Lee Burgess (2): Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast. Today we are talking with two special guests about tips for neurodivergent law students. Your Law School Toolbox hosts are Alison Monahan and Lee Burgess, that's me. We're here to demystify the law school and early legal career experience, so you'll be the best law student and lawyer you can be. We're the co-creators of the Law School Toolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the career-related website CareerDicta.
Alison also runs The Girl's Guide to Law School. If you enjoy the show, please leave a review or rating on your favorite listening app. And if you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out to us. You can reach us via the contact form on LawSchoolToolbox.com, and we'd love to hear from you. And with that, let's get started. I want to take a second and thank Themis Bar Review for sponsoring this episode. Everyone's journey to finishing law school and becoming a licensed attorney is unique.
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Any Themis Bar Review course, whether you're sitting in 2025, 2026, or 2027 for just $1,695, using code LAWSCHOOLTB1200 at checkout. That's LAWSCHOOLTB1200, now valid through November 15th. Don't wait, set yourself up for success! Welcome back. We are excited to have two special guests today talking about tips for neurodivergent students in law school.
Our first guest is Heather Varanini, Director of Academic Achievement and Adjunct Professor at Golden Gate University School of Law in San Francisco. Our second guest is Rebecca Petrilli, who is the Themis Sales Director for the Midwest and the Director of Marketing and Content Strategy. So, thank you both for joining me on this late summer day to talk about this really important topic and something that Alison and I are very passionate about. Professor Heather Varanini: Thank you for having us.
Thanks
so much.
Alright, Heather, why don't we start with you? Could you introduce yourself and share why this topic is important to you? Professor Heather Varanini: Sure. I have been working in this space for almost a decade now, and my whole goal is to help students achieve their goals. So, what does that mean exactly? I work with students in all years of law school to help gain the skills that they need to be successful while they're in law school, and to study for and to successfully pass the bar exam.
Why this particular topic about neurodivergent student success is important to me? The answer is really twofold. One of which is that there're two things I think are really important for law school classrooms, which is that they have to be safe and they have to be accessible to our students, and that has to happen for all students.
I say "safe" because a lot of times what we've learned from neuroscience is that when students are really flooded with fear and anxiety, they can't show up as their best self. It's very hard, and you can't input information and learn effectively when that's the case. And also what I mean by "accessible" is that the class can't have additional barriers for students, especially for those students who have a disability or who may identify as neurodivergent.
And by "additional barriers", I do mean things like laptop bans. I'm always happy to get into this a little bit more later. So, I do believe that our classrooms have to be those things for our students for them to be successful. And second of all, I have a personal connection in the sense that I was diagnosed with test anxiety very late. I was early on in college. My grades really went from Cs and Ds to As and Bs from getting treatment, and that really made a huge, huge, huge difference.
So, it's both personal, but also I want to make sure that I could help set my students up for success. Thank you for sharing that personal story, because I know that a lot of times students are on the fence about getting diagnosed for various things and don't know if it will make a difference. So I always appreciate highlighting stories where engaging with our challenges and getting more information can really empower us to perform at our best, because that's what we all want to do, right?
We just want to perform at our best. Yeah. Absolutely. Alright, Rebecca. What about you? Can you share a little bit about yourself and what interests you in this topic specifically?
Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm a sales director for Themis, as you said, and I work with students while they're studying for the bar exam. So I work with them while they're in law school to get them access to our free resources. But then while they're going through the process, the whole, however long they spend studying, I'm one of the people that they're in contact with helping them figure out a study plan, all that.
So, it is something I've witnessed firsthand, where students struggle to find the right way to study for their needs and the right way to access this massive volume of information that they're experiencing when they're studying for the bar. And my personal connection is that I was extremely late diagnosed ADHD. I got a diagnosis about six months ago. So I went through law school, I went through undergrad, I went through the bar exam without any medication, accommodations, anything like that.
And it was a real struggle. I came to law school and I realized I don't actually know how to study. I was just good at memorizing things quickly, but when it comes to prepping for law school exams and trying to condense a semester's worth of material into something that I can know and work with in a three-hour test block - that was a huge, huge, huge challenge for me. And so, now in this role, my goal is to help students wherever I can.
If they already know that they're neurodivergent or they suspect that they're neurodivergent or whatever it may be, create a safe space, like Heather said, to make sure that they are able to access the resources that are going to be the most beneficial to them, because most students are very capable of getting through this material if they're able to do it in a way that their brains understand.
Thank you for sharing that story. We did another podcast that we will link to in the show notes with some students who are engaged in student-level organizations to advocate for students on campus, and I'm rusty on my stats, but it was a huge portion of students in their 20s, which I think is a large majority of the law student population, got diagnoses around being neurodivergent in their 20s, like mid to late 20s.
And I think that so often there is not that awareness that you may have been high functioning enough to just be able to work with these individual challenges or work around the way your brain works, or you might acknowledge it, but be able to just find coping mechanisms. I think this increased awareness of, this stuff can pop up in your 20s in this pressure cooker of law school.
