Hi, I'm Projessica Rodkin.
Welcome to season six of our New Zealand Herald podcast The Little Things.
And I'm Louise Arie. As you may well know, in this podcast, we talk to experts and find out all the little things you need to know to improve different areas of your life. We cut through all the confusion and overload of information out there to just try and help your silfl fly your life really hopefully. Yeah and us, Yeah, yeah, totally. Hey, can I ask a quick question? Have you got your hat to have your hearing checked yet? What? Sorry, God, that was a joke anyway, No, I haven't known.
No, It's just I've just noticed a couple of things in the last few weeks. And I think over Easter for some reason, we were watching the six PM news, which we never sit down and watch, and we have some very very good news readers in this wed and we were sitting there and this story came on and the presenter said a man and his corkies were arrested in the UK for damaging an Air Force aircraft. And I was just sitting there going, why do he have
his cookies with him? Was trying to make some sort of comment on you know, he's a support of the queen or something. Just soper sad that you take your corkies with you if you're going to kind of, you know, to face these I don't know. It was so weird and I turned and I looked at my partner and he just looked me. Meant a man in his forties. I've just been rifting on the fact that there was this article but about a man and his.
Corkies and gone isn't too small to even so I've done this huge rift on it.
He's like a man in his forties. I'm like, oh, okay, so there were no corkies. I was like, it's like, no, no, Corky left the corkies a home. Yeah, but this has been happening a little bit and I kind of just don't want to go because they're just going to say something to me that I hear so often at the moment, which is, well, it's okay for your age say that that's kind of I mean, look between boob skin, cervix.
Is until your eyes.
Oh my ayes, that's bloody terrible yeap, yes, it just look I can't say too much because I'm actually really bad at looking after that too, And there is actually a really good study going on at the university. If you're between forty five and fifty five, you can go. They're going to study the perimdopausal eye, which I think is very cool. So you're going to sign up for that one you get twenty dollars cool.
I probably do need to do that as well, because I'm finding i'm sending off I always just write cheers Francisca at the end of my emails, but the mbox that that the print is very small, and I've noticed actually have been sending off emails going cheese, Francisca.
It's just been automatically changing cheese. If I haven't noticed how people are going cheese, you know?
That is?
She like, what is?
I have an extraordinary amount of floaters, but I have always had them. And the other day I had a bit of migrain and I was looking at my white ceiling and I and they just I was like, how do you even see out of these eyes of Luis? There's so many floaters. So that's another thing. I don't don't think they can do anything.
About those that stage and stage.
Yeah, and no, I need to go to keep tacking all these things off totally, totally right to today's We have talked to the fabulous Lucy Hoane about her book, now a best seller.
How will I get through this?
About some of the unwelcome events life throws at us? But what about the everyday negative thoughts and criticisms that undermine our general wellbeing and can sabotage our joy and resilience in ways we might never even realize are hurting us, or worst, we do realize, but we feel unable to shift the pattern.
I mean, you've known me a long time, Franchis scat, I can. I can like go into a downward spiral pretty bloody fast, and some if I get bad feedback or just hear some negative news, I don't seem to spiral upwards nearly at the same rate. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
It's just like an oil price. You rock it up and you float down like a feather.
Oh thanks love. Even though like academically right, I know it's and I know and understand the principles of mindfulness and things just being as they are, but it can be quite hard sometimes to keep that negativity at bay. It's not anxiety or depression. It's just feeling blah or a little bit sorry for myself or for someone else.
Or for the world.
So how do you manage unwelcome negative thoughts or you're inner self critic?
Francisca Well, I work in radio.
True, I work in the media, and you know, one of the joys of my job has been able to communicate with our audience through calls or texts and things. But not everybody does communicate on the topic. And look, I have no problem with people having completely different opinions for me. I enjoy being challenged thinking about other people's perspectives. But a few people do like to get personal, so I have developed a pretty thick skin around it about who to listen to and who not to listen to,
and when to listen and when not to. But look, I'm often amazed at the number of very talented people who I speak to on the Sunday session who will say that they've got imposter syndrome. They don't feel like they belong, they don't they don't feel like they should be there, that they're not capable of, you know, doing a job or that they're currently doing in things.
And I.
Find that sad that a you know, like negative thoughts or sort of self criticism and things could stop people from doing things, trying new things, or have confidence to doing.
And some of that will be what the world has always told us, and particularly maybe for women and certainly for middle age one who can start to feel a little bit invisible. And some of it will be in a critic that believes that stuff or who's internalized that stuff. And I'd really like to get to the bottom of that idea that we can change our responses to negative feedback or criticism or or even learn from it. You know, we're always into growth here, Francisca, aren't we.
That we are?
We've got the perfect person to help us out today. Carl McDonald as a registered to psychotherapist with over twenty years clinical experience across both public and private mental health services. KYL is hugely passionate about educating the public around mental health and emotional wellbeing, as well as being a vocal
advocate for improving our mental health services. He's chair of the Psychotherapy Board of Altera, New Zealand, an author economist for the New Zealand Herald and Here is a colleague of mine at News talks. He'd be as co host of the Nutters Club every Sunday night.
