Bitcoin, Privacy and Human rights With Alex Gladstein

this started. Bitcoin is many things too many people. One reason why it's so hard to understand is because there's so many different things that you have to understand to really get it. There's a lot of things that excite me and other people about bitcoin, including making money, of course, which attracts the most people, the ability to have a new money outside of the fed UM, the ability to take away trust from major institutions, and so many other things.

But one of the unintended consequences of bitcoin that I really am excited about is it's got people to start paying attention. It's got people to pay attention and learn. It's got people interested in things economics, Austrian economics, freedom, human violations and things like that. And it's it's it's

opened up people's minds. It's it's increased their enthusiasm to learn, their curiosity um and you know, one of the things that I've really put a lot of attention into over the last couple of years, as I've gone further and further into the bitcoin rabbit hole, is um the oppression that that's happening around the world, the human rights violations. We're seeing it pop up more than ever right now.

You know, there's half a dozen countries with one to two million people marching and protesting, and it's only getting worse. And today I am sitting down with Alex Gladstein, he's the chief strategy officer at the Human Rights Foundation, and we get into talking um a little bit of the talk that he gave about how bitcoin is going against helping us fight back against Big Brother and the financial rights and how they're human rights and so a really

interesting conversation. We dive into into those topics um different countries around the world, what they're facing. We talk about something he likes to call privacy capitalism, which is a really interesting topic and UH, anyway, it was a great conversation. If you want to know more about bitcoin, uh, financial privacy, privacy, financial sovereignty, and how we can fight back against Big Brother, then UH definitely recommend you listen to let's jump right in. Hello,

and welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today, I'm joined by Alex Gladstein. He is the chief Strategy Officer at the Human Rights Foundation as well as faculty at the Singularity University. He's been doing a lot of work in human rights and specifically technology, bitcoin, et cetera that can free us, and so I've been looking forward to this conversation. Alex, Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me on. Yeah, so, uh, yeah, you know,

we've had a couple of conversations. I've seen some of your videos that you're doing. I love the work that you're doing in the in the space that you're doing, and I think it's super important for the revolution that we're kind of seeing. But for those that don't know what you've been doing, want you give us a little

background on yourself and what you're doing. Sure, So, since two thousand seven, I've been working for a nonprofit called the Human Rights Foundation, which focuses on promoting civil liberties

and human rights for people who live under authoritarian regimes. So, by our account, that's about uh ninety three countries, four billion people who live under a government that's either a one party state or a kingdom or a dictatorship of some kind where there's no real separation of powers, or free and fair elections, or free expression or ability to really hold your government accountable or even write an opted in a newspaper. These are places where independent media is

either persecuted or non existent. UM. This ranges from the the extremely oppressive like North Korea or Eritrea, all the way through countries like China, Vietnam, Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately, it really runs the gamut. So we specialize in helping people who live under these very difficult political environments. And

technology has always been a huge part of this. Whether it's by when I first started sending in DVDs to the Cuban Underground Library movement so that Cubans could access stories and narratives that were forbidden, to our work with North Korea, where we've smuggled in tens of thousands of flash drives and USB sticks and SD cards packed with

movies and films about the outside world. UM to work with people who are doing everything from uh mesh networks to encrypted communications to you know, using satellites, even to expose human rights violations. So technology has always been an interesting tool for good. But then of course we're also seeing how uh you know, governments like China are using technology to perfect social engineering, and other governments are using technology to shut off the Internet and keep their people isolated.

So it's kind of a two sides of the narrative. But I very much believe in technologies that are empowering and decentralizing as as pretty essential to the to the future of human rights. Now, when you talk about human rights, uh as a whole, categorically, I guess, first of all, you talk about ninety three countries, four billion people. I guess even the freest country, America, the Land of the Free,

is still maybe you know, not totally free. So I guess it's like a sliding scale, right, there's no black and white. There's like Norway. It's like Norway to North Korea. Right, so you've got Norway where like it's pretty much the most open and arguably free country by most metrics, um, all the way down to North Korea, which is the least open and free. So that, yeah, there's no black and white, but but there is actually um something called a town square test that the Soviet discident and the

Tom Sharansky invented where you know, think about it. Can you go to the center of your town or or city or village or wherever you live and and and criticize the government openly? And you know, for about ninety three countries you can't do that, Like, you can't do that without risk of getting fired or um, you know,

without risk of getting kidnapped, killed, etcetera. Here in America, while I agree that we have many problems, like people make a living off making fun of the president, they make actually quite a healthy living doing so on many different networks. So you know, we have a really vibrant tradition of free expression here which is really really important.

