Did the US government just guarantee to keep bitcoin legal? Well, one of the main things I hear from people that don't believe in bitcoin is that the government's just going to make it illegal. But things that just happen might actually tell you the opposites, which is why I am about to have on Dennis Porter. Dennis Porter is the
co founder and chairman of Satoshi Action Fund. It's a nonprofit educational organization dedicated to informing policy makers and regulators in DC and around the country about bitcoin, about bitcoin mining, the benefits, how it can be used as a tool to support other public policy goals, and so much more. If you want to know what's going on with politics and what bills just got passed and potentially President Biden might try to veto overturn, then you want to hear
this conversation. This is going to be an enlightening conversation with someone who is in the trenches working with policy makers lawmakers every day. Let's go ahead, just jump right into the interview with Dennis Porter. All Right, Dennis Porter the CEO and co founder of the Satoshi Action Fund, President and founder of Satoshi Action Education for Bitcoin advocacy. Dennis is regularly testifying in support of bitcoin and digital asset policy, developing.
Really key, innovative.
First of its kind of policy across the United States, advancing bitcoin, bitcoin mining, and the right to own digital assets.
Dennis, thanks so much for joining me today.
Market's an honored to be back on the show with you and excited to chat about all things bitcoin and digital assets.
Yeah.
Man, it's been a while and there has been a lot of stuff going on, so I'm super excited to catch up.
But the first question, let's just dive right into this. Dennis.
You know, one of the biggest things that I've heard for the last whatever it is now seven eight years I've been talking about bitcoin is like almost like the single biggest thing is like the government's gonna make it illegal. And so the first question I want to ask is did it just become legalized?
I mean, that's probably a very good way to categorize what is taking place in Washington, DC. Even myself, I'm a little surprised by the amount of momentum that is picked up here for what we should call rightfully called digital asset policy in the United States. Although I care predominantly about bitcoin, it is good to see digital asset policy that will lift all boats. You know, rising tide lifts all boats in a space. We're very fortunate to
see the progress we have now. That being said, right like, we still have a lot of a lot of room to go, so to speak, with regards to passing this legislation into law. I mean, there's some major hurdles that we got to overcome. I'm sure we can get into it. But it's a very exciting time in the world of bitcoin and digital asset policy, and I'm looking forward to seeing the United States create these necessary regulatory guidelines we need in order to really benefit from this technology.
You said a lot there that I'm ready to unpack into. So first of all, do we need these regulations to give us clear guidelines. We're going to come back to that.
But let's stop. Let's just stop or start with.
Did bitcoin just become legalized? So to the point that you made, there's still a lot that has to be done. So we had bills that just got passed by the House. They still have to get through the Senate, I believe, so that's probably a lot of the work show us to be done. There's another bill that has gotten overturned and now potentially the president could veto this. So I want to kind of dig into a little bit of the nuance. So I guess let's just start with at
the top. In your opinion, you've been doing this now for a couple of years. You're deep in the belly of the beast. Let's just call it that. In the politics world, it seems like this has become very bipartisan. The sides are opposite of each other, although these latest bills seem to be I'm sorry, bipartisan. This latest bill seems like everyone's kind of together, but there's some stuff that seems more partisan where they're fighting. And so let's
just frame it up from a top level. So, you know, at the Bitcoin conference last year, almost a year ago right now, we saw presidential candidates, Vivid Gramaswami RFK, even Tulsi Gabbard not a candidate but kind of a front running political figure, all coming out in support of bitcoin and digital assets.
Just maybe a week ago or so, Donald.
Trump sort of came out in support of digital assets and crypt currencies and bitcoin, even accepting donations, and it sort of maybe puts the opposition the Biden administration on the opposite side of this, So.
Let me frame this up.
Tell me if I'm wrong, But it seems like the Biden administration Elizabeth Warren, Gary Ginsler has been very, very very against cryptocurrency, is very harsh on them. But the tide seems to be turning. And now does Biden have to do you think he has to take the opposite side of Trump because they're competing, or do you think Biden's going to be the Biden admin will be forced to sort of capitulate and just realize that they're going to lose voting base if they do that.
That's an absolutely great question.
As someone who's been fighting for a long time to make sure that Democrats and progressives also see the value of bitcoin and digital assets, I couldn't you know more, disagree that, like the Biden administration needs to take this opposite stance, although that is just very stereotypically what we do see in politics, So I wouldn't be surprised if it does happen. But I'm really excited about this opportunity for both sides of the aisle to be fighting for
the bitcoin vote. I see it very much like the same way as like, you know, who's best on the economy. Right, it's not going to be like like, oh, I'm pro bitcoin, your anti bitcoin. It is who's better on bitcoin? And we're moving towards that world. We're not quite there yet, So we could see the Biden administration take some missteps on this issue. But predominantly I really see it as as an Elizabeth Warren Gibby being given a mandate through
the elections. This is actually like a well known DC secret that during the election process, when Biden was trying to win that's what trying to win the office of the presidency, he cut a deal with Elizabeth Warren to let her to like manage him in this banking and.
Digital asset stuff. And obviously it's been very, very bad for the administration.
So you know, we could see a pivot. There's to a lot of people talking about that there could be a pivot. And the reason why is because at the end of the day, everybody's going to be pro bitcoin and it's only a matter of time, and so both Democrats and Republicans are fighting to be.
Number one on the issue.
