Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast. Today we're excited to have Alison Bruhn and Delia Folk - creators of The Style That Binds Us - here with us to talk about professional style. Your Law School Toolbox host today is Alison Monahan, and typically, I'm with Lee Burgess. We're here to demystify the law school and early legal career experience, so that you'll be the best law student and lawyer you can be.
Together, we're the co-creators of the Law School Toolbox, the Bar Exam Toolbox, and the career-related website CareerDicta. I also run The Girl's Guide to Law School. If you enjoy the show, please leave a review and rating on your favorite listening app. And if you have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out to us. You can always reach us via the contact form on LawSchoolToolbox. com, and we would love to hear from you. Welcome back to the Law School Toolbox podcast.
Today we're excited to have Alison Bruhn and Delia Folk - creators of The Style That Binds Us - here with us to talk about professional style. So, welcome! Thank you. We're glad to be here. Oh, my pleasure. Well, to start off, can you just give our listeners a little bit of background so they have some context here?
Definitely. So I'm Delia, the daughter. Background is from Alabama, but we both live in Manhattan now. I interned at Versace and worked at Barneys on the buying team. And then Mom became a personal stylist, so she has been a personal stylist for 10 years. We were organically working together when I was at Barneys. And then we started separate blogs, and in 2018, we combined to create The Style That Binds Us.
So, The Style That Binds Us - we are public speakers, and our speech is about the transformational power of style and how to unlock your potential through your wardrobe and visual brand. And then Mom has moved away from the one-on-one styling. And now we've created a digital course where you learn everything you would learn working with her and more, which is called How to Find Your Style, Dress for Your Body Type, and Transform Your Look.
Awesome. Well, I am deeply fascinated by the fact that you're doing this as a mother- daughter pair. I definitely want to hear more about that. But if people want to learn more about you or reach out, how can they do that?
The Style That Binds Us website is the perfect place to go.
Okay, perfect. Well, tell me a little bit about how you guys became interested in this, and why did you decide to work together?
I'm laughing, because as we had some tech issues earlier, you saw one of the issues that we have to deal with often, with Mom not being so tech savvy.
Oh well, it happens.
Yes.
So, how did it happen? Basically, when I was at Barneys... and throughout your career, and especially in law, but I was working in fashion, and even then sometimes you aren't creatively fulfilled in every aspect. And so, I needed a creative outlet, something that was my own, so that I wasn't just living and breathing Delia 100% Barneys. And so, that led me to start my blog.
And so I wanted to interview the incredible designers that I was meeting while at Barneys and really tell their stories, because I felt that retailers were not telling brand stories, both digitally or in-person. I also wanted to share how I broke into the fashion industry, starting from square zero of knowing no one, knowing nothing about it. We will have digital courses about how to break into the fashion industry, where I teach exactly how I did that. So, that was my blog.
And then for Mom, women kept asking her the same questions again and again when she was working with them and their closet, especially redefining 40, 50, 60. What does 40, 50, 60 plus look like in 2024 and beyond? Also, through the aging process, Mom had a lot of questions, and so once she got those answers, I wanted her to share that with the world so that it could help other people. And so, basically those were the concepts that then we combined. We realized that we would be stronger together.
Mom at first did not want to work with me because coming from the South, she was like, "No, we have serious careers, this is a serious business, this is not some mother-daughter schtick type of thing, Mommy and me. And at some point she realized that we would be stronger together, that we can bring our experience and knowledge, and we can reach more women. And so, that is how we landed here.
Awesome. Well, many of our listeners are entering a professional workplace, perhaps the very first time, and they have no idea what to wear. I certainly did not. I grew up in the South, actually, in North Carolina. I had been in California for a number of years. I went to law school in New York. So I had kind of all these competing ideas about, what do you wear when you're working as a professional? Do you have any general advice for people who are kind of starting to answer this question?
What should they even be thinking about?
Okay, you need to create a core wardrobe that fits your body type and coloring. And then you need to be thoughtful about when you're choosing your outfit, if you're going to be client facing, if you're going to court, if you have an important meeting or an event. Of course, keep in mind the suggested dress code of that particular firm where you're working; and in the field of law, business professional is always a safe choice.
