473: Being Yourself in a Job Interview (w/Sadie Jones)

Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast. Today, we're excited to have ex-BigLaw recruiter Sadie Jones here with us to talk about being yourself in an interview. Your Law School Toolbox host today is Alison Monahan, and typically, I'm with Lee Burgess. We're here to demystify the law school and early legal career experience, so that you'll be the best law student and lawyer you can be.

Thanks for having me back.

Oh, my pleasure. Let's jump right in here. We often see students struggling with feeling like they need to be somebody else. What they see is the perfect candidate in legal job interviews. Why do you think this happens?

I think this is just human nature. You want to get the job, so you want to be the person you think they want you to be. I think the problem with that is that you don't really know who they want you to be. So, trying to bend over backwards to be this student that you picture they want to hire, is just generally not going to work out for you. But I think it's just completely normal to try to figure out what they want and check all the boxes.

I think everybody thinks, "Oh, I have to be this or I have to be that", and sometimes it's things that are under your control, and sometimes it's things that are totally out of your control. So, I do think this can become a problem. It is funny, though, you really don't know what people are looking for. I remember when I was interviewing for clerkships, it turns out that the judge who actually hired me was really into architecture, and I had a master's in architecture.

I think this happens so much of the time. And sometimes they're looking for something that they can't even define, that they'll just get out of the conversation. And I would say I think the majority of this is actually out of your control. So, trying to control it and hold it so tight, and again, check all these boxes - I just think it always backfires if that is your approach to it, because I totally agree, you don't know what they're looking for.

Yeah, I think people can sense if you're not being authentic and if you're trying to mold yourself into this idea of, "Oh, I have to be so serious and so this and so that", when maybe this person is actually like super chill and is looking for somebody else that can just be chill and get the work done, but have fun at the same time. What are some places you see this kind of playing out specifically?

I think that definitely people are sometimes trying to make up for something. So, they've decided that they're not at a good enough school, or their grades aren't good enough, or they're not on Law Review, and they picture that these are all the things that this person's looking for. So, somehow they try to have their personality make up for that.

also very true. People think, "Oh, I have to be like super aggressive" and this and that. And yeah, there are people out there who are like that, but lawyers span a wide variety. And there are also people who would be repelled by somebody coming in an interview and being like, "I'm so aggressive", blah, blah, blah.

I find that lawyers are often non-confrontational and introverts, which doesn't fit with this idea of a courtroom lawyer. But I think that the majority of lawyers fit that personality type, actually.

It is true. Most people, including myself, I know who are litigators, are actually like, "We don't really like conflict, it's just what we do. I don't want to have conflict with the people that are on my team, on my side."

I think in an interview that comes across as like being the gunner, and being the obnoxious person, if that's your approach. And that may not be you at all, but that is what you've decided that you think they're looking for, and so you're acting that way in an interview.

Yeah, I think that's the thing. It's like, if that is your personality and you are the gunner, then alright, go for it. And again, that person probably shouldn't try to tone themselves down that much and be agreeable. If you're not agreeable, well, you're not agreeable. Somebody's going to want that.

I agree, because remember, this is somewhere you're hopefully going to work for a while. So, you do want to find the right fit. It's not just about a job, any job, most of the time.

Right. I mean, ideally it should be something you can keep for at least a few years without going completely crazy. Finding a job every year is really hard and time-consuming. So yeah, I think it's about finding a fit here. And I totally get people, particularly if they're coming in without a whole lot of job experience, may have some imposter syndrome - super common, and may be overcompensating for certain things. And I think you're right, it is that insecurity.

Well, practice is my number one piece of advice. And that might mean practicing with another person. That might mean recording yourself - practicing to yourself and listening to it. And we've talked about this before, that can be very painful and difficult to do, but I have never talked to anyone who didn't get something out of doing that. It is important to see how it comes across. I would actually also talk to people, practice with people who aren't lawyers, to see how it sounds.

Right. You want the perfect answer to every question. There is no perfect answer. It's just going to sound scripted, and you're going to get thrown off if somebody interrupts you and says, "Okay, great, but what about..." and then you're like, "Oh, I don't have the perfect answer for that. Now I'm paralyzed."

