S3 Ep2 - Pete Wharmby

And the next generation. We would love to watch the colour. So that not only

Okay, so thank you Pete for coming on the podcast in season three. And whilst this podcast is to give autistic women and marginalised genders a voice, it's also really important that we hear as many late skilled voices and perspectives. on the autistic experience. And I want to explore your late discovery uh with you, Pete. And we tried to get you on in season two and it didn't happen. So here you are in in season three. So I'm really, really honoured that you're you're here talking to us today.

It was back in twenty seventeen, wasn't it, when you were thirty-four that you were diagnosed autistic. So I thought that's probably a good place to start for you to take us back to that time and really think about what the what the trigger points were for you. We sometimes talk about light bulb moments. ond yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r Yeah, yeah, th there were a number of very distinct kind of moments, I suppose, in the kind

The mid 2010s, um, where where I started to realize that there was something something going on there. I very nearly said something not quite right. To stop myself because, you know, how ableist is that? So uh yeah, it's not the case that there wasn't something right, but certainly there was something not going the way that I expected. Um and I I feel like the the real catalyst for it all, as is so often the case for so many was becoming a pair.

I I feel like the experience of being a parent for the first time, you know, usually, um i is very frequently one that leads to these kind of realizations. I mean, to be perfectly honest, having a child can lead to a diagnosis of autism in lots and lots of different ways. There are so many kind of different pipelines that that can be in in effect there. You know, you've got you've got people who are diagnosed because their child is diagnosed.

you've got people who are diagnosed because um you know they start to struggle as their child gets older and start to realize there's something going on there. I I had that realization pretty much immediately. Um the the the moment that My daughter was born. I just completely collapsed.

And obviously at the time I just blamed myself and just thought I'm just being feeble, you know, I'm not supporting uh her mum enough. Um, I like what what's wrong with me? You know, how dare I do this? You know. I'm needed, I'm very much needed here. So so I I tried to swallow those thoughts down and just try to survive as best as I could, even though I knew that there was something severely wrong with um with the situation. You know, I I I could I could tell that I was I was

falling apart. I really was. I was falling apart. Um now I look back, I know exactly what was happening. You know, you know, with with with all my years experience now of looking into autism and understanding autism. Writing about autism, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I know that what was happening was um burnout for a start. but also a reaction to the total destruction of my world. You know, my my very carefully

Routined, planned-out world that I'd done subconsciously. You know, I I didn't know I was autistic, so I certainly didn't know that I was doing it for that. Um, I I guess I thought that's what everyone did, that everyone had a very particular way of getting through their day. And that helped me survive for a long time. Um and and even to an extent thrive. But then bang, all of that gone, just totally. Every aspect of my own.

Daily routine no longer existed, and in its place was something completely new, something very, very scary, something where the stakes were very high, and I felt that deeply. Um and I wasn't You know, to be perfectly honest with you, I I wasn't equal to it. Um, not not without knowing what the reason

So um yeah, I was I was depressed. I was signed off work for a long time, um, for longer than I would have liked. And you were a teacher. You were a teacher, weren't you, at the time? Yes, yeah. I'm being signed. I mean being signed off when you're a teacher is relatively common. I think it's fair to say. In all my years of t I mean, I was teaching for fifteen years and there was always somebody in the school, you know, who was off long term sick. You know, th that that was a a fairly

um clear pattern. You know, the the the the nature of the job means that there will frequently be somebody or more than one person who's out for a prolonged period and months, uh six months perhaps. Um but Equally, it's the most terrible job. Because if you are off sick for a prolonged period. the amount of guilt you feel because you're basically abandoning

You feel like you're abandoning the children that you teach, you know, your classes that you've been allocated for that year. You feel like you're abandoning them, that you're you're a failure, that you're you're I still I still think very very badly of that time. You know, I still to this day, nearly ten years later, sometimes think, oh my word, you know, that that poor GCSE group or that that A-level group that I just vanished from.

You know, without them understanding why, you know, in like, I don't know when it would have been. No, early twenty sixteen. I feel dreadful about it.

And all that compounds though, doesn't it? At a time when you're feeling when you're, you know, as you described, when you're falling apart and you've hit burnout and yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. Add in all the guilt then that you feel for, as you've described, abandoning your your students. And you've got a recipe there, haven't you, for a point in your life when there's no wonder you felt like you were falling apart.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, the the compounding effect is strong. And and we and we know that autistic people are prone to uh lots and lots of self-guilt, lots and lots of self-doubt. um very low self esteem uh and so on and so forth. And all of this fed into this whirlpool dragging Um on top of that, of course, no one understood, not even myself, what on earth was going on. I thought it was postpartum depression, you know, the the the the father's equivalent.

Which in all honesty is not viewed in the same way. And and I can understand that to an extent. You know, I know that post postnatal depression for for the mother can be absolutely devastating. You know, my mum had that with me. Which has always been a bit of a joke, you know, who can blame her? Um given it was me. But um but I I know how how terrible that can be and how difficult that can be. So I I I I I I chalked it up to that.

