Bitcoin Mining with Renewable Energy

City of Pluton Mining, and we talk about bitcoin. We talk about mining. We talked about electricity waste as what people say, how renewable energy can solve that, different ways we can look at and use renewable and energy for that. We talk about proof of work versus proof of steak, um security, mining costs, and things that are that revolve around the security of the bitcoin blockchain. We also get into some sanctions, regulations and things like that and talk

about the future of big win. It's it's a really good conversation I was excited to have with Remark. So here we go. All right, Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today we are joined by Ramac City with Pluton Mining and Um. He's got a really interesting story, specifically about mining. I know it's a topic a lot of people have interested in. It's a super important piece of the entire cryptom ecosystem. So we're gonna dig into some mining stuff today. I'm excited to get

into that and remark, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for giving us a chance to talk about our project and having me on your podcast. Yeah. Great. So. UM, just so we can get a little background, so we have some context of who we're talking to you. Why you just kind of tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got here into this mining space. UM. My background generalist thing is is real state and technology um UM. I moved to Houston from l A in

late eighties. I started a couple of thousand means about hurts. I helped it was a family situation, and then in early nineties I got into technology m I started Tennant screen service. In late nineties, I built one of the first nation white criminal databases. Uh. Fast forward to about four years ago, I started doubling into I c O S and crypto. Got to consult with a company about an I c O UM and we ended up actually this recommending that they do such a thing. Then I

got into mining. In about the mid two thousand seventeen, I got to buy some a SIC miners, the famous S nine, and I ended up flipping those, uh and got into hardware. Then in in early two thousand eighteen, got into try to mind myself with a company out of in Atlanta that was a tool disaster. We ended up suing that company in Atlanta, locking the owner out of the data center because they were just treating cutomers right. And from that you could see it was coming. I

got into a bigger project. I ended up buying uh about fifty acres of land in western law hobby thought about building a project that's more pragmatic, solves the problem for for mining. Yeah. Okay, so you experienced some of the problems firsthand that that's inherent in the industry, and now you've just decided to kind of go out and solve them on your own. It sounds like it's it's

an attempt, correct Now. At the time you talked about buying the AASIC miners, the S nine, So for those that don't know, S nine miners are used for mining bitcoin, and so you bought them. But at the time in ten I guess when bitcoin was running super hot and parabolic, Um, you thought it would be a better idea just to sell the miners than it was to actually mine at

the time. Yeah, if if you're so, let me just say my focus was on on bitcoin mining generally speaking, because the other the other you know, mining situations were not up tomis for long term structure wise. So I got into the S nine and they were hard to get. This is we're talking about summer of two thousand seventeen. Trying to get miners from bitmin which was the only supplier at the time, you had a four or five months backlog and you have to fight your way to

get the miners. I got my hands on ordering about two hundred of them, and I had to pay cash upfront for it, and it took four months for them to actually deliver. So it was I mean, they were hot items. So by the time they arrived, they were so over priced. This is late two thousand seventeen. Bitcoin was hitting twenty you know, and those miners by the time they arrived there, I mean, they were they were

valuable pieces piece of equipment. Yeah. So, Um, for those that aren't aware, I'm sure most people are with bitcoin, it's a proof of work consensus mechanism, and the way that the coins are brought into existence is through mining. It's a super important piece of the ecosystem and it's really about security of that. Now I'm curious for me um. You know, with the mining we have with bitcoin, we

have a difficulty rating that goes up and down. And when we saw the bitcoin price crashing, you know, down into the three thousand, well even if the six thousand ragns, there was a lot of talk about this death spiral and that you know, the miners would be losing money and and I think maybe a lot of them didn't shut down. What did you think during that time? So it's a tough situation. I got involved once I understood what mining was. Miners are essentially those computers that hold

the this real Ledger records. Without the miners that blocked in the network wouldn't exist. That's when. And then you have the built in algorithm that that are just every so often about ten days. Uh, And that way itself gives you time. Now, these a sick miners, they use about fifteen hundred wards of power to give you an idea to bedroom, you know, a condo in southern California uses about four hundred and fifty per month. These miners

