Hi.
I'm Louise Aria and this is season six of our New Zealand Herald podcast The Little Things.
And I'm Reid's good bradc Good to have you with us. As you may have noticed by now, we're releasing podcasts every two weeks this year. They're available at the same time Saturday mornings.
In this podcast, we talked to experts and we found out all the little things you need to know to improve different areas of your life. We like to cut through the confusion and overload of information out there to help simplify life if we can, we sure do.
Has it been run?
Yeah, no, it has been fine. But I do have a question for you. Yeah, how's your underwear game? Because mine I have just noticed, well, I think I must have bought all my undies at the same time and they've all just decided to kind of fall apart at the same time. But they're not good. You were in Holy Undies, I am, and I just think, at the stage of my life, are they like sexy Lacey Hio you just got the cotton boring undies? And I think
that what's happened in franchise scatters. I have spent my life looking after everybody else's needs, including their underwear needs, and I've just let mine go like it's the last priority. I don't know are other people like that.
Well, that's funny you should say that, because I put on some licers the other day and put my fingers through them and I just continue to wear them. And then I did say to my partner though, hey, look, if something happened to me in the night and you take it to the hospital, could you just check my underwear please? Because I mean you still think about that. I mean that was something that your parents, you know,
your mum said to you. You know that was that's an old fashion thing, you know, Well, what would happen if you were taken to hospital when your douty?
And I would love to just do a survey of medical freshness and say to you, even notice the underwear?
I don't think they do, but can I suggest for a woman of our age, you know, if you're going through perimenopause or menopause or something, or if you've noticed lots of changes, if you switch a little bit more in summer, the Marino underwear is absolutely fantastic. I'm a huge contract now are but I do have a bit of an issue with the bra because actually, I think too many of us aren't wearing bras that doing us any favors whatsoever. And I'm the same. You might have
noticed this morning. I came in and all I was doing was pulling up my brasstraps because they're just falling down and my brain's absolutely I run across the road. I have to hold them, boobs.
We cannot be the only people putting up with this kind of Occasionally, I.
Go, right, I'm going to go and spend the money, and then I get there and I go, I got to put fuel on.
The car, and I'd rather pair of by a pair of running shoes sufficient. Yeah, but anyway, all right, I just feel like we can't. I can't have a spourge.
Yeah, make it. And I'd like to know whether you feel better knowing you've got some slightly more sexy and interesting non.
Holy under Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyway to down the podcast, we're joined by Sonya Gray. Now, look, I am personally indebted to the work that Sonya does when it comes to neurodiversity. With her podcast No such Thing as Normal, She's filled the gate for so many people living with neurodiversity, raising a child with neurodiversity, or for those working and living with neurodiverse people, and I believe that everybody should listen to her podcast.
Yep. Sonya's pot cast leave me feeling so well informed that I actually contacted people I knew who have neurodiversent children, and I apologize for any time I'd misunderstood their child or underestimated their genuine struggle to get timely and appropriate support. It was a huge eyepner for me.
You're so right. It was a tool that I could sin to our family and you guys were really sweet. You were like, I'm going to listen to it, you know, Yeah, but it was an amazing tool to be able to sing your friends and family go, hey, you look just you're constantly asking how we are? This is how we are? You have a listen to this? Yeah?
No, it was brilliant. So today we're going to talk to Sonya about women and ADHD and why so many women are being diagnosed later in life and what happens when peering miniporse who collides with ADHD. The impact can be brutal. We find out why and what we can do about it. Sonya will welcome to the little things.
Cry.
It was so such a beautiful intro. And I'm sitting here so tired because I'm you know, I'm in the dip of it, and when I hear things like that and what it means, that's what keeps me going. So thank you so so I.
Mean, I've said to this, I've said this to you before. I think the first time I saw you after listening to the podcast, I just burst into tears and I and you know, one of the things that comes through and so many of the episodes that you do is the people that you speak to want connection with other people who have the same experiences. And that's and that's the key thing. That's why, that's why we're all just so moved by it, because we're like, hang on, we're
not going through this on our own. We're not on our own, and we should explain you're tired just because you've got so many, you know, jobs on the go at the moment.
And I do have family, you know that poor family get missed a lot of the time. I think, yeah, I do have a lot going on, but it's the podcast is my baby, and it means so much to me personally that I will it's just so much work to try and capture the nuances because there's so much out there about talking about people with ADHD or autism or dyslexia, and you need to talk to people with the lived experience and bring experts in to get that
side of it. But getting that mix and that balance right and honoring the people that have so graciously told their story is just a lot of work and I have to put that work in, but it does mean I'm very tired and I get to you full easily.