But simultaneously felt very guilty again that I was like, I'm not sure. that that was the case, you know, like again, how dare I? You know, I'm not the one that just gave birth. I'm not the one whose whose body has been working overtime for, you know, nine months. I I'm not the one who's who's nursing, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. You know, felt really Really bad about all of them.

Um, and yeah, there was no recovery possible in in those circumstances because I didn't know what I was dealing with. I thought it was depression. My doctors thought it was depression. Um but as as we now know, the actual the way that you should treat autistic burnout is not the way that you might treat. You know, autistic burnout doesn't necessarily repeat. um require medication. It just requires rest.

you know, and and recuperation and rebuilding and time to yourself. And I mean medication might help if there are co-occurring depressions and anxieties, but Um, if you think it's just depression and you're prescribing antidepressants and you're encouraging people to, oh, go out and challenge yourself, you know, go and push yourself a bit harder, don't let yourself get wrapped in your head, don't just lie in bed all day, that will do you no good at all.

That's not great because actually with burnout, maybe you do need to lie in bed. You know, maybe you don't want to push yourself to socialize. Um that

And if you put burnout with having a baby and becoming a parent for the first time, all of those things that ac yn ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw Low arousal environment, don't you? You know, can I jump up with a baby? My word, no. Goodness me, no. And and you know, I I now know, for example, that my big sensory triggers are sound related, um, smell related, and touch related.

So it's like, yeah, let's have a baby, that'll work. Um, because you know, my my daughter, bless her, at that age was a a crier, you know, she really was. She wasn't a sleeper. I mean, she she she's almost certainly autistic, so she had those issues with sleep that so many kids and adults have. Um she was very loud. She was, you know, th th there's the whole

bodily function thing, which I found very difficult, even though I did do the majority of the nappies, it was a real struggle. Um and yeah, there was no downtime. There was no low arousal environment whatsoever. It was a very Hyper aroused state that we were kind of living in in the house for the whole time. Um, so yeah, my chance of recovery were zero.

We don't we don't talk enough about that though, do we, about um sleep. And you know, think about so for you, Pete, in this carefully constructed world that you'd created for yourself re becoming a parent. ac mae'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n.

Over time, you know, that period that most parents who are parenting children who aren't autistic go through a that go through quite a A a short lived period, don't they, where, you know, eventually the child starts to sleep and they settle into a routine. Rydyn ni'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw.

Rydyn ni'n gweithio, ac rydych chi'n gweithio, ac rydych chi'n gweithio, ac rydych chi'n gweithio, ac rydych chi'n gweithio, ac rydych chi'n gweithio, ac rydych chi'n gweithio, ac rydych chi'n gweithio, ac rydych chi'n gweithio. Everything becomes so much louder, doesn't it? Everything becomes so much harder to cope with.

Um, and I don't think we talk enough about that, especially from from a dad's experience. I think we don't talk enough about the the you know, the mum's experience, but certainly I don't see anywhere, anybody talking about the the the father's experience of of what that's like. No, I can't think of anything at all, uh, fr th that's from that perspective, which is One of the reasons why I'm currently working on the project that I'm working Yeah, focused on the right.

It's mo mostly education, but there's gonna be quite a lot of parenting thrown in as well. Um, yeah, because it it it's it's a difficult one because, you know, we we don't wanna take the airtime away from the the very real need that autistic

parents and autistic mums need, you know, there is very real need that especially when you think about things like not being diagnosed, being underdiagnosed, being misdiagnosed as well. Very common thing for for um you know autistic mums, autistic women gener general. We don't want to take airtime away from that, but but equally, you know, we can't just ignore the the autistic dads, you know, who are who are doing their best and struggling. You know, there has to be

There has to be something for them too. So but but you're right. Yeah, there is a there that there's nothing that I can think of. There probably is something, you know, there's a there's a wealth of, you know, self-published books out there and all kinds of things. But when I look at the mainstream kind of literary offer that's out there, I can't think of any

And uh and that of course slowed down my diagnosis because I didn't have anything that I could, you know, read. I I I was reading parenting books. I was reading books about how to be a good father and they just made me feel drum tremendously guilty. Um I was reading books about depression and how to try to recover from that.

I wasn't reading books about burnout because they didn't exist. Um and I wasn't reading books about autism because I didn't s I didn't realise that was that was a thing that could be be a a part of my life because my understanding of autism at that time, you know, certainly before I started to look into it more closely, was heavily based on the training that we got as teachers. Which is to say, nothing. Um, you know, just just kind of general mythologies around

having no empathy, having no sense of humor, um, you know, just behaving in a very odd way all the time. They were the they were the myths that perpetrated even in the 2010s for me as a teacher. And of course, I know that I have a lot of empathy. I I know that I have a sense of humor. It's one of the biggest parts of my life. You know, I I love laughing and I love making people laugh. Um I know that

I mask well enough to not appear to be particularly different in any particular way. Um, so the idea of being autistic based on my understanding of the of the term was it didn't even occur, you know, it just didn't There there were parts of it that I empathize with and recognize. You know, the the little bits that I'd learned about special interests, for example, did chime, they did ring true, but it wasn't enough for me to think, oh well, you know, that must be the case.

