Dating Over 40 w/ Damona Hoffman

of Renee Brown and her work. Renee Brown is a researcher. She studies shame, vulnerability, courage. I reference her literally all the time. And one of the things her research shows is that human beings are hardwired for story and in the absence of data, Uh, we make up stories, now, girl. Nowhere have I made up stories in the absence of data more than when it comes to men, dating and relationships and any of the sort of demographic things about ourselves.

We can't control, things like race, gender, identity, socio economic status, et cetera. Now, I plan to have a series of conversations about dating and all of these things, but today I want to focus on age, specifically dating over forty. I'm forty eight years old and single now for over a year and a half, and this is the first time in my life I am dating as someone openly over forty, meaning I no longer lie, deflect, pivot, obstut, kate, do full on matrix moves honey to avoid talking about

my age. So today my guest to certified dating coach and media personality Demona Hoffman. She is the host of the podcast Dates and Mates with Demona Hoffman, a frequent contry a video to The l A Times, The Washington Post, NPR, and more. Most recently, Demona can be seen doling out love advice on the Drew Barrymore Show. I have a lot to talk about, Demona. Demona, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? I'm living my best life? Thank you? How are you? I'm awesome and I'm so

excited to have this conversation with you. Can you first of all tell us how one becomes a dating expert? What how does that happen? It usually happens by becoming a dating disaster first and then figuring out the way to do it correctly. So I was way back in olden times when there weren't even dating apps. There were

dating sites. I was dating, frustrated, somewhat unsuccessful, very cynical about love la Verne, and I ended up finding a strategy that work because I was actually working as a casting director at the time in in TV, and I was teaching classes for actors in marketing and having headshots that would stand out to someone like me. So you could probably tell there's a similarity between what I would tell actors about getting noticed by the right kind of people and what I needed to do to get noticed

by the right kind of guys online. So I ended up using those strategies to meet my husband, and then so many people came to me, just friends and family, for help, saying, well, I tried online dating, it didn't work, and I say, let me see your profile, and I do the same thing, and I got so many calls. I'm getting married, I'm having a baby. I thought, Wow, maybe this is something that people really need. So I became certified as a dating coach and now help people

all the way from pre date to pre marriage. That's amazing. So a dating app is like marketing yourself, and it really is right, it really is, And I think a lot about Oh my god, my whole process that's going into casting, and there's definitely a relationship. For me, I can relate to that because I feel like dating and auditioning are very similar. Yes, auditions your first date, right, and and for me, I know for sure that when I go on a first date, I can't be self conscious.

I eat thinking about how I look. I remember I was going on a date in New York, and because I've been stood up so many times, I would make sure that the first date was a coffee date or drink within a block and a half of where I lived, and I would not leave my house or my apartment until he was already there. And so I remember, like he's texted me, He's oh, I'm here, where are you? Was like, oh, I'm a block away, And I was

a block away. I was home. So and as I was leaving this one time, I realized that how I was feeling really self conscious, and I was like, Okay, I need to let this go. In the very same way with my feeling self conscious when I go into an audition. If I'm thinking about how I look, I'm not in the character. I'm not in the authenticity of where I need to be for the circumstances of the scene, and so too for dating. Even though I'm gonna look my best, I have to be in my authenticity, which

is not about how I look. Yes, and I'm all about authenticity. My tagline is love as you are, and that's basically my philosophy. After doing this now for almost sixteen years, I've been helping people with dating profiles, and I've seen that the more you bring your whole self to the table, not like all your baggage, let me throw all my baggage on the table and see if

he runs away. But the more you really bring your authentic self, like you were saying, into the room, the more that you will be able to make a real connection. And I heard your last boyfriend that you met on Tinder, you didn't even wear makeup to the day, right, did not? So back then I found like I used to spend a lot of time getting ready for dates, and then I would meet him and then there wouldn't be a connection. And I spent all this time and I just felt

like annoyed, and so I was like, okay. Speically, when I became a little more known, I was like, he knows what I look like with makeup and kind of glad. So let me just not about not putting pressure on it, and I show up as myself because eventually, if we're date, he's going to see me without makeup anyway, so he

needs to be okay without everything, you know. And also you'll enjoy the process more if there's all this pretense of I have to do so much to get ready for the date, and I have to be thinking so much about what I'm saying and how I'm saying it on the date. You can't ever be free. You can't ever let go and just be yourself, now can. I really wanted to talk to you today, specifically about dating