Kyle, welcome. Thank you so much for being with us.
Surely caught.
It fantastic to have you here, data to talk through all these all these things that we might go here, there, and everywhere. But I think we'll get there in the end.
That's all right. I'm sure we'll follow along.
Basically, we wanted you to give us a bit of a hand because as we get older, we say that we give less fucks about what people think about us, and yet I think negative comments and criticism still can hit a nerve with us.
Yeah, it still can.
I mean, I think we have to acknowledge that what other people think of us really matters, no matter where we are in life. I guess it depends on who it is that we're may matter though.
It's a very good point because I was resting all my faith in what other people think of me as none of my business. But maybe it is depending on who the person is.
Yeah, well, sort of warming up for this today, I was thinking about the fact that I think what's really important with this is to think about the relationship, So where the criticism is coming from and who the criticism or negative feedback is coming from. But you know, it's this old sort of Buddhist idea which I think is often misinterpreted, which is that it's really important to have compassion for our enemies or compassion for people to who
hurt us. And that's not about being nice or pleasant or forgiving people or making it okay. It's about giving some thought to what's going on for the other person when they're behaving in ways that are harmful to us. And so I sort of break it down into you know, is it a bad day, is it thoughtlessness?
Or is it meanness?
And I think if we think about those three categories, then we can sort of work our way through what's actually happening when somebody's giving us a hard time. So that first one, is it a bad day, is someone who might just actually be in a bad place themselves, And that's very much kind of important to then think about, well, that's a the end problem. You know, if it's clear that someone's having a bad day and they're taking it
out on us, it can still be hurtful. But I think then it's actually about trying to recognize that what's going on for them is theirs, and I don't have to pick that up. If it's thoughtlessness, that's a little bit more tricky, particularly if it's a relationship that matters, because then it's about actually trying to let the other person know what they might not be thinking about or might not have in their mind about us. That has meant that they've lashed out in some way and in
some ways. If it's someone who is just mean by nature, then it's kind of the easiest one, right, It's like dag gone.
Yeah, good point.
I've said this to you a lot over the years, and I say to my kids all the time, especially maybe when they were learning to drive, and maybe someone would be very aggressive, l quite rude to them, will do something stupid, you know, I say, you just do not know what is going on in that car. You do not know what kind of day that person has happened. This could be the worst day of their life. And
I think that is really important to remember. But I remember one kid turning around instead of looking at me and going what if it's not, I was like, Okay, we'll just complicat.
Well, we'll never know, We'll never know. Let's just stick with that.
So I quite like a bad day because the bad day stops and me getting worked up about something.
Yes, and also you know if you're having a bad day and you might lash out, but we would probably apologize quite quickly. That you've got to have that. If you're the person giving that, you'd usually say I'm sorry, I'm just having a really terrible day or something. So I guess this thing, this process that you've just described, means that the person receiving the information does have to take a beat. Yeah, we have to.
Keep our brain online, and that I think is always the challenge. So you know, if we think about just a bit of a mouthful really, which is we talk about this idea and therapy of emotional regulation, which is basically, how do you control the volume knob of your emotional distress on any given day. And so to be able to do that thinking, we do have to be regulated enough to keep the you know, the front part of our brain above our eye brain online to think about
the other person. So you know, that is important to recognize that sometimes if we're losing our rag, actually the thing we need to do is calm ourselves down.
First, and it could be you know, you need to take a moment and go, Okay, am I tired?
Am I stress? What's going on? Yeah? Why am I reacting this way?
Yeah?
We often talk about it on the show. Is the boring stuff with you know, sleeping, eating, minimizing alcohol and drugs, getting the exercise, you know, doing all that stuff which everyone goes, oh, no, I should do it, But actually it's always a good place to start women trying to assess what's going on with ourselves.
There's also that saying, you know, never take criticism from someone you wouldn't take advice from. And this comes back to that what you're talking about the person who's delivering it. And I think that that that's a nice saying to have, but I don't know if it's quite that easy. It's a nice thing to have in the back of your mind. But then what if that criticism comes from someone that you would take advice from.
Well, I think one of the hard ones which blows that role apart, is taking advice from your taking feedback from your children. Yeah, because a lot of times, you know, I've got two teenage girls or nearly a twelve year old who thinks she's sixteen and a fifteen year old who thinks she's eighteen. But that can be quite challenging because our kids do tend to you know, throw it back at us, and fair enough too a lot of the time, but it can be quite hard as a parent to take that feedback.
I think I agree completely. And then they move out of home and they reflect on their you know, having their own life somewhere else, and they reflect on their home life or bring something back to you, and you're like, I wish you'd said something at the time.
Yeah, yeah, well, hopefully come back to us and say thank you so much for well they're is a bit of that, obviously, but yeah.
