Creating Shared Meaning Through Conversation

Coming up on the Leadership Growth Podcast. If you want to identify your trigger points, think back across the last three to five days and identify moments when you were frustrated, moments when you might've even gotten really mad, and think back what happened in those moments of frustration that led to the frustration and even the anger. What happened? And how did you interpret it? There you will find trigger points.

And you do that a couple of times, and I would bet you're going to start to see themes of, "Oh yeah, that is what gets me." And it's then helpful to identify for you, and you can keep that in mind moving forward. So look for those moments when you feel frustrated, when you feel stressed, when you feel mad. And those are the times that your triggers often have just occurred. (upbeat music) Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Leadership Growth Podcast.

I'm Daniel Stewart, joined as always by my brother with my brother, Peter Stewart. And we're here to talk about some great timely topics, tools and ideas to help you grow your leadership ability. So as we always do, insight of the week.

(upbeat music) What's something Peter that you want to share that you've learned about? - Well, thanks, always good to be with you Daniel as we chat about leadership. Here's the insight. So the insight I heard comes all the way from across the pond in the Netherlands. I love to hear just fun stories about people and organizations thinking outside the box. So Jumbo Supermarket is a international chain headquartered in the Netherlands. And they implemented a slow checkout line a year or so ago.

A slow checkout line geared toward individuals who might be feeling lonely. And as they go through-- - Slow, what do you mean in contrast to all of the other checkout lines, which we want to go quickly? - Correct. - One is not supposed to go fast. - No, it's supposed to go slow. So this isn't the express lane of 10 items or less. You're in there on a mission trying to get out. Regular lane where you're trying to just get out. You do not have an appointment to get to.

You are here for social interaction. So they launched this slow check-in. It's the chatter checkout, as they call it. So people line up there and you'll be able to have a nice conversation with the checkout person as you buy your groceries. Then you go on. And they have found it to be so successful that they have now rolled it out to over 200 of their stores. (laughs) 200 and, and not only do they have the chatty checkout, they have also put in place the chatty corner.

And it's little couple tables off to the side of the store where patrons of the, of the store can sit down, have a little cup of coffee and talk with each other. As an effort to try and counter the loneliness epidemic they are finding in their country. So when I heard this news, I thought, wow, what a paradigm shift. Of let's do the churn. Let's get as many people through the store as possible.

And they really stopped to think about their clientele, who are their guests in their store and how did they meet their needs? So they thought, hey, let's give them some interaction. So that was a little bit of a heartwarming story but also made me think, what a wonderful, innovative idea. - Well, it's a lovely way of building community for sure.

And to go against so many of the efficiency productivity notions, which does not always consider of course, community, social, but to then use a different rationale, think of what kind of a customer experience is needed for a certain segment of the population. And how can we help support that? What a beautiful idea. - Yeah, I really loved it. And I thought, okay, looking at areas of this country or organizations that could adopt something like that. What if Publix in Florida started doing this?

Or they may have in Arizona and other places. But it just, it gave me a moment to pause and think, what are other ways organizations can try and meet a niche or a need in their customers that might not be met somewhere else and at the same time be creating some brand loyalty. - Yeah, it's challenging all of us to think, who are our clients? Who are our customers?

Are we truly reaching them to what matters for them when the profit perspective may not matter to them as much, but frankly, they become even more loyal and we're addressing deeper, helpful issues for them at the same time. - Correct, it's a win-win-win.

'Cause if you think about it, if those individuals are so enjoying the short little conversation they're having at the checkout, is this, has this now shifted from maybe a once a week activity to maybe every day they show up and they're buying their lunch or dinner for that day? Why? Because they get to go see some others. - Yeah, love it.

Great insight, great way of viewing and helping all of us kind of make sure that we're thinking of that people, planet, and profits, but broader than simply the productivity component. - Yeah. And the publicity they've gotten, here we are in the United States talking about a decision made by a supermarket change in the Netherlands that have no stores in the US that I'm aware of. Maybe they do. And they're getting a little publicity too. - Yep, yep, love it.

We'll have to put a link on the show notes so people can take a look at this organization. This is great. - I love that. So Daniel, let's take a little trip down memory lane. (upbeat music)

What is, what have you been thinking about this last week? - So I think it's time to talk about the podium. (laughing) - Are the listeners gonna be ready for this, Daniel? - Listeners, I hope you're ready. This is memory lane. It's entitled "The Podium." So picture this. So we have, I'm one of four brothers. I'm the oldest, then Peter, then two others, okay? And as we would have family meetings or every night we would have family night or every Monday night. - Every week, Monday night.