over forty. I am forty years old now and I've been single for over a year and a half, and this is the first time in my life that I am dating as an openly over forty woman, meaning for years I lied about my age, and two years ago I started owning my age and I was still in relationship at the time, and so now I'm single and I'm back on the apps. I do not put my real age in my profile though, because I think the algorithms are ages or very few minute feel like and

this could be a story I've told myself. I feel like very few men are searching for forty year old black trans women. That's my thought. I could be wrong. Tell me I'm wrong if you have the data or back it up, you know. But once I start talking to them, I tell them my real age. I'm very happy and proud to be forty eight. But like, what are your thoughts on? There's so much, like I just said, so much. They're right about lying about your age algorithms. Girl.

First of all, when I heard you want to talk about dating over forty, I was like, well, Laver, it's over forty. It just goes to show that age is just a number, right, It's really more about the mindset and the energy level, the things you like doing, and having somebody who has common goals for the future. Yes, can I pause you there? Though, I'm sorry. This is

where I want to challenge you. I've listened to your podcast, I've read you fairly extensively, and you talk a lot about mindset and how we frame things, and I'm all about that. I'm all about manifesting the lives that we want. But I feel like in the realm of dating and I it was a part of me that's very hopeful and optimistic and another part of me that is super cynical because we are dealing with at least I'm dealing

with men. I'm dealing with straight identified men of all age groups, and I feel like so much of everything is thrown out the window when it comes to that. What are your thoughts on that cynical chick out there who's probably like me, who's like, well, yeah, I can manifest this and that can have the right mindset, but men are still gonna be men. It's true. It's true, men are going to be men. But I'll I can

back this up with receipts and with research. So it's not so much the algorithms as the way people search it is skewed. Two disadvantage women over forty. I'm just gonna put that all out there. But I say that because I have been able to help women over forty, over fifty, over sixty, who all come to me and say, well, men always want someone younger. I have if women in their thirties coming to me saying men always want someone younger.

So if men are always true, but if they're always looking for someone younger, how do I get people to these relationships, and that's by taking different action. And this is the key I teach people how to beat the algorithm, because if you are more proactive, if you are broader in your search, and like a lot of the swipe apps, you cannot do that much to change the algorithm. Like on an Okay, keep it or a match, you can send an outgoing message and this is something that most

women do not do. And from the beginning sixteen years ago when I started coaching on online dating, I've always had women be pro active. When Bumble came along, I was like, I got this. I've been I've been teaching people this for so long because it really does shift the algorithm, and it does improve your chances because, like you said, they might not be searching for you, but if you come up in their feed and they're like, oh,

she's sexy, they're going to swipe right. And research shows that if a man finds you attractive, he will ignore every anything else. He'll ignore the age, will ignore all the baggage, everything else, and then he'll just swipe right. And that's what you want. You want to get into conversation so that you can move things forward. Off of the app and into the real world. That's the purpose

of dating apps. I think people forget that the dating app as a tool, and they want to make all that connection online and they want to do all this vetting and identifying if somebody is right before they put any energy in before they show up on the date. But it's just the tool, and you can't really tell if you have chemistry or if your appropriate match for someone until you actually meet. Would you agree with that absolutely?

I absolutely agree with that pre pandemic. When I would single before and living in New York, I would make sure within matching with someone if we had not met for coffee within a week, I would like unmatched. Because I've been online dating for twenty years. My first boyfriend in two thousand, twenty years ago, I met on the dating app. It was a Transpacific dating app twenty years ago.

So what I learned through like being on Yahoo chat rooms a well chat rooms girl I've done at all, is that you can literally chat with a guy for years. There's a guy named John I don't know if this is real name, who I have literally been chatting with since probably two thousand five, two thousand six, right for years, we just like lost contact. We've never met in person, and it just never happened. I was like, when are

we going to meet? And I just became clear to me that he was into talking and having a pinpal communication thing, but he was not interested in meeting in person. And so that showed me that there are a lot of guys like that online the trans thing. Definitely, a lot of guys have fantasies about that, but then are are really nervous about meeting in person. So then I was like, if we're not meeting within a week, this is pre pandemic. I would unmatch because I feel I

was like, he's not really serious post pandemic. It's it's all all about video chatting for me, and this video chatting has screened out a lot of them. Can I tell you I feel a vibe. I feel a vibe on the video because sometimes there are pictures there. I find them attractive in their pictures, but once the image just moving and good or bad lighting, it's like not