Just ever so briefly, when they realize that they have to do their own washing and cooking and cleaning up, and they are actually responsible for themselves, then there's a little bit of gratitude comes your way, doesn't it. I find negative criticism or constructive criticism or negative comment. I find they really only sting when there's an ounce of truth to it. Yeah, you know, so for me, it's about being able to go okay, oh that's just sitting
with me. It's really niggling. I'm still thinking about that a few days later. And that is generally, if I'm really honest with myself, is because there's something there that maybe I.
Don't really want to have to think about or face or deal with, but then actually it can be very useful to do so.
Yeah, and I think that's the painful bit, right, And again, if we think about that idea of emotional regulation, that pain, that what we commonly think of is having touched a nerve, That pain can get in the way of us being able to think through what's actually being said to us, because actually there's a you know, criticism is easy to think of as a negative thing, but I often think about it as feedback, which can be positive or negative.
And a lot of time that's where our growth in learning is, which isn't easy and isn't necessarily pain free. But like you say, I mean again that that's one of the sort of the big ways when I was thinking about this topic today, one of the big difficult bits is that actually, the more we can increase our own self awareness, the more we can be honest with
ourselves about where our own weak spots are. You know, do we have a tendency to fly off the handle or you know, to get frustrated when we're tired, or do we have a tendency to get angry, or are we not very patient sometimes at the end of the day with our kids. Then actually that opens up the possibility of taking responsibility. I mean, I was like the way that AA or Alcoholics Anonymous put it, which is that actually we have to take care of our own
side of the street. So it's a challenging idea, but I think a lot of times, particularly with people we like or respect, if they're saying something to us, the question we should be asking is are they right? What do I need to hear in this? What message can I take from what they're saying?
Because if you're a parent who's dealing with what you might think a difficult a difficult phase with your children, or you're at work and you're not things aren't going great at work, and you know, you're not really interested in maybe what your boss or you know, someone seeing your has to say to you, it can be quite hard to stop and take that beat and take things on board.
Absolutely, And I think, you know, the professional environment's kind of a whole other category in and of itself, really, but I think that it's also okay with feedback to be able to say, particularly probably with family members more than a workplace. Actually, now is not the time I'm happy to talk about this. But actually I'm finding myself getting quite upset right now about this. Maybe we can
come back to this. And so it's often useful when we think about giving feedback to strike when the iron's cold, as we say that the worst time to give someone feedback is when you're in the midst of the argument. No one takes feedback at that moment, but actually being able to then sit down calmly later, which is often the temptation then, of course, to avoid the topic and then actually take some time to talk it through then.
But it actually doesn't.
That doesn't that feed into other aspects of our lives and personal workplaces, like if you're pulled aside and someone has some comments to make about your performance and things, Actually, isn't it good to go Okay, that's really interesting? Can I go away and think about that? You know, you're immediately removing yourself from getting defensive or from getting angry, or from you know, getting upset. You can just give yourself an opportunity to walk away and think about it.
I mean, it sort of works across the board, i'd imagine.
I think so. And I think another great strategy is always sleep on it because that slows us down immediately.
Right.
Hopefully most of the time we wake up more regulated the next day than we were the night before. I think in the professional environment those categories still apply to by the way I mean, I think one of the big problems which a lot of people find their way into therapy because of is is what I would call the mean boss, right, So, you know, the bullying problem. So, yes, it can be hard to take feedback at work, particularly
if it is critical. But actually a lot of times I think that bullying at work and struggling with someone who consistently takes their stuff out on employees is one of the things that often gets people into therapy because
it can be really debilitating. So you know, when we think about taking responsibility and processing and regulating ourselves and doing all of those things, that's really important to say that actually, sometimes if we encounter someone as just being mean, we actually have to take action to protect our side.
I couldn't agree more. I think that is where the buck stops, and that it's beyond your rational brain because I think that is where it just swirls around in your head so much and there is no and it's that fairness thing and all of those things. And I think we do have to recognize that there are occasional, definitely situations where you need to seek outside help. And
you're also entitled to say stop. You know, you don't need to tell that person, but I tell yourself that there is that option of going to get professional help to work that through psychologically and physiologically, because it has impacts on everything that's really interesting to me, just something that's going on in my life at the moment, not me Persley, I'm not being bullied.
And just on the side. Out of people that do come and get therapy, how many are coming for a personal problem or work problem or I just I don't know if you guys ever have a moment where you're able to kind of tally it up in a certain way.
But yeah, I mean it's a tricky question in a way, because I guess the way that I look at anyone who lands in my office is they're there for a stated reason, right, which is what traditionally we kind of called the symptom quote. And then of course there's the background as to why that symptom has emerged. So often someone will arrive in therapy because they are struggling with something in the present day, but there's a story to that particular trigger or nerve that's been hit for them.
And so again not minimizing the impact of bollying, but often people find that those dynamics that they experienced early in their family and their childhood show up in workplaces where they react to someone who's behaving badly but with the volume turned way up, and that's what throws them off course or lands them in my office.
