Once a high flying minister, now a broken man. It was a significant error of judgment on my part, but it was an honester.
In two thousand and nine he was found guilty of corruptly receiving secret commissions and jailed for seven years. In twenty ten, he was found guilty on five charges of official corruption and five charges of perjury and jailed for an additional seven years.
This is my challenge to the government of the day. Do you bring an independent person up from Ministate, not from Queensland, but someone from Ministate. My name is Gordon Nuttle and this is my story.
The man behind the Rose Episode five. Hello, my name's Patrick Condred. In this penultimate chapter, Gordon Nuttle says he'd like to have his case investigated by an independent interstate jurist. It's clearly a sensitive issue for the state government. A spokesman for the Attorney General of It DAF said in a statement the Attorney doesn't want to comment on this.
Gordon Nuttle's life has had some strange intersections. He first ran for Parliament on the Sunshine Coast and twenty five years later a land deal for the Sunshine Coast University Hospital brought him undone when the corruption watchdog uncovered the unrelated Talbot and Shanned payments, is.
There an allegation? I don't know what is the allegation. I don't know who is being investigated.
I don't know the CMC finds adversely in relation to Gordon and I will take whatever appropriate action is necessary.
He was Health Minister when wrote doctor Jay and Patel worked at the Bunderberg Hospital. Now Nuttle is being treated for stage four cancer at a hospital in Bunderberg.
The letter you at table clearly shows that there are difficulties and problems to that hospital.
A fact acknowledged by the Premier, who says he'll personally visit patients and families left permanently scarred by their experience with Queensland's doctor death.
Question is the baby now adjourned? Does that opinion say? I?
And it was in the Queensland Parliament where Nuttle first spoke about Ken Talbot, not to praise but to criticize. And it was the Queensland Parliament where Gordon Nuttele became the first criminal to appear to address MPs about taking three hundred thousand dollars from Ken Talbot and not declaring it.
I will shortly call mister Gordon Nuttle to appear in person at the Bar of the House to address the House in relation to the specific charges of contempt set out in the Order dated seventh of April twenty eleven.
As a political editor covering the momentous event, it was an extraordinary thing to witness the Sergeant at Arms, carrying the massive gold mace, walked out of the chamber and through the door of an adjoining room. Meanwhile, another attendant carried a lecturn into place for Nuttle to use during his address. Once the parliamentary stage was set, a grim faced Sergeant at arms emerged from the office where Nuttle had been held.
Sergeant at Arms, please bring mister Nuttle to the Bar of the House.
It's a day no one who was there is likely to ever forget a convicted criminal, one of their own, fronting the Bar of Parliament to appeal to his former colleagues not to find him eighty two thousand dollars in relation to contempt charges arising from his dealings with Ken Talbot and Harold Sheen. We are one of Richard Nuddle's labor MP John mckel was the Speaker of Parliament at the time.
The charges are that, on forty one occasions you failed to declare matters on your Register of interests that you were required to declare. Mister Nuttle, do you agree to waive my reading of each of the charges? Has stated in my letter to you, dated the eleventh of April twenty eleven, which is hand delivered to you on the fifteenth of April twenty eleven. You are acquired in your address to observe strict and direct relevance to the contempt
charges and the recommended penalty. Mister Nuttle, if your address becomes irrelevant, I will be compelled to take appropriate action. Your appearance before the bar of the House does not carry with it a right to ask any question. There is no right for you to table documents without the leave of the House, and you should not assume such.
Leave will be granted.
You must direct your address to the House only through me, as the Speaker. Mister Nuttle, I expect that you will respect the courtesy shown you today by giving you this opportunity to address the House, and in return respect the dignity of this house. The House has resolved that the time for your address shall not exceed forty five minutes.
Mister Nuttle, you may now proceed with your address.
While Speaker Mackel outlined the rules for this extraordinary proceeding, a gaunt Nuttle shuffled his speech notes and looked around the room where he was once a senior lawmaker. None would meet his eye. His suit hung loosely on his frame. There was no red rose in malapel.
Mister Speaker, honorable Members and the people of Queensland. I have considered long and hard how today's events my unfold.
I remember it very clearly. It was history, but it's not history.
I wanted to make history in what way?
Well, he was the first convicted MP who had chosen to rather appear before the Bar of Parliament, and so there was a lot to that occasion in terms of.