And I think actually that's at the heart of all of this, is this idea of the perfect answer, the perfect student, the "what you're looking for". And there really isn't. I actually think most of this is about how you answer the question. I think that there could be 10 different answers to the same question and someone could want to hire every one of those people, depending on how they answered it.

Yeah, exactly. Like, "Tell me about a time when..." And you're like, "I'll tell you about a time that's sort of like that." Okay, that's good enough.

The other thing to remember, my experience is, people want you to do well. I think that sometimes students think that this is some kind of test and they're trying to trip you up and they're trying to see if they can shake you. I feel like most people do not want an interview to go poorly. And they want you to do well and they don't want it to be uncomfortable. For some reason, students think this is supposed to be hard or supposed to be bad.

No. I mean, occasionally you'll run into that person who's just like a total pill and wants to make everybody struggle. I mean, anytime I did an interview, I was just like, "Oh, okay, great. This is 30 minutes out of my day that I get to probably bill, and all I have to do is talk to this person and get to know them and be friendly and answer their questions. This is easy for me. Don't make it hard."

And I bet if you feel like the student's uncomfortable, you want to fix that. You don't want them to be uncomfortable.

Yeah. I'm an empathetic person, I'm trying to make you feel at home. I'm not sure everyone interviews this way, but probably they do, because we're not trained usually to interview. So you're giving people softball questions.

Yes.

"What do you like about law school? What's your favorite class?" I'm not trying to trip people up. I'm just trying to make a conversation. "Oh, I see on here that you're interested in bowling. Tell me more about that."

Well, that's the other thing - I think students think it all has to have to do with law school and have to be academic, and all of this. And the reality is, sometimes you're just going to have a conversation. You're going to bond over architecture or baseball or something else. So, I think that's completely fine. Sometimes students will try to keep getting back on topic or something. And that isn't what this needs to be. This isn't a test.

Right. Literally, the last thing I usually wanted to talk about was law or law school. I mean, I was doing that 10 to 12 hours a day. I was happy to talk to them about their other interests, but yeah, occasionally you get that person's like, "Oh, let me tell you about my Law Review note." I was like, "I was actually having a really interesting conversation about what you were baking last week, but okay, cool. We can talk about your Law Review note if you really want to bore me with that."

That's the thing, I feel like that's a turn off. It's like, "Oh, okay, I understand what this student's trying to do."

Yeah. It's also just not recognizing the flow of the conversation. The person who's interviewing you, if they're interested in a certain thing, you should talk about that thing. That's just good interviewing.

Exactly. Really, you want to make a connection as a human being to this other human being, because that is going to, in the end, make them say, "Oh, I would want to work with this person." Right. " Alison Monahan: This person was pleasant. I enjoyed the conversation. Done." That's all we're looking for. Because there're probably 20 other law students that have very similar background to you, right? But, "Oh, I liked this person. I enjoyed the conversation." That's it. It's not that complicated.

It's literally like, they were pleasant. They didn't say or do anything that made me be like, "I don't think I want to work with them 12 hours a day or more."

Exactly. And I feel like the interviewer can really tell if you had decided, "This is my persona. These are all the points I want to make", and try to keep getting them back in, even if it doesn't go with the flow of the conversation. And I just find that so awkward, even though I think some students think, "Oh, but I needed to say all this in the interview." No, you didn't. You needed to just make a good impression.

Right. You need to talk about whatever they were asking you about and not push your agenda on the person who's actually in charge.

Exactly. The other thing that I think can be an issue in this whole area is when students try to figure out the background of the interviewer and fit everything into what that person practices, especially if it's something you're not interested in.

Yeah. You don't need to pretend like, "Oh, I haven't taken a Tax class, but I'm definitely going to. I'm really interested in this." No, you're not. You're a 3L.

Right. And I get why people do this, because they think, "Oh, they'll like me more if I like what they like", but that's just not how it is.

And oftentimes you know better than I do on this - but my understanding with interviews is they're also trying to get a variety of people. So you want to give somebody a younger person, a kind of mid person, maybe a partner. You want to have that range. And people are busy, you may not be able to get your exact desired practice area in all of those, but they're trying to mix it up so that you get more of a sense of the firm as well.