And if you're feeling like something else may be going on, if you're feeling like you're struggling, if a professor comes to you and makes a suggestion that maybe you should investigate this, that it's not out of left field. This is pretty typical, that you get some of these diagnoses later in life. Professor Heather Varanini: Yeah, and what I'll mention too is what I see is that it's more of what I see is specifically women receiving late diagnoses, especially around ADHD.
And based on the research I've done, that has a lot to do with the way in which we understand ADHD right now. A lot of those markers were created around young boys and men. And so, when they're the standard and then symptoms present different in women, it's really hard to look at the two and say they're the same. Of course, a lot of women are going to be under or misdiagnosed. We also know that there's a lot of under and misdiagnosis around people of color as well, for various other factors.
So, part of the reason that we are talking about this has, I think, exactly to do with that. And to your point, Lee, students get away with masking, in terms of being able to, like you were saying, really having coping mechanisms that work, and law school really is that place where the coping mechanisms may not be sufficient any longer, because of the high stress, the high volume of work, and that sort of thing.
There is something really interesting about what you just said, Heather, in that the thing about symptoms showing up differently, because once I got my ADHD diagnosis, I realized that if you look at how symptoms present in women, I am textbook, but none of the textbooks are there. And the other thing is that so much of the presentation of symptoms in women are internal. That is, it is loudness inside of our heads, versus the external hyperactivity that you often see in young boys.
I am one of many of my personal friends, law school friends, other friends, who got diagnosed in their late 20s, early 30s and are now navigating this world.
So, part of why I do this too is to help make sure that if you even have an inkling that you have something going on that might need a little bit of extra support, seek out that help sooner rather than later, because I look back at my law school experience and I know now with my medication and just even having a label for it and saying, "Oh, this is what that is and I can learn to work with it better", instead of scrabbling around for coping mechanisms, my whole law school
experience would have been different. My studying for the bar exam experience would have been different. So, we don't want to spend too much time talking about personal stories, but I just want to advocate for anybody who's feeling uncomfortable or there's something they don't know how to label. Please seek out that help, because it's made a world of difference for me and other people that I know.
And to really listen to that feedback. My business partner and I talk to, I couldn't even total them, how many law students and bar takers, many of whom are struggling. Those are the people who call me. Most people don't call me because they feel like they're knocking it out of the park. They usually call me because they are worried, right?
And I am not a psychiatrist, I am not any sort of mental health expert, but it has gotten to the point where five minutes into the conversation, I will often be able to say, "Do you have any diagnoses for anything that I should know about?" Because I think that when you talk to a lot of folks, especially about something like school, it's all the same kind of content. You start to see these themes.
And I think that it can be really humbling for a student to maybe have a professor or, Heather, someone in your role, come to them and say, "Hey, let's start to connect some of the dots." And then I think people immediately want to get defensive and think that means they're not going to be successful. And I think it's just flipping the script.
If somebody - a professor - says, "I read your exam, and it's looking that there could be some struggles, possibly with attention deficit, or it's not linear thinking, or you're having time management issues" - I think that there is a growth mindset that's necessary to be able to take that feedback and say, "Do I need to get more information to make sure that I'm not masking?" instead of, "Oh, that is going to be a black mark on my record, or I'm not going to be a great lawyer."
I know so many lawyers who are fantastic lawyers, who are neurodivergent. That is not something folks need to worry about. And I just recorded another podcast with someone on my team who used to be a bar grader, where we also confirmed that bar graders have no idea if you get accommodations for anything. So, this really is just about everyone investing in you and you investing in yourself, getting as much information as possible and leveling the playing field if you need extra support.
And that is not anything to feel bad about or worry that's going to reflect badly. In fact, I actually think advocating for yourself and getting the support that you need is something that should be championed, and we have to change that script, I think, for law students.
Yeah, there's so much shame around it. Even when I got my diagnosis, I felt this immense weight off of me that I didn't even know I was carrying around. And we need to have these conversations, and it needs to be your language around flipping the script, right? We need to change how we view neurodivergence in general, because it is not a weakness.
It is just a different way of thinking about the world, it's a different way of interacting with material, with feedback - visual, audio, whatever it may be. And we need systems in place that are set up to support people rather than othering them. And so, I think it doesn't just fall on the student. Of course, right where we are right now, yes, the student needs to seek out the diagnosis and be the advocate.
But we as people who work in this industry, and professors, other academic support professionals, etcetera, need to be advocating for systems within the legal profession and within law schools to make sure that these students don't start out at a disadvantage.
Professor Heather Varanini: And I'll add here that part of the issue - and I do have to say this out loud - which is a part of the issue is that this is stigmatized, whether it's a disability or otherwise in our profession, and that really does start at the top, and I'll explain why I say this. Specifically because two things. I think one is that there are still questions on moral character and fitness around the country that do include mental health questions, right?
And we do know that neurodivergence includes some mental health conditions. So, there really is a very real stigma there. There are still people in our profession also, and I've worked with some of them, who do say people who are disabled shouldn't be in this profession. So, part of the issue here is that we are really bumping up against this stuff. I bump up against it in my work as well. And our students feel that.
