Dr. Brandon Crawford: Hey everyone. Welcome back. So basically we had some amazing ideas that just popped up. This is going to be an impromptu discussion. We're really talking about neural development, and specifically, attachments. So this was great. We just shot a podcast. We have Christian Hughes here occupational therapist within the clinic, founding member of the practice, just an amazing person. And you definitely want to listen to the podcast that she just recorded with us, but let's dive into this concept of attachment and neurological development and how this really has a very, intimate interplay with who we become and then how we treat people how we think right?
Kristin Hughes: Yeah
Dr. Brandon Crawford: So what are your initial thoughts on this?
Kristin Hughes: Oh, okay. Well, I'm a home birth and mama Oh, yeah that I know my
Dr. Brandon Crawford: wife shot your birth, she photographed it
like
Kristin Hughes: the importance of a baby, you know, if possible, when it first comes out to have touch to hear the your the moms or the caregivers heartbeat to be able to feel the rhythm of a breath.
And what that does just to set their entire nervous system and to cause there to be bonding within that. And then of course, I can't talk about not primitive reflexes. So, and even the primitive reflex of finding the breasts and the rooting reflex and, you know, the crawling reflexes that kick in with that.
And And so the importance of touch, you know, when there's, when a baby's getting just even caressed, right, there's different T cells in the body that help release oxytocin.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely.
Kristin Hughes: For that baby. So it's crazy to think about even if you just look at just taking just touch for development and what it does for the brain.
You know, when we treat patients, right, we have patients that come in, their eyes. Do not work together. They do not converge diverge. They can't focus. They can't track. What's one of the first things that we see, they start to have focus.
Kristin Hughes: Oh, for sure. They start to like, the parents would be like, Oh, they're looking at me.
Their eyes will start going. What are we giving them during our treatments? Especially those type of kiddos. We are doing vibration. We're doing soft touch. We're doing deep touch. We're doing whole body vibration. We're doing vibration in specific areas, right? We're doing like, like slight caressing of their skin.
We are integrating. The sensory components of their skin, that's actually integrating the brain that then brings in the eyes,
Dr. Brandon Crawford: right?
Kristin Hughes: That's without us even totally focusing on just like their eye movement.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely,
Kristin Hughes: but the power of touch is Huge.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. Yes. An intentional touch.
Kristin Hughes: An intentional touch.
Yes. That's right.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely.
Kristin Hughes: Yeah.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: And, you know, my, my mind goes to Dr. Stephen Porge's work on the polyvagal theory and Lou Cosolino's work. Who's a neuropsychiatrist out of Pepperdine. He's written a few books on this specific topic. And to read such an influential figure that is just highly regarded in the field talk about how your attachment style, right?
So how you as a baby bonded with your mom, with your dad, with your siblings, with your Sets the stage for your vagal tone, which has everything to do with social engagement,
Kristin Hughes: stress
Dr. Brandon Crawford: response, gut function, organ function, hormonal health, all these things, right? Sets the stage for that. Sets the stage for mental health.
Sets the stage for cognitive flexibility, right? So, if we're not acknowledging, right, that we are mammals, we are birthed, We, and I don't want to step on toes, but we're not designed. For several reasons to then be placed somewhere separate, right? We're not, we're not designed now. There's circadian implications that you describe something very important.
The heartbeat. Yeah.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Right. When you're born, you naturally should not have this circadian rhythm. You have genetics that will start to kick in and develop circadian. Rhythms, but you don't have that vagal tone. You don't have those, the suprachiasmatic nucleus set yet. You don't have all those things. Where do you get it?
Kristin Hughes: You're designed to co regulate off. Of your caregiver.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's not, here's the thing, that's not our opinion. This is how we are designed. This is how our cells are designed, this is how our brain, our nervous system is designed. If we don't get that, you will see dysregulation. You will see dysregulation.
You will see abnormal sleeping patterns, right? Now, I, I understand that there are reasons why some people may not
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah, I understand that breastfeeding can be a challenge for people, and I've even had a social worker tell me, look, you don't want a kid breastfeeding on someone that's using drugs because those drugs are getting into the baby.
I understand those exist. Those situations, I would argue, are outliers. And, if at all possible, we should really be considering the importance of developing these attachment styles from birth.
Kristin Hughes: Yes.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Because they have heavy implications in neural development, mental health and performance, cognitive flexibility, vagal tone, all the things.
Self
Kristin Hughes: regulation.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes.
