Is Magic Cool or Cringe? 10 Brutally Honest Debates #216

They're guys. They do magic. They are the Magic Guys.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to episode 216 of the Magic Guys. To my left, I got Nick Kay. That's right, I'm Nick Kay, and joining us this week is Daddy Doug, all the way from his new movie series, Hangover 5. That's my life lately. What's up, y'all? Good to be back. Good to be back. I am suffering from a Las Vegas hangover. This is my life now. Now you're with us in that it's morning for you as well in America as it is for us in Australia.

We knew moving to Vegas would get you into the Australian rhythm of time. And now you're nocturnal. So this is perfect. I'm still adapting. Everyone here is like, don't wake me up before 2 p.m. I'm like, okay.

You know what i'm excited about i'm excited about the idea of being a plus one ordinarily someone is always my plus one when i go to events or or have tickets to something or whatever it might be there's an opportunity that you might actually need a plus two when we come to visit doug because like you know josh and i go and be in town and we need to figure out what we're gonna do no doubt yeah it's it's coming up soon my goodness i would be

happy to go back to the let's talk about matt franco's show which i just saw last night here at the link well you know what that'll that'll come up perfectly because our episode is is magic cool or cringe and you just saw what i would say is one of the pretty cool magicians of our time so i think that'll come in pretty well i think great to see everyone here live in the chat by the way one of you sent in a speak pipe so i thought we would give our audience the floor to begin today's episode.

With a question on it so we're going to throw it over to aj and see what he's up to first off love the podcasts listen religiously so thank you for that i have 90 seconds here so i'm gonna try to get my question out because it's a little bit long-winded but i am an avid connoisseur of magic books and material i'm constantly learning but with that i keep finding myself getting new material like constantly and so I'll end up performing you know some things for

a week or two weeks and then I move on and next thing I know I'm you know half a year year year and a half later I look back at some notes that I took and at tricks that I once performed that are fantastic and I've forgotten them. So I guess my question is, how do you dial in material that you know you want to consistently perform? Because I'm always...

Learning more more material trying to improve but i'm finding it somewhat detrimental because i'm not i don't have like a steadfast repertoire if that makes sense okay so how do you pick kind of your staples maybe that's a better way to put it like how do you pick your staples and then.

Create kind of sets based off of that uh anyway thanks again love the show appreciate it okay firstly like really good thought process that he has there trying to understand that like you do set as you perform and so forth can i take point on this one fellas right please do start yeah because this is kind of just like reminiscent of what i talk about in my my bible lecture which stands for basic instructions for being a leading

entertainer so it's the very first lecture i ever wrote and this is going to be a benefit to you so as far as learning stuff all the time by all means do that. I do it myself. I'm actually part of a book club where we buy a book every month and we go through the book.

We just finished doing a Steve Mayhew's book, which I read and skipped through a lot of it just because everything was, you produce the four aces and then you produce the four aces and then, and I was just like, I don't need any more four ace tricks. I know this is great. I know where it comes from. That's great. But like, I don't, I don't care for this.

I don't want to add it to my repertoire or I read through it and I go, that's nice that I learned that, but I'm never going to add that to my repertoire. So don't feel bad about adding knowledge to your mindset is the first thing I want to say. Now, when it comes to what routines you keep in your repertoire, I think it comes down to the audience. And the audience, if you want to give them the best experience, they'll give you that feedback.

So by all means, test out new material in between doing stuff. We call that hammocking, in which you'll do a really good routine that you know is very well strong. You'll hammock in between that a routine you're working on and then close with the routine that you're really, really strong with. So by all means, you still have opportunities to try stuff. But I think that to long story short, this let your like try stuff, learn it, test it on your audience, but let them dictate it.

Because I think that if you want to give them the best time, that's what you want to do.

Said like a true legend. That was fantastic. And the only thing I would sprinkle on top of that is I saw a clip of Ozzy Wynn talking to Ben Earle the other day. And Ozzy Wynn said it pretty well. He's talking about there's a difference between being an entertainer and an artist. But in this world, the entertainer is what is going to perform to the masses. And he says an entertainer is a professional surveyor.

They conduct surveys by throwing out lots of different routines and they get the results back of which ones the audience like.

And then that's what they then serve to them. So just in a shorter sentence of what Nick's saying, try lots of stuff. Just remember the stuff that gets a good reaction. Listen to your people. Don't quit playing, though.

We can always play in the in the sandbox right and learn new things but you want to keep that solid 10 routines you know however yeah there's there's something to be said right about purely you can't purely listen to the audience because we know if we just went out there with you know the five best.

Gimmicked effects that will slay like they will do really well but then we might not have any soul after a few years of doing well this is the difference between craft and art if you do if you're mimicking things you've seen if you're all your repertoire is all store-bought magic tricks and you're doing the pattern that was in the instructions you're just a craftsman or a surveyor right the artist is the one who has the unique point of view and develops

those tricks and the unique presentations and probably changes the magic moments to better benefit his audience yeah let me show some of the back of that because i was jamming with my mentor and good friend who you know also doc andrew and we were talking about this he's working my residencies are these holy moly's for me now and he was showing me this coins across that he does and there was a final phase that he did in which he was holding the coins palm up because you had it in a particular

type of clip that was like super duper angle-y and holding it to like his stomach. And it looks so weird to hold his hands in this fashion, especially when he's wearing this beautiful suit and looks a million bucks. But then he's standing like he's arthritic. It just didn't seem right. And gentlemanly now we worked on it, right? Now the routine was there, but through different learnings, we ended up polishing these routines further and further.