are fifteen hundred wats. So it's all amount a matter of cost structure, the degree of difficulty adjust itself based on how many miners are connected. So you don't have to worry about that. You just need to worry about what your cost of operating these miners are the biggest costs being electricity. So if you're running at a low cost, people in you know, December of two thousand and seventeen, we're signing contract to host their miners at fifteen cents

per per killer. What the fifteen cents you're essentially paying about two hundred dollars a month for the miners hosting. That's just not something you can do long term u in. In my opinion, bitcoin is going to continue to hit the higher highs and higher lows, but when it hits the lows, you need to be prepared for it. And

that's essentially the problem. Right. So as the price of bitcoin came down, the profitability of mining went down as well, and a lot of miners couldn't continue to mind because their cost of electricity were too high. I think I saw the average was around five cents or so, does that make sense when now or the full cost of electricity cost of electricity that you do in mind, five cents is actually pretty good. In early two thousand eighteen, when the prices started to drop, was closer to ten

to eleven cents. If you got anything below ten cents that was a good price. Then you had giggle. What who was offering you know, two and a half cents three cents to people, which was I mean over the top all included cost for them that they were selling to retail was still seven and a half to eight cents.

So yeah, And as the people unplugged where they didn't have the coverage, that's where you you had the problem of of basically people unplugging their miners, that in itself drops down and it will adjust a degree of difficulty the distribution for the others. So it's a matter of it becomes a matter of survival of the best, essentially, right, and and the survival of the best a lot of it, like you said, comes down to that cost, and a lot of that cost is um depending on where you're located.

Um right, So in southern California and New York. I mean, you have some of the highest electricity rates in the country. I'm in southern California. I know in the summertime I'm paying peak like forty cents a kilowat absolutely and then if you haven't in some of the areas where you're renewable, you can get those costs down, like you said with giga water places that are hooked up to that. Now, the thing with mining is um you know it is

super important to the ecosystem for security. But you have this whole argument about bitcoin that it's a big waste of electricity. What are your thoughts on that it is? And that's one of the shoes. Not enough people are using their own renewable source. Most people idea was to go find which area they have cheap electricity and try to grab that, so they're not doing anything to help

the ecosystem and they try to solve any problem. Yes, it's using a lot of electricity, But if people start to use their own produced electricity through renewable source, that's where you're going to see a lot of the movement, and that's where the people are going to the future is going to be. I thought I've seen reports that as much as eighty percent of bitcoin miners are already being ran on renewable energy, well not on their own

internal they go to use. For example, giggle what claimed that they use some renewable because the majority of the utility companies out there use the hydro power to generate electricity. That's not what I'm talking about. They you need to own your own hydro power, You need to go out there build your own solar form. If you're saying that that, it may be true that miners are ran on renewable energy, but that's not energy that the mining company is actually

generating on their own. They're buying it from a power company which is generating be a renewable Absolutely correct, That's exactly what I was trying to say. As far as the you know, the argument that that it's a waste of electricity, I don't know if I agree with that because I don't believe that there is a waste. Right is an energy created on demand, So you're a you're a customer of the energy company and they're going to supply it for you as you need it, or you

can create it on your own. But there's really no waste, is there. So let me play the devil's advocate that the issue is that for utility company, when you're a customer, they have to generate electricity at their peak usage. And if you're taking that and they're generating electricity, the community at large doesn't see mining as a benefit to the community. I mean, it's not a sector that chris tremendous number of jobs or does anything specifically for the current you know,

society to solve any problems. So the way they see it. Take an example, again, we can take I mean data centers, bit main bot or giggle what, gigle what. Yeah, they had the capacity util to the companies had the capacity. But then going in there taking that energy for for mining, you're taking five to ten years worth of that community's electrictic growth away from them. And that's where the problem is.