All right, I want to take a break just real quick and say that you know, as we're talking about bitcoin and digital assets, The question really comes down to, like, are you tired of the global elites robbing you blind through all this money printing that's happening, And if so, then you need to be holding your wealth outside of that, and more importantly, you should be coming to the Bitcoin Conference in Nashville. The twenty twenty four conference is happening
in July twenty fifth through twenty seventh. It's the largest bitcoin, the largest fintech conference in the world. I've been going every single year. It's an amazing event, and Bitcoin twenty twenty four really stands as a beacon of monetary freedom if you care about that. If you care about freedom, all freedom sits at the freedom to transact, and really the darkening macroeconomic backdrop that's happening needs the bitcoin more than ever.
Now.
There's going to be top speakers there, companies, thought leaders from across the industry. They're all going to be in Nashville looking ahead for the future.
And I'm going to be there.
Lots of other people, my friends are going to be there, and ticket prices keep going up, so the longer you wait, the more you're going to pay. But I don't want that to happen to you. I'd love for you to come hang out, meet me, hang out with me and all the other speakers there. And you can save ten percent on your ticket by using code mark Moss at check out. So get your tickets now. Like I said,
the price is just keep going up. Use Mark Moss at check out to save ten percent on your tickets and hit me up let me know if you're coming. So I want to meet you. And also, while we're talking about bitcoin, we're talking about laws being changed to basically guarantee your rights of self custody. The whole piece about bitcoin that's so revolutionary is that we can custody our own digital asset, and so you should certainly do that. But how I've been using this device, it's called a
Treasure hardware wallet. I've been using it for about seven eight years now. It's been my go to device. Basically, it's a little hardware device like this that hold your private key and you plug it into your computer when you want to send a transaction. I like Treasure because it's open source. Unlike some of the security flaws you've seen in other devices. I don't want to name them right now, but it's open source, so you know, that it's safe, it's the easiest to use, which we'll have
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Your own bitcoin.
I like how you frame that, how we should just argue who's better on it, as opposed to trying to take opposite sides of that. I just I you know, there's the never trumpers, and no matter what he wants, he wants to secure the border, they don't want to secure them. It's like, unfortunately we're in this bipolar world. Where we have to, but hopefully, hopefully you're right on that.
I find it odd that in the land of the free, in the United States, any politician could run on a platform to take away our freedom of choice.
I just find it hard. How could somebody run on that platform? And it amazes me.
So I want to dig deeper into that. Let's start on some of these specifics here. So a big news for you and the Satoshia Action Fund was what happened in Oklahoma. So Oklahoma took the I believe. I want you to break this down for me, but it appears that Oklahoma basically sort of put the rights in two man to make sure that the Oklahoma citizens, I guess at least have the right to have bitcoin, own it, custody, et cetera.
Is that what happened.
Yeah, that is what happens.
For those that might be new to the work that we do at Satoshi Action, we are a bitcoin digital asset advocacy organization. We work to pass pro bitcoin bills into law. After we go through the education process with lawmakers, we help them understand the value of the technology, and then we move and say, hey, now that you like bitcoin as much as we do, here's some ideas for how you can attract this new technology to your jurisdiction.
Last year we passed our two bills into law in Montana and Arkansas called the Right to Mind Bill.
And this year we.
Took decided to say, hey, we got a couple of on the board. Bitcoin is about to go on and run. The sentiment is changing dramatically, and we should really take advantage of that and try to expand the scope of the policy. So now not only are we protecting bitcoin mining with our legislation, we are also protecting the right to self custody, the right to run a node, and the right to buy, sell, and trade.
And use digital assets broadly.
And so the first state in the country to actually enact that bill into law is Oklahoma. It did it just a little over a week ago, so very excited about that news.
But there are other states as well that are right behind.
We have Louisiana passing it in the House and the Senate and we're just waiting for it to go to the governor's desk now, so very very exciting things happening.
By the way, it's a.
Little bit of breaking news too, because that hasn't been that hasn't been widely reported, so excited to share that with your audience here today. But yes, the right to self custody and use bitcoin is now protected in Oklahoma, and real quickly because people oftentimes they say, well, why do why should we care about state law when you have the federal law going on? Is in federal law sort of the ultimate sort of power in the USA, And to some extent.
That is true.
But the most important thing to keep in mind is that when you have a lack of federal action, state law reigns supreme. But let's say, even for instance, the federal law decides to come in and say, well, we're going to ban self custody, if the state of Oklahoma protects self custody, then it's on the otus is on the federal government to come in and enforce that policy.
And just throughout history we have seen the federal government is unwilling to enforce granular types of individual policies like that where they'd have to come and knock on everybody's doors. The really clear line example of this is the cannabis industry. The cannabis industry is legalized in about seventy five percent of the country, we do not see the federal government coming and knocking on doors and taking out every individual user and cannabis industry business participant.
They just aren't doing it. And so we're following that.
Same strategy, and so far it has worked for the cannabis industry, and we believe that it will work.
For us as well.
Well.
Yeah, that's a really good example, a good analogy.
So the way that I see this bill and I like it, and going back to I said, we'll come back to do we need the government to give us laws to give us clarity on this. And so you know, I'm under the again, being an American, I'm under the belief that we are free and we're free to do whatever we want unless there's laws that tell us we can't do those things. And so the Constitution is really a set of laws that prohibits the government from taking
away our freedoms, encroaching our freedoms. And so rather than saying, hey, please give us a law that tells us what we can do with our digital assets as a slave mindset, instead we pass laws that prevent the government from encroaching. And that seems sort of what this Oklahoma bill is. It's like Hey, we're putting a law into place that guarantees your right to keep these freedoms and doesn't allow the government to encroach it. Is that a way to sort of look at this.