He ended up calling me the week after we had this jam session and said, oh my God, thank you so much for sharing that trick with me. If I hadn't experienced that little bit of knowledge, I couldn't have proved upon it. So you can always learn stuff and improve on what you already have. And once you have it, you don't have to bury it. You don't have to make this decision that you never want to do it again. Like it's always just going to be stuff that's in your pocket.

Like, or when I mean that, I mean metaphorically, in the back of your mind, when you need it, you do it. But yo, that's some good advice. Get some extra eyeballs on the material you're developing. Maybe not always a magician, you know, maybe they should be lower down. But, you know, you can find a venue to perform this stuff over and over. That's your best bet, right? That in the notebook.

Yeah yeah yeah aj thanks for the question my friend please guys send them in the speak pipes the link is in the description speakpipe.com forward slash the magic guys drop us a line and aj just you know try it's so hard as as a hobbyist magician even a pro to not get sucked into the ever-flowing churn of new effects coming out you know that's that's tough but better than not doing magic you know so you'll you'll probably some people just

do that let's not make those people feel lesser it's perfectly fine to just do nothing but learn magic your whole life you never even have to do a trick you can enjoy magic that way it's fine some some would say that's probably more like the better way to enjoy magic i mean that's the student's approach it's magic is the ultimate studious endeavor because it's endless right the rabbit hole is so deep can i also say at the back of that how envious are we as like professionals

who perform for a living i don't know about you guys but i'll speak on my behalf that as professional i so envy people who have this opportunity to just constantly be learning stuff like all the time like yeah i'm so envious but like as a professional when you've got your staples and your reputation makers you've got to make sure that you stay on point and that they're always so perfect and you really put the effort into them.

And it upsets me because I'm, trying to stay sharper and sharper, but in the same breath, sort of envious of the people who just go, I'm just learning stuff all the time and I perform it. And if it's right or wrong, or if it's not perfect, it doesn't matter. But it's just like, I envy those guys. You're still doing that. You're just finding the moments within the magic you already do to improve that. And that is so much a part of being a great magician, right?

You know, am I standing this way or am I standing this way when I do the, you know, whatever you're doing? You know what? Very good. Yeah, very good point. Because I was pretty jealous of your friend Chihan when we were at the assembly convention. Isn't he like a really successful lawyer? Is that his profession? That's exactly what he is. Yeah. So Chihan Yeo is an amazing cardsmith who by day is a property lawyer handling deals that are upwards of hundreds of millions of dollars.

And then you see him sit down with a pack of cards and he's like, the guy's got hands.

He has yeah i'm just seeing him i'm just seeing i'm just watching him do second deals as we're chatting and i'm like i got no time to effing work on second deals like i gotta make sure i can.

Get to my do my gigs and like you know win over this crowd and da da da da and you're just here you know making tons of cash not even with magic and then you can just enjoy learning good magic but to what dog's saying like it's really fun doing shows and we'll do two shows a night and in each show I'll tweak a different way of revealing a thing like for ages I was trying to find the best way to reveal the Rubik's Cube to the audience and after so many different little nuanced

tries I finally found a way where just taking a Rubik's Cube out of a thing gets a laugh when that should never have been a moment so those little tweaks are really fun. One more. I'm flushing back as we talk about one of my mentors, Cellini, and he talked about his first lesson with Slydini. Now, imagine you've ponied up a few blocks to go study with the great one, Slydini. You're in New York, you go to the studio, and you're ready to learn some Slydini magic. Where do we start?

You know where Slydini started? I remember two things Cellini talked about. One of them was this, how to walk onto a stage.

You know so that was lesson one enter the stage how are you how are you doing that and then another one was how to accept applause you know when people are being generous with their you know how do you acknowledge that it wasn't how to laugh it wasn't you know how the impasse or any of that it was you know professional moments that will make your magic better these are the kind of things we can work on plus the tricks so yeah that's so cool that's so cool

that's yeah even how to you know professionally take cards out of a box without looking.

I'm wondering how many magicians out there have thought about how they walk onto a stage, a good book for that is yeah another good book for that is steve cohen's winning the crowd he talks about that as well he's like if you're behind curtains start walking 10 steps before you get to the stage so you're already at full speed instead of seeing the audience see you slowly start walking out what about williamson's approach this is the williamson.

Doug is just tearing open a deck like a banana ripping the books apart taking out the goods inside hell yeah so then there's the williamson approach yeah i mean i've never seen anyone just be out of with the thumb just break the seal like that yeah it's pretty dope i was going to casino in biloxi and then one of the pit bosses was doing that i was like where did you learn that he's like look dude you gotta open 800 boxes a night you'd learn it too crap sure

yeah and you know what these are the things that you start focusing on when you want to kind of be in that top one percent of awesome magicians okay like these are the this is the difference that it like i always talk about like it's formula one because there's milliseconds between you and 10th place like like the time from the person in first place is like 0.64 seconds you know between that and last So you've really got to start peeling off milliseconds and just doing little

things to get better and better and polish and polish. And it comes in so many different formats, which we're coming down a rabbit hole, which is probably a little bit further away from what the question was. But these are the sorts of things we think about as we go along. So we should probably do that at some point, have a big chat about like, how do you get into the top?

