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Welcome to podcast two hundred and fifty two for August twenty one, twenty twenty four. Centerpiece in two five to two is a lengthy discussion with Stephen Rainbow, the newly appointed Chief of the Human Rights Commission. Arguably the most critical issue involves the right to freedom of speech based on freedom of thought. Just how important freedom of speech is is reflected in headlines and stories from all over the planet, specifically those countries known as the West or
Democratic countries. Virtually every day you will find if you go looking, and sometimes you don't even have to look for, you'll find examples of the battles that are underway in various parts of the world. For example, from this week's Spectator Australia comes the story of Dave Pellow. Dave Pellow is the founder of CSA Church and State Australia. He faces a complaint put before the Queensland Human Rights Commission
accusing him of racism and vilification. He is being forced into a legal battle after he replaced the Welcomed country message with some twenty four to one church and state conferences led by Pello open with the ode to God's ownership of the land instead of the now common welcome
to country message. Explaining reasons for the allegations, he said, I quote Psalm twenty four to one, which contradicts the claims of Aboriginal religion that the spiritual entity it calls country requires deceased ancestors to permit someone's arrival or travel through it. If that's racist, he asks, isn't criticizing Christian belief's racism too. The complaint also found fault with Dave's
thirty minute presentation. Pello allegedly failed to fall in line and give voice and visibility to events such as invasion Day. You get the picture. We seem to be in a similar situation in New Zealand with regard to similar matters, the status of water being the latest that is a subject to shall we say, different opinions. But before we get to David Rainbow, there is another matter that I want to raise I received yesterday morning a press release,
a media release from the University of Auckland. Does climate reporting make a difference? Let me quote Some of the New Zealand's biggest companies submitted their first mandatory climate related disclosures this year, but a new study shows disclosure does
not guarantee better behavior. This year, New Zealand became among the first countries in the world to force note the word force their largest companies and financial institutions, about two hundred in all, to disclose their climate related risks and opportunities in their annual reports and make regulatory filings. But
do these kinds of initiatives improve environmental outcomes? A new study co authored by Professor Chald D. Villier from the University of Auckland Business School finds that mandating social and environmental disclosures does not improve business's performance. What a surprise. Professor DeVillier and his fellow researchers examined the effects of a prominent EU sustainability reporting initiative, which came into effect
in twenty seventeen. The legislation requires large companies to report their performance on non financial matters, including environmental issues, social and employee matters, human rights, anti corruption, and bribery. But after analyzing a cross country sample of businesses between two thousand nine and twenty twenty, the researchers found that social and environmental outcomes did not meaningfully improve after the directive.
Despite the regulatory push, European companies did not exhibit substantial improvements in their social and environmental performance. The findings are surprising, says debilias It's important that we don't assume that if we force companies to disclose information, they are actually going to do better by the environment and people. One could make many, many comments on this. This is a prime example of the authoritarian tentacles that we're being subjected to
on a greater basis in all areas of life. It is social activism when it comes to matters to do with climate. Actually let me let me bypass that and be more inclusive. The legislation requires large companies to report their performance on non financial matters, including I'm repeating environmental issues, social and employee matters, human rights, anti corruption, and bribery, most of which, if not all, has very little to do,
if anything, with what a company's job is. What the purpose of a company is There is much more to be said on this, and I'm going to include it at the end of the podcast because it will help explain why this approach to life is a nonsense. And by the way, Stephen Rainbow makes commentary on an aspect of this as you'll see, not so much of business, but an aspect of universities and what their role is or is not, and where their failings are, of which
there are many. But let me leave you with a headlined at the moment, want more freedom of speech, try less government, Stephen Rainbow. Next, there are essential fat nutrients that we need in our diet as the body cart manufacture them. These are omega three and Amega six fatty acids. Equisine is a combination of fish oil and virgin evening primrose oil, a formula that provides an excellent source of Omega three and Omega six fatty acids in their naturally
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health stores. Always read the label and users directed and if symptoms persist, see your healthcare professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. The Human Rights Commission is an independent Crown entity established under the Human Rights Ack and the Crown Entities Act. The Commission works with the government and civil society to advocate and promote respect for human rights and to promote
harmonious relations in New Zealand. As set outs in Section nineteen of the Human Rights Act, the Commission has a duty to carry out its functions independently of the government. Section five of the Human Rights Act provides that the Commission's primary functions are no advocates and promote respect for and understanding and depreciation of human rights in New Zealand society. Encourage the maintenance and development of harmonious relations between individuals
and among the diverse groups in New Zealand society. To promote racial equality and cultural diversity. To promote equal employment opportunities, including pay equity. To promote and protect the full and equal enjoyment of human rights by persons with disabilities. Functions of the Chief Commissioner include chairing the Commission and leading discussions of the Commission, except when it is the function
of a Commissioner to do so. Ensuring that the activities undertaken in the performance of the Commission's functions are consistent with the strategic direction and other determinations of the Commission, which one presumes vary from time to time. And ensuring that the Commission is effective and efficient in carrying out its functions. Now I have to say that those functions of the Chief Commissioner sound well open to interpretation, a
little vague maybe so. Stephen Rainbow, congratulations on your appointment welcome to the Latensmith Podcast. I'm appreciative of the fact that you made the time available. How do you, as a first question, how do you interpret your role as the Chief Commissioner of the New Zealand Human Rights Commission.
First of all, thank you Layton for the opportunity to appear on your podcast and to have this discussion. And can I say it's probably something of a relief to be able to talk about things in a little more detail than the sound bites which have dominated discussion around these appointments to date, So really look forward to that opportunity.
The Human Rights Commission was established in seventy seven and so I hope it's not too use a response to say that as it heads to its fiftieth birthday and twenty twenty seven, when the new group of commissioners will be in charge, I think it's a really good opportunity to actually address precisely your question, which is what are the strategic priorities of the Commission? What are the key human rights issues that we are facing as a country, And if I could just give you a couple of
immediate perspectives on that from where I come from. Apart from the fact that there are real challenges around issues like the impact on human rights from artificial intelligence. For example, if you look at the international literature on human rights, things like AI loom very large. My first point, my
second point. I suspect that the context for this review of our strategic priorities and our work over the years ahead needs ideally to be focused on how we go about and what role we might have in fostering the social cohesion which seems to have been lost. And I say that because there is nothing that makes human rights
more vulnerable than a divided, polarized society. I've spent a good part latent of my adult life exploring and researching history, in particular the Holocaust, and it really alarms me to see some of the patterns that occur in societies where totalitarianism and authoritarianism flourish, because one of those patterns is a polarized and divided society, whether it's the Soviets in nineteen seventeen, or Russia, I shou'd say in nineteen seventeen,
whether it's a Nazis in Germany in the early thirties. And I think we've got a real role, and I can't see anyone else in such a strong position to actually look at what we need to do as a nation to foster social cohesion and perhaps to focus more on what it is that we have in common rather than what separates us.
You, as I read the Commission, and your position as chief is independent of the government and is meant to operate that way. Where does it leave you with regard to advice to the government, either when asked for or even when not so.
