems like New York has been the harshest kind of regulatory agency to kind of crack down against cryptocurrency. Although they do issue a license maybe Hawaii is still stricter, but let's not dig into that. But New York has this kind

of history of being the harsh system. So a lot of a lot of times exchanges weren't able to operate to New York customers, but they could still operate to the rest. So in the United States, we still have you know, states rights and things like that, and so New York can kind of do that, but then maybe it doesn't apply to the rest of the United States. And so again Blockey, New York residents access to these things.

But what do you think that means? If New York Attorney General would declare something like a theorem, a pre mind I'm sorry, a security, what effect would that have on somebody in California or Texas. I mean, I would just say, it's that's a precedent. I mean, that's it's an incredibly important legal precedent, very influential offense to come

out in state something like that. I think it does have ramifications for the national regulatory regime regardless of states, you know, I think you know, I think again, you know, code is speech, and there's you know, it's not necessarily we should be rooting for government regulation here, but when we're in within this jurisdiction and there's very clear laws, I don't think we should really be surprised that this

stuff is coming. But I do think it will have ramifications nationally, and I think the US, you know, banking system and the US economy is so important globally that it will obviously have huge ramifications on the global economy as well. Yeah, yeah, I do want to just kind

of reiterate what you just said there. And you know, while I have said I think that regulations will stop this, and I don't think there will be another crypto ball run because of that, I am certainly not calling for regulations. As a matter of fact, I'm openly saying that I think the SEC should just be shut down. I think they should shut down a disgrace. I think Gary Gensler should be fired in disgrace. Their job is to protect consumers. They've obviously failed at that job, and I don't believe

consumers need to be protected. I think if I can buy a gambling a lottery ticket, or I can go gamble in Vegas, I supple to buy whatever I want. So I think they shut down. However, they're not. They're here and so we have to kind of navigate the world not as we want it to be, but as it is. And so it's here, and so I do just want to state that a lot of people got mad at me. I'm some status, you know, and I want this to happen. It's like, no, I'm not a status.

I don't want to happen. But but but it's here, right, I'm sure you've exactly heard that. You've heard that as well, But I think to your point, like it sets a precedent, so like law sort of builds on top of itself and they want to cite other case laws. So I think to your point, it can certainly do that. What about I want to dig into the et ethereum one a little bit, but what about on the I don't know if you're following, and if you're not, that's fine.

But obviously the big, big, big case, it seems like, is the XRP ripple case. And I saw I didn't get a dig into it, and if you did, no worries. But uh, something about some you know, preliminary judgment and they're saying maybe they might say some of the pre mind might have been but you know, maybe not I don't know have you have you looked at that at all? I mean a little bit. I I definitely agree. I think it's like, you know, that case will really be

the landmark case. I think that sort of sets um, you know, really you know, the regulatory clarity. Um. So I agree, it's definitely a case to watch. I haven't actually looked at. It's really hard to tell because the ripple marketing you know machine has has has a way of turning any you know, legal you know, legal output into into something very bullish and very distorted and hard to tell what's going on there. Um, So it's a little bit hard to follow. Um. But no, I haven't.

I haven't dug in too much recently. But um, I think we're supposed to hear somewhat soon. Um. And I think whenever that drops, these could be a very related you know shoes about the fall mark. You know, I think the New York AG thing is very big and obviously, whenever we get clarity on the on the Ripple case, um, you know, I think the US regulatory regime will have

will have made itself you know, very well well known. Yeah, I mean you have to think, I mean New York is probably the most influential state, at least in regards to financial situations, and so to your point, it carries a lot of weight. Um. The ramifications of Ethereum being labeled a security, I mean, think about that, right. So to your point, there's a for the listeners. There's one hundred year old Howie test which was developed for put

together for citrus grove. So I don't know how citrus trees kind of compared to this, but it's not so bad actually. I mean, if you look at the four ways, given money as an investment hoping for a return to a common enterprise UM, a common enterprise that has control over how good the investment does things like that, UM have expectation of profit. I think that's the way, Yeah, an expectation of profit. What I know what they're doing.