Yeah, I mean absolutely, the work that we do, I oftentimes tell people, you know, if you like the Constitution, then you should like the bill that we passed in a law in Oklahom. You should like the bills that we passed in a law in Montana, in Arkansas, and you should love the bills that we're going to pass in the law in Louisiana and others coming up here in the future. But at the end of the day, like let's go to the heart of that question, like
why do we need regulations? Ultimately in the United States, given the current dynamic that we're in, it is really important to have clear rules of the road so that people can know how to operate. I mean, think about it, like quite literally, like the road right when we're all driving around. If there was no speed limits, you'd have just this like very wide range of different driving habits, and that would be make driving on the road much more difficult. And although it does, you know, in some
ways slightly restrict our freedoms to create regulations. What the most important part for people to keep in mind is it creates a super highway for good behavior, a super highway for people to know, Okay, this is what I can do, and I know that I can do it, and I'm not going to mess with me, and I can go as fast as I possibly can, and I can you know, move fast and break things, so to speak.
Similar to the tech and right when we create regulatory guidelance for the tech industry, we've seen a super highway of good behavior. And obviously, of course we're trying to limit that bad behavior, and we're trying to do it in a way where we don't limit to the e step that actually crushes innovation or crushes freedom. Obviously, on the edges you're going to see a little bit of that.
But the most important part to keep in mind is that it really does create this mega highway for people to be able to go and pursue certain businesses that they know for sure are going to last and be here to stay for good in the United States.
Great, let's dig into a couple of specifics, because it's been a busy week. There's a lot of stuff going on So the first thing I want to talk about. My opening question was did bitcoin just become legalized? Obviously in Oklahoma you've already kind of covered that piece, but there's a fit twenty one, right, And so this just
went through the House past. It hasn't gone through the Senate yet, but it seems like this big watershed moment, if you will, congressional validation for the crypto industry, digital asset industry, if you will. And it seemed pretty by partisan. It was like two seventy nine to one, thirty six Democrats and Republicans together. Some say the odds in the Senate remain low. Before I get into the details of that, I mean, what's the word on the street, is the odds of getting through the Senate low?
And if so, why, yeah?
Absolutely, I mean you'd sort of need to keep your I think, perspectives and your expectations in check with regards to this.
Thing going through the Senate. I think your right to do that.
First of all, there's just there's no companion bill in the Senate. Typically, what you will see if you have a really really good effort going is you will see a companion bill where there's a matching bill on the opposite side and the other chamber. So if it's the House, you have a companion bill in the Senate. If it's going through the Senate, you have a companion bill in
the House. There is no companion bill right now. And also there's just really no constraints on when the Senate has to act, So the Senate could just sit around and there's no there's no forcing mechanism to make them actually take this bill and run it through their side. And also, one really key thing to keep in mind here is that you have the Lumbas and Jillibrand effort right on the Senate side, and they have been working diligently. I mean Senator Lummas has been putting in a significant
portion of her time. She's the ultimate bitcoin champion in Washington, DC. And you know, typically when you've spent that much time on a policy, you're not just going to be like, oh, yeah, let's go with the other guy's policy, like you're going to want some piece of the action. You're going to want to feel like your work was included. And that's Fit twenty one unfortunately, does not encompass all of the parts.
I think that Senator Lummas.
Would really want included in her bill. But but sticking to the sticking to the odds here, you know, it's not a it's a non zero chance, right like it's it's not zero, but it's not also probably fifty percent or higher that it's going to get through. And then again, at the end of the day, you also have to be, you know, considered that President Biden is in opposition to this legislation. He did not announce that he was going to veto it, but he did say that he would be opposed to the legislation.
So some of the key points that I like, and going back to did bitcoin get legalized? I mean, obviously we talked about Oklahoma, but in this specifically, I put out a pretty long tweet thread on this the other day because I, along with a lot of other people, seem to think that the probably the most likely attack vector on bitcoin will be self custody, and of course this is what Oklahoma law entrines that right to do that.
But in this bill specifically, there was a protection of self custody and so basically protecting the rights of individuals to use hardware, software, wallet, stora, digital assets, things like that, and so that was sort of the like, Man, if this goes through, it's basically legalizing bitcoin. The one thing that it just seems insane if most people don't really
understand the way the world works. But because we're in a debt based monetary system, everything in this world is debt, and they've basically taken away our rights to own anything. So things that you think you own legally technically you don't. So like the money in your bank, you don't own that money in the bank. It's owed to you. The money's owed to you. That's why the bank tells what you can do. The stocks that you own, your Apple, Tesla, etc. You don't own those. Those are owed to you by
your broker. We used to have stock certificates, there were bear instruments. No longer it's owed to you now, and bitcoin is sort of this last bear instrument that we have, and it seems like they don't want us to own that either. They want us to have that ode to us through some debt obligation. This would ensrine our rights to do that. But I guess maybe that's why there's opposition to this. I don't know what are your thoughts or what are you hearing.
I mean, that's a fantastic way to think about it, that we live in this society and in a world where everything is given to a custodian for them to hold on our behalf.
And I mean, we have very good custodial services here in the United States. I won't complain.