When you think of criminals, you think, oh, it's somebody out there.
But this was somebody whom most of the members that either had a coffee with an interaction with may be seen at lunch.
So it was somebody who was known to.
Somebody who'd arrived in a paddy wagon, somebody who had to be escorted by the Queensland Custodial Service and then given over to the Sergeant at arms.
There was a.
Massive human dimension to it, as I recall in that his family had requested of me that they'd be allowed to meet with him, a request that I granted. There was understandably not just statewide media focus, as I recall, it was national media focus on it.
I feel as though perhaps I might have the same result as the Christians in the days of the Roman Empire when they fed to the lions in the Colisseum. I hope that is not the case today.
There's Nuttle paused. You could hear a pin drop in the Parliament. The normal verbal rgi bargie MPs normally could be heard shouting at opponents across the chamber had fallen silent.
If we have a look at the sentence that I have been given, it is greater than anyone. I have served more time in jail than anyone in the Watergate scandal ol Capone and he got eleven years. I've got a greater sentence than that. I stand here today and ask and employ you, in the interest of justice, to hold an independent judicial inquiry into the conduct and behavior of both the CMC.
Mister Nuttle, I've asked you already to get back to the charges.
Well, as I said, mister Speaker, I'm endeavoring to do that or.
To the penalty. I would ask you to a vide by my ruling. I know this is emotional for you, it's emotional for all of us. There are forty one charges of contempt and there is a penalty. I am not trying to intrude onto your address today that you would understand from your experience here that there are other avenues open to you to well to prosecute an issue against the c.
Well, mister Speaker, Honorable Members, the question I suppose I have is how did it all come to this? Trials convictions at any costs, parliamentary reports, today's appearance at the bar,
the tarnishing of reputations. If the House chooses not to accept my defense, then to accept my sincere, my sincere and unqualified apology to the House for the non disclosure of all matters raised in the reports one five and one one four by the Integrity, Ethics and Parliamentary Privileges Committee, and that this unqualified apology be accepted by the House as a suitable penalty. Mister Speaker, I simply do not
have the financial capacity to pay a fine. I've indicated to the House what has happened in terms of my assets, and I simply am not in a position, in any way, shape or form to be able to pay such a fine. So I do ask the House to consider.
What I have just said.
Speak of honorable members. I'll conclude by thanking you for having the courage to hear me today and for listening to what I've had to say. Some members of this Parliament, and in particular some who were once my close friends and colleagues, have chosen to judge me from afar. When I needed you most, you chose to desert me. Not one phone call, not one visit, not one voice of support. In the movie Break a Moriunt, prior to his execution,
Mornt left his colleagues this message. And a man's enemies will be those of his own household. Mister speaker, how sad but true. Some of you have chosen to publicly condemn me, and some have even sought to use my downfall to their advantage. In politics, most of us experience highs and layers, and as members of our respective political parties or even as independent members, we share those times together.
There's a popular old song from a band called the Hollies, with lyrics which talk about the long and winding road and of just being there to support one another in times of need. I have reflected on this song because I've always believed that, as part of the labor family, when the difficult times arose, the bonds of our beliefs and values would bring us together. Sadly, though, when the storm clouds loomed all around me and I looked for
your help and support, there was no one there. Instead, you chose to cast me adrift and join in the feeding frenzy when there was blood in the water. In living my life, I have made many mistakes along the way, but I have never knowingly or wrongfully set out to do wrong. And it grieves me greatly to think that there are those who have a different view. Many of
you here to day know me well. You know the type of person I am, the values I have tried to live by such vailues as justice, mercy, and compassion, and to always treat others as you yourself would wish to be treated. This has been my creed in life. The attacks on me have been so vicious and vindictive, and I too have lashed out today all of us have the opportunity to cease and to forgive. To my family who are here and to those of my family who cannot be here, thank you for your love and support.
I also thank my true friends for their loyalty and their belief in me. I am bowed, but I am not beaten. I am bloodied, but I am not broken. I have fought the good fight. I have finished the race, and I have kept the faith. May God bless you all and keep you all safe from harm.