And this this is the same in many other countries around the world, um to different extents, but generally speaking, you do need to apply some sort of political science rigor to this and actually differentiate. I mean, the sort of people on the internet who compare America to North

Korea are are wrong, I believe, um. And there is a real difference in terms of how the American government is essentially built by the people in many ways, where we can hold our government accountable and the people who make all the decisions rotate through based on voting um. And we have free expression, and we have like close to a hundred thousand nonprofits, and we have the A C l U and the e f F, and we can sue our government, and you know, there's like a

lot of investigating journalism. This is like super super different from like Belarus or Gabon, where like they don't have any of that. So again, I think it's really important to draw that distinction. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, definitely. I guess I was just saying it's it's it's like the sliding scale. There's no black and white defining like line that that separates well you know that you know there is, but

there isn't but there is maybe. I mean, if you look at the Korean Peninsula, there's a very clear demarcation. It's very clear line that you can look at from at nighttime satellite image which shows literally the difference between freedom and dictatorship. On one side, you have a free country that has a democracy and incredible economic innovation where they make all the stuff in your pockets and on the roads, etcetera. And on the other side you just

have darkness. So I mean, there are some more of these lines around the world. I mean, you could argue Belarus and Estonia, right and and and there are a few others, but you know, arguably, um, it can be, it can be. It can be pretty stark. Yeah, I've seen the satellite images of that act what you're talking about, and it is it is pretty pretty amazing to see it.

It amazes me when you look back through time and you look at you know, from the time we were kind of owned as by kings or whatnot, you know, in dictatorships and not in all the way today. How with the age of information that we have, it just seems strange that even today you could be owned by a country, right like you you don't have the freedom

to do what you want or move move as you want. Um. And uh, a lot of that, I guess a lot of that then is the countries want that they just want to control and that's why they're trying to utilize this technology. Yeah, I mean, look, it's evolutionary path. Governments have always wanted to have more control over their people, whether in the name of national security, stability, prosperity, you

name it. Um, it's always been a game of uh, you know, you know, we need, we need to have more power and control to protect you write with dating back all the way um to to early societies, right, so today it's just it's done with a different kind of clothing. Let's put it that way. Um. But even as you're saying, even in advanced democracies, we have serious concerns over you know, you know, is encryption going to be legal? You know, can we have private communications? Um?

And you've got even governments is advanced democratically is England in Australia trying to outlaw encryption. So this is a struggle that's UM. Struggle for freedom is something that that's

that's present everywhere. UM. But you know, over hundreds and thousands of years, like there has been a pretty amazing progress made whereby um, compared to a thousand years ago when everybody lives under dictatorship, you know, today you can you can clearly say like approximately half the world approximately you know, you know, three and a half or so billion people live under a government that they can sort of collectively control, right And that's that's a big difference. UM.

So that's kind of inspiring. So that kind of keeps us moving forward. So these big decentralizing progressive trends like um, like like democracy versus dictatorship, or like the open Internet versus uh, you know what we used to have, which was like state and elite control of information. These are like really really positive trends and and they're pretty undeniable. And that third one that we want to talk about

is his money, right, So it is bitcoin. So you know, bitcoin is like the culmination of many different kinds of technologies and methods and mechanisms, but essentially it's given us a way to separate money from state and really decentralized the means of production of money and access to money in a way where anyone can have permission in permissionless

access to this sort of really intriguing asset. So I would like to think of like the political science backdrop that we just kind of covered, and like how mankind has made progress in areas of like decentralized political power or what we would call probably democracy, and also in other areas where we've made progress in terms of like you know, having the average person have access to almost all the information in the world's pretty amazing in the

form of a smartphone. Um. And then and then we're just on the cusp of this third one, which is like having everyone having access essentially um to bitcoin, which is something we've never seen before. Yeah. Yeah, and that's what I wanted to jump in and talk about. A recent talk that you gave which I watched, was Bitcoin versus Big Brother, and um, you know, we're looking at bitcoin as a technology and how they say, how it