- Yeah, not every night, every Monday night. We would play games, we'd have a lesson, we'd talk together. That's just what we did as a family. And my dad had a podium built so that we were able to conduct family night and speak from the podium because he wanted to help raise sons who could, or daughters, if he had daughters, he wanted to raise kids who were confident speaking in front of others. And so we would always get up behind the podium and we'd welcome people and we would talk.

It sounds a little crazy. I'm telling you. And you, Peter, I think people may have just turned us off going, "You guys are nuts." But this is what happened. - And we loved it.

It was really an exciting thing because here we'd been and whether it was at church or other meetings, you watch people conduct and here there was a podium and we're learning how to welcome everybody, to give announcements and to share a quick little lesson or talk on a subject as you share a talent or something you learned at school. But we got very comfortable speaking out in that format. - Yes, that's a fact.

And I try to think of analogous situations for other families and I'm sure if another dad or mom in another family was really into engineering, they may come home and say, "Hey, let's work three equations together." I don't know, but that was the equivalent - That was the equivalent. - Here's the basis of coding. Every kid got a raspberry pie and they started learning coding at a very young age.

Or we're all gonna learn how to bake bread because dad's mom's, they're a baker and they run a bread industry or something. You pass on some of these insights to your children and we happen to grow up in a household where dad was, and he still is a fabulous speaker. Tried to give those. So many a fun memory. One, watching my siblings, my brothers, give talks from that podium, but then also being behind that podium and sharing that.

So kind of a fun memory is to think about what are the little things you can do to help people feel comfortable as they're building a skill? 'Cause it's all about practice. - That's a fact. Over and over and building that sense of confidence that you can stand in front of others and being able to then speak absolutely. So there you go, Peter, the podium has come. Memory lane. - That's a fun memory.

I'm not sure we quite got our Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours in before we flew the coop and left home, but we sure got several. Several lanes. - Yes, that's a fact. That's a fact. Okay, so can we stay on the theme of communication? Because that topic today-- - It's a great theme. - Fantastic theme.

So the topic today is how do you create shared meaning in conversation? Because each person is gonna approach a conversation. I have my meaning. This is what I'm trying to convey. This is what I want to get out of this. You have your meaning. This is what you're trying to get out of this. We need to somehow create a shared meaning for us to be on the same page, for us to be aligned, for us to move forward in helpful, productive ways.

Creating this shared space, this pool, however you want to then conceptualize it. This is what we do consistently as many times a day as we can so that we can then move things forward. And the challenges are coming when this meaning is not understood. Or we think we know what the other person is. Oh yeah, yeah, I got it. And you're like, actually, you know what, huh? And this assumption that it has taken place gets us into all sorts of trouble.

And so we have some ideas to be able to help accelerate this, help ensure it happens, help facilitate the exchange and the creation of shared meaning together. Peter, as you're hearing all this, what are you thinking? - Yeah, I mean, you're describing it really well. And I think we go back to what are some of the fundamental reasons why this is a challenge? And it comes back to one, as humans, we cannot read each other's minds. As much as we'd like to think we could or we try, we can't.

And there is no mechanism to communicate what is inside of our thoughts to somebody else without some form of communication. And we're not, what is it? Is it Avatar, the big blue creatures? And they have those tails in the back of their heads and they stick them in the back. And oh, immediately now you know the other creature's meaning. We can't do that. So it's figuring out what are ways in which we can understand that meaning better so that it can be a shared meaning.

- Yeah. And you're reminding me, going back to grad school days, studying aspects and theory of communication, there's a notion out there called solipsism. - So, okay, now wait, wait. Say that again for those that might not have had a graduate degree in communication. - So solipsism. So this idea that we can never truly understand each other. We can never truly understand each other's meaning. And I absolutely reject that. However, I can see where we can sometimes hover around that space.

- Yeah. - I'm a firm believer that we can do things to understand. We can reach a common understanding with each other. It does take work. And that's the goal. I mean, we're talking workplace stuff, but yes, this goes far beyond workplace. And so we can reject this notion that we can't. And in place, how do we keep then working toward it? So a couple of-- - I'm glad you rejected that though. - Yes. - Because if solipsism, am I saying that correctly? - Yeah, that's correct. Yes, yes.