Thank you, Miss Nettle. You are now discharged from the order of the House. Sergeant at Arms, please escort mister Nuddle from the chamber and deliver him to the custody of the Corrective Services officers. It was hard because you wanted to give the God a chance, but I also had to keep well, I know, as speaker on other things. The moment you give a bit of leniency, well you gave, and so it's far better to just stick to the topic at hand.
That's what he was there for. Use your forty five.
Minutes for that, and then we're all up and away.
And there were concerns from your own party, the Labor Party MPs, that he might stray and enter into an area of defamation possibly or start to spill some of their secrets.
Yes, well, I don't know what they'll possibly worried about.
I know what I was going to enforce, and I was going to enforce the fact that he was there to answer two charges the moment the second he straight away from that, I was going to pull that up, not to defend them, because don't forget this, the other members of Parliament who could get up and in fact, I think one did get up on many occasions to allege all manner of things, and if there is that element of corruption, there's an entire independent royal commission there
that mister Nuttle could have referred any matter of things to. So for me it was quite plain what was going to happen. He was going to answer those two things, and that's why he was pulled into line with that. But I will say I was quite gentle with it, because you get I overcome with the emotion of it. I mean, here is somebody who has been one of everything. If you were there that day, there was a certain
poignancy in the house. It was gut wrenching for everyone that here is one of your own and gut wrenching, and that in a sense of almost g I really don't want to be here, and people looking down was my recollection of boy, this, give me somewhere else. I didn't get elected to do this.
And having spoken to him about this, or about the time that he addressed the parliament, that's his enduring memory as well. None of the MPs on the floor would meet his eye.
That's correct because of that. If you're on a jury, you don't know the person who excluded if you do.
But here we knew. Everyone knew.
I mean, if you asked the past judgment, you knew where you'd come from that morning. It was home, breakfast, beautiful. He hadn't He got up at whatever time in maximum security, no less, escorted in handcuffs, in handcuffs in a paddy wagon and the moment it was all over.
Thank you, missus nuple.
You are now discharged from the order of the House.
If you read the words, you will the sergeant at arms take mister Nuttle.
Sergeant Arms, please, ys called mister Nettle from the chamber.
When I read it now, it's not my words, but the sense of occasion is very powerful.
Take mister Nuttle. Back to the custodial offices.
And deliver him to the custody of the corrective services officers.
Back to maximum security.
For heaven's sake, I'm the subject of maximum security. He spent five and a bit years in maximum security. Do you think that was fair?
The prison officers, I would say, look, it was maximum security, probably to protect a high profile prisoner.
I guess that's what they'd say.
When I look at it, I think, Look, couldn't we've as taxpayer has got better use of of.
That money by.
Sometime in maximum because of the offense he was going to do eleven years or whatever the number was. Wouldn't they be able to go out into a farm somewhere, or a school or vincent the pool and help the homeless, or help prepare the meals and go back to jail. I mean, as I recall Don Lane spent some of the time like that.
I believe in Scott Driscoll in more recent times the LMP, he didn't spend a great deal of time in prison for his offenses.
They made an example of him.
Can I take you to another issue that Nuttle has spoken to at length to me about, and that's this issue of the pecuniary interest Register. His view is that if he'd filled out the pecuniary interest register with the Talbot money, none of the other bad stuff would have followed. He would have not escaped punishment, but he would have not had to endure five and a bit years in maximum security, another twelve months at a prison farm, and
then eight years on parole. None of that would have happened if he'd just filled out his pecuniary interest register.
Well, the problem was is that he said there was no secrecy. If you look at his statement, Well there was. He'd been given money and had not declared it. Now, I don't know.
How you get around that.
It was a case at the time I thought it's pretty plain what the rules are.
And even if.
You're unsure because an accountant's arranged your affairs in such a way, see the clerk and say, look.
This is the situation.
If I had to do that, most members have to do it, because sometimes you're in situations that are not clear cut. For example, a relative dies, you're left with money, where does that fit? And that's what the clerk is there for. He's not there to sort of say our conjun was in today. I guess what now. They provide my experience of it, they provide professional advice. If you
entered into that arrangement. There is no situation that I could see that you couldn't and should not have declared that that's what those things are there for.
And so if he had declared it, do you think any of the other stuff would have happened.
Oh, he would not have been fined for the contempt. The contempt arose out of non declaration forty one times. Now, I didn't sit on the coming, but they would have had a look at that. And don't forget it's an all party committee and it's not, oh well, we'll use the labor majority or something.