And that's what I liked about something you've said. I think is regardless of the responses you may have developed to this point, you're not locked into those behaviors. So that's talking about the patterns over our lifetime, the pat familial patterns, when you've gone out on your own, all of those kinds of things.
As long as you recognize that that's a pattern.
Well that's right, Yeah, I suppose. So how do we unlock ourselves from these from these habitual responses?
Yeah, well that's where the really annoying therapist answer shows up, which it depends really, I mean, I think we have to make a judgment call for ourselves, right, how harmful and damaging is what's going on for us versus how willing and how capable are we have actually met managing
our side of the street. I mean, you know, I think most of the times we know when bullying behavior is really egregious, but we can often look at tricky dynamics as opposed to bullying, or those people that we just find annoying in the.
Office, even just a friend that always sort of has a backhanded compliment, or just you just wonder if it's a you know, yeah, as.
An opportunity to learn, you know, that's the challenge and find, you know, being able to resource ourselves, whether that's talking to another friend or a family member or partner about
how we can manage that. I mean think a lot of time it comes down to that again, that really boring idea of how do we maintain good boundaries and how do we firmly, calmly and compassionately stand up for ourselves, which might actually involve giving the person some feedback and response and saying, actually, I hear what you're saying, but actually when you say this, it's actually quite hurtful to me, or your timing is always bad or actually I'm okay
with the fact that I do that. That sounds like your problem.
I love that.
Did you write that, because I'm going to say to I'd just like to say firmly, calmly, and compassionately and dot dot dot dot dot.
I love. I love adding the compassion in there. I'm just sort of thinking about the different types of people, the people who is just who you encounter and your work life and your every day life over the years, and some of them are people that you because I think, I mean not to go into any agrams, but I think I'm a challenger, and I don't know where I haven't actually analyzed where that's come from. And I know that if I can meet other people and go, why
aren't you standing up for yourself? Not to me, by the way, why aren't you blah blah blah, or why have you put up with that? Or are you going to do something about that? And I always, I'm now as mature, thinking, well, obviously that's the way. Maybe that's kept peace in their life for them.
Yeah, or actually that they were never taught or supported or you know that actually they experienced enough anxiety or fear provoking situations in their childhood that what you find quite naturally is he might be quite terrifying for them. So it does come back to that idea of compassion in the sense of being able to try and think it through from the other person's shoes. And then of course the opportunity to support people that we care about to do those things is great. I mean, I often
think about it. People often experience me as quite direct, which is quite funny because I don't think of myself as direct. I just think of myself as honest. But actually it's important to remember sometimes that a lot of times we dance around the truth in life. I mean, I kind of think therapy is more a search for actually trying to figure out what's true than you know,
what feeling good or feeling calm. That actually a lot of times we fall ourselves with little eyes and denials, and so sometimes the truth can be quite confronting, but ultimately it's the best way to find your way through these situations.
I think, what is happening psychologically to our brains when we hold on to self critical thoughts or perceptions about ourselves.
Yeah, so that's a big question. I mean, I think most of us have a critic of some description, and it's useful from the point of view that it's one of the ways that we motivate ourselves to get better.
For me, it's about what sort of balance do we have, And I often think about this as a balance between the carrot and the stick, you know, so that old idea that we can you can get a donkey to move forward with a on a stick, or you can hit it with the stick, and most of us in our childhood, I think probably experienced a balance of those things positive warm encouragement and reward versus criticism and a
kick up the bum metaphorically hopefully not literally. And so recognizing what is that balance within us, I think is often a good place to start, because when we talk about people who struggle with a self critics, that they don't have enough of the carrot. And so that's about then learning how do we warmly encourage ourselves and make sure that we're rewarding ourselves for the things that we do well as well as giving ourselves a bit of
a push when we need to. And when you talk to people who have a really ingrained self critic, they're often frightened on some level that if they don't do that, then they won't do anything, because actually that motivation comes from that sense of get up, get moving, you know, get your ars into gear, because that's often been the voice that they've experienced in childhood.
Oh man, I'm trying not to reflect on my parenting or how I was parented, because I don't think I had particularly either of those things. And that's not a criticism dad, as in I don't really recall. I think it's also generational thing. I think parents parented differently. They kind of let you get on with you well.
Probably suggest without wanting to, you know, psycho analyzing on your podcast, that there's probably quite a good balance. If it feels like neither sort of jumps out at you, then I think that's probably quite a good balance.
It's interesting, though, working out what you feel that your child might need in that moment as well, because I can remember coming off I think my son was about twelve. Week it came off the football field and I went great game, great and you know what I mean, it wasn't a great game. I didn't play well.
He says, you do that all the time.
I bring home a piece of art and you go, mum, you just go that's amazing and it's not. And I went, okay, cool, would you like me to be a little bit more honest, because yes, anyway, A couple of games later, pretty average game, sorry, young man, pretty average game. He came off and he said, oh gosh, and my partner said something positive and I went, oh, well, to be honest with that, second half really wasn't great. It just looked like you weren't paying a huge amount
of attention. And I wasn't nasty, I wasn't mean. I just called it how it was, honestly. The kid just what We went, well, that's a bit mean. Why are you talking to me like that? That's not usually positive and encouraging, is that? And I said, well, two weeks ago you told me that everything I say which is positive, If everything is positive, then it can't be true. So I'm just giving you a bit of a home truth today. But would you like me to go back down? We went yes, please, Well I tried.