- If solipsism was true, this would be a very short podcast episode. - Right. We're all screwed. We're done. - Yep, there is no hope. It doesn't matter. But we fight against solipsism. (laughing) We are anti-solipsism, where we actually do believe you can get closer and closer to that shared meaning, but it takes work. It takes effort. So one of the best things we can do as we talk about some of those tools, I think the first one to tee up would be the pause. The pause.

Not talking about polar bears. Yes, I had to go there. Inside joke, brother of ours, loves to say this favorite joke about pause in which this polar bear walks into a bar. And he says, "I would like to order a tall glass of milk." And the bartender looks at him and is like, "What? What was it? What's with the big pause?" And he holds up his paws and says, "I'm a polar bear. I have big paws." So yes, I had to go there in honor of our brother.

- Maybe in post-production, we can put some sort of snare drum. Thank you. Thank you for talking. - Back to the pause. - The pause now. - Now they can't. They think polar bear paws. But the pause is absolutely critical as we're trying to understand each other's meaning. That pause of one needs to shut up, stop talking, listen, think, and strive to understand what is actually being said and not what they think is being said. - Okay. So here's something kind of cool.

So I was with a client earlier in the week for two days. There are 30 top leaders. And one of the things that we talked about was communicating effectively. I mentioned the power of the pause to be able to implement that, to make sure others feel heard, that you are able to follow through. And ironically, they had just hired somebody who I had coached 15 years ago. And after the couple of days I was talking to him, he's like, "Oh, this is all such good stuff.

And I remember some of the things you taught me 15 years ago, especially around the pause."

And implementing the pause is one of the things that has helped me in my career so much, because it helped me stop talking and being able to pay attention to where other people are at, what's going on, and not just talking, but stopping my own mind so I can be present, I can be focused, and I can then assure and understand, repeat back, all of these things, managing our own emotions, which we'll get to in a second.

But implementing the pause is so key, especially when we are just going 100 miles an hour, back-to-back meetings, and every meeting I'm in, I'm gathering up more emails and team and Slack messages that I then need to pay attention to. Implementing the pause is one of the most effective ways of being able to then help facilitate the building of common meaning as you communicate with others. Are you pausing, Peter? - I was.

- You know, that doesn't work so well when people are just listening to us, okay? That is not as good on podcasts, but yes, keep going. - But I did that intentionally, because that was just a matter of a couple seconds. And how comfortable are you with silence with a pause? And it's a good thing for each of us to be aware of, is when is that level where we become uncomfortable with it? Because in order to pause, it's letting that thought happen. - Yeah. - It's letting that break.

And during the pause, what is happening? It's a reflection to recognize, wait a minute here, the way I'm seeing things may not be the only way to see things. And then you begin this process of hopefully stemming from a perspective of curiosity, in which you begin to seek to learn, to get exposed to, to understand what is their meaning.

Or as a CEO, I was working with quite a bit in terms of their coaching, would use this phrase, how do I understand their data lake, their data pool, that they're coming from? Because they've had experiences, they've been talking with people, they've learned things that have all contributed to their little data lake, that they've now drawn their conclusion from. I've done the same with my own data lake. How can I actually tap into that data lake to better understand where they're coming from?

- I'll add one more thing. The opposite of curiosity is judgment. And so whenever we're in this conversation, we have this choice to make, are we gonna be curious or are we gonna be judging? And there's a time and a place for both. As we're striving to initially understand, we want to have more curiosity than judgment. And that pause helps us manage our own reactions, which now let's talk about the second area. Second key area to focus on is managing our trigger points. Our own reactions.

Because these trigger points, and we all have it, whether we suddenly feel disrespected, we feel our identities being questioned, we feel our level of competence being questioned, we feel our ability to belong in a group being questioned.

Any of these, they can get our goat, they can get us, they can then begin to hijack us, which can then prevent us from being able to fully listen and understand not just the other person's perspective, but even being able to convey our own perspective in the process. Understanding our own trigger points is key, and then building practices to help minimize and manage, prevent, or if they are occurring, because we're all human, they happen.