I'm glad you mentioned that we're nuanced because I think that I'm hoping well. I could be wrong that there's a broader understanding by EHD now, but I think the next layer to get to is the nuance because the span of impact for families and the people affected is so wide, and the understanding is well, it needs to be nuanced.
It does, and each person is different. When we say it all the time, but each person's experience is different, and it just takes a bit of time to learn what their individual story is, what they you know, what support they need, and oh, there's so much I could say about this. I think we look at sometimes neurodivergence as being we need to give people something you know, they're taking from us. Whereas when you get to know,
you know, I hear so many beautiful stories. And when you get when you hear these stories, you know, I get so much out of it. That's it means so much to me. Just it broadens your world to hear how other people experience the world. It is so fulfilling, And that's why I don't mind being tired.
And there's there's a lot of similarities and maybe experiences, but you're right, you don't just just because you know or have met one person with ADHD, someone else's lived the experience could be quite different and how it impacts them it's quite different.
And yeah, so this is where it's hard, because yes, you need a diagnosis in order to get the support in order to people, for people to have some kind of understanding of what you're going through. But also that's just the starting point. And then it's about who they you you know, who really are you?
Okay, let's we're going to talk about women in ADHD sting because this is sort of becoming wonderful. We're sort of talking about this so much more and things do you mind if we start with your story. You were a late diagnosis in your fourges. What impact did that diagnosis have on you?
None. Initially I was like, I mean I I don't know if you know, but I scored one hundred percent. I was delighted about it, thank you. It was stoked with that. But I didn't even want to do the assessment. I was like, I said to the psychologists, I do not have ADHD, Like I can't be bothered doing your dumb test. Didn't say like that, but you know, just do the tests on you, which is something that a lot of psychologists do for parents because of that genetic
component is so high. Yeah, did the test one hundred percent? And then I just was like, yeah, I don't know, it's not me. So I just left it for a few years. And then things started to get hard and I revisited it and I went to see more people, and I talked to my mum, who said, to be honest, this kind of explains your whole childhood, and yeah, it was.
It was a slow conversion, slow kind of I think for a lot of us, especially women, we come to a diagnosis with a history of anxiety and depression and a belief that it's a character flaw, that we're not good enough, you know, and that starts really early. And so to have someone say, actually, this is just how your brain works. Your internal filing system is a bit different. It just takes a little while to adjust to that to go, it's not my fault. You know, that was
the case for me anyway. So but it's been a game changer. I really encourage people to explore it. Of course, everyone now in today's world is a bit distracted and can have sort of ADHD like traits. But if you've had those sort of things from childhood, I think it's worth getting assessment just to get an understanding of who you are.
Was there anything in particular? Was there a moment where you then where you did come to accept it?
A moment in itself. It was sort of a slow progression and you sort of you're peeling back the layers again and you're like, oh, that's why I can't what are you laughing at?
No, Because we were oh, like we spent six months going oh, hang on. Like with our daughter, it was like the revelation moments, and we'd have them one a week and we would just be like oh, hang on, that explains that, Oh my gosh, remember you know, and it takes it does take a while for them to come to mind. Yeah, we were like we just looked back and we're like we're just laughing, going, oh yeah, okay. That explains that when she was two, and when she was she was so quirky and interesting.
Yeah, and I think as a child, I was really lucky. I have a wonderful mother. I'm saying that because she'll be listening, but even if she's not, she's so amazing. But she kind of went round after me. She was my scaffolding, and she literally and figuratively picked up stuff that I dropped behind me and made sure my life. I had quite a full life. I was an athlete and doing all sorts of things, and she just kind
of wrapped me up. So I didn't really know that I wasn't coping until I left home and everything fell apart, and then you know, all these sort of anxiety issues and depression and for years and years and years, and the ADHD diagnosis. When I finally accepted it revealed that that anxiety and depression was because of undiagnosed ADHD. And the thing is, though that you kind of go, oh, I've got a diagnosis. I've accepted it, right, that's the beginning.
Then the real work starts of really understanding yourself. I've kind of from the beginning and going who am I? The are?
Harm moments is what we used to call them, have an aha moments?
Yeah, what do I want?
But that's really important for people to know because a lot of people go into the diagnosis and a lot of women you know, who are suddenly going maybe this could be it. They get the diagnosis and they go great, now I've got an explanation. But you're right, it is the very beginning of what can be quite a long journey.
Yeah. And also with sometimes with family and friends, you've played a particular role in their lives, you know, your whole life, and when you start changing, it can be hard for them to adjust because they're going, who are you? You know a lot of women with ADHD are the people pleases, the perfectionists, the ones that you know look after everyone are always yes, the nurturer is And then
and it does often coincide with midlife. It's like I can't, I don't want to and I can't do that anymore, and that's quite confronting for people in your lives.