Um I had to really delve into uh the the the world of it to really start to figure it out and and I remember one of the first things I did was filled in one of those online questionnaires, you know, that come up. If you type in am I autistic onto Google, the first thing that comes up are thousands upon thousands of of online tests. And some of them are dodgy as, you know, they are really not.

Good. But there are a few hidden away there that are actually basically the ones that psychiatrists use to diagnose you. You know, they're just you know, like oh, I can't even remember what it's called, like the AQ, you know, the or the the quotient test and things like that. I can never remember their name. Um, and and I think I stumbled across a few of those'cause I remembered then doing them again in the process of diagnosis and thinking, hang on, I've done these before.

But I did these online tests, like every single one of them was like screaming at me. Like, you know, the the anecdote I always tell is that the I think the threshold score on one of them was something like

30, perhaps. I d I don't re I mean it was a long time ago now. I think it was something like if you score over thirty, or it might have been eighteen, it was a relatively low number. If you score over that, then you might want to consider talking to a doctor, you know, you might want to think about uh progressing with that because that that would be indicative of of certainly having you know sufficient traits for a diagnosis to be plausible. Um and I scored 70 plus.

on this on this test. And uh you know, I almost imagine like the computer starting to beep at me, like a little alarm guy. What I'm seeing in my head actually is like, yeah, alarm bells. Get yourself quick quick, quick, go to the doc. Call 999. Get to the doctors immediately. Um and that was a real wake-up call, because I thought, wow, okay. So first of all, that happened. And secondly, maybe autism isn't what I thought.

And that I think is probably the bigger thing, you know, realising oh, how much nonsense there is, how little people understand about it, how to the point, you know, where people who are autistic themselves know so little about it that they can't identify.

Yeah. That shouldn't be. That shouldn't be the case. Autism is widespread enough. that it should be the case that it's reported well enough in the media and accurately enough in the media. with representation via autistic actors playing autistic parts in T V shows and films and in books and in video games, that anyone who's autistic should be able to, you know Find representation, think oh my maybe that's me. But we do not live in that world, there's nothing else.

Um, certainly wasn't back then. If you wanted to find that stuff you had to seek it out. You had to get online and find the communities and find the good stuff, you know, the real the quality writing and the quality videos, you know, people like um who you know, like Yosamadi Sam and Purple Ella and, you know, people who back then were were leading the way of of of of communicating about this stuff.

you know, reading books like Neuro Tribes, um, books like Odd Girl Out, you know, those those earlier kind of, you know, here's what autism actually is text that existed back in, you know, twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. Um But but we you know, we're we're still not in a situation where autistic people can recognise themselves because you could watch T V all day, every day for for a whole year.

And the only info you're gonna get about autism will be very, very you know, it'll be very limited, it'll be very specific, you know, like like one of those dating shows, for example, which I don't think provide a particularly good overview of what it is to be neurodivergent.

So w th th there's nothing out there. We have to get kind of lucky, if that makes sense, to to even self-dire. Ha ha. And even and even when you get to a point where you do self-identify, you're then still invalidated because there's lots of people out there who who will say, Well, you can't possibly self-identify unless you get a diagnosis. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw.

People have very strong views on that, and you know, I I come from the position where self-identification is a hundred percent valid because. It has to be. Well it does. What choice have we done? How can anybody else know what your internal experience is of being autistic and and what do you do if you can't access the diagnosis on the NHS?

If you are having to pursue a private diagnosis, very often you're at a point in midlife where you're perhaps having to pay for private diagnosis for your child. You've perhaps come out of the workplace because you've hit burnout. So you've got lots of financial barriers. So for then for people to then say, Well, I'm sorry, but you are not a proper autistic human being if you don't have a psychologist or a psychiatrist who has said yeah.

based on what you've given me,'cause there's no there's no blood test. There's no uh you know, there's no testing. They're taking your experiences and fitting it into the DSM criteria. And I think that's what people, I really want people to understand about that, that, you know, please don't invalidate self-identified autistic people um because there's so many reasons why we can't access the diagnosis and not only that you know we have autonomy and personal choice here

Some people genuinely choose to self identify. They discover enough about themselves and for them getting the diagnosis is not going to change anything. You know, maybe they're self employed, maybe they are retired, maybe They're not looking for uh a diagnosis that can support them in seeking out adjustments in the workplace or healthcare support. And I think we just need to have a much wider broader perspective of self-identification.

Absolutely. You know, your your being autistic doesn't go away just because you haven't got a bit of paper saying you are. You know, that that's the that's the ridiculous nature of it all. Um the fact of the matter is that an adult isn't even going to get the opportunity to have an official diagnosis if they don't self-diagnose first.