I think that's really interesting because he was probably feeling a bit rubbish about himself when he came off the field that out of the time. Then you did the nice encouragement thing.
He's like, you know what, don't need it today. Yeah, it was just a bad game.
And then he came off thinking he played brilliantly and there's his mother guing and that was a bit average.
It's funny that I've often heard my kids say, well, yes, I know you think I'm wonderful. It doesn't count coming from you.
Yeah, there is that.
That's the challenge.
I need the world to endorse that somehow.
So a bit of it's good to be self critical because it probably means you've got a little bit of self awareness to a good extent.
And then I think I.
Want it to be limiting you and knocking your confidence and stopping you doing things.
Yeah, when that tips out of balance, I think is what we can think of as the self critical problem. And then it's about recognizing that that drives our mood down. I mean, most people who experienced depression and will have
it an absolutely outrageous self critic. Part of the challenge I think often is that when that self critic is really strong, and I mean often I have these conversations and therapy with people who experience depression, the problem is that they think that the criticism is one hundred percent true, not that it is a voice in their head telling them things about themselves based on how they feel, but it's just the truth. They are rubbish, they are no good,
and they need to just try harder. So that's often really challenging if to do on your own. What we need when we have that kind of self critic is we actually need relationships around us with people who care about us and trust us that we trust that can
start to give us feedback that contradicts that. And I think also often when it's really one entrench that's when therapy and medication is required to actually because it's mood driven, right, If we feel it that strongly, then our brain considers it our feelings to be facts.
So it's coming back to that whole I might feel a certain way, I might think a certain way, but the reality could be quite different.
Absolutely, So it comes back to we get to the truth of the manner, right, which is that actually we might have a really distorted idea about our abilities, which can sometimes motivate us to try harder, but a lot of times we'll actually just drive our mood into the gutter.
It's really interesting.
Yeah, so what do you do about it.
Then, well, medication and therapy is kind of If we genuinely believe those things to be true to the point where they cause depression, then medication lifts our mood. And interestingly, a lot of the antidepressants actually also enable our brain to be more flexible when it's learning. So then the therapy comes in and helps us to hopefully learn some different mental habits and some different ways of understanding our story.
That shift that into it's not that I'm bad, it's that I have come to believe myself to be bad for a story that makes sense to me.
Oh that makes me feel a bit sad. It makes me think of that line I can't read what movie is at the end of it. I think it's this some guy and he says, in life, I failed way more than I've succeeded, but blah blah blah. And I remember thinking, I remember watching, well, you've obviously had some really positive experiences in your life, you know like that. You think of entrepreneurs who fail more than they succeed and so forth, but they end up ultimately being successful.
It's like, yeah, you really believe in yourself and that must make an enormous difference in people's lives, or do they just not know themselves. I don't know. I'm baffled.
Yeah, well, anything out of balance is a problem, right, I mean, if someone has an absolutely unbalanced positive idea about themselves, you know, they can end up doing all sorts of crazy things and self belief that they're always right.
We might be thinking about the same, Pierce, And when you.
Say that, yeah, that makes global headlines frequently.
You're listening to the little things.
In our guest to a psychotherapist, car McDonald talking about dealing with criticism and negative thoughts will be back after the break.
Welcome back. You have given us so many great insights so far. I'm just curious, you know, can you explain to us. We hear the words negativity bias quite often. Can you explain to us what that is and how that impacts us?
Yeah, so that's it's a really interesting idea. I mean, essentially, what the negativity bias suggests is that we on average as a species have a tendency to be slightly off center in terms of how we interpret the world. So there's been lots and lots and lots of studies done
over the years. I mean One of the ones which is quite challenging is that people who experience depression tend to see the world more accurately, which is suggests that actually to be optimistic as a slight stage of delusion, which is kind of you know, challenging, but a little bit fun to play with as well when we already
think about it. The negativity bias comes from essentially that idea that when it comes to survival as a species, we have over the millennia that we've evolved been better off to be slightly negative and slightly anxious as a way to avoid threat. And so the people who have a wildly optimistic idea about themselves and their own abilities are the ones who tend to fall off a cliff because they think they could climb it, or don't see fear in those situations, and so do the things that
are frightening. Now. Obviously, you know, variation means that we still have people like that in our population, but that on average, over time, seeing the world slightly negatively and being slightly fearful is a pretty good survival strategy. The problem, of course now is that actually in a modern world, we are by and large, thankfully in a place like altet or largely safe and largely protected from threats. It means that our brain is looking for ways to understand
that bias in ways that become self confirming. So even though we might have a happy life and be relatively safe, we can still find ourselves being really worried and negative about things that in the grand scheme of things. You know, it's the old first world problem, right, because our brain tends to look for those things because of the bias.
