Ep 345 - Is It Wrong for Christians to Support War?

And to those who are listening , I wanna to offer just a connection to the gospel . Why should we , as Christians , be hesitant to agree with war man ? We just talked about Iran and how much they hate America . Death to America . The heart of every single man wages war on God in the same way that Iran wages war on us .

In our heart of hearts we're saying death to God , death to God . We are that World War II warmonger that wants control of the world away from God . And God does not drop a bomb on us . He could , but instead he offers peace . He bears the violence of the world . He doesn't return it .

The gospel calls us to be peacemakers because God first made peace with us . So why , when we hear Iran saying death to America , should we still lament the unfortunate reality that we may have to go to war with them , because we know that we said death to God and he offered peace Wow .

Yeah , for the dog to sleep at night ? Yeah . So I mean the more and more things happening for animals in .

Now , after five episodes , I was laughing until I cried on episode 335 , especially at the end when EZ signed off . Good guy Al . All the guys joking back and forth is so fun as well , and such biblical truths are relayed , but not in a boring way . Your podcast will take off as it's found . God bless Al .

We've got the gold coins , we've got the silver coins , they've got a perceived value , they're not plastic , and so it really is a treasure to lift up that lid like a pirate and give people the Ten Commandment coins .

The ball bounces so quickly you can hardly follow it with your eyes , but she's following it with her nose . She's that quick . She was after this rat with every muscle in her body , every ounce of energy was chasing this rat and we were saying go for it , go for it .

And then she got it , put it under her foot and the rat lifted up , looked at her and cried no , it broke my heart , it broke my heart .

? So this is a dilemma I've fought for the last 40 , 50 years as I've looked at Scripture . You can see both sides Love your enemies , shoot them . You know , with good advice , make war . So there's a fine dividing line and I'm so glad that I've gone through 75 years . I haven't had to go to war .

I haven't been conscripted , and even if I was now , I'd be useless as a soldier . Unless they issued every soldier with an electric bike , I'd be okay . And a dog , yeah , and a dog Sunglasses on the front of the bike .

You know that when it comes to secondary issues , there can be charity in that , there can be latitude where we say , look , this is not an essential issue . We may hold our views tenaciously and feel strongly about them , but there has to be a grace that's involved to say , look , these are not essentials .

And so , while we can even debate them and , and , and , you know , in a spirited way , at the end of the day we need to have that gracious heart and attitude . And we've talked before about pacifism , uh , on the or self-defense , rather , uh , but we want to , you know , talk and we can .

We can talk about things related to it , but we want to , yeah , talk about war , because it's a big thing and it's an important topic to tackle .

But I summarize sort of my study of should Christians support war , specifically looking at the early church and this brief paragraph which says our views on just war have changed over time , so much so that when many Christians now consider just would likely shock Augustine .

Augustine , We've gone from a persecuted church with pacifist impulses very important , not a pacifist church , a pacifist impulses to a church entangled in empire . From Augustine's cautious permission to wholesale American militarism . We are like a frog in boiling water . We didn't notice how far we've drifted .

We may find yourself condoning what the with the early church condemned .

, we're powerful , and it's easy to be influenced by that spirit , you know . But man , war is not something to gloat about , it's not something to revel in , and I do think it is an area that believers can differ on , and so I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys think and why , and to get into that . So , mark , I'd love to hear your perspective .

Or , I think it is a really good idea , right , you don't know what you're doing in your life , you don't have a stable family at home , you don't . Yeah , I think it's really great . And then you have the different wars that are out there and why we go to war and things of that nature . I do think that war is justifiable .

You know , in Genesis , chapter 14 , starting in verse 14 , it says now , when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive , heard that his brother was taken captive , he armed his 318 trained servants who were born in his own house and he went in to pursue as far as Dan .

He divided his forces against them by night and he and his servants attacked them and pursued them as far as Hobah , which is north of Damascus . So he brought back all the goods and also brought back his brother , lot and his goods , as well as the woman and all the people . So Abraham did not write a letter to Sodom , he went to war .

I think that there is , and I'm not saying all war right . What is war ? W-a-r . Oh , we are right , we are right . Right . That's why we go to war . We go to war because we are right and you feel the same thing . You feel that you're right and that's why you're going to war with us .

Possibly if it is a nation like ours , in that maybe it's democracy rules , but I don't think that all war is a good idea . And how do you pick that ? If you are in the military , you don't get to have a say in that you are going to war if you are in the military , right ?