On the point of political independence, I just want to tell you very briefly about my background later, which is that I helped to form the Green Party in nineteen ninety and I was the first person elected a New Zealand and a Green ticket, and I was a Wellington City councilor for nine years. Subsequently, I have worked with people across the political spectrum to progress a range of issues, including, for example, the funding of the City rail Link, Auban's
underground railway. All of these activities that I've been involved in have been dependent on being able to work with people across the political spectrum, and I would hope that's one of the reasons I've been appointed to this role. That doesn't answer your question. The fact is that this is an independent statutory role and one of the things that I will have to use very judiciously is the potential to influence public debate around issues that I think
government should be addressing. And I might give you an example of that if I may, although I need to emphasize I haven't even met with the Commission yet and I don't start in the role for a couple of
months yet. If we look at what's happened in Australia as a result of the Middle East conflict, Prime Minister Albanesi recently decried the fact that the level of social intolerance, the destruction of social cohesion, the amount of violence and protest I really have led to a most unfortunate situation in Australia, and he has as one of the results
of that appointed and emissary on anti Semitism. If I look at what's happening in New Zealand, I think it's not far removed, at least in our major cities, from what has happened in Australia. And I think one of the things that I might, for example, want to pursue when I get my feet under the desk is talking an advert advocating to this government that we need to do something more active in the space of fighting anti Semitism as has occurred in Australia of late.
As far as you're concerned, what has led to that situation arising?
That situation has arisen because of people's intense feelings about what is happening in the Middle East, and I think that's completely understandable. It's also arisen from the fact that we now have a far more diverse society than we've had in the past, with significant numbers of people from communities that have a direct relationship to what's happening in the Middle East. And I think that that helps to
explain why that has emerged. But there's also a sense, perhaps if we were to try and look at this analytically, that it's hard to identify at the moment a cause that's perhaps more high profile and more immediate, with suffering is so evident than what's happening in the Middle East.
It's far more understandable that people want to go out and protest about that than about the fact that you know that people are getting thumped in their shops in Auckland, for example, when they turn up to work because of the antisocial activities happening there. So I think that's I think it is a result of those sorts of factors.
I guess the other thing is that we're possibly a little selective about what it is that we do protest about in the Middle East because it's been such a long or seems like such a long conflict has exacerbated these tensions. But I do note that at the moment, for example, that Hindu villages and Bangladesh are being burned to the ground, but we're not seeing protests about that. So we have this because we're part of the Western world.
We have this intense interest in what's happening in Israel in particular, and I don't think that's going to change, but it has created a situation where, for example, the increase in anti Semitic incidents in New Zealand has increased somewhat dramatically since last October the seventh.
You suggested that you didn't see a headline over the top of all this. Let me make a suggestion of one. You're not going to have a discussion like this without being controversial to some extent, depending on the on the recipient, of course, but I'm going to suggest to you that the situation. Actually, I want to back up. Last night, quite by accident, we came across a documentary on.
This exacts.
No on this exact situation in the Middle East on Sky Australia, and it was it was basically it was a documentary, but it was a Q and A and the journalist was was doing an extremely good job of talking to people on on of all of all attitudes involved in the violence that now exists in Australia, that you are rightfully concerned about happening here. And that led me to confirm something that I that I'd formulated not
very long ago. And I'm going to suggest to you that the countries that we both live in different to different levels or different extremes at this point of time. But the countries we both live in, Australia and New Zealand, the days of multiculturalism are over. Once upon a time it was possible to have a multicultural society that ran smoothly.
Now I don't believe it is anymore. That to me is the result of immigration policies and people of fractured cultures or fractured relationships to enter the country in increasing numbers. And when you do that you're going to get yourself from You're going to get yourself into trouble just very quickly.
I was quite young at the time, but growing up in Sydney, I remember distinctly the Czechoslovakian division in Sydney in particular, where there were where there were bombs planted in various homes and offices, and there were people blown up, etc. Because they came from the same background where this problem exists in the first place.
You say, well, later, and I need to be very explicit about the fact that I think that multiculturalism brings with it many advantages, not least of which is that my partner, for example, is an immigrant. But I think that the question might be perhaps better put as if we are, and we indeed are multicultural societies, if we are to have successful multicultural societies, then what is it that we need to do to ensure the success of
that multiculturalism. And I guess one of the things that I think we need to do a far better job of is dialogue between the different commune nities who now make up New Zealand. So I'll give you an example if I may, and.
Just before you do that, that'd lose your place, suggest that importing the problems, and the problems only exist when there's more than one attitude, if you like, importing the problems that can't be settled from whence they came is simply inviting the same issue to exist here or wherever it may be.
Well, I don't think we're going to change the fact that we're a multicultural society, and so the question then becomes not the question that you're asking, but rather how do we make a multicultural society succeed? And I think that's something that a Human Rights Commission, for example, can
play a role and fulfilling. I guess the example that I was going to give of where these issues are a challenge, and this is not to say that multicultural is not desirable, is that we had as our neighbor on the North Shore, my husband and I a Liberal National MP who knew us personally and who voted against same sex marriage. And I went up to Jonathan. I said, Jonathan,
what on earth are you doing? And he said, the only issue that the Korean community in Northcote had mobilized against in his years in parliament was against same sex marriage. And there were six thousand I think there was the figure Korean people there, and he needed to respect their views. Now I'm not saying that's wrong, Please don't take it
that way. I'm just saying I wonder, given that we have human rights progress for gay people, which has been quite what there's been a complete transformation in my lifetime, what effort are we making to talk to new immigrant communities about issues like that going to make multicultural succeed. We need more dialogue, more discussion about these kinds of issues, you know, late and what the most anti gay city
in Britain now is. It's London, and it's London because that's where most of the Muslim immigrants and the conservative Christian immigrants. Now I'm not anti religion, by the way,
please don't take it this way. But this highlights the fact that in the multicultural society it produces challenges, and the challenges are around how to quote that key we way of being, we learn to live and let live, and how we foster the tolerance that is needed between the different communities that are here, be they gay, be they Jewish, for example.
And again I'm going to back up. I came to think a long time ago that if you don't understand. If you have no knowledge of biblical matters of the time, you have no chance of understanding why there is conflict in the Middle East now which will probably endure forever,
however long that might be. And again, if you import people who have that same conflict in their mind, deeply rooted in their beliefs which are the most important to them, and some of the comments that were made by imams and others in this documentary last night, we're most telling in this regard, then you're going to have even if you settle it down for a period of time, as it does in the Middle East, and then you're going to have continued conflict nevertheless or by beating the same old drum.