I mean, if you go to other parts of the world, there's just you know, there are parts of the world where if you put your money into a bank account, that money will get immediately taken out by the government. So we are very fortunate to have good custodians here. But at the end of the day, you're right, we as Americans, we the people, should have the right to hold our own assets and to be able to control our own destinies. And that's why we put self custody
protections into the Oklahoma bill. That's why I love to see that these self custody protections are also similar in their effort to protect self custody in this fit twenty
one bill. And that's going to be big moving forward, because that is, as you said, a big, big, big attack vector potentially on bitcoin, because if you can't hold bitcoin, if you can't truly engage with the technology, then you are sort of cut off from being able to benefit from the greatest opportunities that bitcoin has to offer with regards to enhancing our freedom and our economic mobility. So yes, absolutely couldn't agree with you more that. I'm probably most
excited about this part. I mean, because ultimately, like the whole digital asted ecosystem is super pumped, like, oh, we're going to have these great guidelines for what can the SEC do, what can the cf They're going to create this really big ninety day deadline where the SEC has to respond to say that it's a security or not, and that if it's not, it goes to the CFTC instead of just like making these people wait forever an
eternity and doing regulation through enforcement. So that's big. But like I'm a bitcoinner, I don't really like everyone's pretty clear that bitcoin is a commodity, it's going to go to the CFTC regardless of the lack of regulation on the issue currently. I just don't feel concerned about my
bitcoin at this point. But things like self custody protections. Absolutely, that's a huge one, and and I'm glad that not only did you highlight it on your Twitter, I was a great breakdown that you gave gave there, but they we're highlighting it here.
As well now on the other side. So this is just stuff that the House is doing, but we don't know if the Senate's going to do it. There's no companion bill to your point, and there's no deadline for the Senate to move. But the Senate is doing something on the other side. So in a resolution one oh nine, the Senate's passed legislation to overturn a previous SEC accounting rule SAB number one twenty one one, which basically prevents
regulated financial firm from custody in bitcoin. So it's still sort of this custody piece and that was put in place that said, hey, they can't custody it, and that's like this big battleground. The Senate voted sort of bipartisan to overturn that, which seems pretty positive again in favor of custody, this time not self custody but by a custodian a bank. This one seems to be a lot of people think that the President might want to veto this. What are you hearing on the street on that?
I mean, he said it himself, right, He commented, that he would veto the staff accounting bulletin on twenty one.
For whatever reason.
And I think actually that was a very big mistake on his part because you know, ultimately the digital asset ecosystem is looking for these wins. They have not had any wins in DC, and all of a sudden you see some movement finally for the digital acid ecosystem in Washington, d C. I mean, I have a lot of friends
that have been working there. I tell them, you're doing the Lord's work right, because it's just like nothing is going through in Washington DC, And all of a sudden we see this movement and it's a lot of excitement. It's there are much bigger things that we need to do in Washington DC with regards to this issue. But but the fact that there was something that moved forward was so valuable to the people that work there. And I'm telling you, man, I got friends that are just like,
what's the point of life in Washington TC. We're not doing anything? And they were looking at the down the barrel of you know, November twenty twenty four thinking, I mean, we're about to go into election mode and not see anything happen until the end of the year and then new Congress has to come in. We got to restart
all these efforts. So for them to get this, this this win, which from a regular perspective is small, but from a from a momentum and from a from a from an opportunity perspective, was huge for them to really start to get wins on the board for all their efforts, and for like the Biden administration to come in like snatch what is It's not a big, like huge, massive, like world changing victory, but it was a victory and.
It was historical.
So for them to try to say we're going to come in and snatch this victory from you, even this tiny little wind, we won't let you have really mobilized those in the crypto space and the bitcoin space, and I think that's why you're seeing the Trump administration capitalize really on this issue and say we're going to start
making sure that we take care of this industry. I don't know if he would have so strongly come out in support of the space if it wasn't for that move by the Biden administration, because it opened up a door for the Trump administration to say, you know what, we're going to take a different path on this, and now you do see quite a bit of aggressive pushes for people to support Trump and the Trump administration because of this. So I don't know for sure if he's
actually going to come out and vito it. I think it would be a huge mistake on his part. I think it would absolutely galvanize what is a very.
Non partisan or bipartisan.
Voter base that is, at the end of the day, like if you go after them, you're hurting not only their wallet, but you're hurt you're actually going after a lot of their core values on like what we think America should be about, innovation, access to your finances. With regards to bitcoin, you know, it's like the ability to be able to custody your own asset and be able
to save for the future. There's obviously a million other great things about bitcoin benefits that has to offer everything from banking the end bank to financial inclusion.
It's like, if you're.
Against that, like, that's a pretty bad place to be in because those voters are going to, like you know, they're going to go to the mat to make sure that they can protect their issues. So I've always said that bitcoin and digital asset voters are some of the most well entrenched and motivated voters if you if you motivate them, and it looks like the Bide administration is ready to ready to motivate them against his own party.
Now, he could just sit on this too, right, I mean, does he have to veto it right now?
Or is there a deadline? Is there a clock counting down?
There is a deadline, There was like a there is like a technically a ten day deadline once there's like there's a few nuances around when that deadline starts. But yeah, there is there is a deadline when he have he has to sign it or not sign it. If he doesn't sign it, then it like becomes law automatically. There's also weird rules around, like but if he isn't able to make it back in time and like the clock runs out on the session, then it's considered a pocket veto.
It's it's it's a little messy out there, but yeah, there is some regulations or rules around when he has to respond.
What I really what I really like is what you said about the momentum. We see the tide shifting. The tide is changing on this and so all of a sudden, it went from like this Elizabeth Warren led, Gary Gensler led, you know, attack on crypto. I mean she literally ran on like an anti crypto campaign and started started really cracking down choke point two point zero, all these things.
