¶ Intro / Opening
How do we know that what we're experiencing is real ? There must be some reality outside of us , and the Greeks , the Greek philosophers , used this term , logos , to describe that connecting point between the knowable and the unknowable
¶ How do we know what's real?
, the material , the immaterial , the temporal , the eternal . And when they talked about it , some said , well , we use logic , okay , we can make out logical propositions and therefore , if we do enough of those , then we can understand the shape of reality . Other people said , no , it's about our words . We use words and all of a sudden , reality takes shape .
Therefore , we're talking about it is what brings it into existence . John came along and said in the beginning was the logos of God . The logos was with God . The logos was God . He was with God in the beginning . And it becomes very clear that Jesus is the connecting point between what is knowable and what is not knowable .
Well , when I would talk with my students about that , they would say I've never thought about that before . So if I understand that Jesus is truth , the truth exists and it's not just a logical proposition or fine words , it's a person . If I understand that , then that can't just apply to my own personal life . That ultimately has to apply to everything .
I stayed at a hotel with Kelly the other day . We used her points . It was her little getaway and you guys just reminded me when we were setting it up . I put my name in there as Dr Navarro and everywhere we went it was hey , dr Navarro , thanks for being here , dr Navarro . And every time it happened , kelly just rolled her eyes . You didn't feel guilty .
No not at all .
After any conversation people are thinking , oh , it must be an honorary that's 100% .
It was fun until they woke you up at 3 o'clock in the morning and said we got somebody having a heart attack here , dr Navarro , not that kind of doctor Having the baby .
That's right . That's right . I'm bringing that up because we have an actual doctor with us today , dr Jeff Myers , the president of Summit Ministry . Jeff , thank you so much for joining us . I'm glad to be with you guys . Yeah , we're glad to have you . As you guys can tell , jeff is not easy . Easy is still out sick . I just actually heard from him .
He gave me a call and he sounded like Kermit the Frog . He's as sick as a dog . He's as sick as a dog . I will tell you , sounding like Kermit the Frog is an improvement for easy , slightly more masculine . Slightly more masculine A little bit more meat on the bone . That's exactly right .
For those of you who don't know , jeff , as I mentioned before , is the president of
¶ Understanding Logos: The Greek Philosophy of Reality
Summit Ministries . He's written 14 books , including Truth Changes Everything . He also hosts a podcast by that same name , truth Changes Everything , with Dr Jeff Myers . Jeff , you seem like a really smart guy . Why would you come onto this podcast ? What are you thinking ?
We're going to fix it .
The last podcast I heard was you guessing songs from the 1980s ?
I'm so sorry . That was one of the intellectual .
I thought I could do it .
That was the highest bar we had , it would have to be Def Leppard or Sticks or whatever .
I could guess them .
Yeah , he's trying to torpedo his career by joining us .
I knew I could be successful at that very thing .
He's demonstrating that God's grace covers a multitude .
That's exactly right . Before we get started , let's go ahead and read a comment by Jackson . Hello friends , I'm not going to do it in the easiest way , thank you . My name is Jackson , I'm 20 years old and I love the podcast .
The other day , while I was at work , I saw a suspiciously familiar non-Spanish speaking Mexican waiting in our lobby with a group of friends . When I went to greet them , I was surprised to see the one and only Oscar Navarro . That's you , that's me .
Yeah , it was such a blessing to meet Oscar and to tell him that the work y'all do on the podcast and YouTube channel has made a huge impact on my life and brought me to a saving faith in Jesus . Thank you all so much for what you do . The four of you have all blessed me in different ways .
Ray , your zeal for the lost and passion for the true gospel have inspired me to share my faith with others . Easy Fight , like a man , has been such a blessing to me that I bought 30 copies for the men in my group . Mark , your dedication to serving the Lord in all you do has inspired me to do the same .
Oscar , your statements of theological wisdom Notice , the wisdom part is on to do the same . Oscar , your statements of theological wisdom Notice , the wisdom part is on my side . Jeff . Oscar , your statement of theological wisdom on the podcast have inspired me to deepen my understanding of God's word . Thank you all again for everything you do .
The content you make truly blesses people . God bless you . Guys . I hope you all have a great week . You're my brother , jackson , so the irony is I'm talking about he's making a comment . Guys , I hope y'all have a great week . You're , by the way , jackson . So the irony is I'm talking about he's making a comment about theological wisdom .
What were you guys doing while I was trying to ?
read that I was trying to take my jacket off , and whenever you try to take your jacket off around Ray , he makes it 10 times more difficult . Well , I was trying to help him , is that right ?
He couldn't get his sleeve out wear a full body girdle to hold my muscles . I don't realize it , but I got it off all right guys , uh , today's podcast is brought to you by uh , the evidence study bible .
Look at that tens and tens have been sold to be one sitting right in the middle of that's right , yeah co-written by the holy spirit and ray comfort that's actually not right .
No , no , just the commentary .
The commentary is written by Ray Comfort . The rest is written by God . It is one of our most sold books and resources that we have . You can get it today at livingwaterscom . We highly recommend it to you if you haven't gotten one already .
It's Pregnant with .
Apologetics .
That's right .
Yes , yes , yes , yes . All apologetics , that's right . Yes , yes , yes , yes . Today we are talking about discipling the next generation . Generation Z is the least religious generation in America .
Having trouble with the word generation .
I am struggling . They are known for being spiritual but not religious , but it would be a mistake to think that this is the atheism of 2001 . Gen Z is more likely to listen to Jordan Peterson than Richard Dawkins , which tells us they're asking different kinds of questions than the things that Richard Dawkins wrestled Gen Z .
what age group ?