fixes this? Right? It fixes everything? And I had mentioned before we started recording, UM, how I see this race of technology where technology working to enslave us versus technology that could potentially free us. Um, you kind of talked about privacy capitalism and whatnot, and where does bitcoin fit into that technology to free us versus the technology to

slave us? Yeah? Yeah, I was. I was pointing out a interesting idea to play with, which is, of course, we've heard of big brother, which is like, you know, technologically enabled government that can have omission surveillance, right, and then we've heard of surveillance capitalism, which is this uh swiftly growing industry of companies that want to know as much about you as possible so that they can make more money. So why not privacy capitalism? Right? So you

know what could we see? Have we already seen the beginning of and will we see more of this idea of like companies who's who's like product or service is to help people protect themselves. So you've already seen a lot of this with regard to like encrypted messaging, Like the folks who created a signal obviously did well, you know,

selling selling their tech two you know, different companies. Um, you've already seen this of course with like you know obviously bitcoin and bitcoin related technologies and companies regard people who want control and privacy over over their financial transactions, you have like a v VPN companies maybe for example, Yeah, I mean, look, tunnel Bear was sold for four million

dollars to McAfee. So I mean I just think, like if we just fast forward ten twenty years, like, especially more wealthy people, I think they're gonna want privacy like right,

So historically that's why Swiss banks were so appealing. I mean, for you know, we could argue about the moral reasons, but like clearly, like there was a business model to give financial privacy to wealthy people, like Swiss banks made a lot of money, right, So you know, now we're we're seeing maybe like the ability for perhaps like a lot more people than just the ultra high net worth and dictators or whatever to be able to protect and

their communications and privacy. Like we're basically getting like love this open source, powerful defensive technology that's spreading around the world. Like we're kind of being able to democratize the ability for people to keep keep things to themselves, which when which I think is really really important in the age

of big brother and surveillance capitalism. So maybe we're we're at the beginning of something where we're going to see really healthy, profitable industries pop up where we're by products and services are are are actually defending people's privacy and civil liberties. That would be really neat because I hope.

I don't think the change is going to come altruistically unfortunately, Like I think people are gonna want to, you know, make money, but maybe maybe maybe they can make money and help make the word world more private at the same time. Yeah, I hope So, I you know, I as you said, right like right now, it's a surveillance tech and that's something that you know, I've seen people talk out about. Kyle Bass is a well known investor, and he's been talking about how the US and Wall Street.

Corporate greed is like helping fuel China for the surveillance state, um and, so like the fact that they're putting their money in and bowing down to China only empowers them more, um and And it's motivated by greed. So hopefully, I guess greed could swing to the other side, right, that's what you're saying. But those guys know what they're doing.

I mean, they know exactly what they're doing. And I'm willing to bet that they don't want to see what they're building in China, uh, you know, in their own homes and in their own communities. Right. So at the end of the day, all these investors and you know, corporate titans who are helping build you know, the next version of the Great Firewall, they don't want that at home. So I think they're quite aware and cognizant of what

they're doing, and and that's unfortunate, shame on them. But there's going to be a thirst and a desire for protection mechanisms against the very things that they build. I mean, you can't even see this in the like when you listen to interviews or talked to you know, the famous creators of things like you know, the iPhone or Facebook or whatever. Oftentimes these people don't even want their kids

using technology, right. So, I think there's a very powerful mechanism here where I think a lot of these people know more than they let on, and they know exactly what's happening in China. They know what's happening even in parts of the free world, and they don't want that to happen, like on a personal level, right with their family.

Right So, I think there is going to be this desire to protect us against the oncoming on slat of surveillance, both from companies and governments, and I think that market will only grow. I mean, look, we've got what is it, eighty million daily active users of Signal. I mean, could it be five million and five years maybe? I don't know. I I like, for example, none of my friends using cryptic messaging five years ago. And every day I see

more people up. This person joined Signal, this person and Signal. You know you get that little message. Yeah, I've been getting a lot of them. And Signals just one of of many many messengers that that purport to have encryption. But um, I think it's coming, man, I think it's coming. That's if the government allow it, right as you as you mentioned right like with Australia with their encryption laws,

so you obviously China won't allow it. Now Australia won't allow it, and maybe it goes to the next you can you know, it's like the drug. It's like it's like, you know, marijuana, Like what are they going to do