Especially in stress and conflict, we can be triggered and that is not gonna help us show up as our best self. How can you recognize, how can we use the pause in those kind of situations so that we can show up as our best self more often? - Yeah, when you start to think about triggers, there are so many rabbit holes and tangents we could dive into in relation to that.

But the fundamental part of it is the more we are aware of what our triggers are, it decreases the likelihood that we become victimized by our own trigger. And when you are able to work through that and to recognize it and to see it, then okay, we have not hindered our own progress toward understanding the shared meaning. So common trigger points for people.

A few I've observed in the professional space, one, when somebody is questioning or it feels like our authority is being called into question. That can be a common one. Another one is when it feels like this is an area of expertise or we have had a lot of experience doing something and we think, oh, this is exactly how it's supposed to be done. And people don't wanna listen to whether they're saying something counter to what it is.

They're kind of related to one's called into question our authority, the other one's where we just, we have a lot of confidence in, well, it should be done this way. - I'll build on that. I find a lot of folks who are very analytical and have a scientific or analytical mindset. Sometimes what can be a trigger point for them is just as you mentioned, it's when their competence, their expertise is questioned. Whether actually being questioned or not.

But if there is a perceived ill against their expertise, that can shut people down or make them dig their heels in even more saying, no, I am right. I am right. And for many situations, I want somebody who's highly analytical and expert in their craft to be right. However, in working with other humans, that approach is not always the best. Especially as you're leading and managing others, because there's a whole bunch of gray that people need to get used to.

And then also if folks are, if some folks are more relationship oriented, I find folks who are often relationship oriented, what can often be a trigger for them is when they will take things personal. And if something is not going right, or it's that people aren't quite as pleased, they might instead of diving into a solution, they then say, oh, clearly it's against me personally, as a person, as a human. And then they start connecting it to their integrity.

And they start saying, oh, you don't trust me then. When in fact it has nothing to do with you as a person, it is the action, it is the task. However, it's hard to separate those two for certain folks. And we all can fall in either of these categories at times. The point is to recognize what are the trigger points for you to pay attention to that, and to actively build ways to help put in that pause, and to slow things down so that you can regain a sense of, what can I do next?

And let me get out of myself for a moment. - Getting out of ourselves can be a hard thing to do. Really can, and recognizing for the traumas, you shared several key categories of traumas that I think can impact, or triggers that can impact a lot. And I started to say trauma there, because that also can be a very much a source of trigger.

It's recognizing what are the emotional or professional traumas that you might have experienced, and are there situational triggers that cue those back, and bring those back, and being aware of those. Maybe it's the way a boss had interacted in the past. Maybe it was a situation with a colleague. Maybe it was how people had reacted to you in a certain work situation. But being aware of what those triggers might be. - Yeah. - And those can get deep. They can get quite personal.

And you dive into that to the level that you feel comfortable and you're able to do at this point, but even just taking that minute to pause, and reflect to say, okay, what are a few of those triggers, increases our awareness. So that we can manage, and we are not then controlled by the trigger. We begin to take steps toward overcoming those, so we can strive toward that shared meaning. - Yeah. And that gets at the next point. It's really around this active listening component.

Peter, as I say active listening, that can mean so many things to so many different people. What stands out in your mind when I say active listening? - Yeah, you're right. It can be used so often. Active listening fundamentally is when you are intentionally striving to understand what they are saying and listening with both your eyes and your ears. So you're watching their body language.

You're paying attention to the historical context, the history of the relationship that's going on, as well as the words that they are saying. So it's trying to just factor all of those things in. And it takes more brain power. It takes more focus. It's hard to multitask and be active listening at the same time. It's just not gonna happen. - Yeah. And I find certain behaviors of active listening actually help manage the triggers, or it can be a good go-to behavior when you are being triggered.

And one of those great behaviors is paraphrasing itself. Paraphrasing both the content of the other person and the emotion of the other person. And if you're able to successfully paraphrase, then you are successfully engaged in the conversation with the other person. If you have reached a point where you cannot successfully paraphrase, and you are not listening enough to that person, you are no longer really having a two-way dialogue. It is more, you just listen to me and do as I say.

And one, certain time and a place for that too. We're talking about, though, moments when you need to create a shared understanding where both are able to be engaged and understand to move forward. So this paraphrase, if I understand you correctly, it seems that you have mentioned this three different times. It looks like you are frustrated when we talk about this. Tell me more.