12 to 27 . Okay .
This is good news that they're asking these kind of questions , because it means they're actually not opposed to faith . They are wrestling with it . We see the Gen Z are struggling with what is being called the loneliness epidemic , an increase in anxiety and depression , which also tells us that they are more self-aware and that they need something greater .
As the philosopher James KA Smith said in his book On the Road with Augustine , they are on the road looking for transcendence . They are in need of some sort of transcendent experience If secularism has succeeded in disenchanting our lives .
Anxiety , depression , loneliness are all hints , longings haunting for a re-enchantment , and churches , unfortunately , have responded poorly . They're moving towards online churches . They have weird intros , like asking their band to play Coldplay covers , because they want to make sure you feel like we are in touch with culture .
Churches are hiring girls named Marsha to design their foyers where she just goes and shops at Hobby Lobby , all while Gen Z is actually gravitating towards liturgy and community .
As a matter of fact , there's a rise in young people attending liturgical churches , even primarily Latin speaking churches , when they don't even know what they're saying , but because they are hungry for transcendence . As James K Smith says in his book , we Are what we Love . The church is meant to be an experience of kissing heaven .
They want liturgy and they want transcendence . They want a community because they desire discipleship , as Trevor Wax once said , which I saw . You had a conversation with him . He says One of my students I didn't know that Young people want to be courted by the church , welcomed into fellowship , entrusted with responsibility and shown they matter .
But more than anything they wanna be ushered into splendor , not superficiality . They're looking for an antidote to the shallow life of swiping and scrolling through endless entertainment . The best way that's the end of the quote for Trevin Wax the best way to re-enchant a disenchanted generation is through discipleship , wouldn't you say , jeff ?
Oh , let's go . Yeah , that's fantastic . That's an amazing introduction . The word re-enchantment is huge because you've got this generation having grown up for the . I don't know how long has secularism been prevalent since the enlightenment 100 years , 150 years , 200 years and now , all of a sudden , you've got these young adults who are saying you know what ?
I don't have a sense of purpose . 75% say I don't have a sense of purpose that gives meaning to my life . Half of them , especially post-COVID , say they regularly struggle with anxiety and depression . And more and more of them are saying this is not what life is supposed to be all about . There's got to be something more .
I was thinking this morning in a previous generation , a lot of young adults during the Jesus movement here in California were on the beach and they were tripping on acid or whatever and they would come down from their high and think there's got to be something more .
There has to be something in life , and a lot of them heard about a guy in Switzerland named Francis Schaeffer .
Yeah amazing .
They went over to Switzerland and he said come on in my house and you can ask all the questions you want . In fact , that's what we think of . That's how we think of the work that we do at Summit Ministries . You know what's funny ? We're inviting them to come . You can bring all your hard questions .
What's funny , jeff , is that when I was reading about Summit , I'm like man , this is so Schaeferian . I made that word up , but still it was very Francis Schaeffer-esque in the way that he was inviting people not just like come experience a conference , come be discipled in the context of community . How much of an influence of Francis Schaeffer is to you guys ?
Francis Schaeffer had a huge influence on David Noble , who founded Summit Ministries . Now , he founded it prior to what Schaeffer was doing I think it was 1962 . And he began it as kind of an anti-communism movement .
There's this worldview out there and the communists believe they are going to take over seminaries and teach people to not believe in God but to believe in social justice instead . Theology , philosophy , ethics , biology , psychology , sociology , law , politics , economics , history it's going to apply to every area of life .
And his question was do we as Christians even know that we're in a battle ? Do we even know that there is a Marxist view on these topics or a secular view ? And have we thought through what a biblical Christian worldview is on these topics ? That's why David Noble started the program .
But what it's become is a place where any young adult can come who's if they're saying I am just tired . I am just , as they say , sick and tired of being sick and tired . I do not believe that my culture is going to give me the answers I'm really looking for . I need somebody to talk honestly with me about these difficult questions .
And so we tell students they're 16 to 22 years of age , largely bring your toughest questions with you , and some of them will literally do . You know , it's like I have a piece of paper in front of me .
They will literally write out every question that they would like to ask God or they have about politics or economics or whatever Give me some of them I'd love to hear them . Number one question they bring is how can God be good if my life is like this ? It's the problem of evil . How can there be a good God ?
But a lot of the questions young adults bring are about things like sexuality and I won't reveal any details about these conversations other than just to get to the main point .
But I had one student sit down with me at lunch and students very quickly realized I'm safe here , not safe from thinking like safe spaces on college campuses , realized I'm safe here , not safe from thinking like safe spaces on college campuses , I'm safe to think .
And so he sat down and his first question to me over lunch was what is it , besides consent , that should govern my sexual ethic ? Wow , it was literally his question straight out first question . And I said have you ever thought about love ? Have you ever thought about what God's love is and what it means for God to love us ?
And then what a man might need to do to love somebody else , to protect their heart rather than to try to get access to their body . He was staring at me for the longest time and then he said I have never heard anything like this in my life .
But here's the thing if I'm gathering what you just said , you really haven't said anything other than asked questions to cause critical thinking within him , to think through why he's asking what he's asking you Exactly . Yeah , beautiful .
Yeah , I wanted the dialogue . So that's you know , that's 2 Timothy , chapter two . Those who oppose him , he must gently instruct and hope that God will grant them repentance , leading them to knowledge of the truth , and that they may come to their senses and escape the trap of the devil , who has taken them captive to do his will .
So we start the conversation , which is why I love what you're doing at Living Waters , because you're just beginning the conversations that everybody really wants to have anyway .