Don't forget we're using a labor majority. That's your argument to convict a former labor minister.
My experience on those committees was that your work done hard to get everybody on board. Now forty was it? Forty one charges? And the committee said there was a case to answer. Now I know he argued there was double jeopardy. No no, no, no no.
There was a.
Criminal element for which he was imprisoned, and then there was a parliamentary element and he was to answer to the parliament when you.
First saw him? Did you see him before he arrived at the bar? You were sitting in the Speaker's chair. He was delivered to the Bar of Parliament. What did you think when you first saw it?
Am I going to be able to speak?
Because there's the enormity of it. Up and up until Lanta had been Channel seven news and you know he's.
Going to appear, and Cory a mile.
That day and then suddenly there it is. There's an enormity of it. How is this going to go? But how is my voice? Am I going to be able to say?
Well?
I had just set script to read out.
So is an emotional time?
Yes, it was hugely emotional, hugely emotional. This is somebody I had known at school. It wasn't you know Al Capone or somebody who I had was splendidly indifferent. This was somebody I'd been in the cabinet with, somebody we'd had a yarn with, somebody i'd seen before I got elected to parliament.
He was in the bank and I know what I was doing.
So it was hugely emotional for me and thinking how are we going to get through this?
Well, we're going.
To get through this the best way we can, because there's no president that I could see. There was no other jurisdiction where a prisoner who had been a member of Parliament was going to appear before the.
Bar of Parliament.
Hugely emotional and you'd have to be an extraordinarily dispassionate person if you didn't feel the weight of that emotion, I would have thought.
And he looked he was quite good, and his memory from that time was that he had been ill. Yes, he cut a very forlorn fingure, didn't he Yes, I was aware.
From one of the attendants, who was a friend of his, that he had been suffering an illness in prison.
And that just added to the weight of emotion.
It added to the pathos of the of the morning. Yes, it did.
It was.
It was hugely, hugely emotional, and going back to the it wasn't just me who felt that it was everybody's gaze was averted, the feeling of I wish I didn't have to do this.
It was in this parliament that Nattele originally criticized Ken Talbot, the man who would eventually loan him three hundred thousand dollars that would see the MP CENTI jo there's a very famous exchange where you criticized Ken Talbot in parliament and then some years later he's lending you three hundred thousand dollars.
I criticized Ken parliament. I was given some information that I probably didn't research properly enough. I then found out about that. At a subsequent one of the big law firms had a board lunch. Ken was there. I was, and I went up and I apologized to Ken. I offered. I offered Ken to stand up in parliament apologize. He
said no, I didn't. He didn't want that, And I think, ironically that's kind of how the makeshift evolved, because he thought that took a lot of character for me to acknowledge that I was wrong and or to apologize to him and then to offer or apologize publicly. So kind of that's where we kind of became mate.
In his book Rum and Cole, which Canvas is the Life and the Legacy of Ken Talbot, author Chris Wright looks at the relationship between Talbot and Nattle.
So Ken Talbot's relationship with Gordon Nuttle really starts in nineteen ninety eight, when Gordon must All spoke about him in parliament in quite negative terms about his business dealings. It was a matter that's really quite obsessed and Talbot at the time, but over time it faded, it came and went. It was just one of those things being discussed in Parliament as things are. Then they met in person for the first time in July two thousand and
one at a lunch. At that lunch, Golden not All apologized to Ken, apparently told him that he'd be misinformed and what he'd said in parliament, and the two became friends, I guess, not for very long. I don't think. I think they only met about four or five times in the subsequent year. But it culminated in June two thousand and two when Gordon not All came to Ken Talbot's office and, among other things, asked for a loan, supposedly to help set up his children, who he was concerned
about being able to back with real estate investments. That request was agreed. He agreed to land one hundred thousand dollars over the next year, but ended up becoming three hundred thousand dollars over three years, and the rest I think is history. But that was the beginning of the relationship.
And is your sense that Ken Telbot was a generous person that he did regularly lend people money for these sorts of matters.
He certainly had an extraordinary track record of generosity. And when it came to trial, this is one of several things, and I'll point to some of the others too, that it would have been essential for them to get across. Proving can Talbot's generosity would have been the easiest. You could have lined up one hundred people he'd had some sort of donation from them, whether it was the guy across the street trying to start a new business, or it was Wayne Bennett, or it was the Australian Ballet.