That's why people in general see mining as a waste, because you're taking electricity away from the community's ability to grow. Once they run out that peak capacity, then they have to spend billions of dollars into building more capacity. And and and then I guess, as they say, right, one man's trash another treasure, right, So we all value different things. I saw recently there was an article that said bitcoin mining uses as much power as as as Las Vegas

something about New Zealand. I mean, yeah, I mean it's using a lot of it. Like first say that, but but but then you have to go I mean, and I understand exactly what you're saying, and I agree with you that the average public doesn't doesn't see the value in that. UM. I think for us, those of us that do understand what's going on with bitcoin, we do see the value. So then I would argue that the electricity that has spent, the money that is spent, is

worth it. It's worth it to secure this asset, and it's worth a heck of a lot more than powering Las Vegas that a bunch of gamblers go to or whatever. Um. I I understand the average public doesn't see that, but I think over time hopefully they will. So the year is continue to do this, and the way I'm trying to I'm trying to make sure the mining community can

see what the average person is looking at. In two to five years, all these communities are going to have to increase production of electricity because they're growing internally, and a lot of that capacity has been taken by the miners. So they're going to be looking at either the electrictic capacity for the utail, the companies issue two bonds and average you know, residents constituents are going to have to

pay for it two to five years. Every single community is going to have to increase either capacity or end void terminate the contract for a handful of companies who are sucking up enough power for one to five million households. And that's the problem coming up. Why would what I would the resident of Las Vegas one to approve a two billion dollar bond for extra capacity if five miners are terminated and that you know, creates capacity for another

million household That's where essentially the problem is going to be. Yeah, yeah, I can definitely see that. I'm curious though, you say, like every community would have to do that? Um, wouldn't it be? I mean, so one people think that mining is really concentrated in China. Um, But I guess you're saying every community, So you see it really the mining becoming really decentralized. That was so. I was actually at the World Dishtrial Mining Summit that bit men put together

last September October. I was actually one of the speakers there. Um, let me tell you all the miners from China, Mongolia over there, and they were all looking for new hosting space to move their miners. Um there, I think that ninety percent of the miners out of China either shut down or moved out of that space. A lot of miners are coming onto to us, quite a bit in Europe, a lot in Australia. So it's getting a lot more spread and it's not nearly as concentrated as it used

to be in China and Mongolia. Mongolia was one of the I mean, I think at some point that we're giving out electricity for a penny. Her Killer was right. So we're starting to see that decentralization of mining. And then, um, I would you know, in investing, I always say money goes where it's treated best, um, and I would imagine the same is true. Right, the mining is going to go where it gets the best rate, So it'll go seek out those low power areas of the world, and

that's where those set up shop. Absolutely, as a free market thinker, I have to always believe that. I always have to believe in supply and demand. Um. Now I understand, and there's government intervention in price fixing and whatnot sometimes, but for the most part, there's always apply in demand. So it would make sense that being in southern California or New York with the highest electricity rates sets because the demand is the highest, and likewise the places with

the cheapest electricity probably have the least demand. And wouldn't that be where the miners would go to set up and help maybe offset that or augment that. Listen, they don't see the community doesn't see that asn't offset They can't. They can offset it for a couple of years, but remember again, they're taking away from the community's ability to expand before they have goal to create factory, find another

way to generate more power. Electricity companies the grid has to worry about the peak our usage and then when it goes to off peak, it's not that they can just shut it off. They can reduce the production by but not by fifty seven percent. So they are going to go to all those and they they've tried. It's not for lack of trying. Texas Bit main body Data Center, Kentucky.

They even bought it in Niche County where giggle what was but they never ever got those two to open up and they saw they used the electricity, but within two years they got bills and notices and the public utility commissions void and terminated their contract with a four x pricing crews. Right yeah, So, um, what you're doing and what we're talking about is that you're looking at mining,

but where you can produce your own power. So instead of putting the load on the local um the local system and making taxpayers pay for that VIH bonds, you can just create your own electricity through your own renewables, mostly through solar exactly, and the trick becomes the peak hour production. So the way we try to solve this problem is being pragmatic. If you go all solar, it's

too expensive because at night you don't have solar. Battery storage is too expensive still, and if you go all grit, you're gonna run into a problem two to five years after starting. So what we did is that we're going to produce our own electricity for peak hour in the best area of the world for this purpose. We're sitting in western Mohave in the ninety percentile of solar rate for electricity production cool weather. Again, this is western Mohabbi