They just don't feel safe , or they feel like they're going to get canceled , or they feel like they have to , in a conversation , sort of pretend to believe one thing or another so that they're accepted .
I love that phrase , jeff . Not feel safe , but feel safe to think . That's such a great way of putting it . Ray , you've been on the streets preaching the gospel since 1921 . My question it started before that . Did you Cutting me short ? My bad , my bad , you've been cut short your whole life . Question for you is how has it changed ?
You're talking to somebody in 19 , whatever , 95 , versus today . Do you feel like there's a difference ? Are they asking different questions ? Has the approach changed for you ?
The approach hasn't changed . But I've found and I mentioned this before that COVID did the church an incredible favor because it pushed people who were not thinking about their mortality to think about their mortality . I mean , when you're 18 , 17 , 18 , you don't think about your death . Death is for old people , and yet they've been .
It's been ushered right to their forehead this black tomb . They're going to die . So when I witness to people and I've said this before , but it's worth saying again one of the first questions I say is are you afraid of dying ? I did it this morning in a local college and most people say yeah , I'm terrified .
And that's because Hebrews says they're haunted Every day . Amplified Bible , amplified , amplified . We quote the verse a little louder when we quote the Amplified Bible , but it says they're haunted by the fear of death all their lifetime . Hebrews 2 , 14 and 15 . And so I know that they're haunted by this fear of death and I can see it by their facial expression .
They're thinking how did this guy know I'm terrified of dying ? I haven't told mom , dad , brother , sister , boyfriend , girlfriend , but I know because scripture tells me . And then I say and it's just , I'm like a recording , but it works every time . Have you ever read the Bible ? No , did you know the Old Testament ?
In the Old Testament God promised he would destroy death and in the New Testament we're told how he did it and they go . I didn't know that and you can hear by their tone . It is the first time they've heard something like that . I said would you like to hear ? And who's going to say no when it opens the door to the gospel ? So when Jesus
¶ The Role of Logic in Understanding Reality
said lift up your eyes , don't look down , lift up your eyes . The fields are white to harvest . The problem is that we haven't taken the sickle . We haven't taken the sickle that God used , through Jesus , that law to bring the knowledge of sin .
Paul said I had not known sin , but by the law , by the law is the knowledge of sin , so the disease is diagnosed , so that we can give them the cure through the gospel .
And Ray , how long did it take you to realize , when you're praying to the Lord to raise up laborers , that you are in that mix ? You're praying for yourself in reality , right .
Yeah well , it's an interesting verse to look at , because I'd like to ask Christians do you pray for laborers to be raised up , as we've been told to Pray to the Lord of the harvest ? If you're not a laborer , you are not going to pray because you feel guilty , and so Satan gets a double whammy .
Not only are there a few laborers , as Jesus said , but you're not even praying for laborers . Every day , I cry out to God raise up laborers . Raise them up , because Christians are willing to go into the harvest fields . They just don't know how to do it , so they just need to be equipped yeah .
And you teach someone to address the conscience as Jesus did , and it changes everything . And that's what our ministry specializes in and that's why we're so excited with you two to be able to do that .
And the beauty of this , ray , is if you just teach people to ask questions . Yeah , we're believers . Yep , tell me what you think about this or that . How do you know that ? When you use that term , what do you mean ? How do you know that's true ? Yeah , have you ever thought of what would happen if you were proven wrong ?
Those simple questions anybody can learn and you can get engaged in any conversation . People ask us do you think students need to be believers to come to Summit Ministries ? And my answer is no , they don't . But they need to be believers to come to Summit Ministries , and my answer is no , they don't , but they need to be learners .
I'll ask a young person are you a curious person ? I had a student last summer come . He introduced himself as an atheist to everybody he met Hi , I'm Ben , I'm an atheist . Everybody he met , not because he was proclaiming a stance , because he was inviting a conversation , and we saw that immediately . He wants to . This is something he wants to talk about .
Well , that's why he brought it up at the very beginning . He's desperate for conversation . But it's fine , that's great . I'm glad you're here . You're a curious person .
You're a learner , you know , last night I spoke to this Arabic gathering , where it's a Bible study inside this home and there's 50 people from the Mideast who don't claim to be Christians by and large .
So I went into this environment and I said hey , I just want to start off by simply saying that I believe that Christianity is intelligent , that it can handle your questions , it can handle your skepticism , and I want to take a quick poll here , if I may . How many people fall into ?
And I started naming the different categories , right , and Christianity was like number three or four on the list . How many people think that they're just deep thinkers ? Or maybe you're a skeptic . You adhere to the tenets of the flying spaghetti monster .
Maybe you're agnostic and you're thinking , you know , I don't think anybody really knows he , she , it , whatever's out there , this force that's kind of driving humanity , and you're getting different hands that are just kind of raised up all over the place and go great , listen , I want to let you know this is a great place and a safe place to just simply ask
questions , because we're going to have a discussion here and as much as I think Christianity is intelligent , listen , I don't have all the answers . I'm on a journey just as much as you , but I believe I have the most important questions answered why am I here , how did I get here , what's the meaning of life and what's going to happen to me when I die ?
There's a lot of really good religions out there , but they don't deal with the main issue as we talk about in why Christianity ? And that is the sin issue , because Christianity is the only worldview that deals with our biggest dilemma Our sins have separated us from God . Now how is that gap bridged ?
Who's got questions . Yeah , I love that , the important and value of a gospel community that is interested in discipling somebody with questions . Again , to go back to that statement , it's not just we're creating a safe space like they create on college campuses , which is ultimately not a safe space , but a safe space to think .