I had an SEC attorney on Security's attorney on a few months ago and he said, actually, what what Ripple's trying to do is they're trying to get these consumers to come in and say, we didn't buy it for an investment and if you and if you regulate it, you're going to cause us irreparable harm. And so anyway they're trying to kind of build that case. We didn't buy it for an investment, like, yeah, right, what would you buy it for it? Because you can't do anything

with it, you know. But I want to talk about We'll talk about a theory, but let's talk about the broader implications of these companies trying to actually go along with securities regulations. If they're able to do that. I think that's kind of interesting conversation. And then, of course we're bitcoin people. We want to talk about bitcoin. I like to think that the price is the least kind of interesting piece, and I like to look at the

development happening on it. And so I know you just recently wrote a paper talking about the development on bitcoin. I want to talk about that, and then and then we'll jump into some bigger stuff about money and stuff like that. If you're just tuning in you're listening to the Mark mos Show. We're talking about, of course, the decentralized revolution. We're talking about bitcoin and the cryptocurrency market overall. I'm joined by a special guest, Mark Goodwin. He is

the director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine. He's an author. You can find him at Bitcoin magazine dot com. Just go to the author section and check out Mark Goodwin. So we're gonna be back talking about securities, regulations, the development on the bitcoin blockchain, and money from a bigger perspective. We'll be back with that and more in a minute. Don't go away, We'll be right back. All right, Welcome back. If you just tune in, you are listening to the

Mark Mass Show. I'm joined by Mark Goodwin. He's the

director of print editorial Bitcoin magazine. And Mark, we are talking about, you know, this news from the New York ag coming out with etherem being a security one thing that I had talked about and I'm just curious your take on this that you know, I think it was actually Jack Mollers who called this like regulatory arbitrage, right, like you're trying to avoid these regulatory sanctions and they're kind of playing in that middle, and they're able to

kind of make that difference because if they had to file a security that's a long process. It's a very expensive process. But most importantly the problem that I see, of course, these companies have a lot of money because they did the pre mind but if they had to do full disclosures, Vitallic would have to say how many Ethereum he got, and how much Joseph Lubin has and what the Ethereum Foundation has and what their involvement is and how much they control. I mean, like could they

even do that? And even if they even if they could and they did, what would people think? Yeah, I mean I highly doubt we'll ever ever ever see that, but uh yeah, I mean that is sort of you know, that's how you if you want to deal in the US, jurisdiction got to play ball and uh you know the

Howie test is yeah, ninety years old. Um, and so uh you know these folks, I think, you know, the US regulatory regime you know, is not doing anything to make to make the water warm to come into the US right now and try to uh you know make money, right. I mean, there's they're threatening raising capital gains tax from twenty percent to forty percent, you know, huge billionaire tax

is coming. All of this this big talk about you know, how they're going to try to service this debt um and so what that's really going to do is just further offshore you know, uh, you know investment capital in the United States. Uh. So I think we will see jurisdictional arbitrage. I mean, we've definitely already seen it. I think the lack of clarity over the last you know, handful of years has driven a lot of these banks to you know, to Bahamian Bermuda banks, you know, driven

them off shore, driven them to Asia. I think we'll continue to see that. That said, I think when we do get some regulatory clarity, which it looks like we are getting, whether or not it's what the industry at large wants to see. Getting that clarity, I think will you know, be attractive to businesses if they have very clear you know, filing disclosure, all those practices are very clear. I think they will come back. So it would be

very interesting. Now Gary Gensler, the head of the SEC, in the previous head of the SEC, J Clayton, we're both very clear to say that bitcoin is a commodity, and Gary Gensler has kind of come out again saying bitcoin is a commodity. It's the only one I'm gonna say pretty much. They are all those security so they've kind of said that. So bitcoin is a is a commodity. It's it doesn't have a central issue. Everybody has the same opportunity to go get it. It's all fungible and

