What Makes an Ideal Boss?

- Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast. - 70% of a person's engagement is because and directly related to their manager. 70% and you sit back and you say, okay, is it 79 or 70, 75, 65, 60%? I don't care. It's a lot. It's a lot. (upbeat music) - Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast. I'm here, Daniel Stewart with my brother, Peter Stewart and we are your hosts today. Welcome. - It's great to join everybody today.

Excited for another great conversation on leadership. - Fantastic. And as you have come to know, Leadership Growth Podcast is all about timely topics and insights to help grow your ability to be a great leader. So let's dive in. The first segment. (upbeat music)

Insight of the week, Peter. What's a great insight? That's right. What do you think? - So many things to think about. So many things. I spent this last week with a group of VPs I was doing some training, helping them become better leaders. And here was the theme that came up. And it actually stems from the Gallup book that came out a few years ago called "It's the Manager" which they surveyed thousands of work, individuals in the workplace.

And it's that identification of what does this new generation particularly millennials want in a boss? How has their perspective of a boss changed? And this one word change has, I think it's really helpful to adjust that mindset. They don't want a boss. They want a coach. And that fundamental difference between somebody who is directing and telling, which is more of that standard definition of a boss and I think in their minds, to somebody who is supporting and developing them.

That's what they want. So I think it's a helpful insight to keep in mind. - And are you seeing people understand that mindset or are they looking at it and going, I don't like it or I don't want to acknowledge the mindset? Because that's a fundamental change. - It's a big one. And I think especially for those who have been in that role of managing for a few more years, for a couple of decades to say, hey, what has worked for me in the past might not work for me in the future.

And it actually might be a source of why I've become so frustrated working with others nowadays. - Yeah. - So it's just a willingness. Can you shift and pivot your style of leadership that the need and the relationship you have with those, you are supervising for the better? - Yeah. Oh, that's good. Okay, I'm gonna stick with that theme. So my insight of the week actually happened a couple of weeks ago, but I'm gonna stick with the theme around the Gallup idea.

So I was talking to an OD or executive element round table group. We have a round table group in Milwaukee area where my home base is, and we gather every quarter or so with them. And one of the things we were talking about is the impact that managers have and the 70% number. 70% that Gallup has come out with time and time again, and it showcases the importance of 70% of a person's engagement is because and directly related to their manager.

70% and you sit back and you say, okay, is it 79 or 70, 75, 65, 60%? I don't care. It's a lot. It's a lot. And to be able to keep in mind that there is more than 50% of a person's engagement is directly related by the person they report to. So to your point, how that person then manages, how they coach, how they approach, how they empathize, how they clarify, it matters so much. And I'll just go one more step.

This idea that people can get promoted and figure it out, or you can just, I mean, maybe it happens, but really how can we accelerate that? How can we, oh, that's a whole nother topic, but anyway. - Oh, it's a big topic. I can tell you're a little passionate about it. As you get energized and talking, because no, learning how to be a good boss, how to be a good leader is not just, oh, it's solved by an increase in the paycheck. No, it takes intentional effort.

It takes a whole different skillset and a mindset to be able to do it. So I think that's a powerful data point you shared of that 70%, because it comes down to that relationship with their supervisor. What, man, so we can get the whole Spider-Man reference, with great power comes great responsibility. Yes, when you're promoted, when you're a manager, a supervisor, a boss, oh, the tremendous level of influence you can have on those that you lead.

Okay, so let me pivot with short little tangent here. As you brought up that 70%, and I liked the way you introduced that, it can be 65, it could be 70, the numbers aren't as important. This is where I think data points are more helpful than the actual data point itself, but the conversation that the data point starts. Well said.

And whether that's the conversation with yourself, as you do a little introspection and self-reflection, or whether it's a conversation you share with others and say, hey, what do you think of this? How does this fit? And I think that's just something, whether we're pulling a data point from Gallup or others, use them as conversation starters. - I love it. And then to be open for the conversation, instead of sticking or trying to poke holes, no, remain open.

Remain open for that conversation, 'cause it's the development conversation itself, and to then turn it into action of some sort. Yeah, love it. Okay, so this leads into the memory lane segment. (upbeat music)

You ready for it? So you and I talked briefly about this, and in fact, it segues into the bigger topic, the ideal boss. That's the topic we wanna tackle. So as a segue into it, share with everybody, and as a reminder, folks, so John Parker Stewart, our dad, founder of Stewart Leadership, we grew up with him trying to create, and he would come home and he would share with us all sorts of ideas about, oh, here's a new idea for a new module, or a new activity I could do with a group.