not the Mohabbi desert everybody has in mind. And then at night we become partners with the utility companies. Saturdayn California Edison one of the most expensive electricity you know, companies in the world. As you mentioned they are. They listed price for volume retail on commercial for off peak is two and a half since per kilo WA and they want to get rid of that excess capacity because they don't know what to do with it at night. So let's talk about some of the opportunities that are

in mining. So UM. For example, you have anywhere down from a single person could buy a mining rig and set it up in their closet all the way up to um giant institutions setting up, you know, billion dollar facilities. Where do you see the opportunity? I mean, do you really think there's a good opportunity for individual people to get in or really uh is it really more reserved for big institutions or can everybody participate in some capacity? What are your thoughts there? I think there's gonna be

opportunity for both. You're gonna see a lot specially for the for the A six. You're gonna see a lot of structured basically from the big, big money, and you're going to see smaller opportunity that are gonna come from Let's take Venezuela in in In that case, there's a lot of individuals basically run in using the the the mining as extra basically income. So there's gonna be a

combination of the two in my opinion. Moving forward, you're also going to see with renewables, you're gonna see areas that are under developed that are going to use more and more renewable energy to for for production of the mining. Take areas that are in similar situations like Venezuela right now with high inflation, who have solar there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to use that that energy to do mining and generate you know, income for the community,

to help the community. I think that's where the future is going to be. So you think there's still opportunity for the little guy to have one or a few machines and make a profit all the way up to you if big institutions wanted to get in. Long term, there's there's obstunity for everybody. This is not a short term, long term absolutely. Now, are you only focused on bitcoin or do you look at other coins as well. So at this point for this particular project, we're just focused

on Bitcoin because it's structured. As you mentioned it, it's already into the ASIC world. There's no change. It's on based on proof of work. There's no rumors of changing that. Nobody can tweak with it too much. So for long term, if I'm gonna invest x amount of money of my own money and I want an area that's basically guaranteed for the next twenty five years, I can make long term predictions. And that's why we're focusing at this point

strictly on on bitcoin mining. Right. Yeah, as you mentioned, they haven't said anything about moving to a pos nor do I think that would ever even become a reality. However, it is a reality for a lot of other coins. You know, Ethereum has been talking about switch quite a while, and it seems like most new projects coming out today are all pos um. Do do you see that as well? And does that worry you for like long term you know ability not for bitcoin. I don't see that happening.

There's just too too so you think you can find focusing on bitcoin and not having bitcoin at this point, Yes, the other ones. I mean there's there's arguments to be made on both sides for you know, proof of stake or proof award, but yeah, for proof award and bit bitcoin, I'm comfortable moving forward where I can see future in this aspect of the mining with the proof award for the next twenty thirty years. Right. What about regulations? So, I mean we have we're seeing just kind of more

and more regulations. We're seeing the US being and most of the developed countries. I guess do you asked Europe, etcetera. But the US has kind of being a little bit tough on regulations. We've seen with the big Facebook news that came out and whatnot. Um, they really want to control the on rams and off rams for sure. Um, how how does how does that affect mining? Because you're basically creating it from nothing, Um, they can't trace that trail, etcetera.

What do you think about that? So I'm gonna say something that's not too popular in crypto. We need some some regulation. We don't need regulations like they have in India. If you touch crypto, you're gonna end up in jail. But what what do we need? And why? Listen? I don't think if if you're a sixteen year old and you come up with a wish list and you label it a white paper, you should be able to raise twelve, thirteen or a hundred thousand dollars without some consequence to

you if you don't deliver on what you promised. I can agree with that. Yes. On the other hand, you shouldn't go after a company like take Facebook for example,

they need to do know your customer. Everybody says just because you're a member of Facebook that doesn't mean But as it stands right now, from what I understand, if you raise money through a token offering, even one person of that money goes into either expanding your current infrastructure or operation or into getting into new ones, it wipes the utility condition away from that offering. So SEC is going to come after you because it becomes instantly a

security is offered. That to me is the other extreme. I think when it comes to raising money, that seems to be pretty black and white. You know, now, what we've seen is these companies they're raising money for their private company, and then they have a separate token offering where they're not raising money. Um, I think that's clear.