I think sometimes, well, you have to that diagnosis forces you, I suppose to do a little bit of self analysis and distilling of the now and the past, and then probably yeah, re establish your place from then on.
Yeah, but for a long time, and I probably still am. You're straddling these two worlds, your old world and your new world because you know that we're so used habit to just be a certain way, and so it's quite destabilizing.
So I mean, is it both a burden and a freedom?
Is it?
Yeah? But definitely more a freedom. Yeah, I think I think definitely more a freedom. But I do want people to know that it is a process and it can get a bit worse before it gets better. And I didn't have this, but for a lot of people who are late diagnosed, there's a lot of grief and anger and that takes a bit of time to work through. But I think for our parents, for our generation, they didn't know, you know, like the awareness has grown so much, so I don't think, I mean, do we even know
about ADHD was maybe in the States? Yeah, our parents did the best they could.
And I love that story about your mum, just walking around being the scaffolding making everything possible, just quietly there.
Yeah. Yeah, and that's what so.
Many of our parents did. I mean, I don't know about I don't know about you guys, but the more I've learned about nar adiversity, the first thing I did was go back to my primary school and go, I wish I could apologize to Steve and I we could have, and I had, I could. I could visualize the kids who were we just thought of, with the naughty kids and the troublesome kids and the difficult kids. And now I realize, yeah, and now I'm just like, oh, bless,
school was just to night me for them. I'm pretty sure they're all narrati virgent and they just got dropped in the naughty box and left there. Yeah.
So then what happens, and this is this is where you know, for a lot of women, it becomes anxiety depression. And I'm totally generalizing here, but for a lot of males, if you're told the way you are as wrong from an early age, you're going that has massive impacts. You know you're going to then go, well, I am wrong, I am wrong. I believe you know, these people that these teachers, parents, whatever telling me that I am wrong, I'll fulfill that, and yeah, it can lead down a
really dark path. The problem I have with diagnosis is that we kind of go all the ADHD people are here in this box, or the autism here, or the dyslexia. Well, we know now that the co occurring conditions and it's just the person in front of you.
I could be wrong here, but I feel what you're saying. Is it right now? We have as a sort of static view, there has been quite a static view of these things, and they've been put in boxes. And what we're hoping in the future is that that has evaporated to a certain extent and we're just seeing it as the fluid int mining.
Of in front of you first, not a neuro divedrim person totally.
And we're all products of our environment, you know, it's not just our brain wiring.
Honestly. I work in a field where we deal with the area of cleftliff and palette and for it's still I go to conferences and people talk about cleft kids and instead of a child with a cleft, because every even with a left every single one is different and it is so frustrating. When are we going to see the person first and then their unique difference which is genuinely unique, next, and then deal with that person around that uniqueness, that that difference, rather than the Yeah, I don't know.
That's so interesting. And I think I've interviewed a scientists recently and we talked about how language is so important, and I don't know if I fully understood that, but in speaking to her, and also I did an episode on gender diversity, neurodiversity, the intersection, and that was really eye opening for me too around language and how it's you know, identity is so important and it's not that hard to get the language right.
It's not and it's not political, and it's not you know, being what is the word?
What is the word?
But I try, I really try hard, and I've learned so much over the last few years, but I'm pulled up quite a bit at home and I'm and I can't like yep, no good And actually it's like it's not that hard, Francisca, just you know, listen, and you know it.
Can be challenging for our generation because it's new and we're like, well they she he what does it matter? I can't get it right. But yeah, I've now really changed with that because I understand that for many people, in particular autistic people, identity is really important. It's something that has felt it. There's an eternal sense of identity and we have to honor that. How hard is it to just at least and I think you know, something someone said to me is if the intent is there,
we're not always going to get it right. But people sometimes purposely choose not to get it right. That's right.
So back to you though, in terms of a midlife diagnosis, we are seeing more of the midlife diagnosis. What's that down to? Do you think is it down to people getting the children diagnosed and then they're psychologists testing them or are people just more aware and thinking.
I think it's both right, yeah, and I think it's quite unfortunate that there's this whole every one here's ADHD. Now, I get it, but it's like anything. You know, a few decades ago it was left handedness, and we runs left handed. Now were they already were?
You know?
So yeah, it's that I think for women, adult women are the most underdiagnosed of all the demographics, so there's some catching up to do. And at that midlife point there are many hormonal changes, so we can talk about perimenopause, and I think that is a big factor because the scaffolding you've built doesn't work anymore because of those fluctuations and hormones. I did not understand how massive that was until I did an episode on it, and it surprises me that any of us at the mid life stage
are even standing. Yeah, because what the body is going through is it's huge.