- All the time. Like all the time. - And so we would help brainstorm, or we would listen to it. And you know, as an eight-year-old, or a 10-year-old, or a 12-year-old, not a lot to add, but he likes to process out loud, and he gets excited about stuff, and so he's sharing this stuff. So Peter, share with everybody the origin of this ideal boss idea, because we both remember this, so please, memory lane, go for it. - I will. And now you've got me on a bit of a tangent.

I'm like, what is the musical theme? Do you, you know, what is, like how do you introduce memory lane? You know, do we have violins coming in? I don't know. So small tangent there. Well, we can have fun with that in post. As I'm thinking about this idea, and the memory of dad talking about this ideal boss, there's a story he will often share about his memory. And I've heard him say this, I don't know, I can't count how many times.

So he was standing in line at the supermarket, and he notices the cover of Reader's Digest. New listeners, Reader's Digest is a magazine. - Reader's Digest, that's no way that is, yeah. - A magazine that was published that would summarize books and other articles and things like that. Just a staple at the supermarket checkout line. Kind of the size of a TV guide. And now as I reference that, many people don't even remember what a TV guide is, but that's okay.

So about half size article, or half size magazine. So Reader's Digest on the cover was this question. Said the one question that will save your marriage. The one question. Not the 15, not the 10, not the three, but the one single question that will save your marriage. So his dad has relayed this, he grabs it, puts it down on the checkout area, buys the magazine, and as he's getting into the car, he opens it up. He's like, great, one question.

And then he sees the question, and the question is this. What is it like to be married to me? Is the question that you're supposed to ask. And like, wow, that cuts deep. What is it like to be married to me? So then dad, as he's thinking about leadership and professional, obviously he tries to apply this at home in his own marriage, but he thinks, wow, how can this be applied professionally? So he thinks about another relationship of a boss with those on their team.

What is it like to work for me? And that is the one question that can really help shape and improve your ability to be a better boss. To look at it through the eyes, through the lens, in the shoes of those you are leading and supervising. So that's a little memory lane, and this is going back decades, as dad would talk about that one Reader's Digest article, and how then he made that adjustment transition into the professional application. - Oh, so good.

So the one question, what is it like to work for me? And I remember distinctly hearing growing up this activity of the ideal boss activities. And so what that involves is getting together a group of leaders and being able to have them challenge each other and create a short list, five or 10 items, attributes, characteristics, skills, to describe what is the ideal boss that we want, that we expect, and that we can then hold ourselves to as a comparison set to help answer that question.

What would it be like, what is it like to work for me? What do we compare ourselves against? - And as we run that exercise in workshops, and in the past as dad would always call them seminars, you're making this list thinking through all of the bosses you might have experienced in your life. And you start to summarize this, and it's after that list is made that then you pose that question, why is this list not describing you? Or what is it about this list that doesn't fit you?

Or how do you change? 'Cause you go from this Mary Poppins list of all of the ideal perfect things, but then it's that transition to, oh, I'm supposed to be this. That's that question, what is it like to work for me? So the two by four across the head of, oh my, what do I need to change? How can I improve? - Oh, so good. And I can't tell you how many leaders that I've, especially through a one-on-one coaching or different workshops have challenged them to ask that question of others.

And at a minimum, at least ask themselves. And then I'll say, if you're feeling courageous, you can ask others, you can ask your team, you can ask your peers, you can ask others with whom you work, what is it like to work for me? And to do a deep reflection, to see am I showing up as the kind of person? So this activity for all of our listeners, two things to keep in mind.

If you wanna do this yourself, be asking yourself, what is it like to work for me and have that honest reflection, reflective conversation. But the other activity is to begin to identify what is your ideal boss? - Yeah. - What is that list for you? And just to help you along with that, we actually have written an article summarizing the nine characteristics of an ideal boss. And this has taken from decades of working with tens of thousands of leaders to clarify what are those characteristics?

Now you may have your own word choice, you may wanna add, you may subtract, but this is the main topic here. We wanna spend the rest of the time talking about what are the characteristics of an ideal boss? And we can chat through this, but I really encourage all listeners to be thinking about how you show up with each of these points. What would you wanna do differently? What would you add to this list? What is your own list? And how do you keep challenging yourself?