Exactly. And I think you can ask questions about their practice area, without having any interest in doing it, because a firm is going to have interaction with practice areas that have nothing to do with what you do. So, I think it's important to be curious. But just don't pretend with every single person, because then also it's going to look weird on the review, when you said you wanted to do six different things. They will figure that out, because it's all going to be printed together.

No Right. No, I think the tax one is great, because that's pretty specific. So that's a great example, where if I'm in an interview with a tax attorney and I knew nothing about tax, I might say something like, "Oh, that's really interesting. What does an average day as a tax attorney look like for you? Is that different from a litigator?" And they'll be like, "Yes, here's what I do."

Totally. Just be interested.

Exactly. I probably wouldn't be like, "I know nothing about tax. Tell me everything." I think there's a line, but obviously, they're an attorney, you can assume they do something legal-related. But I would actually find that a pretty interesting conversation, like, "How is your day different than somebody else who works here, given that you do this more specific area?"

And I bet that they don't have that many people asking about tax. It sounds boring to a lot of people, so I feel like they would appreciate that.

Yeah, apparently it's actually a highly stressful area of practice, as I found out from friends who did that. Alright, let's talk about a few specific areas where this might play out. And you've alluded to some of these, but let's dive in a little. What if you're at a lower-ranked school, but you've done really well there? Do you need to really sell yourself a lot to make up for the school? No. Next question.

Basically, I think it comes down to what I said about these insecurities, and I totally get it. But the fact is, that stuff is on your resume. They have seen it. They, hopefully, have looked. But I feel like that's all on there. If they ask you a question where that's a relevant answer, like, "How did you pick this school?", it might be relevant to say, "They gave me a full ride."

Totally legit.

Yeah, and I think they appreciate that. They understand that that's how people make decisions, because I think that happens a lot for people who do really well at a lower- ranked school. There's usually a reason. So, I just think that you don't want it to be a really big deal. And you also don't want it to sound like you're badmouthing your school.

Yeah, I think you want to have something positive to say, and it might be that, "You know, I did really well my first year, as you can see from my transcript. And I considered my options and thought maybe I would transfer. But then I realized I really enjoyed this school, and I had all these benefits, X, Y, Z, and I have a lot of people supporting me. And I thought it was going to be a really great experience, so here I am."

Exactly. And the fact is they're interviewing you, so you've gotten that

Right. I was going to say, yeah, you're interviewing for the same job as somebody at a different school. So I think by the time you get to the interview, these things should not be a huge issue. You are sitting in the same chair as somebody who went to Harvard, basically.

Also, I will say different interviewers will feel really differently about this, or different people. There are people who really like the top students at a lower-ranked school. There are people who feel like the school is the most important. So even if you're midway through the class, it's okay, it's a higher-ranked school. So I think it just depends who you're talking to, and there's no way you can know that going in. So your approach needs to be the same, basically. Yeah,

exactly. And there's good data on this, that people who do well at lower- ranked schools actually tend to succeed more in law firms than people from top schools. But again, you don't have to point that out.

It's just there. This is the stuff that's out of your control. Yeah.

And also, people know this. Everybody's read the same study.

Exactly. So yeah,

you don't have to sell yourself. You're already there, you belong there. Just go with it. Alright, what if you are at a great school, but you have a few low grades? Maybe 1L didn't go so well. Do you need to explain these? You only need to explain this if you are asked.

So, do not bring it up. I don't know why everyone wants to bring it up. This is so common. Now, you should prepare an answer, but you do not give that answer unless you are directly asked, and the answer should be short.

Yeah, the answer should be, "Yeah, first semester was definitely challenging, but I learned a lot, I turned it around, and here we are."

Yeah, have some kind of story. Hopefully there was an upward trajectory, something I use a lot. Maybe there wasn't, but you come up with some kind of way that you are selling this as a positive. And do not go into details about what happened to cause that grade. Do not badmouth the professor, do not go into details about a surgery. There are like a million personal issues that should not be discussed in an interview. You just need to keep it simple and vague.

Yeah, even if it's something like, "Oh yeah, I had some really unfortunate personal stuff come up right before that test, and it is what it is, but I don't think it's something that's going to recur."