Kristin Hughes: Yeah. I mean, yeah, you know, we, I've always looked at it too, like even co sleeping puppies. What do they do? They are all on top of each other when they're sleeping. You know, my baby is sleeping next to me and constantly touching me. I mean, a foot has to be touching me or a hand has to be touching me.
But even while they're sleeping, then their brain is still getting developed within the, you know, the co regulation of it, being able to regulate the breath, being able to regulate the heartbeat, being able to regulate the brain patterns on those brain waves. It's interesting. I feel like when I first had my baby, even I had studied development, like I had studied attachment, you know like, that's what I used to do back when I was working with autism, we would re invent and help the parents be able to like, we have an attachment with the child because with autism, right?
What happens is that attachment, Not from the parent standpoint, even, but from the child standpoint, it gets derailed. And so the feedback system, the feedback loop gets derailed. And so the parents don't even know how to create that attachment back. And so we would go back from a developmental standpoint of attachment.
Of even like co regulating breath together and co regulating, you know, maybe not necessarily, you can't do the heartbeat per se, but like even, you know, having them close and using touch and all these different things. And so I remember when I had my baby first, I didn't like actually realize how much within our society it is taught to take your baby and place them somewhere else to sleep.
Okay. But then they're missing out on being on top of you and on feeling and hearing the sounds and how much their own heart rate regulates off of yours.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah, absolutely. And
Kristin Hughes: I don't even remember like being able to find that within like the normal books that you just pick up or that are just given to you.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: I literally said that to someone the other day. I'm like, show me in well written textbooks where that's what we should do. But based on neurophysiology,
not because of an opinion, show me where that makes sense for neural development. Because the argument may be, well, the mom needs better sleep or you don't want to roll over on the baby or, you know, whatever it may be.
But again, going back to circadian biology, if the mom's having trouble sleeping, we need to look at how is a mom living? Is she getting outside in the morning? Is she getting enough movement? Is she adequately fueling herself? Is she you know, not eating before, you know, a certain time period before bed, three hours before bed?
All those things are going to help to set circadian biology, especially when she's eating light exposure, movement, all of those things, right? When you have a baby, yes, you need a period of time of rest and recovery again. So I'm not saying go outside and do high intensity training,
Kristin Hughes: correct? But also as a parent, then to know those things to be able to do them.
Right. Right. But we really are, as a parent, you are setting up your child's emotional regulation per how our emotional regulation is.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely.
Kristin Hughes: And so as a parent, the more that we can work on our own emotional regulation, circadian rhythm, you know, resetting it. We can reset our child's.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes.
Kristin Hughes: And then we can create a much more pleasant people to be around because we can handle stress better.
They can handle stress better. Right. And also, you know, the more that we work on our own stress responses, you're actually teaching your child, baby, infant, toddler, kid, teenager, their own stress responses and how to handle it.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Right. But if they're not learning it from you, they have to learn it somewhere.
Kristin Hughes: Yes. And where is that going to be?
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Exactly. Where are they going to get it from? How are they going to gain regulation within the nervous system? Because The nervous system is really concerned with safety and efficiency. So that child's default in development will be, how can I be safe? If I'm not with my mom, if I'm not with my dad, I have to develop safety mechanisms.
So sometimes those safety mechanisms may look bad once that kid grows up. They may be dysfunctional. They may, right? Some of these social cues may be off. Okay. Based on their attachment styles.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah, and I guess something important to note is attachment styles can change it because that was actually something within this field for a long period of time.
They're like, well, this is your attachment style. This is how you connected or didn't connect with your parents. So deal with it, develop strategies around it, know that you're going to have these problems, but you can actually change the styles, right? You, you already talked about it.
Kristin Hughes: And
Dr. Brandon Crawford: I think that's something that, that everyone needs to understand.
Kristin Hughes: Also knowing that like being almost cognitively aware of it, right? Because how your attachment was when you were born with your caregivers, Your parents is actually when you have your own kids, what you reach when you go back to naturally,
Dr. Brandon Crawford: right? Default
Kristin Hughes: default.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yeah.
Kristin Hughes: But if you are aware that this is the importance of it, then you can actually reset that for you.
And then your children and the next generation.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yep. It's interesting to note emotional traumas. will be inherited through our vagal system.
Kristin Hughes: Yes.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Right?