All read somewhere recently wallowing is a privilege. Yeah, it was quite good.
You know that the sabertooth tiger is not actually at the front door. And I do get that, and I think I was probably wildly optimistic. And then a couple of things happened, including a breast cancer diagnosis, and I did fall off a cliff because I, you know, I in my head, you know, done all the right things to avoid that. And I do remember someone. And this is a good thing for people to remember. When they
go for scans of various kinds of things. We're looking for something, we're looking for the absence of something or the inclusion of something. Going for a scan isn't a protective factor on its own it might be protective factor
for discovering something early. Once I sort of got that through my head, I realized that actually all of the things that I'd done had probably saved my life in the end, just because you know, if they hadn't found something, or if they hadn't gone looking for something, we wouldn't have had a diagnosis and had a treatment plan. So you know, you can, you have. But that was with a lot of psychological help, by the way I came to that.
Around to that, I mean, I think health is quite a good example often of that negativity bias, isn't it. I mean, you know, optimistic to the point where and I mean, unfortunately, sadly, we often see this with blokes, you know, don't turn up to their GP until they've had a heart attack. At fifty I've literally never been to the Doctor've never had an injury. I'm fine, My
health is completely fine. Actually, having a little bit of worry, enough worry to get us to the GP regularly, to have the checks to take the medication when it's prescribed, is actually quite beneficial keeps us alive.
How do we deal with our children and our teenagers and in a general way.
That's a whole other podcast series, isn't it No?
When it comes to dealing with criticism, and you know, you mentioned it sort of struck a bit of a nerve with me at the very beginning when you said, you know, it could be quite difficult taking criticism from your children, and I have had to take a beat and walk away and think about it and go, actually, that's really interesting the comment you made, and that's how you see it, And I'm going to take that on board, and I'm going to listen to that, and I'm going
to you know that that probably took about fifteen years of raising children before I finally kind of switched into that.
So how do you know?
And gosh, it's a difficult world out there these days with social media and being online and just still there's still nasty odd kid in the playground and things. How do you give our kids sort of positive and with a healthy confidence.
Well, the foundation stones, of course, are making sure that we have taken the time and if we feel like we haven't taked the time now to build that relationship and connection, you just you can't fake that, and you can't I don't think you can do a lot of the things that are required to parent teenage as well without that. So if you know, in your own assessment of how is Mike, do I know what's going on
in my kid's life? Am I connected? Am I having conversations with them as regular as they will sort of
tolerate it. But also I think the trick with teenagers is recognizing those opportunities, you know, when they randomly show up in the lounge because screen times run out and they want to talk to you, and you're like, I'm so tired, this is the last thing I want to do, but actually taking that opportunity because they are precious when they happen, and recognizing the roundabout ways that kids will often ask for help too, whether it be you know,
through their mood deteriorating or being in a bad mood or grumpy for a number of days. So we have to set that foundation stone and we have to create opportunities to stay connected. Often that starts young, So if you've got little kids and you're listening, that time in
just is really it pays off later. So having said that, then I think it's about recognizing that actually it's our job as parents to still protect them from the world, even though you know, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year olds will act like they're completely fine and they don't need our help. It is our job to still coach and protect and that comes down to all those things that we talk about these days in terms of helping them manage screen time. I'm not a big fan of banning things because I
think we lose the opportunity to learn. But it is our job as parents to make sure that we're on top of the technology, that we understand how to get devices out of their rooms or have them shut off after nine or ten o'clock, whatever it might be, so they have that downtime for their brain to relax, but also creating opportunities for family connection, because again we can't get around the fact that actually it's the old dinner
table research. You know that it's really really clear that family who eat together on a regular basis tend to have better mental health across the board. So we have to make sure that as parents we're still working all the way through adolescents to keep our kids mentally balanced.
And if they've left the nest and they're in way at university or away working or overseas, have you got is it a simple is there a question we can ask, is there a hack that will get an honest answer? Like is it as simple as how are you really? Or is there something else we should be looking for? Because I've definitely missed a couple of cues and gone, oh, I didn't know that was going on, you know, later on.
I think that will just happen, right, And as I think again, there's an old famous quote by a British psychoanalyst called Donald Winnicott that says that when from the moment children are born, we're grieving their loss, because the whole process of parenting is that from you know, literally
the moment they emerge, they're leaving us. And so some of that is tolerating the distance and recognizing they might choose not to tell us directly about things, and we can feel upset about that, but I don't think we necessarily need to feel bad or critical about that as parents, as long as we maintain that availability. And I sort of my rule of thumb with adolescence, and I think it'll probably be the same as they move into their twenties, is we want to be slightly on the side of annoying.
So what I mean by is that our kids should be telling us to go away rather than not, because if they're telling us to go away, it means that we're actually providing slightly more than they need and they get to be in charge of how much they take. So you know, the daily text or you know, the phone call is oh you're calling again, mum. It's like, well, you probably about right if that's the response.