Huge contributions to all sorts of different things, rugby clubs, individuals, loans to people who just needed a bit of tithing over before they had to repay a tax bill or something. There were plenty and plenty of illustrations of that. The key question with Gordon Nott all would have been what would can have got for granting that loan? What was expected? Was anything expected? In what circumstances do you lend to people? And that would have been a vital thing to explain
at trial. I might speak to that for a second because it's quite crucial like them. Certainly in the committal hearings it was very clear that the prosecutors could not, for the life of them, understand why someone who had known someone else for such a short amount of time would commit so much money to it. So what was
going on there? And I think part of this was a psychological question ken Tell that had grown up in modest means in the dialing down so you referred to himself all the time as a self made coal miner. He was very proud of what he'd achieved. But I think there was still a little bit of imposter syndrome, a little bit of an inferiority com likes going on there. And I think there was in some sense a delight in being at a position where one could be asked by a member of government to help out. But he
took I think some pride in that. Look at me, I've arrived. Now, I've arrived down here in this place where I help up my mates, and one of them, one of them works in government. Now, that of course was problematic because that those payments were deemed by law to be illegal and Gordon Muttles on trial. But I
think some of that was going on as well. But one other thing is the question of what he could have got for this, and they're the crucial thing that the defense would have pointed out was that Gordon Muttle never had a portfolio which can Telbert could have benefited from. Not of the time anyway, that's another crucial points. You know, Gordon muscles physicians were chiefly in health. They had nothing
to do with mining and resources. And the Teilber Group MCCA, those guys were so connected in Queensland at that time that they could have gone straight to Peter Betty, the Premier of a time. In fact, bet even testified in that pre trial materials that deed always have picked up
the phone to Ken Talbot. So at the time there was nothing really to gain from a friendship or from payment to Gordon Nuttle, although the prosecution would have ordered well maybe not today but perhaps some stage in the future. So there's a lot of different dynamics coming on here, all of which would have been thrashed out of trial.
Do you get a sense that Talbot, who was also facing trial at the time of his death, do you get a sense that Telbot ever regretted giving the money to Nattle.
Well, certainly given the consequences it had to his life. Yes, absolutely, I mean there was a very real chance that Ken Talbot could have faced jail time as a consequence of those commissions. Logically, you would think if one side of a payment is considered to be corrupt and leads to jail, then the other side of it might do so too. He was adamant he could beat it, and you know, the members of his legal team I spoke to were
adamant that they had a very good defense. But nobody was naive enough to think that there wasn't a realistic possibility of prosecution and jail time.
Here.
Certainly, without question, can tell that he believed he was innocent intent at least, which is not the entirety of it when it comes to law, of course, but there it is. But certainly he would have regretted what this situation had got it into. I don't think there's any question about that.
Do you think, given your extensive research, that it has put a cloud over Tilbot's legacy?
Yeah, I think clearly it did. He was extraordinarily proud of what he had achieved in life, and again, those modest beginnings were rather central to that pride, and the idea that that reputation might be tarnished by this bothered him enormously, and I think he did hope that a trial there was a whole side of him he could get across which would explain some of the way that he behaved, and some of the witnesses would have been absolutely crucial on that, and Wayne Bennett is by a
distance the most significance of them. When Bennett told me a number of times that he would happily have gone on trial and spoke into Ken's character. You know, this is twenty ten. You know, his reputation Wayne Bennett in Queenland at the time was absolutely immense. I don't doubt it would have been significantly reported and may have had
an impact. So in some sense he believed trial was an opportunity to redress a tarnished reputation, and of course that never happened, and we'll never know what would have happened. Would the jury of being convinced by this, would they have decided was another example of the corruptions that the Muscle was sentenced for. We'll just never know, but clearly a proud reputation was damaged by this.
Yet no question Nuttle says he's not trying to retrial his case, or he's not trying to he's not trying to rewrite history, and that also describes that the whole saga is an error of judgment. Do you think it's that easy?