those are kind of the main thing. So if you just stick with bitcoin, you don't have to worry about all that regulatory stuff. So, UM, it's a good point. Now. I just got back. I was in Jackson Hole, Wyoming at the Bitcoin ski Week. Amanda Calvary put together about two hundred bitcoinners came together and it was amazing. UM. Got to spend a couple of days on the mountain as well, and it was really cool to talk about

a lot of the development that's happening on bitcoin. And I know you just recently wrote a paper, UM talking about that, talking about these ordinals. Now, at first glance, or maybe the initial buzz was that, oh NFTs on bitcoin. UM, give us, give us kind of a high level on on these ordinals. What you're thinking about that? Yeah, totally. UM. Well it's a really interesting project. UM. It's definitely super controversial,

which I totally understand why. UM. But more or less it breaks down into, you know, kind of two parts. It's created by another Bay Area bitcoiner out here, Casey

wrote a more there's kind of two parts to the project. UM. The sort of this idea of ordinal theory of sort of like uh, you know, looking at satoshi's on an individual issuance level, like a serial number, um, arbitrarily uh and you know, you know, imbuing value to it based on a sentimental reason of some reaction to the number or you know when it was found, when that block

was mined, you know, when this setoshi was issued. So that's kind of part of it is this this sort of arbitrary index of looking at how setoshi's are issued and then distributed within a transaction. So it's just kind of an interesting way to look at the at the network. And then the second part of it, which I think is kind of more of the controversial part, is the inscriptions. So it's this new tooling that takes advantage of the

witness data. With the block sized increase in twenty seventeen was segment and then tap root came out a couple of years ago and increased some standardness bounds, so basically allowed you know, this tooling to exist where you can inscribe arbitrary data into a Bitcoin transaction. That data is stored in the witness data, not in the actual transaction action data. UM and uh, yeah, it allows people to create basically immutable data, um, if they want to pay

for it, if they want to pay the fee. So yes, some people are using it to put monkey JPEGs on the chain, which is you know, it's either a valid transaction or an invalid transaction. That's bitcoin, right, UM, not the use case I would necessarily use it for. Right. But then you are seeing people storing you know, bannable files. We have STL files, three D printing files. We got the Yankee Google out in there. We're seeing text, bannable texts.

The Bible was inscribed to King James version, the whole. There's a lot of interesting use cases in that arbitrary data beyond the traditional kind of NFT wash trading stuff we've seen from kind of the the ethereum ecosystem. So they can put the whole Bible on there, oh yeah, wow, a lot of I think they split it up into I think five parts. But yeah, you know you could store up to four megabytes, um, you know, up to the full block size. UM. So you can fit a

lot of text in four megabytes. Yeah, I mean that's incredible. I you know, at first it was like the j the jpeg thing, right, and which which never made sense to me in the first place, because it doesn't make sense to take a physical object and then try to match it to something digital. You know. Um, of course it just doesn't make sense to me. But there is information, digital information that is very valuable that does need to

be protected. Um. It makes me think of that movie Fahrenheit I think four fifty one, right where they went around and burned all the books, yeah, which which sounds actually very similar to where we're at, where the whole world had the civil war, and so to prevent the war from a civil war from ever happening again, they got rid of all the information. There was just one arbitrare of truth and everyone just believed the same thing.

There would be no war, which sounds sort of like where we're going, and so we can see it sounds like where we are, my friend, I think we've been there for a bit, where we're burning books and banning platforms and deep platforming everybody left and right. Um, so I do think there's an absolute need for immutable truth. Uh. And you know, bitcoin is a database, you know, we love it as this economic force, and of course it is that, and that will always be its main you know,

it's main principle. It's a main it's main function, but it is a database. And uh, you know, if someone wants to pay uh, and they think imbuing this data and everybody's notes for eternity, um, you know is worth is worth the fee then uh, you know, that's their right to do it. And you know, I think we'll see some interesting use cases. I think it's been there's been a lack of creativity at the immediate We sort of there was a big just copying of this culture

that existed before. Um. I'm excited to see new culture arise from it. Um. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, I want to dig into some of some of this. I have a couple questions here. But if you're just tuning in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show. Of course, we're talking about each and every week the decentralized revolution,

and I am joined by Mark Goodwin. He's the director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine, and we are talking about this new development on the bitcoin blockchain that's not just money, it's a database. As he said, we're gonna talking about the good, the bad, and where this goes and the bigger topic of money. So we'll be back with all that and more in a minute. You don't want to go in away. This is going to be an important conversation. We'll be right back. All right, Welcome back.