I can't emphasize that enough and I'm thinking back to when I first became a Christian out of atheism . Over and over again I realized that there are certain churches whose culture is not designed for you to ask important questions . Oftentimes what I found was it was like oh , you know , our youth pastor , like he's an apologist , he's got .
You know , he read like one Lee Strobel book and I would sit down with him and I would ask a question and he would give me like one premeditated line but he wasn't actually thinking through the question that I was asking . And did you see through it right away ? You see it right away ? This person isn't interested in dialoguing with me .
They're interested in having some premeditated response me . They're interested in having some premeditated response and if my question doesn't fit , he's he's answering a question that I'm not even asking and we're not really having a real dialogue . And by the end of the meeting .
It was like all right , well , you know , best of luck , he didn't want to see me again . That happened over , and , over and over again .
It wasn't until I know I've said this before , but I can't emphasize it enough it wasn't until a man named Casey came along and was like man , let me like , inviting me into his home , invited me over for dinner , invited me on vacation with him , his wife and his nephew . And it was just like dude , I just , I just want to read God's word with you .
And when I asked him a question , he never pretended to know the answer . If he didn't have it , instead , he would just go . I don't know . But give me a week , let me pray , let me read and let's figure it out together .
And that was exactly what former atheist Oscar needed Not somebody who pretended like they had all the answers , but somebody who's willing to love me enough to step in incarnationally into my life and answer the questions . Go on the journey with me , jeff .
Oscar , you press right to the heart of what discipleship is all about . I had a friend who was a mentor to me and each time I would come have breakfast with him he would give me some new fact that he had discovered . One day he sat down and he said did you know that Jesus asked 288 questions in the gospels ? I said you counted them ?
He said yeah , I counted them . I said you are such a nerd I'm going to have , I want to have breakfast with you , every single week , but another day he said do you know that in order for the timeline of the gospels to be true , where people were walking from one place to another , Jesus went from this place to this place .
To be true , where people were walking from one place to another , jesus went from this place to this place . They had to have been walking for 13 months , every day , all day out of the three years of earthly ministry . Walking with and asking questions . Isn't that fascinating ? I can do that . I can do that , anybody can do that .
Well , listen , you're hitting it , because discipleship today , what we call discipleship , it looks a whole lot different than it happened in the first century . Right Today , discipleship is when somebody asks hey , will you disciple me ? Great , let's go through a book together , and there's nothing obviously wrong with going through a book together .
But that is not biblical discipleship . When we begin to think about it , discipleship is what happens in between the everyday happenings of life , and I wrote down a thing a while back and I'll read a little bit of it . Discipleship happens in the spaces between teaching and living . Jesus spent time walking , eating , laughing and working alongside his disciples .
It's not just about what you teach , but how you live , and it's challenging individuals to come alongside you through the everyday happenings of life . I'm going to this wedding . I'm going to Costco hey , I need to work on my car , and you're able to just ask questions and answer questions . Hey , how would you have handled that ? Or hey , I have a flat tire .
I have a flat tire . Will you come and help me out ? I don't know how to fix a flat tire . No , no , I'm going to call AAA and I want you to be there when I engage in a conversation with AAA , right . It's all of these things that we don't even think about when it comes to discipleship . But that is what real discipleship looks like .
Hey , I'm going to have a family devotions . You're welcome to come over . Hey , I , anybody ever sat down with you and worked out your financials with you ? Do you know how to change the oil on a car ? Do any of these things ? So this is a bigger issue . This is a Christ-centric , bible-at-hand issue . We're just living life . Hey , I'm having this struggle .
Young one , how would you counsel through this ? What do you think scripture would say ? Who do I call ? Who do I talk ? What books do you recommend ?
And then we're just kind of molding and I'll tell you that discipleship is a beautiful thing , the power of that , because what you're doing is you're incarnating truth into life . Because here's the reality . With the internet now , with AI , there is no question that that young , 20 something year old person could get answered .
But there's a difference between getting an answer to a question online on a podcast through AI and then getting an answer from somebody who's living it out . When you see , you know , we'll have a young guy at my house .
He watches us have dinner , he watches me play with my kids , he watches the bedtime story that we do our devotional , he watches how I speak tenderly to my wife and at that point that person now sees the truth that I'm trying to deliver in a whole new light .
And in an era where there are so many pastors falling online , you see them , you realize the hypocrisy for somebody to see somebody living out authentically imperfectly but authentically what they believe . It is life changing . It is exactly what this generation needs .
And I would say just one other thing , which is that discipleship shouldn't be held back just for the believer . The early church didn't hold back discipleship from non-believers . They'd proclaim the gospel and then they'd invite them into their home , into their routine , and let them see it lived out in their lives .
You know I got a question for you , Ray , you don't have to know .
Greek or Hebrew or Urdu or Aramaic . To be able to do what you just said , you just need to be able to open up a carton of ice cream and put it in bowls and sit down and talk .
Amen . Well , that sounds good to me .
Yeah , and proof is that there is a relationship between discipleship and ice cream . Yeah .
You know , what's interesting is they did a survey and they ask people in the church you know older age people in the church like , what are your thoughts on the youth ? And they were like , oh man , they're lost , they're headed for destruction . They need mentors . Then they asked the youth like what you need most in the church ?
And they were like we need mentors . Then they went back to the elder group and they said hey , who would be interested in mentoring ? Very few of them raised their hand . They're terrified . In other words , they recognize that it's a need but they're not willing to step in . Why is that , ray ?
Jeff , why do you think that is ?