So when you talk to women with ADHD who are in perimenopause, what kind of experiences are they having?
Well, I set it on a workshop specifically for ADHD women with perimenopause, and I did not hear anyone talk about hot flushes or libido problems or all the things that have been researched the most and that we traditionally think of as being associated with the menopausal transition. They spoke about the cognitive effects and the emotional effects as being huge. Burnout was massive, just not trusting themselves to
do what they've always done. And I think this is relevant because it's not just about women with ADHD or who suspect they have ADHD. It's all women at this time, you know, your body is doing so much that like, estrogen is so bloody important, and it's fluctuating like anything, and you can't trust that you will be the same or be able to deliver it in the same way on any given day, and I think we do. I'll be totally honest. The whole menopause conversation hasn't been one
that I have necessarily jumped into. I've kind of been like, how a little bit woman had menopause for since the beginning of time, Let's get over it. And this is where education is great and talking to people and going oh, okay, okay, and personally, as someone that had terrible burnouts, I'm still recovering from it. I'm like, potentially there was an hormonal factor there that I just didn't know about, and it wasn't me just not coping and not trying hard enough and being a bit useless.
Well that's interesting, isn't it. I was thinking about this in my way over here today is thinking about the things that are real. Menopause is real, ADHD is real, and that we talk we start to talk about them, and you do get that slight eye rolling sometimes of people going, oh, we're really going to talk about this women have been having menopause. Well, once we know stuff, are we supposed to ignore it? I don't think so.
And then when these things come in together, then that's another conversation that we still need, that we need to have.
I know, and full disclosure, I was an eye roller and I'm conveyed like I'm cue, it's off my eye rolling. Now, Yeah, I feel quite embarrassed about that. Not overtly, it's just like, oh whatever.
Yeah, because we are in the phase of just getting on with things. That's what we do.
Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. But the difficult thing with ADHD and the cognitive impacts of perimenopause is that they cross over, so you don't really know where the one what is causing what. And I think, yeah, that can be really challenging.
So, I mean, perimenopause kind of crashes into all our lives, you know, embarrassing that I didn't even know what it was till it crashed into my life, Like I didn't even know there was I just thought you had menopause, which was a year, and then you got on with the rest of your life like the whole Perie Partners. And the embarrassing thing is I'm still learning about my
body and what it's doing and what you know. Anyway, hopefully we can change that for our daughter's generations and things to come, they might be a bit more prepared. But if you have ADHD, you call this sort of a collision. Like the ADHD and the pyimenopause, they just collide. So why do ADHD symptoms often get worse during menopause?
Yeah? God, it took me so long to really nut out the science of this. I'm going to try and break it down as best I can. ADHD is characterized this is really really basic, but characterized by insufficient dopamine or just regulated dopamine and nore adrenaline. So in many cases people with ADHD develop workarounds and lean on estrogen, which is an important hormone for our brain, and lean on other pathways neural pathways. I was trying not to be too sciencey, but the.
Problem is that with perimenopause, when our estrogen under adrenaline is moving around on things. For most of us, it moves around to a certain point and it creates a deregulation with our emotions and things like that. But the problem is if you've got ADHD, you're already dealing with a deregulated system, your emotions are You already have all these strategies or the scaffolding, as you say, in place
to deal with that deregulation. So when that comes along, am I right in saying perimenopause just knocks all that scaffolding away, Like it just hits so much harder that that all disappears and you cannot all those coping mechanisms disappear, and it just becomes actually harder.
Raw adhd yeah, left to deal with. Yeah. Yeah, it's quite amazing how our brains work and adjust and essentially there's been a lot more effort put in over our lives to try and make up for, you know, what we perceive as being shortcomings. So an estrogen dopamine are Adrenaline relies so heavily on estrogen. So when it's fluctuating or already dysregulated dopamine.
Dysregulated sorrylated yahds regulated?
Yeah, it's yeah. In short, everything goes haywire and it can feel like a collision, like the chair has been pulled out from under you. And I think still though, because women have no idea about this, and many don't know that they even have ADHD, they're still going what is wrong with me? And it is nothing wrong with you.
This is a natural biological change. And I one thing I took to the women in the workshop about because some of them are doing it really hard, But I said, do you think there's a positive in any of this? Do you think that in some ways this collision has meant that you've had to just stop and peel back the layers and go, who am I? Because I can't do what I've always done? And they did say, yes, it's not fun, but it's a process and the outcome can be really positive and healthy.