So Romans 13 , 4 , I'll be the first one to quote it Thanks , mark , for he is God's servant for your good , but if you do wrong , be afraid , for he does not bear the sword in vain . The sword of God by our government is designed to bring peace . That is the point and the purpose , I think , for war . Right that we're going to war for peace .

And if you don't go to war oftentimes , then you will not have peace . That war is the only answer in a world that is hell-bent on bringing destruction . That's why we go to war , right ? So Trump , who's currently in office ? He cannot say that we are going to war . He can't say that without Congress , unless he's bringing a defense of protection .

It's the only reason Al Mohler came out with something really good on the briefing .

So , david , he didn't just lift holy hands , he lifted hands that had a sword inside of them . Unless we think of , forget about , was it Nehemiah who was at building the wall and he had a sword in one hand and what is it called ? A trowel ? A trowel in the other , as he's building the wall .

There is a place I'm just not excited about all the war that's taken place , and I remember , before my dad became a Christian , I asked him Dad , are you going to heaven when you die ? And he said no , I've killed too many people in war . Because he went to Vietnam twice and that was his reason why he thought he did not gain that access into heaven .

And then , like the apostle Paul we'll get into that a little bit later with Stephen , there was that epiphany , there was the opening of the eyes , the unveiling took place and realized that God saves the most wretched of sinners . He's able to do it to the gutter most . He still does it today .

Finally , francis Schaeffer to fail to stand against tyranny is to fail to love your neighbor , and if we love your neighbor , we're going to fight for our neighbor . So we have war that is commissioned and approved and designed by our government , but there's also war inside of our communities to protect our family and to protect our fellow neighbor .

That is a war that takes place .

And then I think there is the we are ruthless aspect of war , where there are those that are just wicked , ruthless people that don't care about people . They just want to conquer , they want to rule , they want power , and so I think it's important to explore that .

I would say , in terms of what we know from the tone and tenor of the Old Testament , that if we're speaking principally , war is not something that is by definition unrighteous . God called for righteous wars for different reasons . In fact , he used the children of Israel as an instrument through which he passed judgment on other nations .

And God would tell the Israelites clearly it's not because of your righteousness , it's not because of your greatness , but it's because of the wickedness of these nations that I'm using you to dispossess them , and so forth .

And I'm sure Oscar has a lot to say on this , but I think a lot of times there could be the confusion of a lot of the things that Jesus touched on in terms of loving our enemies , in terms of turning the other cheek and so forth . That I think contextually give a different perspective on that .

It's not that you can't thwart unrighteousness , but it's your interrelational as an individual disciple of Christ . How do you interact with others in a civil way in that regard and for the testimony of the gospel ?

But I think there is a distinction to be made between the civil and the governmental elements of how you defend a nation , and can Christians partake in that ? So let's get into that , oscar .

And again , you know , we kind of turned to the early church in the last episode and I'm going to do it again in this one , because I think in this subject it's really valuable for us to see how our theology of war has changed over time , if it's influenced by , you know , if you can look at the theory of war and the way that the church did for the first

300 years , or has it changed ? Did Rome change its perspective ? Did America change its perspective ? And so what you see in that early church is a similar tension that Ray was mentioning , which is that the early church , as I said before , leaned heavily toward a pacifism type view of the world , not pacifistic in the sense that we would understand pacifism .

Essentially , they saw that violence was incompatible with following Jesus . But they weren't totally pacifistic , because we have a lot of examples of , while Christians did not participate in war , they did pray for a positive outcome in war . They were non-combatant participants .

And so Origen , as a prime example , says we no longer take up the sword against nation , nor do we learn war anymore . We have become children of peace , for the sake of Jesus . Another historian I'm sorry , a church father in the first 300 years says it is always notice it is always unlawful to put to death a man whom God willed to be a sacred animal .

Another example is that soldiers and officials in the first 300 years would be . Another example is that soldiers and officials in the first 300 years would be excommunicated or barred from baptism if they became a soldier . Tertullian critiques military service .

He basically says like in order to be a part of the military , you need to swear an oath to military leaders , and his quote says one soul cannot serve both God and Caesar . And so there is this it's important to just recognize in the first 300 years there is this instinct against bloodshed .

But it's not historically accurate to say the church was totally against war because again , you also have examples of people in the early church praying for positive outcomes and participating in non-combatant ways . Again , you also have examples of people in the early church praying for positive outcomes and participating in non-combatant ways .

Then you fast forward a little bit and one of the things that we've talked about before we've thrown around this phrase just war . That is a phrase borrowed from Augustine . See how kind I am to my enemy . You're very nice .