I hear from my students who say, "This profession was not built with me in mind. Law school was not built with me in mind." And that's true. We know that to be true. Listen, law school was not built with the idea that there would even be women in law school. Or even women in the profession.
So I say all that to say and to really recognize if anyone's listening and saying, "Yes, that's good, but..." and to validate what it is that you're feeling if you are having any of those feelings of, "But I feel so strongly." And to Lee and Rebecca's point, absolutely. And part of it is having these conversations and really advocating strongly. So one of the things I don't ever do is I never suggest to my students that they get a diagnosis.
What I do instead is I ask them how they're feeling, how they're working, and we work on things together. And a lot of times I let that come from them, if that's something that they're interested in. And I always encourage them, like Lee was saying, to advocate for themselves. But my goal is to connect them with resources. So I say, "Listen, if you're interested in accommodations, why don't you have a conversation with the disability services office?
It doesn't mean that you have to have the accommodation. It means you could have the conversation and she can educate you about what that might look like. And maybe I can help you get connected to more resources so we can start that conversation." And so that they can feel more empowered, because I think sometimes the students I work with, a lot of times they feel a lot of pressure and they already feel like there are so many barriers erected for them in law school.
And so, I don't want them to feel like there's another one coming from me, that I'm stigmatizing them in some other way. And this is so critical for people in the law school space, is to really, again, create a space that students are feeling safe in your classroom, so that they know that a classroom is a place, and like Rebecca was saying, you're a safe place where they can have conversations with you, they can be open, and that you will help them.
Because if their goal, again, is to be successful in school, you can help them do that, like Rebecca was saying also. So, what I do with my students is when they're saying, "I'm having challenges around time or time management" - let's talk about some of the things that you're really good at, and then let's talk about how you can use those skills to connect with how you can be more successful in law school. So for example, let's say you can't sit for three hours.
That's really tough, a lot of people can't. Let's talk about some of the things you are good at and how we can connect those two things so you can accomplish your goal of studying for, let's say, Civil Procedure.
So again, I think our role in these particular situations is being the person that can be on the outside and looking in to say, "You might feel like this is something that's a detriment, but we're going to help you see this and work on it so that it can be something that's really a benefit to you."
I think that's also a great point, about learning by engaging in disability services, because one of the things that I was very ignorant about when I started doing this work was the breadth of possible accommodations that are available to students. I was a note-taker in law school, so I took notes that were shared with students, right?
So I knew that that existed, but as I've gone on in this work and worked with students who have come with physical accommodations needs, neurodivergent accommodations needs, medical needs, breastfeeding needs, pregnancy needs. We have all of these possible needs and these disability services offices.
Or if you're studying for the bar, going to whoever's managing accommodations for the bar and just educating yourself, because you may not even know what is available for you that would make a big difference. I am still surprised at sometimes what will be available for a student, and then will make a huge impact. And so you have to be a little curious about it, in an area that is probably a bit angsty for you. So that is why it is so hard.
So if you learn nothing else, I think from this conversation, I do hope that if you are a student who is wondering if we might be talking about you, or that you identify with some of the struggles we're talking about, you just take a deep breath and realize that this is all about just helping you show up. And the conversations are just not always going to be easy, but they are going to lead you down a path that can be, in the end, empowering.
And I just want that thread to stay in here, because it is really challenging and there's so much shame. These are very complicated issues. You may not have support from your family. It can be really rough. So a lot of compassion, but also a nudge to try and take some steps to allow yourself to perform at your best.
Professor Heather Varanini: My only comment was going to be, but isn't that also law in its best form, that sometimes things are uncomfortable, but then we end up feeling hopefully empowering our clients or otherwise? True that. No, that's such a good point. Okay, so we have talked about, I think in a little bit of a broad conversation, why law school is uniquely challenging for neurodivergent students. We've talked about ADHD.
What are some other general challenges that you see for neurodivergent students in law school? Professor Heather Varanini: The big one I see and my students want to talk about all the time really is time management. And it comes in a lot of forms. For example, I think it ends up being something like, "How do I manage my day? How can I get all the things that I want to get done done in a day? How can I use my time effectively?", and that sort of thing. That comes up, I would say, pretty often.
So, some of the things that we talk about is, what are the things that are most important? We talk about creating and maintaining a schedule, we talk about prioritizing and reprioritizing and a lot of those things. And some of it too is about also what to do when there're hiccups in the schedule, as there tends to be in law school, and then also, when you go out into practice. And so, we work on those things. I mean, my schedule never changes. I don't know what you're talking about.
I joke that I'm always like, open my calendar, I'm like, "This is what I think my day will look like. Let's see how it unfolds." One of my favorite things to say to my son. He always wants to know the answers to certain things. I'm like, "I'm going to call on flexibility. I'm going to you to be flexible. That is where we are." So, Rebecca, did you have something to add?
I was going to say one of the other things I find that students struggle with... I mean, I struggled with this when I was studying for law school, but I experience students struggling with this when they're studying for the bar exam a lot too - and it's dealing with large blocks of text, and how do you process that, especially if you're someone with ADHD, your brain is just moving so many miles per minute.