You know Howard Hendricks . He said every Paul needs a Timothy and every Timothy needs a Paul . We need to always be pouring in and we need to be always being poured into that we should always be hanging out with gray haired individuals and people who are just starting to get their hair right , from youngins to teenagers that we fall .
And this is why I love homeschooling
¶ The Importance of Words in Shaping Existence
so much , because my kids have the ability five kids to interact with youngins and older people and it's so far removed from that whole idea that homeschool kids are out of touch with reality and they have no social cues or interactions with people and they don't know how to interact with people . I'll give- .
Let me I wanna tell you a story . I was out in Los Angeles a couple of months ago to record a podcast with PragerU , which is a Jewish company , as you know . They were very interested in understanding evangelical Christianity , so it was really fun to have a great conversation with them .
But as I was leaving the building , the person who was taking me around and showing me their new offices said just a young person said I just have a question for you , if there's one piece of advice that you could give . So I've got a group of young Christians like myself . If there's one piece of advice that you could give , what would it be ?
And I said I think that's really simple you need old people . You need old people . I'm glad you have your group of your peers in your church , but the body of Christ is a family . If you went to a family reunion and everybody was 21 , you have a weird family . That's not normal .
You need old people , and so that's one of the key things that we try to teach our students at Summit Ministries .
And I know the audience for your show , the people who are listening right now 18 to 24 , their heart's cry is how do I connect with an older person who I can really relate to , who doesn't feel like they have to just lecture me , who doesn't feel like they have to impose anything on me , but they just want to walk with me through life .
There are a couple of things you do . The first one is write out a list of your areas of need , not just biblical needs , not just , oh , I need to understand the book of Leviticus . Yeah , I said why ? Write out ? I need to learn a foreign language to be able to do my job . I need to understand my budget so that I can live within my means .
Write those things out and I will tell them write out 20 things , 20 things that you know you need to know but that you do not know to be successful in life . Write them things out and I will tell them write out 20 things , 20 things that you know you need to know but that you do not know to be successful in life .
Write them all out and then , once you've got your list , then you start asking God will you show me the people who could mentor me in relation to this particular need ? You're not looking for somebody to attach yourself to every single week for one hour for the rest of your life .
You're looking to meet these needs and you're all of a sudden seeing everybody around you as a potential resource , not someone to use , but someone to connect with . And then your network begins to grow , and then they feel comfortable introducing you to their friends and to the people who influence them .
And all of a sudden you realize I actually have a shot at being somebody who makes a difference because of the people I know , all starting with that , and so you need all I got a question Jeff , you've written what 14 books , which is your most important one , your favorite , and why that's a good question .
My favorite book that I've written is called Truth Changes Everything , and I'll tell you the reason why . It's my Two reasons why it's my favorite . Number one because I was a college professor for many years and in my work as a college professor I would see that my students always felt this tension of I'm living in this world that I think is real .
But I know that this isn't all there is , and even students who were atheists would say there's something spiritual going on and I don't know what it is and I don't know how to understand it . This goes all the way back to the Greeks . They were always asking the question how do we know that what we're experiencing is real ?
There must be some reality outside of us , and the Greeks , the Greek philosophers , used this term , logos , to describe that connecting point between the knowable and the unknowable , the material , the immaterial , the temporal , the eternal .
And when they talked about it , some said , well , we use logic , okay , we can make out logical propositions and therefore , if we do enough of those , then we can understand the shape of reality . Other people said , no , it's about our words . We use words and all of a sudden , reality takes shape .
Therefore , we're talking about it is what brings it into existence . John came along and said in the beginning , was the logos of God ? The logos was with God . The logos was God . He was with God in the beginning . And it becomes very clear that Jesus is the connecting point between what is knowable and what is not knowable .
Well , when I would talk with my students about that , they would say I've never thought about that before . So if I understand that Jesus is truth , the truth exists and it's not just a logical proposition or fine words , it's a person . If I understand that , then that can't just apply to my own personal life . That ultimately has to apply to everything .
So I thought this is gonna be a fun book to write because I get to talk about how Jesus followers who believe that Jesus is the truth change the world in science and in the arts and in education and in medicine and all of these things . Radically , I got the book contract and I got cancer . Oh , wow .
And all of a sudden the enemy that was attacking me wasn't outside of me . The enemy that was attacking me wasn't outside of me , it was inside of me . And I wrote that book Going Through the Treatments for Cancer . And you know , god be praised . I've been free of the cancer , it's been in remission .
I have another appointment tomorrow , actually , where I'll go in and talk with them a little bit more and see where things stand . But when you realize this could be the last thing you ever do , what would you say ?
And that's why it became Ray my favorite book , because it was the one I thought if this is the last book I ever get to write , this is the one I want to write . The truth does exist . It's that we seek the truth , we don't just speak our truth , and that that truth is a person and it's Jesus .
And the people who believe that change the course of the world in the past , and people who believe it today can change the course of our own society .
They can change the course of our own society . Boy , you know . We talk about truth , this weird word , where it becomes subjective to every individual . Everybody gets to decide for themselves what is right , wrong , good , bad , sacred and secular . And Christianity stands alone , right , it stands aloof from all the other worldviews .
We've talked about how Hinduism , when talking about truth , that it's mysterious , it's elusive , it's hard to find , right , buddha said that truth was hidden from us . Or Muhammad said that he pointed people to the truth . Then Jesus enters onto the scene and he never said that truth was mysterious , elusive , hard to find .
He said I am the way , the truth and the life . And then these provocative words drip from his mouth like honey when he said nobody comes to the Father except through me . Jesus alone was able to hush the seed to sleep and tuck it into bed at night , not speaking from authority , but with authority .