Th there's no mechanism whereby somebody in their thirties who doesn't have any co-occurring conditions like a learning disability or something that might require them to be, you know, in hospital a lot or you know in in inpatient care a lot, for example.

Um, there is there's not really any mechanism whereby that person is going to get diagnosed without having to realize it about themselves first. I mean, you know, you don't just your doctor isn't just gonna bring it up, especially because their knowledge of autism is probably very poor.

Um it's it's it is it it's fueled by a a a a completely overwrought fear of people face You know, uh and that's what really makes me very upset because I think that yes, there are problems. the vast you know, many, many times more people from being able to self-diagnose is is just is just ridiculous. You know, that the the the the punishment doesn't out you know that that that is not a uh

a a reasonable reaction to to that to that reality. Um it's like, you know, saying, well, we can't we shouldn't have any any benefits at all because a couple of people commit benefit fraud. You know? That that that to me is just a a ludicrous overreaction. Um, but that's what we come across all the time. And that's I mean, even when you have a diagnosis, you're still gonna come across people who claim that you're not.

You know, I I uh there are a couple of people in th in this world of ours that that seem to be absolutely hell bent, for example, on trying to prove that I'm not autistic. I don't know why. Um they've just got it into their heads and um, you know It's I I'm not the only one either, you know, and and I'm actually quite unusual in that'cause I'm a I'm a man, you know, and usually men are kind of left alone in this. It's it's autistic women.

You know, people who are absolutely certain you can't be you know, you're a woman, that that's not how it works. Extreme male brain is a thing, blah blah blah blah blah you know, and and and just constant It's all right. And I think I think uh the platform X, formerly known as Twitter, um is one of those platforms where that seems to be right and hence why we are as a late school club and no longer on that platform because that's just

such extreme views on autism on there. And a lot of it comes from I know I we get a lot of direct messages from parents of autistic children who will say You as late discovered autistic women, if you've got to this point in your life, you cannot possibly be autistic. You can possibly not have any support needs or any needs. And by you all coming out and sharing your story, yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

You don't look like my child. You can't possibly have written a book or host a podcast or do all of these things if you're autistic. It becomes it becomes a really invalidating, tiresome place to be. And you know that you're never gonna be able to um People who have those views are never going to be able to see things from your perspective or be open to something else.

And you get to a point, don't you, Pete, where you've got to focus on focus on the things that you can do and creating the spaces that that you need to. But unfortunately, that is the world in which we live.

they want to try and you know Mae'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid I mean honest to be perfectly blunt, it's it's horrific. It really is absolutely horrific to have your your reality. And so ignorantly, you know, based on so little And based on a an understanding of what autism is that is very limited and very flawed and very old.

You know, the world has moved on. It Yeah, it's it's it's caused me problems. You know, mental it has caused me mental health problems in the past. It's one of the reasons that I don't use social media in the way that I used to, because I I I can't stomach it, you know. Um I I can't handle that kind of feet. It's so intrusive and painful. Um, but but but it's not so much that. It what really gets to me and what sticks in my head is is what the person's thinking.

Because I would never do that to somebody else, you know? I I would never I would never And I just get into this kind of feedback loop in my head and I get like this whenever I see any kind of that behavior going on on social media because even as just an observer you sometimes see it happening to other people you know and you're just thinking, oh my God, you know, why are these people doing this? Like what are they gaining from

from from this kind of vindictive kind of behaviour uh targeting somebody. Um it it's it's just really depressing. It's incredibly depressing to realise

And I d I try not to think about it. I try not to let But um but you're right, yeah, that those kind of those messages how you cannot be autistic because you don't match my particular view of what autism is. I I don't imagine being able to do that with anything else. Like I don't know how how you like I wouldn't say to somebody well, you know, you you can't possibly be um you can't possibly be A vegan, for example, because you don't particularly match my view of what a vegan looks like.

Or something like that, it it would be ludicrous. You know, it would be a really weird thing to say to somebody. And yet there are people out there with a straight face saying, You cannot be autistic because you have done this, this, and this, or even you look like this, this or this. You know, the most common one being, of course, and I think we've all experienced something like You don't you're nothing like

Or you're nothing like my son and it's always a male relative. I've noticed that. It's always a male relative. That they use as a kind of evidence. My I I think often it's a conflation and a misunderstanding of what autism is in terms of its relationship with learning disabilities. I think very frequently and I remember that um Lyric Riviera, you know, Neurodivergent Rebel did a really good poem.

about this fairly recently. Um, about how So frequently, autistic people's negative experiences with this are based around people who see us and expect to learn. And as that isn't apparent, therefore decide the right. And it just totally misses what all You know, autism in itself is not a learning disability. It simply isn't. I don't know, I don't know what else to say about that. It it just isn't. That isn't controversial. That's just a fact. Um, and not all autistic people have a co-occurring.