What you're describing is really interesting because I also think that if that is overwhelming, and then you're overwhelmed with anxiety and depression and your cortisol levels and things go up, then that has real health impacts on people. Look, as I said, I'm not a scientist, I don't, but I do believe.
Genuinely, and there has incredible impacts. You know, this is protein called B D and F which all ours you know, so many of our systems rely on, and cortisole just basically stops it in these tracks, and so there's so much going on we're not growing those neuronal connections either. So it's it's lay it. The problem is lay it.
Look, I really think it is that to me, you're describing that what is actually literally going on scientifically has been useful because if there's someone listening who's going.
Oh, I thought I was validated.
She just met peri menopause, maybe it's actually more than that. Maybe they're having an AHA moment because you know that, like you say, that sort of collision is going to have is going to have an impact in your life and and everyone in it.
When you're sitting looking at yourself going why can't I do what I did last year? Why can't I do what I did six months ago? Why am I waking up really anxious about going to work?
All this?
Or that you do start to wonder what's going on with yourself and what's happening and are you just not coping? And I just think for someone to go, hey, it is a thing. There is it is a thing, and there is a scientific explanation. Let's start from there and once again sort of you know, start building up all those tools and put that skiffolding back in place.
Healthy scaffolding, not scaffolding, that's just about pleasing society. I think that's really the masking style. The masking. The masking is exhausting, and I think you're you're forced or the masters falls away and you're just like, oh god, everyone's just seeing the real me, the one I've been trying to keep it.
And I've had quite a few people talk to me about the symptom of sort of procrastination with perimenopause and ADHD, of losing their mojo, just just really struggling to be motivated in things.
Is that something you've experienced, Well, I've experienced it my whole life. I mean, ADHD. We have interest based nervous systems, so if something's interesting, great, we can hyper focus with We are not motivated by importance. So you know, I need to pay that bill, or do the laundry, do the you know, yeah, yeah, laundry is a great one. Emptying the dishwasher, all those those the fleas of life I call them, and I want to get it done, but I cannot. I can't even explain it. I can't.
It takes I have to rely on adrenaline and cortisol to do it. I'm trying to change that in myself. Now I'm being really aware of of when I'm doing that because it's not healthy. But I to me anyway, not a scientist, I think that is where a lot of the procrastination comes from. Is it's just not interesting.
Fleas of life is such. I'm so not just because of the fuel prices, but having to stop and fill that you can, I'm just like, oh again, I just do it like that, those mundane, boring things that you actually sort of have to do because otherwise the car won't drive and I'll be stuck rare, but they do my head.
In franchise Scar, thank you so much for saying that. I just I think I drove here on flashing red It's been a flashing red light for three days, and I thought, God, I'm going to have to ring and say I've broken down on the motorway and get one of your going in. I hate it why I have.
To go to a petrol station where I can pay it the pump and leave again as quickly as possible. If I have to step foot inside and wait, like the biggest inconvenience of my life, I mean, what is going on?
That's just really I write an electric Matt, I never and it has completely taken that out of the equation for me.
I literally want and I don't care about cars at all. I'll drive whatever, but I will pay. I think I will pay the extra money to get real Yeah, then electric, I'm not going to I need some sort of hybrid with its minimal time at the petrol station. But I don't have to do when there's a list of things you have to do. Every thing that goes yeah, takes energy.
It's before I get to hear I have to stop and fill up the camel.
Will I will warn you about the electric car. I haven't. I absolutely cannot stand having to use a public electric You know, we went on a bigger right road ship. We had to stop a lot and watching people at picture stations stop and get their picture and arrive off while we were sitting there for half an hour. Do it at home. Do it at home.
We'll work on this one. You're listening to the Little Things in Our guest on the podcast today as host of No Such Thing as Normal Podcasts, Sonya Gray, talking about ADHD in Midlife. We'll be back after the break. Welcome back, Sonya. Okay, So we've had a bit of a chat about what it's like when ADHD and pyramidopause collide. So what can we do about it? Like medication can be really useful. You know.
I wish I could say, I wish I could go to the research and oh, these are the findings, this is what helps. There's no research. Oh truly, no research. I was so shocked.
What have you discovered when it comes to research?
One shocking stat that completely blew me away. They did a review on all the studies, a recent review, and all the studies into ADHD, of something like seventeen hundred and forty nine studies, only four were focused on women.
This is nuts. Four.
I mean there were a few women in the other studies, some of them. But and the excuse was that sometimes they give is women are hard to study because of the hormonal changes.
Gosh, that doesn't make it more important, does it?
Yeah?
Can I throw another terrifying stat Someone didn't kind of go, that's really interesting. We should be studying this.
