My grown son, Ryan, who is an avid reader, said I've got this book series you got to read, and normally I'm not gonna lie like he likes a lot.
Of fantasy books. And I was like, I don't know.
But then he said, no, it's about this guy who's a wizard and a private investigator in Chicago now, and I was like, okay, you had me at wizard who's also a private investigator. The books were The Dresden Files, and he gave me the first one, which is called Stormfront, and it's so entertaining and so interesting, and the lead character, Harry Dresden, is in my view, probably an aspirational type character for a lot of men. He's not only a wizard,
he's a private detective. He is an investigator, and he's also perpetually kind of grumpy. I mean, he's he's really got an all in one package, and he's been created by author Jim Butcher, who joins me now to talk about his Is this your seventeenth book coming out twelve months? Is that coming out seventeenth? Did I see that?
Well, it'll be the eighteenth book in the Dress and Files, if you don't count the two collections of short stories. You count them as the twentieth and then I've got I think nine other books out as well.
Well, I love it or not dress in books.
I want to start by by saying, you know, Jim, first of all, I'm glad you're coming on the show.
That's thing number one.
My son is very excited about you being here and has given me a bunch of nerdy.
Questions to ask you.
But I went to your website and I went to your about page, and your about page at jimdash Butcher dot com has to be the greatest about page in the history of about pages, because you clearly outline how you got published and it was definitely not a straight line uphill for you. And I love that you shared
this story of perseverance. So if you could kind of for my listeners who haven't read the about page, how did you get from nineteen year old kid writing a terrible first novel, that's what you said, to being a guy who's now published we'll call it twenty stories or encapsuled books about about Harry Dresden.
Oh well, it's one of those stories that I like to tell because it keeps me humble, or or I hope it does. But yeah, I wrote my first book and it was an It was a terrible book. So I wrote another one and that one was terrible as well, and then I wrote four more and those are also awful.
And it was right around that point that.
I decided, okay, you know what, maybe I should start trying to learn from people. So I wound up going over to the English Department, from where I had started off in computers, and I decided that I did not want to work a computer job. And I went from there to business business programming, and I realized that I did not want to do that either, and I tried, and this was all I was writing on the side,
And then I tried. I tried going into education, and I had the problem with that was they send you out to observe teachers in class, and it was just the particular teachers I was observing.
The boy they were miserable people, and so I didn't want to do that either.
And then I thought, okay, well, maybe if I'm going to take this book thing seriously, I should go to I should, you know, learn something official in school.
So I went to the English Department, said I want to write novels. This is the right place.
They said, yes, absolutely. So I went to English and I wrote another book and it was terrible. And then I heard about the professional writing department in the journal in the journalism school at the University of Oklahoma that was actually taught by a professor who was also a novelist with forty books out, and so it was a much more kind of a practical training, you know, where they were saying, okay, let's let's The first class I took was called writing a genre fiction novel.
There you go.
And so I wrote several genre fiction novels in class. I wrote a couple in class, and they were also bad. And so so finally I decided, and I just I'd been arguing with the teacher left and right, because I mean, I had gotten my bachelor's degree in English literature, you know, with an emphasis with an emphasis in creative writing, and meanwhile she had merely published forty novels.
And you know, I was kind of at that age where I still knew everything.
Yeah, I've forgotten most of it now, but as as but as as it went, I decided, all right, the way the best way for me to prove that this teacher is wrong about all the things she's she's trying to get me to do, because I was going to be writing swords and horses fantasy. That's that's what I wanted to write. I wanted to be the next Tolkien.
And uh, you know, she kept suggesting, Hey, Jim, you know you keep talking about Buffy the vampire, sli hair and babble on five in class, maybe you should try writing like an urban fantasy book or or a science fiction novel.
I poo pooed it, But finally I decided to prove her wrong.
And the way I decided to do it, I was going to do absolutely everything she told me to do.
I was going to fill out all her little forms and do all her little worksheets.
And and you know, follow every little rigid thing that she was teaching me about about how to write a good story, and that would show her what terrible cookie cutter patlum crap.
Would have emerged from that all the process.
So I did, and I wrote the first book at the Dresden Box, which which showed her.
But as it worked, as.
It turned out, you know, she I turned in the first couple of chapters of Dresden Files. And bear in mind that This was a teacher who believed in preparing you for the reality of the New York publishing world, which is a very cut through kind of place. You know, if you don't do your job there, you don't stay.
And you know, her critique had included such things as rolling up the chapters I'd handed into her, leaning across her desk, popping me on the head with him and saying, what were you thinking?
She was that kind of teaching.
So I hand her the first, you know, the first thirty pages of the first Dressdent Files book, and she picks it up and starts flipping through them and reading them and reading them and reading them, and finally she looks up at me and says, well, you did it. I said what, because that was not something I'd ever expected to hear from her. You know, she was always the I mean, she would tarry uppart.
She's like, you did it.