Echelon. Yeah. I mean, and even just for winning over an audience, like there's like milliseconds between you seeming cool and you seeming cringe. Oh yeah. You know, you know what I'm saying? Right into this episode's theme. Can we just segue? Yeah. I, I was meant to hit the air horn, but instead I changed my voice, but we roll with it. You know what I'm saying? So today's episode we've called it. Yeah. I'm mad. I'm magicians. Cool. or are they cringe?

There's 10 questions we're going to debate and just riff on here. And we'd love to hear your thoughts in the chat, in the live chat as well. Starting with number 10, which is about our attire, our costume. So it's titled Fedora or for pass? Is what we wear outdated stage fashion that screams being try hard or should magicians dress like real humans or could it be stylized if owned with confidence? I'm going to throw it over to Doug first. He's seen many magician's attire over the time.

What say you? That actually looked really good. Actually, that was, you know, fedoras are cool if they're worn by Doug Kahn, 100%. But should they be like a staple? Like, okay, I'm a magician now. I should buy my fedora and buy my bow tie and buy my coattails. Yeah, well, you know, I think in the modern age, we can wear what we want. Like, I think this kind of started with David Blaine, you know, when he decided a t-shirt was cool.

But really, it's Robert Houdin who changed it back in the 1800s when he put on a tuxedo instead of a wizard robe with a dunce hat.

Uh yeah i you know i think it all boils down to character right it's like what image are you trying to portray your audience and what you know what costume does does that best yeah also does it does serve a purpose in some routines i mean i use a bowler's hat in in in my cups and balls routine and as a result i made it part of my my character and my costume and everything else you know nowadays i don't i've shied away from that as much but whenever i do that routine the hat

comes out you know and i tell them the mythology of the routine and how long i've been doing it for and whatever else so yeah and.

I think if you're going to do something or if it's going to be part of your costume like if you were going to be like the punk rock magician and that your jacket was covered in like bobby pins then use the bobby pins and do like a pin link type thing you know what i mean like i think things that are indigenous to your location and to your person doug do you remember what kind of attire matt franco was wearing at his show matt was in black suit the black suit had some

white stripes on the arms which i didn't really like but you know it's a creative choice that i guess because he does a lot of slight hand in the show it draws attention to that body part all black and then just white stripe along the lower part it wasn't even like everywhere just that single feature he did do a costume change midway like this that's this that's it that's so that so for example i guess this is a good starting point he so what i'm noticing is he's wearing

a t-shirt under his yeah right yeah very casual yeah he had on like a simple jewelry you know and. He changed his boots once during the show to a maroon jacket. I'm looking at David Copperfield, and I don't know. I'm seeing two different versions of Copperfield on stage. One is him in a suit, but he has no tie or anything. It's an open shirt, so he can show a bit of the chest. And then the other version, which in my memory, this is how I see Copperfield a lot.

And it's the version where he has a white t-shirt and then like a long-sleeved unbuttoned uh blue blue shirt and you know that's not your classic suited up three-piece um magician at all and uh and then you got david blaine always rocking t-shirts ozzy wind one of my favorite magicians wears a t-shirt and then it as this show right here this las vegas late night late night magic show is a great example of how you can portray magic in many characters one of them is a wrestling character he

wears a wrestling mask the shocker greg now get the name right the the mc is a boisterous comedian and comic book jacket you know bizarro is his everybody knows bizarro he's got his own thing going on the female magician was sexy and a little bit scantily clad so you know And all of them were killing it with their own point of view, using the costuming that fits their character. I think you nailed it, Doug. I think it's bringing your point of view is maybe the more important thing.

Because now that I'm looking at all of the top magicians that the layman might know of, none of them are really rocking a three-piece suit that we're used to wearing to a corporate gig where we need to match the audience and stuff.

But it's something to consider it doesn't have to be your go-to more importantly it's got to be your character and i love that i don't know why i took so long to like stop wearing a tie to gigs for me personally because i would never normally wear them and yeah yeah back in the 90s i was table hopping a brunch in a three-piece tuxedo you know fucking whole nine yards tails i'm in tails in the 90s baby i had to grow out of that i think you should look you should

look like you have something better to be is what i figured that out about eight months into that gig i'm like i gotta get rid of this thing this is horrible and then uh blue blazer it's kind of my go-to sense you know yeah no i think you work a lot with costuming and and some of your stuff is is required for some of your teamings and stuff so well yeah what are your thoughts man dude i think, stuff I do is costume dependent and I've got tuxedos, I've got sports jackets,

I've got all types of clothes to suit what I need to wear and they're all built for different purposes but I think there needs to be a level of.