Like, well now they are now slowly, but there's a lot to catch up. And but another stat that I read which shocked me, there are five times more studies on male a rectile dysfunction than on PMS. So PMMES effects about ninety percent of women, a rectile dysfunction effects nineteen percent of men, But there are five times more studies on these poor men with a reptile dysfunction.
Look, I'm not knocking, and it must not be very nice, but PMES is no in the park either, Honestly, for crying out loud, right, I mean we've talked to Stacy Sim's a couple of times in this podcast about the you know, the exercise research and men. It just seems to be a pattern, right sure, Yeah, So.
Okay, so there's not a lot of research, there's a there's not a list of one to ten things that we can do to make this better. Where can women start? Then, when it comes to dealing with their ADHDM pyraimenopause.
I think it's back to connection. Yeah, when we talked about at the start, because what I saw in this workshop was the thing that the women got out of it. They got a lot of education, they understood what was happening with their bodies, with the ADHD, with perimenopause. But at the end of the day, it was sitting around in a group with people that were experiencing what you were experiencing, and they could go, I'm not alone, I'm not going crazy. This is a thing, Sony.
If we go back to medication, should women also be aware of the fact that they might have to alter their adh new medications, Like if things have been working up to now and they're suddenly not working, is that something that they should be just conscious of looking at.
Yeah, yeah, obviously you talk to your thing, yes, exactly, the medical professional. But I think from what I've read and the people I've talked to that you know, if your dopamine receptors aren't working as well, then there's less for the medication to hold on to, and so you may need more. I mean yeah, but.
Then also, if you've been newly diagnosed, medication will be new to you full stops.
So totally. And look, I think it's on average about five different tweaks of medication and trying different ones and different delivery systems. And I think this is really important for people to know about ADHD medication just because the let's say you're taking rittlin that's methyl fenodate, but they're also different brand names, they are not the same, the delivery system is different.
You're not experience.
Yeah, slow build ups, hard, cracious, all sorts of difference things.
And often when they run out of a particular let's say, run out of concerto, they'll give you something else, and people have terrible experiences because that is not right for them. And so I think that's really important to know and important to know that you know, they'll probably try you on the first one. It tends to be rittle, and
they'll try you on first. If that doesn't work, that doesn't mean medication is not right for you, you know, it's it's a real process, and you have a right to keep going back.
And that comes back to what we spoke about at the beginning. If you're a woman who's in perimenopause who's starting to wonder and thinking about the diagnosis, diagnosis is great, but there is a road to travel afterwards. And I
actually I'm not saying that as a negative. I'm actually trying to say that is a positive because if somebody had explained to me how long it would take for us to get our daughter to a really good place to find the drugs that would work to you know, then that would have been really helpful, you know, because you get given something, you go great, the magic pill, the silver bullet, and it might not be and that's absolutely fine. Yeah, don't panic, No, move on to the
next thing. Keep trying, you will pretend you will more than likely find something that works for you and changes your life. It comes back. And I do think it's quite important just to have that patience and to understand that that.
Could take time. Yeah. The problem is especially as a parent, and I know we've been in similar situations which essentially we were both in crisis stages with our daughters, and every new thing, every shiny new thing, every shiny new medication, you're like, this is it, this is going to be it, and when it doesn't work, you go low, You drop to lower than you were before, and it's almost like you need somebody to say, as you say, this is a process, we're going to try this. It might not work,
but we're sticking with you. And that's really important I think for the for specialists, for clinicians to stick with people.
And I'll never forget the walk we had when you had that revelation when you said, oh, this is a rollercoaster, this isn't linear, this is going I'm now learning about the peaks and troughs, and that changed everything. I think, yeah, it did.
And it also because it then reminded me to just grab on and hold on to any little glimmer. It could be a tiny little thing that happened in the day that was a positive and a good thing, and that's been really good for me just in general in life. I've just learn just to kind of you roll with
the punches, don't you. But you take that tiny, little moment and it could be something so small and insignificant to other people, but it's huge to you and your family, and you just hold on to that glimmer and you go, no, they can put the smile on my face today that glimmer, and that's all that matters. And tomorrow's another day.
And yeah, I'm just remembering because of course, I interviewed you for my podcast last season. I encourage anybody to everybody to listen to that because it was so enlightening. You were so beautiful and you said something very similar to that, and I thought, God, that's just so lovely.
The thing is, as a parent, when you're going through something like this with your child, it can feel so hopeless and it's almost like getting to a point where you accept that your life looks your life isn't the picture that you thought it was, and that is okay.
It's absolutely fine, and there's huge freedom in it. I'm like, hang on, I don't have to do things the way people expect me to, or there is no one way to do things. This is quite fun and I've taken that kind of on board in my own life and kind of going it's liberating. I'm going to do it this way, or I'm going to do that, or actually, there's lots of different solutions to a problem.