outlaw encryption? Uh, you know, guess what. People are still going to use it, like you know, but you know, like outlawing marijuana was like one of the dumbest policy decisions of the century in America and it led to just disastrous prison system, huge violations of human rights, etcetera. I don't know that, and it was not effective, Like it made marijuana more popular arguably and more expensive. So I don't know if banning things like encryption or bitcoin

are going to lead to like favorable outcomes for governments. Um, it made the more expensive and more desirable. And because they are open source and decentralized and there's no single point of failure for this stuff, like you can't kill it. It's like basically an idea. So governments have to be very careful the way that they like approach these things. Yeah, and with with marijuana, I mean it's a physical thing that has to be grown in the space and exactly,

and that was impossible to eradicate. I mean, now we have stuff where you can you can memorize the private key to your messages or your bitcoin in your head and like around and not have it written down anywhere or even you know, on any piece of uh. You don't even have to have it on a USB stick or on your phone. It can be just in your mind. So I think it's you know, the confiscation resistant nature

of bitcoin and the um. Yeah, the more sovereign element of some of these encrypted messaging apps is very intriguing. And and and and I think I think the other thing is that you know, there has to be a need for it. So a lot of times people are like, well, we need more option, but like you need you need a need for it. And then we're what you see in countries with with these problems, you know what's going on in Hong Kong or I Ran with the bank

shutdown or Lebanon or whatever. Um, they're pushing the need for it. And so we're starting to see in those areas the rise of this new technology, like mesh networks, as you referenced before, right, So like it's almost like they're they're doing our marketing for us, Like hey, here, you know, here's a big problem. Go find a solution for it. Yeah maybe, yeah, maybe I'd like to think so. But um, back to that talk you talked about bitcoin

versus Big Brother. Um, I mean do you think like that's like the ultimate tool that we have now because it relates to our money and maybe one money is our first thing we should control. Well, the point of the talk was just to underline how important and financial privacy is going to be as we become more digital

in our lives. Like, um, you know, I still don't think people quite understand the importance of how we are moving from money being the money that we use every day being a bearer asset which is anonymous, like you know, forty years ago, thirty years ago, whatever, Like anytime you made a transaction, it was anonymous, Like the government did not know about you know, you you lot something with a five dollar bill, and like the merchant doesn't know

your name, your address, your last transaction, your email address, whatever, Like they didn't have this big fat identity stack on you immediately, like like they do now when never use your credit card or touchless pay or whatever. And like the logical conclusion of that is something like we chat, where like they know like a massive amount of information about you. Um. And at the same time they've developed like big data analysis, like quote unquote AI technology to

be able to actually analyze all that data. Like credit cards have been around for a long time, but we didn't have the AI big data analysis stuff for you know, companies and governments to really effectively sift through all that data and like do predictive analysis and things like that until until you know, the fifteen years. So we're in a new age and paper money obviously is on the

way out. It's out single digit percentage of all all daily transactions in today's world, and in some places like Sweden, Urban China, whatever, it's like people don't use cash. Um. You know, people being born today will never use paper money. Um. So we have to think very carefully about digital cash and why we need digital cash, And it's because we don't want to live in a world where all of

our behaviors and transactions are spied on and exploited. Yeah, it's so powerful, you know, it's like not what I say, it's what I do. And what we're doing is spending our money. I've seen reports of like Target and their big data and how they can analyze purchases and they may know when someone's going to become pregnant before they even know it. And uh, that's the that's the kind of scary stuff that it leads to. Yeah, and and I think that look, especially with the red to finance,

like you're spend and says more about you than your words. Right, So if I want to find you, I want to know what your bank account is, not necessarily you know what you're going on social media. So it's kind of like the truth about you is your is your spending habits? Right, So yeah, we want to keep that stuff private. And look, I'm not like, I'm not actually anywhere close to being like an anarchist or anything. I believe in good governance.