Is it genuine you got to be genuine to some degree you know what i mean so i think that works really well a lot of people try to portray themselves with something that they're not and it kind of shows through if they haven't developed their character because i think your character, should be a higher version of yourself and not like a totally left of center version of yourself you know i had a conversation recently with a good friend lewis we were

jamming with him at the assembly if you don't recall who he is and you know he was talking about this routine where like you got to do it like crazy confident like super egotistical blah and i'm like but you're not that guy you're a sweetheart and you're quite shy this isn't gonna work if you do it this way you know so but yeah costume wise purpose built also the weather far out man like yeah i think we're going away from fedora hats and talking about costuming it

might be worth pressing on podcast is going to be what to wear as a magician yeah exactly let's change the title let's press on a number nine so we don't get a whole 10 minutes let's go good like the thing is all of these questions could be there an episode you know so you're really getting the goods jam-packed yeah number nine number nine is saying pick a card cringe now and then the notes on this are is it overused and just unimaginative or is it a classic line that sets up the effect clearly,

Can you reinvent the line creatively for yourself? Okay, so sometimes I've seen guys spread the deck to the spectators and just go, okay, do the thing, do the thing. Come on, do the thing. And it's like, you know what to do, do the thing. That's right.

That's kind of interesting because you're playing on the fact that they know, what you would say yeah like and i think there's nothing wrong with saying this trick starts like all card tricks do pick a card pick any card i think there's nothing wrong with that i think that it's it's got a nice ring to it i would suggest this not only is there not any not anything wrong with it but that people want that experience from a magician a close-up

you don't have to give it to them and there's reasons not to and that's fine but people love to be the person that gets to pick a card, any card. It is unfortunate that removing a selection from the pack is generally a dumb idea, but we'll talk about that another day. Yeah, I mean, I guess the question is probably because you get some people that are like, I've seen this one, you know, because they're like, oh, the same card trick is probably what you're going to do. Which, you know.

Alluding, I do it that way. I say I have to do this at least once a show, sir, go ahead, pick a card, any card. And it's a nice moment, you know, people can relate to that and they have, it's a good grounding point and a great experience for the person that's into picking cards.

So before we decide whether it's cringe or not, I have one thing I'd like to add, which is I typically don't let anyone choose a card with, with the way I perform just because I'm everyone's drinking and cards get wet and tables are wet and their hands are wet from holding drinks, et cetera.

So I just do a lot of like say stop and I'll dribble I'll dribble cards or I'll riffle through cards I do a lot of like and the idea is is that when if I'm dribbling cards from hand to hand whenever they say stop you stop the dribble and then you've got a nice clear visual indicator of everyone's seeing it and you can engage with every single person in that moment as opposed to asking someone to take the card and show everyone because sometimes that person's a dickhead

and they don't actually show everyone they just look at themselves and they and they hide it and and And then you have to put the card back once it's out. That's my problem with it. Once it's in the wild, now what happens? Do they put it back? Do you grab the card back? And it's just not efficient in a working environment. And it keeps all eyes on you and it allows you to connect with every single person participating. Because you might see somebody just looking over their

shoulder, but, oh, come closer, friends, so you can see it. Can you see better now? Come and join us. You can now welcome people into your circle that you were entertaining at this corporate event, for example. And then, you know, you put in your hand, everyone saw the card, say yes, great. And you can get into the routine. So is it cringe? I'm going to say no, it's classic.

Thoughts? Okay. I'm going to play the advocate here and say it's a little cringe because we could be more artistic about our routines than saying pick a card. Because then we could vary. We could do three card routines and them all feel different. But they'll feel the same if we every time go, now pick a card. Ah, now you pick a card. And that's something to think about is one of the main reasons why I learn a stack.

So I can just say to someone, name any card. And now I've skipped the entire process of pick one, put it back in. They just named it. And now I can do something with it. Even if it's whatever card trick you're thinking of right now at home, listening to this, I could now still go into it. Okay. So there is one for not cringe, one for a little cringe, the deciding vote.

Doug, is it cringe or not? I say, own the cringe. You're going to say it. Bang the gavel, that is cringe. Let's move to number eight. Hell yeah.

Number eight. Are magic conventions cool or cult-like? Do they echo chambers and the everyone's a star vibe?

Or are they cool community building and inspiring do conventions help push magic forward question mark thug uh i could say yes to all those things man what is this multi-prong question that we're doing another episode now i know magic magic conventions are the best they're all the above man great place to connect with the community great place to learn stuff and yeah if you're an egotistic jerk off great place to be a show off everyone will watch you do your thing and they'll talk

about you like i am right now but go ahead worst thing in magic is an egotistical magician i see you i see you watching me right now yeah i think it's well yeah whatever you want the convention to be it will be that it's probably what it is yeah but i love them essentially we need them like yeah it's the one place Eric Leclerc when he came on it's he's like it's the one place where you can still go and see the

like brick and mortar effect, like an actual setup of magic effects to buy. It's not online. You know, it's so rare that we get to be around other performers that much. Yeah. But then, yeah, you will see the show-offs or the people that are there because they want you to see them there. It's all those things, but it's essentially, it's great. So my vote would be, it's cool. It's a cool cult, you know, join. What do you say?

Yeah, look, I think it's cool because, you know, anything that's going to help propagate forward in a good way is obviously very important. When you're at a convention, you're in the dealer's room, you're seeing all these products, most possibly for the first time. And then you have this beautiful opportunity to like purchase them months, if not sometimes a year before they actually hit the shelves of every other brick and mortar.