And with his authority he commanded attention , not needing to speak from authority , like the other prophets of old , but with authority , he always did those things that pleased his father Truth personified . So if we're going to define truth , right , it was Gene Wilder , the actor that said truth will make you peculiar , right , and it was somebody Worked for him .
Yeah , it was right . And who was it that said if you're not gonna tell me the truth , then don't start speaking to me at all . Right that we live in a day and age that hunger and thirst for truth , that we claim that we want truth , but we seldom like the taste of it when it is served up .
That reminds me of another quote , which is truth is like poetry and not many people like poetry . That's good right .
But we are on this ever-ending quest to know truth and to make this truth known to a world who doesn't know the truth right . God grants repentance that leads to the truth right . So what we are doing is we want to know Christ better today than we did yesterday .
And what we learned today we share with the people around us , we share with our kids , we share with each other . This is where I'm at , this is where I'm growing , this is where I'm going . Look to him Live . Who was it that said live , die and be forgotten , right , or something along that lines ? Preach the gospel .
Whoever it was , he's been forgotten . I love that , Mark .
Anonymous , you bring something up unique , which is the reality that I think in discipleship , one of the most important aspects is to willingly put on display our frailty , our humanity , our fallenness . That same guy , casey , I remember one time we were in his car . He was a big Angels fan . He took me to Angels games .
And we're on our way home from an Angels game and this is like right , when the first election for Obama was around and somebody with a pro-Obama bumper sticker cuts him off or something .
And he didn't cuss because he wasn't a cusser , but he was like this liberal blah blah blah , cut me off and blah blah blah in white California and this and that , and he just like went off and me and his nephew , who was my age , were just in the back giggling . We just thought it was funny .
Like oh , casey , and he calls me like the next day , like he used to call me a pencil brain . I answered my phone and he goes pencil brain . I was like hey , casey , he knew you , that's right . He just takes this deep breath and he goes . I gotta apologize . The way I reacted in that moment yesterday when that guy cut me off , was not okay .
It didn't glorify the Lord , it didn't honor him as a Imago Dei image bearer and I didn't just , I didn't display the gospel well to you , will you forgive me ? And I'm a 20 something year old that didn't grow up with two abusive step dads and a drug addict mom .
I had never heard an adult , especially someone who was in a fatherly mentor role , apologize to me , like that changed everything . And so the willingness , in the midst of discipleship , to show humility and to allow our depravity to draw us to repentance and to put that on display is a powerful testimony to the gospel for the youth .
And then that reminds me that it was Todd Friel who once said that your kids should know that you're the biggest sinner in the house . Yeah , not because you're sinning more than anybody in the house , but because they hear you apologize whenever you do wrong , you just own up . Yeah , you know I messed up . I had a harsh word with mama or ?
Hey , I shouldn't have done that , I should have done that , or I should have handled this just a little bit better with that tow truck driver , right ? Hey , I messed up . I could have handed out a track and I didn't . I chickened out .
Will you encourage me or challenge me next time to try to engage inside that conversation , that reality of living life and saying my dad has not attained . He's like the apostle Paul he's forgetting what lies behind , he's pressing onward , he's pushing upward , he's looking towards Christ , who is his hope .
I want to be like dad , and pretty soon that comes out more and more and more . What is it ? The song that you said ?
you sing and you wait for your kids one of these days , the Doctology yeah , I sing it every morning , doctology . And then sometimes people join in .
Sometimes people don't , sometimes they don't , but that's the focus . Our lives are a continual song , amen , right that we're continually singing about God , talking about God , and then people join in and it becomes contagious . You messed up and God hasn't given up on you . I've just have more sin experience than my kids .
You know , I've done things that I'm so ashamed of , like what , like what , and yet , but God but God , but God but God .
Ray . Everyone around you who you've had an influence on gravitates towards evangelism . In the midst of discipling , whether it's raising up kids or mentoring the next generation , how do we instill a heart for the lost in people's lives ?
Challenge them . That's what a normal biblical Christian does . You read the book of Acts . You cannot get over the fact that these men are putting their lives on the line to preach the gospel . The church exists as a tabernacle of witness in the wilderness .
We've been commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature and it seems that much of the church is doing everything else but that to go into the world to challenge unsaved people , to take the light into the darkness .
So that's why I'm so excited about our YouTube channel , because it goes out there and it not only reaches the lost but it equips Christians to do so . Because when you see an atheist as a Christian , most people see atheists as intellectuals , but they're really , really dumb because they believe respectfully yeah , they're respectful .
I'll call you guys tomorrow and say I shouldn't have said dumb , um , but they , they really do believe the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything and the qualifications that not there was nothing in the beginning . It's saying nothing was the creative force that gave us hummingbirds and flowers and birds and trees and all these things we see around us .
So when the Bible says an atheist is a fool , it's saying exactly what the case is , their foolish hearts are darkened , as the scriptures say , and so never be intimidated by an atheist . And that's one of the greatest things to learn is that you can go straight to his conscience .
You can circumnavigate that carnal mind which is in a state of hostility towards God . Just this morning I was talking to a young lady at college and I said the Bible says I've got a question for you . The Bible says that we're in a state of hostility towards God . The human mind , the carnal mind , is enmity towards God .
It's not subject to the law of God , neither can it be . It says we're enemies of God in our mind through wicked works . Are you an enemy of God ? Do you hate God without cause ? She says no , not at all . Ever used his name in vain ? She says yes .