And my advice for that is, seek out resources that give you a variety of ways to understand the information, whether that's through graphs, charts, infographics. There are a multitude of ways. Try listening to things and reading them at the same time. Ways to keep yourself engaged, versus trying to force yourself to sit there and read a massive block of text, or an entire case, or whatever your professor has assigned. So, that's huge for a lot of people.
I've also found micro breaks to be really helpful for some of my students, especially those with ADHD. I know we're focusing on ADHD, but that is one of the more common challenges that we see, I think, in this space. I have students keep a notebook next to them and try and catalog when they lose focus, because I think that sometimes this happens in the bar exam too, maybe the first hour they could do 45 minutes, but the second hour it's 30, and then the third hour, maybe it's 25.
And if you can start to see where those pain points are, I think then you can play with those coping mechanisms. If it's a case, maybe you can only do two pages without standing up and stretching, or doing a breathing exercise, or closing your eyes or doing something to flood your body and reengage. I've had students come up with all sorts of coping mechanisms for micro breaks, even in bar exam situations, that have been hugely helpful.
But there is a little bit of awareness of where the struggles are, so you can come up and test these solutions. And I think once you see what works for yourself, it can be very powerful because you can implement versions of it in lots of different ways.
This advice too does not only apply to neurodivergent students. We just have shorter attention spans. I will be the first to say I love TikTok. I love the Internet, but scrolling the Internet consistently has made our attention spans very, very short. And that does not bode well with the way you have to learn things for law school. So, if you're listening to this and you're like, "I don't think I have ADHD", that doesn't mean this advice won't be helpful to you either, right?
Taking small breaks. The Themis course, for example, is broken down into 15 to 25-minute video segments, because we know that that's the optimal amount of time for a student to absorb that information, and then have a built-in break to process it. So, you have to think about that too, even if you're not somebody who's struggling with some form of neurodivergence when they're studying. Professor Heather Varanini: my gosh, so
true. I have a great podcast with Jessica Elefante, who's an author who wrote about this. And I just read the Anxious Generation book. Oh my goodness, so much information on this. And I do not have ADHD, I am considered someone with very high executive functioning skills, and my phone can ruin it all. My maid of honor at my wedding said I was super responsible and organized. That is who I am as a person. And I can watch my responsible, organized self melt with attention-stealing technologies.
So, I'll link to some of those other conversations we have on this topic, but that is such a good point, that all of us in this modern age are struggling with some sort of attention deficit issue. And I think it's really interesting. Now there are new products that are remarkable, which I haven't tried, which is basically like a very simple iPad-type thing, so you can't access the Internet because we have to put up barriers for ourselves so we cannot get distracted.
Back in the dark ages, when I went to law school, you could just unplug the ethernet cord. The first year of law school, we didn't have Wi-Fi in the classrooms. It all broke down with Wi-Fi, I'll be honest, because then it was really bad if the teacher saw you pull out the ethernet cord to plug in your computer during class. So, it kept us all very honest, right? But Wi-Fi has ruined all of that.
It is so funny. I will say the focus modes function on iPhone, if you're an iPhone person - that's a game changer. I can have mine set to reading focus, for example, and I'm getting no notifications during that time, because I've set it up like that. It's some work to get it set up, but once you have those on, if you actually remember to use them, they're super helpful.
That's true. I do have, although I do not have it scrubbed well enough, a work focus on my phone that is supposed to just automatically, with time, control my notifications. But I swear it's like the parental controls - they never quite work exactly as you think they do. I don't know. I don't know, Apple, if you're listening - which I'm sure you're not - I think we have some holes in this system. Heather, do you think we all have some form of attention deficit issues in our modern world?
Professor Heather Varanini: Like Rebecca was saying, we do know that in the age of the Internet, our attention span has gotten definitely shorter. Airplane mode got me through law school, I'm not going to lie. And I always tell my students, "Listen, you've got two great things I think that'll help you aside from that, which is also, you can pick the time of day that you're most alert, and do your hardest task then." I'm going be honest, I struggled with Contracts.
I was pretty sure that every time I showed up to my Contracts class, I was in the wrong classroom, and then I had the wrong casebook. It was just, it was a little bit of a nightmare. So, do that at your most active time. Again, attack the really tough stuff at the time when you're most alert. And then also if anyone's heard of the Pomodoro method, that's a great place to start when you want to try to be really productive.
And so, Lee, like you were saying with the micro breaks, that's a really good way to get started with structure. So take that one-hour time block, sit down, again, turn your notifications off, set your timer to, I think it's 20 minutes, and then work for 20 minutes. It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be work. Get going. And then take that five-minute break.
Set your timer for five minutes, get up, do what you need to do, go to the bathroom, come back when it's done, and then work again, work, break, until you hit the one-hour mark. And for a lot of folks that can be really helpful to re-engage, because one hour of really effective work is better than if you're sitting at the library just for three hours. And you're sitting there for three hours and it might look good, but you didn't get anything done, right?
So, if you're looking for a way to try to get back into work, try some of that stuff. And just like Rebecca was saying a little bit earlier, what really matters is the stuff that we're talking about. Again, it really helps everybody, and I think that's a really good way to have an eye towards stuff, because as I'm talking to my classroom, a lot of my students are like, "That was really helpful."