Where you are, and it doesn't help to address the issue of what is it that then needs to happen, Because whether it's Europe, whether it's the United States, the Western world has been a destination for people from many cultures because the Western way of life is what actually attracts and draws people. And so the question then becomes,
how do we make multicultural societies succeed? And one of the things that a group like the Human Rights Commission could do, I believe more aggressively is to actually encourage dialogue between the different groups who now make up our society. I mean, and that's talking about the Human Rights Commission. But if we just go back to your Middle East example, I have to say that I've been somewhat dismayed at the lack of courage from our universities late in, for example,
facilitating debates and dialogue around the Middle Eastern situation. They haven't had the hotspa to do that. And yet again, I would be looking to our universities to be taking a more aggressive role in terms of facilitating discussions and debates around these critical issues which, at the end of the day, whether whether we want to admit it or not, deeply impact on certain communities here and about which there
is widespread interest. Why are the university is taking a more active role in facilitating dialogue between different groups and opinions.
I think the answer to that's fairly simple, and I'm glad you've redirected, because we were going to get there eventually. Let me suggest to you that what culture is the is the real answer to that? Included in what culture, of course, is a DEI that we're all now familiar with, And I would imagine that considering your studies in politics and your experience, et cetera. Like me, you've watched it
develop in America. That is what culture headquarters and transmit itself to the rest of the world, and it's been The most amazing thing to me is not that it's happened, but how quickly it has happened and how it's taken over the universities in this country the same as other universities. Now, if anybody suggested in a university suggested they do that, I think they would be swamped with objection, to put
it mildly, from other members of the university staff. If not, it would transmit to the demonstrations from students and you would have, as we've seen on television time and time again from the States and Australia, you'd have violence in the streets.
And I wonder whether there is not here an issue around leadership, because, for example, if a university were to hold a function, let's say, exploring the Middle East conflict and hearing from both sides of this dreadful suffering, and the university was to shut that down, then one of the things that I would consider doing as the chief Human Rights commissioners to challenge the university about that, and I think that there is a role for more muscular
leadership around actually saying we need to discuss and debate and have dialogue around these issues if we're not to be shut into our self perpetuating bubbles, regardless of what that bubble might be, because we're not going to find a way forward as a country if we're going to be divided and polarized and not challenged on our views.
And I mean, I'll go back to my experience as a gay man latent, but every bit of progress that's been made in this remarkable transformation of the lives of gay people in New Zealand has been the result of people like fran Wilde standing up, advocating for a perspective, building alliances, having dialogue with people. When I was involved in the same sex marriage campaign, I had to go and talk to people who I wouldn't normally be politically or or value in any way around values be aligned with.
But you had to build alliances. And this is how democracy works, this is how free society works, this is how free speech works. And it seems that we've lost courage around some of those qualities and I think that we need more challenging of the dissipation of the courage to have these difficult conversations and to explore differences and
to find a way forward. And I would hope that in the role that I'm going to shortly begin, that I might play some small part and facilitating that dialogue that is actually underpinning of a free society that we are so lucky to be living in.
Want to quote you something. We need heroes, people who can inspire us, help shape us morally, spur us onto purposeful action, and from time to time were called on to be those heroes leaders for others, either it a small day to day weight or on the world's largest stage. At this time in America and in the rest of the world, we seem to need moral leadership especially, but the need for moral inspiration is ever present. Are you do you have hero in you?
I would like to think so. And you know, this is going to be my last big at my last gig, Layton, and so I would certainly hope. So there's a huge hole that goes with trying to step into those roles. But if I look back, well, look, I'll take it to extremes On the one hand, I had a grandfather who fought because he was a working class Englishman every day from September nineteen thirty nine through to nineteen forty five for six years in the war, and he was
a working class autodidact. But he had a picture of Churchill on his wall, and I I guess one of the great sadnesses I think in recent times is that the heroes that some of us have been inspired by, like Churchill, have been derided as part of the attempt to, I suppose, downplay the significance of significant figures like him. So I have these figures in my mind and I hope that they will give me the strength and the hooks part to actually do what is needed in this role.
Because I think your quote is very apposite. I don't obviously see myself and see myself as being the sole player in that space. But if I could make even a small contribution to that kind of leadership in New Zealand, then I would feel that the role had been a success. And if I can help reduce suffering, constrain evil, offering encouragement to people, even in a small way on a day to day basis, while in this role, then I feel it will have been a success. What is evil, Well,
we've seen evil. We don't. Actually, it's not an abstract question. We've seen evil later and as I said earlier, I've spent much in laid out life studying what happens with tyranny and oppression. And we might easily point to the Holocaust and the essentially the industrialized massacre of Jewish people,
probably the greatest crime in human history. But then we might also look at the fact that the Soviets, so for example, my son's great grandfather was one of two million people shot during the Great Terror under Stalin from thirty seven to thirty nine in the Soviet Union. So
we know what evil is. We've seen it in the twentieth century, and we need to be very vigilant about it civilized and I guess the view that I bring to this role is that civilization is very fragile and it's not something we should be taking for granted.
So you'd agree with Reagan that freedom democracy is only one to think of the accuracy of it is only one generation separated from barbarity will do.
Well if we look at the number of people living in free societies in the world, it's actually diminished in
recent years. So I think that living in a free society and having the opportunity to express openly different views and different opinions, you know, I constantly think about the example of the Stazi in East Germany as recently as the late eighties, where one in four people was an informer for the Stasi, and if you said anything that wasn't a part of the greed party line, you know, you could well end up being incarcerated it or worse.
So I think that we are incredibly blessed to live in a society where we're free to express our views, and we need to capitalize on that to resolve some of the real challenges that we face, and we need to be more aggressive and actually having those debates and those discussions to try and resolve some of the issues that we are facing.
To wrap this portion of it up, maybe let me just go back to DEI diversity, equity and inclusion and the culture. Give me a brief opinion on your part of.
It, I guess rather than explicitly addressing that, Layton, I would prefer to say that I think we need to be very mindful of and pay far greater attention to the values and views of the majority of people, the common sense that ordinary people bring to their lives, the fact that people in trades and skills have been considered to be, as a result of education policy over a long period, perhaps less worthy of listening to than people
who are university graduates. I think there's a great wisdom and ordinary people, and I think we need to pay
far greater attention to that. And what's happening in societies now, and I guess Britain would be an example, but possibly in other parts of Europe as well, is that there's a real backlash against the denigration of I guess the people that Hillary Clinton called the deplorables, and we actually do need to pay far more attention to ordinary people, the majority of people, the silent people, because at the end of the day, the society is made up of of a huge range of people, and we mustn't only
think that there is one set of values and opinions which are acceptable.
I'd suggest to you that you could spend your entire duration in this position when you uptake it on that particular front, without having time for anything else, such as the current situation.
How about we actually take more time to tell stories in this country about what it means to be a New Zealander, about the stories of people with a Mildi Paki pacifica, refugees from Afghanistan, and actually start to tell these stories. And I know in places like Nelson they've set up cultural conversations to try and facilitate some of
these discussions. Let's do more of that. Let's do more of talking with each other and discussing and working out what it is that we have in common, given that there are only five million of us on these septed
aisles at the bottom of the world. World, Let's have more stories, Let's have more conversations, and let's listen not just to the to the the people who are more inclined to express their views, for example, on social media, but to actually listen to ordinary people going about their lives, struggling with lives, great life's great challenges, and pay more credence to the fundamental decency of New Zealanders and how we might celebrate that and what it is that we have in common.