there for me and the personality. Yeah, I'm a big fan of the video chat It's funny because I did an episode of the Dates and Maids podcast in March, like before everything hit first week in March, and I was like, this is the future of dating. Get on the video chat train, this is where it's going. And and I actually came to the same conclusion that you did about the one week time frame during the pandemic. I've said one no more than one week of chatting

before you move to the next step. And I realized I had to really be very clear and codify that for my clients and listeners because I always said, move offline as quickly as possible. But what is as quickly as possible means? So I'm like, okay, one week. In one week, you should know if someone has a true interest in you or not. And the problem is that a lot of us try to talk ourselves into situations. And so many of my clients will say, oh, yeah, but we really have a connection, or we have a

really good banter over text. But what you're doing then is you're developing a false sense of intimacy. You're developing false communication. And so much of communication is not the content of the words, and it's definitely not what you can take time crafting and right and equippe your response or gift or an emoji. It's really in that real

time communication that I'm trying to get people towards. And as you probably saw in the video chat, what people perceive from you is your body language, your vocal intonation. And then there's that X factor, which I look at really as intuition in a way. There's that other layer

that is hard to quantify, but it's absolutely there. When you just say I don't know why I just don't feel that connection with that person, I think that's your gut speaking, or I don't know why I do feel the connection when it's the chemistry that is so sort of inexplicable, but it's just there, and it's really rare. What I would always say about this for years is that it's not real. It's a fantasy. Until we're space to face, right, we're projecting, and I really try not

to do this. I really trying to project a fantasy or romantic fantasy onto any man. I've learned the hard way from having done that in the past. So what are the top three challenges that you find people faith and dating over forty Oh boy, that's a big question. I have my ideas. I have my ideas, but what do you think. Well, one thing that I run into a lot, particularly with women over forty, is that your life is pretty much formed by the time you're forty.

You have your friendship circle, you have your career, maybe you have kids, you have a life that is already very full. And one of the biggest challenges that I have when your life is already set like that is just creating the space for a mate to come in, Because if he comes in and you barely have time to have a first date with him, you cancel on him, You're always rescheduling him, you have one night available for a date, or he feels like you're putting your career

first and there's no space for him. He needs to feel like he has a function. And I'm I'm not big on traditional gender dynamics. I don't really buy into this idea of like, well, a man has to come and save you or have have that kind of function. But it's more just like, is there a place for him in your life? Can he fit into this world? Or are you asking him to change everything about the life he's built to be able to fit into the

life that you have. Wow, that's so deep. I like, I laughed earlier because I'm sort of like I might that girl because I'm really busy. Yeah, we do that. Number two, I would say, is not having clarity on your goals for the future and then not being aligned in that and being in a different place in your life.

And then the third thing is just limiting beliefs. This belief that I can't meet someone because I'm over forty the dating pool is too small, or all men my age want to date someone younger, or I'm this race and I can I can't meet someone because I'm black, or I can't meet someone because I am a few pounds overweight, or whatever it is. We really internalize these limiting beliefs, and it blocks us from being able to experience the love of the one that is so huge.

How do we change the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves and our circumstances that It's something I'm constantly struggling with. And I spent about eight months in therapy talking to my therapist and working through some of the stories I told myself before I went public with my age, and I told myself that I wasn't datable, I wasn't hirable, and I wasn't affable over a certain age, and the reality at the time is that I was employed, I was in a relationship with all this stories I told

myself around dating over forty we're not true. None of them were true. We do that and we create these paths and patterns in our mind. These are neural pathways confirm what that belief is that you're telling yourself, even though, like you just said, the facts did not support that belief at all. But the more that you told yourself that was true, the more that your brain began to believe it. So what I have people do is to literally rewrite that. I call them broken beliefs, break that

belief and rewrite it. So it starts with even just writing down, what is that incorrect belief that you've been repeating again and again? How often do I repeat that to myself? And then right, what is the inverse of that? Or what is the phrase that you would like to be true or that you have even fifty one percent

belief that might be actually true in the world. And that's that belief is something that I I try to infuse in people that it doesn't you don't have to be on board with with whatever I'm saying, but if you could just believe it's more probable than not to be true. Then you can you can take yourself the rest of the way with work. And then when you are in that situation and you have that limiting belief, come up. I have a transition word that I'll have