Definitely. And I remember, it was kind of a funny story. I was in my first year of law school, I'd done my first semester, I'd sent out job applications. And I was on winter break visiting my grandmother in Atlanta with my family and got an interview and I was like, "Oh my gosh, what do I do? I don't have anything to wear and I have to do this interview."
And so I went to, I think it was Nordstrom's or something like at the Atlanta Mall and got this personal shopper, and they were bringing out outfits in like bright pink with tassels. I was like, "I don't feel like this is the right vibe for a New York law firm."
Or any law
firm. I know, that's a good point right there. Be careful of the people that give you advice. They were probably selling the spring trends or whatever it was. Yeah.
It was actually very interesting. It was all a lot of pastels and I was just like, "This is December in New York City. I can't walk in..." Legally Blonde. It would have been. It would have been straight out of
Legally Blonde. I think the best advice is, understated and simple, and in the beginning you need to play it safe. So I wouldn't walk into an interview necessarily in a red dress. I think I would go more, I usually say navy is a universal color. It works for everybody. But the main thing is, let's say you need to get a dress quick, but you don't have a lot of money to spend. That's fine.
Just find a navy dress that fits your body type, that doesn't have a bunch of ruffles or anything distracting on it. And then go to an alterations person and get them to make the dress look like it's a designer dress. If the dress fits you perfectly, if it's not too big, not too tight, and it's the right shape for your body... And make sure that your shoes, they don't have to be designer shoes either, but your shoes are in really good condition.
Make sure the skirt is not too short, if you're going to be sitting down, meeting with someone. Try on the dress in the dressing room, sit down and see if, "Oh, I thought it was long enough. And then when I sat down, it was all the way up halfway up my thigh." What happens is once you get one thing like that, then you're off your game, right? You're distracted, you're trying to fix your clothes, and then you're like, "Wait, what was I supposed to say?" You messed up the whole thing.
So, the main thing is, wear something that you're comfortable with, that there's nothing distracting about it, that fits you beautifully. And I would say I would wear some jewelry; these are too big. I would wear discreet, but a little bit of jewelry, because it just kind of makes things shine and look nice. Understated makeup, make sure your hair looks nice.
Yeah. I think it's not super mysterious, but I think it can feel mysterious for a lot of people who maybe just haven't had to do this before.
Right. And I also think there are a lot of people that think, "Well, it shouldn't matter what I wear because I don't want anybody to tell me what I'm supposed to wear", which I totally get. But I also know we're talking about setting yourself up for success,
right? Right. I mean, the reality is you're definitely playing a role here, and that role is young professional, not somebody rolled out of the bed in their sweatpants. Right, wet
hair, anything like that. Right, exactly, because also they listen to what you are saying much better if there's not something distracting going on.
Definitely. Alright, well, let's back up a little bit. What type of people do you guys generally work with? And what are some of the recurring challenges that you see people having?
We work with all kinds of women, but especially if it's related to career, or interviews, or it can be someone who is going on their first interview. Now, sometimes it's a Zoom interview, and that's really nerve-wracking, because that's all they see, is just they can just critique you the whole time. It makes people feel uncomfortable. Also, I work with authors when they're going on the book tours. We work with university professors who have been asked to make some videos for their department.
We work with mainly people of substance, women that have a lot of good things going on, and that they're not fashionistas, they don't want to be fluffed up. They want to figure out, "How can I present myself in the best way and make sure that I am using my physical presence to help me in whatever my goals are, rather than sabotaging?"
Right. No, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that is kind of a struggle for attorneys, particularly because they are walking into these scenarios, where maybe you're in trial, you're in front of a jury, you're in a meeting with a judge, and people have expectations and they're projecting things on to you. And it's certainly obviously more complicated, I think, for women, just to kind of walk that line of, what's too much, and what's not enough, and all of these things.