If you're just tuning in, you are listening to the Mark Moss Show. We're talking about bitcoin. We're talking about the development on bitcoin, and I'm joined by Mark Goodwin, the director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine. And you know, one thing I was thinking of when you were talking and when I first saw the ordinals Mark, was that my first thought. I kind of had this like knee jerk reaction, which is, like, why don't we just leave

bitcoin alone? You see what happened? You put the tap root in and then the law of unintended consequences kicks in and now we have this thing going on. And that was kind of my knee jerk reaction to it. It, um, you know, and then I'm starting to think, well, I guess let's just see how the the free market, you know, works itself out. What were your thoughts or where are you at with it? You know? And yeah, I think I think I'm with you, Um, you know, uh, I

obviously I'm you know, I'm a believer in censorship resistant money. UM. I'm also a believer in the consensus and rules of bitcoin. That's why I'm a bitcoiner. Uh. None of those things have been violated UM by this new tooling UM. But I agree with you. I think there has been a really big knee dric reaction to it. UM, you know, because this ultimately isn't the main you know, purpose of

bitcoin UM. But I think the the you know, the free market, or maybe more more specifically, the fee market UM is ultimately going to uh you know sort of you know, be the curator of of what comes next. UM. And And just when you look at it from an economic standpoint, this idea of you know, it's like anyone could always have spammed the blockchain forever and bought up every block, and you know, of course someone wants to waste all their bitcoin doing that. You know, of course,

go for it. Sure that block space was always available to be purchased. But when you're doing inscriptions, UH, you know, you want to buy a full block, you want to you want to inscribe a substantial amount of data, you know, above like three megabytes or something, UM, that gets incredibly expensive. And when there's a dynamic fee market. You know, a ten x and fees when you're paying fifty cents for

a transaction, is you know, that's not that's okay. You know you can kind of handle that when you're paying thousands of dollars to buy a whole block. You know, a ten x increase, one hundred x increase and a dynamic fee uh you know sat per v byte UM that becomes incredibly you know, it just doesn't scale at all. Um. There's no economic reason incentive to do that. Um. And so this fear I think of, you know, bloating or spamming the blockchain, I think just really doesn't economically play out.

So but you know, we'll see, we'll see how it goes. The men pool has been insane lately. You know, we've gotten almost like half a gig up there today, so we're seeing a lot of transactions, like fifty thousand transactions in the men pool. So, you know, we'll see how it all plays out. But I think in the long

term it's very unsustainable. Yeah. Now, one thing I like to think about in terms of Bitcoin I talk about all the time is is a technological revolution are different than technologies the technology like an iPhone, you took a phone and computer, you put them together. Cool technological revolutions change the course of humanity. So we had five right Industrial revolution, steam engines and the railways, electricity and steel, oil, automobiles,

and then the microprocessor. And what I think about when I think about those, I think about each one of those gave us new sets of building blocks that allowed us to build new things that we had no idea because we had no idea because we didn't have the building blocks. So like steel, for example, or let's say, like electricity, there's a first killer application. So the light

bulb was the first killer application of electricity. So it was designed, it was invented, it was created to give us electricity, but of course it became used for way more than that. And so like steel was so we can get a higher we could build a higher building, right or a bridge. We didn't know we'd have space shuttle one day. And so when I think about bitcoin, like obviously Satoshi Nakamoto in the Bitcoin white Paper said that it's a peer to peer electronic cash, and that's