my clients like figure out what their transition. For me. It's stop. If I have a limiting belief, I'm repeating I just in my head, I go stop, stop, and then it trains me to reframe it with a more positive phrase and belief system. That then I begin to carve and root out that different belief system in my mind. That you man, I can always give what we want, but we get what we believe, and so we have

to get really clear. I love what you just said because we have to get really clear about what we believe because we are manifesting right now, right this is a good time to take a little break. We'll be right back though, after a little love is thrown to our responsors. Okay, that's taken care of. Let's get back to our chat. So I met my ex when I was forty five years old, and I felt madly, deeply, truly in love with him. It was incredible. I was like head over heels. We dated for two years and

then it didn't work out. It didn't work out, and it was devastating. And I know that there are a lot of women out there, people out there, you know, of all gender identities, particularly in our forties, who probably have had that situation. We've been in love, maybe we've experienced a divorce or some kind of breakup and we thought we had it. But what does one do, because this is real, what does one do when like one has been you know, hopeful about love and it did

work out. Well. I look at every single relationship that you have teaching you something as giving you something. I never look at it as wasted time. And really, when people come to me and it's really raw, like they haven't really processed it like you have, we can't do the kind of work that I do in that space. That's when I say, talk to a therapist, do some self care, and then come back to me when you're ready to actually date, because this is hardcore dating strategy.

This is when you're like, Okay, I'm ready, I've processed this. But I think everything that you learn from that you'll take into the next relationship. And I also like when people tell me oh, I tried online dating it didn't work, or I had a relationship and it didn't work. I said, what it did work. It did work for that time. Tender worked for you for a time, and that relationship, even though you had hoped that it would continue long term, it was the right relationship for you for that time

and for that season. Absolutely, And that's what I tried to first to do, is to give honor to that relationship and the function that it's served in the place that I served in your life at that time. I definitely feel that, and I'm happy that it's over, and being honest, i feel like I'm in a different place and I'm wishing him all the best, of course, just

to get out there again, though. Can you have been on the apps, You've been in a monogamous relationship, and all of a sudden you're back out there and men are doing the same thing they were doing on the ass before, all of the men wanting to send pictures of their privates and all sort of being overly sexualized and all the things that happened to people online, specifically I think women. But just the weariness of it all.

What do you think about that? Because I'm just like I just talked to my girlfriends all the time, and we're constantly talking about like how weary we are. And there's a certain cynicism because we see the same things over and over again with men. And I think too, I always want to be as accountable as possible. If I'm seeing the same thing over and over game, what's my part in it? Am I inviting that same energy? Am I sending it out? That energy out and that's

what I'm getting back? And so for me, it's always a question of, like my personal responsibility, and then what's the stemming What is just agism and sexism and misogyny sort of playing itself out and how men date And none of this is easy. That's the other thing, Like, this is what we're here to do. This is our work, really, And what you said, I know resonates. I'm sure we'll resonate with a lot of your listeners because when when you are dating in your forties, you have past experiences,

you have stuff. I said baggage before, but it's not necessarily baggage. I think it's just your story. And there's the story that you're living, and then there's the story you're telling. Yourself about what that story means. Right, there's how you're interpreting the story. And so I'm curious to

ask you, Laverne. We're gonna turn this into a little bit of a coaching sessh, real quick, what do you feel like you learned from that relationship that you would take into the next relationship now having a year and

a half to reflect on it? Oh so much. I think the biggest thing for me is that true love is possible, like a really and truly reciprocal loving relationship where we're both on the same page, where he is just is in love with me as I am with him, and that I can show every aspect of who I am to a partner and still be loved. That is a beautiful thing that I've taken away from that relationship.

That's amazing. That's really valuable experience. And as far as this idea of I have to go back out and do it again and it's the same old stuff, and it is, but now you have perspective and knowledge that maybe you didn't have three years ago before you begin this process, and so now you're making that into the next relationship. Now you're filtering dates based on that and

to me that possibility is really exciting. And I know that, like you said, it is a bit of a numbers game, but I look at it more as it's a process. I'm always like, what's your plan to meet your man? Right? It's a plan that you're following, and that if you trust the process and you trust the plan that you've made for yourself, that the right relationship will come in

at the right time. Can I also say one of the things I learned from my last relationship is how in my last two relationships is the question of children because I don't want to have kids. I've always been very clear that I don't want to have children. Obviously, people can adopt their surrogus, there is all sorts of ways to have children now, but I don't want to