Whether it's chunking or they're talking about the Pomodoro method, they're like, "I don't have ADHD, but that helps to do that. I'm more effective in an hour than I was in like the four hours I was in the library." And so, try stuff out, see what works, especially when you're in your first year law school and you're new. Try some stuff, see what sticks. Yeah, it's so true. And it may change subject to subject. We all have subjects we do not like; Civil Procedure is mine.
And I was a civil litigator. Don't tell my big firm. But it was terrible. It was terrible. And studying that was like pulling teeth. But I loved criminal law, and so I could sit and read those cases because I found them entertaining. I really like stories, and so anything that had a good story, I felt like I could get into.
So we all have these challenges and these are really about just working on your executive functioning skills, and the better you get at that, the better lawyer you're going to be in practice, because unfortunately, the legal environment requires you to be organized and deliver things on time, and your clients want things to be without mistakes, and this is high stakes stuff.
If you do trusts and estates law and you don't have good systems in place to support you when you do that work, that can really have real life ramifications. And so, this is the place to experiment and figure out how to be a high-functioning version of yourself, because your clients are going to need it. And the stakes out in the real world are much higher than grades.
I think that's a very interesting point, and I'd like to comment on that, in that nobody who gets to law school doesn't have some level of high executive functioning to begin with.
Oh, sure.
For me, specifically, and I know I'm not the only person that experienced it like this, I came into law school with all of these systems, like I'd been a to-do and a planner person, a written paper planner person for my whole life. And I had all these ways of keeping track of things. But it was when it came time to do the deep work - that's where it all fell apart for me. And I think that's where it falls apart for a lot of students who are having this new world thrown at them.
If you're very routine-based, law school really takes you out of that. If you are somebody who doesn't have to study very hard, then gets to law school and you have to study very hard - that throws you off of what you're used to. And so it's not just, "Oh, I have some form of neurodivergence that I'm now learning how to cope with." We've all been coping with them for our entire lives.
We have to learn newer, more effective, deeper ways of coping with this, whatever that may look like for you, to elevate your already very high functioning status, because it just takes it all to a new level. I just didn't want us to come across as saying people with neurodivergence are low-functioning,not that I think that was the intention of what anyone was saying.
I just wanted to make it clear that if you made it to law school in the first place, good for you, because you have not had an even playing field from the jump, and that's an amazing accomplishment.
Yeah, I 100% agree. Alright, I feel like we could just talk, talk, talk all day, but as much as we don't have all day, I wanted to run through a few specific student scenarios and get some specific advice, because you both have a lot of wisdom. So, we talked about some strategies for reading dense legal texts, but other than shutting off your Wi-Fi, how do you stay focused during a long lecture? What do you tell a student that comes to you with that?
Professor Heather Varanini: I think your suggestion of micro breaks still applies, right? So I'll say a couple of things. First and foremost, what's really important is the study environment for a lot of folks, right? So, do the things in class that you know work for you. I was the kind of person which I knew that I was going to be easily distracted if I sat in the back. Also, I can't see. So, I had to sit in the front.
And I didn't want to sit a bunch of rows back when I knew that people were, let's say, shopping for underwear - I swear to God it happened - and shoes, and wedding dresses, and that sort of thing. So, I sat right in the front. I also sat next to people who I knew could hold me accountable if I was to be distracted. And so, consider whether that's going to work for you. And then also, if you find your mind wandering, consider that you might have to get up and take a bathroom break.
I tell some of my students all the time, "Take a bathroom break. Just get up and take a walk." And I know that a lot of folks, especially when you start law school, you can be very worried you're going to miss information. Listen, it's worth it if it helps you re-engage. You missed two to three minutes of lecture, you can always just ask around. But again, just take a quick break and come back and come back fresh.
And also, if you need to do something at the same time as your lecture, then for me, engaging and staying engaged meant that I was taking notes. That was my thing, but for some people that might be doodling. That can be something else to stay engaged, that's okay too. So consider the things. Again, a lot of this is about knowing yourself well. And when you're starting law school, it takes some time to figure out, that's okay. And time doesn't mean a week.
You're not going to figure out in a week. Like we were talking a little bit earlier, like Rebecca was saying, a lot of us come because we're extremely smart, we are extremely driven, and we're high-achieving, right? And so we expect that we're going to learn things quickly and we're going to hit the ground running. That is not what happens for most of us in law school. So what I say when I mean "time" is I do mean a month, several weeks. It does take time.
So give yourself a little bit of grace there, but check some stuff out, but really know yourself and learn what those things are. So again, what I'm saying is, start to figure out what those things are that are going to help you re-engage in class, and again, turn your notifications off, that's really critical. Sit in a place that's going to help you. If you've got a friend that's chatty, don't sit next to them. I know that sounds silly, but don't do it.
And again, if for some reason you drop out of lecture, you need a break, take a quick bathroom break. Rebecca, did you have anything to add?