It's important to contextualize , because I actually asked AI about Augustine's theory of just war and it gave a very skewed perspective , which is an example on how we can't always rely on AI . So it's important to have a background . First , the first time Augustine talks about just war , he doesn't talk about it in City of God .

There's actually quite a bit of letters that he's exchanging with people as they're asking him for help , and one of the first times the fascinating story it was the church of Corinth . There was slave trade happening and Corinth is a port city and so these slavers were bringing in slaves , many of them children and women . Why children ?

Because this is terrible , but children had more of a lifespan , so they were worth more as slaves . So these Christians are witnessing these slave traders come through Corinth and they're sending letters to Augustine like what should we do ?

And one day they decide in a non-combative way in the middle of the night to go in there and unlock the cages and steal these slaves away from the slave traders . And now they're hiding them in their homes and in their churches , trying to get them to go back to their land . And they're writing Augustine like hey , the city's coming down hard on us .

Did we do the right thing ? People are arguing whether we did the right thing or not , and he says that your war against the slave traders is just Now . It's

important to recognize that they never raised a sword , they never fought anybody . They simply went in there and freed the slaves from the slave traders . Fast forward a little bit . Rome falls to the Goths , and now you've got this discombobulated Rome and you have people that own land .

And these Goths are coming in and they're basically talking through like what should we do here ? And in City of God ? Augustine makes it very clear you thought Rome was God's country , and it wasn't . It was Babylon . Side note that's important for us to consider as Americans .

He then says to them , though it is valuable for you to consider defending Christian virtue if it means being attacked by the Goths . And so Henry Chadwick summarizes Augustine's just war theory , and a lot of people will say Augustine laid out these three or four or five criteria .

It actually wasn't Augustine's , just war theory and a lot of people will say Augustine's laid out these three or four or five criteria . It actually wasn't Augustine , it was Henry Chadwick that summarizes Augustine . He says basically , just war means self-defense or recovery of stolen property . Its aim is always peace , not conquest or revenge .

It's always proportional in force to revenge . It's always proportional in force . It has a respect for humanity and avoids humiliation . And we should always preserve the idea of prisoners of war . In other words , we need to protect their rights even when they are our enemies . So to summarize the idea of gust war permits war but never glorifies it .

It recognize it as always being tragic and it limits its reason to go to war .

One of the greatest things I learned when I was in Bible college was that principle of integration versus compartmentalization , where we sort of segregate our faith to certain aspects of our lives , versus integrating our faith into everything . Our faith informs everything . There's no like , oh well , that's different .

So now I'm an American soldier , so I'm going to talk like this and act like that , god forbid . But I think it's important too for us to , as Christians , whatever the early church may have done , to do what the Reformers taught us to do , and that's go back to Scripture .

Even with the Reformers , sometimes people will say , well , martin Luther , you know he was anti-Semitic , whatever , well , he was wrong . It doesn't mean , you know we're not . You know those that are saying lock , stock and barrel . Everything that the Reformers held to was right .

So I think that's why we need to be biblical and say , well , let's explore , let's examine . So , mark , I want to throw something to you in this vein . If some man broke into your house and began to attack your wife , would you stop them ?

And though I would leave room in my mind right now that he could have ulterior motives not to hurt , not to harm , I don't know what those would be , but that's not how you go about doing it .

So , like right now , obviously , in recent days or weeks or months , whenever this is airing obviously the United States of America went and bombed Iran and the perception was that they have nuclear bombs or were , I'm sorry , were attempting to enrich uranium to create nuclear bombs , and that they are a nation that has sworn death to America .

It's not just a slogan , but it's in their charter , it's like , it's a part of , like , their theology .

Yeah , some of us may say the death penalty is fine , but you can't just do it without total , absolute proof . There has to be care . But you can't just do it without total , absolute proof . There has to be care .

So , oscar , let's say that there was verifiable evidence that , as much as possible from multiple independent sources that verified that they weren't trying to enrich uranium , they've already spoken their intents to want to destroy the United States . Do you think that what we did was just ?

I also look back in history and think of the second gulf war in which we were told that there were weapons of mass destruction and now universally , both sides of the aisle are like whoops , it wasn't , um . I also want to recognize that we talk about iran as evil , but like the story is complicated , what was it ?

1988 we shot down an airliner with 280 something . And can you imagine if an airplane left Los Angeles for Peru ? And it turns out Iran had a military boat off the shore of Mexico and shot down an airliner with 280 people that were just trying to go on vacation ? We did that to them .