On that or off the back of that, do you consider that education is part of your flock?
In a word, not directly but I think that when we look at the issues around the future of New Zealand and the need for dialogue and discussion and debate and research, then the universities have a critical role to play, and I'm quite fascinated by how that they might be better engaged in contributing to addressing some of the challenges
that we face later. So no, it's not part of my brief but inasmuch as they have a role to play when it comes to us addressing issues and facilitating discussions, which is really what this is all about, then I would like to think that the universities had a role to play, and that I might engage with them about the contribution they could make to that objective.
You know, we've got this. We've got this far, Stephen, and no one, no one, neither of us has mentioned the word speech, specifically free speech. Well, how do you define free speech? Are there limitations on it and what role does it have to play?
Well, at the risk of giving a rather simplistic view, I think that free speech is the fundamental underpinning of a free society and that any compromises on it need to be extraordinarily well thought through and considered and so I would be very much a champion of free speech as the best way for society to discuss issues, to bring issues, even that we might find quite deplorable, out into the open, and to expose them to the sunlight, and to debate them and to question them and to
challenge them for example. And I don't say I'm not saying this with any value judgment. I'm just saying that in response to recent events, I see Brian Tammocke, for example, has said some anti gay comments. I am a gay man. He is entirely entitled, in my opinion, to say those things. But then I will challenge him to debate them or not me personally. But although I could do, he needs to be challenged and these issues debated, and that is the way in which we will find the truth of
the matter. So I think once you start to compromise free speech, you really start to chip away at one of the fundamental underpinnings of a free society. And as I have said repeatedly throughout this discussion, we are blessed and privileged to live in a free society. Every advantage that I have, for example, received as a gay man as a result of living in a free society with free speech, and I think any diminution of free speech needs to be extraordinarily carefully thought about.
Do you think that there is a global struggle developed or developing over the erosion of free speech among countries that helped define help define this right.
Well, I think there's a lot of things happening globally. I'm fascinated by what's happening globally, whether it be an Europe, whether it be in the States. And when I say globally, I'm talking about the free world. And I don't think that the trends are universal in any of those places. There's some competing trends, and I think they're utterly fascinating in terms of what's happening. So, for example, and again I need to emphasize, I'm saying this as someone who
studied politics for forty years. I did my PhD actually on the emergence of green parties. Later, but in the last European elections, for example, young the first voters swung heavily to the right. So when we say that there are these battles going on, there's actually micro trends and or perhaps broader trends as well that seem quite generationally influenced, and I think therefore it's while it might be easy to say that there is a trend towards opposing free speech,
that in fact there are other trends going on as well. Look, the reality is social media, as toxic as it can be, arguably provides the greatest level of free speech that any civilization and history has ever enjoyed. So we've got the democratization of speech through social media, for example. So there
are a range of trends going on. I guess rather than saying that there is any one particular thing happening, I would come back to the fact that we have a duty, and particularly at the Human Rights Commission, to vigorously defend free speech because of the fact that that is so essential to addressing the issues and finding a way forward where there are competing views and interests on the critical issues that we are facing.
I think most people think that free speech is the very foundation of freedom of liberty.
I hope, I hope.
So are you familiar with the satirist C. J. Hopkins. No American has lived in Germany for quite a number of years now, and satire is his main game. But he comments on all sorts of other things, and he substacks now and more recently, et cetera. But let me just say that in some circles he's very well known, other circles, not New Zealand being one of those latter circles. But he is going through at the moment a scenario that I'll describe to you as quickly as possible. In Germany,
he was charged. He was charged with a crime for publishing a book that included a swastika on the cover. It was satire, and a couple of other I think social media comments that he made. He was charged with a serious crime. The details I don't have in front of me at the moment, but take my word for it. He was convicted in the in the lower court, and he won his appeal in the in the appeal court,
and that was that. So he thought, he's now going through a second trial where they have they have charged him a second time, even though being found innocent the first time. In the end, and he's being he's being persecuted. And there are other examples of similar similar shall we say, usage of the swastika that have not been persecuted at all. So he's being he's being targeted by the by the by the German courts. Would you have any reaction to that?
I mean, if they start in Germany, then where might it finish?
Well, I think there's a reason why there would be a particular sensitivity towards the use of the swastika in Germany. Of course, Laighton, So I guess I manifested obvious the point though I would, without knowing anything about the details of that case, I would come back to the fact
that the freedom to openly discuss these things. But look, this might seem to you as if I'm obfiscating, But I think of greater concern to me is the fact, well, let's just say, something which is of real concern to me is the fact that when young Americans, for example, and perhaps it would be no different here us, what is the Holocaust? Most have no idea. So this is
what I think is a real issue. We have lost a sense of these critical historical atrocities and what their implications are now for the way in which society and its freedoms have evolved, not least of which is the Universal Declaration on Human Rights in nineteen forty eight. So we might focus on the court case that you're talking about. But I think perhaps the border issue is the loss of any historical knowledge about what the significance of that advance might be.
I'll advance your statement. I'm aware of a young journalist in a newsroom in this country who asked that question, what what what? What's the what's the Holocaust? And that that only adds weight to what you're saying, of course, but why is it? So there's part of the education system that I could attach to your future.
It's looking like a very fullsome future.
I think. I think I'm wondering whether you actually realize what you've taken on. Look at this.
I'm wondering that too.
I do have to ask you this feel compulsed. I've going to quote you and then I'll tell you who made the comment. The US debt and money printing system is collapsing. The West is heading into an economic wasteland. The Middle East is on fire, Russia dominate Ukraine and NATO bricks is ending US hegemony and the fake rules based order US puppets are failing everywhere. Genocide, propaganda, censorship,
and rigged elections are the new normal. Humanity is facing the abyss as World War III seems inevitable, and I won't play games with you because that would be unfair. It concludes. Oh, and the obedient US colony in the South Pacific just decided to extradite me for what users uploaded to mega Upload unsolicited and what copyright holders were able to remove with direct delete access instantly and without question.
But who cares? That's justice these days? Would you consider that situation with kin dot com to be if you were currently in the position that you have been awarded, would you consider that to be part of your realm?
The short answer is, on a very practical level, that immigration issues do come before the Human Rights Commission, and in all the talk about abstract ideas and concepts, there are My understanding is at least twelve hundred people last year who used the Commission services for addressing particular issues, and I think it's very important to stay focused on those because this is one of the critical services that
the Commission provides. About twelve hundred. Of those of the twelve hundred, about one hundred and fifty I understand go to mediation, where one of our roles is quote unquote community peacekeeping, and so I think that we've got a big role to play in that space. I think the so immigration issues, yes do come before the Human Rights
Commission number two. I just think when it comes to painting this very bleak picture of the future, that we also need to focus on some of the very positive things that have happened in that are happening and have
happened in the world. It's not all bleak, and there are many extraordinary things happening, whether they are technological, whether they're to do with health, whether they're to do with the doubling of life expectancy in the last one hundred and fifty years, whether to do with the fact that gay people can now lead a life in this country
without any legal impediment whatsoever. We've made enormous progress, and there is enormous progress being made on many issues that we might choose to focus on rather than painting such a bleak picture of the future. What I do think we do need to do, and this is again reiterating what I hope has been a common theme, is that we need to rigorously defend the freedoms that we have.