Kristin Hughes: Yes.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: So, that is a huge strategy. You know, we talk a lot about the vagus nerve, the vagal systems. And again, I mentioned Dr. Porges, the polyvagal theory. And that's a big part of our clinical strategies is utilizing various aspects of that polyvagal theory and trying to acknowledge as someone in, That early stage dorsal vagal, the sympathetic tone, the ventral vagal and developing strategies around that so that we can change attachment styles.
We can develop a vagal tone. We can do all these things, right? Very, very important to acknowledge that work. But yeah, just so interesting and influential.
Kristin Hughes: It is. And then even speaking of this, you know, for traumatic brain injuries or. Children are like, you know, things, traumatic brain injuries or anoxic brain injuries.
The importance of going back and touching.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes. That's a good concept.
Kristin Hughes: Constantly. Right? Run with
Dr. Brandon Crawford: that a little bit. Constantly touching. Constantly
Kristin Hughes: like when you're talking to them, you know, rubbing their back or their shoulder or their arm, right? And giving them different types of touch.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Right. We talk about all the time, like, Hey, the brain has this blueprint for development.
But we don't talk about this. I like this. I like that. I like. Okay. Sorry. No, you're
Kristin Hughes: good. But you know, it's like, you know, you're, you're instead of just taking them in and out of their seat. Like before you take them out, just taking your hands and running it down their arms, you know, and greeting their body and giving their body that input and that touch first and, and just finding ways to do that.
Kristin Hughes: You know for a team Lou code for minds, I ended up doing a speech actually about touch and that was like my part within it. I found myself like those couple of weeks, just like, While my baby was nursing, just actually like stroking her back and the, you know, like I know the Golan and the reflexes and so I'm doing it with that purpose too, but just stroking her arms, like going just up and down with things like just soft touch, moving the hairs in her skin, you know, and what that does within the development and the attachment is like huge and it's so simple.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Absolutely. Interesting to hear. To discuss that, because if we're treating someone and we have these different phases of care, sensory systems, primitive reflexes, postural reflexes, core stability, vestibular system, eye movements, cognition, and we acknowledge, okay, here's a, I don't know, 10 year old, and they had this brain injury and, you know, they're, they've regressed back to a neurological age of, you know, Eight months, right?
We know that because there's these reflexes are present. They should integrate by this age, et cetera. And at eight months old, well, how do you treat that child? They, we do have to go back and start thinking through attachment styles and what you just said. We don't just go here a month old eat.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: or hey you know, I'm done with you now go do whatever I'm over here like where and I'm not saying parents take that approach I'm just saying I'm being kind of harsh just to kind of deliver the the message, right?
Kristin Hughes: You go through the motions, right? Because you have all these things you have to do all these Lists and it's a lot more now because you have this right but even just taking the time to slow down
Kristin Hughes: Yeah, and you know Let them be able to regulate your breath, you know, even the importance of breathing, I think, as a parent out loud and taking a deep breath and letting it out and doing it again and taking a deep breath and letting out and letting your child see you do that, it's, it actually, like, resets their nervous system and the importance of that.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: It does.
Kristin Hughes: And so even just as a parent. You know, taking those deep breaths out loud giving more touch to them. It's big.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: It is big. And maybe we'll see, you know, if you're doing these strategies at home, you know, maybe you're working on reflexes and, you know, with the help of a clinician or whatever, you're navigating this brain injury try some of this.
Just remember when that person was. Five, six, seven, eight months old and how you treated them, them, them, right. Add more caressing and touching and talk intentional talking. And you know, those things do matter to you because those parts of the brain are redeveloping.
Kristin Hughes: Yeah. And you can turn on so many different parts of the brain just by doing that.
You know, I was reading a research article about dementia and how a lot of dementia is caused from a lack of touch. I thought that was really interesting too.
Kristin Hughes: I hadn't thought about that.
Kristin Hughes: But it's like, You know, you're getting older, you're not getting touched, hugs, all of that, you know, the importance of it.
So I guess, you know, give lots of hugs, like, you know, have an attachment, like let your baby sleep with you. Find ways to be touching your loved one as much as possible.
Dr. Brandon Crawford: Yes. Absolutely. That's good. Anything else you want to add to the world here? You want to? Yeah. That was a fun discussion about attachment.
So if you know someone that could really benefit from understanding even just a little bit more about neurological development and how attachment really does play into the overall development of how you live, your mental capacity, your hormonal status, all these things. Please share, you know, give them this information, send this podcast to them.
Just again, thank you so much for coming. Thanks for being willing to do this impromptu one off segment, which I think is really awesome. And yeah, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.