This is of saleable quality, this is professional level writing. I don't know if this will be the first thing you sell, but you will be able to sell this book, so you know, please, you know, you know, by all means, keep this book if you're gonna be able to sell it one day, even if it's not the.
First eving sell. And I was like, wow.
She's like, okay, now come back in next week with an outline for the rest of it, and she meant the rest of the novel roll I roll in the next week with an outline for it for a twenty book long series with a giant three book capstone trilogy at the end. And I handed into her and it's a console course, right, so you just you're just talking
for forty five minutes. And I handed into her and I'm chattering with her and I'm just going on and on, and at some point I realized we're forty minutes into the into the meeting, and she hasn't gotten to say anything to me.
So I kind of stop and go, what do you think? And I can still.
Remember the look on her face, right, she just got this kid on board. I finally got this kid on board. I can't derailing now, That's what I can see the look on her face now, And she.
Can because there's no way you're gonna go sell a twenty book series in New York as a first time offering you. This is not gonna happen. And so she says, I think you can sell a twenty book long series should be doing, okay, And I was like, okay, great.
And because I charged full speed ahead, and because she hadn't told me it was impossible, I did it.
Did you ever dream small ever?
Well? Apparently no. I mean, I'm just right.
I'm just writing ridiculous wizard books, right like I write popcorn books.
But I want to write like the very very best popcorn books. That that's head of my goal was a writer.
Let's talk about Harry Dresden, because now that we know he sprang forth out of a desire to prove your instructor wrong.
How did you decide? How did Harry Dresden come to be?
Like?
At what point were you like, Okay, I got a wizard, and let's give him a job. Okay, is he going to be a firefight?
No?
Is he going to be? Is he gonna be?
No?
I know he'll be an investigator? Or was that?
Were you looking for the investigator first or the wizard first?
And they all came together? How did he come to be?
I knew I wanted to write I wanted to write an investigator. I wanted to write a wizard. That that part, you know, because I was putting it together, and I'm hitting here thinking about it, and it's like, okay. So it was a very it was a very mechanical, very inorganic process.
Right.
Basically, what I did was I went and picked my top half dozen wizards and my top half dozen private investigators, you know, from various books, and then I chopped them into bits and reassembled them like this Frankenstein.
And uh uh and and.
And then and you know, I was just picking my favorite traits from various wizards, various various private eyes. And what I realized was that wizards and private eyes in the realm of literature, they have the same job. They go into places other people aren't willing to go, to find out things that other people aren't willing to find out.
And that's and.
That was when I realized, oh wow, there's a lot of synergy going on here.
And so after after that, you know.
Whether they're going into the the the criminal underworld or the the literal underworld, you know, that's kind of what wizards do. And and so I realized, Okay, I've got something. I've got a good thing going here. So I took my favorite bits of shear Locke and Spencer and Travis McGee and and several other you know, several dashal hammock characters. Uh And I mixed them with my favorite wizards from my fantasy books and just took my favorite traits from
the wizards. And it's like, I absolutely have some that have have somebody who's going to be really, really snarky and lip off to absolutely anyone.
I need somebody who's going to who's going.
To be extremely, extremely stubborn and just can't be deterred from from his course of action.
Uh uh.
And and I also I wanted to write a lot of humor because I felt like that was sort of, you know, sort of played to my strength as a writer. And so I put this character together and I assembled him as this Frankenstein. I put him in this story. And at the time, it felt like a complete waste of time. It felt like I was just doing this, you know, as a class project. You know, it wasn't going to turn out into anything cool or meaningful or
anything like that. And here we are, you know, I'm working on book nineteen.
Now, Well, let me.
Just say I and I know this is probably gonna be blasphemy, knowing what you just said earlier, in the interview, but I have never been able to make it through any token book. I have tried multiple times to get into. But it's the notion that I have to have a glossary in the back to explain to me the words and people and stuff of a fantasy land that I don't enjoy for whatever reason, it doesn't connect with me. But with The Dresden Files, you drop him into modern
day Chicago, so I have a frame of reference. I understand. It's one of the reasons I love Buffy. Yeah, I love Buffy the Vampire Slayer because you have all the monsters and everything, but it's modern day, right, So I don't have to be a lover of fantasy to love the Dresden Files because it already feels familiar.
That's what I love about it, right.
That's one of the great advantages that when I'm writing Dresden, you know, I can say, Okay, they were in a Walmart, and that's all I have to say, because people have been in Walmart, you know.
And after that I can and I can establish these.
Places that are very familiar, that are that people are comfortable with, and then fill them with these you know, fantastic incredible creatures that maybe they're not.
Familiar and comfortable with.
But because we've got this setting, you know that, you know, it feels like, okay, maybe this could happen.
Let me give him a little bit more time to see how it plays out.
Well, I want to.