what it was designed for. But it's a new set of building blocks that allows us to build all types of new things that maybe aren't what the original creator intended them for, right, And so we have this censorship resistant database, you know if you call it that, a time chains as he called it. And what can we do with that? Well, certainly money is the killer application, but like what Jack Dorsey's kind of Web five, we're like hashing a decentralized identifier I D into it. Well,

that's that's interesting. We didn't think about that now, like an ordinal subscription, which to your point of NFT seems kind of silly, but certainly throughout history putting a Bible in there could have been very beneficial. Or three D printed guns would be very powerful in a country where you need it. So do you kind of look at it like that? Like maybe it grows out of you know, money being the first killer application, but now it's like building block we can build all these new things on.

I mean one hundred percent, yeah, absolutely, I mean it's the Internet of money. It is a database, it is an economic you know, unbelievable force, and that is it's sort of you know again major principle layer one. But yeah, I mean there's so many applications you can build when you have a you know, a database system that economically incentivizes you to retain the immutability of the chain and

propagate it to everybody and propagate transactions. You know, there's an economic incentive of storing those gigabytes on your node, and I think you know, there's an that's an interesting angle to the ordinal story is that it's sort of a psy op to get all of these coiners to run full nodes right here they are. They have economic incentive to never prune the witness data because that's where all their precious JPEGs are. So you know, we've seen thousands of nodes spin up in the last six weeks

because of tooling. Yeah, we're seeing a huge increase in node count. And again, all of these people are economically incentivized to store that data forever. So it's an interesting wrinkle. And you know, bitcoin teaches us so much, we're all sort of I like to look at it as a database, of course, but also, you know a game. You know,

it's this big economic game playing out everywhere. Nation states are playing, central banks are playing an individuals, sovereign individuals alike or playing and it really it's these rules are just as much playing us as we're playing them. And I think this is just another interesting wrinkle where the

protocol has evolved via tooling UM. And now we have a whole different set of users that are upholding this system that we all want to see the world uphold for you know, sound economic reasons, and they're doing it for a completely different reason, um, but they're achieving the same goal of you know, network security. UM. So yeah, bitcoin is a is a living thing, uh, and it's really not about us, and it's use case will always

be determined by the market. And right now there's a market for that stuff, um, and an economic incentive to you know, do do what's best for the network. So also I also think about you know being you know, the first killer at being money. But then what is money? Right? Robert Breedlove as a podcast all he does talk about

what is money? Right, Like what is money? And everyone thinks they understand, Oh, you know, I got my wallet right here, I got a dollar bill in there, I got money in my bank, and we think we know what money is. But really what is money is a very deep and profound question to ask. And if you were to say, well, money is just communication, money communicates value, right, well, then so would the Bible or three D printed gun

schematics be value as well. So if all money does, right, if you boil it down, like if you think about it, well, instead of having a dollar bill, I have a sat or you know, a fraction of a bitcoin and I transfer that to make payment. But if you think about it from a bigger angle where money is actually just communication and there's all different types. And if you think about that, like think about how even communication has changed.

I would imagine if you went back to the eighties, Well, information, you know, I mean, I guess there's books, you know, I have the library. I can go to the library and I get there's you know, three nightly news channels and two morning new paper newspapers. That's information Today. A kid on a beach and VG can post a picture and I get all that information of what the weather's like, what the waves are like. Right, And so even what we know is information change. So I think what we

think of communication and value is going to change. And so it's fun to think about. Although humans are no good at imagine in the future, because all we can think about is better versions of what we have today. Without those building blocks, we don't know where those things will go. I want to get into a little bit of a bigger conversation. We'll get into the dollar itself and what we consider money as today. Anyway, if you're

just tuning in, you're listening to the Mark Moshow. Of course, we talk about the decentralized revolution, talking about how the world is changing mostly through the lens of politics, finance, and technology, and the technology is bitcoin. I'm joined by Mark Goodwin, director of print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine, and we are going to come back and we'll talk from a higher level. We'll talk about the bitcoin and the dollar and what the future holds with that. So it's