Any of these are ways to be able to then buy you time to then check in and help the other person feel heard, especially with a sincere desire to understand. This active listening, and it requires you to be present. Just as you're mentioning, Peter, it requires you to then put aside the other aspects of what you're thinking and doing and fully engage.

And there's really few other things that can help validate and help the other person feel as respected than when somebody is totally focused on you, what you're thinking and feeling and trying to say. Incredibly respectful and thus facilitating a better way of creating a shared meaning. My guess is as you reflect back on some of your favorite teammates at work, favorite boss you may have had, those people that you really connected with, you felt that they genuinely cared about you.

Odds are they displayed these behaviors of active listening. Just that was a part of who they were. That was why those relationships became so strong, because you had their undivided attention. And you could tell through the paraphrasing as you're highlighting, through the nodding, the eye contact, through the asking additional questions to help understand all of those. It just really dives deeper into it.

So it's interesting that as we're having a conversation, Daniel, we've talked about, overall, there's some communication basics. But I think what's been helpful as teaming this up is it's creating that shared meaning. It's not just how do you communicate, which I think is a term that is used a lot. And what does that really mean? We're diving a little deeper into how do you truly get to that shared meaning. And it's building on and addressing the habits that each person has.

So listeners, the challenge I have for you is to begin reflecting on what are your communication habits that you're actively using. Are they helping create shared meaning? And how do you then know that it's helping to create shared meaning? And the invitation and challenge is to take one of these or maybe more and adjust and reshape some of your communication practices, your communication habits. Put in the pause a little bit more often. Identify a trigger point and slow it down.

Or to actively listen, especially to people who you begin to just tune out, especially if they are people that you need to be successful in your work, in your home, in community, whoever that might be, how do you challenge yourself to listen a little bit longer, to phrase, understand, to pause, to manage your emotions. And so within all of this, pick one that you can then adopt and consider reshaping and challenging the way you are actively communicating to help foster more of a shared meaning.

- And it makes a difference not just in the workplace, but I would say in all the relationships you have. - Yeah. - 'Cause fundamentally we're humans trying to understand that shared meaning with each other. Whether it's in the classroom, whether it's in a church room, whether it's in a work room, it doesn't matter. They help. So picking one, great advice. So Daniel, as we wrap this up with some lightning round.

(upbeat music) Let's focus on triggers for this one. - Sure. - What is one bit of advice you would give to somebody who's having a hard time identifying what their triggers might be? - If you want to identify your trigger points, think back across the last three to five days and identify moments when you were frustrated. Moments when you might've even gotten really mad. And think back what happened in those moments of frustration that led to the frustration and even the anger.

What happened and how did you interpret it? There you will find trigger points. And you do that a couple of times and I would bet you're gonna start to see themes of, oh yeah, that is what gets me. And it's then helpful to identify for you and you can keep that in mind moving forward. So look for those moments when you feel frustrated, when you feel stressed, when you feel mad. And those are the times that your triggers often have just occurred. Okay. - Good suggestion.

- Lightning round for you, Peter. - Okay. - All of these efforts to be able to then create shared meaning, what's the one big takeaway that you would leave for people? If they want to create a truly shared meaning, what is the one thing that you would suggest they emphasize and do? - The most important thing to do if you're truly trying to obtain that shared meaning is to lead with curiosity. We've talked about it earlier.

It is so important to be open to understanding the perspective that they bring. The opposite of curiosity is judgment. In the search for the shared meaning, judgment, it gets in the way. It is a hindrance toward that understanding. And continue to ask questions, not out of trying to put them on the defensive. But it's a help me understand or I want to see the way you're seeing this. Bring me into your world. Help me see your thought process.

All of those things they not only demonstrate a genuine curiosity, But so much you then have the opportunity to learn. So there's a humility that also must. accompany that curiosity. Thanks, Peter. - That's well said. Well, it's always fun. Thanks for another great session. And to all of our listeners, thanks for joining us on this Leadership Growth Podcast. Hope these ideas and tools will help elevate your ability to showcase your best self as a leader every day.

Be sure to subscribe in the future and take a look at past and future episodes. All the best, take care everyone. If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend or colleague, or better yet, leave a review to help other listeners find our show. And remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For more great content or to learn about how Stewart Leadership can help you grow your ability to lead effectively, please visit strewleadership.com.