And we discussed blasphemy , what it is , that no human being in history has had their name used as a cuss word , a substitute , forgive me , for human excrement , except Jesus Christ , only him . Why ? Well , jesus told us in John 7 , the world hates me because I testify
¶ Jesus and the Logos: A Connection Point
of its deeds that they're evil . And there's no greater contempt that you can show for a human being than to use their name as a cuss word , and Jesus is the only one in history that's had that . So when Christians learn that you can circumnavigate that hostility by doing what Jesus did and addressing the conscience , it takes heat out of the whole thing .
You don't have to be an expert in apologetics , you don't have to have an answer for every question they've got . All you have to do is show them their danger and that they need a savior . And once they see their danger they'll say thank you .
They don't see you as proselytizing , they see you as someone that loves them and wants to see them in heaven , not in hell , and they can hear by your tone . And so teach Christians to do that and to address the conscience , and we see more laborers being raised up and we get closer to seeing this world reached with the glorious gospel .
Amen Jeff .
Can I ask a question ? Yeah , when I see videos on the internet it's always between people having big debates like watch this person completely dismantle this other person in 30 seconds or less or whatever . Those always get more views In your actual conversations with people . What percentage of the people would you say are hostile in the conversation ?
Probably 5% 5% .
So 95% of the time it's just a regular conversation . Five percent of the time , it gets really hairy .
That's because I know where I'm going . I'm going to the conscience and the conscience bears witness with the commandments Romans 2.15 . And so the hostility goes down if you move away from the intellect . Stay with apologetics . You're going to get hostility because that's addressing the carnal mind . I use apologetics to begin a conversation .
Say do you ever think about suffering ? Why is this suffering ? Why did God create us with all these things ? We've got earthquakes , tornadoes , hurricanes , we've got cancer . We've got all these terrible things that are happening . Why ?
And that's playing with apologetics and just say well , you know we're living a fallen creation , so what's going to happen to you when you die ? Are you a good person ? Move straight from apologetics , the hostile hostility , to harmony the conscience and doing what Jesus did and doing what Paul did in Romans 2 . You say you shall not steal . Do you steal ?
You shall not commit adultery . You commit adultery when you look at Nathan . We're called to be little Nathans . You go up to someone . You know they've sinned against God . They're liars and thieves and blasphemers and adulterers , just like David , and you begin with apologetics to address their intellect , as Nathan did with David . The man had a lamb .
He gave him a little story and then he said you are the man . Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord ? It went from intellect to the conscience and that's when David cried I have sinned against God , and that's what we want to bring sinners to . We want to bring them to Psalm 51 .
Have mercy upon me , o God , according to your loving kindness , according to the multitude of tender mercies , blot out my transgressions . And so often I say to people , when we talk about sin and what Jesus did on the cross , are you sorry for your sins ? And they say , yes , I am . And this is a guy that was an atheist a few minutes before .
Are you sorry for your sins ? Yes , I am , I'm really sorry . And that contrition is so important . They're talking about driving on the freeway . I was reminded of an illustration I use . You're driving on a freeway , some guy cuts you off . And you're driving on a freeway , some guy cuts you off and you're doing 70 miles an hour . He could have killed you .
He's crazy and you just feel angry at him . I apologize , don't ruin the story . And you want to shake your fist at him . And he turns around as he overtakes you and he just looks back and says I'm sorry . Immediately my anger is dissipated by his contrition in an instant . It's gone , I want .
In an instant it's gone , I want to yell out it's okay , I'll do the same thing myself . Let's be friends . And that's exactly what contrition does in God's mind . A contrite heart he will not despise . It turns his anger away so his grace can be extended to us in an instant . So we're aiming at contrition because godly sorrow works repentance unto life .
And that's what we want to channel sinners into that knowledge that they've sinned against God , that he's angered but he's provided forgiveness through the cross . That's what producers of contrition are saying to someone .
The other day , when I was , when I might have been on a podcast , when I was discovered in my sins way back in 1972 , whoever looks upon a woman to lust for is committed adultery with her in his heart . An arrow hit my chest . Woe is me . I'm undone . But there was no contrition .
My whole thought was oh no , god's putting his finger on my most beautiful pleasure . Lust gives instantaneous pleasure . And God's saying it's wrong . And sorrow didn't come until a few minutes later when I saw the cross , what it cost the Father for my redemption , an agonizing cross so I could be forgiven .
So the cross produced contrition in my heart , made me sorrowful , and that's where we need to take sinners to preach Christ and Him crucified .
Man Ray . I've never heard you use that metaphor before and that is so powerful .
And often when the way in which you evangelize I say over and over again you do it with so much humility and grace that it doesn't feel like you're judging the other person and I think to your point , it's like you've recognized you've been that guy that cut off God yourself and so you're just meeting them at an eye level perspective .
I think that's the heart and disposition . When you're talking to somebody about blasphemy and adultery and lying and theft , why don't they punch you in the nose ? Because you recognize that you are in desperate need of the gospel as well .
Jeff , I'm really curious about what you guys do over at Summit Ministries and you piqued my interest when you said Trevin Wax was a former student of yours . He's been a blessing to me . I've read Rethink Yourself . I've read his book on orthodoxy and he's got one called , I think , this Is Our Time , which I've read as well . So he's fantastic .
Tell me , tell us about Summit . What do you guys do ? We've been talking about discipleship , the next generation . What role does Summit play in that next generation ?
Well , oscar , there are two things that we're doing . We produce curriculum for churches , christian schools , home schools , even public schools . Even Christian students in public schools in 12 different states can take an hour a day and study a biblical worldview .