My son is the one who introduced me to you, and he sent me a long email. I'm going to afford it to you so you can see all of his nerdy questions as well. But he said, and I want to read this. I want to read this in its entirety, this part of it anyway, mister Butcher, thank you for the wild ride that has been Harry's life and for letting us in on it. It's got to feel crazy on some level that so many people resonate with the series. The truth is you've just written some
damn good books. I look forward to continuing the adventure in twelve months. That is the next book, coming out in January. Also, while I know that some fans out there would kill me for this, I hope you don't give us all the answers. There's something real and bittersweet about not knowing the history of this organization or that artifact. Even if you yourself know every detail. I hope you keep your own Tom Bombadil hidden away in there, sir. That is from my son super Nerd love this kid,
and he loves you. So I wanted to ask you kind of about that question. How far in advance, like you're about to release twelve months, how far was the story put together in terms of your twenty book arc that you pitched to your teacher.
Are you on track in that arc story wise?
Or is the story evolved since you came up with that twenty book arc.
It's it's evolved a little. I'm still mostly on track. Wow, I've never written a twenty book long I've never written it right now, I think it's gonna wind up being twenty five books total. I've never written a twenty five book long story before though, So, I mean, originally it was going to be twenty.
Three, but I think I'm gonna need a couple more before I get to the end. So far nobody seems to mind.
But but yeah, I mean, at this point, I'm a little superstitious about deviating from the from the plan. It's working out so well, I mean, it just what seems churlish to turn aside I mean that twenty five year old kid. He might have thought he knew a whole lot of things he didn't know, but he also had
some good ideas. And I, you know, I've still got my my notebooks from class back then, where I was outlining oh yeah, absolutely, and uh and and yeah, I outlined kind of the basic structure of what was going to happen in the story.
I knew what was gonna happen in the story world all the way through to the end.
And now it's you know, now it's it's I'm getting close to the end of it, so you know, hopefully I can make things pay off in a satisfactory way.
My friend Ben Albright just walked in the studio. He too is a super fan, I found out yesterday. Do you have a question for Jim, Ben?
Not a question, just to thank you man.
You know, your books help get me through college and a couple of deployments in Iraq. Even watched the TV show The Dressed and TV show with Paul Blackthorne. I enjoyed that as well, So I just to thank you for creating a world that some of us could get lost in for a little while and forget about the world we were in.
Oh, thank you man.
That's what I think the role of especially fantasy writing is is to get people to escape things for a while, you know, to get into a different world than our own. And that's I'm so pleased I was able to do that for you while you were deployed, man.
And thank you for your service, No, thank you, thank you for providing the hours of entertainment and enjoyment.
And this is why we do it.
So, Jim, let me ask you this last question before I have to let you go. First of all, this has been an absolute delightful interview, and I should have known it would be after your about page, which I'm telling you, if there were awards for about pages on websites, yours would be literally like head and shoulders above everybody else.
But when you hear something like that and you meet the fans, because I'm sure you do some of these fan fests or stuff like that, I mean, have you had the opportunity to go and actually meet people, what do you get?
What? What do you what do you get.
From those experiences? When you do get to meet the people like Ben and my son who love your books, what does that do for you?
It's kind of a recharge, uh, you know, because a lot of times, you know, I'll get discouraged because you know, writing is a sort of a marathon occupation, right.
I mean, it takes months and months and months to write a novel.
And when I get out to meet the fans, and there's a lot of times when you're when you're when you're writing, and it's just like, oh man, nobody's gonna like this. I mean, it's ridiculous for me to think that, you know, given the evidence. But still, you know, that's kind of like what being an artist is.
Right. You're you're worried that eventually people are gonna find out you're a fake. And so here I am.
You know, I right, But when I get out to meet the fans, and I'll have these people and they'll come up to me and they'll tell me, hey, I was reading this book. I was reading these books with my father and I, you know, the Will while he is dying new cancer. And it was everything that we got to get. We got to read these books together while that was going on, and it got it let him escape his pain for a while, and it let us be closer together because we hadn't been for years and years, and.
I just want to thank you for that.
And somebody comes up and tells you that story and you go, oh my god, I was just trying to pay the bills.
You know.
But but you know, but at the same time, I've been able to create this and and this, you know, kind of this little, this weird, little seed that I planned has grown up into this big tree that that a lot of people have been able to take shade in. And when I get out to meet the fans, it's like, Okay, you know what these books are. You know, they're going to help people. I mean, they're not They're not going to change the world. They're not going to alter the
fabric of reality. But they are going to make somebody's day a little bit better. And and they are going to make somebody's.
Really rough time a little better than it would have been without them.
And I feel like, if if I can make that, as if that could be my contribution to the world as a human being, that's very satisfying. When I get to get out meet those people and hear those stories, it kind of renews my commitment to takes well.
Jim Butcher isopreciate your time. And you know what I always tell people, Not all of us can cure cancer, but we can entertain you while you fight your cancer.
There you go. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you, sir.
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on