A number do, obviously, and Mm-hmm. should be in place for any individual who needs it. But there is a large number of autistic people who don't have a learning disability who still need to be seen and heard. And accept it and who still need support of varying levels depending on their situation. And we can't just What what what do we do? What do we just ignore them because you know because they don't match this preconceived notion?

it is a very very tense Difficult environment. um that exists out there in the in the online you know, around this. And and I feel tremendously for any newly diagnosed Or self diagnosed people. who who wander into this space without knowing that this is a whole thing that they are gonna have to deal with. You know, it uh it could because it's really scary when you

Because people are so angry, they're so furious. And I think that they're they're they're pushing all of their re reasonable anger that they have. In my opinion, perfectly fair enough, you know, that anger deserves to exist. But they're they're their laser beam. people who don't deserve it, you know, who who have done nothing wrong. Um but who end up, you know, the the brunt of of of what can be very personal and very And and hence why the late discovered club exists because

It it's a very individual experience, isn't it? Being late discovered and having this discovery later on in life. And I think, you know, as you've described, um Very well there, Pete, in as as to why we get to this point in our lives and we don't have this discovery about ourselves because we don't fit the stereotype because

Um, we perhaps don't have a learning um disability or a learning difficulty that we've not been picked up earlier in life. But what you see in so many of the stories that we explore here on the podcast. Is a lifetime of struggles, of misdiagnosis, of um continued burnout, of crashing out of the workplace, very often in your 30s, early 40s.

I I'm interested because you're you're you're a speaker on on autism, aren't you? You you've authored two books on autistic experience, What I Want to Talk About and Untypical and Um You're also a fellow trainer like I am on the um NHS National Autism Trainer Programme. Yes. And I'm I'm really interested, Pete, how you have But I'm also interested in how you have nurtured your autistic strengths. to create this this career for yourself that um you know since you're discovering

Yeah, it was all very accidental, you know, it really was. It it it it started By trying to make sense of the diagnosis after it happened. I I I was I wrote a blog during You know, I I I I wanted to get that information out. um and and just talk about it because it was a way of trying to kind of get my head around it. You know, just kind of writing it down on paper and I thought, well, I may as well write it on the internet, you know, so people can read it and give me feedback.

Maybe agree or disagree or whatever. So that's where it already started. I had this blog, and the blog still exists, but no one really goes. A wasteland, you know, a quiet wasteland on the internet. Um and then I started on Twitter, of course. They are yes, yeah. We've moved we've moved on now. You know, it's all it's all videos and short clips and all that.

But um I started tweeting. I already had a Twitter account. You know, I had a Twitter account for years because I was I was part of what they called education Twitter, you know, just this this mass of people online who were teachers who were all tweeting um about about their experiences and that was a really big thing and it was a bit of a culture in and of itself. But then I started tweeting tweeting about my autistic experience. And

And what I found and what surprised me, I j I genuinely did not expect this, what I found was that people really liked the way that I explained things. It just seemed to strike a nerve. Um or clear something up for people. So, you know, p it's just started to grow from there. You know, my my tweets would would would spread around, you know, the Twitterverse and people would would read them. My follow account increase. Interactions and all that stuff went up and up and up.

Um and I just carried on. You know, I I I I I I just I just wanted to kind of get it all off my chest and and to find like-minded people and to try and try and make sense of what was going on. Um, and what became apparent, and I still don't really understand this because I have basically no self confidence. all. Um but what basically happened was it became very clear to me that there was something about the way that I wrote. Yeah.

Um I didn't know what it was and I still don't really know what it is. Um I I do it and I I write the way that I write and and I can do that because I know how I write, but I still don't really get

ramifications or the or the the the the reasons why people like it. But fair Um so I just did more and more and and I I leaned into that um into that clarity of explanation which I think I somehow of explaining what could be very complex issues in a relative Easy, straightforward way. And I don't know whether that's an autistic thing, if I'm honest with you. I know that hyperlepia.

I'm I I know that you know the the the idea of hyperlexia is a very big thing in terms of neurodivergency, could be related to autism, could be related to ADHD, but I think it's fair to say that I have elements of that. I can think on the fly very quickly. I can formulate sentences even in fast-paced conversations very quickly, which isn't necessarily always something that autistic people can do.

But like I say, I don't know w exactly where that slots into things in terms of um in terms of neurodivergency. It feels to me often more of an ADH You know, especially my very Underprepared stuff. Yeah. And that co-occurrence between autism and ADHD, there's a figure of about 40 per cent, isn't there, of ADHD co-occurring with autism, and we see that a lot. There's a lot of people who have come on this podcast.

sydd wedi cael eu bod yn ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw Okay, it's interesting you you touching on that and and how that's helped you in in this second career that you've created for yourself. Yeah. So how how has that helped you then, Pete, in terms of creating this environment? Because before we pressed record this morning.

We were talking, weren't we, about um putting things in our diaries and then having to cancel things because at the point that we put them in our diary we feel that we can do it and then all of a sudden you look at your diary and you think there's just no way if I'm gonna do all of this. then I'm gonna need I'm gonna need time before, I'm gonna need time after. Um I I I can't do this. And this sense of

creating a working environment that works for you. So what what have you done then to help you come home to yourself to because you've gone from a a very structured, very probably very high arousal in century terms, working environment in a school. To now working as a speaker, as an author, as a trainer, and really niching that into the autistic experience. So what have you done, Pete, to accommodate yourself in your new working world?