We need to be incredibly grateful and appreciative for the sacrifices that have led us to where we are now, and we need to recognize that human rights are fragile, and that civilization is fragile, and we need to vigorously defended.
That was a very diplomatic and eloquent statement, and I find no fault with it. As somebody once said, I wonder, then, could you give me an example, give us an example of a freedom, a right that we are in short supply of, that has been diminished for us, that needs attention.
Well, we get into in answering that, we get into the issue of defining what a human right is.
But first of all, sorry, but first of all, can you remember there was a question asked of a would be judge what is a woman? Can you tell me what a woman is? My question to you is what is a human?
Well, one of the interesting things about that is that artificial intelligence is going to bring that question into very stark relief later, which is why I mentioned it earlier as one of the enormous challenges for human rights going forward, because actually that seriously probably brings into very stark belief the fact that that that question is going to have a degree of significance now which it hasn't had for a long time. Unless we were to go into the
spiritual realm. So that's an area that I think the Human Rights Commission needs to do a lot of working, and it is because of the impact of AI, and I think that's going to bring the answer to your question into very stark relief.
Do you do you believe, as most people seem to, that that AI is something really serious, really really prominent or will be prominent. Yes, in our lives.
Yes. If you read people like Uval Harari, arguably one of the more intelligent commentators on what's happening in the world today, he says that this is the number one challenge facing humanity now. He's also very clear about the fact that, you know, if we don't take control of
our lives ie personal responsibility, that the algorithms will. And while that's not directly related to AI, I think it's also very opposite point that really, you know, we're in an age now with technology, whether it's AI or algorithms generally, where basic human rights and the way that we've lived
to date are going to be under increasing challenge. Hence, I go back to my point consistently reiterated that civilization as fragile, we're going to be more and more easily manipulated, and we need to rigorously defend free speech and freedoms wherever we see them under attack.
Which opens the door to about ten more different avenues that that I could undertake. I'm looking at a headline Pandemic Preparedness and the Road to International Fascism from the American Journal of Economics and Sociology. I think that's self explanatory. But there is a There is an attached headline New Zealand codifies forced injections in martial law pandemic plan I
presume that you're familiar with that. Yes, I think that if there is, if there is an example of a diminished right, as we were discussing before, then that is probably it. A friend of mine who's an American living here texted me when that announcement came out very recently, and he was explicit in his objection to it and how he would deal with it, cope with it if it ever came to pass that he was being forced into, forced physically into an injection that he didn't want. Is
that is that? Does that fall into your into your realm of areas that we need to protect because because it's been abused like crazy over the last few years.
I have no doubt that there will be people looking to the Human Rights Commission if that situation occurs. I don't know enough about what is proposed to make any comment on that now, Laton, but what I would say is that I was reading something from Chris Finleyson, the former Attorney General recently, who talked about New Zealander's reaction to the lockdown and how we were all too ready
to dB in a neighbor who stuck their head out. No, I can't remember the example he used, but there were certainly a lot of people reporting on their neighbors for what were perceived to be infringements of the lockdown and our willingness to do that. And I guess that highlighted for me yet again that while we're having all these abstract discussions that actually our individual behaviors, our individual responsibilities, are absolutely critical to whether or not we have a
free society. Our willingness to dobbin people who are perceived to be perhaps infringing on those requirements was a concerning part of what we witnessed during the lockdown, as Christopher Finlayson was reporting it. So again, these issues have a lot of other implications which I think we need to
take responsibility for. But in terms of what you're actually asking, I am no doubt that the Commission will be asked about this, and I am not informed enough about the full implications of this and what is planned to make any meaningful comment on it. Now.
As a matter of interest, will you be pursuing that information.
I think it's inevitable that the Commission will be asked and approached about this, and therefore I will need to get up to speed with this issue. And you know, I would reiterate I haven't actually taken up the role yet, but I would certainly imagine that this will be on the radar of the Commission.
I can I just add a clip on that a precursor to what I've just said. Really, if we were starting from a different, a different angle, and that is that the the moves of recent times by the World Health Organization to formulate an international approach to this, there's been there has been much discussion about it, and if ever there was an example of the dangers of that, then this latest codification here, I would suggest, fits it slots into it and should and should should increase the
concern that some people have and I don't need it. I don't need a response to that, really if you don't want, I just wanted to make the comment going back to the person thing, what is a human? This to me is something that I think is an area that is going to become increasingly important. I an Hersey Ali wrote, wrote a column yesterday. You know of whom I've speak. I won't even ask you wrote, wrote wrote a piece yesterday the abortion election, and I'm not going
to go into it any any further than that. I just use it as a use it as a hook, because here's another one. California bill mandating pregnancy dignity for birthing persons passes Health committee, and you can see where I'm going with this. Add issue is Assembly Bill two three one nine, introduced by Democratic assembly Woman Laurie Wilson and sponsored by the California Attorney General Rob Mont, which says the legislature recognizes all both in people, including non
binary persons and persons of transgender experience close quote. The bill additionally mandates implicit bias training for existing medical professionals by June one, twenty twenty five, and within six months of those opening new practices, the point being that the bill will allow abortion right up to the moment of birth, and some are pushing for it beyond birth. So you've got two aspects to it. One is the birthing person one the other is the human being given birth. In
other words, sixty seconds before passing through the canal? Is that individual a human? I'm not doing this purposely to irritate you. I'm concerned with regard to definitions and where the future lies.
And the thing that we might take from that later and is that this is a bill. Therefore, there is the opportunity with a bill for all sides of this discussion and this debate to be had, including contrary views, including supportive views, because we have institutions within our society that are designed specifically to facilitate that kind of dialogue
and debate. Now that doesn't exist in totalitarian societies, and the fact that this bill will be vigorously debated, I have no doubt, is something that we should be heartened by because we actually have the opportunity to participate in next frawing issues like that with all their contention and all the divergent opinions. So you know whether it's courts, whether it's councils, whether it's parliament. We've got the vehicles
in place to have those debates. Let's have those debates, because there is clearly, as you've just indicated with that example, there are movements pushing different agendas in the space. Let's celebrate the fact we've got the institutions to explore those in detail, to hear the divergent views, and to make decisions without what's traditionally been the case, which is the use of thuggery or tyranny to resolve these kinds of issues.
I've got to add the California is a one party state, but the running vice presidential candidates for the Democratic Party in America is the governor of a state, and his state has already introduced it. I leave that with you for your consideration, because again I think I said mentioned something like this earlier. We've both watched developments, especially in a progressive environment like some of America is, and that's where things start and they seem to spread fairly quickly
over a period of time. But I do want to ask you that re ask you the question, though, in your opinion, is a baby that's about is a fetus. It's not a fetus anymore. Is it a human? Does it fall into the category of human rights that that child be born?