Yeah, I think that's all really great advice. And honestly, I wish I would have thought about sitting in the front next to people who held me accountable when I was in law school. That's really excellent advice. I was definitely in the back, shopping. And that wasn't because I didn't want to pay attention in class. I just couldn't sometimes. So, I think that's awesome advice.
The other thing I'll say is a technique that I find really re-energizes me and helps me get back on track - this is going to sound silly - but breathing through your left nostril. And that's easy to do when you're in class. You can just put your head on your hand and hold the right side of your nose closed. But it's a very energizing breath work, and it gets you focused pretty quickly. And you don't have to do it for very long, and you don't have to do anything in particular.
Just like plug that side of your nose and breathe for a few minutes through that, and you might find that it wakes you back up a little bit. Beyond that, I think setting up your devices in advance so they are not distracting, right? I talked about that focus mode before. You can set up focus mode on your MacBook. You can probably do it on a PC. I don't really know, I'm an Apple girl.
Sorry to everyone else, I can't advise you on PC stuff or Android stuff, but I'm sure those functionalities exist or apps exist. Do that work in advance to make sure that you're not as tempted to fall down that rabbit hole of distraction while you're in class and needing to stay engaged. But beyond that, yes, being aware of when you're zoning out, taking those micro breaks, having things to fidget with, if you're somebody who needs a fidget toy.
Actually, somebody in my law school classes - and I wish I would have done this too - she would knit. She would knit during lecture, and you are so focused on what your hands are doing, that it's very hard for your brain to stray away from the listening aspect of things. So, if you have something like that in your wheelhouse, try it out. And if your professor gets upset with you, maybe talk to them, but probably they won't.
I feel if I told my professors why I was doing it, I think they would have supported it.
Yeah. I was a first one or two row girl, because I also did not enjoy watching what everyone was doing on their computers. And I just want to say that if messing with your notifications feels too complicated, you could just turn off the Wi-Fi. I know it's a radical idea to just turn it off, guys. You could just turn it off. Your phone could go into airplane mode. I'm just saying, we do get on airplanes and shut stuff off.
It's a really good practice for all of our anxiety not to be reachable at every moment of every day. And I say this with even two kids. But I think that sometimes we almost make it really complicated. I'm like, "I'm going to do all this stuff to set myself up to focus", when we could just shut off Wi- Fi, and then it will not work for a while. That
is so fair, and honestly the much easier route to take. Yeah! I just like to have those focus modes set up in general throughout my life.
Old school, old school. Just turn it off. Just turn it off. Low barrier to entry, just no tech needed. It'll work on a PC or a Mac or your iPad, anything. You just turn it off. Okay, alright.
I would turn off the dialup. Same idea.
Right, exactly. Exactly. Oh my gosh, we don't have time, but some other time, the next podcast I'll explain to you how hard it was for me to get a landline in my house, because I wanted my son to be able to call us on a phone and he does not have a cell phone. It cost me a fortune, very difficult, should be very easy. Anyway, that's a whole another story, not for this moment. Alright, so we've talked about staying focused in long lectures.
Don't hang out with people you want to chat with like we are right now. That's not a good thing to do in class. Don't shop for wedding dresses, don't read blogs. We've all done it, but don't do it. We've talked about reading dense cases. Now, here's another one in the classroom that creates so much
What if you get cold called? I think this creates a lot of anxiety for all students, but I think for some neurodivergent students, this is like a nightmare scenario. So, Heather, do you want to start with what you coach students on this? Professor Heather Varanini: Yeah, so I tell them that it's also a really good tip for being an effective lawyer, which is, be prepared.
There're a couple of places where the fear comes from, but one of the places the fear comes from is the lack of preparation, right? And so, be prepared by reading your cases and briefing them effectively. Also, add a notes section to your brief, so that you can share some of the thoughts that you have about the case. But also, a question section, in case that there's something that you don't understand about the case.
Do your best to brief the case, but if there's stuff that you don't understand, write those questions. Let's say that you get a case and you really didn't understand, but you did your best, your professor cold calls on you. Best that you can do is take a deep breath. The next thing that you can do is do your best. And then if they're asking you questions and then you didn't understand, be honest. Say, "You know what? That's a great question.
I did my best, but this is actually a part of the case that I didn't understand. Can you help me? Or can I call on co-counsel?" And I know the fear also comes from people feeling like their classmates or the professor are going to think that they're stupid. First and foremost, nobody should be judging you if you have a bad day on briefing. It happens to the best of us. I had days that did not go well in class. Did we all have that in law school, where we got cold called and it did not go well?
Yeah. Guess what? Nobody remembers, other than us. Nobody thinks of us different. And if they did, they're jerks, frankly, right? Everybody in the classroom has that day. Even your professor had that day. And I can also guarantee your professor will likely not remember you having that day. So, be honest and say, "You know what? I need a little bit of help here."
And let's say worst case scenario, your professor is awful and they shame you - I guarantee your other classmates will turn on the professor. Okay? They will not feel bad about you. So just do your best. And again, if you didn't understand something, be upfront about it. And again, the best thing that you can do is take a deep breath and try to answer the questions to the best of your ability. But again, preparation is key here. Is there anything I missed, Rebecca, that you'd like to add?