I remember we spoke about school, and we're both with our kids. You know, there's that you've got. We're told you've got to get to your kid to school. It's the law. And when you suddenly go school is not working for them, and I'm going to take control here it's like, oh, you know, the world doesn't end.
No, it turns out they still get educated and off they go to university and the life goes on very quickly though. Parenting with ADHD and perimenopause.
Hello, we're the colicious.
So here we go. So it's a running joke in our family that you know, we're going through perimenopause. We've got the girls are going through either perimenopause or puberty in our house, which is you know, as my doctor said, it's not kind of the way things were supposed to be organized. You're supposed to have your kids nice and early, so by the time you got to perimenopause, you could just look after yourself and your children are independent. But
we're not dealing with that now. We're all still got our hands full of looking after and nurturing other people. So how do how do you manage that? If you're if you're a mum, you are adhd you're heading perimenopause, quite possibly also looking after a neurodivergent child.
Yeah yeah, well god it's had, and quite possibly also caring for elderly pearents. Yes, there's so much. I mean, I don't really know. Everyone's situation is different. But what I've found really helpful with my kids is to actually be really honest with what I struggle with. And you know, I don't have it all together. I'm not that mum that's going to remember to pick you up at this time. I'm gonna be crap in a lot of ways, but I love you so much and if you can love
me with all my crapness, then we're good. We're good.
Because they are smarter than we think they are. They do pack up on all this. They understand that they can they can take on board someone a step from a parent like that, yeah I'm gonna go okay, yeah all right.
But again that goes back to the importance of the diagnosis too, because then you are not masking and pretending to be everything all the time and be perfect and you always.
Yeah, well yeah, yeah. It gives you a language, it gives you an understanding, and then you can share that understanding and it takes a little while. But my kids are really I mean they're a little bit older now, they're seventeen, so you know, perhaps you know, when they were younger, they wouldn't have understood as well. But they're quite supportive of me.
Now.
Yeah, they're not great, but they get it.
There's every likelihood too that they may have peers who they do so who have had HD or on spectrum of some description, and then that therefore it's not even always new language for them.
Oh no, they know so much more than we think they do, and there's so much more welcoming of difference, aren't they we have better?
No, it's okay.
Usually in our house when things happen, you know, excuses are thrown around, and things have thrown around, we're like, do not throw the decart at me, because of course, you know, my neurodivergent child is officially disabled, you know, and we're like, do not throw that card at me. This is not the time to throw the card at me. And then occasionally something will come up and we're trying to make something happen and we'll go to throw the decadens, throw the decaden and they were a bit naughty.
We're using mate. I still throw the cancer carden there occasionally.
Well, you've got to use what you have.
You got to use what's your disposal. But I'd also love it if you could just share a little bit about your experience with burnout, because I think that this is another really common symptom that women have with ADHD, especially when the pyramid of pause.
Yeah, with ADHD, with autism and just women in general, people, human beings in general. What is being asked of us? I think in society now is too much in a lot of cases. And yeah, especially for woman who a neurodivergent who get to midlife with all these changes. It's just too much. And I have been someone that is like, I just need to work harder. I can fix anything if I work hard. The first realization that that wasn't
possible was with my daughter. It was the first humbling experience that no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't fix it. That was heartbreaking. But then as I started, you know, I had all these projects on that meant a lot to me. I'm like, right, I can do it all. I will do it all, and it has to be perfect. And I could slowly feel my body over the weeks shut down and I got these weird feelings in the back of my neck and my head would be going funny. This is about two years ago.
And then I made a deadline. I got my episode and got my story in and I literally collapsed and the kids had to pick me up off the floor and spend a month in bed. I was still trying to work though I still hate the laptop out, but I couldn't. I could hardly speak. It's like I just shut down. And what I've realized is this is not uncommon, and.
Was it terrifying when it happened. Were you Were you scared when it happened?
I was scared. Yeah, if I'm honest, I was scared. I thought, you know, we go to am I having a stroke? Yeah, having a stroke. But I but in my heart, I knew that I'd pushed it, and I you know, sometimes Yeah, there's a couple of things like I've got something. I hate getting anything wrong, and I got something wrong with a guest, not a big detail, but they weren't happy and I had to change it, and the guilt of that just was the tipping point for me.
Where does that perfection come from, that desire for perfection come from?
I well, I think I don't know. I don't know. My mom says that she's like, who are you? I just I know you came out of my body.
But after that it's like, no, I'm just I'm really intrigued as to what drives that in people. Yeah.