I'm more concerned with you know, and you talked about your facility in California and I'm in California as well, and we had a representative Sherman come out and say what a month or two ago and say specifically, quote, UM, we need to ban US citizens from owning cryptocurrencies. Um, you know, And so I just talk about just like those regulations that could um specifically, I'm getting into the on and off ramps UM in the k y C. And I'm just wondering how that affects mining though, because um,

you're creating it, you're not buying it. But are you Are you seeing any of that or you don't think that's really getting into the mining side of thing. So the irony of our project, we sit property line to property line to a golden silver mining operation. It's pretty ironic. Yeah, it's this is no different than them. They're digging gold from the ground, they're generating gold. If they hand that gold out to somebody, they should know who they're handing

it to. Same thing with crypto. If we're generating crypto and we're handing it to somebody, we should know who they are. We should do our or you know, you know your customer M l A and so forth. For if we're handing that out to somebody, so that regulation has to be there. But Sherman's idea, that's the other extreme.

No U S citizens should touch crypto. I think one thing crypto has demonstrated is how many of these people who we thought were pretty smart have no idea how cryptocurrency works, what it is, what blockchain is, and hollo. They have capacity of accepting that they may not know. I've been involved in this thing for four years. I'm a newbie by all measures, and I've done technology. I've done all these things. Uh, but I also know I

probably don't even understand fifty percent of it. For any of these people to think that they have a couple of advisors with whom they spend five minutes to explain something so broadly, and then they come up with such a black owned white decision, no US citizens would touch cryptocurrency. That's just not right. Yeah, it's not right. I agree

on I agree with that. You know, and you can see the policy makers, the legislators, they're usually pretty old and um, this is a new technology for young people, right, So that's a that's a problem in itself. However, in his case, he understands exactly, and he quoted it and he said the reason why is because it undermines the US dollar and the U that's the security problem. And if and the U S dollar could lose its ability

to sanction countries like Iran. He called them out specifically, so he actually kind of gets it, um, and he's afraid of that. We saw Christine Leguard from the I m F. She said, quote unquote, UM, we need to stop innovation because it threatens to disrupt everything. And so they get it right, They're like, WHOA, Well, we can't have this because it's gonna ruin everything that we have.

That's the whole point, right, So for bitcoin it is, but if they understood it, they would be working on trying to use the technology blockchain for things that's i mean, voting, property ownership, car registration. It's like blockchain was just meant for those. I mean, imagine everybody's complaining about their voting fraud whose you know, people are voting to three times. If you put the whole thing on blockchain, you're done. Nobody can do it. It's immediately there. And that's why

I have to applaud this state of Delaware. They're moving forward with that. They have a law that now a corporation the issue shares under blockchain and it has to be under blockchain for everybody to see them verify. Those are the approaches they should be taking. You know, they understand and I'm sure somebody has handed them some sort of boiler plate of what it is. Yes, it undermines the the US dollar, but that should say something about the US dollar. First of all, they can you should

be working with it. If they think they can stop blockchain bitcoin and and the majority of these that's why I say they don't understand it. You and I know there's no Look at China, they've tried to stop it. The it's just not possible. It's not possible. And uh, you know, we can see how well the US has been able to stop the flow of drugs. That hasn't worked so well. And and the other problem is, you know, like he said, Sherman said specifically, Um, it takes away

our ability to slap sayings is on Iran. So what does Iran think about him saying that? Well, Iran is like, really, well that's great, then we want it right. And so you have these couple of countries that that oppose it, but the rest of the country is the world is gonna embrace it. And so it's it's very interesting and I don't like to predict things, but it's definitely something to pay attention to. Absolutely absolutely, Yeah, yeah, good stuff. So, um,

where the record, let me just add to that. I am from Iran, I'm Irani, and I actually gave an interview for publication in the wrong so uh, you know, it's yeah, it's you're a hundred percent right on that aspect.