No, I think that's excellent advice. My most embarrassing moment in law school was actually when I got cold called because the professor saw me trying to skim the reading while she was lecturing, and then I tried to muddle my way through it. This was naturally in Civil Procedure. So, I tried to muddle my way through it. I
told you it's the worst. It's
the worst. Professor Heather Varanini: Oh, I love it. It was my least favorite class. And she was like, "Next time if you didn't do the reading, just tell me at the beginning." My face was on fire. And I wish I would have just said, "I'm sorry, I wasn't prepared", or whatever. But I just tried to fake it, and that was not a good situation. Obviously that's dependent on the professor, whether they're going to be nice to you about it or not. This one was not.
And honestly, I respect her for that, because she was trying to do her job and teach us, and I came to class and took time out of the class to muddle my way through something that I didn't understand. She probably didn't need to call on me - that's neither here nor there - but I think being upfront about it and being honest, because every single person that you are in law school with, there are days that they don't do the reading.
I would be so shocked if there's somebody who did every single piece of reading for law school, because that's almost an impossible task. Wait, did you, Lee?
No, I was just going to say no, of course not. No, it's impossible.
It's impossible, right? No, your face was like, I thought you were going to be like, "Actually,
I did." I was trying to be funny. No, no, no, of course not.
That's great advice, Heather. And, beyond that, I think being prepared goes beyond just doing the reading, right? It's knowing your strengths and weaknesses and knowing how, as early as possible, to brief a case in a way that makes sense for you. That way you're not going into class and being like, "Oh my gosh, I know I've read all of this, but these notes don't make any sense." Make your notes make sense.
The goal is to learn the material, not to follow a specific structure or format of briefing a case or preparing for class. Professor Heather Varanini: Yeah, that's such a great point, because your professors don't expect you to have it memorized. That's not the issue. Listen, part of the goal in case briefing, just to be clear, they are your lawyerly notes about the case. The goal here is to teach you how to synthesize effectively. That's something lawyers have to do really well.
And so, they're there for you to reference. So don't feel like you have to also have this memorized. You're not on there to just memorize and have this perfect answer. That's not what is happening. And also know that cold calling, the Socratic method, is there to ask you questions until you give a wrong answer. That's what's going to happen. And it's not there to make you look bad, but it's there to get the answers out of you, to do a back and forth.
So, know that you're going to get to a point where you're going to get a wrong answer. So, you have to also get out of the habit of trying to be perfect. And I say this as a person who went into law school very Type A, and had to start my career in a very different way. I laugh at myself, so if you're wondering why am I laughing, I'm laughing at me. Really know that the goal here is about learning. And Lee, you said something earlier about shifting your mindset to the growth mindset.
That's what a lot of this is about, is figuring out about knowing yourself and learning and growing and seeing these as opportunities. A lot of times, it's not going to feel good. You're going to feel uncomfortable and it will probably feel ugly and awful a lot of the time. Not to say it has to, but know that part of this is all about this learning process, and law school's going to feel really different in a lot of ways, and it is different than anything else you've experienced before.
But there's a level of uncomfortability that's normal, and that's okay. But lean into that knowing that part of the goal here is that you're trying to figure out and do some of this stuff to help set you up for your externships, to help get you through the rest of law school, and that not all of the uncomfortable feeling is bad.
Yeah. That's so great. Okay, there are two more things I want to make sure we hit in our time before we run out. One, let's stay in this classroom environment, because I think we're having a lot of fun reminiscing about all of our wins and could have been betters while we were in law school. But Heather, you mentioned about laptop prohibitions and how that is affecting some neurodivergent students.
I wanted to circle back to that, because I do think that some of our listeners may be curious about your thoughts on that. Professor Heather Varanini: Oh, I could rage about this all day. Sorry, I feel strongly. Like I said, I have opinions. When a professor bans laptops in the classroom, and then if a student has an accommodation, or a student needs then an accommodation in order to have the laptop in the classroom, I'll tell you why I think this is a problem.
It's because it then basically forces students to out themselves as having a disability in order to have the thing that they need to be successful in the classroom. Additionally, if a student does not have an accommodation and needs their laptop, they then have to go the extra step of getting an accommodation in order to get the thing that they need to be successful in the classroom.
And also, to be very clear, students who are disabled have been historically underrepresented, both in law school and in our profession. And so we're erecting these additional barriers for our students to be successful to get through school and to become lawyers. Again, there's already stigma. We don't need to continue to erect these false barriers that don't need to exist for our students. Again, it's already hard when you have a disability.
We don't need to continue to erect them, especially when it comes to something like learning. It shouldn't be that hard to, again, to show up into the classroom. So I feel, again, very strongly about it, because it's something as simple as where a student may just need to be taking their notes or something to that effect, or just accessing a material on their learning management system that they have in order to access some reference materials for class. But it's a really hot topic.