be a parent. But my last relationship, he was thinking about kids and we met he was twenty eight and I was forty five, and he turned thirty and was like, I really want to have kids, and like, so I get that, I really understand it, but I feel like I want to have a little bit more clarity before I get serious with a man around the question of children. I just don't want to deal with that again, that's

another good learning and it's interesting. I'm seeing a little bit of shift, i would say, in the last five years or so with a lot of my clients that are approaching forty or over forty around kids. Some of them feel a lot of pressure like they are in this rush now all of a sudden, I have to have kids, and now I have to just I'll just pick anybody. And for those I'm like, this is why

we have I v F, we have medical interventions. There are solutions for you to You don't have to just partner with anybody just because you want kids, Like that's this is the most important decision I think you'll ever make the person you're going to spend theoretically the rest of your life with. So it's not a decision to

be taken lightly. And then I'm also seeing a lot of women now who are choosing not to have kids and get actually a lot of pushback from men that either think they're trying to trap them, like oh, you must really want kids, because all women in their thirties and forties want kids. And it's almost like society is just catching up to where we are in terms of our goals and our identity as women, and so there's

gonna be a period I think of dissonance. It's this big pot that we're stirring of people having different desires from the traditional relationship and everyone who grew up with their classical well, you get married and then you have kids having to reframe their thoughts on this and it's a tricky time. So that brings me to another thought um that I have that it's frustrating. I think for a lot of women over forty who might make more

money than their potential partners, that rolls are different. I what I say to my girlfriends a lot that women over the past thirty forty years have really been thinking differently about our role in the world, and we're empowered in ways that we've never been before, which is absolutely beautiful. We understand our power. We're like taking care of ourselves, we make our own money. And I don't see a mass movement of men who are actually along for the

ride with us. And maybe I'm looking in the wrong places or those men just get taken very quickly, but I feel I feel like women are in this incredible place where we are redefining what roles are for ourselves and what the rules are for ourselves. And I know this conversation is very hetero sexist. I'm a woman who dates men, so I'm just that's when when I'm talking about this. So what are your thoughts on men right

now and where they are? I do believe that it is emasculating still for a lot of men when a woman may more money than them. Well, you you just set a mouthful there too. And usually I really like to speak from a place of research that I've seen or clients trends or experiences specifically, and I really I don't have the research to back up what I'm about to say, so I'm just gonna put that out there. I have personally been seeing a shift towards men being

open to redefining roles. But I'll say it's also about the way that you're dating and like the filtering. So in my program I talk about five steps. There's mindset sourcing where you're finding, it's screening and then presentation and follow through. And I find a lot of people get caught up in the mindset and the screening parts. Mindset

is like what am I looking for? What am I bringing to the table, and what do I want what are my goals for the future, what are my values right and and people are just still quite confused on that. Sometimes people will tell me I'll know it when I see it, and I'm like, well, then you're never going to see it, because if you're waiting for it to be presented to you without clarity of what you're looking for,

it's going to just blend into the background. But then as we are screening through dates, I like to have a really clear criteria that you are matching against. And if someone doesn't meet like your core three goals or values, that person is not a match, regardless if they're you know, really cute, they're really good in bed, if they want kids and you don't want kids, it's not a match.

Let's not go down that road. And so like for me, when I was single, I had clarity that I was looking for a man who was going to be a caretaker to my children, and I was looking for a fifty fifty partnership. I was not looking for any traditional gender dynamics that was not for me because I knew I'm going to be making money, I'm going to have my career, I might want to have kids. I assume I'll have kids, but if I do, I'm not going

to be the only one taking care of them. And so when I met my husband, he was broke, he was an aspiring writer, he was trying to make it, but he was the most intelligent man that I had ever met, and he was really caring and he really wanted to be an active partner and have a family that he could also participate in taking care of. And here we sit in the middle of a pandemic and I am here recording with you, and my husband is inside taking care of the kids. This has been our

dynamic for the last ten years. And I think back and I'm like, so grateful that I had that foresight to plan for the partner that I wanted in my life. I think it's really just more about creating a balance and the dynamic that you want when you build out your life. And this is why we visualize. I'll have you placed yourself a year in the future in the arms of that person that you're with, and go through a day in the life of what it would it

be like to be with that person. And when you get that kind of clarity before you go onto the dating apps, because that will challenge every belief and every goal that you have. But when you have that clarity right and you move forward from that place of conviction and clarity, you will meet the person that is best suited for you and that life that you want to build. I love that. That was beautiful, Thank you so much.