It is, but also I encourage people to tone it down, polish it up, but also if you have to go one way or the other, like Delia was saying, It's okay to be in heels and a dress when you walk into the courtroom. Because recently I had a young lawyer tell me a story about, she felt so good and prepared, and then she got to court and she looked around and she looked at what she had so thoughtfully picked out and realized, "I don't think I'm dressed appropriately."
So then she was nervous, and then she lost her bravado, and then she felt like she didn't do as good of a job as she had thought she would. And now she was nervous about the next court appearance. So, lay ahead.
I can definitely relate to that. I feel like when I was going into court, there were certain outfits that were kind of my power outfit. I am not a fashion person, but I understood that I needed certain things to wear. So, I had this one pinstripe suit that had a very bright blue pinstripe. It was just a little something, very appropriate, like a little pop. And I was like, "I love that suit." And when you went into court, did you feel good? Oh yeah, exactly.
I walked in like I am in charge of things, I know what's going on. Alright, well, let's talk about a few scenarios. So, I'm a second-career law student. I'm a lot older than most of my classmates. I am concerned about job interviews and summer programs. And people are really going to take me seriously as a lawyer, or are they just going to see me as some old fuddy duddy? What could I do?
Well, the main thing, the first thing to do is put age out of your mind, if possible. I know that's much harder done than said, but think of yourself in your group in law school as a mentor, because you've had all this life experience. Don't feel dated or frumpy. If you dress that way and if you feel that way, and you use that posture, then you're just going to kind of disappear and they're going to be like, "Oh, you know that older person that's in the class."
But I don't think that law students are going to spend a lot of time going, "Look at the old person in the class." They probably have other things. It's just like, wear simple clothes. Again, nothing that you would get somewhere and go, "Ooh, maybe I shouldn't have worn my really cute big flower top after work or after class, whatever, a summer associates party type thing. Maybe I should have worn something a little more casual and everything, but just not so playful." Does that make sense?
I feel like there's a time for florals and lace and all those kinds of things, and certainly sequins and sparkly things, but they're not necessarily for business. You still want to be taken seriously and err on the side of caution. But also, don't wear frumpy clothes. If you put something on from your closet and you think, "I think this might be frumpy, this might be nerdy" - well, then it is nerdy. If you even ask the question, don't risk it. Get some clothes that you feel good in.
There's a difference in being old and frumpy, and being cool and sophisticated. When you think of all the law procedurals that we watch, Suits and Scandal and all those different shows, how those women dress they're older and they're power women. So, turn it into a powerful thing rather than not a good feeling thing.
No, I love that. Alright, well, my next question scenario: I'm coming straight out of undergrad into law school and I look even younger than I am. How can I start seeming professional without feeling like I'm playing dressup? And I can definitely tell you as someone who looks younger than they are, this is a big one. Sure. I've had people ask this.
Avoid wearing round toe shoes. Avoid florals, ruffles, and puff sleeves - anything that gives a little girl girly vibe. If wearing your hair pulled back makes you feel older, then you can create your hairstyle around that. But sticking with tailored pieces and avoiding more soft, relaxed, youthful pieces.
Yeah, I've even had friends who started wearing fake glasses and things like that.
A lot of people do that, for sure. I know that sounds crazy, but anything that is a little girl look that's like when your waist is out - there are a lot of things that just signal to the person who's looking at you, "little girl". And then there're some things that signal "woman". It doesn't matter how you look, how tall you are, how short you are, if you're wearing a great blazer that has maybe a little bit of shoulder pads, even if you're in a T-shirt and jeans or whatever, you still look...
Loafers, Oxfords not like a little girl Oxford - but there are some shoes that are more grown-up. It sounds kind of silly, but shoes really are a big part of an outfit.
Oh, for sure. I had a pair of patent leather loafers that every time my friend saw me leaving the house says, "You're going to a lawyer thing, aren't you? Those are your lawyer shoes." And they were. They were literally what I'd put on to go networking at the bar association or whatever. Absolutely. For sure. Alright, so our next question: I am self-conscious about aspects of my body. I don't necessarily love how I look in typical work clothes.