But I think we as a society to have like negotiations and compromises where like we compromise the people using technologies at their lever you know, we force a compromise whereby and and this is legal and moral precedent, where money under a certain amount of value um per day transactions could be anonymous and the government would just have

to sort of be okay with that. So for example, like you can think of gift cards today as as a really good like precedent both technologically morally legally, I can walk into a store and by several hundred dollars of gift cards with cash, and then I can go buy stuff on the internet completely anonymously, right, um, if I want to, I mean, maybe I have to enter in you know, data and things like that to buy things, But generally speaking, you can pay for certain things without

divulging your information using gift cards, which is which is

pretty amazing. So the US government has no problem with that, like and that that's something we want to read sort of encourage them to continue to not have a problem with I mean, really like from a legal perspective, what we're talking about, like bitcoin transactions being as seamless as gift cards, like using stuff like lightning, perhaps if that becomes more mature and usable again legally and morally, wouldn't be very different from from using gift cards, right, And

a huge, very large population of the US uses gift cards. I mean something of the US people are are underbanked right, So a lot of industic cards anyway, So I don't know, we need to like, you know, start having this debate, um and just I think this is why groups like coin Center are important. Um. You know, in addition to developing the technology, we we need to you know, have these conversations with politicians and try to encourage them to, um,

to not take art rights and freedoms away. And sometimes it may work. Look, it may work in America. I mean, it certainly may not. It's certainly not going to work in China. But look, we have a system and a and a culture where we could incredibly say like cash is like an American value right in privacies and American value,

and it's literally literally in our constitution. So um, I think that even though we've seen all this stuff being ben on earth to snowed in et cetera, lately, I think there's a chance that we can have some sort of like social compromise in a place like America. But you know what, like zero chances that happening in China, right,

or in Saudi Arabia or in any other dictatorship. So that's why it's kind of like regardless of the legal moral situation, the tech is has just got to be built and you know what, it exists and it's not possible to stop. So at least that's exciting. Yeah. The problem that the United States has is that the United States has the benefit of being the world's reserve currency.

So they really have everything to lose. And that's what we've seen in Congress, as you know, Red Brad Sherman's talked about many times, like we lose the ability to uh do sanctions and things like that. And so the US, while yeah, being built on free grounds or whatever, has the most Yeah, yeah, but that may not you don don't take that for granted. I just read this brilliant book. Um it's called them Handibles M A N D I B L E. S highly recommended to all your listeners

as a as a holiday gift. It has nothing to do with bitcoin, but it basically tells the story of a near futured US where um, the dollar basically fails, where like a nationalist government, um ronez is on on our on our debt and treasury, you know, crash and the rest of the world creates a currency called bancor inspired by what Keenes had come up with at the at the Bretton Wood Summit, right, And you know, I won't give away more than that, but it's so fascinating

because it walks you through what a monetary crash and what hyper inflation would would look like in America where where by you know our friends and men as well, and they know exactly what it looks like. It's a

total disaster. But I feel like a lot of Americans may struggle to connect with that because they're just assuming that the dollar will always be mighty, right, Well, it may not be right, you think, even it would not be crazy to say that, Like there could be a crazy fatal dollar event in the next decade, right, so this one happens to to take place in right, so this could happen, So you know, with that in mind, like people need to think about how assets work and

how savings works, even just for their own families. Like a big theme of the Mandibles book is that even wealthy people, they all get wiped out because all their assets are like controlled by banks or like dollar denominated or like it's just not like and and when the news hits um if there's a big moment, like when when the news hits in Argentina, or Lebanon, there's going

to be like bank controls or whatever. You don't have a lot of time, Like you know, you've got no time, so you're you're your toast, right, So maybe that money that's in that savings account or dollar denominated whatever savings account of some kind you have, or you have pension or whatever you have. You know, if that's going to continue to be denominated in a currency which is crashing, then you're screwed, right, So you need to think about

other kinds of assets. And that's what makes bitcoin so compelling is because it's a permissionless asset that anyone can access. Anyone can buy whatever amount a dollar or five dollars fifty cents um. They don't need to be wealthy. Um. It's like the great equalizer. Anyone can access a small amount of bitcoin or a large amount, but they can like take their time and energy and turn it into an asset that cannot be devalued by government in any situation.

And that's like really really incredible to me. So if you think about like the way that uh, poorer people save around the world, like they do things like they buy cows or sheet metal, and these things are very liquid and and they're hurt to trade. I mean, now, I mean, this is such an upgrade. I mean, all they need is a phone and internet access and they can activate. They can own an asset and own the

private key to an asset that cannot be devalued. Now, of course it's going to be quite volatile for a long time, but it has to be volatile that vultility goes up. Man, I mean, this is a one way of altility. So over time, so you know, we've gone from dollars to tens of dollars, two hundreds of dollars to thousands of dollars. Rights it's going that way right now, up to tens of thousands of dollars. So I think, um, it's just kind of an exciting innovation and it comes

to the right time. It's very ironic that it was born in two line, and I think bitcoin, both for privacy and also in the face of economic stability, will be a very very important phenomenon moving forward. Yeah, that that's kind of what I was saying. Where now, with with all these things we're seeing happening around the world, it's almost like they're just pushing people to this stuff.