I also think that it's actually pretty rare for someone to directly ask. I know it happens, but I think more often than not, they see it, they don't feel like having a conversation about it's going to add much to it, unless it's a really big outlier, which happens occasionally. But I would just say prepare for it, but most likely you're not even going to be asked, so just go in with the same plan you would go into if you didn't have that grade.

Yeah. I don't think a lot of the time I even had a transcript in front of me. I had a resume, but I mean, maybe I had a transcript. I don't recall ever looking at them, to be honest.

Well, a lot of interviewers don't like to have the transcript first before they talk to the person, then they'll look after. And they might feel like, "Oh no, I really like this person and there's no way I could call them back." Or they might say, "It's on the bubble, I really like this person, I'm going to make a case for them." But I think that generally interviewers want to get to know you as a person and not as a grade.

Right, because again, if you're sitting in the callback interview, you've passed some sort of test of, okay, your grade is sufficient. Maybe it's not amazing, maybe you're not top of the group that we're looking at, but it is sufficient to be hired here, because otherwise they're probably not going to go through an entire callback round, because that takes time. It's expensive.

I think the only time grades come up again in a callback is if you did very borderline or they're comparing you to somebody else, where you are totally equal and they can say they had a much higher GPA. Now, again, this is completely out of your control. There's nothing you could have done different. I feel like you treat the interview the same, and if your grades are going to end up being the issue, there is nothing you could have done to change them at that point.

And honestly, most people, like we said, don't care. You might encounter somebody who wants to be a jerk about it, but they're going to be a jerk about something. They're going to find something else to be a jerk about, basically.

I agree.

Alright. What if you're not a typical hire for this organization? You're not somebody that meets a specific mold, whatever that is, or whatever you think that is. And some of these may be immutable characteristic type things that you can't change. How should people handle that?

So I actually think it's what you said - what you think it is, because very rarely are you going to know exactly what they're looking for, even if you know who they've hired in the past, right? So my approach is still to be as true to yourself as you can in the interview, because they probably brought you back because they were interested in you.

The reality is, most of these things we're talking about, you can't actually change. It's like your background is what it is. Your grades are what they are, your skin color is what it is, your gender or whatever is what it is. So, if you are a woman going in a firm where you're like, "Oh, they're 80% men", first off, do you think you might actually want to work there? Maybe not. They know who you are, you're in the interview.

I think people struggle with that the most when it's a place they thought they really wanted, or everyone's been talking about how great it is. I think that is a situation that people struggle with, because they ask themselves, "Why didn't it seem like a fit for me when it's supposed to be the best?" I really think it's important to say, "What will work for me?" and not what I've heard other people say or what I've read.

I think that's so true. And I definitely had that situation when I was a summer. And even looking back, it was actually clear in some of the questions I was getting in the interview process that this was probably not going to be a great fit, mostly because I was interested in litigation, this was a firm that was more known for their corporate side, but they did litigation.

See, I think that's interesting. That's like the opposite of what we're talking about, where the employer is trying to be something that they're not. That happens all the time also.

Absolutely.

And that's something to be on the lookout for, so that's something to think about also when you're interviewing. Does it seem like they're being genuine? Because I think you can really get a sense for it. And I know as a recruiter, there are people who are just very rah-rah, cheerleaders. I try to be as honest as I can in terms of, "This is what it's like here", because you want people to want to work there and to fit in and to think that it's a good place.

Yeah, I just learned from that. And I my first summer had worked at a place that was super litigation-focused, and just in terms of what books were in the library and really basic things like that, was a totally different vibe. But yeah, just understanding that people will say all kinds of things, because that's the point here, is, they feel the same way.

It's like places that really, really market themselves as a, quote unquote, "lifestyle firm", right? That's a red flag.

Sorry.

No, not like that. But you can ask solid questions: "Oh, what is your billable hours requirement?" And then you get an idea of how hard people are working. "What's the average?" That kind of thing. So there are questions you can ask that aren't just what their marketing stuff

says. Although, I will say I would probably wait until I had the offer to ask that.

Oh didn't mean in the

interview. After the interview, you can ask all these questions. Or

pro bono hours, or more details on that. But yeah, those are questions to definitely ask after, but you can figure out from some of that whether it's going to be a fit with what you're looking for, your values.