How can I start feeling more comfortable, but still looking presentable? I'll take that one. Alright. First of all, you need to know your body type, that's kind of universal. Everyone really needs to know their body type and the colors that work best for them, but especially their body type. Once you know your body type, then there's something called the "ABCs of dressing", and that's "Accentuate" the parts of your body that you feel good about.
"Balance" between the top half and the bottom half. Let's say your shoulders are wider than your hips - to create balance, you would wear a wider pant and nothing on your shoulders that is going to add width, to bring everything more into balance. And then "Camouflage". Camouflage is just to sort of take the emphasis and attention away from those areas.
And so, once you know those three things, and you know your body type, and then you know the colors that work well for you, then it's so easy to find a go-to look. For me, I have a waist and I have hips. Coco Chanel created that Chanel suit for women that had boyish figures - up and down, they have no curves. But for someone like me, and a lot of women, that cropped little tweed jacket does not work. So, you don't need to keep trying that on and trying to make it work.
When you go shop, you see it, you're like, "That's so cute for someone else. I'm heading over here to this blazer that I know the double-breasted blazer is the thing for me." And then after that, it's easy just to have the core pieces that go under it. So, it's difficult until it's not, if that makes sense. Once you can label those things like, "Oh, okay, this is my body type. And here's a list of things to avoid, here's a list of things to go towards", and then you're off to the races.
I think that sounds great. I'm definitely one of those people who goes shopping, I'm like, "Oh, that's so cute." And I'm like, "It's probably not going to work." And I try it on anyway, and then I feel bad. I'm like, "That does not work for me. I know that that dress type does not work for me. I'm not even getting in the dressing room with this."
We talk a lot about that. We talk about that in our speech. It's called "looking outward instead of looking inward". "Oh, that's so cute." But 99% of women, or people, don't stop and close their eyes for a minute and think, "This is really cute. How is this going to work on me and what do I have in my closet?" If you trust the person in the store, that's great, but you're not necessarily going to get the right answer there.
You need to leave, figure out the right dress shape for you, and then for the rest of your life, you know exactly which dress shapes work for you.
Well, it sounds like I should take your course, because I still do not feel like I have that actual knowledge of myself. I've tried a variety of things. There was a business for a while that a lawyer friend of mine started that was amazing, because they would just go shopping for you and come to your house and bring you everything to try on, and then just take it all back. And I was like, "This is magic." Unfortunately, it wasn't a sustainable business model, but... And unless you
knew your body type... Every person's body type and colors and all of that kind of stuff. She might have had to take back a lot of stuff. I don't know.
Yeah, they took back a lot. They gave me some cute stuff though. And then for a while, I was really into... In San Francisco, they had the in-person Rent the Runway store. So that was great, because again, I had no idea what I should be wearing. And I'd just go down and be like, "Oh, all that seems fine." Unfortunately, the pandemic put a stop to that. I had a store I used to go to - pretty high-end store in San Francisco when I was first starting to work as a lawyer and had nothing to wear.
And I literally presented myself one day and I was like, "I need you to dress me." And she's like, "Perfect. We can do that." I was a good enough customer for a while that I actually did get some Christmas presents from them. But yeah, I feel like I've gone through life and still have no idea what to wear. Right, right. You've got a lot
going
on, so don't fret about that. Yeah, no, I think this is for so many people such a big problem. Alright, well, let's do a few more before we wrap up. So, I'm a student, I have a really limited funds, and I need something to wear to law firm interviews. Any ideas?
Many colleges, they actually have a closet or a wardrobe, an interview wardrobe that you can borrow from. So, definitely ask and see if there're any options like that at your school, or maybe they could give you a stipend that you can use towards your interview attire. So, what we recommend when you're shopping - timeless silhouettes that work for your body type, dark solids, clean lines. So, we want this simple, timeless silhouette. Buy it.