And now all of a sudden, like we're seeing the exact opposite, Oklahoma taking the state, you know, other states jumping in and trying those rights, and now these these rules and laws, and then obviously Trump taking the other side of it, Kennedy RFK taking the other side of it as well, and it sort of forces Biden's hands like, I mean, you're either going to come out and you're against Americans having freedom to choose, or you're gonna have to go along with it.
And so it's that momentum.
And even if it doesn't make it make it through in this you know, specific case, it's the momentum. It's the direction that we're going. And it seems to be very bipartisan. It seems like a lot of the Democrats are jumping ship. They don't want to go down with the with the with the sinking ship of the Democrats if they're going to be restrictive on on these digital asset rights.
I mean, is that is that kind of your take on it?
I mean, yes, absolutely.
I think that for a long time we have heard that a number of Democrats in Congress are very supportive of the broader digital asset ecosystem. Some like Center Loves, of course, are are extremely pro bitcoin, champions of bitcoin on the on the Republican side. But it's great to finally see that they were given a moment to show how supportive they are of the space. And it's a it's a really big indicator of how many folks support the bitcoin and digital asset ecosystem from the left.
And the right hand side of the aisle.
And they they were given this opportunity to really just pick a side, and when it mattered right, it wasn't like, oh, you know, maybe this isn't the right move. There was so much broad support for this legislation that it forced a lot of these Democrats that I think were quietly supportive to break ranks from the party line that they had been holding for some time. And so, yes, that momentum is building quite significantly. We are a very proud
contributor to that momentum. I mean, again, one of the very big parts about what we are trying to accomplish at the state level is to create that political momentum. There's a twenty fifteen Bloomberg study which highlights that when you see a flurry of state action on an issue, you tend to see in a very short period of time federal action take place. And we have created a
flurry of action at the state level. We have introduced legislation in over twenty different states, everything from these policies which enable folks to be protected for self custody, to be able to study the big coin ETF to see if the state pensions want to buy the bitcoin ETF, to protecting nodes, to protecting bitcoin mining. And that's in over twenty states. That's a large portion of the United States. There's a flurry of activity taking place, legislation even being
passed into law. When you see that type of flurry of activity, you do see federal action happen more often than not. We saw it with cannabis, We saw with gay marriage, We saw it with women's suffrage, we saw it with interracial marriage, and a number of other issues where throughout history, when the states move, the Feds end up following suit and acting alongside them. So very proud
that we've been able to contribute to that momentum. And we think that's a big reason why people should be working at the state level, because the laboratory of democracy is a place where we can try out new ideas and show that they work and then force the FEDS to act in good behavior.
All right, hopefully you're enjoying this conversation with Dennis and you understand that while we now are getting the protected right to customer on coin and so you should certainly do that. It's what's revolutionary about bitcoin. But how do you do that? I like to use a hardware wallet because I want to keep my private keys off the internet. You don't want to use a wallet on your phone. I've done that before I lost a lot of money, So you want to keep them off the internet.
With a hardware wallet like this, it stores your private key.
You plug it into your computer when you want to sign a transaction, and you unplug it and put it back into your safe. I've used Treasure forever seven eight years now. I've always used them because I think they're the easiest to use. Their newest device is even easier. It's got a digital display and they're open source, so you know there's no back doors or rug poles waiting
for you. I highly recommend Treasure. And then you want to back up your private key, and they came up with this new device where I can inscribe my private key on this piece of metal so it can withstand fires, flood or anything. Because you want to back up your private key, check out Treasure. I've always been using them, I'm still using them today. You can save ten percent by using codemark Moss. Again, your right to custody your own bitcoin is now being entrined into law. You should
certainly do that and use a device like Treasure. Save ten percent by u the code mark Moss. And while we're talking about bitcoin, I also want to let you know that the Bitcoin Conference in Nashville for twenty twenty four is coming up. It's right around the corner. I'm going to be there. I hope that you'll be there
as well. If you care about understanding bitcoin, digital assets, freedom, understanding the problems in the world with frivolous money printing, then you need to be in the Bitcoin Conference in Nashville. It's July twenty fifth through twenty seventh. It's the largest bitcoin fintech conference in the world, and it's really it's a beacon of monetary freedom. It's a glimmer of hope
amongst the darkening macroeconomic backdrop. Like I said, I'm gonna be there, lots of top speakers are going to be, their companies are going to be their thought leaders are going to be there. And ticket prices keep going up, and so right now today is going to be the cheapest you can get it. And I can save you an extra ten percent if you use my code Mark Moss at checkout. But like I said, ticket prices just
keep going up. So don't wait, get your tickets, save ten percent with code Mark Moss and let me know. Hit me up on social media if you're going to be there, because I want to meet you.
Yeah.
I love that. That's something I'm going to spend a second on that. The laboratory or of democracy. I've never heard it a termed that way.
But I like that.
And that's when states can compete. We can find through competition, we can find out better product service prices. Is what I typically call competition, and it allows us to try different things and see what works. And so to the point that you're kind of making them at the end, I might disagree a little bit. I mean, obviously, per the Constitution, the states are supposed to have the rights. The federal law is not really supposed to have much
power over us on a day to day basis. Unfortunately, the federal law has been creeping, creeping, creeping, creeping, creeping, and now is trying to sort of have control over the United States. But we are We see many examples where you know, basically right down the middle, red and blue states are just dividing. You know, twenty six states sign on to you know, whatever, whether it's supporting Trump, whether it's actually The next point I want to talk
about is the CBDs for example. So lots of states have come out and banned ESG investing, for example. And now we have the CBDC going on. And so we just saw the US House passed a bill banning.