I I've very much had to lean into the fact and just accept the fact about myself that I work best in very short energetic chunks. And that definitely is. Um For a long, long time I couldn't accept that about myself and it really frustrated me. It made me really angry with myself that I couldn't.

that I couldn't, you know, just kind of settle down um and and just, you know, crack on with something for a long period. And that of course is something that many autistic people report, you know, that that they they can settle down. I mean that's that's what hyperfo And I can do it. I can, but only when my I don't know if you want to call it like my ADHD side is.

not paying attention or asleep or something. At those times I can, you know, really get engrossed in something for a, you know, frighteningly long time without ADHD kind of going, hang on, come on, something else now. I'm bored, board, board, board. Um, but it doesn't happen frequently and and it definitely didn't tend to happen with work related stuff, which I would typically find quite onerous and you know, this isn't

tickling my the the itching my brain well enough, you know, for for the ADHD not to kick in and say, no, enough of this. So for me, things like marking work was a nightmare because marking schoolwork is one of those tasks where you really have to sit down and just slog. And I just couldn't do it. You know, I used to do exam marking where you get like a thousand scripts delivered to your door.

And I would want to just kind of do what my dad did or what other markers did who I knew where they would kind of sit down for two hours in the morning and just get a load done. You know, get it out of the way, get on with it. I'd find myself having to do little ten minute birth.

throughout the whole day, usually in a bit of a panic, usually thinking, oh my word, I haven't done enough today quick. I'll just have to slot another 10 minutes in after dinner or before I go to bed or you know, really stressful, really stressful stuff. Um, what I've done what I have now in my life, I guess, is is a situation whereby my work naturally falls. Short bursts of activity. You know, if I do a talk for a for a company or for a school, it's typically o only for about an hour.

or lie down. And even better, I can often do it like this on on a computer. You know, often I'm not even having to travel anywhere. I'm just doing it in my attic, surrounded by my things. And straight afterwards I can go for a nice walk or do any of my self-care things that I do. Uh and I've really leaned into that. You know, so like w w about diaries, for example, yeah, unless it's a very busy time of year, like, you know, Neurodivergence uh celebration week in a couple of weeks.

I give myself one thing a day tops. You know, I'm not gonna squeeze in more than one thing a day unless I really Um, and I I mean I I I'm very lucky that I can do that, don't get me wrong, but it it's a way of existing that that allows me to actually survive.

And to cope. Yeah, and I think hearing you describe it as a way of existing that enables me to survive and cope, again. These are the things that people don't see from the outside, do they? They don't see how how you're able to write a book, how you're able to go and speak, and the impact that that then has.

And how very often, particularly through burnout and trying to prevent burnout or manage burnout, um, our worlds have to become smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. It's like every experience. you've got to take something, you've got to detract something away. ac yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw.

Mae'n cydweithio, mae'n cydweithio, mae'n cydweithio, mae'n cydweithio, mae'n cydweithio, mae'n cydweithio. I think you do the camp. Do you do camps? Do you do children? I I do a bit of everything. I do the cams and the adults. Yeah. I haven't done the the legal one yet, but um it's probably only a matter of time.

Yeah, but there's a recording of you in the uh adult community and I was delivering it this week actually. And um there's a recording of you talking about autistic joy and talking about interest. And what is it about your passions, your interests? What what what are they? And how do you how do you incorporate those in your life?

I suppose to balance out what you were talking about the existing and the survival, you've you've got these passions and interests then that you can immerse yourself in that that perhaps balance some of that out. They they they do, they do. I I think it's one of the things that everyone needs to understand about autistic you know, children and adults, is the regulatory nature of the earth. Yn ymwneud hynny'n cael ei wneud. Yn ymwneud hynny'n cael ei wneud. Yn ymwneud hynny'n cael ei wneud.

just a a way of having fun, you know. And that don't don't get me wrong, I mean there's plenty of space for that too. But but they have a huge regulatory role because they are Space, whatever it happens to be. So, for example, building a Lego set, let's just say, as an example, um, they are a space that's firstly very familiar.

Which obviously helps because it's, you know, that safety and predictability um that we often talk about. Um it's but it also allows us into that flow The autistic people in my opinion. and need in their lives to be able to truly thrive. It's it's like autistic brains are set up to want to be in that flow. It's like that's it's almost like a just a natural expectation. That's what our brains want to do. And if we're able to, then that's where

If we're not able to, then we will struggle. Of course, the idea of flow state is heavily part of the monotropism thing. I I don't want to go into in too much detail because I'm sure people know about it, but if you haven't come across monotropism, look it up. It's all about, you know, having a single point of focus and getting into that very positive flow state where you're just connected with the focus of your attention. Whatever it might be.