So that's a really good place to be. You also get to sit in on the lectures, which I think are very valuable and be part of the panels and ask questions and, you know shake hands with a hero you know like we wouldn't have the pleasure of setting up so many friendships and you know like there's nothing more wonderful than getting in an elevator and someone turns to you and goes hey man aren't you in a band and I go oh I listen you know.

You know so I think that that's important and community in magic is important because it helps keep us in check and I also think that there's probably some very small and I it's almost unnoticeable, but there are some, groups within the magic community that are really just themselves. Like, there's a lot of ways to enjoy magic conventions as part of a cult.

For example, you might be a kid's performer and go to a kid's magic convention, or this week in Las Vegas, Trick Supply is exhibiting at the Magic Collector's Summit. It's a convention at the Orleans Hotel where the Magic Live is, but this is for people who collect magic. So, you know, And if you're into collectibles, well, there's your convention. If you're into close-up magic, you might go to trips, you know, in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Yeah. So you can find your own cult to enjoy. It is cultish. Yeah. And so say if it's cool or cringe, I'm going to say conventions are cool. Josh. Cool. Cool. They're cool. Hey. Number seven. You guys know that? Oh, no. Doug's cringe. He just left the chat. He'll be back, I'm sure. Oh, geez. Well, we'll keep it moving until he gets back here. Because actually, probably good, too, that he's not here for this one.

Number seven, are Invisible Decks and Spongeballs just lazy? Are they overused beginner props, or are they still strong when performed with intention? The question is, do classics deserve more respect or retirement?

Whoo lots of loaded ammo here jeez we did have a chat one time about retiring, magic old magic remember that was a really fun episode we did not talk about the invisible deck in that episode no ha when was the last time nick you would have performed with the classic invisible deck gimmick itself i know you have your own beautiful version which is what maybe an artist should do but when did you last use an invisible deck honestly i bought one in the first year of me doing magic and

i never performed it ever right okay um yep myself i have one invisible deck i own it's a bicycle deck and it's the box is getting so tattered because it just lives in a box somewhere that i can get if i need to yeah but don't use okay when was the last time you did a classic sponge ball routine I do not do sponge interesting I also, couldn't tell you where my sponge balls are right now.

When I would do gigs I used to keep them just in my back pocket in case there was kids there yep and, That was before I got my hands on the lucky ladybug. And now that's my preference if there are kids there. Or if there were just overly drunk people or people from a different country that I couldn't communicate with. Spongeballs is an easy way to show them something in a particular environment. But yeah, I don't perform spongeballs either.

So the question is, without Doug here to explain why they should not be cringe, i think maybe to us they're for us they're they're cringe wow okay can i all right they let me say something in defense of that then just for the sake of indifference of this conversation yeah the reason why i will never slander the invisible deck is because it is probably the best car trick ever made okay like name a car trick better than that probably you know we'd be

like a personal preference of saying nothing beats a con that's the most magical card shit you can ever do and like you're right that is probably the most magical card stuff you can do i agree with that yeah but i'm always reminded of what i heard in the mark mason lecture when because as he he produces products and the first thing they said to him was mark.

I have an idea for a trick he says is it better than invisible deck and if the answer is no he's like don't talk to me so and so that if we go to the chat real quick too we got alex saying if it ain't broke you know why why change what you're doing we got tim saying it's all about the performance which i very strongly like that comment scott link is saying it depends on this i like you know what this might be why you and i don't do these two effects it depends on

statistically if they've ever seen many magicians live and that's something i do try and avoid i try and avoid mainstream effects so that someone can happily watch me do magic and then when they see someone else they can still enjoy that mainstream effect if they're doing it you know if they there's a problem if an audience is always seeing every magician do invisible deck and double cross you know that's a problem so i think that's a great one it depends how much magic the audience is is seeing

alex is then saying because then you have to ask this about professor's nightmare. Cut restored row matrix book tests fair enough okay so yeah great great questions here i think if we were to reframe the question, Let's just, let's just, is it fair in saying the question wasn't more so about those two props, but more so about classics? Is that fair to sort of synopsisize that? The end question is, yeah, do classics deserve more respect or retirement?

I believe the classics are classics for a reason. Never should anybody retire something like, what's a classic song? My Way by Sinatra, written by Paul Anka.

That song will should never ever be retired and never sung again okay like that is an absolute banger and it needs to be around forever candle in the wind by elton john needs to be around forever whatever from the beatles like classics are classics for a reason man they've got to they've got to stick around for because they are classics one and like imagine saying to someone that like you can't watch the matrix you know like that's a that's a classic film now you know what i mean

You've got to watch The Matrix or Die Hard. Like, come on. Classics are classics for a reason. They're not cringe and they need to stick around. All right. Hear, hear. Agreed. This is going well. I would say they're a little cringe if everyone's doing just that. I think it's the difference between being the entertainer and the artist. The artist should learn them, use them for when they need to, but then quickly try to come with your own versions that...

You know, help you stand out. Yeah, like Snow White. You know what I mean? Like when they did Snow White again. Exactly like Snow White. Yeah. So much. They should not have picked her. It was so much better. That's funny. All right, here we go. Number six, counting down.