The program that he came to and Megan Basham and Sean McDowell , who I know is over here with y'all a lot the program they came to was a two week long experience in Colorado or in Georgia , both in mountain locations , where students come and we bring them in contact with some of the top Christian thought leaders who love Jesus , want everyone to come to a
knowledge of the truth , but they are also experts in philosophy or economics or areas where these students will probably run into some trouble when they get to a college or university . And then for two weeks , 180 to 200 students will gather , ask questions , dialogue , listen to lectures , learn and grow one-on-one mentoring , small groups .
All of this just to really form a community around the idea that Jesus is the truth and it literally changes the course of their lives . It's 16 to 22 . 16 to 22 . And we continually ask the students how did this affect you ? How are you doing now ? Even 10 years later ? We still ask the students how did this affect you ?
How are you doing now , even 10 years later ? We still are in touch with them and we just got back our results from our 10-year survey .
86% of them say they are still living strong in a biblical worldview , even 10 years after the fact , as opposed to what have a lot of churches experienced , which is 70% of young adults , by the time they reach their mid twenties , are no longer even proclaiming to be Christians . So what is it that makes that big difference ?
And I think there are really three things that relate to discipleship . The first one is we help students take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ . Second Corinthians , 10 , five , that everything in the world is under the lordship of Jesus Christ everything your economics class , your philosophy class , your engineering class , all of it .
The second thing is to not be taken captive Colossians 2.8 . There are bad ideas out there false worldviews , counterfeits and you need to be able to identify those counterfeits so that you can stand against them .
I mean , you can recognize a counterfeit bill if you're very familiar with real bills , but that doesn't tell you how to find the person who's making the counterfeit and stop them .
It doesn't tell you how to develop the justice system where that person can be prosecuted , the laws that need to be passed in order for the prosecution to take place , what kind of punishment is appropriate . All of those kinds of things . You realize , oh man , there's so much more than just identifying it .
You have to really know that it's a counterfeit and then be able to turn more strongly toward the truth . And then the third one is to set the captives free . So don't be taking captive or take every thought captive . Don't be taking captive . Set the captives free . So don't be taken captive or take every thought captive . Don't be taken captive .
Set the captives free , which we already talked about 2 Timothy 2 , 24 to 26 . If you take those three things at the heart of it , I think that's the kind of discipleship that really has a profound impact on people's lives forever and enabling them to turn around and be the ones who are evangelists for God's truth , revealed through Jesus Christ in our culture .
Wow , ray , you've made a career out of making counterfeit dollars . Yes , how do you feel about that ?
We have millions of million dollar bill . Gospel tracts , literally millions of them . Yeah , gospel tracts , literally millions .
Yeah , over a hundred million have been given away , sold , which is amazing .
I saw them . They were in a locked cage outside Out front .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , we'll unlock it for you . And then , jeff , how about yourself ? If somebody wants to hear more about your work personally , follow along . What's the best avenue for ?
them ? Yeah . How can they support your ministry and mention that book again ? Yeah .
I would love for anybody who's listening , who's 16 to 22 , or if you have children or grandchildren who are in that age , bring us into the same orbit . Summitorg is our website . We want them to come here . We believe that most young people are really curious . They want to know what's true .
They do not want to be lost and lonely and depressed and anxious anymore . They want to understand the truth and they want to believe in it . Not just to feel differently , but to live differently , and that's the kind of student we're looking for . So if you are one or know one , then just go to summitorg and you can find out more .
I do a podcast there where I'm a learner , I wanna , I'm curious , I learn all of the time , and so what I love about my podcast is I invite one guest on at a time of 45 minutes to an hour . I get to ask them all the questions that I want to ask .
45 minutes to an hour , I get to ask them all the questions that I want to ask , and then other people can sit in on it . It's just called the
¶ Encountering Students’ Curiosities
Truth Changes Everything podcast with Dr Jeff Myers , and then the book I mentioned is called Truth Changes Everything .
And it's available on Amazon .
You can go to Amazon or wherever you like to buy books . You can see that book when they sell good books .
You know , something that's interesting about raising the next generation whether you're raising kids or talking to them is that it's not enough to just teach them Bible stories .
They need to be equipped to understand the false gospels , the lies , the other stories being told in this world , and they need to be able to understand how to interpret those things and then understand the beauty of the one true gospel . I've shared before in this podcast . We play a game in my home and it's called find the lie .
So I give my kids a dollar every time they find a lie , whether it's in a movie , a book , a song , and we'll be sitting there watching a movie . You know , and , and and . Someone will say something like you know , you just got to be true to your heart . And boom , one of my kids' hands will pop up Lie , all right , what lie was it ? We hit pause .
What's the lie ? He said you know , we , we , we just got to find ourselves in our own heart or whatever . Why is that a lie ? It's a lie because our hearts are deceitful and desperately sick . We need to find truth in God . All right , that's a buck for you . You must be a very wealthy man . There are a lot of lies out there .
My kids are wealthy , but one of the other things that I do as well is I pray a blessing over my kids when I drop them off at school , when it's my turn to do drop-offs , and the prayer of blessing and guidance for them every time is guide them , help them know truth from lies , whether they find it from teachers , books , friends or even in their own hearts
. Help them know truth from lies . That's the blessing that I give my kids when I drop them off , literally at the drop-off line in school every single day . And so , jeff , your guys' ministry , the work that you're doing is doing exactly that .
It's helping people understand truth from lies , and I really we greatly appreciate all the work that you're doing out there . Guys , thank you so much for spending some time with us here on the Living Waters podcast . We appreciate you listening to our silliness and hopefully today you are encouraged to also find the truth from lies in your own lives .
And , if not , listen to Jeff's podcast , because this is all we got for you , that's it . Thank you for joining us on the Living Waters podcast . The ultimate cure for insomnia .