That you're getting.
Oh that makes me feel good too.
By that, I do a bit of work at the university with Cure kids, and you know, look at their state of the childhood health and ah Rower and you know we've gone up from one in five young people reporting serious psychological distress to sorry one and five from one and twenty. So do you have any insights onto what's into what's going on there?
Such a complicated question, isn't it? Because the thing that's really confusing I think with that research is that when you look at least as I understand it, correld me if I've got this wrong or if it's been updated. But it's also true that that gen Z and gen alpha are smoking less, they're using drugs less, they're drinking less, and starting drinking at a later age, their teenage pregnancies
are down initiating sexual relationships as later. So it's kind of like they're doing all the right things.
I don't mean to be facetious, but are they having enough done well?
That's a really useful question, and I think one of the question that naturally comes out of that, which can easily skew into all sorts of unhelpful places, is our kids missing the opportunities to build resilience along the way. You know, it's not that our kids to shelter these days, because I think that that lands the blame on them, But is the one of the outcomes of a digital world and a world that is actually largely safe, meaning that they're not getting the scrapes and bumps and bruises
that builds that resilience. I mean, I don't know, but it's interesting to think about, and I think it's interesting to think about if that is the case, how do we actually enable them to have enough challenge to build that resilience, which might mean getting feedback from that your second half is rubbish.
Hey, Something else we wanted to touch on is there is stuff out there in the world which is outside of our control, which but you know, makes us feel very sad and sort of upset about and you know the world can actually feel a bit sort of relentlessly
negative at the moment. How how can we best protect ourselves and you know, from that negativity in the world, not just completely switching off from you know, our own values, well, yes, but also just putting yourself in a bubble, taking yourself away in a room.
Yeah. I always feel slightly conflicted when we say say this on air on news talks. They'd be the first thing you can just send the news off, because I think it is actually okay to be in a bubble.
You know.
The reality is that in New Zealand there's not a huge amount that we can do, certainly individually but even
at a national level, really to influence events. So I think it's about being able to recognize again, if we go back to those basics, you know, the sleeping and eating blah blah blah, our own mood and regulation will fluctuate day to day and week to week, and recognizing that some days we may have the capacity to engage in some days we may not, and it's okay on those days where we don't to actually just not and
that might sometimes be a matter of days. It might sometimes be a matter of weeks if we've got a lot on our plate. So it is about bringing that horizon in and actually, if all we're doing is going to work and engaging with our own family and that's all we can cope with, don't be critical with yourself,
that's okay. And to build inflexibility, So recognizing when we do have the capacity, it might be useful to engage a little bit more, particularly if the petrol prices are banging on the door or we're having to rebalance the budget because of reality. But I think it is okay to protect ourselves. And then I think the other thing is sort of figuring out in an honest way, whether you're the kind of person who benefits from more information or less. So I tend to be benefit from more information.
I listen to podcasts, I try and stay abreast of what's happening in the world because it helps me feel like I'm in control of the things that I need to understand, like petrol prices, like how to balance the
budget and all those things. But some people don't find that, And so being honest with ourselves about what's helpful and what isn't as opposed to what other people might tell us is helpful for us, or how we might feel, what we might get judged if we're not abreast of the latest tweet from Donald Trump, for instance.
Yes, I like to be in it. You're quite good at stepping away and finding other things to listen to.
You just sort of I have lately. I mean, you know, I'm a rabbit holeer, but but I yeah, I was on a run the other day actually, and started off with I can't even remember who it was anyway, something about all of what's going on in the world, and I was like, no, I need something brighter and listen to something completely great, you know, not vacuous. It was still interesting, and I just felt brighter and larger on
my feet. Literally, I do notice. I think that's really interesting what you say about the picture prices, because I have a seventeen year old boy and he hasn't really kept his eye on the ball, and I haven't. We don't talk around about it around that very precious in a table time, and yet the picture prices have made them go what is this about the picture prices? And then they're investigating, and then they're going oh shit, there's
a lot going on. But you know, I was sort of said, well, the picture prices are the last thing. You know. It's a terrible it's crappy and rubbish, and it's going to impact us, but there are people going through a lot worse. He's like, well, I know, I know now, but the picture prices are what prompt them to even never look. But you know, he's not going to start listening to podcasts about it.
But if we've got a world which is a lot more divisive and polarized and negative, is that making us more critical and judgmental?
Though I think there's quite a lot of evidence that over engaging in polarized debates unfortunately on social media, And this is one of my sort of bug bears about the so called youth social media debate is we should be having a general social media debate. It's very easy to point at the kids and say it's affecting them, but actually what I often say to Pearance is can you just sort of address your own phone news first?
Because kids follow and recognizing that again, it comes back to that where we started from about compassion and recognizing that actually we probably all need to be better at engaging with people who see the world differently, and social media isn't going to help. I mean, I'm certainly not going to be blameless in this. I really struggle if
someone has a really polarized different view than me. But I think the best thing that we can do is actually try and understand, whether that's in the conversation or try to understand from the point of view of thinking about why does this person see the world this way? What is it that is different for them from my circumstances, Because often the ability to you know, to have a view to understand the world is actually kind of a privilege.