Oh well, I should have asked that earlier. So that's interesting. So, um, you know, I've had several guests that are international that have been lived in one or two countries, come from other countries, which I think is great because it gives you this this bigger, broader perspective where you know, a lot of people in the US are are very kind of close minded, haven't really traveled a law up and I always have to remind people that this is a

global thing, and so coming from another country, um, it really gives you that perspective. So I'm curious, coming from here on, um, do you see this differently? I mean deuced? How are they looking at this do you have any idea what they've been doing as far as their own regulations and how they're viewing it. I'm not very familiar from the inside, and I've been around the few countries lived there. I moved to the US twice. I grew

up in France. I sent my teen years there. Um. I met a few people, a couple of reporters at the World the it main hat world uh usial mining in Tipolisi, Georgia. From what I understand that, I mean, they have some cheap electristy, but from everything I hear, they're running to the same problems as everybody else's because again,

the country was giving. In those countries, the utility companies are government own, they're not private, so they were giving the Christy out to to do these things, and now they're going back giving those putting those people out of business as well. So it's the same cycle over and over. You know, it's a catch twenty two. They are implementing regulation, it is not really helping them to to bypass the sanctions. Uh in a sense that puts it them in it.

But yes, there it is a loophole if you will. Yeah. So, um, I'm curious to know, what is you what what is the thing that has you the most excited about this space in the near term? Um, maybe in regards to mining or something else, like what do you what do you see coming down that you're you're focusing on you're

excited about. I I think it's it's opening up the door bringing on these politicians who don't believe in blockchain, and they're more focused on those aspects, for you know, is helping Ivan bypass sanctions versus how can I get involved? How can I make us a better country, our system

a better system by implementing blockchain? UM, I know there's a company out here in Santa Monica that's working on on a network of voting on on a not exactly a blockchain, it's a semi private structure that they're working on. Those are really the part that really gets me excited is to see how it's going to help the general public and and all the other aspects of the way we live, just like the Internet that I'm a dinosaur

in this space. I'm fifty two, and I think most people I meet are less than half of my age. They have an experienced first and how the Internet change the way we live I remember building my having my first business card, handing it to people and I at an email and a website on there, and they're like, what is this again? So this is the same thing. This is gonna change us. I think the voting, car registration, public ownership, property ownership, those are really really exciting aspects.

The shows the general public hord this technology can change the way will live a thousand times more than the Internet. And you just hope it's all gonna be built on the bitcoin, right, Well, no, Bitcoin won't be able to handle those things. Bitcoin is going to be, in my opinion, the gold standard. I mean, gold is there, but there's other things. You don't go buy gold, you know at Starbucks pay them in gold, but gold is there. Is gold is a layer one based settlement layer, but you

build payment rails on top of that. Um, and I think with layer two and layer three stuff we already seen on bitcoin, eventually I can get there. Um, it's gonna be the most secure chain in the world. So I think eventually gonna at least handle all the high value stuff and the coin minor like yourself, I would love that there are a couple of side chains that are being built to address that. UM, it's it's gonna

be a longer project. In my opinion. You're gonna see some of those others on on a on a sideline. You're gonna see some exciting exciting, but there won't be the ones where you you process millions of transactions per second. This is gonna be more of an overall structure, data keeping and things like that with the new site change that are coming on board, right right, all right, Well, good stuff, really good information about mining and really thinking

about the power the renewable I can definitely see. You know, one of the one of the things that can really affect the security of of bitcoin is if miners have to stop, if they capitulate, and so you know, the producer own power. UM, definitely take some of that away. So that's good in the long run. UM. So where would people be able to keep up with you? If they want to follow you and get more info, they

can go sign up on Pluton mining dot com. They can also look us up on any of the social media platforms with the handle Pluton group as one word and Pluton To just give you a quick background, this is a Pluton P L O U T O N and it's the is the Greek god of wealth and finance, and ironically the iron in this is pretty interesting because it was Pluton p l you t o n, but that god apparently got banned in the Greek you know, I guess terminology, and they change the name to Pluton

p l o u t o n to bypass in a sense regulatory sanctions, which is interesting. Yeah, that's great. All right, Well, thanks so much for coming on. It's been talking to you and we'll see you. We'll see you later. Thank you again for having me. Hey, if you like this episode of the Market Disruptors Podcast, please help us take this to the top of the podcast charts. Just please do me a favor and rate, review and subscribe.

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