A federal a federal or the Federal Reserve from issuing as CBDC.
And again that seemed to be somewhat bipartisans Well, no, that actually seemed to be very partisan.
Right.
We had two hundred and thirteen Republicans, only three Democrats voted for it. One hundred and ninety two Democrats voted against it, so that was extremely red and blue on that one. Do you guys work on that, what's your take on that?
I mean, yeah, we spent a lot of time on cbdc's you know. Generally speaking, I'm very interested in seeing a competition take place over what would be some form of dollar stable coin. I don't really prefer the idea of a central bank digital currency. I think that they not only diminish quite dramatically at our privacy as individuals, but they also just give more power to the FED, and they take that power away from Congress and from
the people. And I would much rather see a world where we have a US dollar back stable coins competing and work to be able to provide great products for the American people. And we do see that taking place, and ultimately, I think that at the end of the day, it's going to be a big win for the US.
Like you know, a lot of.
Us in some of us in the bitcoin space. I wouldn't say I'm included in this group, but some of us in the bitcoin space, you know, want to see the dollar system move away. I think that that's that's not going to happen anytime soon. We're going to see a massive proliferation of stable coins across the world, especially as stable coins become one of the number one buyers
of US treasuries. The United States likes that not only are you getting dollars and in the hands of folks across the world, you are also you know, those companies that are buying that are offering these stable coins are turning.
Right around and buying US treasuries.
I mean, tether is like the twentieth largest national holder of US treasuries, right behind Germany. That's pretty incredible, especially in a time when interest rates are rising. The fact that there is a marketplace coming in to buy these treasuries, it's actually suppressing those interest rates and keeping interest rates lower for Americans.
So it's really a win win for Americans.
I think, well, those of us that don't like the Fiat system, obviously, you know, we want to see this transition and we want to see the system get better.
I also think that the system does will get better.
I don't think we necessarily need to have a crash landing. I think we can soft land this plane and harmonize these two worlds.
I think that bitcoin ultimately can.
Become a really powerful tool to be able to show what's going on in the economy. And at the end of the day, I think it will help keep the people or the industries or the institutions overseeing that fiat system more responsible, right, because it's like a mirror that you're looking at and it like it reflux every bad move that you make. So at the end of the day,
I think bitcoin instills more monetary responsibility in governments. I think that stable coins will proliferate and that those stable coin issuers will buy you as treasuries, and that that will help stay the US economy and really the world. And then as more people this is my big pitch to bitcoiners too, It's like, as more people are on
stable coins, they're gonna buy bitcoin. You wonder how I know that because the largest buyers of bitcoin are all the people who hold us scholars, like all the Americans.
Have all the bitcoin.
Why Because, at the end of the day, like the dollar helps us to have a much more stable ability to plan for the future and to be able to pay for our groceries and pay for our rent. Yes, inflation has been raging recently. It's diminishing. But compare that to like people in Zimbabwe, Compare that to people in Venezuela. Compare that to people across the world with local currencies that just aren't operating at the way that they should be. Moving to a dollar system for them will help them
transition in a better way towards bitcoin. I mean, I've heard you hear all the time, people go into Africa, people go into Latin America. You know, why don't we see this large mass adoption of bitcoin because it's.
Not quite stable enough for people to like plan their out and they're rent out. But I think the dollar is.
And then as people transition to a crypto stable coin dollar, then from there they're also going to say, oh wow, in their wallet where they're looking at all the exchange rates of all the digital assets, a little at this bitcoin thing.
You know what, I've actually been able to save a little better recently.
I'm gonna take a little bit of my money and I'm gonna put it in bitcoin.
People need to keep in mind. This is the last point I like to make on this.
I think it's really important that the ability to save for the future and to actually save in a bank account that you know that's not gonna get pillaged. Is like a Western privilege. A lot of parts of Africa, a lot of parts of Latin America or the world.
Do not have this privilege.
They have unstable currencies, they can't save in, and even if they do save in them, they put them in a bank account, They're gonna get pillaged. If you want to save for a house, and a lot of these places, you have to buy like save in bricks. You have to buy the bricks individually because you know that your local currency is not going to maintain its value in order to pay for that house in the future.
So I know it's a little.
I would say counterintuitive for some folks that want to see bitcoin be successful.
But at the end of the day, I do really believe that as we.
Move towards the bitcoin world, we will see a pliferation of stable coins that really unlocks the ability for people to buy even more bitcoin.
Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree.
There's interim steps. So I try to remind people all the time this is a process.
It's not an event.
So like we wake up one day and it happens, is there's a process that happens. I think most nations, especially the rise of the bricks, I mean China, Russia as well. They're probably going to try and go back to gold somewhere. In the meantime, I think that might be an intermediary step as well. The people more decentralized probably go to more of like a US dollar stable coin.
There's going to be.
Lots of things that are being tried and tested, and there's a process that it's going to take us to get there. But going back to the CBDC ban for a second, they seem to be very partisan. It got through the House, but this still has to get through the Senate as well. Am I right on that.
The CBDC band, Yes, that passed to the House, and it's probably has even less of a chance to get to the Senate.