Layton. I'm actually heading to the States shortly to observe the American elections, and I'll be in California with my daughter who lives in LA and so I'm going to be exposed firsthand to some of these debates. I guess that it highlights the fact that, you know, it's been
called the culture wars, call up what you will. We've got these real contentious issues going on, and we've got a variety of viewpoints on them, and we don't have you talk about California as a one party state, but really, you know, compared to one party states like the Soviet block up until nineteen eighty nine or any other or what's happening in Afghanistan at the moment, we actually still
have democratic debate and discussion. And I have no doubt that the American election is going to be a graphical illustration of how those competing views are going to be tested out in the electoral arena, with everybody able to have their say. And that's what we should be celebrating. And I'm looking forward to observing that firsthand when I head to observe the US elections later on the air.
I was going to go, and I may still go, but at the moment I'm not going.
Anyway.
Let us conclude with one short paragraph and a quick reaction from you. Equality is in bad odor on the right these days. This is hardly new. Traditionalists have always had suspicions about America's theoretical foundation in equal natural rights, although the feeling has become more widespread in recent years as the cancer of diversity, equity, and inclusion seeps into
every organ of American society. The reigning ideology of the ruling class contends that we are born unequal, either victims or oppressors, and it is the duty of our scientifically trained experts to correct this injustice by making us, at their emphasis, making us all equal. Final comment, I.
Am so grateful to be living in a society where we can even have these kinds of discussions, and we can have different views on them late And that's what I really am grateful for, because for much of humanity that's still not the case, and for much of human history it hasn't been the case. For the vast majority
of people. So look, honestly, we've got huge challenge ahead of us, and I look forward to playing some small role at the Human Rights Commission to making sure that these issues are debated and that we maintain that freedom of speech which is so essential to reaching the truth and as much as we can on these matters.
Well, I look forward to you putting a headlock on the universities in that regard the Human Rights new Chief Commissioner, Stephen Rainbow. It's been a great pleasure talking with you, and I will be very intrigued at the reaction that we get, or that I get in particular. Thank you so much for your time, and may it not be the last.
It's been a pleasure, latent, thank you so much.
Light and Smith, missus producer. Welcome to the mail room for podcast two hundred and fifty.
Two late and how are you very well?
I just I have to share with you something. I was just lying in the sun in the back room for ten minutes with my eyes closed and it was sinsational.
I did I tell you last week that I was sitting out the back reading a book and literally had to come in. I think I mentioned this last week. So we're so starved for sunshine and this time of the year, aren't we But it's been fantastic winter. The long on the short of that was that I actually had to come in it was too hot. Exactly lovely, we love the sunshine. Let me start late in Jin says, I waited ages for this, so I was overjoyed when
I realized you were interviewing Professor Robert McCulloch. He is especially good at turning the spotlight on the bad politicians. In your podcast alone, he exposed utterly crap policies from Jasinder r Dern, who granted a monopoly to the supermarket duopoly during COVID, Adrian Or's engineering of three recessions, and grant Robertson and Michael Baker's totalitarian COVID policies which resulted in none of the promised good health outcomes nor good
economic outcomes. In fact, on roberts Down to Earth Kiwi blog, he recently exposed Helen Clark and Jacinder r Dern's hand in wrecking New Zealand's health system. I quote former pms Helen Clark and Jacinder ar Durn should come clean about how they were the chief architects of the omni shambles that has become our health system. Health New Zealand has
succeeded only at being a large scale disaster. What seconds me, he says, says Jin is that every single one of these names mentioned continue to be rewarded for their failures. In fact, our durn is off to the Democratic National Convention to support compulsive liar and impostor KRMLA Harris.
Look, you're going to be right at home.
Birds of bad feather flocked together, so we need bird hunters like Robert McCulloch to take aim at them and remind people of the harm they have done to New Zealand society. People like him, Des Gorman and Elizabeth Rater give me hope that the University of Auckland has not completely gone to the dogs. Thanks so much for getting Robert on your podcast. He was so easy to listen to. I think I'm actually going to listen to podcast two fifty one again.
Well, there is more of the same that's been and is coming. I've promoted this letter to the top of my grouping based on what you were just based on what you were just reading, because it's touches on similar things, but it comes with a different approach. High Layton, I feel obliged to point out a delusion shared by you both. When he says shared by you both, I refer to the subject line at the top of the email Latest podcasts with Robert McCulloch. So I repeat, I feel obliged
to point out a delusion shared by you both. In talking about our abysmal productivity. You both rubbished the efforts of Descinda and Robertson to introduce modern socialist methods to run the country. Surely, surely you should acknowledge the facts of history. To run a country on laissez faire capitalist
principles is an invitation to chaos. The lessons of recovery from the Great capitalist Depression of the nineteen thirties, whereby the US President Roosevelt reorganized the US economy along centrally planned socialist as far as he was politically able lines, or the lessons of post World War II in Britain by the Attlee government, whereby the vast industries were nationalized and put under expert direction with profit motives removed, or on an even greater scale, where Stalin and later Mao
lifted their previously primitive economies up by their bootstraps. Is set against these historical realities. How could you both bang on about New Zealand's poor productivity and that more ad hoc capitalism might save the day. Surely we must plan at the highest political level to get rid of profit and lead our people to a brighter, fairer future. Okay, I acknowledge a few costs. Getting rid of the fat
cats is a small issue. And yes, as the peasants of the old USSR and the People's Republic of China might acknowledge the few millions who starved to death. But after all, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few shells. Viva the Revolution, comrades bring back to sender only she will be able to explain by imprisoning the wealthy and starving the peasants is really an act of great kindness. I hope you accept this gentle economic lesson regards.
Great podcast, by the way, Robert, I love a good piece of satire.
That's cute, Leighton Dave says, I know you support the efforts of the Taxpayer Union, as do I. I particularly
enjoyed your recent podcast with Jordan Williams. It is likely, therefore, that you have seen their recent Taxpayers Union articles, which highlight the utter nonsense which is contained in the description of many of the so called research projects funded by the Marsden Fund, an organization which seems to be overwhelmed by its own importance and which splurges millions of dollars annually on grants to projects whose applications are so full
of incomprehensible, woke rubbish at beggars belief. In two recent emails to my local MP and a couple of government ministers, I have asked who assessors the worth of these projects and approves the fund, and who, if anybody, checks that the research has produced any meaningful result that can be used for any meaningful purpose. I've had no reply and don't really expect to get one. Perhaps this is something you might like to mention in your podcast, So there
we've mentioned it, Daveyi. The latest Taxpayers Union article can be found at Taxpayers dot or. I have become an avid listener, and while I may skip some of the American commentators, I enjoy those who speak on matters close to home. Robert McCulloch was great. I hope you have one again in the future. Keep up the good work, Dave.