It feels right. It feels like how we it feels natural. I think for autistic people to be in that deeply engrossed in a thing. We are learning about Enjoying and maybe creating very frequently creating something or solving something, you know, as part of this. Uh But obviously autistic people aren't always allowed to get into that kind of state. You know, we're ripped from it too soon.

We're told to stop playing that now and do something else, or or um, oh you know, sorry, you can't finish writing this story now, you've got to go to maths, you know. Well you should have grown out of that by Yeah. Yeah. Why are you still talking about Thomas the Tank engine? What's wrong with You know, have you not grown up? And it's like, Well no.

I was interested when I was six and I'm still interested now. Why wouldn't I be? Like why wh why is it that apparently our interests have to go away? Like I I honest honestly, I swear it's a cool I swear that non-autistic adults have to force themselves to stop liking what they enjoyed as a kid for fear of mockery. I I genuinely believe that most of them, given half a chance, would love to get Into He Man or Ghostbusters or Holly Pocket or whatever they were into as kids, they just then.

Yeah. I remember I remember Laura Kirby coming on in season one and she was talking about um Dollhouses, how she, you know, that was one of her interests as as a child and how she'd reintroduced that back into her life once she got her diagnosis and how much joy, how much joy she got from dollhouses and um

It's like anything, isn't it? We we had an event um the other month, I think it was back in January online, and um we were hearing lots of of people's experiences and people were talking about their uh autistic yw'r pethau, yw'r pethau, yw'r pethau yw'r pethau yw'r pethau yw'r pethau yw'r pethau yw'r pethau yw'r pethau yw'r pethau yw'r pethau.

can talk for hours on um you know and and bring so much information and for a lot of the late discovered community what i've discovered in the podcast and through our circles is that for a lot of us we've

our interests and our passions have become our careers. You know, we have enveloped the thing that we are so interested in into our career and then it never really feels like work, but then you end up hitting burnout because You get into that monotropic flow of doing what you're so interested in. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd.

um you know life has to happen around all of that but you can get so consumed and so immersed into it. Um and that and that's a real challenge.

One of the questions we ask every single guest who comes on on Shopee is if you could go back to a younger version of you. a give yourself a compassionate message as the people that you are today and that you know about yourself today. What would you want to say to yourself? A compassionate message would you give to a younger version of people? I think it would have to be something along the lines of It's okay to be you would be a big one.

'Cause that was that was that was my team's you know, uh masking heavily. Picking up I you know, picking up from how other people are making that part of my mask, you know, to try to survive and and not come across as too weird or too different. Um having to deny my interests or or you know simply don't not use them anymore and try ones for such a long time and that did me so much harm, so pointless, so so needless. Um Ben Moore. You know, I could have carried on

teens and twenties rather than pretending that I didn't want to when I very much did. Uh but yeah, I I was I was swayed by by the the pressure of the world around. Um Yeah, I'd I don't I'd want to tell myself it's okay to be authentic. Okay. I mean, I say that. The thing is, it's it's awful to say that, isn't it? I mean, it's okay, you know, on my terms. But the fact is that all autistic people experience every day is that it's not okay.

That's why we mask, because it isn't okay at a societal level. Which I guess is why we're all here making podcasts, writing books. making videos, r creating memes, whatever it is we're doing to try to that because you know fundamentally we all know in this in the society we're in to be authentically autistic is not over

We will get punished for it, uh, we will get bullied for it, we will get treated very badly. And then of course, if we successfully mask and try to survive, we're then, you know, criticized for faking it. or or making it up or whatever, you know. We we we can't win. No can't and then it eventually catches up with us anyway at midlife. Um then we collect. Yeah, and hence the you know the high rate of of suicidality in um you know undiagnosed or late diagnosed or late discovered autistic people.

And what would you say then about what needs to change? Because just hearing you talk about your compassionate message to yourself... It's this thing, isn't it, that You didn't have this information about yourself when you were growing up. And it's very hard, isn't it? We we can look back on our lives and think how different our lives might have been. And you will talk to people who were diagnosed.

uh childhood and will say, you know, they it was something that they really struggled with because they had this this knowledge about themselves and it you know, kind of othered them from the very beginning and I don't ever everybody's experience is is very different. But you describing that, you know, had I have known this about myself and had somebody have said to me, um, you know, it's okay to be you Pete, it's okay to be the person that you are.

how different that would have been for you. And I and I just wonder then, there's a couple of questions I want to ask you before we kind of wrap our conversation up. I could speak to you all day, but we've uh we haven't got enough time. Who was your autistic role model? Um

Growing up, did you have an autistic role model? Did you know any autistic people? Um, or who is perhaps a role model for you now? Who who inspires you? You talked about some of the books that you'd read very early on in your discovery.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n Um, it's a good question. Yeah. I I mean growing up of course, I I I wasn't aware of I mean I say that. Now it's now I've discovered as so many of us do. Like a significant number of my school friends. have been diagnosed autistic. Um like my friend Craig, you know, we went to school Yeah. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