I for me, I do think now that it is based on my ADHD And my earliest memory is of being two years old at daycare, which I was at just for a few hours a week, and missing an instruction from the person because you know, I'm in daydreamland ADHD, I now know, and just kind of going, oh my god, I can't trust my brain. And it must because I was you know, it must have been two and a half of the most so that's a really early memory.
But that that was almost the starting point. And I always, you know, through my whole life, I've gone I can't trust myself. So I've got to work harder. I've got to be better. I've got to produce more and be better for the living live, for the playing field to be level.
Right, So the seeds of that burnout was sown, oh hell yeah, yeah, many many years before.
It's years in the making. Yeah.
And then of course, yeah, as you say, raising children, coming across the challenge that you can't fix, embarking on this amazing journey that of teaching us all about about ADHD and and that there is no such thing as normal, it was a huge gift to people. I meanwhile, you were burning out.
Yeah yeah, and I'm still recovering in two point one weeks, two weeks in one day, I get to stop for a little bit. So that's good.
But so is that how you're dealing with Are you giving yourself patches of Carmen and don't have to.
Yeah, so what I'll do a block of work and then I literally have to lie on the couch or the bed and shut my eyes and just either meditate or rest. So I build to rest in at various points, and I can or if I can feel it coming like that feeling. No, it sounds weird. It's a weird feeling at my neck into my head. It's sort of a panicky feeling, but it's very physical. If I feel that coming, I've got to stop.
Because the rest doesn't actually come unless you put it in. I learned this a long time ago. Is that because I'm not very good at resting, and I'm an active relaxa. So my version of that would be, you know, going out for three hours and walking or running somewhere. But rest doesn't come. People, it doesn't come. You need to schedule it.
You do, and you shouldn't feel guilty about it. And I'm an active relexa too, but I couldn't. You know, even social stuff now is quite difficult for me, and I'm a really social person. So I'm just getting back and try it. Well, I will in two point one weeks get back into that it's really interesting. Phone calls
I find really difficult. So here with you guys, and I can see you, but the effort with a phone call of trying to understand what their meaning is, you know, you don't get those non verbal cues because my energy level is so depleted. It's too much. So I mean, I feel kind of weird talking about myself. And I'm not complaining or going woll as me, but I just do think it's important for anyone listening that it's taken seriously, because if you don't get on top of it, you'll
end up like me. It's still recovering after three years.
We can't thank you enough for not only the work you do and talking to us today about you know, ADHD and perimenopause, but for sharing your stories, because I think that's that's the hard of it, right, there's just this you're so genuine about diving into this and exploring it, and as you say, you've your mind's been blown open by it all and everything, and so is ours. So we just we can't thank you enough, Sonya. And look we're and we will be thinking of you in two
weeks and one day. Yeah, sorry, we've edited to your load.
No, no, no, I want to do this. It's I love talking about it. But yeah, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. I've built things in but I do want people to know that I and people say you've got to take care of yourself, Well, what does that mean?
Easier said than life balance? If someone else tells you to get life balance and you're just sitting there overloaded with.
You that's kind of why we started this in the first place. We were sick of the the messages that were being aimed at midlife women. And you should never apologize for talking about yourself because we got you here to talk about yourself.
Very good point, Louise, It's what I wanted to hear.
Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you.
So one of the really interesting things about this podcast is that will be finished it I'll produce. Actually admitted she thinks she's wearing Holy Undis too, so just by the bye that was, isn't just us? It's not just us?
That's okay. We should have asked Sonya, Sonya looked too well presented today to be wearing Holy Unday. Sorry Sonya.
Anyway, back to Sonyah, how amazing is she?
She's a vehicle for this that we didn't even know we needed.
No no, and I there were so many little gems in that conversation. Obviously, I'm going to go home and seduce to people that I do less of the fleas of life. I thought that was such a great expression just for all those little things that we find ourselves hard to motivate ourselves to do time and time again. But I you know, she's full of information, but I think it's her personal story which really resonates with people as well.
And also just because she has done such a deep dive to understand it, and you know, obviously her her interest based nervous system took her this in this direction, which we should all be extraordinarily grateful for. I just thought it was fantastic just understanding the science. I think a bit more about it, about that particular collision of ADHD and perimenopause, just regulated dopamine and all of those things. I just found, Yeah, I found it quite revitting and
quite emotional. I felt quite emotional through that that one as well.
If you would like to know more, Sonya's podcast is No such Thing as Normal Season three is available now. Listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series, The Little Things. We hope you share this podcast with the women in your life, so that women don't feel so alone during this challenging time, and that we can understand the different experiences we're all going through.
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and for more episodes from us on other topics here to NZ Herald dot co dot nz and we'll catch
You next time on The Little Things