Yeah. Some of those you can definitely get objective data on. What are the practice areas they practice? How many billable hours do they require? What are their survey grades that their people gave them? There's actually a lot of information out there. Alright, before we wrap up, there is one thing. So, if you have a lot of interest or skills, or maybe you have a weird academic or job background, is it okay to emphasize the more relevant ones?

Well, there definitely won't be time to talk about every single thing. So, I think you have to figure out what you think are the most important and relevant. I do think it has to be somewhat relevant to skills that maybe you would have as a lawyer. But I think that there are things that might not off the top of your head seem relevant.

profession. That's funny. That was the exact same example I was going to give. Sorry. No, it's just funny. We're all thinking along the same lines here. I really do think people should have something interesting on their "Interests" line. Like, I had a friend in law school who put cheese, and everyone's like, "Cheese?" She's like, "Literally, every single interview, I spend at least 20 minutes talking about cheese.

Yep. And I always tell people to be as specific as possible, but maybe she actually wanted that to be general on purpose, to be like, "I like all cheese of

any sort." No, she had done cheese classes. She could talk about cheese for hours.

And that's obviously the thing, you can tell from an "Interests" section which is the thing that most people are going to pick out of it, that's like the weirder thing or something like that. I think that is what makes you a human in this interview, is your interests and your personality.

Well, and the specifics. So, if somebody has "reading" as one of their interests, that's not very interesting. If they tell me "reading historical fiction", now, even if I have no interest in historical fiction, I can talk to them about their interest in historical fiction. And that is going to let us kill several minutes of that interview with something that is more interesting than talking about your favorite law school class.

Absolutely. So, that is why everyone needs to have an "Interests" section on their resume also.

Right. And to have them specific enough that you can actually start a conversation about them: "Oh, that's interesting, historical fiction. What have you been reading lately?"

You don't want to have "travel". I find that particularly boring. You pick an area of the world you've most traveled, or "I have been to a hundred countries." You need something that they can dive into.

Right, like, "Oh, I see that you've been to India. That sounds interesting. Tell me more about that." Not, "Oh, I see you like to travel. Okay. Where do you like to go?"

Reading, cooking, travel. Yeah.

Yeah, or like the person who put "cooking" and I was like, "Oh, you like baking? What are you into baking?" And he's like, "What?" I'm like, "You put it on your resume." He's like, "It would be more accurate to say I watch baking shows." I'm like, "Then you should put that on there, because this has now gone downhill fast."

Well, also that's another example of, I think sometimes people put things on their "Interests" section, again, trying to have a certain image or convey a certain person that you're not. And that will bite you somewhere in the interview when they ask you about it.

Yeah. It's like, just be yourself. You certainly have some interests outside of law, I hope.

And it doesn't have to be a hobby. I think that's the other thing - a lot of people are like, "I don't have a hobby." But then when you talk to them about what they do in their free time, it's like you do have things that you do in your free time. They're just not like pottery or tennis or something. It's something a little bit different.

Yeah. Alright. So basically, be yourself on your resume, put something interesting on there to talk about, and then go into the interview and just be that person. Alright, that was my final thought. Any final thoughts you want to share here?

I would say that you want to be as genuine as you can at the center, but my caveat to all of this is, you're not just talking to your friend, so you have to have some kind of filter on this "Be genuine." For example, they ask you about a time you failed and what happened. It's how you're phrasing it, right? You're not picking something that really makes you look terrible, and you're showing how you turned it around in the end.

I agree with that. Yeah, you probably don't want to be talking about the time you got thrown in jail because of whatever. It's like, okay, maybe that's really key to the story and you need to talk about it, but if you don't need to talk about it, maybe leave that one out.

Exactly. And this is where I would test some of these stories on other people.

Yeah, because you're going to get the like, "Hmm, I don't think that's something you probably want to bring up if you can avoid it."

Exactly. Alright,

with that, we are out of time. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks

for having me back.

Oh, my pleasure. For more career help and the opportunity to work one-on- one with us, you can check out CareerDicta.com. If you enjoyed this episode of the Law School Toolbox podcast, please take a second to leave a review and rating on your favorite listening app. We'd really appreciate it. And be sure to subscribe so you don't miss anything. If you have any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to reach out to Lee or Alison at lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.