So we can go through these nine, we can comment on them. You'll see the article linked in the show notes afterwards as well, of course you can then reference. And to Peter's point around the numbers earlier, it's not so much the numbers, it's the conversation with yourself and with others. Okay, Peter. Yeah, please jump in. - Yeah, so I mean, good segue into talking about this topic.

And I think with any list and as you set up an ideal list of attributes, of characteristics, we are not in any way stating that there is one perfect way to lead. We're not saying that there is one way in which you're supposed to look or talk or act or all these things. We are trying in many ways to talk about, these are the principles to consider that then you are able to reflect on and say, how can this authentically fit with me and my style of leadership?

So you're trying to be the best you as a leader. You're not trying to just emulate and be a carbon copy of somebody else. - Oh, so well said. And to build on that, it's really what we so often will do in any sort of workshop or leadership program or coaching. It's like, here's a lot of ideas. Yes, we can talk about it and we can keep adding to it, but pick one thing. - Yes. - What's the one thing that you can then do today, this week, this month to make progress? So that's the challenge.

What's the one thing? All right, Peter, you ready?

I'm gonna say the first three and we can talk through it. How about that? Okay, so first one of these are not necessarily in any order per se, but the three here, ethical and honest as the first, the second, supportive and the third, available. As you're hearing this, Peter, what kind of thoughts, what do you have? - Well, first, I think as you look in the list and yes, it's presented in ordinal level in the article, they could really be interchanged numbers wise, except for that first one.

And I think it's intentional that ethical and honest is the first. That should be and will always be table stakes. Like it would be great if we get to a point where that doesn't even have to be mentioned, because that's what everybody does. But that may be an ideal world. - Right. - But you have to help ensure that everything you're doing is above board. It's ethical, it's honest. It is what sets the foundation so that then people trust you. - Oh, I love it.

And building on that, it's, are you actively spending time to build that trust with others? - Yeah. - And are you showcasing that your, what you're saying you're gonna do, you do? And is it compliant? And is it moral? Is it ethical? And is it straightforward and honest? - That is fundamentally so key. I'll never forget. I had a boss one time. And I had gotten to know her before she became my boss. And I saw her patterns of behavior toward others. And it was very alarming.

And it was one of those moments that I remember getting to know her or introduced her as my official boss. But because of the previous reputation, I just knew she did not have my back. She was not gonna be supportive. And it was all about her. Which in some ways, these first couple of ones, the honest and then also the available and supportive, it is not about you. And this ego management part is so key.

And so then it's making sure how available within your schedule, your energy, your being present, oh, and the amount of distractions that we have. I remember reading somewhere that we touch our phone over 2,500 times a day. And I remember reading that. I'm like, you've gotta be kidding. And then you start touching your phone. Oh, okay, I'm touching. And so how to be present, how do you be available and how to be supportive.

And that supportive idea kind of goes back to what you mentioned earlier on the coaching. To be able to then remember that two to one ratio, that we have two ears to one mouth, and to make sure that we're able to listen far more than speak, or at least know how to flex between the two. And it's not just 80% telling all the time, but to moderate and manage that.

So the available on your calendar, the supportive in terms of the listening ear to provide clear expectations and guidance, the honesty component, so key and all about, it's not about me, it's now about you. And how can I get work done with and through others, leveraging others and not just me. - Yeah, really, really well said, Daniel.

As you're looking and summarizing these, and it reminds me of one of the leadership gems that will often share, is it's amazing what can be accomplished when you don't care who gets the credit. And when you go in as the boss thinking, oh great, now the spotlight's on me. I'm gonna get all the credit, and all of the quote unquote minions below me are gonna do all the work. It's just a formula for you to be disappointed beyond means and fail.

So this idea of support, of coaching, of being there, it's not abandoning them, it's not a drop and run of here's a whole bunch of tasks for you to do, get it done by Friday, I'll see you. That you're in there, you're with them. And I think this does lead now to the next three that I'll read. As we look at provides clear expectations, listens to you, and consistent. As you think of those three, what comes to mind, Daniel, as you look at some of the connections between those three.

- I often will say the number one thing a great leader does is unapologetically set high and clear standards and expectations. If there's one thing that a leader needs to be able to do consistently, that is to set clear expectations. Expectations that are built around people's strengths and what you need to do and to stretch and to provide those clear expectations in conversation. So it's not just clear in your mind as the boss, it's clear in the other person's mind.

And there's able to be this dialogue, hence the listening. So you can clarify the expectations and say, okay, help me understand what you've heard. And what I find time and time again, these expectations, yes, there's a formal conversation, yes, you can write it down, yes, that's important. And it's the informal expectations. It's the assumed expectations.