I think that clarity about what your core values are, absolutely getting what those three values are and not wavering on those. What are the things we need to let go of? Right? Because for me, I let go of height in my last relationship. I let go of height, and then if he should make more money than me, I'd let go of that a long time ago, especially for women over for it. What are the things we should be letting go of to allow ourselves to open up our dating pool? You got the big two height age.

I also, I've been writing a lot about race. I didn't realize how much, how so many people are really letting race be a factor when they don't live their lives in that way. Like people would say, oh, black lives matter, I'm so woke, right, and then but then they would come to me and check every box on the dating profile. Interested in white Asian I'm speaking of Caucasian people. But I also see this from the black

community as well. They check every box but black or I work with black clients who are like, must must be a black man, it just has to be. And then I start to unpack that with the five wise if you ever heard of this business technique where you start with one why, and then that why leads you to the next why, and the next why and the next why. And as I asked these wise of people, why does he have to be black? Or why can't he be black? And we unpack it, we realize that

biases at the core. But I think there's the thing of like our bias, right, like our implicit biases that we have, and then there's the thing of attraction. What I do know for sure too is I can't make myself be attracted to someone that I'm not. And one of the worst things I can do for myself as a data is to date someone that I'm not attracted to, because then the physical intimacy, it becomes a chore and

it's just awful. So I think getting a clarity around what is biased that we might have, right that our implicit bias or internalized racism if we will, or internalized agism, and then what is just I'm attracted to this person. Yeah, it's just seeing who might come in when you open up the door to a possibility that you had completely blocked out. I do agree with you. Race is different than age, and this is why I was saying earlier that it's about being with somebody who wants the same

things that you do for the future. So I look at four factors of long term compatibility. There is mutual respect, of course, communication and conflict resolution. So there's communication when the times are good, but then a conflict resolution when you run into the bumps in the road and you certainly will. And then the two that I feel our most important predictors of long term compatibility are common goals

for the future and shared values. And those are sometimes the things that are hard to put down on paper. What are my values? My values are to be inclusive

and to be compassionate and understanding. I have these conversations with my husband, who I also consider a feminist, And there was a picture of him when he was like three years old that his mom showed me earlier when we were dating, and it says men of quality respect women's equality, and I was like, yes, this is the guy that I want to be with you from a young age. It's like we are equal. He does not open doors for me. I was because he's like, you

could open the door. How do you feel about that? I'm fine with it. I again, I think that we've just been sold a bill of goods from rom comms and fairy tales, and I just think none of it really applies to our our real lives. I think it's mutual respect. And every time when I look at a relationship that has lasted the test of time, they have those four things, those four pillars that they're on the same page about. That's really what it is. You can make it through anything if you can get on the

same page on those things. But that's the thing with age is the goals for the future. So if you're dating someone that is twenty eight, they might not want the same thing that you do in the future. They might come to the conclusion in two years that they want kids. And inversely, if you're dating someone who's sixty, they might be retired and they might be like, love her, why you work in so much much? We're supposed to go to the Bahamas, you know, that's where the friction

comes in because the lifestyles are not aligned. So I don't look specifically at the numbers, but I look at what is the lifestyle that that person is living and wants to live, and does that align with what you want? Beautiful? Beautiful. It's time for a short break and we come back more with our guest, and of course what else is true? Oh, I'm loving where this conversation is going without further ado.

But I think about that woman out there who may be fat or might be not attractive by conventional standards, and it's really struggling with love. And so the space of knowing real love becomes really difficult because we don't fit into a lot of men's idea of what they think they want. People who don't fit into that idea of the perfect mate and is struggling with even like wanting to put themselves out there. What would you say

to them around the search for love? Yeah, it's funny that you said that, because as you were talking, I was actually remembering my own experience. And I've been up and down the scale many times. I joke, I've lost the same ten pounds twenty times, and so I can actually relate because one of the things that was so frustrating for me about dating before online dating was I didn't feel attractive. I go out with my girlfriends and I would be the last one to get a phone

number or get asked to dance or whatever. And that was really that did a number on me for a long time, because I was like, I feel like I look all right, but I guess in this dating pool, this isn't what these people are looking for. And I think it was that ability to say, this is not my pool, this is not my pool of people. And some of that is spying into that belief system and knowing that you're going to find your people. If you keep going, you're going to find your people, and we're