In regards to the CBDC just a little bit. I'm just curious if you've dug into this a lot. I know you've probably worked on it quite a bit in today's world. I just saw Jordan's Peters and I took my daughter to go see him a week ago.
Was amazing and they.
Talked about how at the end of a society where we start to think that we're too smart, he references the Tower of Babel. We can no longer understand each other anymore. And he said, the story behind the Tower of Babel is that they worshiped engineering. And when we get so full of conceit, we can no longer understand each other. And so today says like what's a woman? We can't understand each other anymore. And so definitions have gotten lost. And so going back.
To CBDC, like what is that?
So, for example, eighty or about ninety percent of all dollar transactions are done digitally right now. Anyway, I don't really carry a lot of cash, I hate, it's all wire transfers, debit cards, et cetera. And so we're already using a digital dollar. And so could they just not call it a CBDC? Could they just keep calling it a dollar? But since it's already digital dollars anyway, they just kind of put the extra things in there. It runs on a different set of rails. They don't really
tell us that. I mean, they can ban the word, right, but like how intricate is the bill and like what exactly is it actually trying to block?
I mean, I would say, ultimately, the major problem, I think that a lot of lawmakers have with cbdc's is that they are going to diminish the amount of privacy that Americans have because it will create a payment system where the FED has total like access to all the
data that's going on unmitigated right now. That's it's slightly different, although it's not necessarily too much better, in the sense that you know, there's a there's a bunch of different companies that have your private information, and you know what you're buying and what you're transacting on PayPal.
MasterCard, visa.
Yeah, it's it's it's decentralized so to speak. I mean, of course they probably have backdoor access to a lot of this information, and there's the third party doctrine which enables them to anybody.
That's if you give your the third party.
Doctor basically says, if I give my information over to a third party, that the government can ask that third party for it.
It's not necessarily an invasion of prising.
And that's it in like a very simplified form, and that's what allows the government to invade our privacy, which I think is I think I'm obviously opposed to third party doctrine, but the FED, it's like washing all that away, just and streamlining the capture of your information and your data.
And I also the second point that I think that lawmakers are most concerned about with CBDCs is that it gives this granular control over money that we've never seen before, and that would be a problem when you get someone into power that you don't agree with.
Like as an example, I mean, we've had.
Administrations before who have threatened to kick people out of the financial system. So the CBDCs would just blow that power up.
And enable threaten What do you mean threatened?
My friend, doctor Joe Mercola had has been count shut down. Everyone that worked for him has a count shut down, and the people that work forms families got their count shut down. This was just six months ago. This stuff happens all the time. So it's really they're really trying to protect people's privacy and freedom to transact, and not specifically the word CBDC, I guess is what you're saying.
Yeah, I think that's the big that's the big message here is protect people's right to transact, protect people's privacy, and that cbdc's with dramatically tear down those those institutions.
All right, last topic, real quick. I know, we gotta we got to wrap this up. But back to sort of the comment that you made, and I'm agreeing with that, we're seeing the tide shifting, right, We're seeing momentum swinging,
which again is ridiculous. Of course, we should have freedom to transact as we see fit, but at least we're starting to see that politically starting to swing back that way we talked about sort of Elizabeth Warren and Gary Ginsler have been seemingly very aggressive against our freedom to transact with crypto and digital assets and bitcoin, et cetera, and maybe some of that starting to.
Shift as well.
Do you think the yesterday's news of the Ethereum ETF getting approved, the spot ETF being approved, is that like Gary Ginsler realizing that he's lost the war and he's just got to throw the talent. I mean, is this like really a big signpost that like, hey Warren Ginsler, get out of the way, like we're moving forward, or what's your take on that and what does that mean in the greater context of things.
Yeah, I think that's a big capitulation and in some ways could be seen as an SEC pivot. Could where that came from I think will will be really important where that order came from, so to speak. I don't know if that was a decision by Gary Gensler himself. I don't know if that was something that was from on high, the Biden administration or the Warren camp. But ultimately that's a level of capitulation or pivoting on the issue.
Right we everyone was saying twenty five percent chance at best of an etherey a METF getting through and not.
Someone listen, I'm not living my day.
Isn't getting ruined necessarily if an ETF to and get approved, But it does. Again, I think the important message here is it highlights how much things are changing and how much the momentum has shifted to the side of the broader digital acid ecosystem. So yeah, it's interesting to see the way it's the way it's played out, don't I can't tell you. You can't read minds. I don't think anybody
really knows yet. But ultimately it is a very positive sign and in a momentum builder for the space to see this, to see it get passed.
All right, all right, well, we got a couple minutes left.
If you want to just stay like obviously Stoshi Action Fund is out there on the forefront. Do you want to talk about anything like initiatives that you're working on, like big things that are maybe in the works, things that be paying attention to.
Absolutely.
You know, you mentioned d banking just a moment ago, and that is an issue that we care deeply about as ATOCI Action. We see folks in the bitcoin, bitcoin mining, digital asset space being d banked at rates I mean, I've never seen in my lifetime, I've never even heard of historically, and we want to make sure that we put an end to the banking. And there are three major components to the powers that be in the banking world. That is the OCC. It's the federal regulator for banks.
It's the FDIC. Those are the guys that do the insurance frear bank account. And then there's the FED. They have the FED Master accounts. We did a lot of research. We put out a big paper on this. I encourage people to go look it up on our websites atociaction dot io under our policy section under debanking, and it really highlights how the major point, the major choke point for anyone is the FED Master account. Because the FED has godlike power over who gets a fed Master account.