gonna be a fun conversation. You don't want to miss it. We'll be back with that and more in a minute. Don't go away, We'll be right back. All right, Welcome back. If you just tune in, you are listening to the Mark Moss Show talking about bitcoin with Mark Goodwin. He is the director of print editorial Bitcoin magazine. You should definitely check it out Bitcoin magazine dot com and uh man, We've covered a lot. If you've missed any of it, I'm not gonna go back and repeat it, but you

can catch it on the podcast. Just search the Mark Mos show on the podcast or go to the Market Disruptors YouTube channel and you can watch it on demand

over there. Um, you know, Mark, I know, you wrote another article albeit a while ago, talking about, um, you know, a bitcoin dollar as you called it, and you were referencing it kind of in reference to the Petro dollar, where the dollar has been backed by you know, by Saudi Arabia and the petro or the oil that they have, they're basically pricing everything in dollars, and I think you were kind of comparing that to like this bitcoin dollar. Why don't you frame that up for a little bit. Yeah, no,

I think you did a great job. Yeah, it's it's kind of an allegory to the petro dollars. So this idea that you know, the US, in order to fight inflationary effects of an increased monetary supply from the Nixon Shock at seventy one going off the gold standard, they you know, did a whole bunch of military imperialism in the Middle East and established an economic monopoly on petrol and oil and basically created a a you know, a furnace to shove all of this you know, dollar demand.

Because all of these industrial nations in Asia and Europe, you know, needed needed oil, so they were able to

sort of offshore their debt and inflationary effects. M. And so the argument now, this kind of this thesis, and I've expanded it actually into a book that's coming out called the Bitcoin Dollar, sort of this idea that the US government is actually incentivized due to this runaway debt service you know, inflation that's happening, UM to find a demand elastic commodity and energy commodity uh to to peg

itself too. And so we're seeing right now sort of a recreation of that mechanism of on ramps and off ramps to bitcoin being predominantly US dollar denominated, huge USD pairings, you know, huge volume on these USD pairings for bitcoin UM. You know, strong majority of of of volume is coming from you know KYC, you know dollar account inputs. UM. So that's sort of the argument that, you know, there's an economic incentive for you know, the US to tether

themselves uh to uh to bitcoin UM. And I think what we're seeing now with this regulatory regime and this post FTX sort of stable coin war, UM. You know, we're seeing the kingmakers being made. Um, we're seeing the regulatory regime sort of choosing who gets to be the issuers of these, you know, the oncoming billions and billions, if not trillions of stable coins that will be issued when you know, private banks start buying US treasuries and

start issuing stable coins. So I really think the dollar and bitcoin are going to be the huge players, certainly, you know, for the rest of the year and probably for the rest of the decade, and possibly even even a little bit more than that. Um, So I'm really focusing on the dollar, learning a lot about it, and yeah, I think bitcoin and the dollar are just very strange bedfellows. And uh yeah, there's a lot, a lot to dig

into there for sure. Yeah, it's interesting. I covered earlier the story that you know, everybody kind of in the bitcoin community is kind of freaking out because the US you know, is potentially looks like they're about to go

dump a bunch of bitcoin into the market. They trend they had a billion dollars worth of bitcoin that they transferred over to uh coin base coin base wallets and some of the government wallets as well, and so investors are thinking that they're probably gonna go dump that, which historically they haven't done that. They've sold it off in auctions and no smart seller whatever go just dump that into the market anyway, unless they potentially wanted to come down.