Oof. Is magician voice a crime? The tones and fake mystery and fake elegance cringe, or is the vocal control and presence that magicians use, does it elevate the act? And then the challenge is, can you perform in your natural voice and still command the room? And we welcome back Doug. Welcome back, Doug. To this chat. Check one thing. I'm on the phone. How do I sound? Okay? Sound great, bud. You're sounding great. Good stuff. All right, cool. Back to normal.

Just a reminder, everyone, this is the Magic Guys Live. The Magic Guys Live. This is unreheathed, unedited. This is just straight up raw dogging. Heck yeah. Yeah. So we're kind of glad you weren't here for the last question, Doug, because we're talking about Invisible Deck and Sponge Balls. But now we're on to question six. Worst tricks ever. Excellent.

So we're talking about the magician voice, the voice that magicians put on when they go on stage to like, you know, create mystery and, you know, have this sort of elegance to their way they speak. And the question is, Is that cringe or is that elevating the act? And then the underlying challenge is, can we perform in our natural voice and it still commands the room? Dun, dun, dun. You want to go first, Doug? Because I have very strong opinions about this.

I'll briefly say, we've kind of mentioned this already, it's be an exaggerated version of yourself. That would include speaking in a more exaggerated version and probably louder. That's my thought. Well said. Hmm. Well said. I think it's funny. I'm trying to think of, there was this time where I was chatting to a guy who did magic part-time and we're chatting like Aussies. We're like, yeah, mate, yeah, blah, blah, blah. And this, that, and the other.

And oh yeah, I love that effect and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, can you show me a trick? And he's like, oh yeah, there is one I know. Here we go. And my girlfriend's next to me. He's like, all right, here we go man could you take out any three cars you want okay now please do not let me see them and you know what and he went into the weirdest performance of my freaking life you know.

I'm gonna can i show you a trick absolutely all right yeah like man it was so weird like it was so weird and i was like bro none of this is authentic like you don't talk like that i've just spent 10 minutes with you as a bogan you can't now switch to to um derren brown you know.

So yeah that was a bit let me throw it at you carissa hendrix plays a character called lucy darling and her accent that she's developed over the years like it doesn't exist she's purposely done an amalgamation of several characters and we should bring her on the show to talk about this to make this particular accent and no one knows where she's from she could be dutch she could be french it could be so many different things you would never know but it works and it's this beautiful accent that's

like everyone should be able to identify with it in some capacity or another so i you know it needs to be done well i got a friend of mine called davide kaufman and he's that's what he calls himself but he's he's italian his italian is all get out like he was performing and somebody talks it's very like you know everything's like i must pay for the tosti or pick a card like it's like this thing he finished his set and they were like i really liked your show but like i

think that you're lay off the accent it's a bit racist and he's like but this is how i talk what do you mean it was just being himself so that's funny so that being said it's obviously the audience can be perceiving things in such a way and i think this wouldn't be a problem if we went so upset about, you know. Social warrior type folk, you know, pronouns, the whole hamburger, like this is all stuff that now has come into the equation of us addressing audiences.

You can never, it's almost very scary to say, may I have your name miss? You know, I, I don't gender, I gender nobody, bro. I just go, and what's your name friend? And if I call a woman, anything, I call her your majesty. What's your name, your majesty? Because that could be either or, right?

But it's just the, the means of me setting a status in which saying that like, I'm here to serve you, your majesty this is my job i'm just a jester and you call anyone that they go okay cool like we've created a standard here he's sort of acknowledging me that's the important thing.

I've heard of scenarios where a friend of mine who does tim ellis tim ellis does a routine but he opens his show he he's a mad hatter and he's an amazing mad hatter and he gets on stage good evening boys and girls boys and girls men women blah blah and beautiful creatures of all denominations right it's like this really cute long thing and the sound tech was like queer and said thank you for making me feel included then i had another friend who was queer who said don't say

that it's the rugatry and it makes us third class citizens because you mentioned because you mentioned us last and it's like i right for real child are you for real and the kid was young you know what i mean i just said like come on child come on come on like yeah you're at.

A magic show kid like yeah but look did not deter too much away from the the question of cringe or not cringe let me let me finish my point right so the point is that erroneous of like how you say it right i think it's okay to have a different tone when you do say things i have many years of vocal training because i used to be in a band hey it's been a while i don't have any i didn't even prepare a shot for that one now because of that when i when i'm on stage my

voice booms a lot more and i speak a certain way but when i'm in a close-up setting talking to a kid what's your name little one oh this is evie everyone say hi evie you know it's polite it's the same way that I'll get on the phone. I'll be like, all right, shut up, shut up, shut up. Honeyk speaking, you know, and I have a different tone for when I speak. So I don't think it's wrong to change your delivery. But if you're going to have a script that you speak to, you know, like, I don't know.

Yeah, I think it is cool. I think play with your voice. Absolutely. Don't be inauthentic if you're still playing yourself on stage. If you're playing a character, great. Like, by the way, how have we not had Carissa Hendricks on here yet? I'm making that this week's task.

But I think it's cool. What do you guys think? yeah so i'm going to finish by saying that i don't think it's cringe and i think that you should adjust to your audience when i perform for high society my vernacular is very different because it's my job to be a professional communicator and to approach him in that way when i perform for all the guys who are tradies and the plumbers and the guys building our tunnels i'm definitely yeah none yeah nah definitely

yeah nah yeah nah for sure bloke yeah come on bloke choose a car bloke you know go mate. Be dynamic love it not cringe I'm gonna switch to that helium voice Norbido's been using that's my new well if you use my Amazon link and purchase the Rodecaster Pro 2, what you you too can sound like this alright that's a good one it is a good one hey I like it alright it's a good one It's cool.