When you're building your wardrobe, it's like building an art collection - that's how we say. So basically, you want to buy the best quality that you can afford at that time. We want less, but better. You don't need a whole wardrobe of "maybes", or, "Oh, this is only $200 and this is $400, $600." If you just chose that one $400 dress, you can mix and match and wear it in a million different ways. Consignment is how we built my Barneys wardrobe.
You can't go in there and check everything off your list. Unfortunately, that's more of a treasure hunt. But being thoughtful about just getting scrappy - so, consignment is a phenomenal option. You could also do Rent the Runway and get it tailored to fit your body, like Mom said. Those are a couple of examples.
But if you invest in one of these dresses - the navy, the black dress and you keep it in good condition, you can have it for many years, and you can wear it for both work and also other occasions. Accessorizing will be key in order to change it up.
Nice. Yeah, I think the dress that Delia had her first interview in... I still have it. It's in my closet. It was a Theory dress, right? Theory is not inexpensive. It had the peplum on it. It's the perfect dress, very understated. And she still has it in her closet right now, and she's 10 years out of college. So that's our point - if you get the right piece, that's that dress that's always in your closet for, it might be a funeral, a meeting.
If you can put on a different earring, you can wear it for a cocktail dinner with some strappy heels, that kind of thing.
Yeah, I definitely have a few of those dresses, and thank goodness for that, because I pull them out when I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I have to go to an event. What do I wear? Oh, I can wear that. It's so fancy."
Exactly.
Alright. Well, before we wrap up, a question I think a lot of people often have: I feel like I have tons of clothes in my closet, but I never have anything to wear. What should I do?
Mom, that's you. Well, you have to do a closet edit. But you can't do a closet edit until you know your body top and the right colors for you. Because once you know it, then you've got to try on everything in your closet. And then you will say, "Oh, now I know why I love this, because this is the right thing. I'm short-waisted, so that's why this top works on me." And then you try on something else and go, "Oh, now I get it. I'm short-waisted, so this is never going to work. It's not me.
It's not that I don't have any style. It's that I picked a piece that won't work for my body type." And so, that's how you edit your closet. The things that are just never going to work, and then there're some things that used to work, but your body might've changed, or things that you just, like Delia was saying, you bought three of them in every color because you liked one of the pairs, but you're never going to wear the yellow pants, that kind of thing.
And some of the things need to be altered. One of the problems that people do is, they make all these piles and then they never go do it. I finally went today myself to get a few things altered that I have been having sitting in a pile for several weeks. And you feel so good when you do it. For example, if it's a black pair of pants and they just never fit right, go get them altered. That's worth the cost.
Because when you think about basic black pants, how many times are you going to wear those? You're going to wear those over and over and over and over and over. So they have to be of somewhat good quality, so they don't just fall apart. Because if they fall apart, you've got to start all over again. And it sounds a lot easier to find a good pair of black pants that you like than it really is. It is
hard. I can definitely attest to that.
It's like going to get a bathing suit or something. "I just want a simple pair of white pants."
Oh, don't we all aspire to that? Alright, well, we're about out of time here. Any final thoughts you guys would like to share?
I think just put your best foot forward. Think about it all. I'll say this: so let's say you are going into an interview, or you are a law student and you want to make a good impression for the professor, anything like that. Picture what that person would look like. Picture the lawyer that you would admire and go, "Okay, well, that's the way I want to look." And then craft your look around that. So, in this case, it's outward instead of inward, almost.
It's almost like, what would a partner at a law firm look like? What is that ideal that I have in my head? And I'm going to figure out how to dress for that, because then when I walk in, they can already visually see me in that role.
That makes a lot of sense. Alright, well, remind us again how people can find out more about you.
The Style That Binds Us website. And that's where you'll learn about the course as well.
Awesome. Well, thank you both so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode of the Law School Toolbox podcast, please take a second to leave a review and rating on your favorite listening app. We would really appreciate it. And be sure to subscribe so you don't miss anything. If you have any questions or comments, please don't hesitate to reach out to Lee or Alison at lee@lawschooltoolbox.com or alison@lawschooltoolbox.com.
Or you can always contact us via our website contact form at LawSchoolToolbox.com. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk soon!