And sometimes people can work in a situation and they're working with you as their boss, but they may have expectations from previous bosses that they're adding up, which may or may not fit. And so, yes, as a boss, you need to then go in and go, wait a minute, where are you at? Let's get in this situation, let's be clear, what are your expectations you're putting on yourself? What are the self-limiting beliefs perhaps? What are the above and beyond? Or because we wanna be present here.

And these are the expectations and let's get this clear. This expectation setting, I can't emphasize enough, it is not a one-time thing. It is over and over again and around that listening, that conversation to be able to make it two ways. - Oh, it's so true because we are not mind readers. As a boss gets anointed with their role, their title, as they get in that position, they're not immediately given this ability to read minds.

And so it's how do you help convey that expectation - So this last week, somebody shared with me a line that I will not forget. And they said the phrase, "The most dangerous agenda is an unwritten agenda." -Oh. -Which I really liked. The most dangerous agenda is an unwritten agenda. Meaning if we are not being very transparent and very clear of establishing those expectations of helping people know, this is what needs to happen, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

So I think that's a thing that can be targeted for, how am I doing in terms of setting expectations? And one of the best ways to do that is to ask and then listen for the response. - Right, and what you're not saying is, sometimes in a meeting without an agenda can be free flowing, it could be open, yes. You're not saying that, you're not saying, let's not have time that's open. What you're saying is, let's be clear about and agree upon generally where we're going.

Are we in a conversation for a decision? Are we in a conversation to be able to dialogue and brainstorm? Are we in a conversation to update? 'Cause those are often the three points that are existing why conversations happen. Let's be clear about this, because even the expectations there may fluctuate. And if you can't be crystal clear up front, acknowledge and let's create this as we go.

But the point is to get alignment as much as possible and to reduce then, to reduce that sixth point that you mentioned around consistency, reduce the tendency to be inconsistent. - Yes. - And to be able to increase the chance of being consistent. And oftentimes with that consistent factor, I think of the temptation that we have as bosses, as leaders to fluctuate our perspective.

So at certain times we may be hands off, we may let people go and then all of a sudden we may swoop in and we may not have told anybody that we've decided to swoop in and dive deep into the level of detail. And your people might be like, what the heck? This is not consistent behavior, I don't know why. And a boss has every prerogative to be able to then have different perspectives from which they, however, how do they explain their actions? How do they give people a heads up?

How do they clarify what they're doing? Because if you go in and out of high level to super detailed a lot, people may not know what to expect. - They won't know what to expect. - Right, how do you predict? - Yeah. - Yep. - Oh, it's so true. And just to go back to that point on the agenda, when I said that statement, it's not talking about an agenda for a meeting necessarily. It's about, it's referencing the hidden agendas that people have.

That really it's the political, why are you trying to do it? What's the angle you're trying to spin? How are you trying to do this? So it's just helping to get things above board. And so going back to this consistency comment, you can look at the research across and would people rather have a variable boss who you never know what's gonna show up each day? Or would you rather have a fabulous boss every day or a boss that you know, they're just an absolute tyrant.

And most people would rather have that horrible boss tyrant than just this unpredictable, because you never know. Is today gonna be, what's the weekend like? Oh, is it a month? What day are they? I mean, because you don't know how to prepare and respond. And that unpredictability, it just, it kills the morale of a team. So it's been, so we're not just talking about the level of interaction you have, but it's also how you show up. How volatile, how the range, what mood are you in that day?

How extreme is that? So it's just being very, very cognizant about how you're showing up. So that consistent word is loaded. Recognizing, yes, we have good days and bad days. But what is the deviation from that normal baseline on a good day and a bad day? And is it plus or minus 10, 15, 20%? Or is it plus or minus 90 in terms of just that alteration and change? - Oh, love it. Okay, you ready for the final three? - Yes. - We can talk through this.

The final three is recognizing your work so that you feel valued. Then the next, help you grow and develop. And the final one, providing feedback appropriately. And that word appropriate. This feedback motion is one of the most critical parts of being an effective boss, to have the courage to be able to provide feedback. Positive feedback, constructive, future oriented, specific, timely. Yes, all of these things. But to be able to recognize others so they feel valued.