So it's probably not the case. But then I was looking up some of the but you know, we don't know for sure, but some of the government other government's holdings of bitcoin, and the US government has quite a bit of bitcoin on the books, but some nations like China look like they have like two hundred thousand bitcoin on their books, and it's sort of like kind of like, uh, well, Jason Laurie has been talking about, you know, the strategic

interests of a nation to acquire bitcoin. I think he's talking about it more from a mining standpoint, but that's more of a on its books. I saw Bitcoin Magazine had Bitcoin Magazine on Twitter had put out something about the by dead Men proposing a thirty percent tax on electricity used for bitcoin mining. So I don't know which way they want to go here. It's like, on one hand, it would make sense to have it control it even you know, maybe if there's a small chance it takes off,

maybe we should kind of have it. But I mean if they put a thirty percent tax on it, I mean, it's just going to go overseas again somewhere, right. I mean that's the economic interest, right or it or it allows you know them to create uh, you know, loopholes for you know, the companies and personnel and DC interest. You know. Again, this is the US dollar system is all about retaining purchasing economy and making as much money

for the contillionaires as possible. I mean, that's we've seen this time and time again anytime there's debt issues or inflation issues up up pops of war, uprises, taxes, uh, you know, And here we are, and we're at actually sort of an economic breaking point where now are just the interest on our debt service in a year is now actually over our military spending. So we're actually spending more money to pay for our dollar than we are to pay for the military. That's you know, holding up

the dollar theoretically. So we're in sort of uncharted territories. We're a road runner that's run off the cliff. So yeah, we'll see who gets made king and who gets to sort of run the retail CBDC. I guess, yeah, I hadn't really thought about it like that. I mean, and obviously I should have, but I mean to your point, right, it's king making you said that earlier, picking and choosing winners. So everybody has to pay a thirty percent tax except

for you guys over here. You don't have to or we don't have to sort of a thing, so that that could be interesting, you know. But to the point that you made too about running kind of the government off the cliff, it's like the FED is trying to well, not trying to do. They have raised rates higher and faster than in time in history, trying to crush inflation. But they haven't been able to crush inflation, but they have managed to crush the government, and the government's broke.

And of the thirty one and a half tillion dollars of debt, thirty percent of that has to be refinanced in the next year at the new rates. Fifty percent of it has to be refinanced in the next three years at the new rate, and so that's going to push the interest payments up. You know, who knows in the in the it's right now an average of one

point seven percent that would put it. You know, it's different different rates at different maturities, but it pushes it between a three and a half to a five and a half percent number, which could potentially take us from about a nine hundred trillion dollars I'm sorry, nine hundred billion dollars of interest expense to one point eight trillion yep an interest expense. And that's a big problem, yep. I mean, you know, we're bitcoiners, you know, compounding annual

growth rate, you know, a little kgar. You don't want that running running wild and your debt, you know, so, and that's exactly what's happening. So yeah, to your point, I mean, you know we're gonna have to deal with that mathematical reality. Um, I don't know when that will happen, but obviously we will need to create money to pay that debt. There's no way we can make enough off tax receipts. Even with the insanity of the capital gains threats that they're saying in the last couple of days,

they won't even come close. So printing will have to come at some point. You know, we'll see what happens till we get there, but it's going to be a hell of a red Yeah. Well, and the other problem is that the expense column is going up, right, the interest on the DAD is going up. The spending is also going up, but the tax receipts are going down.

So to your point, they want to put in all these new tax things because the tax treets are going down because the FED is crushing demand by making everybody poor, and then everyone's poor, so then there's no taxes and then the tax So in California corporate tax shereets are down twenty percent. Statewide is down forty percent. In the

US it's down nine percent. That's a big drop. And then I saw this chart last week I was looking at and it showed no matter what the tax rate is, the government typically gets the taxes to come out to about nineteen percent of GDP. So tax rates up, tax rates down, the share is about the same. So the goal should try to be to get the GDP bigger, not just the taxhare bigger. But it's going to be

interesting to see how that plays out. If you're just tune in, you're listening to the Mark Moss Show, of course each and every week, talking about the decentralized Revolution. I've been talking to Mark Goodwin, he's the director of Print editorial at Bitcoin Magazine. Definitely check that out Bitcoin magazine dot com. Give him a follow on Twitter at Mark Goodwin Underscore I n of course I'm at one, Mark Moss. That's what we got for today. Hopefully enjoyed

it shoot as much. Let me know thanks for listening.