going for quality over quantity. That is another thing that a lot of women, especially women over forty, get caught up with because they're like, well, in my twenties, I had all of these guys, but now I'm in my forties, it feels like nothing's happening. And that's because not all of those people are going to be for you. Yes, the dating pool does does change, but we're only looking for one and I'm speaking to people who are looking

for monogamy. That's most of my audience. So that said, there is a person out there for you, and if you're not feeling the love that person, I have this thank and release strategy like Marie Condo. I I say, Okay, that person wasn't for me. I thank them for whatever it was that brought them to me, and I released

them back into the wild. And then I focus my attention on what what do I really want and finding somebody who is going to align with that, because we can get really off track thinking about all of the what if should have beens that person that fetishized us, or that dissed us or whatever. But don't give the energy to those people you're feeling exhausted because you're giving an energy, save it. Conserve the energy for the people who are going to be appreciative of all the things.

And I have also found love for women of all different body types. And I know that men men are looking for women of all shapes and sizes, and I find that women are so much harder on ourselves and our bodies. And I say this speaking also from my own experience. So many times I'm just like, oh, I think it's so bad, and this I can't wear that, and my husband is like, I don't even see that. Someone told me this this phrase many years ago. Don't

yuck somebody else's yum. It's like the food. If you're eating food with somebody and then you're like, oh, girls, I can't believe. Like I hate avocado. I can't believe you love avocado. It's disgusting. But I say the same thing with dating. If I'm like, oh, my body looks terrible, I can't believe anybody would find as attractive. How is he going to get excited looking at my body if he thinks that you think your body is undateable or unattractive.

So it starts always with our relationship to ourselves, with anything, particularly love and dating that I need to feel enough and being okay alone. I found it has been really crucial to being able to be partnered with someone else and then need to even date. You said something about monogamy and the one. Do you believe in the concept of the one and that one soulmate who's going to hate complete as? Obviously I don't believe in another human

being completing me. But what are your thoughts on soulmates and the concept of the one? Know? I don't think there's no one. I think there are a lot of ones. And this concept of finding the one, it's funny. I just did on Instagram survey on this and sev the people said they do believe in the one, They do believe in soulmates, and I think it keeps a lot of people single because you're like the grass is always greener, this person is good, but could there be something better?

Because this person feels like a good match. But are they my soul mate? Are they the one? And if you broaden out, you're thinking to any of these people could be possible matches, then you're not searching for a needle in a haystack. And then I feel that that gives you the hope to be able to keep going. And you said something that I think is really really key, um, because if we hear a lot about self love, love yourself, and I feel like everybody now is like, wait, what

does that even mean? But you said it it's like being alone and being okay. And I had to go through this this journey myself as well. I I remember I was feeling my time and I know a lot of your listeners can relate to this. I had every inch of my schedule blocked, and my coach said, I want you to block out time for yourself the same way that you would give time to another person or another job. Block out that time and treat that like

that is golden. You cannot cancel on yourself. Then when the more that I started planning that solo time, the more I started to look forward to that solo time, and then I started to figure out what do I enjoy doing apart from someone else, Because if you're going from relationship to the relationship, you know what you used

to do with them, what they liked to do. But do you really know do you really know what makes you feel fulfilled, what makes you feel calm, what what you truly enjoy And a lot of people need to go on that journey of self discovery to get to that place that you just said that you're at, like being comfortable knowing that you're alone and that's okay because you have yourself. I think the one thing I want to say about self love is that it's about for me.

It's about how I treat myself and what I say to myself about myself. Because I'm so addicted to negative self talk. I'm so addicted to the you. I look fat, I look ugly, I look all this that I say subconsciously and don't even realize I'm saying to myself. And that is something that I do imperfectly on a daily basis, but it is when I can do it, it is

really really beautiful work, really beautiful work. So one other thing I want to ask you before my last question, and that is the online piece, right, because if you're dating at any age, I think I've always told people if you want to be in the dating game, you have to be on the apps. But I think with apps there's so many options, Like it's hard to commit to one person when there's another person to swipe away.