Most people are generally just worried about, you know, getting enough gas in the tank and you know, balancing the budget, and it's really understandable people are reactive about that because it is It's pretty tricky that the evidence is that anxiety is on the rise worldwide, which is not a surprise. But I think that again, coming back to our own side of the street, how do we actually then just deal with that in our own day to day life,
And sometimes it might be helpful, you know. One of the strategies we often talk about with world events is finding a way to do something that means something to you to get engaged. So that might be going to a protest, it might be you know, joining a political party or of supporting particular causes. But actually it's also okay to not do that. So again it's figuring out what works for you.
That is one hundred percent what I needed to hear. It's all right to not do that and not be judged for not doing that, and not even give you a reason why or why not, as long as you know absolutely what it is the choice that you're making. We had to ban my husband from social media because he used to comment. He used to get into those stupid you know, it's mostly Facebook about when drivers were criticizing cyclists or cyclists are criticizing drivers and need back
and forward. He comment. I was like, I can't believe you're doing that. You're more intelligent than this. Why are you engaging in this. We're raising in the middle of raising our kids. For crying, Well, just really pusses me off when people get so upset about cycle ades, which all we on our bikes, and it's like, you know, you gotta let that go.
Well, yeah, and as hard, isn't it Because that's the whole machine of social media. I think the challenge is recognizing that that is helping nobody and likely achieve.
Yea because of the wrong kind of people to even have that debate with. And they have no power anyway.
Yeah, I'm sure you have, but you can put them at the research that says that arguing with people, he just reinforces their beliefs.
Not that's long in the past.
Card.
I'd like to firmly, calmly, and compassionately, thank you so much for your time today. And you're very balanced, sensible views about things. Yeah, that was absolutely fantastic.
Thank you so much, Thank you, my pleasure.
Thanks Kyle.
How lovely is Kyle?
I loved the bit where he was describing the three different kinds of people that you might be faced with, who are you know, critiquing you or putting some negative thoughts in your head? And I love the way you went from, Hey, these people might be having a bad day, so let's be compassionate about them. So then you know they're a bit thoughtless, so a bit average too. Literally, they are mean, they're a bit of a dick.
It's quite a but we do love it.
Broad I do love a menu.
I know.
No, it's given me kind of a something to go on.
There's not a lot of subtlety in it.
It's not kind to say, it's kind of you can quite easily kind of just know that. I found that really interesting, and I just think it's just a reminder when you hear something and someone says something to you and you you can feel yourself bristle, you can feel it hit, you can feel it land, just to remember to take a breath, take a moment.
Oh absolutely, just I mean, I was thinking, sometimes it's at the time, and sometimes it's at that two o'clock in the morning. We didn't discuss that, but that is but the same, the same antidote still applies. Breathe think about it, you know, and again sleep on it and deal with the morning. I was thinking, I didn't get to ask him, but is that old analogy? Don't go to be better? Angry thrown out because he was like,
it's important to sleep on it. And I think I'll remember that next time I'm having a late night conversation with either a child or a partner.
So I'm just going to sleep on that tonight.
I'll feel better in the morning because of course, we always feel better after we're rested. I also liked later on in the piece were he was talking about sleep, diet, blah blah blah. I, hey, we've just done a pod We've just credited a podcasts on your blah blah blahs.
But that's fine. We know that can be the point. But there is a lot of truth to that. And I think we would all say that we're a lot more that we can recognize when we might be a little bit more fragile or sensitive. If we stepped back and look at what was going on in our lives, you could probably go, oh, it's because of that, that that that, And I think that's good to remember give yourself a bit of grace kind of what.
Am I going through? What's going on in life?
But I also think I love the way he said, actually have a bit of negativity and a self critic isn't such a bad thing as long as it's balanced and you're open to contemplate and think about why you might feel that way and actually, can it be constructive?
And because you know, maybe I'm just being mean, but some of the most ghastly people out there are the ones who cannot self reflect no never wrong or anything to be.
Miserable, get them out of your life.
You know.
One thing I would like to just point out there though, that he did talk about this, and I think we need to remember this. If you are out there and you're feeling more sensitive than usual and you know yourself, therapy and or medication, you know those things are there.
They're important.
I know that they can be hard to access, and I know that they be on some people's means, but there's so many different ways. We've had a therapy EPSO where we talked about all the different things, including online resources. So you know, there is a difference between being able to work through rationally through negative feedback or just feeling a bit blah and then just overwhelming you.
If you want more from Carla's website is Psychotherapy dot NZ. He has a book called Shit Happens, Lessons for dealing with Life's up and downs, and you can also catch them on The Nutters Club every Sunday night on Newstalk zb. Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand held podcast series Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with the women in your life so we can all shake those negative thoughts.
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on other topics, head to inzid Herald dot co dot
Z okatch you next time on the Little Things