Help them grow and develop and providing feedback. So key and to actually like carve out time. And you can do it after meetings, you can do it as you're walking, you can do a quick Teams call or all lots of ways, but to actually do it. - Yeah. And these really, when you look at them together, these three play into each other so well. Being able to highlight what are the positive things that they're doing as you're helping them feel valued or their contribution.

You're helping connect the dots of how their actions made a positive difference in something you're trying to do. And this isn't about helping the boss feel valued. No, you're trying to help members of your team feel valued in their contributions. And you're communicating that in a way so that they can continue to do those great things. You wanna help them grow. - Yeah. - Then as we're talking about that feedback, one of the biggest cautions I'll give, particularly for those I'm coaching.

And one of the reasons why this, you know, the annual performance review or performance appraisal notion, you know, that would actually be a great topic we could dive into down the road. Why it can be so problematic because here we have set aside this half hour, 40 minutes, an hour. And as a boss, I now get to deliver my laundry list of all the things that you should improve. It's too much for one person to take, any honest human.

After you've gotten one or two suggestions, it's okay, thank you, good, I'll work on that. So as we're giving that feedback, it's you try and do it little bits at a time so that people have that ability to act on it and do something about it. And just because someone asks you for feedback as their supervisor, it doesn't give you the right to now throw the entire book at them, of everything. - Yeah, yeah, the phrase catching people doing something right. - Yes, oh, it's a great word.

- We are so good at catching people doing things wrong. I mean, as humans, we're very good at this. So getting a habit, a mindset of how can I catch people doing things right and acknowledge it. And it doesn't have to be elaborate, it doesn't have to be like waiting for the big project to be finished. What about the meeting? What about the question they just offered?

What about the comment or the insight or the suggestion or the pausing, the listening that they, any of those things, let me find something they did right. Let me comment on it, let me make time so that they can feel that they were valued, that they were heard, that they were seen, that they belong, so critical. - Oh, you just said so many powerful phrases there and ending with, so they belong. You want them to feel that they belong.

And it's interesting because as you take an analogy in the tech sector, you're developing software, you're developing code, you're trying to build that out and you'll enter code and you'll try it out, see how that works and then you'll update it and you have version 1.1 and version 1.2 and 3. And as we apply that to our developing our people, we're not trying to help them jump from version 1.1 to version 5. It's little bits at a time.

It's that slow and steady accumulation of that feedback that's gonna help provide us. There is the caution for that leader to think, hmm, what feedback will help have some of the greatest impact for them? And then it turns into how can I support you? Yeah, we'll have to have a deeper dialogue on giving feedback. - This is great. Okay, time to wrap up, Peter. Lightning round.

(upbeat music) You get to go first, ask me a lightning round question. Go for it. - Lightning round question. Okay, Daniel, as we're talking about leaders, let's think about those first level leaders, new managers. You have just learned that a colleague has been promoted to be a manager for the first time. What is the one piece of counsel advice you'd give them? - Oh, I love it.

So for a new manager, the one thing I would strongly recommend to them would be to be crystal clear about your expectations for others as well as for yourself. Write them down, talk about them, review them, be crystal clear about these expectations of what you're wanting others to then do and how and when you will be following up on those expectations as well. So they can be a conversation, but clarifying expectations as much as possible. - So powerful. - There we go.

Okay, I got one for you, Peter. - Okay. - Let's take it from the manager level to an executive. An executive level leader. What's the one thing that an executive level leader needs to do to be a great boss? - That's a great question 'cause there's a lot of things to consider, but the one thing is to never lose sight of the ending outcome of those decisions.

As you become layered and layers away from boots on the ground of those executing and delivering, you have to stay in touch with how those decisions you are making impact the workforce. You can't get caught up in the Kool-Aid of just the conversation of the theoretical up at the top. You have to keep that connection. So how do you do that? You have to keep the communication lines open and I'd advise continuing to do skip level type meetings and having very open candid dialogue. - Love it.

Staying in touch so that the business and people results side are clear. The impact of your decision-making is clear and you can keep adjusting it. Oh, love it. Well, Peter, great conversation again for our Leadership Growth Podcast today. To all of our listeners, please subscribe. We look forward to seeing you and having you listen in again in the future, but please subscribe and check out all of the great notes in the show notes, including the article we've referenced.

Peter, any final comments for our wonderful listeners from you? - Don't be afraid of that reflection in terms of take that moment to pause and think, hey, what is one thing I can do to do better? When you do that, it makes a big difference over the years. - And on that one, all the best, subscribe and we'll talk to you again in a few weeks. Bye everybody. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show.

And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit stewartleadership.com.