And there's the fatigue of it all, right, of constantly swiping because I match with so many men who never even message me even though I mrs First, I've been doing that for a minute. Is their way to mitigate that or navigate that? What? What? Girl? Help? Because it's exhausting. Yes, the fatigue can be overwhelming if you don't have a process around it, right. So I have my clients actually block in the time, like this is how many hours I'm going to devote to swiping, and I like to

have my clients on two apps at a time. I find that more than two at a time can be a little bit overwhelming to manage all of the communication coming in, and less than two doesn't give you the best chance at success. Thank you for saying that we should be on the apps, because this is a daily fight that I have with people who have this fantasy of but that's not the story that I want to tell my friends. I'm not going I don't see me

meeting my person on a dating app. And I'm like, well, then, how do you see in today's world, especially in a pandemic, how do you think it's going to happen. It's just the most efficient way for most people to date. And I have tons of other strategies which we will not have time to get into today of how you can meet someone I r L or online, but off of the dating app specifically. But the reality is there's so

much more labor intensive. So you think you're exhausted now on the dating apps, honey, let me tell you about the other things and then you'll be like running back to the dating app, but just to really put some

framework around it for yourself. So I'm going to do this app for a month, and I find that between four and six weeks is when the dating app options tend to wane, and that's when people start to get anxious and frustrated because they feel like, oh, now I've done all this work and I'm down to the bottom

of the barrel. You then cycle in your second app, and you pull back on your first app, so it always feels like you have a pool of new matches and it always feels like something is happening, and then you can cycle back to the first one once you've done four to six weeks on that other. So usually by that time, most of my clients are in relationships within three months when they date with this kind of

clarity and purpose. But if you get to that three month point and you're like, I'm just exhausted and I've cycled did what Tamona said, I cycled through the apps. There's nobody out here. Just take a break, take two to four weeks. Take a break. I'm going to work on myself. I'm going to get comfortable in my solo hood, and then I might think about going back on the app in a month and give yourself a time that you'll go back to it, because that's the other thing.

People push the whole thing away and they say, oh, I'm too overwhelmed. I'm just not going to do it, and then you find yourself six months later going, wait a minute, I could have been in a relationship by now, I could have been going on dates, but I just I got so overwhelmed that I pushed the whole thing away. And that's not a place that I want anybody to

get to. Wow. Wow. So having a really clear process around, a plan around the apps can help mitigate some of that exhaust and some of that Like, it's very overwhelming at times. For sure, I've definitely experienced that myself. Wow, demon a girl, you have like given me so much to think about and hopefully given so many of our listeners out there so much to think about. I like

to end with this question, what else is true? And this question comes from both and this right in a world where things can be very, very challenging, I think it's been really great to be able to focus on what is neutral and positive in my life. So for you, right now, at this moment and these these most challenging of times, what else is true for you? MM? Hmm. Wow,

that is such. That is such a good question, And I really love this idea of duality, right, that you can hold two things that are on the surface opposing at the same time. So I would say it is true that I appreciating being quarantined with my family and at the same time ready for this to end. I feel like I've learned so much about my kids and my husband and I have really clarified our communication during this time, and that has been so valuable, and I

don't see it ending anytime soon. But I really like to look for the silver lining. Yeah, this is the most awful thing that is ever going to happen to us in our lifetimes, I think for most of us, and we're gonna be okay. Like when something I don't want to have happen happens, I say, where is the lesson here? And sometimes it doesn't reveal itself immediately, but in time it usually does, and I know that I'm the better and the stronger for having gone through it. Absolutely.

Thank you so much, Demona Hoffman. That way, it's incredible you can find Ammona on her own podcast dates and mates. Where else can folks find your Demona I'm on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook at Demona Hoffman and also at dates and mates dot com and I have some free goodies there for your listeners if they go check out the podcast and they can get their online dating life in order as well. Amazing. Thank you so much, Demona Hoffman, you are incredible. Thank you,

Thank you, Laverne. Demona gave us so very much to think about, so many tools, and I think that's all

really really useful. I think where I'm at now is that when I go back out there into dating land, into app land, that I want to make sure that I do it from a place of worthiness and I am worthy of connection and belonging, that I'm worthy of love, and that I am lovable, and that I spreads the deepest love towards myself, because, as RuPaul reminds us, how the hell you go and love somebody else if you don't love yourself. So good luck on your search for love.

Thank you for listening to the Laverne Cox Show. If you like what you here, please rate, review, subscribe, and share with everyone you know. Next week, we'll be talking with author and fat activist Virgie Tobar about fat phobia and diet culture. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in the love. The Laverne Cox Show is a production of Shondaland Audio in

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