It's happening right now. I'm on a Listserv, and the Listserv is popping off about this. And the majority of folks who do what we do are not in favor of them, but there're some old - some of them are a quarter century old - articles that have some varied evidence about whether or not they're good to have. So, that's where we're at. Very interesting. That is
such a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier, with the fact that systems are not in place to support neurodivergent students. Certainly there are people in classes abusing having laptops, right? But there are also people who are either not aware that they're neurodivergent, or who are but don't have the tools to help them stay focused or whatever the issue may be.
And so, instead of setting up systems to help these students succeed from the beginning, it's we're just going to ban laptops, right? And I'm sure that shows up in other ways too. I'm sure the professors who are doing that are well intentioned; their goal is to have an engaged classroom environment. But that's obviously not the right solution, because it's going to prohibit many students from being able to learn effectively.
So, I think there needs to be a larger conversation around how to set up a classroom environment from the beginning of a semester to make sure that everybody who's in that room has the opportunity to study in a way that makes sense for them. I don't know what that looks like, right? I'm not claiming to have the answers, but...
I mean, let's talk least restrictive means this is what we do as lawyers, right? So, I'd like to just go back to my other brilliant point of, just shut the Wi-Fi off. I mean, if we're worried students are chatting, what are we really worried about? We're worried that students are goofing off on their computers and not paying attention. Is the laptop inherently the problem, or is it what we're doing on the laptop?
And is there a way that we can create some scaffolding to really get to the concerns? I am a big proponent of handwriting notes, but if that does not work for you, we need to figure out how we can still keep an engaged classroom and support all of the students with their individual needs. But I do think that we oftentimes overcomplicate the issue. I don't know, we could just maybe lock the Wi-Fi in the classroom if you want to.
There are lots of different options, but nobody wants to talk about those. Maybe it's just not cool enough, I don't know. But you can add that to your list, Heather: "Lee Burgess and I were talking today and she just said to turn off the Wi-Fi." Professor Heather Varanini: But I was also going to say we've been doing the Socratic method since the late 1800s in law school. Yeah. Professor Heather Varanini: There may be a reason why students aren't engaged in the classroom, right?
Yeah. Professor Heather Varanini: Let's try something different. Yeah. Well, this has been a really fantastic conversation on an issue that we are very passionate about. So I have referenced a lot of other podcasts. For those who are listening, I'm going to share links to those in all of the show notes.
Heather and Rebecca, if folks want to learn more about resources or how to get support on these issues, do you have any recommendations within your own organizations or large organizations where students can get more information? So, Heather, I'm going to start with you. Professor Heather Varanini: That's a great question. I say always start with the folks at your law school. You can start with your disability services.
If you're part of a larger organization, that disability services office might be housed within your university. Also, talk to your academic support and bar services folks. They're a really great resource and they're oftentimes on the forefront of doing different stuff at your law school and want to be helpful in making sure that you've got a good law school experience and thinking outside the box and how to make that happen. And I think that's a really good place to start.
Yes. Rebecca, do you have any suggestions?
Yeah, I think I would echo exactly what Heather said, and I would seek out supplemental resources for your classes, if that makes sense for you. As you're trying to learn what your learning style is, if you don't already know, or if you're trying to make adjustments to the way that you study, seek out options. For me personally, I love Examples & Explanations, and I loved the Themis resources. They're a huge part of the reason I'm working for Themis today.
They are totally free, they give you bite-sized pieces of information, the black-letter law explained to you by a professor that is not the person that you're sitting in front of every day, which sometimes can make a world of difference in your understanding of a concept. And it gives you an exposure to those shortened videos that help you take those micro breaks without having to figure out where to take those breaks.
So, you can sign up for those completely for free at our website, ThemisBar.com. And if you have any questions about any of that, you can find us on social media @themisbar on all platforms.
Amazing. What a gift to share some of your morning with me today. Thank you so much. And we seem to have more to talk about, because I didn't even get through my whole list. So, we might have to get back together in the future to keep talking, because there's just so much to discuss on this topic. But I think one of the takeaways if you're listening to this, hopefully we made you laugh.
Hopefully we have encouraged you to engage and get support, because all of the folks who are on this podcast and who work at these law schools, we really want you to be successful. And it's all about just finding your way to be the best version of yourself, because we do need, as I think you mentioned, Heather, representation in the legal profession. So, we've got to get interested, engaged people to become lawyers so that we can all advocate for those who need advocating for.
Absolutely. Thank you for platforming this, Lee. It's really great to have this nuanced conversation and get to touch on some of these things that it's really hard to articulate well in a social media post or something like that. So, really appreciate your time.
Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks, Heather. Thanks, Rebecca. Remember, you can save on Themis Bar Review with our exclusive offer. Any Themis Bar Review course, whether you're sitting in 2025, 2026, or 2027, for just $1,695, using code LAWSCHOOLTB1200 at checkout. Lee Burgess (2): That's LAWSCHOOLTB1200, now valid through November 15th. If you enjoyed this episode of the Law School Toolbox podcast, please take a second to leave a review and rating on your favorite listening app.
We'd really appreciate it. And be sure to subscribe so you don't miss anything. If you have any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to reach out to myself or Alison at lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or alison@lawschooltoolbox.com. Or you can always contact us via our website contact form at LawSchoolToolbox.com. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!