I can't speak to Gordon Muscle's motivations. All that I can say as it relates specifically to Ken Talbert is the one thing that really makes you wonder about this idea of a corrupt series of MPs is that, for the life of me and no one else I know can quite see the obvious point of benefit too. I've a party in that beyond the fact that you know, Gordon Muscle received money. So this again is the point of what Gordon Muttle could have done for Ken Talbert.
But there was no obvious favor that he was ever in a position to grant in government. So that perhaps points to that's the side of the argument that would say, Okay, this was a matter between two people rather than something with obviously corrupt intent, but clearly neither side should have done it. I mean, I believe the law is reasonably
clear on this point. In fact, this question of legal commissions, I think is one of the only instances in all of Australian law where the burden of proof is on the defense not the prosecution, which gives a sense of how seriously it's taken in Queensland law and brought me an Australian law. You know, you're not supposed to have payment between the private sector and government figures, and I
was supposed to accept them. So error of judgment certainly, intent behind us I can only guess a ken side of it, golden muscles. I can't really speak to it.
Took about four or five months of discussion and note taking between his office and my lawyer. There's an exchange of letters, so I'd say it's hardly secret when you're doing it like that. So the deal, the agreement was that he would lend me one hundred thousand dollars a year over three years.
What year was this?
That was back in probably two thousand and two, somewhere around there, somewhere around that time in the early two thousands, you know. So the deal was that one hundred thousand a year divided by twelve was eight thousand whatever it is that went in to my account to monthly installments from him. Yeah, and it went into my account in my name. Wasn't it a hidden trust? It wasn't it some sort of dummy company or anything like that?
Why not the kids' names if it was for the kid because it was easy to put in into one account and then it went from me into the three accounts, gotcha, rather than get him to say.
Look, I need you to put one there and one there and one there. Sure, So the kids all bought a home or modest times. The three homes ranged between one hundred and fifty and one hundred and eighty thousand.
And what did Ken get in return?
Ken got nothing. He never asked for anything, and I never offered anything, and so Ken and I never put a time moment on it. There was never a time moment on it. And that's what the CMC grappled that. I think their view basically was he's a businessman, he's a politician, money changed hands, they're all crooks, without really getting into the nitty gritty.
But there was another from Shan.
Yes, that's correct.
So what happened then?
In between getting your money from Ken? I overstretched a little bit with my lines and I was having a bit of trouble there and they offered it.
Harold, how did you know, Harold?
I knew Harold and Jim through an assotiate. I met them. Who's Jim Gorman. They were miners as well, so I knew them. Harold was a barrister, Jim was a geologist by profession, and they were involved with a coal mine up in the basin of the bow and basement. So they lent me the sexty gree just just to tide me over un till I got sorted out. But when you've got a body like the CMC every now and then, they got to get a scalp to justify themselves. And I was a big one. So they came for me.
And when they started this investigation like a bunch of storm troopers running around town, it was it was kind of like a an avalanche and you just couldn't stop it. And if we've got open and accountable government and people are willing to be open and accountable, this is my
challenge to the government of the day. Do you bring an independent person up from Inni State, not from Queensland, but someone from Inni State and sit down and have a look at the conduct of the CMC at the time, the conduct of the DPP and how this whole whole investigation panned out, and have a look and just analyze the evidence as it is, because this is an injustice. Now I'm not crying poor, but if it's happened to me, who else has that happened to this sort of behavior?
So I just say to the government of the day. You talk about your own credibility, you talk about upholding high standards, Well here's your chance, sunshine. Bring someone independent up. If you're not frightened of what supposedly has happened, bring someone up. Let's see what happens.
Are you trying to retry your case?
No, not at all. I don't. I have no faith whatsoever in our legal system, and coins that none at all after what I've been through, I'm not trying to retry it. All I want is people to be held accountable for their behavior, their behavior.
Why not just let it go. You've served your time fourteen years, why not just let it go.
Because it's a wrong that needs to be righted, and it's and it's a blight on our legal system and the behavior of the Crime Commission, and it's a blight on a DPP. Maybe nothing will come of it. Nothing. But I've had my say. I've had the opportunity to have my say. I've had the opportunity here to tell people my side of the story. If the government chooses not to do anything, or so be it, and they have to live with those consequences of choosing to do nothing.
Your family, you had a family meeting when you were first charged.