You don't need to look any further than Caitlyn Long and Custodia to know that they were denied a fed Master account. In my opinion, I think it was pretty obvious it was done in a discriminatory fashion. And so we put forward this paper saying this is the problem. Fed Master accounts for the problem. How do we solve this problem? And I believe that we solve it by having states have their own fed Master accounts. And we're already all the pathways to showing that that can be truly success.
The state of Texas.
Already has its own fed Master account. North Dakota already has a state bank with its own fed Master account. So we don't even need to pass legislation to see
if this thing will work. We really just need to take that, knowing that we have those fed Master accounts and say, okay, let's position this industry underneath that fed Master account and see what the federal government is going to try to come after the states, Because at the end of the day, if they try to come after state's powers to bank an industry and their own fed Master account, you are just like striking right at the heart of constitutional powers that are given to the states
in the dual banking system. And if you do that, you are going to see the fastest tracked a banking lawsuit get to the Supreme Court in a matter of time. And I think with the current makeup that Supreme Court would definitely side that dual banking still exist in America, and if that happens, we essentially end debanking in the United States overnight.
Now you talk about the FED Master account and that's, like you said, reference Kaitlyn Long who's been on the show a couple of times, and she's trying to get a bank through and they won't give her the ability or they won't pass they want license that to go through. But when you talk about the banking like Conductor Joe mccola's case, for example, it was the commercial bank that shuts a count down. So I mean, are you saying
are you saying that came from the Fed? Like, hey, commercial banks shut his count down, But it seems like the decision was made at the lower level because he was able to get other banks.
Listen, the banks are businesses. Why would a bank not want you to come do business with them? It's because the federal regulators are applying undue pressure on banks to debank those people that they don't politically agree with, that they don't align with, or that they don't they think is a competition to their banking system. Right, So the way this works is the FDIC says, hey, I'm going to raise your rates.
If you bank this industry, you know, you better watch out.
And then the banks themselves are like, well, we don't want to deal with that, or the FED or someone else in the regulatory space, like, we're going to audit you if you don't, if you don't get rid of these crypto people, see they're safe, that they're unsafe, they're not sound, So we're gonna have to audit you a little bit more and that's going to bring your costs up.
So it's very pervasive the way that it's taking place.
But at the end of the day, that will power at the FED Master accounts is the one that you hone in on because you can get away from the FDIIC. Right, you can say I don't want insurance at my bank. I'm going to just do a fully reserve back one and five percent like Kitlin Long. You can also In the case of the OCC which is the federal regulator for banks, you can say, well, I don't want to be federally regulated.
I want to be regulated by my state. I'm going to be a state charter bank.
So you can avoid those two regulators, but you cannot avoid the FED Master account. It is impossible. You have to have either ad.
Direct access to a FED Master account or you have to.
Bank with an intermediary bank where or your bank that you want to go to that say like offers crypto services, has to go to an intermatory bank and say, hey, you have a FED Master account, let me use your settlement process with the FED in order to ensure that I can not only bank these people, but still you know, get everything cleared out. But that is a situation where those even those intermediary banks are saying, we don't want
to touch anything. We don't want to touch other banks that are crypt banking the crypto industry, because we're going to get pressure applied to us by that, you know, that federal banking mafia system that's been created over the decades and over the last hundred years. Really, so that's really where the problem is is that if you try to bank this space, then you're going to run into
one of those problems. And even if you try to eliminate the two, the FDIC and OCC, you simply cannot eliminate that chow point the Federal Reserve.
Good stuff, Dennis. I know we got to wrap this up.
You're on your way to a nice little vocation, so I don't want to hold you back from that, but I do want to just kind of shout out just a little challenge just to the audience.
Again.
I was just seeing Jordan Peterson live last week with my daughter. He was amazing as always, and at the end he talked about how and really his message has always been that we should all take personal responsibility for ourselves, and that's always been his message, like pull yourself up from a bootstraps, wipe your face off, like take responsibility
for yourself. And he talked about the difference of tyranny and slavery and how they're sort of opposite sides and the slave doesn't want to take personal responsibility for themselves, are just always being told what to do. And the problem is that he says that specifically in regards to the way the world is working in politics.
And specific specificity, if.
We don't step up and take personal responsibility for ourselves, and we don't step up and take personal responsibility for our our political system, our local politics, and maybe on a bigger level, if we don't step up and take responsibility for that, then the tyrants will So by abdicating our responsibility, that leaves a vacuum. The tyrants will come
and pick that up. And so his challenge is be responsible not just for yourself, but for your community and for your and for the political system as well, if you care, and to be honest with you, Dennis, I heard him say this. This is the second time I heard him say this, and it's just like, oh, it's like man, it's like he's he's absolutely right. So I applaud what you're doing. And I recommend everybody go check
out the Tushi Action Fund. If you can't, if you don't have the time, maybe you can at least support them in some way. Anything else you want to say in closing, Dennis.
No, thank you again for having me on Mark, And yeah, I'll finish with a with a great Plato quote.
You know, one of the.
Penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. So it's true. I know a lot of people don't want to engage in the political system. They don't like it, it's gross. But if you just say, hey, I'm going to abdicate that responsibility, I'm not going to get involved, somebody's going to get involved and they're going to end up making rules that
you have to follow. So I always tell people, you know, if you want to make sure that America upholds its values and that we had the right direction, that there's no better way to do that than to get involved in the political process.
Awesome, all right, Dennis. Always a pleasure. Thanks for joining me today.
Thank you, Mark