So I just I think , yes , what we did was just in this current situation with Trump as president , but I also just know geopolitical stuff is really complicated and I don't want to Dunning-Kruger myself into it ?

But , oscar , what you're saying , though , is true in that we need to be careful , because I often think about wmds right , the whole weapons of mass destruction , and saran was and has them but at the same time , I think as well that we need to be careful , because then we would say , oh well , then any kind of evidence we can't because of that versus like ,

look , there may be different sources of intel , there may be ways that they , you know , uh , came to that conclusion I want to say a side note .

And then there are people who have universally agreed with Trump who are not backing him , which is very interesting . So it's just very complicated . My expertise is not in geopolitical matters which is why I want to say I don't know .

the news in which we get right ? So we really got to be careful in the midst of this right .

So , to answer your question directly , I would say , if the information that I received , which is to eliminate the ability of Iran to create these nuclear missiles , whatever it may be , that seems like a really good thing , right , because I really do believe that their government wants to destroy America at all costs , that we are the infidel , right ?

I don't think there's any way around that . A couple quotes , a couple thoughts . Right , francis Schaeffer . He said , to fail to stand against tyranny is to fail to love your neighbor . Spurgeon , a time will come when peace means cowardice and war means righteousness . I'm not needing to make these decisions , though , right ?

So , because I'm not able to make these decisions , all I know is these little 30-second snippet Instagram newsreels , which is , by and large , where people get their news . I was surprised to see Tucker interview Ted Cruz concerning this . I don't know if you saw that , but there was fireworks amongst the two and I thought . I thought you were on the same side .

Am I that far removed now to what is happening ? So , bottom line for me , I think that there are times when war is justifiable . Right , and you had asked me the question if somebody breaks into my house , let me quote a verse Exodus 22, . If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies , there shall be no blood guilt for him .

Right , ray saying , if he had a real gun , he would start at the foot and work his way up .

It is a terrible act let me take it a step further of treason towards your government that we have the ability to put people in place .

I mean , sometimes it's easy for us to walk around and say , oh , you know , forget war , this and that , like those that are like hardcore pacifists and they're living in the benefits of those that went to war to defend us . So what do you think of something like World War II ? Should the United States have gotten involved ?

Yeah , I just can't help but think 50 million people like us four guys died in that war . Why ? Because some little twit that looked like Charlie Chaplin decided he wanted to rule the world just because of that , it's just absolutely crazy . This whole world's a tinderbox .

I am a fan of Fox , but I deliberately go across to CNN regularly so I get a balance , because I know Fox know their customs Customers , they know their base and their whole thing is pump Trump , and we'll get a good bottom line , and CNN say dump Trump , we'll get a good bottom line .

And so that's why Mark is so right about just being careful what you listen to , because you can be shaped by what you listen to .

He's in the middle of you know , people are getting baptized and people are asking him what should I do ? A tax collector comes to him what should I do ? And he gives him advice . And then a centurion that's someone enlisted in the army comes to him and says what ?

When diplomacy fails , resisting evil , preventing genocide or tyranny and upholding order , maintaining a lawful society . And then , when war is unjustified , greed , conquest , revenge , religious coercion , a disregard for civilians or unjust , targeting nationalism elevated above God's word , that's huge . And disobedience to God's moral law in battle .

I think it's a good kind of summation to look at . And then , in terms of the just war doctrine by Augustine and then Aquinas , augustine , so just cause , which is to stop real evil , genocide , invasion , proper authority declared by a legitimate government , right intention , goal must be peace , not conquest . Last resort , all options must be be exhausted .

I think that's an important one . Has diplomacy been given a shot , you know ? Uh , proportionality , force must be measured , not excessive .

And to those who are listening , I want to offer just a connection to the gospel . Why should we , as Christians , be hesitant to agree with war man ? We just talked about Iran and how much they hate America . Death to America . The heart of every single man wages war on God in the same way that Iran wages war on us .

In our heart of hearts we're saying death to God , death to God . We are that World War II warmonger that wants control of the world away from God . And God does not drop a bomb on us . He could , but instead he offers peace . He bears the violence of the world . He doesn't return it .

The gospel calls us to be peacemakers because God first made peace with us . So why , when we hear Iran saying death to America , should we still lament the unfortunate reality that we may have to go to war with them , because we know that we said death to God and he offered peace . Wow .