Number five, do TikTok magicians make magic look lame? Are they using an overuse of cuts, stooges, and acting shocked? Or is it the new platform, new audiences, and fresh creativity? The debate is, are viral tricks good for the art? Perfect timing for Doug to be on here for this. I'm going to just say one thing. I don't know if it's good for the art, but I do think it's good for the scene. you, Doug, I can see a whole episode here in his head right now. Yeah.

I don't, you know, yeah, I don't think it's good for the art. I think most of the content that's even popular is very cringe. I don't know. Yeah, it's like the ones that's viral aren't the ones that we would go and watch at a show.

Like i don't feel like the right top artists are the ones becoming like the super super viral it's what like i don't know it's it's i'm thinking like pete firman right now is making some great content that goes viral pretty regularly and it could be like it could be cringe but he transcends it a little bit plays it out i would think anyone watching one of his videos would be happy actually that's a great point yeah he's the right person for doing magic well on tiktok and in person And obviously,

you've had great success as well, building off TikTok and off YouTube. And also this, honestly, timing was great, you know, and I guess part of the deal is you got to know when the timing's right. And if you want something, go get it when it is. But like the content that I put out, mostly cringe. Like I can't even stand to watch most of that crap. So, yeah.

Well, throwing to our audience, I mean, Alex has said, Alex Lamb has said, based on those parameters, no Stooges, fake hot girlfriend, reactions and edits, that stuff equals cringe. Yeah. Yeah. Genuine content. Like, Josh, you post a lot of it. You're doing material in the real world. You showcase those moments. Carissa is blowing up doing the same thing with, you know, clips of her audience work. And this is a great way to share your magic.

As though people would be seeing it in the wild. It's really hard to say, I'm going to be a TikTok magician and make a magic trick for the camera. Usually it's just like... Would you agree? It's like, it's good for the art if you're just betraying your art form and not trying to mold to what might go viral with the overreactions and the... Yeah, it's good.

Always good to be true to yourself and try to make good creative stuff yeah the other thing that's annoying too is the clips of mine that will go viral are not they're the ones that like show a little bit of maybe i can see some of the method like they're they're not the ones that are just like really entertaining it's always the ones that are like i slipped up a tiny bit and then boom half a million views i'm like I think in general, on social media or even online viewing like YouTube,

people want education. So that's part of that alert. They're going to learn something that benefits the viewer. They share it with a friend because it benefits them. And rarely, I think, do the people making these videos approach it with that frame of mind. Like, I'm going to give my viewer something to take away from this. Besides how great I am at the back post. Maybe, and maybe the last thing I'll say to this is the new FISM category for online content.

Maybe that helps in some way with giving a direction for doing, you know, good content, as Doug would say. Yeah. You know, Tim Askin just referenced Jackie Yu. And I think Jackie does some of the best stuff you've ever seen. So do I think that, look, everyone can do something wrong, right? Like everyone can be like, I'm going to open a restaurant and be like, this food is awful. Okay. I'm going to do magic. You're doing it awful.

I, I don't think it should be stopped. I don't think it's entirely bad, but I think that because it's in its adolescence that hopefully that it doesn't get worse. And hopefully with things like FISM and like amazing people who create stuff like the Jackie use of the world, the, the Alex Boyer, Jesus Christ, his stuff, Dennis, Liam, sorry. Yes. Sorry. I misbroke. Uh, Dennis came like his thing with the mirror.

Jesus christ like it is that stuff yeah like i watched that and i think to myself like where do you even read that where do you even read that stuff to come up with it like that is so good it hurts me so that stuff as far as the art form goes i'm gonna say hell yeah and then all the stuff to do with exposure and all that malakia i'm gonna say cringe and agree with alex lamb on that one.

I think this, let me say, even if you're producing cringe content, the process of doing so is beneficial because you're going to try a little harder to get this thing right. I don't know that a lot of magicians even try that hard to get it past the mirror. You watch yourself in the mirror, you say it looks pretty good, but if you actually go to the links that you're going to put something on video for social media, you're probably going to rehearse it a little more.

And so, you know, if you like doing it, maybe one day you'll be really good at it and just become a better magician in the process so i think that's okay and it's not harming anything because no one's going to see those bad videos you know a couple hundred people might see them it's not going to matter although i i just had one that i hate my hate my first million as far as a real goes did you know i did yeah yeah what's what did it what's the banger you know what it was,

exposure do scullers lucky ladybug that was it that's the video.

I thought it was your coins across that was going to hit a mil that did half a mil I think what the actual shout out to do scullers lucky ladybug it got me a million views doing it at a local lady it's a live performance of an effect where I'm sure the person is reacting wonderfully to the trick and that's what I'm talking about Everything I've done where I'm to screen and I've really polished it up and I've set my lights properly and I've spent half a day trying

to get it right and worked on it for weeks.