Yes, tell me about that. Yes, So the deal was offered to me. I've you played guilty five years to serve eighteen months. So I said to my barrister at the time, Look, I need to go home. I want to talk to the kids about this. I'm running out of money to defend myself from trials. What do I do? I didn't have enough money to go to the High Court in the end anyway, so I couldn't do that. So I go home and I sit down with the kids, Lisa, Kim, and Andrew and my son in law Harley at the time,
and I said, this is the deal. It's been offered. I want your dad to plead guilty. But Dad, we haven't done anything. You know, all the lanes are in our name, the line you've got your own lane. We've all got our lane. I haven't done anything that, so we took the view that we would put our faith in the legal system, put our faith in the in the processes. So we rejected the deal.
Do you wish you'd taken it now?
No? No, not at all.
So the fourteen years of as you've been through, it was worth it.
Well, well, it's worth it to the extent that I've always maintained and that I didn't do anything wrong, and I've paid a really heavy price for maintain. The easy option would have been to take to deal, but I would have had to live with that, so were the kids, and I couldn't do that. I just couldn't do it.
So effectively, you're saying you're innocent of any wrongdoing.
The only wrongdoing idea was an error of judgment with Ken and I, but that's not criminal.
In terms of the specifics around the lane, did Ken ever ask you for any favors? Never did you offer any favors?
No, and none was given. None, And my portfolio didn't cover any of that anyway, any of the areas that he worked in government, And there is a process within government that if a minister of the Crown contacts a department head looking for favors like that. They have an obligation to report that, so there's some checks and balances
within the system. Anyway, the ministers that were in charge of those departments of mining and all those sort of things, we're all bought at the committal hearing and my trial, and all of them said no, Gordon had no contact. There was nothing asked for, nothing given. And that's why we thought I'd be right at the end of the first trial. I would not have been charged with the second trial. If I'd went on the first trial. I don't believe for one minute I'd have been charged with
the stuff. The other stuff was robbery at the best. At the best. But they were cranky because I wouldn't take the deal. They were livered that I wouldn't take the deal.
Are you aware of any other ministers or MPs at that time that were involved in dodgy dealings?
No, I can't say. I am no, not at all.
No.
And now to the story of the roads. Throughout his political career, Gordon Nattel wore a red row bud in the lapel of his jacket every day. I'd always been curious about why now the name of the podcast is the man behind the Rose tell us about the roads, because that's what you're famous for, wearing a rose.
Yeah, yeah, I I always like to dress well.
I've always felt today's the exception. I thought, too bad. We're at the beach. You know, there's an old saying that clothes maketh the man. I always pride of myself in dressing well and having shiny shoes. A lot of people didn't notice how shine my shoes were. But anyway, so we get into parliament. I decided I'm going to wear I'm going to wear a rose. Actually the first it started out as a little carnation, but I want to a raise. So some of the boys decided to play a trick on me.
I'm sitting in Parliament one day and I see this little green grub on my cat lapel. What the hell's that? And I picked it off, throw it away. About fifteen minutes later, another one. So this went on for about two or three days. So I went to the florist that I get my rose from every day. Oh she's all apologetic, also sorry, terrible. The next day I go to it, I've changed the whole sale. I'm getting my
roses now for you from another whole statement. Oh that's nice, So I go another grub, so Henry believe it on. Henry Palache, he was the member of Parliament at the time, came up to me and he said, Gordon, do you not realize what's going on? And I said, what are you talking about? He said, your colleague Gary Fenlin has got a match box full of these little grubs. He's getting out of the garden and he's dropping in them
on your coat. So I had to go to the florist, Maya Kupa until her I'm terribly sorry I was, and told her this story. She couldn't stop laughing. Yeah, but I never paid Gary Fenlon back for that. I never.
And that's the story of the Man behind the Rose. Next time, for the final chapter, I'll be sitting down with Gordon and his kids, Lisa and Andrew to see what the future holts and how his cancer treatment is going. Do you care what people think?
No?
I don't, because in my heart of hearts, I know who I am and I know that what I've told you today and over the last few days, that that that's exactly what happened. So if people choose not to believe that that's up to them, But I have to say that's not the experience I've had from the wide in general public. They've been outstanding, outstanding.
The Man Behind the Rose podcast writer, producer and host Patrick Condren. Sound design and editing Mark Wright. Graphics by Jason Blandford. The Man Behind the Rose is a seven years production