Every now and then, we know we keep in touch. Um and and he's got a diagnosis. You know, it's like, oh my word, you know, it's like we find each other somehow without even knowing that we're doing it. Um so so that's in

But of course back then neither of us had any idea, you know, none of us had any clue what the that that was a thing. It wasn't talked about in schools, it wasn't a word that I was even familiar with. I think the first time I came across it was probably the curious instance of the dog in the night. uh because that came out when i was about 17. Um because my dad's in the

So you know I read it and and I thought to myself, I remember thinking, you know, this Christopher guy doesn't really speak to me particularly. You know, I don't This person, a huge amount. Um, even though actually, now looking back, I can relate to him far far back. He's scientifically minded. He's not particularly creative.

very rigidly logical in a way that doesn't necessarily, you know, work for all autistic people. You know, he's a very he's like looking at the autism spectrum through a th through a You know, we're we're seeing that little bit of what it is to be autistic and we're missing all the other stuff. Um so yeah, growing up I didn't have much. I mean, looking back now. or the fictional characters for example or the people that I was around. my sister they're almost certainly neurodivergent.

But it's all retrospective. Mm. Um these days my my role models are those autistic people who are just cracking on, you know, soldiering on with this. I mean, you know, you're one of them. So Like I said earlier, you know, neurodivergent rebel. Uh and my mind's gone blank'cause I'm terrible with names. But all those autistic people are putting their their their lives on You know and being vulnerable. Their stories and their experiences.

Um, you know, Emily Katie has got a book coming out very soon, of course. Burn Brady wrote a book about her experience. And and just sharing, sharing, sharing. Because even though it puts us in a slightly vulnerable position like we It is it is improving. And you think about the generation, you know, for your daughter, for my daughter. Exactly.

For everybody else's children. This this is part of you know, kind of de trying to deconstruct some of those stereotypes and trying to put some of those role models out so that you know, when we ask our children when they become adults who their autistic role models are, that they've got so many people that they see themselves represented in and I think that's what what drives certainly drives me is knowing that

I want there to be some recognition. And what would you say then, a final question, Pete, about a myth or a stereotype? I mean, we've talked a lot, haven't we, in this conversation together about myths and stereotypes. But what's the stereotype that you would like to undermine or the myth that you'd like to undermine? Oh, there's so many, isn't there? There really is. I'm torn between the empathy. 'Cause I think that's And the um

Actually, you know what? Let's let's broaden it. I'm gonna say that the stereotype that I want to that I would want to see gone. That very narrow interpretation. is because that is in itself I think a stereotype. You know the the autistic people. Are very A particular You know they fit a particularly And and that that is autism, you know, and anything deviated

Can't possibly be. I think that would be the one. It's it's a bit more vague and a bit more uh floaty, but I think it would it would change the world because I think what we need to do is get the get ourselves into the position where society generally understands You know, that that that that term that is banded around so confidently by so many people who never seem to actually understand what it actually means, which is a

The vast variety of autistic experience. Yes, we have things in common that mean that we're autistic, of course, sensory differences. Physical health. Communicative culture. Such incredible And that anyone coming to the conversation with a very narrow view usually fed. They're okay. I think that is the thing that we need to change.

You talking about that peephole makes me think about um a kaleidoscope. You know, those kaleidoscopes we used to have as as kids. We'd look through the the little peephole, wouldn't we? And we we'd turn the kaleidoscope around and all the different variations of shapes and patterns and colours. That's that's exactly what you're describing there is is no the spectrum.

Is is not is not that we go from um being a little bit autistic to a lot autistic. It it is like picking up a kaleidoscope and looking through that people and seeing that you know there isn't one version. of autism. But it's it's so different, isn't it, in everybody that It's like if you imagine the world you know, the autist everything you see in front of you is the autistic population.

Oftentimes I feel like people are looking through a telescope and yeah, you know, they they've got something in their sights. and look at the... and recognise that there is a lot more Yeah, and even talking to you, Pete, which has been absolutely fascinating, and honestly, I could talk to you all day, but having somebody talking to another autistic person who likes to talk with a hand...

Yeah. Who likes to talk very visually and create visual um ideas and pictures to try Simplify something that is actually quite a a a a complex thing to get your head around in terms of um being able to explain that to people. And it and it really uh drives into that whole myth and stereotype, doesn't it, that autistic people don't don't like metaphors, so talking metaphors, don't they? Yes.

You're somebody, I'm somebody who loves to talk in metaphors, who loves to create that imagery. And I think it's such a strength and such a skill. To be to be able to create such a visual imagery in your head and bring that outside of your head. in into words for other people to see what what you're seeing. And I think Yn, yn ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod ystod.

Rydw i'n gweld yw'n gweld yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw. Yeah, very early stages, you know, I've I've been so overwhelmed this last year. But yeah, that that is that is happening. this space. So when your third book comes out, Pete, we'd love to get you back on the podcast and talk about this third book, which I don't know what it's about. Um Ha ha ha. so thank you Thank you very much.