Couple of thousand views something where somebody who who's damn near has parkinson's and can't even hold the camera straight and shake shake shake they're polite enough to film it and send it to my socials which i then repost and it gets a million views so is this on tiktok you're referring to i'm talking about instagram because i'm looking on instagram and your lucky ladybug has, 4 000 views at least the one with the kid at tom but the one million viewed video is the one

that's oh my mistake my mistake i'm seeing it now i'm with the lady oh this one here yeah okay okay wow lucky ladybug at a corporate event boom a million views congrats man that's do scale of magic.com go there buy it and then buy everything else their whole catalog is great yeah real good far out that's crazy something to be said as well about you doing something that viewers wouldn't have seen on a video probably before.

Love it. Number four. Is it cool to pretend you have magic powers, like real powers?

And the debates here, do the viewers roll their eyes at the fake mysticism or when presented as theater, is it powerful? And then the question is, how do you walk the line between mystery and make believe it's not cool there i said it.

Dude it's it's interesting because you know you you see someone like copperfield and you go this is this is magic this is real magic like you know it's like yeah it's like this is crazy i don't know beauty beauty is in the eye of the beholder as i was talking with my wife last night she can't stand the goat where i was like you want to go see copperfield instead of that she's like no yeah i can't stand the way he does magic yeah i

had a friend who's not a magician at all and went to vegas saw copperfield saw chris angel and could not stop raving enough about angel and his wife got bored of copperfield they're like what is this this is a kid this is kitty like, you know, the way he's like. And so, yeah, you're right. Eye of the beholder. He's sort of legendary status now. So we, I feel like we see a show because of, you know, all the stuff he's done before. Because he's still going...

The magic in that show speaks for itself so like the performance okay you might have a good night might have a bad one you're gonna love the magic though yeah and here's the thing i think that there is like i saw chris angel show too and i became a fan after watching it like this is many years ago now i thought it was unbelievable and it was david penn who told me to to see it he goes the best show there the reason i liked chris angel

show so much is because there was a huge level of personality in it which added to the already amazing magic which i thought was really good so for me that level was great and there's a little there's something wonderful about when you experience a show for example i've i've done a bunch of gigs in which we've had to entertain the vips of large-scale concerts so we have bands like queen katie perry pink we did a whole tour from and then

you see their shows live and what i took away from watching these people that you know especially something like katie perry which i was not a fan of but then you go watch their show. And all of a sudden you're like you're a fan because they're so cool and they're so lovable and they're so lovely like on the stage and to their audience and everything else so all of a sudden I go like, I think Katy Perry's cool. Then she comes back from planet, you know, from a little planet of operation.

And it's, and all the reports now say that her show is, is, is awful. And, and then no one should go and watch it. Like her performance is so bad. And I'm like, how did that happen in the space of three years? You know? So yeah.

I think what is coming to mind right now, and I'm just going to end with my opinion by saying that there's nice when there's a level of genuine personality injected into your routines and a bit where they see you perform and they can tell the type of person who you are and they like who that person is.

So I think that that's a nice place to be if you're going to be a performer so the whole fake bravado and I've met so many people who aren't this but then tell me I want to be the debonair type magician and I want to wear the expensive suit and be able to talk very eloquently and it's like you can barely string together a sentence nor have you ever read a book it's so disingenuous I just don't think that's going to be your character but give

it a crack it'll take you a while to get that character right but it's.

Going to be cringe for a long long time unless you reach carissa hendrix levels of character building so i'm gonna end by saying cringe and after nick gave me that advice i've been trying hard ever since yeah let me say this 99 cringe but the one percent doing it right are the best performers in our art well said yeah amazing amazing so look we're almost out of time so what i'm what i'll do is on instagram i'll put up a poll in our stories

for each of the the full 10 questions so you can see the other three questions on there as well and you can vote yes or no is it cringe because the underlying overall factor is is magic cool or cringe at the end of the day, all these questions we're saying is sort of alluding to that.

And I mean, Doug kind of nailed it. Like a lot of it can be cringe, but the ones that are doing it right can make it seem cool. But overall verdict, is magic cool or cringe? I would say if I had to really put it in a category, I wouldn't give it the cool category, but I also wouldn't give it the cringe category. I would give it like. As a person walking into a party and being a magician, I would call it the quirky fun category. It's like quirky cool. It's like how nerds are cool now.

It's like sort of in that realm, like we're doing really odd, fun things that people love us for it, but it's not like we're cool, you know, at least not for my character. And so I would say in my world, magic comes across as very quirky and fun. That's what I'll put down to for me. Doug, what would you say in the land of magic? Yeah, you know, I would kind of lean towards cringe for the average, you know, joke. If this were a worldwide poll, I would think most people would be like, magic, huh?

But yeah, I think you're right. We're nerdy cool. Yeah. What do you think, Nick? I'm going to tell you two quick stories.

I remember going to my mechanic one time and he saw a deck of cards on the dashboard and he was like what's the deal with that and I said I'm a magician showed him a trick at the end of it he said I was having the worst day the worst day and now I can't stop smiling I think that's pretty cool 15 years ago I was performing and this dude watched my show on the street and he says I'm suffering from depression. And this is the first smile I've had in eight months. That's pretty cool. Magic is cool.

Thanks for listening. It's time for us to disappear now. But we'll see you again on the next episode of The Magic Guys.