And right now and this is a good segue we're talking about war in the geopolitical sense , but there are wars going on in churches today . There are wars between churches , there are wars within a given local church , between its members , and I'd love you to speak to that . What's the solution ? How do we get ?

I remember being in Oklahoma and seeing at the museum where it was called the Battle in the Trenches that's where World War I was right . And you had this moment where on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day , where you had the Brits and the Germans coming out and there was a truce for those two days there's a video on that

and they came out and they exchanged gifts with one another , they sang hymns with one another , they played soccer .

Imagine this you have two Christians that are trying to kill each other and calling for a truce in order to recognize that God is in this place , that we are fellow image bearers , right ? I'm getting emotional thinking about this , trying to destroy you in your future lineage . I want to kill you , and it's like we're holding up a white flag .

For just a moment , if the church did this for just a moment . Yeah , but you're not Lutheran , you're not Episcopalian , you don't attend Calvary Chapel . You're Baptist , but what sort of Baptist Are you ? Reformed Baptist ? Yeah , but which confession ? Are you Right To wave the white flag and to recognize that God is bigger than what is going on ?

Have you ever had an argument with your wife and you're like , you're 30 minutes in . You're thinking to yourself what are we even arguing about anymore ? We just want to be right and oftentimes and this is where easy I think that you're absolutely amazing in this area when it comes to , I just want to be heard .

I just want to make sure you understand the angle from which I'm coming from and that I'm okay with whatever decision you want to make , but you understand that I'm coming from this angle , this angle and this angle , and this is my understanding , my understanding , my understanding . You get that right and you go . I get that Great .

Hey , god has placed you in charge whatever you want to do . If we did that by and large with the church , the bickerings they would cease . And we see in 1 Corinthians , chapter 11 , with Paul .

So Paul with that daily concern of the church , the things that would come upon him , the weight that was upon his shoulders and the decisions that he had to make , and he said the least of all , that I would not expect the war that came from within the church that was upon him .

So there is a greater war that is taking place and we have to remember that we do not fight against flesh and blood , but against principalities and powers , against demonic forces that want to take us down .

If we leave the house realizing that we are in a spiritual battle , when we get cut off from that person , if you live in California , you're going to get cut off . I got cut off . Today You're not raising a fist , but you're raising holy hands to pray for that person .

You don't know what they're going through and I remember reading earlier today about a woman who lost her husband and she went into the public and she had to buy groceries and she thought to herself nobody has a clue what I'm going through . I still have to buy food for my kids and the sales clerk looks at me and says , hi , having a great day .

You don't know what somebody's going through . Slow to speak , quick to listen , slow to wrath and anger .

You know , ray , is it an issue of self-control ? Is it .

Yeah , it's demonic , it's in the heart of man and that's what we've got to recognize in all of us , and we strive to have the wisdom from above which is peaceable , open to reason , willing to yield . Yeah , willing to yield , just give up and give it to God .

I look at some of the things in the Old Testament , some of the wars , and I can't justify them . They're pretty bloodthirsty , hacking someone to death in war with a sword . If I was there I'd probably just go for a long walk or something .

And they say yes . So you're saying the Bible's right and they say no , it didn't happen . So what are you worried about then ? Just like getting upset because Cinderella's coach turned into a pumpkin at midnight it's ? If it didn't happen , don't get upset , that happened , it did .

He'll provide the way of escape so that we can stand up under it or endure it . And so , as I often say , it's not that we can't , it's that we won't . And so we need to get back to that place of saying man , I need to access what I have .

And I think sometimes it's that forgetfulness which is still our fault , because we're not training ourselves to remain mindful of what we need to remember .

So it's again like the guy who has an eighth-degree black belt and has given martial art but gets amnesia , forgets , finds himself in an alleyway with some little pipsqueak trying to threaten him , starts knocking at the knees .

We need to be at peace with all men , as far as it depends on us .

The lord's given us a sweet camaraderie and partnership in the gospel , like we do this podcast , but behind the scenes we're we're preaching gospel together and we are ministering to people together and we're traveling the world together , and what a joy that God has given us this . And I think we talked about this recently .

One of the greatest joys we have about the podcast is the example it gives other believers in terms of the fellowship we can have , because , friends , what we're doing here is something you can replicate with other brothers , that's all . We're brothers .

We're sitting around a table , yeah , we're talking to these microphones , but we're like we get there's times I forget we're doing a podcast , we're lost in the moment because we're fellowshipping . We're edifying each other , encouraging each other , sharpening each other .

, don't forget to take your commandments coins the treasure chests all at Living Waters .