Dave, I'm interested in your comment about the American commentators because I've had two letters sort of along similar lines in the last week. I think another one might have been two weeks ago, or maybe a year ago. I can't remember. There's not many of them, but I'm interested to know why you feel that way, because I will take it on as a personal ambition to change your mind. Oh it's my turn.
I was busy rolling my eyes.
Sorry, got to be careful with this, but it was forwarded to me by Brian Leyland from a friend of his. He says it was catching up on my Layton Smith podcast while driving today and had the pleasure of being surprised by your recent peace on the show was very good.
I thought was great to hear the piece about the market structure brought up again, as that does not get mentioned too often, and the discussion about the market not being a real market in elasticity, etc. Also some enjoyable comments about general intelligence levels and lack of understanding about how it all works, shared by yourself and Layton. Hope all is well. And then there's a personal comment which
I'll leave out and I won't name him. I just thought i'd throw that in because Brian said it to me, so fair game, Layton.
Chris is writing from Australia actually in the act camera and he says, after hearing from Brian Leyland in podcast two fifty, that the retail price of electricity in New Zealand is thirty cents a killer?
What hour?
I went to my latest power bill to see what we pay in the act we have three different rates. Peak usage of thirty seven point five cents, shoulder usage of twenty six cents, and off peak usage of twenty three twenty three point one cents per killer? What our shoulder usage of twenty six cents and off peak usage of twenty three point one cents per killer?
What hour?
Which averages out to about twenty nine cents per killer?
What hour?
Not much different to the thirty cents In New Zealand. Before the most recent increase in the tariffs, we were paying an average for about twenty five cents per killer?
What hour?
That's from Chris.
Okay, from Tim, I've just listened to your excellent episode of August fourteen. Your guest was excellent and it was so refreshing to hear an academic pushing back against the woke nonsense of Saint Dame Jacinda Hipkins Robinson and their partners in crime from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty three. Your episode should be compulsory listening for all fifth, six
and seventh form us. Isn't it lovely to see that the Sainted One is sharing her wisdom and knowledge with the Democrats their convention this week, Kamala and whilst her bizarre choice of running mate will benefit from her depth of expertise in socialism aka progressivism. God save us from the legacy media and their cheerleading and truth telling. After all, the legacy media are never purveyors of misinformation. I should
bread that again with a different tone. I think below, for your entertainment is an excellent article on the climate emergency hoax from the Daily Skeptic, all of and I look forward to to this week's podcast. Interestingly enough, I had that piece out for use elsewhere and didn't get round to it.
So Laton, this is from Vincent and we've just had an argument because I swear that I read this last week. Laden you say no, I can't have done. Because the date is the fifteenth of August, which is after last week's podcast, but it just goes to remind us, sort of proves it kind of reminds us, isn't it because we read these a few days in advance, or read them to each other as they come in and talk
about them. So, folks, if ever you hear one redone one week, it's because we simply can't remember what we've done.
And you're lucky and if you've missed one, then you get.
To hear it twice.
How good is that?
So forgive me. I'm pretty sure. Layton tells me we haven't read this, but Vincent, thank you for your email. He says, this is just to let you know that as I sit in a rooftop Paul here in Bermuda, that's what reminded me that i'd read it before. Contending with the over thirty degree temperatures, your podcast sounds as amazing and as informative as it does anywhere on the globe.
Last week it worked in Marseille too. Your podcast also works brilliantly at thirty thousand feet when traveling long haul, as the topics and guests translate perfectly. No need for airline movies and TV shows when you can pre download your own favorite podcasts and listen at your leisure anyway. I'll be listening in a couple of weeks time to your latest edition as I mow the lawn on my return to Auckland. Congratulations on the fifty years. We value
and depreciate your hard work. And then Vincent says, missus producers, obvious support and encouragement. Please keep up the great work. As I've said before, Vincent, he does it all himself. I'm just here to make cups.
Of tea, not.
I used to do it for Even in the studio he does.
He's the team maker.
Well, I learned from the best.
Thanks oh Meryll.
Yes, now from Harrison. This is a little long, but I'm going to read it anyway. I want to share an experience that I had recently after deciding to return to university after a thirty year hiatus. So I enrolled at my local university with the intention of exploring some further education in the hope of generating an opportunity for
another career before I can no longer work. After experiencing the initial culture shock and realizing that I was probably the oldest guy in the lecture theater, I commenced my re education well. The first lecture was introduced by a professor, supported by the use of a visual presentation screen. The professor went on to state that she was a Socialist and further added that her father had been a great
admirer of Lenham. The lecture screen includes a picture of the Russian Marxist of Vladimir Lenin, who was responsible for the deaths of millions of Russians. Was that one earlier, Robert, Robert, are you listening? I looked around the theater, seeing one hundred or so students intently absorbed in the Lesson The following day, I attended another lecture, this time on a different subject, specializing in psychology and its connection to our
criminal justice system. Early into the lecture I realized that the underlying theme of this education was underpinned by the premise that our colonial passed a New Zealand disregard for mary customary law were the reasons why mary were overrepresented in our criminal justice system. This view was later reinforced by the coarse reading material. Without a doubt, I believe any counter argument in any reading assessment would have guaranteed
a failing grade. Anyway, on to another lecture, this time psychology, where such as cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and echo chambers were banded around, before moving on to gender based education, where one professor even suggested that male and female babies are born with exactly the same brain and that masculine and feminine differentiation is a social construct anyway it goes on all these experience, it is a he isn't it, Harrison,
I haven't made a mistake. All of these experiences began to make me feel like an insurgent, a heretic who had to watch his every thought and guard his every opinion in an upside down world where left is right and up is down. I felt that my common sense and intuition were under assault. I can see without a shadow of a doubt what this institution is all about. It peddles in doctrination. It is an institution at the center of society's drive toward collectivism or in other words, communism.
I lasted two weeks at my local university. I came away deeply saddened by all the young people being exposed to this indoctrination and a social ideology. I came away feeling that New Zealand doesn't have a chance. But then last night I watched the film Beneath Sheep's Clothing, a documentary that explores the Commonist's takeover through educational indoctrination in the former Soviet Union. Add its comparison to woke ideology taught in our schools. It is very good and anyone
who cares about freedom needs to watch it. In fact, pushing back against communism is an excellent career option, and we have work to do. Also, your podcast is excellent, so please keep doing what you're both doing. I have to say that I have already adopted that career, Harrison. I have already adopted that career, as you may have noticed, and it's intensifying, missus producer.
See you next week, lovely, Thanks Layton.