I'm curious though, to draw back to what you're mainly working on, which is, you know, working with people under human rights foundations or violations, I should say, And it seems like, you know what, today there's half a dozen countries kind of erupting and whatnot, and we're seeing starting to see human rights violation is happening more and more.

But you're talking about this all the time, Like, are you I guess, are you trying to get like regular people like in the United States to be aware of that so they can help you guys provide resources to that. Yeah.

I mean, look, we're we're a charity, so we UM only can do what we do because of the generosity of our donors, and generally speaking, our supporters tend to be people who appreciate freedom, who either live in a free society or they've like escaped from a closed or closing society, right UM, and they want to through h RAF, help people who who aren't as fortunate, let's put it

that way. And the reason why, the reason why I wanted to ask that is trying to get people involved to care about human rights violations, and I want to be involved, I would imagine, especially, Yes, it's hard because everything is so good here, I can't imagine it never being bad. They don't care, And maybe there's some correlation with that with talking to people about bitcoin the same way. We're like, well I don't see that problem. I don't care. Well,

here's the thing, um, bitcoins and game changer. Uh, it's very difficult to get people to care about human rights. You're right, because there's no you know, you don't get anything in return. Right, it's um, you have to have like extremely like low time prefer is thinking generally to to want to support human rights because it's something that

takes a long time to manifest the fruits. Um. But generally speaking, it was hard for me to talk about things like privacy and freedom, um pre bitcoin harder now now that like people are intrigued because everybody is interested in money right in price and all these things. It is really interesting because it does allow me to, for example, come on a show like yours, where like if bitcoin didn't exist, you, I mean, I'm just guessing probably less

interested in talking about human rights. All of a sudden we've had this definitely half an hour conversation about freedom and human rights. Like it just it's a game changer from that respect, because it is the intersection of money and profit and value and freedom and human rights. Right. So that's why bitcoin is such a interesting game changer here.

And I'm just trying to rely on it and use it and understand it in a way that can help protect and and and defend people's freedoms which are at risk. And I think it's a it's a real asset, not not just physically technically, you know, economically, but also educationally definitely. I couldn't agree more. I've said that a lot of times.

One of the biggest things about bitcoin, even if it didn't succeed, is that it's got people to want to learn more, ask questions and pay attention to these things, as you're saying, because yeah, you're right, I probably wouldn't be near as interested in human rights violations and and things like this if I wasn't paying attention to bitcoin. So, UM, I guess an unintended consequence, that's very good, all right, Well, UM,

that's good stuff. UM. I think I think we can kind of wrap it up and wrap it up on that. Um Again, like I said, I know you're doing the work on human rights violation or violations right through the foundation. Um you said it's it's mainly through donors and whatnot. So where do people learn more about that? Yeah? They can. They can check out hr F dot org or follow us on Twitter at hr f UM contact me on Twitter at Gladstein G L A D S T E

I n UM. I. Also, if people are interested more about the sort of political, economic background and impact of bitcoin, I I wrote a book this summer with a few other really interesting co authors from around the world, called The Little Bitcoin Book, which is on Amazon. It's a short read, a hundred pages. Also probably makes for a fun holiday gift. Umi, was that was that with Jimmy Song? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Jimmy Song and Elena ran Nova and Lily lou and

a bunch of others. So um it's it's um Louis Bendventura, Timmy as You, Boullier, Alex Lloyd, um All hundred my shadow. It was fun. We we got together and and tried to put why we why we think bitcoin matters into a short kind of long I guess, like a short book or a very long essay. So people can check that out. It's got pretty good reviews, so UM check us out at HTRF. Check out the book. Um, and let's stay in touch. All right, Alex, thanks for taking

the time. Appreciate all the hard work that you're putting into UH to bring awareness to this stuff. My pleasure. All right. Hey, if you like this episode of The Market Disruptors Podcast, please help us take this to the top of the podcast charts. Just please do me a favor and rate, review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds to just leave a quick review goes a long way and

helping us reach more people and disrupt more markets. I really appreciate you listening and I'll see you next time on The Market Disruptors Podcast.