Now it seems it's never ending. But another little example of the war on free speech, this time from the EU, and I quote. The latest salvo in the ongoing battle between Elon Musk and the European Union came courtesy of
the X owner. He revealed that in a run up to the European elections, X was offered quote an illegal secret deal if the platform would agree to secretly censoring online speech then the European Commission would not find it for violations of its new online content moderation law, the Digital Services Act. X refused to cooperate, but all the other major platforms accepted the deal, so confirming that the
world is full of corruption and hypocrisy. So back to the University of Auckland's media release, does climate reporting make a difference? You may as well ask I think does the nightly weather report change the weather? Just a thought anyway, what I wanted to include because it deals with this issue particularly appropriately, why corporate retreats from social activism is
good for everyone. In January, Axious reported axius is, a news organization of sorts, reported a developing trend in corporate America. Corporations across the United States were backing away from DEI diversity, equity and inclusion. And by the way, that's what they're calling Kamala Harris at the moment the DEI candidate. Actually that goes back to the twenty twenty election. She was the DEI candidate and then she was the DEI vice president. Now she might very well be well now she won't
in fact, but she could be the DEI president. Anyway, Where was I. In January, Axios reported a developing trend in Corporate America. Corporations across the United States were backing away from DEI, which had become a minefield for companies following a multi year boom in diversity, equity and inclusion space following the death in twenty twenty of George Floyd.
Corporations were pulling back on DEI initiatives. The risks were too great, especially in what was expected to be a politically charged election season amid growing attacks from conservatives targeting woke corporations, of which there are many. Axius wasn't wrong about the trend, which has only picked up steam this summer, so here's some examples. In July, John Deere announced that it was stepping away from DEI efforts and would cease
sponsoring social or cultural awareness events. The announcement came a week after Business Insight reported that Microsoft had laid off its entire DEITAM. Microsoft's action, in turn, had come just weeks after Tractor Supply, a Brentwood, Tennessee based company, decided to pull the plug on its social activism efforts in the face of a social media campaign targeting the company. The backlash against DEI has been so intense that the term itself appears to be going the way of the DODO.
The Society for Human Resource Management recently announced it was ditching the word equity from its acronym. DEI is just one form of corporate social activism, which comes in various forms and includes its cousin environmental social and governance ESG. Both ideas fall under, to some degree, corporate social responsibility, known as CSR, the idea that corporations have a duty to take social and environmental actions into consideration in their
business models. Now, if you're wondering why Burger King has commercials on climate change and cowfarts, and why bud Light's commercials went from featuring Rodney Dangerfield and Bob Uker I don't know his name, Bob Buker to transactivist Dylan mulvaney, it's because of CSR. Corporate social responsibility, the idea that corporation should fight for social causes, has skyrocketed in recent years in such to such an extent that activism is
inhibiting companies in their primary mission. Well, who would have guessed generating profits by serving customers. Bud Light's decision to feature. I'm picking from this article as it's fairly lengthy. Bud Light's decision to feature mulvaney costs them an estimated one point four billion dollars in sales, and it revealed the danger of corporation's leaning into social activism, particularly campaigns and policies that alienate their own customer bases. I'm not alone.
I know every one of you would have thought the same thing when you saw because we all saw them. When we saw that idiotic ad with that idiotic individual, you just knew it was going to blow the company apart. Anyway. Not long ago, companies like Chick fil A faced backlash from progressive activists for progressive activists you know of the adernkind for supporting traditional marriage. Culture war advocates on the
right have responded in similar fashion. Conservative influences have made a point in raising awareness around woke corporate initiatives, white privilege campaigns, climate change goals, LGBTQ events. The most successful ones, such as Robbie Starbuck, who pioneered the campaign against Tractor Supply and John Deere, made a point targeting corporations with conservative consumer bases. Starbuck recently told The Wall Street journal. If I started a boycott against Starbucks now I know
it wouldn't get anywhere near the same result. One can support Robbie Starbucks's tactics or oppose them. What's clear is that corporations increasingly face risks for participating in social activism campaigns, and the threats now come from both sides of the political aisle CSR Corporate social responsibility can help business reach the goals of social justice and economic prosperity by creating welfare for a broad range of social groups beyond the
corporations and their shareholders. He wrote, this is a version of stakeholder capitalism, an idea that says corporations must look beyond serving customers to generate the profits for shareholders. Various other stakeholders must be considered. No, they mustn't, and it's already,
as we're discovered, proving to be a huge failure. I remember there was in New Zealand there was a situation where something that was happening in the north of the North Island from memory, got interfered with, if your pardon the expression, got interfeed with by so called stakeholders in the bottom of the South Island who had no investment in the operation whatsoever. Other than this sort of attitude
gave them permission to be troublesome. Over time, other incantations of stakeholder capitalism emerged, including ESG, which stemmed directly from a two thousand and four report Who Cares Wins spearheaded by the United Nations Asset Management Groups and Banks. Its purpose was to develop guidelines and recommendations on how to better integrate environmental, social, and corporate governance issues in asset management, securities,
brokeraage services, and associated research functions. These guidelines and recommendations eventually morphed into a global ESG framework which graded publicly traded companies on social responsibility. Now, while corporations are free to inject values into the workplace and support social and religious programs, they have no societal responsibility to do so. In fact, there are compelling reasons why they should not
be doing so. The Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman wrote what he is perhaps the most famous rebuttal to CSR in a nineteen seventy New York Times article titled a Freedman Doctrine. The social responsibility of business is to
increase its profits. Freedman accused champions of CSR of preaching pure and unadulterated socialism and being puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society, Which would probably be an appropriate place to terminate this. But I shan't Freedman understood the corporations do not have a social responsibility or a religious one beyond serving their consumers and generating profits. This is their raison deetre at
how they best serve society. They don't have a responsibility to spread religion, order champion diversity, or to stop climate change, or to promote equity. These values might be good, might be good, but it's not the responsibility of corporations to promote them. This is the most famous element of Freedman. Of the Freedman doctrine writes the order, but I don't
think it's the most important one. The most important line is Friedman's warning on the dangers of straying from this model, which he makes at the beginning of the same paragraph. The doctrine of social responsibility, taken seriously, would extend the scope of the political mechanism to every human activity. It does not differ in philosophy from the most explicitly collective doctrine. It differs only by professing to believe that collectivist ends
can be attained without collectivist means. This is the true danger of CSR stakeholder capitalism, or any of the alphabet soup acronyms that seek to replace capitalism with collectivist systems that seek to undermine the rights of property owners. Its risks extending politics into our private lives beyond its proper scope.
One of the hallmarks of a totalitarian society is that public and private leavers of power are utilized to enforce adherents to state dogmas, and Freedman was not the first to recognize the potential dangers of corporate social activism, and that shall do us. I think the article is extremely good, extremely timely, and valid to hang on to, better to put up in corporate boardrooms, and if you need to know where it comes from, here are the details. The author John Miltamore m I L T I m o ire.
He is the managing editor of pe dot org f W and a senior writer at ai e R, the American Institute of Economic Research. His writing and reporting has been the subject of articles in Time Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, Forbes, Fox News, and the Star Tribune. If you want to hang it on your corporate wall, that's how you will find it, Leighton Smith. That will take us out for podcast two five two do not forget.
Please that if you'd like to correspond, and we love your correspondence, the pithia the better when appropriate Layton at newstalksib dot co dot mz or Carolyn at newstalksib dot co dot mz. We shall return shortly with podcast number two hundred and fifty three in the meantime, As always, thank you for listening and we shall talk soon.
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